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Michael Tomasky

Wright and wrong

US elections 2008: As Obama must address the controversial remarks made by the former pastor of his Chicago church, Jeremiah Wright

March 14, 2008 8:30 PM | Printable version

For more than a year, I've thought that Barack Obama's most exposed achilles heel would be Jeremiah Wright. I guess we're about to find out.

Wright, who just retired (not a moment too soon!) as pastor of Obama's Chicago church, is, there isn't much doubt, something of a black nationalist-radical. He says all the things you'd expect from such a worldview, on American sin and guilt, white crimes, Israel and so on. In an unusually nimble, if that's the right word, trifecta, he visited Libya and Muammar Gadafy with Louis Farrakhan back in the 1980s, thus efficiently combining a rogue state, a terrorist supporter (in those days) and a raging antisemite into a mere one week's work.

Video footage of some of Wright's sermons have just started surfacing on YouTube. His church, having clearly decided that its financial fortunes are worth a few blots on the escutcheon of its most famous parishioner, has begun selling videos of Wright's sermons. The Clinton oppo people, usually a seemingly overtaxed lot, evidently didn't have to lift a finger.

Wright's single most incendiary remark, at least among those so far revealed, was delivered from the pulpit - did I mention, too, his showman's sense of timing? - the first Sunday after September 11:

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and the black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

We can debate the factual merits of Wright's arguments, but let's leave all that aside. The issue here is the political problem this represents for Obama, which should be obvious enough.

Obama says he didn't attend church that day (a demerit in the eyes of some in and of itself, I suppose) and so did not hear the offending words. This takes off the table the question of whether the candidate should have stalked out and risen to challenge the thunderous orator, assuming no other parishioner comes forward and suddenly remembers that Obama was indeed there.

His initial responses to questions about Wright have not been forceful or thorough enough. Wright married Barack and Michele Obama and baptised their two daughters. He has to do more to explain why he wanted his children baptised by this man.

In my years covering New York politics, I got to know black radical preachers and others. I've sat in numerous pews at black churches and heard, several times, words that would shock your average white American, words met with cheers and whoops and hollers.

These experiences taught me to think of the black church as a kind of release valve for African-Americans. During the rest of the week, they're in white America, and they have to behave according to our rules. Above all or at least most else, they can't seem like angry black people and expect to get job promotions and so forth. But if you're black, you must have some degree of anger about life in the United States, and it has to get out somewhere. I've always felt the churches played that role.

I should hasten to add that that isn't the only or even the major role black churches play in parishioners' lives. The sweet, begloved and behatted old ladies I've met at black churches are just like the sweet, begloved and behatted old ladies at the Episcopal church of my youth, and gorgeous little children marched off to Sunday school just as the less-than-gorgeous I once did. So black churches play the normal role that all churches play, and of course a very constructive social-justice role.

We know, from Obama's own testimony from his first book - written, remember, before he was in politics - that it was the more positive social-justice element of Wright's teachings that first attracted him. Obama writes in Dreams From My Father that Harold Washington, the first black mayor of Chicago, had just died.

Obama, like all of black Chicago and a good chunk of white and brown Chicago, was prostrate in remorse. He attended Wright's church, just sort of wandering in as he tells it, and Wright that Sunday delivered a sermon urging his parishioners not to be sad but to celebrate Washington's life and carry on his work. The sermon was called The Audacity of Hope, which of course is the title of Obama's more recent (and more political) book. So Wright made Obama a church-going man, and Obama has stayed loyal.

From what we know about Obama, which by now is a lot, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't have a hating bone in his body. And we should remember that we're basically dealing with a number of quotes that, compared to the number of sentences Wright has written and spoken in a 40-year career, probably amount to a small percentage of the total output. So it may be that Wright preached affirmatively the majority of the time, and in a hateful way from time to time, and to Obama it was a case of, "Oh, it's one of those weeks again, is it? All right, get it over with."

But that is not the impression white Americans will get from the 9/11 sermon video, in which parishioners are cheering Wright's words. Having attended maybe 25, 30 or so black church services as a political reporter, I think I have some understanding (I'm not claiming expertise, just some understanding) of what it's like and why views like Wright's controversial ones get aired.

But your average white American will not understand this at all. The image projected by the Wright of these videos is completely at odds with the image Obama puts forward of himself. Voters' confusion in the face of that contradiction is completely fair game, and Obama must address it more convincingly than he has. I expect that sooner or later, he'll have no choice.

Update: Shortly after this article appeared online, Obama published a piece in the Huffington Post responding to Wright's comments and explaining in more detail his relationship to his former pastor. You can read it here.

For more blogs on the US elections, click here.


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USA

Is this the first contradiction you have noticed? Whats with the bamboozeled, hoodwinked and other strange speaches Obama has given at mostly black gatherings?

Me sees a politician talking out of both sides of his mouth. Thats ok, they all do it but this is the first anyone is talking about it.

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USA

Obama addresses these concerns on Huffington Post.

www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html

Mr. Tomasky perhaps did not emphasize enough that Trinity United Church of Christ is not some kind of "black power" organization. White people are welcome there as visitors and as members. Some hysterical types believe that whites will be bludgeoned at the door if they venture into black churches.

Interesting that Jeremiah Wright is described as a "black nationalist radical" after all the blather about "Obama isn't black, he's mixed race". Dr. Wright is lighter in skin tone than Obama - there's obviously plenty of race-mixing in his background. But then nobody ever describes scary black people as anything but black, even when they're "damn near white" like Rev. Wright.

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USA

this is getting traction on talk radio - about time. Obama has been quoted as saying 'words matter' - can't wait to see how he explains these.

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USA

Deleted by moderator.

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USA

"From what we know about Obama, which by now is a lot, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't have a hating bone in his body."

Why does he need one, since his supporters have enough to do "hate bone" transplants on the entire populaion of China, probably his minister's alone would suffice.

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USA

Michael sums it up really well. Black churches are indeed many things, including a safety valve. There's certainly a tradition of saying things 'for effect' to get the congregation's attention, get them thinking and talking about an issue. (Much like Rush Limbaugh et al, when you thing about it.) But yes, people outside that particular church tradition, whose ministers take a quite different approach, are certainly going to ask questions.

Perhaps Obama can encourage his church to release the videos of the more 'boring' sermons to YouTube, just to show they exist. Maybe his supporters can put together a 'Best Moments' mix. I have no idea. But I agree, someone better do something, and soon. One piece in HuffPo isn't going to do it.

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USA

I just saw this and I'm feeling led astray.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y7OFLl3asg

This makes Scientology look mainstream.

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USA

Mr T: if anything I will give you credit for being the best Obama's-related stories spinner in the world - G. Ferraro makes a comment for you enough to call her bigot and racist; Obama's pastor blames 911 on US and you find a candid story to justify him ('oh...we need to understand what black have gone through...etc').

As its been said: 'Never understimated a liberal's ability to rationalize irrationality'.

I guess it can be adapted to: 'Never understimate an Obama's supporter ability to rationalize irrationality'.

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USA

I just read Obama's bs on the Huffington post. I have to admit i was wrong about him. I thought he was a good guy, with whom I disagreed with. His b.s. response after 20 years of supporting jeremiah, proves me wrong. He's a bad guy, a liar and a fraud. Denounces things only when they begin to harm him? Crap to you Obama.

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NZL

This has to be a real problem.
Michael is right about Obama not having a hating bone in his body and it's obvious from his book that he's sincere about wanting change and unity.
The trouble is it fits into a pattern that the right-wing media will play up to suggest Obama isn't swimming in the mainstream. The Chicago radicals, Michelle Obama's comments, Farrakhan. There will be voters out there forming opinions about Obama who will be concerned about it.
Obama has put out a strong statement but people will wonder why Obama was in that church so long.

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USA

Sorry Living Large, not buying it. This is classic. You were never an Obama supporter, were you? Jeremiah Wright is his own person. If you wouldn't vote for Obama because of what his pastor said, you were never going to vote for Obama. Which is all right, it's just the BS that's hard to take.

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USA

Michelle Obama's comments are starting to come together.

This is the first time she's proud to be an American.

Even Chirac right after 9/11 said " We are all Americans ". Well all the world but Michelle Obama.

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NZL

Elections are wars of perceptions. Unfortunately, rightwingers can have nutbar evangelists supporting them and it doesn't really hurt. It doesn't work the other way round, though.

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USA

Is it not enough that you with your entitlement from the Guardian is doing it for him. For that matter why not publish the sermons of all the fucking priests of all the god dam each and every church and place of worship, and such congregation in the US. Even better, let have the prayers said each morning before every session of the US Congress and Bush Cabinet meetings that follow war talk, mismanagement, misappropriation of tax payers money by these second best to child molester politicians.

At the same time why not let the public see what goes on in the private sanctimonious chambers of all these religious icons of society.

Obama has no more influence on what the pastor of the church that he attends then the British Queen or the British Prime Minister has on the bishops of the British Anglican Churches.

For that matter all the fornication that goes on before and after the hypocrites show up to absolve their sins and be forgiven to start over again.

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USA

Any candidate running against Obama can run two adds:

1. The Honorable Reverend Wright - America's chickens are coming home to roost."

2. Obama: There Will Be Bamboozling II

Enough said.

Hillary and Bill are poppin the corks right now.

I wonder were the video came from? A lot of churches record sermons for playback on CD's or even Ipod's. If this one from 2001 is still around I'll bet it's just the tip of the iceberg. Wonder how many more the Clintons have stashed away for a slow news week?

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CAN

--Michael Tomasky,

You know the drill so no need to repeat it here, but it is clear a litmus test has been set for Barack Obama which is great deal higher than the two other candidates both of whom who voted for the Iraq War!The Following Motherjone's link tells a story about McCain's spiritual leader calling for the total destruction of Islam and Muslims!
Where is the media ourcry on this?

This partial litmus test set for Barack Obama will most certainly destroy Barack Obama's candidacy. Frankly, I can care less, let McCain or Hillary come to power and continue with their destruction of the world. At the end, non will be more sorry than those who use "Anti-Semitism" as a never ending litmus test of Candidates who is already in the pocket of AIPAC!.

Because it is ridiculous to ask Barack Obama to constantly answer fantastic rants of L Farkhan, R. Wright or others. The guy is so pro AIPAC it is not funny. If liberal media continues humiliating Obama, the black, and yes and others, will not vote for the democratic ticket no matter who is candidate. I think it is about time media exercise some judicious restraint and take Obama to task on those matters which has control over.

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html

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GBR

Goldengate - "Obama has no more influence on what the pastor of the church that he attends"

Just the one church in the area then?

The Times report that Obama has has described Wright as his 'sounding board' in the past.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3555561.ece

Now that is really scary

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USA

Obama's explanation in the HuffPost won't wash. I look at it this way: if my pastor, whom I otherwise admired, was saying things like this, I would have to leave. And it's not as if these comments were only occasional -- they were part and parcel of his ministry. I could not -- and you could not -- simply ignore this. The upshot is that I have no idea what Obama really thinks. Believe me, this will not go well with the vast white majority he would need to win against McCain, no matter what baggage McCain must carry.

