 |
|
 |
|
This is our Old forum. All new postings added using the 'Create Topic' link will go onto the new forum |
|
| This forum is now closed for replies Back To Forum Index |
| Paul Bendall: (21/11/05) | Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Okay I am getting confused, I have a 8 year old house which I would like to make even better insulated as I make improvements. I have read an article saying that the plasterboard fixing are now not recommended because of the low thermal mass?
Obviously I have a lot of plasterboard in this age of house. So I was thinking of improving the insulation in the walls between rooms. Is this the best way to go? If a replaced with say batts or sheep wool would this improve insulation. Should I be looking to improve thermal mass, is one exclusive of the other? Any help is appreciated Paul | |
| Paul: (23/11/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Anyone got any thoughts? Keith? | |
| david hyde: (23/11/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Your partition walls are presumably timber frame with plasterboard finish. Good builders would insulate between rooms but this is not always the case. If they have not insulated them then you may find that the timber members are quite slim and removing the plasterboard, insulating then refitting plasterboard may give you some problems. If you do attempt this I would strongly recommend screwing the sheets back not nailing.
Plasterboard probably has reasonable thermal mass ie the amount of heat held by a specific volume of material. However, you don't have very much of it as it is only 9 or 12mm thick. If you are looking for thermal mass, which will reduce temperature fluctuations in a house, your starting point would be a 100mm solid brick or block wall. Good insulating materials have lots of air locked in therefore are low density therefore low thermal mass. Insulating blocks (Thermalite) are probably mid way between good insulation and good thermal mass. Hope this helps. | |
| Meredith Bowles: (07/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Here's some clarification:
Insulation is used either for acoustic or thermal properties. Adding thermal insulation to the house will improve heat retention so your heating bills will be less. This has to be done on the outside walls. Acoustic insulation improves the sound separation between different rooms and goes in the internal walls/floors. The thermal mass issue is connected to both, but primarily to the thermal performance of the house. Adding thermal mass- ie materials of a high specific heat capacity, that are able to absorb and then emit large quanitities of energy- will help the building retain its warnth in the winter and 'coolth' in the summer. This is best achieved if the original house had internal walls made of block. Retrospectively this can be achieved by increasing the plasterboard layers on the internal walls. Not as good but will still increase capacity- or laying ceramic tiles on the ground floor instead of carpets. More thermal mass also generally means better acoustic performance too. Hope that helps | |
| Paul: (07/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Thanks Meredith that makes things easier to understand. I am sure I will be asking more q's nearer the time. | |
| Konrad Fischer: (08/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Some additional remarks to thermal insulation:
The lightweight thermal insulation is only able to diminuish the thermal flux by direct contact, f.e. when you give your hand on the material. A steel board and a polystyrene board both with room temperature will take more or less warmth from the contacting hand. But in the wall about 99% of thermal flux is caused by IR-radiation: Photones/Phonones will transport the energy through. And here only solid and dense materials with high 'thermal mass' can hinder the flux. We have proved this by experiment (Lichtenfelser Experiment) and by comparing of identical buildings with and without lightweight thermal insulation. Result: There is no energy saving by lightweighters at all. You can find more details on konrad-fischer-info.de/7mould.htm | |
| Stephen: (23/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Hi,
Example: We are building a house with a high thermal mass floor and north walls. On the south elevation their are large windows. The high thermal mass walls/floors store the heat from the sun throughout the summer and release it back in winter like a massive storage heater. The top floor walls and roof are heavily insulated to prevent the released heat from escaping. Sort of like good boots and a woolly hat. Any help? | |
| tony cowling: (23/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Insulation is what helps stop heat escaping from your house. this process is inevitable and can only be slowed down to a greater or lesser extent by insulations
Thermal mass is a measure of the ability of a building to store heat within its insulating emvolope. The more that you can store the more comfortable you will be. Probably your home will cool overnight to seven degrees on cold nights even tho it is well insulated compare this to a victorian terraced house where the temperature never falls below 14. where would you rather live ? Thermal mass is very important as it provides thermal stability - when the heating goes off the house stays warm for longer. At best even this is only for a few days and not from summer to winter as some segest tho this can be achieved by building into a mountain-side or having a massive burried thermal store. I agree with the idea that identically insulated homes will both loose the same ammount of heat of course they will! but this misses the point the one with the higher thermal mass will be more comfortable to live in. The government only wants to save carbon and so has apears to have no interest in out comfort thus way too little attention is being paid to thermal mass. you will achieve nothing be putting insulation inside internal walls. possibly if your house is dry lined with dots and dabs you may have air leakage problems which outweigh the aboue in order of importancein terms of must do things to improve comfort and reduce heating bills tony | |
| Biff: (23/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| "The high thermal mass walls/floors store the heat from the sun throughout the summer and release it back in winter like a massive storage heater."
I can see this working on a timescale of a day or three, but summer to winter? Really? Just how big is your thermal mass? The biggest thermal mass near a house is the ground. This is warmed by the sun and may stay at around 10 degrees a few feet down in the winter but you need a heat pump to make much use of this. | |
| Graham: (27/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Paul, if your house is only 8 years old and the builders are still solvent then they should be able to tell you what level of insulation has been fitted and you can then decide whether it will be cost effective to fit more. Have you looked it the loft?
It is probably of a lightweight construction - quick to heat up and quick to cool down. But you mentioned the walls between the rooms. Most heat is lost to external surfaces, ie from the outside walls and roof. I don't know that there would be much point in increasing insulation between rooms considering the amount of disruption this would create, eg destroying the plasterboard, skirtings, removing electrical fittings etc and then redecorating. | |
| Paul: (27/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Graham,
The house was constructed by McLean homes who I believe have been swallowed up by another company. I am trying to get an idea of what is best to do when we start redecorating, although I am getting very confused over insulation, thermal mass, draughts, ventillation, etc, etc. I think the current house is quite well constructed, i.e double glazed, draught seals on all external doors and windows. No draught excluders on the door that leads into the integral garage which I find very strange. Anyway back to the subject. I am thinking of replacing the downstairs radiators with thermawall from Construction Resources. Then I can run a UFH heating system and reduce the water temperature in the heating system. Anyway this would mean removing the existing plasterboard so I would have the opportunity to increase / change any insulation. Paul | |
| tony cowling: (29/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| most likely your house is dry lined and if u do the socket test u will propably be horified--- try putting your cheek near to an electrical socket outlet on an outside wall --- feel a draught?...
| |
| Paul: (30/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| So what should I do? Improve the insulation to the external walls and seal around electrical sockets, skirting, floor? Improve the thermal mass of the internal walls? How do I do this? I am trying to learn now so when I come to it I can do everything together.
Many thanks, Paul | |
| tony cowling: (31/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| not so easy question to answer --- i d sue nhbc! -- for draughty house
in order of priority u probably have ok thermal mass but because of the dry lining on windy days u are almost living in a tent -- the wind can blow arround behind the plasterboard linings on the outside walls and under the floor too making insulation pointless and the majority of your thermal mass is outside of the plasterboard linings Number one job is to stop this happening - may be remove linings and wet plaster and seal up between the floor and ceiling. BRE had your problem when they tried to build an air tight house and it took them many days with a foam gun to seal the walls - i still dont think that would really work very well and they had an air testing rig on site to help them or move house is easier! you dont need to improve the insulation i wouldnt worry about UFH that is prety major - nice but major and capital costs would far outweigh savings and the reduced water temperature wont save anything air tight or not. i would not be too downhearted i make it sound worse than it is and at least u have a house many dont and plenty of them are happy! | |
| Graham: (31/12/05) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| Insulate if not already insulated. Forget about thermal mass as that's major structural work. Why not add a conservatory to capture the sun?
I'm wondering why you want to spend a lot of money on a house which isn't very old. It can't be that bad at 8 years. If you're going to move in a few years it's wasted money. Why not move to a renovation project or build your own? | |
| Paul: (01/01/06) | RE: Insulation v thermal mass same or different? |
| All,
Thank you for the information. I am looking to improve the house where ever possible as we move through it adding our own touches. I just wanted to know what could be done. I am thinking of a possible garden room in years to come. It is very interesting moving into a new house and becoming aware of energy efficiency. For example the living room has a bay area. The radiator is located in the bay and the previous owner had full length curtains to the front of the bay. So as it stands the radiator just heats the bay and window and not the room. I have turned the radiator off until we get round to changing the curtains / layout. The room has another radiator and is more than warm enough most evenings with the TV on, laptop and humans. | |
| Reply To This Topic Back To Forum Index | You Are On Page: 1/1 |
 |
||
 |
||
| Logout | ||
| © Green Building Press |
||
 |
||
 |
||
