Damian Thompson is a leader writer for the Daily Telegraph and editor-in-chief of a major Catholic newspaper. He is the author of Counterknowledge: How we surrendered to conspiracy theories, quack medicine, bogus science and fake history.

Libraries stocking Islamic hate books

Posted by Damian Thompson on 06 Sep 2007  at 08:52 
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We owe the new Centre for Social Cohesion a debt of gratitude for exposing the disgusting willingness of British public libraries to stock Jew-baiting Islamic hate literature.

Muslim protestors
It's getting harder to tell the militants from the moderates

For years, politically correct local government has collaborated with Islamofascists in the creation of Muslim ghettos in northern cities, and in allowing colleges of further education to circulate anti-Semitic propaganda.

Tower Hamlets used to be a stronghold of the BNP. Now its libraries promote a different – and even more dangerous – form of fascism, as revealed in the report “Hate on the State”, by the Centre for Social Cohesion’s senior fellow James Brandon and its director, Douglas Murray.

I know and admire Douglas. He is emerging as an important public intellectual, and he’s still in his 20s. But his youthfulness shouldn’t surprise us. It is people of his generation who recognise the major threat to social cohesion in this country: Islam.

I know I should say “militant” Islam, but to be honest I’m finding it increasingly difficult to tell the difference between the militants and the moderates.

Anyway, next time a suicide murderer blows himself up, at least the police will know what clue to look for: a Tower Hamlets library card.

130 comments

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Nicholas Gascoine's avatar

Some thoughts

Nicholas Gascoine 06 Sep 2007 09:24

ONE: Is this any different from libraries carrying (as they used to) copies of "The Communist Manifesto" & "Mein Kampf"?

TWO: DON'T shoot the messenger - at least this helps us know what they are doing and emoting, since actually "Thinking" is not on their agenda).

THREE: Don't ban them - again it is easier to keep them under observation. This is why the vile Hzb-ut-Tahrir should be left to continue, under careful observation.

FOUR: Remember that by "Western" standards islam is, according to its own holy book a misogynistic, medieaval, cruel and intolerant religion.

But then, it IS a religion, so one should not actually expect anything better, should you?

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Bridget's avatar

Quote from

Bridget 06 Sep 2007 09:29

the Telegraph website this morning:

'Inayat Bunglawala, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain and a Government adviser, said: "These are authors who are widely read in the Muslim world and it is not surprising that they are stocked in areas where there happens to be the highest concentration of Muslims," he said.
"It does not necessarily mean you agree with them, it is part of a free society." '

So there is a demand for books by Abu Hamza et al because people are critiquing them in their spare time? Doubt it somehow.

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Bridget's avatar

Just a thought

Bridget 06 Sep 2007 09:53

I wonder how many of our public libraries stock the works of David Irving.

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Quietzapple's avatar

Peter Griffith MP

Quietzapple 06 Sep 2007 10:54

I rememberbuying a second hand copy of a book on Immigration by the 1964 victor of Smethwick, whose campaign was marked by the slogan "If you want a nigger neighbour, Vote Labour" so as to remove his pernicious influence from whomever might have bought it.

I doubt I did any good at all.

If these books are not covered by the Race Realtioons Act etc then we have no direct resource without becoming visibly hypocritical.

Will we also ban the Bible, Bulldog Drummond, Shaw, Hitler? All of these can be taken to incite racial hatred to some extent.

However we must assert our pluralist and largely liberal society against the islamo-fascist and other enemies of liberty by all means appropiate: military, diplomatic, political and social.

Gordon Brown has wisely taken the lead in this, and it is greatly to his credit that he has done so, without any likely political recompense I suspect.

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susanx's avatar

don't ban them

susanx 06 Sep 2007 10:58

they need to be read at school. We need to wake people up!

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irenelancaster's avatar

Tolerance is great and worthy of respect, but not when it leads to appeasement

irenelancaster 06 Sep 2007 11:13

What a depressing lot of comments. The reality is, however, as Damien has described it.

In the 1990s, under pressure from an 'extreme' Muslim group, Manchester LEA banned the word 'Israel' from being used in its school system.

This ban meant that in RE lessons covering, for instance, the Exodus of the Children of I--l from Egypt and geography of the Middle East, new ways of describing these parts of the syllabus had to be found.

More recently, it is apparent that posters on this blog have not read the words of the very non-Jewish Denis McShane MP and the equally non-Jewish John Mann MP (who doesn't even have any Jews in his constitutency). These two MPs state that there now a war against the Jewish community of Great Britain.

It will certainly not finish there, as 7/7 and more recent events in London and Glasgow have demonstrated.

As long ago as 20 years ago, Muslim children were advocating sharia law for all in the class-room. This was not just a theological/philosophical discussion of medieval norms, but what the pupils considered as the obvious conclusion to their growing numbers in Britain.

I wonder when sharia law will be implemented: in 10 years, 20 years....?

What people have to ask themselves is if they really want Saudi Arabian norms in Medway, Dorset and Todmorden.

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Quietzapple's avatar

Panic

Quietzapple 06 Sep 2007 12:04

is truly depressing.

We are to win this, the islamo-fascists are deluded in many ways, not least the view that they will outbred us.

The IRA peddled the same view in N Ireland.

Right or wrong both cutures are becoming diluted.

I share a flat with two muslims and others. Lost of very young muslims visit, they smoke and some drink.

Twenty-five years ago I supervised a punchroom. One of the girls agreed an arranged muslim marriage. But she wasn't accepting various other aspects of their culture she told me.

Listen to their pop music, and compare to tarditional Iranian folk music for example. Look at the pics of msulims online, chat with them . . .

On another newspaper forum I amused a muslim when I said that I was glad they have iPods in Iran. (the young British sailor had complained that the Iranian Rev Guard had taken his)

"of course we do!" I ws told.

The point is that the more of western cultures, inc gizmos they absorb, the less is their danger to us.

I am not poo - pooing the real dangers they pose. Or suggesting we should not appose them as I suggested earlier, but . . .

DON'T PANIC!

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Merrick's avatar

Islamic fanaticism

Merrick 06 Sep 2007 12:52

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War 2 owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. "Very few people were true Nazis", he said, "but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it,
they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. and I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories."

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of the shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour- kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously approve the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia comprised Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet
the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population - it was peaceful as well; but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The average Japanese individual prior to World War 2 was not a war-mongering sadist. Yet Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be
said that the majority of Rwandans were "peace loving"?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our
powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold; we must pay attention to the only group
that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

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Damian's avatar

Merrick

Damian 06 Sep 2007 13:30

Your argument is brilliantly put - I urge everyone to read it.

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susanx's avatar

Quietzapple

susanx 06 Sep 2007 13:39

Quietzapple, see how much "diluted" the non-muslim population are in the middle east, south east asia, THEY DISAPPEARED, THEY DIED, THEY HAVE BEEN DEPORTED! I am not paniking, I eagerly wait until people like yourself understand it the hard way (and the hardest way possible).

Your muslim roomates, they can drink and smoke as much as they want. If commands arrive, they will obey. Be sure about it.

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Guangzhou's avatar

I'm with Quietzapple

Guangzhou 06 Sep 2007 14:04

Some people get so hysterical, I love the way they generalise about such a huge range of people - sweeping statements backed up by no evidence (at least that any intelligent person would class as evidence).

I really wonder how many of these people have actually met any Muslims or grown up with them.

I know I'm hitting my head against a brick wall here, you're all too intent on believing in a clash of civilisations

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Madasafish's avatar

Reverse Encounter

Madasafish 06 Sep 2007 14:04

Lets think of a Muslim country which allows the Bible in libaraies, Christian Churches to open, people to convert Muslims to Christianity and (say) a few Evangelical Christians to preach.

I await an answer...

I'm afraid mainstream Islam is intolerant of all non believers and religions.


Not all Muslims are intolerant .. but as commented above, it only needs a few in power .. see Saudi - state sponsor of terrorism, Iran ditto, Egypt - a police state, etc..

We are a tolerant society. We should not tolerate intoleance from whomever. if it offends their religion, let them go and practise it where intolerance is acceptable.

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wendy's avatar

btw..

wendy 06 Sep 2007 14:12

it is certainly not a crime to smoke and drink...it ironic why muslims don't considered violence a crime but a mere drinking and smoking a crime.

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tertullian's avatar

The Rage and the Pride

tertullian 06 Sep 2007 14:21

As we approach the one year anniversary of her passing, how many have forgotten that Oriana Fallaci was prosecuted for writing about this very subject?

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susanx's avatar

here's some examples

susanx 06 Sep 2007 14:23

i hope this don't get cancelled like other times i reported REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE.

If everything is so ok, why the maghrebin man selling carpets door to door in my town, everytime he walks by the main church on the main street of the town, he crosses and walks the other way? No matter if there's burning sun or construction works, he's not walking close to the church and he carefully turns his head the opposite way.

Pretty radical, if you ask me, especially for someone that's in infidel land, working in infidel land, dealing with infidels when he sells his carpets.

No wonder that some of them (happening very frequently) take sticks in their hands and attempt to destroy little statues of jesus and mary that might be built along the streets on old houses.

There are other communities that are not christians such as chinese, other asians, possibly buddist or atheist, yet NO one of them is likely to do the same. I wonder why. What's your explanation, muslim apologists?