Another thing -- how much more will we get to know about this candidate? What else is out there, ready to derail him and give us 4 more years of Republican misrule?

IT'S GOT TO BE HILLARY!! OBAMA CAN'T WIN!!

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GBR

Wright's comments are not that much different from what Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said after 9/11. They both blamed America's sins for the attacks. On the Sept 13, 2001, edition of the 700 Club, Falwell said, "what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, if in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve." Robertson seemed to agree with Falwell's analysis.

Considering that John McCain courted Falwell before he died, and gave a major speech at Liberty University before he declared his candidacy, should we try to impugn his character by associating McCain's own beliefs with Falwell's?

Or what of Billy Graham's anti-semitic remarks to Nixon? Considering that Graham was a close spiritual advisor to George Bush, should we suppose that he shares Graham's views?

It is one thing to share religious views, and another to share political ones. Anything other conclusion is specious--good fodder for the news cycle, but utterly without merit.

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NZL

The problem for Obama is it isn't simply a matter of being able to say: 'I don't agree with his views'.
It's a problem of judgement.
Why was he in that church for 20 years with a pastor like that?
He has the same problem with Rezko. Why was he friends with a guy like that?
Personally I think he comes across as a tolerant guy who likes to think through different points of view.
But the perception is not good and it weakens his argument that he has good judgement.

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USA

I thought that Obama would be an excellent President or Vice President of the United States, but not now nor ever because as a member of Trinity United Church he must agree with Pastor Jeremiah Wright 's hate of whites in the United States. Because Barack Hussein Obama has been a member of Trinity United Church of Christ in the south side of Chicago for nearly 20 years he has exposed his two young daughters to the sermons of Pastor Jeremiah Wright, and it is disturbing that he allows them to be indoctrinated by the sermons of hate by Pastor Jeremiah Wright such as the following: "On the Sunday following 9/11, [Pastor Jeremiah] Wright described the attacks as retribution for the bombing of Hiroshima, America's policy in the Middle East, and apartheid in South Africa. Obama has told reporters he was not in church that day [what about other days during the past 20 years]. Wright retired from the church last month [probably was forced to retire so as not to be associated with Barack Hussein Obama]." Pastor's hellfire sermons put Obama's campaign in hot water, Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington, The Guardian, Friday March 14 2008
The content of Pastor Jeremiah Wright's sermons sound similar to the statements of the terrorists that hate the citizens of the United States and threaten to destroy us.

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USA

Well, this could be Obama's Sister Souljah moment.

So far at least, it appears he doesn't recognize the peril he's in, or the opportunity he has to turn it in his favor.

If he fails to take action, it will reflect badly on his judgment. We shall know after tonight's broadcasts.

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CAN

,

America's leaders have been committing death and destruction in the Muslim world, in Latin America and in Africa. America is going down the drain not because what J, Wright had to say but because elected leaders failed this nation. Since fear and smear tactics are the only politics America seem to be capable of, let them bring down Barack Obama-- and see who suffers from such political pathology of fear driven culture. This is truly pathetic.
Barack Obama is 46, a US senator- therefore- he is already serving his country. What is clear is the US is no man's land as far as rational politics of informed debate on the issues is concerned. It is truly sad place

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USA

Twenty years in that church and he managed to miss all the disgusting remarks of his religious leader, the man he went to for advice. And nobidy told him about those remarks when he did show up at the church. I guess all the rest of the parishioners thought they were such commonplace remarks by Wright that not being out of the ordinary there was no reason to discuss them. Yet Ferraro got hung out to dry for far less. Fact is if Obama was a white man who belonged to a church whose leader was five percent as vile as Wright, he would instantly be put aside as a viable candidate. The outcome of this will be that racial divisions in this country will be worsened by Obama's candidacy now that it has come to light that he belongs to a racist anti-American anti-semitic church. The "death of Harold Washington made me do it" defense is just pathetic. Nice work by Obama. Polarize a political party and a nation in one fell swoop. The audacity of hope has turned into the audacity of the sneak. How many white votes can he expect now if he is the democratic nominee? Let's see if he has the audacity to leave the primary fight for the good of his party and his country.

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USA

Halgeel:

McCain's accepting the endorsement of a dodgy preacher isn't at all the same as attending a church run by a radical for 20 years and contributing heavily thereto.

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GBR

What the Pastor said was true.
Where is the problem?
.
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and the black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

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CAN

--GodfreydeBouillon,

Do you think the J Wright is more controversial than Billy Graham or his son? Frankly, the US media and the ruling elite seem to be at home with limited types of George W. Bush sort--so let them elect McCain to carry out the hundred year Crusade and see who will be sorry in ten years time- when China establish solid relationships with Africa and Latin America and Europe can longer cover for American political blunders. The world will not collapse if the US media to brings Barack Obama because he has the capacity to change how things are done in the US--or will US citizens seize the moment and back him up? It is not my call.

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NZL

MerkinOnParis: There's loads of comments out there. Fox News keeps running one of him shouting "the United States of KKK-A"

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/14/obama_condemns_pastors_remarks.html?hpid=topnews

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GBR

Obama's pastor, Jeremiah Wright, said in 2001: "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and the black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

Michael Tomasky comments: "We can debate the factual merits of Wright's arguments..."

Except we can't. Especially if the "we" Tomasky refers to are Americans and the "debate" is to be mainstream. Instead, what many would consider to be the most important issue facing the US population and the rest of the world, has been taken off the agenda by the corporate media and cynically used as a stick to discipline and silence a potentially progressive presidential candidate. We can debate Hilary's haircut or Obama's middle name, but the one thing we are NOT allowed to do, particularly during election times, is to debate real issues and make real choices.

Tomasky goes on to says: "...but let's leave all that aside. The issue here is the political problem this represents for Obama, which should be obvious enough."

Indeed it is. Yet it doesn't occur to Tomasky to ask why it is so outrageous for a pastor to question US foreign policy, and why Obama must excuse his guilt by association or face political anililation. The inescapable conclusion is that the central tenet of liberal democracy, that freedom of speech prevails and voters get to decide in a climate of equality, is a sugar-coated lie.

Obama has already had to retract his earlier call for an even handed approach to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in order to get what Schmuel Rosner, the chief US correspondent of Israel's Haaretz newspaper, described as "Jewish money". Obama's commitment to Israeli military actions is now, in his own words, "total".
http://21stcenturysocialism.com/article/barack_obamas_middle_east_surge_01436.html

It is possible to feel some sympathy for Obama's predicament. He is a talented man who does, after all, want to win an election. His choices, just like those facing the electorate, are circumscribed by political and economic forces greater than himself. Obama may well be sincere in his desire to achieve a vaguely defined "change" in the United States. And it is doubtful that his sudden conversion to Zionism came from the heart. But he also knows that he is a political prisoner of the corporate interest groups he says he wants to liberate Americans from, and also a captive of what is mesleadingly called the free press.

Obama's campaign slogan: "Yes We Can", appears to be inspiring millions of Americans. Unfortunately, its true meaning may be closer to "no we can't". A piece published yesterday on my website put it succinctly:

"...the formal freedoms and equalities of pluralist political systems exist in the context of the extremes of wealth of liberal capitalism. Wealth buys newspapers and journalists, donates to political parties and civil society groups, pays the costs of organisation and campaigning... Thus the formal freedoms and equalities of democratic pluralism interact with and in the end express, in most cases, the real underlying relationships, the enormous inequalities of wealth and power, within countries and between countries."
http://21stcenturysocialism.com/article/against_the_people_01620.html

Calvin Tucker
Co-editor http://21stcenturysocialism.com
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/calvin_tucker/profile.html

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USA

Calvin Tucker and Miss Merkin, you have missed the point as usual.

It is simply bad politics to be associated with the likes of Jeremiah Wright. If Obama doesn't take action, it will be another punch in his rail ticket to political oblivion.

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CAN

This is part of kitchen sink strategy. After 2000 and 2004, African Americans can see the light -- If Obama is brought down- they will stay home and McCain will win- welcome to least 4 more years of Bush policy-- now Hillary has shown her true face to the African Americans and African Americans can see treatment their star candidate is receiving and after Katrina-- 2000, 2004, black Americans are not going to vote for the democratic party out of necessity as they once did-- black America is asserting itself and it is creating some anxiety- it seems. Ferraro-'s comment and Hillary's 3 A.M red phone recall Willie Horton and the Birth of a Nation!

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AUT

But it is nothing compared to McCain's psycho spiritual guide:

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html

I know he will get sympathies from some of you people.

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USA

Hmmmm,

Now, will Middle, left and Right America get upset because "Religion", which is our basis of survival in America, brings down their prize candidate?

I Blame Obama for taking up Religion in the first place.

As for that Pastor...he was dead on when he said that Bill Clinton is doing to black people, what he (Bill) was doing to Monica.

The best part about this is that the Repulbicans are smiling all the way to tha Bank.....Yeah BABY!!!!

WE GOT McCain....Attack Pilot, Redneck, Bought and Paid for by Lobbyist and Military Industrial Complex and a sure fire War with that Midget in Iran.....

God, you could not have written a better script.

Spitzer....fell to the power of the Vagina

Obama....knocked down by the Power of Religion...

Hillary....evil Incarnate....who will ensure that we get 8 more years of Repulbicans in tha White House.....

I am enjoying this freak show on my flat panel HDTV.

Cheers!

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USA

The minister stated that the government created HIV to kill off people of color. "White" America and white people in general are portrayed as evil, murdering, etc. That is racism. Black people that are Republicans are ridiculed.

Does Obama really believe that this view makes America better?
He apparently feels instead that America and "whites" deserve no defense from the person who wants to be a president.

If we are to disregard this racism, then all racism is this country should be disregarded. It is either unacceptable or it is acceptable. There is no way it can be ok for one race and not the other.

McCain may be just as bad, if so I certainly hope the press starts digging into it.

We need to know.

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GBR

How many Sundays are there in 20 years?

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Hey PresidentD, would you agree that all the others that attend this particular church need a bit of attention too?

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USA

That was Mr.Kng continues to ricochet
middle name, madrssa, furtive hearsay.
We look for ADL.
are they hiding in tower of denial?
it is when and what ADL means to construe
like yellow ribbon from Kabul to Iranian brew.

Mr King of Iowa improved his distant vision
finding dancing rogue in far flung land

While his sharp nose has made him miss
has compromised his near optics
the dancing Five on New Jersey turnpike.
on White Van enjoying that Septemeber shriek.
New world quiet on additional to that
Rod Parsley the boyish frat
on Columbus and Islam
next to McCains on Ohio podium.
How Barak can rear guard achille's Hussain
Antichrist coming in between Hagee and Glenn.

Poor Barak , how is going to fare
when the field is full with mousetrap and tripwire.

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USA

I continue to be amazed at some of the remarks I read. This Wright faults the U.S. for World War II. I tend to believe the history books and not this nut.
The U.S. chose not to take part in W.W.II until the attack on Pearl Harbor. We were attacked and responded to the attack in an honorable fashion. What do nuts like Wright expect the U.S. to do when attacked? How many fatalities did we suffer on the attack on Pearl Harbor? Japan made the mistake of attacking us and till this day I'm sure they regret it. And,contrary to Wrights view,the atom bombs were probably the humane thing to do. I know it saved American lifes and I think Japanese. If you know anything about the Pacific island battles,you will know how horrific this war was.
And,then you have Hitler and Europe. With all the terrible loss of life before before the U.S. declared war on Germany,I think we should have aided Europe and declared war earlier. Ho w many lifes did we save by liberating most of Europe from Hitler. Let the Wrights and these other nuts of the world ask the Europeans if they are glad the U.S. stepped in and declared war. Can you fathom what the world would be like if the U.S. hadn't intervened? Most,if not all the world,controlled by the Hitlers and Stalins of the world.
One final comment and let me say this is in no way racial. If Wright doesn't like what he has here,let him haul his ass to Africa or wherever he wants to go. To the Sheens and the O'Donnels in the U.S. don't like our policys,let them haul their asses somewhere else. They can't offer anything constructive,it's always some malicious attack on Bush.
Oh,I have one more thought on Wright. I think he is blaming the wrong party.The Democrats have caused the minorities to be in the plight their in. They are crammed into the inner-citys in public housing,given a check and told by the Democrats such as the Clintons,we love you man!
Were just like you and we feel your pain. BS. The Democrats all tell the same old sad story as they accumulate their fortunes. The Clintons have sucked in a fortune of $40 million as they shamelessly grab every dollar they can beg,borrow or steal. All the while telling the poor we're just like you and vote for me and I'll see you share in the wealth of the U.S has. B.S. I live in rural Kentucky and lived as poor as church mouse in my childhood. We lived in houses with no indoor water or bathrooms. We were a family of six and I can remember living on $115 a month from the V.A as my dad had landed on D-Day and got a small check after becoming disabled.
Due to the circumstances we were in I quit high school,joined the Army and volunteered for Viet Nam. I made my judgement based on my situation and the idea we were at war with the Communists. right or wrong that's what I did. I bring all this up as the Democrats are shouting to minorities,don't let Bush take advantage of you and enter the military. The military should be viewed as serving your country and getting your ass out of the ghetto or wherever your at. You can earn a nice salary,further your education and live a better life.
The military is just 1 option to do something with your life. The Democrats want to keep you under their thumb as they have done for generations. Whatever it takes to break out of poverty,do it! Don't listen to these con artists telling you your time to share the wealth is coming. It won't. As long as you live in their housing,draw a little check and believe their BS your just where they want you!.

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USA

Obama gave his church $22K in 2006, don't know about other years, Wright is on his campaign staff. Hardly "arm's length".

As for Rezko, the more interesting question is who lent him the money to lend to BO ? Hint, he lives in the UK.

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USA

Tomasky is right; this is a black thing.

As the step-parent of a mixed race child, I have some exposure to black culture and Wright was saying things that are often heard in the black community. Especially from men of his generation.

However I am not sure that most (non-black) voters can see this -- including some of the posters above.

Obama is hitting the Friday night talk shows currently, hopefully he can pull this thing around.

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GBR

Where was the fuss when McCain called Washington D.C the 'city of Satan' which he did a week ago. Not a word of it has been discussed. He gets a free pass from the media and Obama is smared with association by a ranting pastor.

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GBR

Yak40,

"Obama gave his church $22K in 2006, don't know about other years, Wright is on his campaign staff. Hardly "arm's length"."

What did the church in 2006 do with the money? What do most churches do with tithes? In what capacity was Wright in his campaign?

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CAN


Obama is inspiring the youth who are our future- why are we bring him down? I sent my child url link of an story of story of Barack's mother's[new York Times] and here is what he/she had to say in response:


"Hi mom,

That was a beautiful article. What a spunky woman! An 800 page thesis on blacksmithing in peasant villages of Indonesia.... wonderful.... I hope Barack remembers her legacy and carries it on..

Love,"

this is why we should be talking about- how he is inspiring the youth rather than bring him down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/14/us/politics/14obama.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1205490272-seVMZ3q6dWBo65Fxa9cUeQ&oref=slogin

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USA

Seen any TBN or CBN broadcasts recently?

What this has got to do with the Presidential campaign is beyond me. We just have this habit of trying to get to a candidate through any association they might have -- anything rather than talk about issues.

At least Wright isn't a mullah....yesterday Obama was a secret Muslim...who knows what tomorrow will bring...

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USA

"But if you're black, you must have some degree of anger about life in the United States, and it has to get out somewhere. I've always felt the churches played that role."

What African-American churches do you go to, Tomasky? The ones I've been to as a European-American always feature fine gospel singing, eloquent call-n-responce from preacher to congregation, and heartfelt sermons on the need of the black community to support the less fortunate and abjure drugs. Then the nice church ladies offer fried chicken and cake.

I've never been to an "angry" or anti-white black church service. I don't recognize the reality you claim to describe.

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USA

Well, I expected this thread to pull all the Clinton supporters out of the woodwork, and I wasn't disappointed.

Try googling for 'cia blowback'.
Are you ready to trash everyone in the CIA because they point out the obvious? Yes, there are indeed consequences to actions. Sometimes they're worth it, sometimes they're not. Some people look down the road and see them coming, some prefer close their eyes, cover their ears and hum - and act totally surprised when night follows day. Newsflash: that doesn't stop any of this from happening. Deal with it.

You're shocked by Wright? Well I'm shocked by John Hagee, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and a whole list of others. Hagee believes the US is 'destined' to join with Israel to invade Iran. (Now THAT'S where the religious guidance crosses way too far over the line to political guidance for me.) Hagee endorsed McCain, after both he and Huckabee SOUGHT that endorsement - where were all of you then? Back in 2000, John McCain called Jerry Falwell an "agent of intolerance." Now they're best friends forever. So where are your going-ballistic posts demanding McCain get out of the race? Apparently you think that's just peachy-keen.

But wow - someone else's minister gives some typical fire-and-brimstone sermons and you're shocked - shocked! - that any minister would say such things. Read Cotton Mather - there's a long American tradition of this stuff, starting with the Puritans from England.

It's what ministers do. If every church member in America left their church because they disagreed with their minister, we wouldn't have any church members at all.

How much do you know about Hillary's friends? Her 'spiritual advisors'? (No, I'm not talking about the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt.) You think Denise Rich's $400,000 donation to the Clinton Library was just a nice little thank-you for the pardoning of Marc Rich? Well that bothers me a lot more than whatever Wright says. And what bothers me even more is that the Clintons refuse to release the list of donors. I assume that means there are bigger donations from even more dodgy people. That's more troubling to me than the recent dog-whistle comments. What people do the Clintons owe favors to, and how much?

Now get your priorities straight and stop jumping on every bandwagon that happens by.

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GBR

BarkingBird,

"I've never been to an "angry" or anti-white black church service. I don't recognize the reality you claim to describe."

You should stick with one for 20 years and get back with us. I get the point you are trying to make. I am sure not every sermon of Rev. Wright was one where he was breathing fire and brimstone. Maybe about the homosexuals but apparently thats acceptable.

You have to admit BB that this is a bit silly and so typical of the superficiality of politics in America. I miss home though.

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USA

Fairness, unfairness, the sociology of black churches, and all that have nothing to do with this. Politics creates its own slippery slope, and Obama has been tumbling down for the past day or so for not having the foresight to see, some years ago, that his "spiritual mentor" was a time bomb waiting to go off if he were not ditched in favor of a much blander brand of religiosity. In its way, and without any suggeston of moral equivalence, Obama's loyalty to this guy was as stupid as Spitzer's inability to constrain his sexual greed. Politics is very unforgiving of this kind of misstep, and as the story builds, one has a palpable sense of the superdelegates quietly slipping away as Hilary tightens her grip on the remaining primaries. I don't say that Obama is toast quite yet, but the flames are beginning to singe.

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USA

This story is all over the American news programs this evening, and I must admit that it is absolutely fascinating to me. I have never seen a leading candidate self-destruct so completely (except perhaps Dean 4 years ago). This is an incredible melt-down.

"Breaking News!" "We interrupt showing the video of Barack's rabid, foaming pastor to show you amazing video of Obama's crazy, hateful pastor!"

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GBR

shorty4407,

"If Wright doesn't like what he has here,let him haul his ass to Africa or wherever he wants to go."

There have been alot of people, alot of groups in America, who didnt like what they had or didnt have in this country. However, because this was their country, they had every right to be here, complain, campaign, vote, not vote, demonstrate, and riot on occasion. Why would you suggest to a non African person to go to Africa?


" I bring all this up as the Democrats are shouting to minorities,don't let Bush take advantage of you and enter the military. The military should be viewed as serving your country and getting your ass out of the ghetto or wherever your at. You can earn a nice salary,further your education and live a better life."

While the Democrats are shouting to minorities not to join the millitary, the Republicans are telling everyone, other than their children to join. I dont really know if what I am saying is true but it does sound just as ridiculous as what you said about the Dems.

I am not here to debate the merits of joining the millitary. I know that there are a whole host of benefits. However, the millitary isnt for everyone. It isnt everyone's path to a nice house in the burbs, a college education, a SUV, a hot wife, two kids, and a dog. There are many options minorities can take advantage of in America. The Millitary doesnt give out brains and ambition.

"The Democrats all tell the same old sad story as they accumulate their fortunes. The Clintons have sucked in a fortune of $40 million as they shamelessly grab every dollar they can beg,borrow or steal."

Funny you should say those things about the Dems, especially the Clintons. Bill Clinton was probably just as dirt poor as you were growing up but because of his brains he made it to become twice term President of the U.S.
A very inspiring story for minorities who you want to pull themselves up by their boot straps.

The Democrats want people to be poor?

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CAN

--wikipedia,

I saw Barack Obama's short interview with the wonderful Keith Olbermann [in his program Countdown MS NBC].

It is pertinent remember that pastor Wright was an American Marin Corp who fought for his country unlike Bush and Cheney. The worse the liberal media can do is continue using selective litmus test Barack Obama must meet while Hillary Clinton continue with her rampage of toxic kitchen sink strategy. There is no way African Americans are going to vote for the Bill and Hillary if they destroy Barack Obama's candidacy! Such is the arrogance of entitlement of Hillary Cliton. I am also waiting for media response to the Motherjones piece on McCain's spiritual leader.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23343620#23342867
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html

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CAN

--Fossil,

ha ha,! Hillary will not get the young and the black vote in nov 08, Hillary will not win the white House for demo in 08. Next.

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USA

I'm not disappointed in Obama aligning himself with the Reverend; I'm disappointed Obama didn't take the opportunity to say, "Well, he phrased it rather harshly, but, hey, there are lots of grains of truth in that one."

It is not bad politics to align yourself with vehement spouters if those spouters are saying something that needs to be heard. McCain's advisor supporting the eradication of Muslims? Bad. The Reverend pointing out our country's long history of exploitation and violence? Not bad.

We don't need to degenerate into a flame war of "American all good, America all bad." This country has done lots of both good and evil, and if we really want the CHANGE both Democratic candidates are talking about, we're gonna have to start taking a thorough inventory of our nation, warts and all.

Frankly, I was pleased with the Reverend's speech. At least he was attempting to address the underbelly issues that are driving our nation downward.

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GBR

halgeel84,

I just had a thought. The accusations of anti Americanism by Obama detractors are, lets face it, coming predominately from whites. I'm starting to think that charges of anti Americanism is a way for mostly whites to get in on the grievance culture they are always accusing, minorities, of wallowing in.

I think it was Chris Rock who said that there wasnt anyone as racist as an old black man. LOL. And that black men today shouldnt complain about not being able to get a taxi due to racism because back in the day, the black man was the taxi. Was that Chris Rock?

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MYS

There's a lot of stuff in Obama's past that doesn't look too good, at least to right-wingers. As a black man with a career in community activism, civil rights law, and Chicago politics, inevitably his background includes a lot of associations with figures that would be considered far-left. This would be true of any black Democrat.

Most black churches will have this kind of politics, as Michael Tomasky says. It's not their raison d'etre though. There were more reasons to stay in that community than to leave, in my opinion.

If absence of guilt by association is the criterion for becoming president, then only Republicans will ever be president. You can find guilt-by-association "gotchas" for any prominent politician in America. The Democrats don't do the smears well enough, and somehow the Republicans can survive stuff like John Hagee much better. Clinton is more exposed to guilt by association than Obama.

The mantra is always "stick to the issues", except when it comes to guilt by association. It's the fatal weakness in American politics. If it retains its importance, then America might well elect McCain -- both Clinton and Obama are compromised, like almost all politicians. At this point, that'd be close to national suicide. The economy can't take another Republican administration. Not that McCain is without similar associations like Hagee, Rod Parsley, the Keating Five, Bud Paxson, etc. But they just don't seem to matter.

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USA

If you haven't been poor than you don't know what it is like, believe me you just don't. From the time of slavery African Americans have used churches as a cover to allow them to meet when they otherwise wouldn't.

There is a whole very complicated culture involved in black churches. There is a lot more going on than you will understand if you are white and middle class. Believe me they can be communicating some pretty radical stuff without you being any the wiser. Southern whites used to talk of how beautiful the slaves singing was, but if they knew what was really being communicated they would have been scared out their minds.

When you are poor you don't can't live the lies that middle class people live. You know the truth because you lived it.

World War II for example has become so distorted by myth that it is almost completely unrecognizable.

I have read the most absurd comments from otherwise intelligent people. I had recently read a peace where Alan M. Dershowitz was talking about the concept of preventative war said if France and England had acted earlier they could have stopped the holocaust. Even the most cursory reading of sources from the time make it absolutely clear that the vast majority, and the entirety of decision makers in England, France and the United States couldn't give a damn about what happened to the Jews.

As recently rediscovered letters by Ann Franks father make clear the Allied nations could have saved a huge number of Jews just by letting the immigrate.

It is also amazing to see neo-conservative types describe the United States as the innocent victim of WWII. It just ain't so. If there ever was a case of preemptive war than Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was certainly that case.

The United States was not neutral at all by the time of the attack. We were for all intents and purposes already at war with Germany and Japan. We were giving the United Kingdom an enormous amount of support.

In Asia the western powers had already split up China like a rotting corpse. Britain was firmly in control of India. The United States had already used military force to exhort humiliating concessions from the Japanese

We were enforcing a fuel embargo against Japan that was crippling its war effort and certainly would have taken any opportunity exploit its weaknesses.

Japan did commit horrible atrocities during the war. But, by the logic of the Bush doctrine the actual "aggression" was much more justified than our invading Iraq. Iraq posed no danger to the United States. The colonial powers however certainly wanted weaken and if possible conquer Japan.

No reasonable person could argue that if Bush had been in charge of Japan, that he would not have made almost the identical decisions that Japan made.

I often muse that Bush should apologize to the families of the Japanese men we hanged for sole offense of "aggression."

After all, it only took a couple of wackos with box cutters for America to ditch thousands of years of the legal heritage we share with Britain, institute sham trails, and institutionalize torture. Imagine what we would have done if we were really threatened as the Japanese were.

The ironic thing is that you can still find a fare number of old Republicans from that time who say essentially all of the above and curse FDR for tricking the nation into war.

Any way off in middle class white land believe what you will , just remember the fact that it sounds nicer doesn't make it anymore true.

join the revolution at
www.thebloodyflag.com

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A number of questions arose in my mind after reading this rather strange article.

Firstly, I haven't read the entire sermon in question from this Pastor, but if we take the quote Tomasky uses, what exactly does he disagree with? What is he outraged by?

Is he suggesting, for example, that the U.S. did not bomb, and deliberately target and kill, thousands of civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Or that they did, but it was wholly justified and bears no comparison at all to the deliberate targetting of civilians on 9/11? Is he outraged at the description of Israeli policies as 'State Terrorism'? Or does he disagree that the U.S. 'sponsors', excuses, or facilitates the continuation of such policies? Does he disagree that the South African State's treatment of its black citizens is similarly being described as terrorism, or just the claim that, again, this received support from the U.S.? What about the training of right wing terrorists operating in Central America? What about 10,000 murderd on 9/11 in Chile, a mass murder organised jointly with the CIA and big American corporations operating in Chile? Not as heinous a crime? Not as historically important?

Of course, Tomasky is quite entitled to hold such opinions. But they are political opinions, and he should argue them as such, rather than glibly assuming a moral high ground.

The other thing that occured to me was why a relationship between a Presidential hopeful and a Pastor should be at all important. After all, the Cruise Missile liberals constantly inform us that 'we' are fighting for secular values as opposed to religious obscurantism.

Finally, why were words that would apparantly 'shock your average white American' (or maybe just those Tomasky mixes with?), receive 'cheers and whoops and hollers'? What does that tell us about the real nature of U.S. capitalism in the 21st Century?

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CAN


Bikhair
Comment No. 1200741
March 15 3:48
GBR halgeel84,
"I just had a thought. The accusations of anti Americanism by Obama detractors are, lets face it, coming predominately from whites. I'm starting to think that charges of anti Americanism is a way for mostly whites to get in on the grievance culture they are always accusing, minorities, of wallowing in."

-Bikhair

This is a reasonable comment for the fact it is truly incompetent white men[some white women] who run America down the drain in the name of personal gain. But it is Obama, an African American, who is trying to restore this nation to semblance of respectability; while Hillary, a woman who voted for the war, is running on fear mongering anti-black agenda!

"I think it was Chris Rock who said that there wasnt anyone as racist as an old black man. LOL. And that black men today shouldnt complain about not being able to get a taxi due to racism because back in the day, the black man was the taxi. Was that Chris Rock?"

To be honest since his famous black face Vanity Fair issue, I have not been paying attention to white Chris Rock does or says. But your comment is pertinent and wise.

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USA

Myabe this brouhaha over Wright will lead us to an examination of the pastors in the McCain camp. Although I have little use for the clergy, I do enjoy watching the big-time preachers on television. They are quite entertaining.

(Check out the Rev. Melissa Scott, sure to be the next big thing. After her complex, totally bewildering lectures, with whiteboard translations of scripture from the Greek and Aramaic, she launches into rockabilly versions of oldtime gospel songs, complete with backup singers.)

McCain's endorser, John Hagee is just a hate-filled little toad. But Rod Parsley is something else again.

Parsley is quite simply one of the best actors in America, although a bit hammy and given to chewing the scenery. His command of the language of the King James Bible makes me long to see him tackle Shakespeare. He would be a revelation, pardon the pun.

But as a "proper" spiritual leader, he's a total fraud. His ministry exists for one reason only - the enrichment of the good reverend. So even though he appears to hold some pretty reprehensible views, everyone knows his heart isn't in it, including McCain. Maybe that's why the media is silent about McCain's acceptance of his support. That, and the fact that he's white.

But one suspects that a lot of folks are afraid that Jeremiah Wright might actually believe what he says. Some, who weren't going to vote for him anyway, are just looking for an excuse to slam Obama, and in Rev. Wright, the scary, angry black man, they feel they have found it.

But I remember a televised sermon by Rev. Wright when he talked about visiting NYC, and buying a meal for a man on the street who hadn't eaten in days, and how it was important that we not ignore those among us who were in need, materially and spiritually. No bombast at all. I'm guessing that you won't see that sermon excerpted in the media anytime soon.

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USA


There's a useful site maintained by an individual which shows US election results from 1932 until 2004 with overall results and by state: http://uselectionatlas.org/
There's also primary results since 2000. In most of the elections which were thought of as "landslides" since 1932 the loser got at least 36% of the popular vote. The big winners seldom got more than 60%. In the figures given for "primary" wins, it looks as though the number of primary and caucus votes varies from about 10% to 30% of the votes they received in the "general"--we should say genuine--election. "Primaries" are only a means of being listed on a ballot. They're no predictor of election results.
This evening Lou Dobbs on CNN spent about 10 minutes talking about Barack Obama's former minister's sermons, which were selected to show "anti-American" inclinations. His guests gave various opinions on whether or not Obama should have walked out of the church service upon hearing the minister's intemperate observations. After this show, I immediately turned to Fox News for a fresh perspective, and Bill O'Reilly had discovered the same film clips. After berating the "liberal" pro-Obama CNN for their lack of coverage, he condemned the minister, but in a "fair and balanced" observation, he did not condemn Obama for anything but apparent indifference to anti-American outbursts. More Fox News with Hannity and Combs, and we've a "fair and balanced" argument over the whether Obama's continued relationship with the church was significant. Hannity ventured that Obama was "unfit to be Senator." Then they broadcast an interview with Obama which could best be described as a hostile cross-examination. By now the Fox News crew has worked itself into something of a frenzy. If Obama is nominated, he'll be portrayed as the world's first neo-Trotskyite Islamo Fascist sympathizer--in a "fair and balanced" way. For now, Hannity is calling for an "investigation."
Next a guest talk radio hostess berates Combs for pro-Obama "bias." Despite primary "election" wins, this sort of broadcasting need only move (scare?) 10% of voters to be decisive. On the bright side, US commentators will entertain and infuriate millions of viewers and listeners on several continents this year. On the dark side, the genuine election results may well mean more war on the continents whose inhabitants have reason not to be so amused. The Bush administration should find a way to charge foreigners for the dialogs in democracy they've inspired. The fees could be rolled up in defense charges for their anti-missile contribution to enhanced European security and would be consistent with their highly stabilizing "strong dollar" policy.
The presumptive Republican nominee--Senator McCain--may be remembered for recently visiting Iraq and making observations to the effect that the province was remarkably tranquil after only four years as an embryonic democracy. Yesterday, Fox News congratulated the Senator on the thirty-fifth anniversary of triumphant return from Vietnamese captivity. He remarked that he knew his captivity was nearing an end because of the "sound of B-52's in the air" before his release. (This observation may seem paradoxical to some, since the air bombardment of Viet Nam was the immediate cause of his capture--not his release.) However eccentric some of his recent observations, his clear-cut primary victories over opponents who reject god-less Darwinism and think the Garden of Eden was in Missouri was impressive to anyone who admires his unshakable convictions. (He was understandably pegged as a closet Social Democrat by perceptive conservative critics.)
Senator McCain is reputed to be on the way to Europe to cement his credentials as the future leader of the free world. He modestly admits that economics is not a forte of his, so the folks over there should council him to maintain the "strong dollar" policy as a part of the struggle against "radical Islam." Europeans should greet him enthusiastically--he may be your next leader with 51% of the vote in November.

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GBR

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and the black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

Where is the error in this statement ? It is transparently accurate.

The timing may have been insensitive, but it was in the hearts and minds of everyone outside of America immediately. Do you not realize that this represents the view of most people across the globe ?

If Obama has to reject any truly honest men or women, who have the courage to voice the thoughts of so many, then he isn't fit for election anyway.

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CHN

I am a little concerned about the "letting off steam" argument. It seems to excuse an awful lot. White people like to express themselves too. In pubs, in bars, in posh clubs. Racism of this sort would never be forgiven in a White person. Let's remember the "humourous" comments made by Trent Lott. A far smaller sin.

We will see what Obama says and does about this. I can't believe he thought no one would notice. Or that it would be a millstone around his neck campaign-wise. So I guess he has decided to tough it out. But I don't see him winning now.

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GBR

MoveAnyMountain,

"Racism of this sort would never be forgiven in a White person. "

I dont recall Rev. Whight saying anything raccist. White racism in American has been about keeping the priveldged status of whites over non-whites. There was a reason why blacks, during the Civil Rights movement and long after, were saying that they were Black and they were proud, that Black was beautiful, or talking about Black Power. They were attempting to address ineqaulity. If a White person had said the same, they would be attempting to maintain superiority. Yeah, it is different.

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CHN

Bikhair - "I dont recall Rev. Whight saying anything raccist. White racism in American has been about keeping the priveldged status of whites over non-whites. There was a reason why blacks, during the Civil Rights movement and long after, were saying that they were Black and they were proud, that Black was beautiful, or talking about Black Power. They were attempting to address ineqaulity. If a White person had said the same, they would be attempting to maintain superiority. Yeah, it is different."

I am sorry to hear you don't Bikhair.

Racism is a complex issue and given the Left's obsession with Power (Sex is power, Money is power, We want power!) I am sure that many would try to argue that racism is about power. But it is more complex than that. Blacks did go around saying Black was Beautiful. They did not say White was Ugly. By the time of Black Power they were not trying to redress inequality but pursuing a policy of racist separation (so much nicer than segregation of course). I really don't see how it can be racism for George Wallace to say that racial intermarriage is wrong and yet it is not racist for Muhammed Ali to say the same thing. Both are racist.

On a wider issue, as Whites become less and less the major dominant community in America - and White Protestants have just fallen below 50 percent - this issue will have to be revisited. Because if people keep insisting that Black racism is acceptable, and it does not fade away, America is going to have problems. Already the main racial problems in California are between Hispanics and Blacks - a fight over territory (with ethnic cleansing in LA) and resources. But of course that can't be racism can it? Who is the oppressed?

RLHotchkiss - "Alan M. Dershowitz was talking about the concept of preventative war said if France and England had acted earlier they could have stopped the holocaust. Even the most cursory reading of sources from the time make it absolutely clear that the vast majority, and the entirety of decision makers in England, France and the United States couldn't give a damn about what happened to the Jews."

Sorry but would you care to link those two comments with a thought? Sure, if they acted they could have prevented it. But they did not care. What's your point?

RLH - "As recently rediscovered letters by Ann Franks father make clear the Allied nations could have saved a huge number of Jews just by letting the immigrate."

And in fact the vast majority of Jews escaped by immigrating. The problem was that the Germans then invaded the countries where they found refuge - Holland, Belgium and France.

RLH - "In Asia the western powers had already split up China like a rotting corpse."

Sorry but this must have been why they had signed away all the major points in the Unequal Treaties and agreed to the last of them in 1943 was it?

RLH - "The United States had already used military force to exhort humiliating concessions from the Japanese"

Sorry when was this then? Perry's ships before the Meiji Restoration?

RHL - "We were enforcing a fuel embargo against Japan that was crippling its war effort and certainly would have taken any opportunity exploit its weaknesses."

The bastards! Imagine crippling Japan's War Effort! That FDR sure was a Fascist scum bag. And refusing to sell Japan oil?! Everyone knows that is a reason for war. Why, America had every right to invade Saudi Arabia in 1973, did they?

RHL - "The colonial powers however certainly wanted weaken and if possible conquer Japan."

And the reason you believe this nonsense is what precisely?

If they wanted to, why didn't they a little earlier? You know, when Japan couldn't have stopped them?

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KOR

"We can debate the factual merits of Wright's arguments, but let's leave all that aside."

Let's not. The Reverend is largely correct. It just shows how you can't tell the truth in the US.

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AUS

Bikhair

"I don't(sic) recall Rev. Wright(sic) saying anything racist(sic)."

What does the plight of African Americans have to do with the Jewish state? There's a long running stream of thought amongst a certain strand of extremist black hate monger that blames most of their problems on the Jooos. Wright obviously belongs to that group not just through the prejudiced crap he spouts but through his association with Farrakhan. Obama must have been aware of this, which begs the question, why did he attend and support this vile man for over 20 years? I suspect that Obama and more likely his spouse, at least partially agree with the world view expressed by Wright, that the white man is the devil and America is evil.

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GMB

The generally heated responses to Rev. Wright's explanation of 9/11 within the context of Obama's run for the U.S. presidency again tells us something about the Euro-American psyche.

The fact is that following Europe's expansion into all corners of the globe in the last 500 years its new bourgeois governments both within Europe and the settlement areas in the Americas, Africa and Australasia necessarily became "racial/fascist" in order to justify Europe's successful expansionism with its decimation of local overseas and the appropriation of large portions of the world's landmass.

The conventional argument--it's all there in the European literature--was/is that it was in the natural biological order of things that the "inferior races"--see the full title caption to Darwin's "Origin of Species"-- succumb to the "superior European race".

The indigenous peoples of the Americas and Australasia--the continents that bore the brunt of European expansionism--had 2 stark choices: either hand over their living spaces to an expansionist Europe or be exterminated in the process. Thus Europe ended up by holding sway over vast swathes of land justified under the rubric of a "civilising colonialism".

Increasing competition for the vast resources of Africa and Asia with new competitor, Germany eventually produced wars on a global scale--WWI and WWII.

A rapidly industrialising Japan saw itself as an able competitor too but was the odd-man-out in an expansionist league that inlcuded only European nations.

And Europe-East also joined the sway with Russia now transmogrified into a communist nation. And all those nations played their games with Japan still as odd-man-out.

Thus Japan was targeted for appropriation despite its upstart status. The result was the Pearl Harbour entrapment which eventually led to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki warning shots sent out to an equally expansionsist Russia--as the USSR.

The point is that European expansionism properly understood as a form of racial fascism rode roughshod over millions across the world's continents. Millions were killed and many populations were exterminated. And millions lost the lands they had lived on for millenia. And that was acceptable on grounds of Drawinian racial fascism.

9/11 was basically a relatively ineffective answer back to an ongoing European expansionsist colonialism structured on geo-political models of global scope. This is the essence of Wright's comments on 9/11.

Now here's the thing: European expansion into the rest of the world is STILL seen as justfied by the vast majority of people of European stock. In this regard, the problem with the invasion and war in Iraq is not that it was wrong but that it was not won quickly. In the minds of such people there's nothing wrong with that massive mausoleum of an U.S. embassy in Baghdad.

Thus any open criticism of essentially ineffective response gestures such as 9/11 is quickly seen as "unpatriotic"--a repudiation of the idea of what is essentially a form of "racial fascism".

The reasons for the vicarious attack on Obama are easily discerned: ANY CANDIDATE FOR THE POSITION OF PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. MUST EMBRACE RACIAL FASCISM WITH ITS CORRELATE OF WESTERN AND U.S. FULL SPECTRUM DOMINANCE, IF THAT CANDIDATE IS TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO THE U.S. ELECTORATE.

Any potential president of the Western collective with its head position going to the president of the U.S. must explicitly and implicitly accept the Darwinian principle of racial fascism if he/she is going to be acceptable to the masses.

A torn and divided soul such as BHO may not survive this one. After all, his main rival HRC has already openly intimated that hed is not a full member of the "tribe".

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USA

Calling all Obama supporters! Calling all Obama supporters!Strategy planning time.

Some of you feel that Minister Wright's message is, for want of a better word, "right.", and I grant that his teachings may be right in some deeply profound historical and philosophical sense. But if you guys had read this morning's NY Times, you would have noted that Senator Obama now regards these teachings as "inflammatory and appalling". It's only because he didn't attend church that day or he would have spoken up sooner.

So, let's get on-message here, guys.

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InLightened and PresidentD

I asked yesterday if your "brand of stupidity" is deeply ingrained? I guess you two are providing the answer in aboundance. The insanity of it all is, neither of you knows what facts and evidence are.

What evidence do you have to show that Obama is like Wright? To even bring Obama's children into the argument is pure ranked stupidity only a complete graded idiot will contenance.

I know the simple mind PresidentD always do a runner, when he's either confronted with the facts or ask to clarify some of his idiocy.

I ask you yesterday PresidentD, if you so despised the Guardian as a "leftwinger that, leftwingerthis," what are doing on CiF?

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USA

Tomasky says:

"For more than a year, I've thought that Barack Obama's most exposed achilles heel would be Jeremiah Wright."

So, you've been aware of what Wright has said and what it said of Obama but obviously didn't think it was worth a mention, even once?

I'm confused here, Mr. Tomasky. Are you a journalist, which I understand means someone who reports pertinent facts relevant to significant events, or are you a public relations guy?

I mean, you agree that Wright was a problem fact for Obama yet you chose to say nothing until now. You obviously can't plead ignorance, so one has to conclude that you long ago decided to support Obama and are acting solely in his interests. And you can't hide under the guise that is a comment column and not a journalistic report since you have doen nothing but boost Obama while attacking all those who were opposed to him.

In reading your column I am sympathetic with what you say about the black experience in America. There is no way that any fair minded person could have gone through the Civil Rights years without feeling compassion and appreciating the justice in the cause of minority civil rights.

But what we have here, Mr. Tomasky, is not a cry by Rev. Wright for justice, on the contrary. Rev. Wright's sermons are repulsive, racist, bigoted sermons that are equaled only by those during the days of the KKK.

The issue then is how can Obama survive now when he has said repeatedly that Rev. Wright was his "sounding board", the preacher that he exposed his children to every Sunday because he wanted them to hear what Rev. Wright had to say, the man he looked up to for the past 20 years, the man who had the greatest impact on Obama's view of the world in his life and the church that he wanted his family to continue to attend each Sunday, which is one of the reasons he didn't move his family from Chicago to Washington DC.

Clearly, Obama's presidential hopes are finished, but his impact is not. He still leads in pledged delegates and will, by the time of Denver still be within striking range of the nomination. The superdelegates will decide and, even now, are likely to turn to Clinton, not because she's a better candidate, but simply because Obama could bring about the biggest Democratic loss in history. And it doesn't stop there.

Blacks in America see Obama as their voice, their personification. They don't care what Rev. Wright says simply because many share his views. The nation's reaction to Rev. Wright's sermons will likely be seen as just another example of, as Rev. Wright predicted they will say, that a black man can't be president. And that sort of frustration has played out in really ugly ways in the past.

As for the Clintons, they won't really benefit by this. They were and are clumsy in their attacks on Obama and those supporting Obama will always see their fingerprints over his fall. As for McCain, he's been above all this simply because one, regardless of their views, simply doesn't get between camps in the other party's war.

But however the inevitable ugliness plays out, you should look in the mirror, Mr. Tomasky, and ask to what extent you played a role in what has happened and will happen.

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CAN


At this very moment and in the face of unrelenting racism in America against African Americans, when one in 10 black men in America are in prison, when 40 percent of black women will never marry- where the black family is under in shambles, the toxic violence of possessive privilege of whiteness is brazenly asserting its prerogative to the possessive property of whiteness [Ferraro, "I am white;", she claims, and that is "why I am being attacked"], poor Ferraro- the innocence of whiteness[see the Birth of a Nation to gasp the genealogy of whiteness and rush to innocence]; meanwhile, Hillary Clinton continues openly inflaming racial passions to win votes-.

Enter Barack Obama! The "acceptable face of blackness"- but he gone to far- he has the audacity to aim for the top job- against a white woman! When Hillary Clinton says that she qualifies to be commander-in- Chief, McCain qualifies to be a Commander in chief- but Obama does not qualify to be commander in chief, she is speaking about the possessive property of whiteness.

When Hillary Clinton insists that the best Barack Obama can aim for is to be her running mate as VP, she speaks the possessive property of whiteness! Of course, the white liberal media cannot read the discursive power of the possessive property of whiteness for many of them have never suffered the material and the symbolic violence of white racism- much of its current context- as a colour blind liberal racism.

The white liberal media knows that Hillary is playing up racial anxieties of the working class whites- some have already noted the racist implications of many of Hillary's negative ads against Obama such as the so-called 3. AM red phone, dissemination of photos of Barack Obama wearing native Somali garb- to suggest Barack Obama's "otherness" as non- American- a "silent or sleeper cell" 'Muslim' foreign agent.

We can also speak about Hillary's people deliberate "darkening" Barack Obama's skin colour in order to invoke "the menace of the threatening, angry, un trustworthy black man- who cannot be trusted with the protection of white American family and nation".

The liberal media calls this 'Kitchen sink strategy' but has refused to name the racist ingredients which are foundation of the toxic dirty oozing out of Hillary's ever enlarged filthy kitchen sink. Hillary Clinton's 3 A.m ad has been compared to 1915 D. W. Griffith's The Birth of a Nation. The film has been credited helping the rise of KKK style white supremacy in America.

We also know that Woodrow Wilson shared Griffith's anti-black racism. Hillary Clinton is not afraid to use anti-black racism to win votes. This is the real story and but because the liberal media has invested so much on colour blind universalism, it has failed or refused see racist campaign directed at Barack Obama candidacy by Hillary Clinton and Co!

http://www.utwatch.org/funfacts/woodrowwilson.html
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/06/griffith.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0004972/usercomments?start=70

One terms used by the G Ferraro in her infamous rant against Barack Obama is her suggestion that Barack Obama represent a 'problem' for Hillary Clinton! That is exactly how African Americans have been talked about by white America from Thomas Jefferson to Woodrow Wilson, D. W. Giriffith, Hillary Clinton and now "off-white" Italian blue colour working class MS Ferraro- "a problem". Black people in America= "problem" for white America. But the liberal media cannot bring itself own to look at the face of racism and white privilege in America.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23471804/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23638352#23638352
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html?ex=1361941200&en=9f78e91a7de6aabc&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23343620#23342867


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CAN

My apology for few typos!

halgeel84
Comment No. 1201272
March 15 13:13
CAN
At this very moment and in the face of unrelenting racism in America against African Americans, when one in 10 black men in America are in prison, when 40 percent of black women will never marry- where the black family is in shambles, the toxic violence of possessive privilege of whiteness is brazenly asserting its prerogative to the possessive property of whiteness [Ferraro, "I am white;", she claims, and that is "why I am being attacked"], poor Ferraro- the innocence of whiteness[see the Birth of a Nation to grasp the genealogy of whiteness and rush to innocence]; meanwhile, Hillary Clinton continues openly inflaming racial passions to win votes-.

Enter Barack Obama! The "acceptable face of blackness"- but he gone to far- he has the audacity to aim for the top job- against a white woman! When Hillary Clinton says that she qualifies to be commander-in- Chief, McCain qualifies to be a Commander in chief- but Obama does not qualify to be commander in chief, she is speaking about the possessive property of whiteness.

When Hillary Clinton insists that the best Barack Obama can aim for is to be her running mate as VP, she speaks the possessive property of whiteness! Of course, the white liberal media cannot read the discursive power of the possessive property of whiteness for many of them have never suffered the material and the symbolic violence of white racism- much of its current context- as a colour blind liberal racism.

The white liberal media knows that Hillary is playing up racial anxieties of the working class whites- some have already noted the racist implications of many of Hillary's negative ads against Obama such as the so-called 3. AM red phone, dissemination of photos of Barack Obama wearing native Somali garb- to suggest Barack Obama's "otherness" as non- American- a "silent or sleeper cell" 'Muslim' foreign agent.

We can also speak about Hillary's people deliberate "darkening" Barack Obama's skin colour in order to invoke "the menace of the threatening, angry, un trustworthy black man- who cannot be trusted with the protection of white American family and nation".

The liberal media calls this 'Kitchen sink strategy' but has refused to name the racist ingredients which are foundation of the toxic dirt oozing out of Hillary's ever enlarged filthy kitchen sink. Hillary Clinton's 3 A.m ad has been compared to 1915 D. W. Griffith's The Birth of a Nation. The film has been credited with helping the rise of KKK style white supremacy in America.

We also know that Woodrow Wilson shared Griffith's anti-black racism. Hillary Clinton is not afraid to use anti-black racism to win votes. This is the real story and but because the liberal media has invested so much on colour blind universalism, it has failed or refused see racist campaign directed at Barack Obama candidacy by Hillary Clinton and Co!

http://www.utwatch.org/funfacts/woodrowwilson.html
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/06/griffith.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0004972/usercomments?start=70

One term used by the G Ferraro in her infamous rant against Barack Obama is her suggestion that Barack Obama represent a 'problem' for Hillary Clinton! That is exactly how African Americans have been talked about by white America from Thomas Jefferson to Woodrow Wilson, D. W. Giriffith, Hillary Clinton and now "off-white" Italian blue colour working class MS Ferraro- "a problem". Black people in America= "problem" for white America. But the liberal media cannot bring itself 'down' to look at the face of racism and white privilege in America.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23471804/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23638352#23638352
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/28cnd-prison.html?ex=1361941200&en=9f78e91a7de6aabc&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23343620#23342867

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BHS

This article ignored some of his more inflammatory comments.


"In a fiery sermon in April 2003, Wright said: "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America.

"No! No No!

"God damn America ... for killing innocent people.

"God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans.

"God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme."

In DVD copies of his sermons available for purchase, Wright can also be seen questioning America's role in the spreading of the HIV virus that leads to AIDS. In another speech, made in the days after 9/11, he suggested that American foreign policy invited the terror attacks.

"We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye," Wright said.

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost."

The pastor also said: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.""
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-spiritual-adviser-questioned-us-role-in-spread-of-hiv-sept-11-attacks/

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GBR

bernardtrois,

"But what we have here, Mr. Tomasky, is not a cry by Rev. Wright for justice, on the contrary. Rev. Wright's sermons are repulsive, racist, bigoted sermons that are equaled only by those during the days of the KKK."

No they havent. The KKK was a violent terrorist group. Rev. Wright has never advocated any act of violence. He has warned that violence was the reaction of others towards the USA foreign policy. Not the homosexuals, the abortionist, the liberals, the activist judges, etc.

McCain has said what other of others have said that the sayings of Rev. Wright shouldnt reflect Obama or his work. Perhaps because some of the people that McCain has rub shoulders with sound just like Rev. Wright except that they support more and more war.

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USA

It is an old republican card
Fear war and canard
Sometime chicken comes home to roost
despite Catholic innuendo Mc Cain continues to boost
His rating same way.
Will Iraqi rebel come to sway ?

planted question in town hall meeting
Will Al Qaida engage in selective killing
to tilt the tide against him
The answer is ready
stupid question is so shady.
Mirroring Bush in 2004
swift voting Barak more.

Breaking news of church and pastor.
Tirade from Graham, Dobson, Coulter
Growing nastier for year
Or in Texas parishes
Nuking Iran or Syria as God's wishes
Or killing Chavez
These are our idol for praise
Rod Parsley's latest moronic scream
By Mc Cain's smiling to the brim.

Ask the Evangelic creature
They are just following the Scripture.
Until Heathen and Ham come to the Master
Jesus will rise to slaughter
Killing children whore and rape victim
Or unbeliever ordained by God it seem.


Reply comes more off the bat.
as sex and money turning them in door mat.

So what message did Jeremiah Wright breach?

Coming on a platter the divine glitch
Will be so unlike Rove not to snitch.

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GBR

mynameisloghorn,

"What does the plight of African Americans have to do with the Jewish state? There's a long running stream of thought amongst a certain strand of extremist black hate monger that blames most of their problems on the Jooos. Wright obviously belongs to that group not just through the prejudiced crap he spouts but through his association with Farrakhan. Obama must have been aware of this, which begs the question, why did he attend and support this vile man for over 20 years?"

I can only judge Obama and Rev. Wright on things they have said and done. What does the plight of African Americans have to do with the Jews? I dont know. What did Rev. Wright say about African Americans and the Jews?

What was Obama supposed to be aware of? Most if not all of the things that have been attributed to Rev. Wright arent more than 20 years old. They arent even 10 years old. There are some things about 9/11 and Hillary Clinton.

This According to Media Matters:
"When Minister Farrakhan speaks, Black America listens," says the Rev. Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, likening the Minister's influence to the E. F. Hutton commercials of old. "Everybody may not agree with him, but they listen ... His depth on analysis when it comes to the racial ills of this nation is astounding and eye opening He brings a perspective that is helpful and honest.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200803030010

You may not know this but Farrakhan has some influence in the black community (not the only influence) mainly because of the outreach of the NOI in the black community.

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USA

MeandYou
Comment No. 1201256
March 15 12:59
InLightened and PresidentD

I asked yesterday if your "brand of stupidity" is deeply ingrained? I guess you two are providing the answer in aboundance. The insanity of it all is, neither of you knows what facts and evidence are.

What evidence do you have to show that Obama is like Wright? To even bring Obama's children into the argument is pure ranked stupidity only a complete graded idiot will contenance.

************************************************************
Call me names all you want darling. Racist, neocon, right wing MF, brain dead, war monger, religious freak are those some of your "brands of stupidity"?


I believe Obama is going to experience a case of guilt by association.

########################################################################################################################

halgeel84
Comment No. 1201272
March 15 13:13
CAN
At this very moment and in the face of unrelenting racism in America against African Americans, when one in 10 black men in America are in prison, when 40 percent of black women will never marry- where the black family is under in shambles, the toxic violence of possessive privilege of whiteness is brazenly asserting its prerogative to the possessive property of whiteness [Ferraro, "I am white;", she claims, and that is "why I am being attacked"], poor Ferraro-


Are you out of your friggin mind????????????????????????????

The issues you mention above are not racial issues they are cultural issues whithin the black community. Listen to your savior Obama talk about the problems of the black community.

Whites aren't telling young black men not to study caus it's white

Whites aren't telling black men to drop out of high school cus graduating is white

Whites aren't tell black men to sell drugs caus then you'll be rich

Whites aren't telling black men to walk away from resposibility of fathering children caus it's white

Whites aren't telling black men that you can be arrested up to three times before jail is even a concern


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/05/03/obama-criticizes-black-co_n_47544.html

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) is delivering pointed critiques of the African American community as he campaigns for its votes, lamenting that many of his generation are "disenfranchising" themselves because they don't vote, taking rappers to task for their language, and decrying "anti-intellectualism" in the black community, including black children telling peers who get good grades that they are "acting white."

As he travels around the country in his effort to become the nation's first black president, Obama has engaged in an intense competition for black voters -- a crucial Democratic Party constituency that accounts for as much as half the electorate in some key primary states such as South Carolina. But the first-term senator, who has sought to present himself as an agent of change eager to challenge political convention, has taken the unusual route of publicly criticizing his own community.

Obama grew up right after civil rights legislation and the new dawning of affirative action. He was educated in the some of the nations top schools. Was he black, yes. Was he rich, no. How could this possibly be so back in the 1980's when your description of the Racist US of today?


########################################################################################################################

waazpi
Comment No. 1201307
March 15 13:30
BHS This article ignored some of his more inflammatory comments.


"In a fiery sermon in April 2003, Wright said: "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America.

"No! No No!

"God damn America ... for killing innocent people.

"God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans.

"God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme."

In DVD copies of his sermons available for purchase, Wright can also be seen questioning America's role in the spreading of the HIV virus that leads to AIDS. In another speech, made in the days after 9/11, he suggested that American foreign policy invited the terror attacks.

"We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye," Wright said.

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost."

The pastor also said: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.""
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-s

OBAMA IS TOAST!

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CAN

InLightened

I do not think so; it is Hillary that is finished, done for. I am more than certain she will not win the nomination nor will she be able to secure her senate seat in the state if New York next time without the black vote in new york; she will not receive it! That is why she is running mad to get this nomination-- but it will not happen.

end of story.

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GBR

There is alot of hypocrisy about this. When a Black minister or Muslim Imam makes such comments about 9/11 there is apocalyptic outrage. Yet these are the comments of Falwell and Pat Robertosn two establishment white Christian lederas about 9/11:

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters - the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats--what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact--if, in fact--God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time--calling upon God.

PAT ROBERTSON: Amen

Robertson and Falwell WERE criticised for these comments but were swiftly reinstated as pillars of American Christian morality.Nothing Wright said was more controversial than this. If your part of the in group you can say what you like; part of the outgroup( non- Uncle Tom blacks and Muslims) watch your mouth

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USA

from today's NY Times: Mr. Obama said, "The violence of 9/11 was inexcusable and without justification," and added that he and his wife were at home on the day of the sermon, tending to their new baby.

Of all the gosh darn bad luck! If only Senator Obama hadn't missed church that day, he would have sorted that minister and in no time flat. Things should change now,though, as I bet there's going to be some big-time, no-more-Mr.-nice-guy, type vetting done for anyone up for "spiritual" leader of the campaign.

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USA

Apparently some of you find Dr Wright to be a 'showstopper' issue for Obama's candidacy. If it's that important to you, get the whole story and DON'T rely on Fox News clips for your decision. (The word 'bamboozle' comes to mind.)

I'm not going to tell anyone what conclusions they should reach, but I WILL suggest you take some time to view some actual Trinity United church services in their entirety:
http://www.tucc.org/home.htm
WebCast OnDemand: See past sermons at any time right here!
(Note: not all of them are by Dr Wright.)

Dr Wright engages his congregation through humor, stories about his family and friends in the church, bits of singing - and occasionally making 'provocative' comments. String those 'provocative' comments together, leaving out everything else, and you may well be shocked. Watch an entire service and you may well understand why the Obamas, and so many other local families, have belonged to the church for so many years and indeed for more than one generation.

Dr Wright is a good person. Unsound on some of his political views certainly, but that's hardly unique to him. He IS sound on his understanding of the Gospel, as Obama has said. That's all I ever expected in a minister. If I want political advice (or health advice or investment advice or various other kinds of advice) I have better resources.

Wright's entire Christmas sermon is there (the one with the infamous Clinton comments, so you can hear them in the context of the point he was making - which will doubtless surprise you):
The Message, The Messiah, and The Manger
December 25, 2007 - Luke 2:10-12 (KJV)

If you want to know what Wright and Trinity are really like, I 'challenge' you to watch it ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO THE VERY END. Then repeat your comments about how evil and hating (and whatever else) you still believe Wright to be. I doubt any of you will feel like it, although you may well have some choice words about the 'journalists' on Fox et al (which I hope you email all the way up to Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch).

All I'm saying is...don't put your trust in snips and clips and propaganda put out by those who have their own agenda - which is NOT to inform you of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

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GBR

Looks like loony right wingers cant make up their minds; first Obama's no good because he's a Muslim now he's no good cos he has a Christian preacher.

Inlighetened
"OBAMA IS TOAST!"

It is interetsting which prejudices are OK and which arent in "fair" America. This is Mcains spiritual advisor Rod Parsley:

"In a chapter titled "Islam: The Deception of Allah," Parsley warns there is a "war between Islam and Christian civilization." He continues:

I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore.

Parsley is not shy about his desire to obliterate Islam. In Silent No More, he notes--approvingly--that Christopher Columbus shared the same goal: "It was to defeat Islam, among other dreams, that Christopher Columbus sailed to the New World in 1492...Columbus dreamed of defeating the armies of Islam with the armies of Europe made mighty by the wealth of the New World. It was this dream that, in part, began America." He urges his readers to realize that a confrontation between Christianity and Islam is unavoidable: "We find now we have no choice. The time has come." And he has bad news: "We may already be losing the battle. As I scan the world, I find that Islam is responsible for more pain, more bloodshed, and more devastation than nearly any other force on earth at this moment."

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html

mynameisleghorn

"What does the plight of African Americans have to do with the Jewish state?"

A stupid comment-like saying "what does the Holocaust of the Jews have to do with non Jews?" Speaking out against injustice everyone is quite right and the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and its discrimination against its Arab citizens mirrors that of Apartheid South Africa (see Desmond Tutus comments)or how the US treated blacks. The fact Israel is a Jewish state is irrelevant.

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USA

btw - for those claiming the Obamas are 'subjecting' their children to Wright's sermons - look at the congregation in the webcasts. I don't know what your church was like, but as a child I was always in Sunday School while my parents were at the church services. Church sermons are intended for those much older than Sasha and Malia.

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USA

@wikipedia: Apparently some of you find Dr Wright to be a 'showstopper' issue for Obama's candidacy.

Maybe not a "showstopper", but at the least a pretty tough act to follow.

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USA

As the author states, such rhetoric is common in Black churches. If you just read the words, without the fire and brimstone delivery, alot of it makes sense.

When I attended Douglass Memorial in Baltimore in 1966, the Rev. Marion Bascom noted my presence as the only white face in the congregation that Sunday. He hoped I would not be offended as he spoke about buses travelling south to protest the continuing segregation.

Many of the same words spoken by Barack Obama's minister were spoken that long ago Sunday, but in a slightly calmer tone - although I don't know why.

A friend's brother-in-law had been hung in Georgia in 1962, an integrated group of teachers were nearly run off the road in downtown Baltimore while attending a convention in 1965, and when driving in Georgia the same year I was advised to duck down below the dash to avoid being shot at - I could go on and on. And my experiences were nothing compared to those with a darker skin tone.

When my father, an Episcopalian priest in a northern state, spoke from his pulpit in favor of integration and against the VietNam war, several vestrymen went to the Bishop trying to get my father removed. Even the mayor protested when my father repeated these same thoughts on local tv.

The Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, is a noted biblical scholar and has been invited to preach at seminaries across the US, including my father's alma mater, Union Theological in NYC.

Until we have each have walked in that gentleman's shoes, we should listen, not criticise.

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USA

Obama is going to regret the day he decided to,"put it out there." Wright put it out there for him didn't he! Obama has had a free ride from the media so far: Maybe not much longer. He will decide that words do mean something and that's a double edged sword. Poor Barack.

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CAN

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html
An Interesting link.

Obama has the black community behind him-- the democratic party can no longer treat him as another J Jackson. This is clearly one of Clinton's political miscalculations- she boast to have the working class 'white vote' and Obama is another "black candidate" and that ofter she secures the nomination- followed by kiss make up -the black folks will vote for her!

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USA

tranquil
Comment No. 1201469
March 15 15:23
GBR Looks like loony right wingers cant make up their minds; first Obama's no good because he's a Muslim now he's no good cos he has a Christian preacher.

Inlighetened
"OBAMA IS TOAST!"

############################################################
I really think this is going to be the thing moderates and independents won't be able to stomach. MCCain won't run those adds but some swift boat style group will. "Bamboozled" and "Damn America" will played so much even some black people will turn away form Obama.


I may be a righty but I have stated here before at CIF that I would vote for Obama over Hillary without a doubt. Lets see if the DEMs want to win in November.

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USA

... and let's face it: from a Christian preacher's standpoint, one who is advocating adherence to what Christ was actually proported to have said, leveling Baghdad WAS an un-Godly act.

Think about it: Imagane you are standing before the face of Christ, and you ask, "Hey, by your standards, is it okay for us to bomb, pillage, and plunder other nations?" Christ, "Sure, go for it."

Doesn't seem very plausible, eh?

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USA

Well, like everybody else I waited with interest the evening news to hear Mr. Obama's comments on the Pastor thing. I saw him in Fox (Brit Hume) and later CNN (Anderson Cooper).

First, imo it was very positive and courageous of him to make himself available to the press and to be willing to answer and confront the situation without delays. This has not always been the case with Obama and one of the reasons why speculations about him can run and disseminate so fast and by the time the obama camp tries to react, damage is done. I felt some sincerity in his words but was not persuade; I felt him in the defensive and grasping for words. I've never been impressed, seduced or marveled by his speeches, in the fascinating way I've seen people for him; but still given his great reputation as orator, I was expecting a more convincing argument regarding his position and thoughts on this Wright Pastor, and it is not the first time either this happen: his damage-control over his wife's words and then over the Nafta-gate were just as unconvincing.

Naturally, Obama supporters are now showing clear signs of distress by using analogies and moral equivalences (like those white Christian fundamentalists, or trying to find some connection with Mc Cain, etc) even when those equivalences are remote or absurd; In the same way, liberals-us haters-antiamerican etc are jumping at the chance of using the pastor's words on 9/11 for more feeding of their hatred, bias ("those words are true!!!') they happily rant!

But everybody is missing the biggest point here: anyone can be anti-American, anyone can agree or disagree with wrights comments, Europeans and Canadians will even
find it attractive in a US candidate to be anti-American, etc. We can write endless lists of insults of each and every politician (Bush alone would probably need a volume for himself) - we can call them names (Bush's an idiot, Hill Clinton's bitch, McCain's warmonger, Carter the worst prez...etc). But there's one thing that HAS NEVER BEEN questioned of any US president: His patriotism, his devotion to this nation and his willingness to protect US interests above all. This is WHY this Obama and his pastor relationship is so serious -because by maintaining a relationship of 20 years with an individual that obviously hates the country and all it stands for, it is implicitly saying: "I agree with this fellow"; even if he does not... Again, the point here is that BO is not just a fellow wanting to be a marine or some public official, but the PRESIDENT OF THE USA! The mere fact that something so big and sacred as unconditional patriotism and love of country is being challenged or questioned is INDEED reason enough to simply disqualify this candidate.

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USA

The only hope Obama has is this is one of those blipps that the MSM want under the rug. If so this will dye out over the weekend. It's hard to tell. If they (MSM) find it offensive then he will have to answer to it over and over. If they can overlook it then just Fox News will be pushing it.

Don't forget that the MSM rarely associated Elliot Spitzer as a Democrat. Funny how the MSM was able to edit that from there reporting.

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USA

It's already happening here at the Guardian. This thread has dropped off even though it is the most active since it was posted.

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USA

Jeremiah Wright Jr.'s harsh words will hurt Obama in the Heartland

http://voices.kansascity.com/node/715

But here's a bigger worry for Obama: What will voters in the Heartland -- in strategic Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, even Illinois -- do now?

The Midwestern states have given Obama some striking victories over Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries. Obama's narrow victory in Missouri last month tops that list.

It's clear that Obama will have to come up with a better answer than the one he was giving late Friday about his relationship with Wright.

Essentially, Obama said he didn't hear the most vituperative sermons, and he disagrees with some of Wright's strong denunciations of America.

That's not good enough. Even Democratic supporters of Obama are recoiling at some of the things Wright said.

Uh oh.

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USA

Did his mentor share hatred with Barack?

In a bristling series of shoot-from-the-hip observations, now being played on America's airwaves, Wright can be heard railing against the bombs we dropped to end World War II, as well as the stance we have taken against Palestinian terrorists, somehow concluding they naturally led to the attacks we've experienced on our own soil, bloody crimes he pastorally pooh-poohs as chickens coming home to roost.

Obama, who claims the title of his second book, "The Audacity of Hope," was inspired by Wright, is now audaciously hoping to defuse the latter's inflammatory rhetoric by suggesting his comments were "part of his social gospel."

It's not going to fly. Even a smooth talker can't get away with that.

Listening to Wright's racially polarizing polemics is to realize Obama's rationalization is ridiculous. Social gospel? Please. George Wallace, Lester Maddox and Orval Faubus all thought they had a social gospel, too.

Black or white, a nut is a nut.


http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/columnists/view.bg?articleid=1080428&srvc=home&position=3


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USA

Obama forced to denounce pastor's inflammatory remarks

Television networks have aired footage of his pastor's sermons likening the Democratic frontrunner to Jesus and declaring: "God damn America." In the sermons, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, who presided over Obama's marriage and provided the title of his book "Audacity of Hope", condemns what he describes as a systemic effort to keep black people in poverty.

The strong language and the accusations of racism have proved embarrassing to Obama, who has based his candidacy on a message of unity. In his sermons Wright reportedly refers to America as being under the influence of the Ku Klux Klan and describes black Republicans as sell-outs.

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America'. No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," he said in a 2003 sermon which was reviewed by ABC television.

"God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Obama has been a member of the congregation of Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ in south side of Chicago for nearly 20 years, and he drew the title of his book from one of his pastor's sermons.

The pastor's sermons are available for sale at the church and both ABC and Fox News reviewed the addresses.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/14/barackobama.uselections2008

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USA

Uncle Jeremiah
Barack Obama and his cookie-cutter race huckster.

I'm not a believer in guilt by association, or the campaign vaudeville of rival politicians insisting this or that candidate disassociate himself from remarks by some fellow he had a 30-second grip'n'greet with a decade ago. But Jeremiah Wright is not exactly peripheral to Barack Obama's life. He married the Obamas and baptized their children. Those of us who made the mistake of buying the senator's last book, The Audacity of Hope, and assumed the title was an ingeniously parodic distillation of the great sonorous banality of an entire genre of blandly uplifting political writing discovered circa page 127 that in fact the phrase comes from one of the Reverend Wright's sermons. Jeremiah Wright has been Barack Obama's pastor for 20 years -- in other words, pretty much the senator's entire adult life. Did Obama consider God Damn America as a title for his book but it didn't focus-group so well?


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjE3NDc3YTU0ZGM5NGEzZTdkNjcyZjBiNDVjMjU5MGQ=

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CAN

--InLightened

so what if he did!

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USA

MoveAnyMountain

Sorry but would you care to link those two comments with a thought? Sure, if they acted they could have prevented it. But they did not care. What's your point?

My point was that even if France and Britain did wage a preventive war it is unlikely that they would have done anything to prevent the holocaust upon wining. Such an action wold have at most saved the Jews outside Germany proper, not that that wouldn't have been a good thing.

And in fact the vast majority of Jews escaped by immigrating. The problem was that the Germans then invaded the countries where they found refuge - Holland, Belgium and France.

The point is that the countries didn't do anywhere near what they could have done as far as immigration policies ot save the jews.

Sorry but this must have been why they had signed away all the major points in the Unequal Treaties and agreed to the last of them in 1943 was it?

Just a point here the date of the Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941.

But you miss the point. The colonial powers merely moved to new means of obtaining the same goal.

It is like saying that ending legally mandated segregation in the United States ended segregation. American schools are more segregated now than they were at the height of legal segregation. White flight was the same thing just different methods.


If they wanted to, why didn't they a little earlier? You know, when Japan couldn't have stopped them?

A little thing called the US Navy. Ever heard of the White Fleet?

InLightened

Whites aren't telling young black men not to study caus it's white

Whites aren't telling black men to drop out of high school cus graduating is white

Whites aren't tell black men to sell drugs caus then you'll be rich

Whites aren't telling black men to walk away from responsibility of fathering children caus it's white


In the words of Michael Corleone "Who's being naive now"

Rap music for example makes the vast majority of its money selling to white people. Do you think that rappers are really speaking for black people? Only white posers could think the gangster lifestyle is glamorous. Believe me black people know better.

The reality behind the myth that black people are telling children not get education is more complicated.

Because of racial descrimination education is worth considerably less for a black person than for a white person. It is less valued in the black community because it is worth a lot less. The average African American college graduate earns about as much as average white high school graduate. With the enormous debt that most Americans are saddled with upon college graduation they are at so much of a disadvantage compared with employees who come from countries where college education is paid for by the taxpayers that it is quickly becoming true that a four year degree doesn't make any sense. That point has already happened for African Americans.

Yet the vast majority of African American culture puts enormous emphasis behind getting all the education you can.

The reality is amongst poor blacks, there just isn't any option. They don't have jobs that would support themselves let alone a family. And, because of that they are not attractive marriage potential.

There is a big a difference between a white man who owns 100 000 pounds a year ditching his family and black man who is making around 2.45 pounds an hour in a (20-30) work week not being able to contribute.

As I said before. If your haven't been poor, you will never understand. It might help if you went to African American neighborhood and see how many blocks you can walk without finding one place of gainful employment or a business other than a liquor store or check cashing store.

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USA

Dont forget this one:

Obama stops wearing American flag pin
Thurs., Oct. 4, 2007

WATERLOO, Iowa - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, D-Ill., said he will no longer wear an American flag lapel pin because it has become a substitute for "true patriotism" since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Wonder if he felt a little hypocritical wearing the Flag Pin since he couldn't wear it at Church?

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USA

In this article posted by Inlightend

"Did his mentor share hatred with Barack?"

I just ran the survey about reactions to the Obama/Wright scandal, and 55% of respondents say they are having second thoughts about (voting for) Obama.

This is not good!

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USA

halgeel84
Comment No. 1201716
March 15 18:24
CAN
--InLightened

so what if he did!

############################################################
Uh need a little more dialog to reply.

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USA

Obama: I trusted Rezko
Senator says friend raised more money than previously known


Obama also elaborated on previous statements about his private real estate transactions with Rezko, saying they were not simply mistakes of judgment because Rezko was under grand jury investigation at the time of their 2005 and 2006 dealings. "The mistake, by the way, was not just engaging in a transaction with Tony because he was having legal problems. The mistake was because he was a contributor and somebody who was involved in politics."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-obama-rezkomar15,0,2968927.story

Looks like some are pulling out the magnifying glass to get a better look. No tellin what down that rabbit hole. Maybe this was a fairy tale after all Mr. