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The Order of the Stick A forum for discussion of Rich Burlew's stick figure fantasy webcomic.

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Old 07-09-2004, 02:33 AM   #1
Prince_Stefano
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Default Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

How many of us side with Durkon on this thing about Helgya and her marriage? How many with Helgya? Why?

I think Durkon's right. Without rules (silly as they may SEEM) society would be nonexistant. And I... ahem.... anarchy would rule.
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Old 07-09-2004, 03:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Helgya.

People are going to come here from TWC and Buzzcomix and expect hot Dwarf on dwarf action. I hate for them to have to settle for hillarious comedy instead of the animated sex they crave.
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Are you sure this sort of thing (the talk of morality) is appropriate?
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Old 07-09-2004, 12:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

It's OK, as long as you don't get too far into real-world politics or religion.

I deliberately tried to make both points of view fairly sympathetic, to make y'all think. :)
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Old 07-09-2004, 01:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

What did thinking ever do for me? ::)

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Old 07-09-2004, 01:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I agree with Helgya, because she's female, and therefore right. ;D

Seriously though, I do agree with her. I'd much rather be happy than right anyday. (I expect someone to get that reference...)
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Old 07-09-2004, 02:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I tend to side with Durkon, although I don't actually agree with his reasoning. Just because it was a crossbow wedding is no reason to hate the guy, or to try to kill the guy either.

(Of course technically Helgya might be able to argue for a dwarven annullment, since he was not married of her own free will, her "vows" are meaningless. Yet this is no excuse for her actions after the marriage. You don't run away from your troubles, and you don't poison your troubles away, you face them head on, even if it means you have to live with them, and not be happy.)
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Old 07-09-2004, 02:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpina
I agree with Helgya, because she's female, and therefore right. ;D

Seriously though, I do agree with her. I'd much rather be happy than right anyday. (I expect someone to get that reference...)
Doesn't that mean you'd rather be happy than Female?
Seeing as female makes her right and all lol.

I side with Durkon because he choose his oath rather than chaotic lawbreaking.
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Old 07-09-2004, 03:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck_II
Doesn't that mean you'd rather be happy than Female?
Seeing as female makes her right *and all lol.
It's at this point all the men with an ounce of self preservation take a step away from you and pretend they don't know you. :)
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Old 07-09-2004, 03:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I'm taking two steps, just to be sure. :o
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Being un-female would make me unhappy...I mean I don't want to have to deal with all those male problems...
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I've seen childbirth - I'll take male problems over female "problems" any day of the week! ;D
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zherog
I've seen childbirth - I'll take male problems over female "problems" any day of the week! ;D
Childbirth isn't mandatory, yo ;)

*praises the Goddess of birth control*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpina
I agree with Helgya, because she's female, and therefore right. ;D

Seriously though, I do agree with her. I'd much rather be happy than right anyday. (I expect someone to get that reference...)

Isn't that from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Someone (Either Marvin or Arthur. It's been too long since I've read it) says they'd rather be happy than right, but the plan has failed because they're neither happy nor right. *puts on her geek hat*


And I feel bad for both of them. Frankly, I don't think Thor sets much of a good example with his wining and wenching, so why should Durkon be so hung up about it? Unless, of course, he seceretly disapproves of his god's behaviour ;)


Out of all them, though, I think Ivan got the roughest deal. From what little we saw of him, he seemed to be sweet and caring despite being married at crossbow-point, but Helgya was determined for it not to work. If she'd have given him a chance I think she might have liked him a lot, but as far as I can see she was just mad at her clan for making her marry against her will, and took it all out on poor old Ivan.
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpina
I'd much rather be happy than right anyday. (I expect someone to get that reference...)
Dr. Phil

In this instance I don't think there is a right or a wrong. This is more on the lawful/chaotic axis. :P
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Old 07-09-2004, 04:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I'm not taking any sides, yet.

Perhaps in dwarven society, all marriages are expected to end in death. Murder may be a much lesser crime than vow-breaking.

When Hilgya told Durkon about her attempts to poison her husband, it didn't seem like she expected him to react with anything but sympathy. In fact, he reacted more strongly to the fact that she left her husband than that she tried to kill him.

