May 23, 2003

Y Chromosomes in Altai-Sayan

There are many interesting points in this article. The main one that I would like to emphasize at the moment is the striking difference in Caucasoid markers in mtDNA and Y chromosomes of the Altai-Sayan peoples. This is some good evidence for the scenario that I proposed previously

Polymorphism of the Y-Chromosome Diallelic Loci in Ethnic Groups of the Altai-Sayan Region
Russian Journal of Genetics 38(3): 309-314; Mar 2002

M. V. Derenko et al.

Abstract

Using the data on five diallellic Y-chromosome loci (DYS199, 92R7, SRY1532, RBF5, and DYS287) polymorphism, genetic structures of the five Turkic-speaking ethnic groups of the Altai-Sayan upland (Tuvinians, Sojots, Shorians, Khakassians, and Southern Altaians (Altai-Kizhi), were described. The gene pools of the populations examined were characterized by the presence of pronounced paleo-Caucasoid component (92R7-T-lineages). The frequency of this component increased westward, reaching more than 70% in Shorians and Southern Altaians. Haplotype TAT-C (RBF5 locus) was observed in all populations, except Shorians, with the frequencies varying from 5.4% in Altai-Kizhi to 18.8% in Khakassians. The Alu-insertion in the DYS287 locus was revealed only in the Altaian sample with the frequency of 3.3%. It was established that the Altai-Sayan populations studied split into two statistically significantly different groups. One of the groups was represented by Tuvinians, Sojots, and Khakassians, while another one was comprised of Shorians and Altaians.

...

Ethnic groups of the Altai-Sayan region are different
in respect of their anthropological features, though
they share the prevalence of Turkic language and culture
in their genesis. The formation of the indigenous
anthropological type of the Altai-Sayan upland is
traced back to the Neolithic and characterized by
intense admixture of the European and Mongoloid
groups. In most indigenous people of the region,
namely, Southern Altaians, Tuvinians from the steppe
regions, and some groups of Khakassians, the most
Mongoloid, Central Asian type prevails. This type is a
complex racial genetic structure, the origin of which
traces back to the Mongoloid groups that underwent
admixture at different periods of time (from the ancient
times to the late Middle Ages). In respect of their
anthropologic features, Shorians along with some
Ugric and Samoyed peoples are typical representatives
of the Uralic race. The features of the Uralic race, occupying
intermediate position between large Mongoloid
and Caucasoid races, can be also observed among
Northern Altaians and some of the Khakassian groups
[1-3].

...

altai-sayan.jpg

...

Haplotype 3, defined by the TAT-C allele and found
in 14.6% of Tuvinians, 5.4% of Altaians, 11.8% of
Sojots, and 18.8% of Khakassians, cannot be unambiguously
attributed to either Mongoloid or Caucasoid lineages.
It is established that TAT-C allele of the RBF5
locus is distributed predominantly in Northern Eurasia.
Maximum frequencies of this allele were observed in
Yakuts (86%), Buryats from Mongolia (52%), and also
in such Finno-Ugric peoples as Finns (61%), Estonians
(37%), and Maris (33%) [12, 17]. The TAT-C allele was
also found in populations of the Volga-Ural region with
the frequencies varying from 9% in Mordovians to 68%
in Udmurts [26]. Zerial et al. suggested that this mutation
first arose in the populations of Asia and then dispersed
over the territory of Northern Europe reaching
Finland, which can indicate substantial genetic contribution
of Mongoloids to the development of Northern
European peoples [17]. These authors also advanced an
alternative hypothesis concerning the origin of the TAT-C
allele. Specifically, high frequency of the ancestral, in
respect of the TAT-C allele, Y-chromosome variant
LLY22g-A (17%) revealed in Maris is considered to be
the evidence of the emergence of the TAT-C allele in
this particular population [12]. The presence of the
TAT-C allele in the Russian gene pool with frequencies
varying from 15 to 21% is explained by the presence of
considerable proportion of the Finno-Ugric and/or
Turkic admixture in the modern Russians [17, 27].