Hi Wendy.

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Guangzhou's avatar

Well that's me sold

Guangzhou 06 Sep 2007 14:59

Maybe you should wear garlic to keep him away?

and Wendy, I've just got back from travelling around Syria and if their 'eastern culture or behaviour' was anything to go by, we should take a leaf out of their book. Extremely hospitable and absolutely no problems with me being a christian. Of course injecting any balance and sanity into the discourse will make me an apologist.

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Quietzapple's avatar

Fanatics tend to be infantile

Quietzapple 06 Sep 2007 15:30

and lose to the cool, calm and collected. So G Brown's intention to bring in a way to British citizenship which educates incomers into out language and ways sheould be a big step forward.

My son's ladyfriend is muslim and charming. I gather her mother is muslim too, but her dad isn't. Weird that muslims on another froum used to claim that there were only 5 apostates from their religion worldwide per year . . .

Untruths are going to help find the fanatics out.

I do have experience of islamo-fascists.

A year before 9/11 and the twin towers I returned to a firm I had worked at before, in a lettuce processing factory’s packing department.

Almost all of the agency labour was from the Middle East and North Africa. Odd, but I think other areas of the globe were represented elsewhere in the plant.

I chatted with some of the muslims, from Iraq and Iran and a kurd from Iraq. They told me that the two guys on my line, who had been upset with me were Al Queda, and explained that this meant the network, and that they were very bad, which is why the other people wouldn’t work with them and why I, the only Brit, was left to work with them.

They also said that my joining in with their singing was a mistake. Better to ignore them totally.

I tried to talk with the 2 Al Queda guys. I explained that I am a christian after a fashion. One of them confirmed that, if we were not in England, he would cut my throat because I had not turned to Allah.

They were transferred to another part of the factory where the logistics meant that they could work as a couple.

It si important that everyone comes to realise that there are islamo-fascists, it isn't just an excuse for middle eastern wars.

Almso as inportant that we realise that an overwealming majority of muslims are decent, honest people, bit on the conservative side . . . but there you go.

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Madasafish's avatar

Syria

Madasafish 06 Sep 2007 15:32

is not of course a Muslim country and I carefully excluded it from my list. Along with Iraq (as was) it is a secular society run by a dictatorship under the name of the B'aath party.

To suggest it is a Muslim country - as above - is just deliberate misleading. After all, anyone who preached the overthrow of the Government would disappear without trace.
But Guangzhou knows that. The Christian church (note my use of capitals on both religions.. Pls) has a centuries old tradition in both Iraq and Syria ... and Egypt.

Anyone who advocates Syria as the kind of country we should aim to ape politically is of course supporting murder and suppression of opponents.

I am sure Syrians are both hospitable and kind to Christians... Muslim infidel rantings would be instantly suppressed ... bloddily.

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Madasafish's avatar

Syria

Madasafish 06 Sep 2007 15:32

is not of course a Muslim country and I carefully excluded it from my list. Along with Iraq (as was) it is a secular society run by a dictatorship under the name of the B'aath party.

To suggest it is a Muslim country - as above - is just deliberate misleading. After all, anyone who preached the overthrow of the Government would disappear without trace.
But Guangzhou knows that. The Christian church (note my use of capitals on both religions.. Pls) has a centuries old tradition in both Iraq and Syria ... and Egypt.

Anyone who advocates Syria as the kind of country we should aim to ape politically is of course supporting murder and suppression of opponents.

I am sure Syrians are both hospitable and kind to Christians... Muslim infidel rantings would be instantly suppressed ... bloodily.

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Guangzhou's avatar

I never suggested it was

Guangzhou 06 Sep 2007 15:51

But the majority of people living there are muslims. They don't tolerate extremism, but the way people talk you'd think that the mere fact it is overwhelmingly muslim would dictate that it's full of people who hate the west and christianity

And no I'm not suggesting we should ape them, just look at the massacre of the muslim brotherhood in Hama. I don't believe the people I spoke to were too scared to be honest and I often heard criticism on a range of topics (govt included)

I do believe extremism is a problem, but my experiences with every day muslims in the countries I've visited just don't tally with some of the comments I read on here. Regimes in control often differ greatly in opinion with the mass populus.

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Madasafish's avatar

Muslim states tho

Madasafish 06 Sep 2007 16:16

tend to veer to clerical control or certainly considerable clerical interference an dinfluence.

As I said before.. and others as well.. many Muslims may be very pleasant and reasonable but often the governments which they live under are neither pleasant or reasonable..

I believe there is little organised - eg Government - interference in religion in Syria... because it's a secular state.

I rest my case. Not all Muslims ar fanatic. Most are probably not. But most Muslim states are (.. and impose Sharia law).. see Nigeria et al.

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susanx's avatar

Guangzhou

susanx 06 Sep 2007 16:19

Guangzhou you are not a female and tourists are always welcome with their fresh money. I'd soon trash your opinions in favour of the opinions of the christians LIVING in syria, which i suppose, you have no clue about. Syria had no problem in letting the embassies of Denmakr, Sweden, Chile and norway beind destroyed by religious nutters.

In April 2006, President Bashar al-Asad signed a decree permitting the establishment of a Shari'a (Islamic Law) faculty at Aleppo University.

In 1964, the Government banned Jehovah's Witnesses and branded it a "politically motivated Zionist organization."

In the past, some proselytizers were prosecuted for "posing a threat to the relations among religious groups." Most charges of this kind carried sentences of imprisonment from five years to life, although often such sentences were reduced to one or two years.

The Government primarily cited tense relations with Israel as the reason for barring Jewish citizens from employment in the civil service, serving in the armed forces, and for exempting them from military service obligations. Jews were the only religious minority group whose passports and identity cards noted their religion. They must obtain the permission of the security services before traveling abroad. Jews also faced extra scrutiny from the Government when applying for licenses, deeds, or other government papers. The Jewish community is prohibited from sending historical Torahs abroad under a law against exporting any of the country's historical and cultural treasures. This created a serious problem for the dwindling Jewish community concerned for the preservation of its religious texts.


For Muslims, personal status law on divorce is based on Shari'a, and some of its provisions as interpreted discriminate against women. The legal standard for men to be granted a divorce is much lower than that for women. For example, husbands may claim adultery as grounds for divorce, but wives face more difficulty in presenting the same case. If a woman requests a divorce from her husband, she may not be entitled to child support, alimony, and the return of her dowry in some instances.


You are so guillable Guangzhou, so guillable.

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5050noline's avatar

I never suggested it was

5050noline 06 Sep 2007 16:24

The difference you (and we here in the UK) observe in Muslim behaviour is the difference between the worlds of Dar ul Islam and Dar ul Harb.

I lived 15 years in a ME country and I was deeply shocked at Muslim behaviour when I returned to the UK.

But I now know the reason for it, and its implications. I urge all thinkers to educate themselves.

Damian, thank you for this article.

Please continue to open peoples' eyes.

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susanx's avatar

you are all mistaken

susanx 06 Sep 2007 16:25

There is not a single muslim majority country where non muslims are treated as equals. Pointless to bring me examples of your luxury tourist resorts. Bring examples of people living there, not your buddy, that are probably lying.

yesterday, I brought to a pakistani guy that said that in pakistan christians are treated with utmost respect at least a dozen links of news of persecution (death, forced conversions, rape etc) of christians. He told me they were all lies, all of them, which frankly says it all about the credibility of those people.

It's not the government, it's the people. Musharraf has been educated in a christian school, it's the people harassing christians willingly.

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Guangzhou's avatar

Thanks Susanx

Guangzhou 06 Sep 2007 16:54

For being so presumptuous...I wouldn't class anywhere I stayed as a luxury tourist resort. Additionally, I'd be highly surprised if the rural people who invited me on numerous occasions to join them for food and drink had any grand plan of encouraging an enrichening tourist trade - I certainly was never asked for any money once (and never gave any).

You'd be right however in thinking I'm not female. And while, yes, it is a different experience for women, I have a number of female friends who have been there and had a pleasant experience.

All your examples are of the state, and as madasafish highlights, these can be pretty far removed from the population. I don't doubt Jews are discriminated against, they've got the worst relations with Israel of any Arab country. Don't mistake political motives for religious ones.

I like to see and judge with my own eyes. Though you're welcome to still think I'm 'guillable'

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Madasafish's avatar

Do unto others

Madasafish 06 Sep 2007 17:14

as you would be done by...is a motto I try to live by.

(note: try).

All I ask is Muslims adopt the same principle.

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Peaceful's avatar

Oh Merrick u were sleeping...

Peaceful 06 Sep 2007 17:31

Ive always admired the peaceful nature of west. It started with crusades; the plundering, killing. Started by a peace loving church, giving the gospel of a peace loving God (?), followed by hordes of barbarians. Read history, and know where we were and where u were. Islamic is fanatic...even then they said that, wen they were killing and plundering men, women children.

Then in the mordern times there were 2 peaceful world wars, vietnam, folkland, cuba, korea, iraq, afganisthan. I know its not ur fault. its bcoz other guys are wrong ...of all the nations on earth u r always at war....i know u are helpless...its always them. U start all the wars, and people shouldnt react.

And how many ethnic religious minorities were there in europe that time? when did the current minorities come among u and u started accepting them? They have been among us for centuries and centuries. for us king's religion was not people's s religion. no church burnt our men on stakes. Coloniztion was the best demonstration of european values as far as slaves, minorities etc were concerened.

U have just opened ur eyes, just seen culture, known civilization, lived among minorities, people different from you. U need to get used to it, it will take time. Till then be patient and seek help from people around u.

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jayzee's avatar

Books to correct the balance!

jayzee 06 Sep 2007 17:38


A comment seems to suggests that it is a few dozen books in Tower hamlet libraries that make innocent minds vulnerable and susceptible to extremists views.

Let's hope that the libraries of the Tower Hamlets council take off all those books Douglas Murray finds objectionable. Let's replace them with equal number of copies of 'alternate' works. Here are the ten that would do:

The Islamist by Ed Hussain
The Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali
The Caged Virgin by Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Celsius 7/7 by Michael Gove
Londonistan by Melanie Phillips
What's Wrong With Islam? by Irshad Manji
"The Dhimmi" by Bat Ye'or
Now They Call Me Infidel by Nonie Darwish
"Because They Hate" by Brigitte Gabriel

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susanx's avatar

guillable Guangzhou

susanx 06 Sep 2007 17:39

here's some other examples.

Indonesia, I bet you refer to it as a moderate muslim country (although turkey prime minister said the term 'moderate muslim' is offensive because there is only one kind of muslim):

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=25256
Catholic girls are forced to wear muslim headscarf. Why? is this the government dictating it?

on the other hand:
http://www.cjad.com/news/565/581415

In canada, women will be able to vote with full veil, basically stepping over the duty to be identified to vote.

Let's compare the treatment of non-muslim in muslim lands (even the so called moderate ones) with the immense lenght we go in western countries to accomodate the absurd demands of muslims.

The moral of the story is like someone else said "do to others as you would be done by".

Theoretically, we could be able to treat muslims in our lands like they treat non muslims in their lands, if you and the muslims are so sure about the correct treatment muslim perform on others I guess you'd have no problem in trying this exchange.

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susanx's avatar

sorry

susanx 06 Sep 2007 17:43

the above story belongs to Malaysia and not Indonesia.

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Anglo Manglo's avatar

Merrick

Anglo Manglo 06 Sep 2007 18:24

Spot on Merrick. I personally don't like being ordered to dance around such issues. There's a freaking big elephant in the room and people are at last starting to voice an opinion. I am seriously thinking my next vote being BNP unless Labour or the Conservatives start taking heed to the people they serve.

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Dev Sherman's avatar

choice?

Dev Sherman 06 Sep 2007 18:38

These articles and comments are a bit late now - and more importantly nothing has ACTUALLY changed politically. The thought police have in fact triumphed against the odds it has to be said, not in an Orwellian fiction but simply discrimination (the ability to choose)is discredited and people are used to being lied to, its just the way it is. The politicians are pretty straight kind of guys and you must be mad to question them.Don't beleive me? - try choosing lower immigration, it is not on offer and never will be. Such a thing does not run the risk of being Nazi ideology - it IS Nazi ideology!!Game Over. Demographics in places like Birmingham and London WILL produce a future where there WILL be debate, but not about topics like this!! They don't come up in a homogenous community with the same values - and good luck to them.

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Stephanie's avatar

Guangzho....

Stephanie 06 Sep 2007 18:39

There is only question that matters about your female friends who had the "pleasant experience" traveling in Syria. Were they traveling alone, without male escort, and were they below the age of, say, 60?

I can assure you that a woman traveling alone, venturing outside the sanitized confines of the local Hilton Hotel, a woman who doesn't look like someone's grandmother (Islamic culture reveres mother figures) would not have a "pleasant experience" in Syria.

And you may not have stayed at luxury hotels but I'm sure any Syrian peasant saw you as a man of means and thus to be respected.

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Stephanie's avatar

What I mean is, Guangzho

Stephanie 06 Sep 2007 18:49

Is that a man with some Western money greasing his pockets travels in an entirely different **universe** than a woman (rich, poor, Western, Arab) traveling "unescorted" in a Muslim country. I have traveled "unescorted" (for a very short period) and escorted and whew! I can tell you escorted is much, much, much better...

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Maddie's avatar

Merrick

Maddie 06 Sep 2007 19:31

...has hit the nail on the head.

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Vincent C's avatar

"can't they make their own choice?"

Vincent C 06 Sep 2007 19:35

"can't they make their own choice?"

That says it all. No they can't.

Would you allow a non-muslim to marry your daughter?

Are women in your family free to choose who to marry?

Why do the Taliban try to stop girls going to school? Whose choice is it?

How many people are permitted to build churches in Saudi Arabia? Can they not choose?

Why is it forbidden to train Christian clergy in Istanbul? What freedom of choice do people have in that so-called secular state which has just elected an islamist?

Etc etc etc etc

But never any answers, because there aren't any.

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Madasafish's avatar

Brainwashed.

Madasafish 06 Sep 2007 19:43

I make up my own mind, make my own judgements and do not claim others are "brainwashed".

I'm sorry but broad sweeping generalisations - with no facts - persuade no-one.. except they make the reader think the person making them has a weak case.

We all have a choice in life. We can act well, and treat others well. or we can be brutal, treat others badly , multilate , kill and make war (and yes I include the Iraq war in this as well).

There is another parable "by their works shall you know them".
All I can say is that people and religions who treat others badly are evil. (and yes Mr Blair falls into that category.. by definition)

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John Storm's avatar

There is only one relevant question.

John Storm 06 Sep 2007 20:52

Why are the muslims here?
If they don't like us and our way of life?
Why don't they just stay where they were?
They are a text book example of a fifth column.

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glynismary's avatar

help

glynismary 06 Sep 2007 21:21

I have just submitted my very first blog and realised I have made a horrible mistake. I read a blog that had Peter Griffith MP as its title and thought that it had been submitted by him and made a response. What can I do to correct this? Can I re-edit it?

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Dev Sherman's avatar

Mark Gabriel

Dev Sherman 06 Sep 2007 21:46

There is a great book - far harder hitting than Oriana Fallaci, Mel Philips, Robert Foster et al.... as it contains a much shorter, direct assessment of the truth. I was written by someone who had memorised the Qu'ran by the age of twelve and preached sermons at Islams undisputed most prestigious institution, and graduated top in his class, has a doctorate in Islamic History. For 15 years he lectured, the youngest professor of Islamic History to do so at Al Azhar University. One day he was told to tone down his sermons, make them more tolerant, well this is a problem as the Qu'ran............well , let him tell it , its so honest and truthful , I feel I understand Islam perfectly after his expert guide, and I mean EXPERT. His book Islam and the Jews spelled out what Islam really is, you'll be very glad you read this book. The truth will set you free, but it is hard to come by in this age of dissimulation and PC. Mark talks direct and from the heart - gives a FORENSIC guide to Islam , you can quote him in a law court. There is no better expert. Come on people!! btw I surf in Fiji a lot where black and white live in FULL harmony, it doesn't matter, it was once a part and chose to remain a part of the British Empire, and its paradise.Not like the Islamic Hell.

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paradise?

Dev Sherman 06 Sep 2007 22:19

Oh actually Fiji is not a paradise as it had a military coup Why? Because Indians (brought in as indentured labour by the Brits) now outnumber the indigenous Fijians and voted in their very own prime minister......the Fijians just couldn't accept being a minority in their own country and being ruled by non-natives....so they just took over where democracy (actually demography)had failed them, as it will soon fail the people of Birmingham and if you think it will be fine, let me tell you, it won't, by your own standards. The vast majority of Brits want an end to immigration simply as they don't want to live in a foreign country in their 'own' country.This is as laudable and as necessary for us as for the Fijians. White Flight ?Sharia Law? Racism? YOu in England are about to learn the real meaning of these terms due to your folly.

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Damian

majortom 06 Sep 2007 22:31

Don't think Douglas Murray is typical of us young people. I certainly don't share his way of thinking. The times I have seen him he looked cold and not someone who has much to do apart from his work.

Also I don't know how anyone can still support the failed idea of Neoconservatism as he does.

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Damien

Cogito ergo sum 06 Sep 2007 23:51

'I know I should say “militant” Islam, but to be honest I’m finding it increasingly difficult to tell the difference between the militants and the moderates.'
As you well know Damien, 'militant Islam' is not the Islam to which most Muslims subscribe.It is a silly as saying 'I cant tell the diffrence between Catholics and the IRA. Come on! I think your next statement is absolutely appaling :
'Anyway, next time a suicide murderer blows himself up, at least the police will know what clue to look for: a Tower Hamlets library card.'
This is a gross slur on all those who live and work in Tower Hamlets. I think you owe them an apology.

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wendy's avatar

seeing in a different light..

wendy 07 Sep 2007 02:03

guangzhou should take note that muslims government everywhere treat their nonmuslims citizen worst than third class citizen. it is not surprising that they are only hospitable to certain tourists only...some people in syria claimed to be christian but most of them are behave like those muslim sadist who dominate the arab political scene.

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wendy's avatar

and may i add..

wendy 07 Sep 2007 02:22

it is not surprising that they are only hospitable to some 'lucky' tourist people who stayed in their luxury hotel...ie..they revered people who they think are rich..maybe ghuanzhou should go and stay in their palace for more than three days...and they will start quoting some nonsense from their koran..they will start trying to be a difficult host(if we don't donate some money to them)..