I wonder if the words and actions of the husband were supposed to illustrate how Hilgya told the story, or what really happened, or if it was Durkon's mental picture of it all.
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Old 07-09-2004, 05:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizkyu
Isn't that from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Someone (Either Marvin or Arthur. It's been too long since I've read it) says they'd rather be happy than right, but the plan has failed because they're neither happy nor right. *puts on her geek hat*
Actually its Slartibartfast, I think.
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Old 07-09-2004, 08:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Nah, I think Durkon was hesitant to comment on the fact that she'd tried to poison her husband. I mean, if YOU were alone with someone who'd just confessed to attempted murder, would YOU confront her with it? Better part of valor... even for a dwarf.
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Old 07-09-2004, 09:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I'd take out my mace but yes I would confront her. Strange he went unarmed into conversation.
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Old 07-11-2004, 02:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpina

Actually its Slartibartfast, I think.
Er, you may well be right. I lent somebody my copy of the Guide a while back, and haven't seen it since :-[
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Old 07-12-2004, 12:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

You know, I really can't reconcile Dwarves' Lawfulness and worshipping Thor.

Thor was as Chaotic as Loki at times, and he was never anything that could be considered Lawful. I'm guessing that this is Forgotten Realms?...

I just don't get why they don't use Moradin the Dwarf-Father, from GH. Or someone similar. Thor dosen't match dwarves in any respect except that he carried a big hammer and wore a hat with horns. Was that the ONLY criteria cited by the morons who decided instead of making up their own religion for their game settings' peoples, or using those from existing settings, that they'd start stealing ill-fitting at best Human religious figures and having dwarves and elves worship them?

At best, Thor, from the Nordic legends, could range pretty much any non-evil alignment, and he was usually towards the neutral on the L-C axis. He was more towards the G than N on the G-E axis, but he could have his moments...

But with all the wining and whoring and racous behavior and all that crap, he can HARDLY be considered a bastion of Law...

All that said, I think I'd side with Helgya, except that Ivan seemed to be nice enough. If he was a sterotypical "Bubba" wife-beater, I'd be behind her wholeheartedly, but if his only crime was overkindness, she shoulden't have tried to poison him. If she really was sickened by him, I don't blame her for leaving him, and I DO blame Durkon for being mad at her over it.
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Old 07-12-2004, 02:25 AM   #21
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDragon8685
You know, I really can't reconcile Dwarves' Lawfulness and worshipping Thor.
Maybe because you are worrying too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDragon8685
Thor was as Chaotic as Loki at times, and he was never anything that could be considered Lawful. I'm guessing that this is Forgotten Realms?...
No, it's what I made up. Thor doesn't exist in Forgotten Realms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDragon8685
I just don't get why they don't use Moradin the Dwarf-Father, from GH. Or someone similar.
All such figures are copyrighted by WOTC. Further, "they" (which is me, in this case) did not want to spend even ONE panel explaining who the god was, what he believed in, etc. By using Thor, I got the main point across as soon as I said his name: a Nordic-style battle god. That was what was important.

Would "What Would Moradin Do?" be funny? No. Because even I don't know who Moradin is, much less the public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDragon8685
Thor dosen't match dwarves in any respect except that he carried a big hammer and wore a hat with horns.
Yes, exactly. More to the point, everyone knows who Thor is, even if they haven't read D&D books for years. So I picked Thor because he had a big hammer and wore a hat with horns. That is all the internal logic I required when choosing, because I don't care about the things you apparently care about, like whether the alignment printed in the D&D book for Thor was 100% appropriate, or what the long-dead people who invented Thor portrayed him as. Those things are utterly irrelevent. I care more about the Marvel Comics version of Thor than I do about what is printed in Deities & Demigods.

In the OOTS world, Thor behaves exactly as I say he does, and no other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDragon8685
Was that the ONLY criteria cited by the morons who decided instead of making up their own religion for their game settings' peoples, or using those from existing settings, that they'd start stealing ill-fitting at best Human religious figures and having dwarves and elves worship them?
Ahem. *I* decided that Durkon worshipped Thor. I (and only I) decided dwarves worshipped the Norse gods. I didn't take it from any existing game setting. So you just called me a moron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowDragon8685
At best, Thor, from the Nordic legends, could range pretty much any non-evil alignment, and he was usually towards the neutral on the L-C axis. He was more towards the G than N on the G-E axis, but he could have his moments...