Since in Tuvinians the tribe attribution is determined
down the male lineage, it is thus possible to correlate
the information on the origin of certain tribal groups
with the Y-chromosome variants. For instance, the carriers
of the TAT-C allele in Tuvinian population are the
representatives of the Irgit tribe. This allele was found
in the five of six members of the tribe examined. In
addition, this allele is a marker for Y chromosomes in
the representatives of three other tribes, namely, the
Turkic by its origin Oorzhak tribe and two Mongolian
tribes (Salchak and Mongush). Thereby, TAT-C haplotype
in the Tuvinian gene pool may be either of Turkic,
or of Mongolian descent. Some authors also suggest the
Samoyedic origin of the Irgit tribe [28]. This in turn can
serve as a confirmation of the Finno-Ugric origin of the
TAT-C allele. The use of a combined approach based on
the analysis of Y-chromosome diallelic and microsatellite
loci variation along with the inclusion in the analysis
of other Turkic and Finno-Ugric populations would
provide detailed estimation of the contributions of different
by the descent components to the gene pool of
the present-day population of the region examined.

Posted by Dienekes at May 23, 2003 07:26 PM | PermaLink
Comments

Whether or not events resembling your scenario actually took place is far more relevant in Central Europe and Greece, where the partially Mongoloid invaders were absorbed into the indegenous population, rather than Russia, where they remain to this day, ethnogenetic isolates.

Posted by: Prodigal Son at May 23, 2003 09:11 PM

Haplotype 3, defined by the TAT-C allele and found
in 14.6% of Tuvinians, 5.4% of Altaians, 11.8% of
Sojots, and 18.8% of Khakassians, cannot be unambiguously
attributed to either Mongoloid or Caucasoid lineages.

Precisely what I have been saying. Tat-C lineages among Finns, Estonians and NW Russian are Caucasoid, the ones in Russians of the Volga region are Mongoloid.

Posted by: Prodigal Son at May 23, 2003 09:21 PM

>> Precisely what I have been saying. Tat-C lineages among Finns, Estonians and NW Russian are Caucasoid, the ones in Russians of the Volga region are Mongoloid.

Tat-C arose in a single population, either in prehistoric Siberia or in the Mongolia/China area. The prehistoric populations that brought it to Europe were either Mongoloid or racially hybrid (mixed Europeoid/Mongoloid). I will post the conclusions of the palaeoanthropological researches of Valery Alexeev for Siberia very soon.

Posted by: Dienekes at May 23, 2003 09:33 PM

>> Whether or not events resembling your scenario actually took place is far more relevant in Central Europe and Greece, where the partially Mongoloid invaders were absorbed into the indegenous population, rather than Russia, where they remain to this day, ethnogenetic isolates.

Your various statements ought to be backed up by some facts, either from genetics or physical anthropology. There is no Mongoloid element identified in the modern Greek population.

Posted by: Dienekes at May 23, 2003 09:40 PM

>Tat-C arose in a single population, either in >prehistoric Siberia or in the Mongolia/China area

HG12/16 arose in the single populaton of Eastern Europe/Western Siberia (and surely not in Mongolia/China) in the time when the region was Caucasoid.

>The prehistoric populations that brought it to >Europe were either Mongoloid or racially hybrid
>(mixed Europeoid/Mongoloid). I will post the

There was no need to bring it to Europe. It was already there.

>conclusions of the palaeoanthropological >researches of Valery Alexeev for Siberia very >soon.

Good :D I alwayds thought you're of great help. Your recent post that affirmed that HG12 arose in EE was very interesting :-)

Posted by: EGR at May 26, 2003 12:52 AM

Prodigal Son claims, "Whether or not events resembling your scenario actually took place is far more relevant in Central Europe and Greece, where the partially Mongoloid invaders were absorbed into the indegenous population, rather than Russia, where they remain to this day, ethnogenetic isolates."

The Russians, and not the Greeks, absorbed Mongoloid. Just look at Yeltsin's slant eyes, and your own.

You are a typical Asiatic alien ranting on a forum created by an intelligent European.

When the Western world becomes White again, Asiatics like you will be expelled.

Posted by: Tronder Nationalist at November 21, 2003 07:38 PM

are we to say finns and russians are partly of mongoloid descent

Posted by: walter at May 11, 2004 10:56 AM