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Bertie C's avatar

IRA

Bertie C 07 Sep 2007 03:14

"It is a silly as saying 'I cant tell the diffrence between Catholics and the IRA. Come on!"

Except the IRA didn't fight in the name of Catholicism and were in fact Marxist in their politics.

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wendy's avatar

Bertie C

wendy 07 Sep 2007 03:20

i applaud you for pointing out this relevant fact.

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Peaceful's avatar

Vincent

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 04:56

Are women in your family free to choose who to marry?

Ans: I was just wondering how some people think. Maybe they think their side of the world is bright and the rest of the world is dark. Much like a cat drinking milk with eyes closed, so that he doesnt want to see wats beyond.
Do u really think we are robots, I know u have taught that from centuries and even today.Why are u ppl so afraid to marry? After all the dating, knowing each other and eventual marriage, how many relationships go thru? The point is tolerance that u dont have in ur private or public life. If people differ from u, u cant accept it.And u might definitely be knowing our marriages are stable. If our people are drawn into unwilling marriages, tell how do the relationships last? At the point of gun? U have to be smarter than that.

By the way, wen islam was introduced in 7th century, a few things came along with it
1)right to divorce for women 2)right to inheritence for women 3)Pre nuptial contracts.
When did u have it dear?

Why do the Taliban try to stop girls going to school? Whose choice is it?

Its Thaliban's problem, not the problem of islam (was hitler the problem of christianity?). They are in a way perverts like Bush. And anyway, world over news is covered by western media. We shall trust them for ur sake....

How many people are permitted to build churches in Saudi Arabia? Can they not choose?

They are permitted to build churches the same way muslims are permitted to build mosques in west and they are allowed to wear headscarves (a good thing nuns too wear it). But in these countries they do not face the selective propoganda that muslims face in the west.

Why is it forbidden to train Christian clergy in Istanbul? What freedom of choice do people have in that so-called secular state which has just elected an islamist?

4get about christians, the country doesnt even give proper rights to muslims. As u said, they have JUST been elected.

If u genuinely want to know about islam, read Qur-an, not Taliban, Saudi, Turkey, Pakistan etc.

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Irene, for once....

Keith Birch 07 Sep 2007 05:50

I agree with you, not specifically on a pro-Israel stance per se, but on the prediction of Sharia Law introduction or at least its having equal standing to English Law.

Some 20+ years ago, I worked in Dubai, UAE, and being in the international shipping industry, took the regional maps from my office in London and hung them on the wall.

On the second morning, I noticed that the word "Israel" on the map had been covered in the black indelible link from the pen on my desk. My secretary, an Indian Christian married to a Sudanese Muslim, informed me that it would almost certainly have been the work of the cleaners (Pakistanis).

I told many people back in the UK about this story, and they were amazed that this kind of thing would occur. Then Irene tells us about Manchester LEA (not exactly a million miles from my ancestral seat)!!!

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Madasafish's avatar

Peaceful

Madasafish 07 Sep 2007 05:57

I urge you to read the questions.. and read your answers - which are really not answers but an apology for one.

You cannot defend bad actions by blaming others.. which is a fault a numnber of Muslims indulge in.

I'm sorry.. but by your replies - or rather lack of them.. you are basically proving my point..
Many Muslims are intolerant of non Muslims.


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Quietzapple's avatar

Merrick's history

Quietzapple 07 Sep 2007 07:22

is incomplete.

The German Nazis got 31% of the vote, I recall from modern history leactures, before taking advantage of divisions among their political opponents and seizing power.

There is no prospect of that happening here, unless you want to believe the exaggerations of the extreme non Islamo-fascist right or those of the islamo-fascists themselves.

It would be better to continue to highlight the views of these groups and invite people of all kinds to dissociate themselves from them than to exaggerate their strength.

Muslims have a case that this version of their religion is remote from their Islam. They are going to have to swallow their pride and join us in opposing these people, or they may later have to join us to resist the BNP and other crypto-Nazis.

By then the political situation would be on its way to catastrophe.

Resistance is always one step in the mind of one man, woman, child . . .

Makes it easy for everyone to play a tiny part, doesn't it?

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Madasafish

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 08:17

Hmm...I reckon u dont have much to say do u? To say u have to know, u have to learn. Learn things beyond the west, instead of just repeating (Muslims are intoler.....etc etc etc).

And western armies are present in almost all muslim countries and non muslim countries in asia, middle east, south america, may be 2 preach tolerance and spread message of love (what a joke..).

War was ur way of life, and still is. If u want to see intolerance, look into ur lives...

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Madder than any fish

Quietzapple 07 Sep 2007 08:41

to believe that so many countries are occupied by western armed forces.

Western culture, especially its material atefacts, on the other hand is being welcomed from China to Kazakhstan.

The poor judgement which characterises the young for developmental reasons is often accompanied by refusal to consider anything outside whatever view has been achieved.

Put real questions, don't imagine you have achieved enlightenment.

The Al Queda guys in the factory and their closed minds are the real enemy of people of good will, surely?

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BlackArrow's avatar

Which books did you say you want burned, Damian?

BlackArrow 07 Sep 2007 08:41

Probably Aesop's Fables included, what with the story of the Frog and the Scorpion.

Damian Thompson, Book Selector for All Britain.

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Vincent C's avatar

"Peaceful"

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 08:45

In the absence of answers, one can only infer from your response that:

1 Muslims control women's lives. They have no choice who to marry, are expected to wear degrading clothing, and must do so because that is what islam expects.

2 You have not a clue about what happens in Saudi Arabia. Christians are not permitted to worship, let alone build churches, and there is a death sentence for anyone found to have handed out literature about the Christian faith.

3 You pursue the usual line that the world's islamic regimes do not represent islam. Sadly they do, in varying degrees of barbarity: all treat women as property, and many permit polygamy and genital mutilation.

4 The term "peaceful" in islam simply means the imposition of its ideology and the removal of any kind of dissent.

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Stephanie's avatar

it's not "banning books"

Stephanie 07 Sep 2007 10:06

people should stop confusing the issue by throwing the term "banning books" around. Should the libraries decide to stop carrying these books the books would not be "banned"; banning implies not-allowing-to-exist -- anywhere, not in shops, not on the net. It is an inflammatory term because it brings to mind confiscation, even ...burning.

Governments are forced to make value judgements sometimes. Would the public libraries carry books explaining how to construct a suicide bomb vest? I doubt it. The government would be forced to admit that it does draw certain lines. No one is entitled to government support as expressed by having your book carried in a public-funded library.

THAT SAID: If we're going to carry Mein Kampf then why shouldn't we carry these books? Not carrying them (oops, I almmost said "banning them") would give them more totemic power and would open a path for endless byzantine discussions (maybe law suits) about what other books should be not carried. I am certain that if British libraries stopped carried these Jihadi texts, the British equivalent of CAIR (Council for American/Islamic Relations) would immediately respond with a lawsuit demanding that libraries also dispose of, say, their biographies of Zionist Movement founder Theodore Herzl.

And what would you have then? More tax dollars siphoned off to litigate. I don't know if this would happen in Britain; but what if the libraries of Britain were sued for discrimination -- as would surely happen in the U.S.

The bottom line is governments should stay as small as possible by concerning themselves with peoples' behavior. Let people read these books all they want, but -- for once -- be very, very clear about what will happen if they actually attempt the jihad the books encourage.

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poor judgement of the young

Madasafish 07 Sep 2007 10:10

"The poor judgement which characterises the young for developmental reasons is often accompanied by refusal to consider anything outside whatever view has been achieved."

I cannot excuse the often wayward behaviour of our young.
Fortunately they do not resort to suicide bombing. Correction: the non Muslims do not.

Perhaps you would like to explain why not?

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Peaceful's avatar

Vincent again...

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 12:31

Interesting observations
------------------------
Women as property - I agree some cultures view women as property/commodity.

During childhood they play with toys,from teenage they are entertained to sleep with strange men (no strings attached, how convenient. if teenage pregnencies creep in, whos the loser? not to say anything about sexual diseases). I agree girls are sex objects here.

Then there are the careers for women - models, sportswomen, pop artists, porn artists etc etc etc... Female sexuality is being sold like a hot cake, and its natural it will be sold. These cultures have made a business out of woman's body. Women are a commodity here, sexual objects, sold for a price.

How liberating... No more degrading clothes like christian nuns, to be accurate no clothes at all..Ads, films everything shows too much nude women (may be there is too much liberation), nude men are too rare...We need to plan for liberation of men too.

Newspapers take special shots of sportswomen in action and publish them. Film stars-their nudity has a price. Sportstars-their nudity has a price. We can see all this on air, print etc etc etc.. .What a liberation....My goodness, this liberation is too convenient for men.

What is the liberation from, clothes?

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Vincent again

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 12:56


Genital mutilation - I wonder how u will justify this with the jews. They too do this. So did Christ. Ur govt takes such anti semitic (it seems they dont know arabs are also semitic) views very seriously.

Polygamy is wrong, coz u have more than 1 wife, that too legally, and the children have a father and mother, and they have legal and social acceptance/protection.

Having girlfriends, or a wife + girlfriend(s) is very right, coz the relationship has no strings attached, no responsibilities. It's very convenient. Check the name give to such unions and children of such unions according to English dictionary.

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irenelancaster's avatar

On politeness as a relative virtue

irenelancaster 07 Sep 2007 12:58

Thanks, Keith. Yes, expunging Israel from maps etc is worrying. Happens all the time.

Many posters have drawn attention to politeness. What strikes you on coming to live in Israel is how rude people are. To be honest many of the Arabs living here are far more polite than the Jews.

However, although like many Brits I think manners are important and tend to have a go at people who chew gum when they are supposed to be representing a government ministery, or stop dealing with you at the bank, because a phone call has just come in, I would rather have this rudeness and nonchalance, than mayhem and murder and stabbings in the back.

By the way, there are rumours floating about that 'polite' Syria has just threatened us with War.

So if they get their way there may well be no more postings from me.

Sigh of relief all round!!

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Vincent C's avatar

"Peaceful"

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 13:05

My goodness, you do have a serious incomprehension problem with the concept of freedom of choice!

Who are you to dictate what kind of life any woman should lead? If your daughter wished to wear western clothes, to drink alcohol, to marry a non-muslim, you would no doubt prevent this. This is not freedom of choice.

The problem is you think you own the women in your family, and you certainly control them. Your koran even advises you to beat them if they step out of line. You arrange their marriage, often to complete strangers, and in some islamic states this can take place at 9 years, emulating your founder who "married" a child of that age. Poor Aisha had no freedom of choice!

You don't want women to be seen, because they are your property, to be kept concealed and even confined to the house. This is not a moral argument, but a fear that someone else might find them attractive, and they belong to YOU.

There is a complete gulf between the mediaeval culture which you inhabit, and that of the west, where human rights are fundamental to our way of life. That means rights for women, not to obey your husband/father, but to control and decide their own destiny as a woman.

While islam maintains its claim to control women, it will always be unwelcome in the west. There are a thousand other reasons, but any ideology which treats half the human race as chattels is doomed from the outset.

Islam will have to reform or disappear. It is impossible to prevent women in islamic countries from claiming the same rights as men, now that the internet is here, and they can see for themselves the genuine freedom of choice enjoyed by non-muslim women.

The Soviet Union collapsed because of the free flow of information on radio and television. Its citizens could see what a raw deal they were getting from their Communist masters. The same is happening to islam in Africa. Six million a year are converting to Christianity because they can see for themselves the liberation it brings.

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Vincent C's avatar

"Peaceful"

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 13:09

"Liberation from clothes"

Ha ha ha ha. Why do I see muslim men in hot countries in fashionable shirts and shorts, accompanied by their wives, sweltering under heavy robes which cover all but their eyes or face?

Liberation for men, indeed. But their women must remain unseen, so they are compelled to suffer under portable tents.

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Vincent C's avatar

"Peaceful"

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 13:17

Toys?
You don't permit girls to play with toys? What a brutal regime!

Genital mutilation?
This is what muslims are doing to women (it has been on this website before):
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk/DiscView.asp?mid=864&forum_id=2&

Polygamy?
You justify this because you want to have sex with more than one woman. But freedom of choice for women in the west means that nobody can legally have more than one spouse. If you are practising polygamy in England, you are only legally married to the first "wife". The rest are bigamous and their children have no legal father. That is the law here.

I can see why muslim men are so attached to their "religion" of "peace". It is an ideology which keeps women firmly in the harem. Your choice, not theirs.

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Peaceful's avatar

Vincent

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 13:19


My goodness, I underestimated u. U have time to write. U represent not just the west, but christianity tooo!!!

A small doubt - How can u be a christian and a westerner at the same time? U will have to break most of the commandments. Your thoughts please.

And then the liberation of Christ, and liberation of west...

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Vincent C's avatar

Nope, no answers

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 14:13

No answers, as always from islamic apologists.

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Alan Marsh's avatar

Human rights

Alan Marsh 07 Sep 2007 14:27

Western civilisation is founded on the Jewish and Christian scriptures which comprise the Holy Bible. For Christians the principles of equality of men and women and freedom from slavery are axiomatic. The opposite appears to be true for islam.

Translated into legal terms over many centuries, in Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus, and many other statements of respect for the rights and dignity of every human being, this means that those who live in the West have freedom to choose whether or not to be religious, and to choose a religion freely.

The commandments, both those in Exodus, and those in the New Testament, are observed as a matter of faith and conscience by religious people. Some of these, such as the commandment against murder, are also prohibited by law, derived originally from the Christian bible.

Unfortunately the law imposed by islam knows nothing of principles of liberation, freedom of religion or conscience, respect for individual rights, or equality of men and women. This is why it is so utterly alien to western civilisation, which can not compromise with the primitive society islam seeks to impose wherever it goes.

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Quietzapple's avatar

NB Newbies . . .

Quietzapple 07 Sep 2007 15:44

Ill informed, long winded hatred stalks this thread . . .

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Soufiene's avatar

Merrick: brilliant!!

Soufiene 07 Sep 2007 17:31

Your arguments are really brilliant. But I think that you forgot to quote Georges Bush and dick cheney clan and supporters in you're list. They are the most dangerous "minority" for the moment. Perhaps you should add them ...

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Stephanie's avatar

Irene/on rudeness

Stephanie 07 Sep 2007 19:42

Sometimes it's rudeness and sometimes it's just the informality and raging democracy of this place. Hierarchies are simply not observed. Soldiers don't jump to attention at the sight of officers here. Privates introduce themselves to officers by saying things like "Hi, I'm Shuki; over there's Orit."

There's a brilliant exchange recorded in this book I'm reading about the Yom Kippur War (by the mideast staff of the Times of London) where General Ariel Sharon calls some guys who are in a bunker in the Sinai taking heavy fire from the Egyptians. This low-ranking reservist who talks to Sharon on the phone isn't calling him "Sir"; he's calling him "Arik", as in "look Arik, it's like this: They're holding a stretch of land..." My favorite photo in the book is captioned "a briefing interupts an improvised shower" and shows one guy bare-butt naked, standing around talking to two other guys in uniform.

These people simply do not know how to observe ritual and respect rank!

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Peaceful's avatar

Alan Marsh and Utopia

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 19:56

Some of the commandments
------------------------

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' - its now father, son and holy ghost. not one but 3.

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' -- This is already broken. The messenger is God now. His image is being worshipped. It used to be a semitic religion, but now its a Roman product now.

SIX: 'You shall not murder.' - Crusades, struggle between church and state, Iraq, Afganisthan, Cuba, Vietnam, world wars, korea, colonialism, slave trade, racism, burning in stakes, witch hunting etc etc etc

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.' - girlfriends

Christian church waged wars , did slave trade, burnt people on stakes, hunted witches, denied divorce, denied inheritence to women and preached impossible morals - result, vast majority of the western world rejected religion.

Where have the Bible told to free slaves? India had slave sultans (sultans who were previously slaves). There were turkish Sultans who were freed slaves. Islam did not teach to do a confession if u sinned. instead it asked to free a slave or more if u own slaves. Slavery did not start with Islam, but it asked a society owning slaves to free them.

In western christendom there were white Popes and white kings. We still dont see any black presidents, black prime ministers or black Popes. African slave trade, ku klux klan, Hitler, etc..etc and black slaves..Racism all around.

In west releasing slaves is a 19th or 20th century phenomena, just like divorce and women's inheritance. For us its a 7th century phenomenon.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

Exodus 21:7-8 "And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her."

Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Matthew 10:24 "A student is not greater than the teacher. A slave is not greater than the master."

Let us look at 1 Peter 2:18 "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Let us look at Colossians 3:22 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

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Peaceful

Bridget 07 Sep 2007 20:37

One: The Holy Trinity is that mysterious thing one God in three persons, not 3 gods.

Two: there is a difference between venerating an icon and worshipping a graven image. The second commandment was a condemnation of paganism.

Six: Thou shalt not kill is a jolly good commandment I agree. Let's ALL take a bit more notice of that one shall we?

I can't be bothered to address the rest of your OT stuff, but.......

....in the Bible I have to hand, (Douay Rhiems) the Peter and Colossians verses you quote have 'servants' not 'slaves'. There's a difference, and I assume St Jerome was aware of it when he made his translation.

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Vincent

Peaceful 07 Sep 2007 21:08


Who are you to dictate what kind of life any woman should lead? If your daughter wished to wear western clothes, to drink alcohol, to marry a non-muslim, you would no doubt prevent this. This is not freedom of choice.
-----But the beauty is our women do not think the way u do. Wat u say is something even they dont want (I know u will say we force them to. u have been repeating it so many times. why not try something better and sensible). Ur freedom of choice is immoral and immodest for them. U chose to differ? U have a right to...Ohh not again, I agree... we force everything on them. Only western women have intelligence...

The problem is you think you own the women in your family, and you certainly control them. Your koran even advises you to beat them if they step out of line. You arrange their marriage, often to complete strangers, and in some islamic states this can take place at 9 years, emulating your founder who "married" a child of that age. Poor Aisha had no freedom of choice!

-----Good try!
France legal age=15 for marriage
Russia legal age=14 "
US legal age=12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
1400 yrs before, 9 is an acceptable age (there is another opinion its 11yrs). Besides its something common throughout the world. better luck next time!

You don't want women to be seen, because they are your property, to be kept concealed and even confined to the house. This is not a moral argument, but a fear that someone else might find them attractive, and they belong to YOU.

U r soo right. What is ur interest in other's women? Its a common western trait. Isnt ur woman enough? Why dont u start interacting with some men for a change. And u r right. Wen we go to office, our wives go to market in airtight, black colored containers so that others dont see them. They go to hospitals, schools public places like this. We are facing an acute lack of cartons for our women to hide wen they go out. Can u provide some? Pls dont waste my time.

While islam maintains its claim to control women, it will always be unwelcome in the west. There are a thousand other reasons, but any ideology which treats half the human race as chattels is doomed from the outset.

----- Need to seriously endorse our women to shed their clothes, sell their bodies and be liberated.

Islam will have to reform or disappear. It is impossible to prevent women in islamic countries from claiming the same rights as men, now that the internet is here, and they can see for themselves the genuine freedom of choice enjoyed by non-muslim women.

---Notice the developments in Turkey? Look hard and understand. This is just a beginning. The women are revolting against islam, isnt it?

The Soviet Union collapsed because of the free flow of information on radio and television. Its citizens could see what a raw deal they were getting from their Communist masters. The same is happening to islam in Africa. Six million a year are converting to Christianity because they can see for themselves the liberation it brings.

------Thats great news mate, cheers. But the only thing I don't understand is why did majority of Europeans reject christianity?

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Vincent C's avatar

As I thought

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 21:47

As I thought you are obsessed with sex and your control of women. You seem to be paranoid that someone might see your wife or daughter, who are your private property, which is why islam requires them to be covered up, and gives you authority to beat them if they step out of line.

Adultery includes taking more than one wife. You commit adultery if you attempt to do so. It is also classed as bigamy in the UK, which is a serious criminal offence. The Church follows the teaching of Jesus Christ: one man married to one woman.

"No girlfriends" - that's something of a Freudian slip of your pen! You obviously are accustomed to such things.

Your grasp of the Bible is, I am afraid, rather naive. Have you been reading some propaganda down at the islamist bookstore?

Europeans are free to choose whether to have a religion or not. I appreciate that is hard to comprehend in an ideology which encourages the killing of unbelievers if they refuse to conform to islam, but that is how it is in the free world. People are not compelled to join a religion. But no doubt you would like to try to force them to do so.

You could also do with some history lessons. I suggest you begin with Karsh's "Islamic Imperialism", which explains how islam began as a tribal fiefdom and sought to spread, not by conversion but by conquest. In fact the word "crusade" is a neat translation for "jihad".

Fortunately muslims seem even more intent on killing other muslims than anyone else, so islam has not progressed very far geographically, and nowhere culturally.

You will probably find the word "slave" in a telephone directory, or a computer manual, but it does not mean that slavery has divine approval, or that it is unfamiliar in islam. Not only has islam enslaved its women from the outset, it is actively engaged in the slave trade in Africa today.

As for Turkey, it wants to join the EU. They have a long way to go before they will be fit for membership, but they want to be Europeans, not Saudis. They will be welcome if they are prepared to accept European standards of freedom of choice, speech, religion - all the things which you seem to have difficulty with.

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amicus's avatar

clothes

amicus 07 Sep 2007 22:08

What is so infantile in some muslim men is that they think their women have the monopoly on virtue. Peaceful says that women in the West "shed their clothes,sell their bodies to be liberated" Eh? I've lived a long time in this country and i've never met any women who do this. The vast majority of women and girls in this country are really quite normal but don't think that showing their legs or shoulders is somehow going to inflame anyone's passion.I resent the implication that dressing within western norms is somehow saying that you are a tart. The fetishising over covering women's bodies is puritanical and insulting not only to women but also to men as the implication is that you cannot control yourselves.

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No Rationale

Maddie 07 Sep 2007 22:09

Soufeine

Take a look at the list of Islamic terrorist acts that have been going on for DECADES. Bush, Cheney, and their "supporters" are "the most dangerous minority for the moment"? Are you REALLY that foolish? (how many "peace loving" Muslims are murdering other "peace loving" Muslims in Iraq?)

Quietzapple

Merrick said:

"So, the MAJORITY (my emphasis) just sat back and let it happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come."
How does 31% of the vote the Nazi's got not make up the minority?
What part of relentless minority vs passive majority do you not understand?

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Muslim Oppression of Women

Maddie 07 Sep 2007 22:20

And some Muslim women are turning to "corrective" surgery to revert them back to a state of physical virginity before they marry a Muslim man.

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31% of the vote

Quietzapple 07 Sep 2007 23:02

will not lead to sharia law in the UK. Too much opposition. And there are not going to be anything like that many muslims here anyway.

So the first parrallel drawn is wrong.

Life is too short to bother examining the further historicist nonesenses.

All this hysterical nonsense is not calculated to oppose the islamo-fascists, it is to promote another more familiar kind of racist fascism, for reasons which vary according to the groups involved.

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Percentages?

Vincent C 07 Sep 2007 23:19

31% is remarkably similar to the figure which gave us Nu Labour....

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Labour

Quietzapple 07 Sep 2007 23:58

had more than 31% of the vote, ask John Major.

Pretty sure the Nazis had 31% of the vote.

Figures for % of those entitled to vote are another matter.

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Who Needs Goebbels When You Have...

Maddie 08 Sep 2007 02:19

Wow
Life is too short for history!

"there are not going to be anything like that many Mulims here anyway"? Fastest growing religion: Islam.

And what is that "familiar racist fascism" that has brought Brits, Swedes, Danes, French, Canadians, Germans, Americans, Australians, Conservatives, Liberals, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddists, etc., etc., etc., together to raise awareness of and stand up to militant Islam?

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maddie

wendy 08 Sep 2007 03:48

when did ever muslims ever really criticise their own militancy or fanaticism. eg..pakistan only make abig show out of it ust to get some aid money from US.

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Vincent!

Peaceful 08 Sep 2007 04:11

So no more denials now. It's now like this - wat if we do it, u too do it (how hard u are trying in vain).

And the usual mix of 'propoganda', crusade=jihad, and other allegations. All that is lacking is facts.

And if wat u say about bigamy and adultery is true, many great men in BIBLE (Old testament) wld have been stoned to death. They had more than one wife. Do u keep ur eyes wen you come to that, or only that part is not acceptable in bible?

Read the history of west and christianity too.

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Vincent

Peaceful 08 Sep 2007 04:25

The general message is short..

U lead ur way of life . We lead our way of life.

U try to impose ur western values(?) on others, majority of muslims will resist it. Is that ur main problem?

If some of u insist on ur crusade to 'civilize' the world, arent u being a bit overconfident and shortsighted? Maybe a selective amnesia of history has occured to u.

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Peaceful

Maddie 08 Sep 2007 06:40

"U lead ur way of life. We lead our way of life." Yeah, right. Why are Muslim's moving to western countries and making demands?

How many Iraqi's risked their lives to vote?

Also, you do not know the Bible. Of course there is sin and sinners. The Old Testament is an account of a nation (the Jewish nation). The New Testament is an account of a Man (the Son of Man). The nation was founded and nurtured of God in order to bring the Man into the world. The Old Testament sets the stage for it. The New Testament describes it. As a man, Christ lived the most perfect life ever known. He was kind, tender, gentle, patient, and sympathetic. He loved people. Then He died-to take away the sin of the world, and to become the Saviour of men. There is no comparison between the life and teachings of Christ and Mohammed.

And did you catch Osama telling Americans they should convert to Islam? LOL!


Wendy

Some Muslims have spoken against terrorism, but nowhere near the supposedly 'majority of peace loving' Muslims. They are mostly mute compared to the 'minority' jihadists.

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One More Thing

Maddie 08 Sep 2007 06:55

Where is the legal age for marriage in the US 12?

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maddie..

wendy 08 Sep 2007 07:28

some muslims and nonmuslims are indirectly and passively supporting terrorism against us, though they
do occassionally speak out against terrorism just to regain some lost credibility of their group.

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and maddie..

wendy 08 Sep 2007 07:57

even if some muslims did spoke out against terrorism, i don't see them taking any actions to stop their coreligionist terrorism against us.

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Together

Quietzapple 08 Sep 2007 08:33

like ferrets in a sack, those " Brits, Swedes, Danes, French, Canadians, Germans, Americans, Australians, Conservatives, Liberals, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, Buddists, etc., etc., etc., together to raise awareness of and stand up to militant Islam?"

Not all of you are Nazis, you are disparate.

Widely spread, sure, but not nearly so numerous as you imagine. And you are not standing up to "militant islam" - you are attacking ordinary muslims a lot of the time in your cranky ill informed utterances.

I expect that claims that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK are true. I shop and sometimes work in Walthamstow in the East End where there are more different cultures represented than anywhere else I have been.

31%, perhaps more, of the polulation there may well be muslim. Nationwide most probably nearer 5%. Growth of 10% per annum (a fantastic rate!) would take them to 5.5% after a year etc.

It all reminds me of Peter Cook's jokes about snakes in the Amazon - "Many of them many millions of miles long . . ."

Those who mislead about their numbers and nature are acting in their own and their political masters' interests, not those of Christians, atheists etc who reject Islamo-fascism.

The wider you spead the fears about Islam generally, the more you protect the Islamo-fascists of course, because the ordinary muslims will not be pursuaded to help reduce the strength of the crazies if you manage to pursuade the rest of us that they are all the same.

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to Peaceful

Stephanie 08 Sep 2007 11:19

Setting aside the question of who is right about Muslim practices like the veil, I think you can agree that your comments, taken as a whole, radiate disapproval for Western-style sexuality and womens' freedoms.

I'm really curious. Do you live here? (the UK, the US, Europe)

And if so, why would you live in such a place you find so degenerate?

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For Vincent

Peaceful 08 Sep 2007 11:29

FGC= Female genital cutting.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Cultural_and_religious_aspects

The practice of FGC predates both Islam and Christianity and there is no clear understanding of where or why the practice of FGC came into existence. Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[17] It was most likely spread throughout the Northern parts of Africa with Arab slave traders and is now practiced among Muslims, Christians and Animists.[18] However, religion alone is not the common thread amongst FGC advocates, as it transcends both culture and religion. UNICEF stated that when "looking at religion independently, it is not possible to establish a general association with FGM/C status."[19]

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quietzalple

susanx 08 Sep 2007 11:38

"Life is too short to bother examining the further historicist nonesenses."

whoever doesn't know hystory is condemned to repeat it, and you are one clear example.

Nobody thought the nazis could gain power, as well as sharia law.

Look at lebanon, once a 60% christian country, now 40%, some sharia is creeping in.

Opposition to sharia will disappear for fear, threats and other subtle means. See it happens sooner than you think.

Some trials are already granting rights to muslims that are not granted to any other group of people.

Canada is allowing veil during the voting process, do you think you will be allowed to vote without identification? Enough said.

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susanx -

Quietzapple 08 Sep 2007 13:28

is your name after Malcolm X? Do you imagine that you are some sort of white supremacist answer to black supremacism?

You do not know what "historicist" means, so:

Dictionary
historicism |hiˈstôrəˌsizəm; -ˈstär-| noun 1 the theory that social and cultural phenomena are determined by history. • the belief that historical events are governed by laws. 2 the tendency to regard historical development as the most basic aspect of human existence. 3 chiefly derogatory (in artistic and architectural contexts) excessive regard for past styles. DERIVATIVES historicist noun ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from historic , translating German Historismus.

Try Popper's "The poverty of historicism." Popper ws one of Mrs T's faves, btw.

The only history which may be repeated here is that intended by your leaders, the rise of a crypto-Nazi Party, with the muslims cast as the jews.

Oh, and those who didn't worry too mucha bout the Nazis taking power were sympathetic to them as your comrade earlier suggested.

No one is going to hand over the government of this country to either your extreme position, nor that of the Islamo-fascists, nor even those who want Sharia Law.

The whole lot of you aren't going to amount to 10% in total, even if you do all try so very hard to roune up unnatural hatreds.

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Female Genital Cutting

Quietzapple 08 Sep 2007 14:44

is illegal in the UK.

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Voting

Quietzapple 08 Sep 2007 15:27

in the UK doesn't require identification.

The usual way is to take the card sent to one at the address at which one is registered to the polling station. I believe the polling officer has to be satisfied that one is whom one says one is.

Voting in someone else's name is called personation and is a serious crime.

Only by pre-arrangement can someone who is sick or not available to go to the polls (or says they are not) arrange for a postal vote, or for someone else to have a "proxy" vote for them.

In the past the main uses of this en masse have been by people in retirement homes, when the owner, most likely, would use their votes for the conservative party candidate.

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Stephanie

Peaceful 08 Sep 2007 16:30


This blog is censoring my comments. Twice too. So much for freedom of expression. How hypocritical!!! wat else can be expected????

And coming to ur question, I disapprove what u approve, u disapprove wat I approve and this is quite natural. But try to impose things on others, u will face resistance...U stick to urs, we will stick to ours.

And apart from our controversial subject, there are so many things to know and learn from this 'degenerate' place. I wouldn't miss such an opportunity.

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quietzalple

susanx 08 Sep 2007 17:28

"in the UK doesn't require identification."

well this doesn't happen in every other western country, or are you that arrogant to think that the UK is the only role model possible in the whole universe.

And voting by proxy is possible and will be abused. Mark my words. Get used to sharia, buy a prayer rug.

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Proxy voting

Vincent C 08 Sep 2007 18:22

Is being widely abused in the UK. It was made freely available by NuLabour so that they could pocket a few more votes, and there is plenty of evidence that a certain element - guess which one - has been assiduously registering and voting for multiple nonexistent voters...

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So, Peaceful...

Stephanie 08 Sep 2007 18:43

hmmmm, lots of people who find our culture degenerate still seem to be finding their way here.

Could it be that there's some connection between the things you think of as degenerate (like full liberation and participation of women) and a certain vitality in a scoiety? Maybe keeping 50% of the population out of full participation has a way of making a society stagnant and boring for those that live in it?

You, for instance, seem drawn to this degenerate society...a bit like a moth to a flame

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to Peaceful again

Stephanie 08 Sep 2007 19:04

and no, you didn't answer any of my questions. Not even close.

Now, about the Jews "practicing genital mutilation" on females.

Tell me another one, bud.

That kind of ridiculous comment totally undermines your credibility.

Is it possible you were thinking about circumcision, which is done on males, and which some silly people think of as mutilation?

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"Peaceful"

Vincent C 08 Sep 2007 19:07

As ever, it is unwise to use Wikipedia to make statements for you if you have no idea what you are talking about.

FGC is nowhere found as an expression of Christian culture, although it is possible that it exists in certain primitive societies in N Africa. It is however a considerable problem within islamic societies and is one of the reasons for western revulsion at the implications of islam for women, a subject which is becoming more widely known thanks to the courageous efforts of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others. Who have of course been issued with death threats by the "religion of peace".

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Vincent

Peaceful 08 Sep 2007 20:03


'As ever, it is unwise to use Wikipedia to make statements for you if you have no idea what you are talking about.'

It doesnt support ur extremist views? How bad. Thats how some people are, keep on saying, nothing to substantiate. Repeat as long as u want, it is a good exercise.

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Stephanie

Peaceful 08 Sep 2007 20:11

Its ur science n technology. We need to learn and take it back, improve it.
Before u have taken riches from colonies, now its our turn.

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A religion

Quietzapple 08 Sep 2007 20:19

of Peace, or otherwise, cannot issue death threats.

That can only be done by people or a person, who may hold a position in a religious organisation.

Those who speak in so vague a manner on so vital a topic have only evil in their minds in my view, they are seeking to rouse hatred by misleading us all.

Somehow I don't see the muslims I know or meet as crazies who seek power over the rest of us.

But I did recognise the islamo-fascists I worked with as dangers, as did the other muslims in that workplace.

The nonsense peddled here mostly by racists is making it more difficult to warn normal UK citizens about the Islamo-fascist menace, and to engage with normal muslims, as, I suppose, is the intention of the extremists of all kinds.

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This thread

Quietzapple 08 Sep 2007 20:30

makes it clear that it would be very informative for the country of domicile of posters to be made clear with their posts.

Those who feel that they are expats or living abroad could add the country they are from to the statement of their present location.

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Quietzapple

Maddie 08 Sep 2007 20:53

You always know the person who continually throws the race card around does so because they're unable to comment with reason.

And since when is religion a race? D'oh!

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"Peaceful"

Vincent C 08 Sep 2007 21:51

By all means, substantiate your claim that FGC is practised by Christians. I look forward to seeing you substantiate anything!



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Quietzapple

Vincent C 08 Sep 2007 21:54

You said, "a religion of peace...cannot issue death threats."

Perhaps you might ask Salman Rushdie to explain it for you?

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I believe the Ayatollah Khomeni

Quietzapple 09 Sep 2007 11:49

issued those death threats, which ahev probably been supported by others since.

Had every muslim been the sort of fanatic you make out Salman Rushdie, who is also a muslim, would be long gone.

Muslim support for such calls is alike to the appalling behaviour of some jews in the death camps, who betrayed their comrades. In an extreme social situation almost anyone (probably anyone) will behave in an extreme way.

You are attempting to enhance the problems, which is contemptible.

You do not have any excuse for your weaslly attempts to persecute normal muslims.

You haev far more in common with the Nazis of the 30s and WW2 than the average muslim has with the Islamo-fascists.

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Country of domicile

Quietzapple 09 Sep 2007 11:56

and origin please.

I doubt any of the other recent posters on this thread lives in the UK.

Maddie's point about race and religion not being the same is close to irrelevant.

It could not be more clear that the muslim haters here are racists, and I have no need to waste more time proving it. Only Nazis devilling for their reputations would trouble arguing the point.

By your hatreds and unreason are you known.

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a message to all muslims..

wendy 09 Sep 2007 12:21

if you wish people to respect you all, you should work hard and behave yourself to earn some respect and not bully your way around, hoping other people will somehow respect your intimidation or your belief. you have a right to believe what you like to believe but that does not give you the right to inconvenience others by your belief.

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I get on pretty well

Quietzapple 09 Sep 2007 12:50

with quite a few muslims, including my son's ladyfriend.

I also enjoyed my visit to Tunisia some years ago.

I wonder how many of those here pontificating re christianity are remotely christian?

"But I say to you: Love oneanother." I think I have the quote right . . .

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Quietzapple

Vincent C 09 Sep 2007 12:53

You do not state where you are - but since you can not tell the difference between race and religion, you probably have difficulty with maps.

You also have some difficulty with your comparison between the fatwas liberally issued from the safety of islamic states, and the situation of jewish people in concentration camps.

Salman Rushdie is no threat to anyone, but has had to live in fear of his life for many years. In Holland, Theo van Gogh was murdered for revealing to the world how islam treats women.

Nobody here hates muslims: it is islam which teaches hatred, and threatens people with death. Its adherents, from terrorists beheading and murdering innocent civilians, to the state of Iran which hangs gay teenagers from cranes, are practising mediaeval brutality in this very day and age.

We value our civilised way of life in the UK, where I live, and do not intend to allow it to be overthrown.

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quietzapple

wendy 09 Sep 2007 13:25

whether you personally get on with muslims and whether you are being taken for a ride or not is none of my business. but what i don't like is that the way they tried to take credit for other people achievement or insisting all sorts of subsidies and special rights be given to them just because they are muslims and the way they vainly spout their hatred and fatwa whenever it suits them and the way they arrogantly try to glorify their islam by their bullying and imposing on others and their hatred on others who do not agree with them.they have legs and arms like everybody else, so they should expect any special treatment..after all they are no cripple.

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correction..

wendy 09 Sep 2007 13:30

they should NOT expect any special treatment

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yes, i agree with you, Vincent C

wendy 09 Sep 2007 13:36

it is the muslims that teaches hatred..whenever they think they are abit rich or have abit power,or abit of knowledge they show their hatred towards us...( have personally encountered their hatred and abuse in malaysia and singapore)..they sure ain't nice people.._

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Vincent

Quietzapple 09 Sep 2007 14:11

you don't read do you?

I wrote: "I doubt any of the other recent posters on this thread lives in the UK." Pretty clear to anyone with a straightforward knowledge of English.

Ypu don't see the analogy between how jews behaved uneder the pressures of the death camps and how people in those muslim countries often feel compelled to follow the dictates of islamo-fascists and the like then?

You are still falsely viewing all muslims as an evil for reasons which are entirely clear cut.

We in the UK value our tolerance as an ongoing and historical factor in our country's development; we are all decended from immigrants, and the knowledgable treat with contempt the ignorance of the well educated who should know better, but choose to feign ignorance for racist reasons.

It remains true that no religion issues death threats, and that indiduals commit murders for their motives.

Your depersonalisation of the guilty is folly, ennacted for reasons which, carried into certain practices, are illegal in the UK, thankfully.

Let us hope you have no influence on the standards of British behaviour which new immigrants are to be instructed in.


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Quietzapple

Miko 09 Sep 2007 14:26

"It remains true that no religion issues death threats, that individuals commit murders for their motives." What you are saying is true as a religion is an ideology and therefore cannot issue death threats, but an individual can, because of an ideology issue death threats. Islam is the influence behind the death threats, the political aspects of the Koran are the problem not the muslim that gets influenced by them they merely acerbate the problem but they don't cause it, Islam does.

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Oh dear . . .

Quietzapple 09 Sep 2007 15:02

Perhaps it is time to admit that the UK robbed Iraq of its oil and Malaysia of its rubber for many years?

I wonder that they do not hate us all more than some of them do.

Some of the attitudes here are so stupid as to be beyond belief, just heading straight for WW3.

The muslims I know in the UK all pay their own way without any benefits. None of them is hysterical, and wendy is calling the pot black . . .

Whoops!

Fortunately I have other other things to do, so am leaving the last words on this miserable, Nazi dominated thread to someone else . . .

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people

Miko 09 Sep 2007 15:25

don't seem to be able to discuss these issues without going over the top. Could we have less stridency in the debate?

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is it not true that...

wendy 09 Sep 2007 15:34

...........

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Hmm

Miko 09 Sep 2007 15:51

I guess not

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Death threats

Vincent C 09 Sep 2007 16:14

Quietzapple would like to insist that "tt remains true that no religion issues death threats" but that is simply not the case. Fatwas are issued by ayatollahs and other senior religious leaders representing islam, with a call to any muslim with the opportunity to carry out the sentence.

The accusations of "racism" are equally bizarre. Islam claims to be a religion, and is found among people of many races, not one. There is no such thing as a "muslim race".

Fortunately the authorities in this country seem to have woken up to the fact that islam is breeding violent revolution both in the UK and in the countries to which its members go to receive indoctrination and armed training. Those who issue death threats here are likely to find themselves, quite properly, facing a long prison sentence and/or deportation.

And seriously, what possible threat does Salman Rushdie represent to a mullah in Iran!

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Quietzapple

Maddie 09 Sep 2007 17:12

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

In case it is not evident, I am from the USA (you know, the Great Satan).

Mohammed used violence, including assassination, to defeat and convert men to Islam. He is guilty of murder, including by beheadings and crucifixion, rape, torture, kidnapping, extortion, slavery, mutilations, theft, adultery, false witness, abuse of women physically and sexually, and abuse of at least one child, slaughtered unbelievers and masterminded over 60 masacres. This is their "Prophet".

Jesus converted by teaching, persuasion, and example. He never used force, and would not allow His disciples to use force, even when His enemies attacked him.

These are facts. Whether you believe in the Bible or Quran is irrelevant, as these are the representations for the people who do.

I have no idea why stating facts is rascist to you, but that is YOUR PROBLEM.

Personally, I believe the strongest advocates against militant Islam is moderate Muslims. Can you imagine if this enormous population stepped forward, say, after the "cartoon" rioting, and protested themselves with placards that said "we will NOT kill in the name of Allah", or "we DON'T want Islam to rule the world", or "we believe in freedom of speech", or "UK, Sharia Law is NOT coming", or any other number of rebukes to the fanatics who have supposedly hijacked their religion.

Go lay some flowers on Neville Chamberlain's grave Quietzapple, and get out of the way.



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really

tiger tank 09 Sep 2007 19:24

I thought the idea of having these books available was to monitor who was actually reading this rubbish. We have to face the simple fact that most texts of islamic fundamentalism are written in the west because in islamic countries the authors would be beheaded for heresy at least. a lot of muslim fundamentalists must be losing heart with osama bin ladens latest video - that is a very sick man. It seems strange that muslims do not see their star again setting. Afghanis refer to pakistan as India, which means there is a view which we in the west are not seeing. perhaps the india which mahatma Gandhi wanted to see will be coming and the islamic fundamentalism was just the last outpourings of a rabid sect from saudi. With Iraq soon to split, next will be iran and saudi arabia itself because they failed to make the jump to a secular state. This means their populations will be ready to dump their ruling classes in a manner reminiscent of the french revolution.

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Unfortunately I don't think

amicus 09 Sep 2007 21:01

fundamentalist islam seems to be losing heart Tiger Tank. Looks like it's on a roll to me.

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What the hell?

Bertie C 10 Sep 2007 02:44

"Muslim support for such calls is alike to the appalling behaviour of some jews in the death camps, who betrayed their comrades. In an extreme social situation almost anyone (probably anyone) will behave in an extreme way."

Talk about apples an oranges. What extreme situation are would we be talking about exactly?

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What the hell?

Bertie C 10 Sep 2007 02:44

"Muslim support for such calls is alike to the appalling behaviour of some jews in the death camps, who betrayed their comrades. In an extreme social situation almost anyone (probably anyone) will behave in an extreme way."

Talk about apples an oranges. What extreme situation are would we be talking about exactly?

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i have experienced living in the western world and the asian/muslim world,

wendy 10 Sep 2007 15:59

and though living in the western world is pretty tough, but at least it is a more trustworthy, more democratic, and a more secure environment compared to the scary,unstable,hateful vibes,foul, vile, evil world of asian/muslims world. it is strange why muslims seek to bring their bad culture/bad practices to the west, when they come to the west.

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Women's voices

Vincent C 10 Sep 2007 16:39

It is fascinating to read the experiences which western women have had in islamic countries: the absolute male domination of islamic society and the subjection of women to their fathers, husbands etc, which extends to the treatment of non-muslim women as second-class human beings. This attitude to women stands out perhaps even more than the many other forms of discrimination prescribed by islam.

There appears to be a strict hierachy at the pinnacle of which is the male muslim. Women have no identity other than as someone's daughter (pending marriage) or as someone's wife or polygamous partner. There is contempt for Christians and especially Jews, and although in theory they are to be treated less unkindly than non-muslims, in practice there is little distinction, as seen in Saudi.
Unbelievers have no instrinsic human value and are to be swept away to make room for a universal islamic society. Until then they can be exploited and taxed.

It is all so utterly alien to a civilisation in which the equal rights, humanity and dignity of every person are paramount in the ordering of society, and fundamentally incompatible with such western traditions. It can only succeed here by demanding and being given special privileges, and these - like the proposed mega-mosque - must be resisted. There can only be peace where there is equal respect on both sides: and it seems to me that islam is ultimately incapable of reforming itself so as to achieve peaceful integration into western society. It can only contemplate domination, and power, and the rights of men over women.

We can only have peace where the rule of law is upheld. And that means equality before the law for women and men.

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muslims women too is as guilty as muslims men,

wendy 10 Sep 2007 22:35

in their blatant discrimination (eg in malaysia) and inability to respect our individualism,and for treating most nonmuslims in contempt. muslims women as well as muslims men are also guilty of being extremely manipulative, exploitive, rigidly imposing their negative values on us in their vain quest to glorify their islam.

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