But with all the wining and whoring and racous behavior and all that crap, he can HARDLY be considered a bastion of Law...
So what? I don't care. Until I reference Nordic legends in the strip, those legends don't exist.

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Old 07-12-2004, 02:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Might I interfere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
In the OOTS world, Thor behaves exactly as I say he does, and no other way.
So he rules at the speed of plot...? ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Ahem. *I* decided that Durkon worshipped Thor. I (and only I) decided dwarves worshipped the Norse gods. I didn't take it from any existing game setting. So you just called me a moron.
That's IMHO not really true. In fact, he would have called anyone using Thor as a dwarven deity in a roleplaying game a moron, if that were to happen. I don't think he would have called a comic author using Thor as a dwarven deity for reasons of understanding and plausibility... because all of ShadowDragons reasons for doing so don't fit into this case. It's just a different setting, I think.

Sorry for interrupting you and speaking in your name, Shadowdragon.

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Old 07-12-2004, 04:10 AM   #23
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Terandir is quite correct. I did not call you, the Giant, a moron.

(I'd also like to note that, in a very silly way, I got FR and whichever other setting used Thor as a god mixed up.)

I called the creators of that publicized setting morons.
And, though it bears no relavance, I'd like to say that anyone affiliated with DC comics, are also morons. (Unless, through some inexpliciable reason, The Giant is also affiliated with DC Comics. In which case I'd like to note that the Giant is the sole exception.)


And since you're not using Thor, God of the Norse, but Thor, God in the OotS Pantheon, who just happens to resemble Thor, God of the Norse, because the former is convienantly uncopyrightable, whereas Moradin is, that explains everything. :)
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Old 07-12-2004, 02:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Durkon all the way.

But only because they're dwarves.

And it isn't a crossbow wedding, it's an arranged mariage. It's quite different (Helgya definately wouldn't have any grounds under Dwarven law for annulment because she was forced into the wedding).
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Old 07-12-2004, 10:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Did you not see the crossbow Helgya's father was holding at her back!?

I call that a crossbow wedding.
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Old 07-13-2004, 05:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Really, I can't understand why a dwarf with a bad scotts accent worshiping a Norse deity is somthing people apparently have problems with. ;D

Considering that the first character I ever played, way back in 1980, a little over 24 years ago, was ... yes a cleric of Thor, I find Durkon's choice perfectly fitting.

And I don't care which flavor of Thor he is. Just as long as Elan doesn't start singing ...

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Old 07-13-2004, 06:03 PM   #27
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

I have to side Helgya because seriously, caring about what a bunch of corpses think about your love life is bordering on insanity.

However, Durkon has some very good reasons to get the hell out of the relationship, (self preservation being one), they're just not the reason's he talks about.

On a side note: It's the Americans who have the unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness, not humans. It's not that I object to the humans in the world of OotS having said right. I just find it interesting to see the reference to an American constitutional right, in a fantasy game setting. Err, comic setting that is.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:41 AM   #28
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

who to side with..hmmm...Kill 'em all! Let Thor and Loki sort 'em out! ;D
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Old 07-14-2004, 11:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xa0s
On a side note: *It's the Americans who have the unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness, not humans. *It's not that I object to the humans in the world of OotS having said right. *I just find it interesting to see the reference to an American constitutional right, in a fantasy game setting. *Err, comic setting that is.
Umm, no. The "inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness" is from the Declaration of Independence, not the U.S. Constitution. It is not a constitutional anything and is, in fact, not at all guaranteed under US law. The Declaration of Independence is largely a statement of principle, wholly separate from the documents that make up the rule of the USA. The writer (Jefferson) specifically states that he believes that ALL humans have the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is more of a philosophical quote than it is any kind of law.
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Old 07-14-2004, 02:10 PM   #30
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Default Re: Durkon's Stuffy Old Rules

Yes but Jefferson basically argued that these rights are in fact given by the creator and that governments are built in order to secure these rights, and when they don't we have every right to bash the rullers on the heads and make up a new one.

So while technically not directly in the Constitution, they are definitely a part of the law of the land. Note that you have the right to "presue" happiness. It doesn't mean happiness has to let you catch her. You don't have the right to be happy.
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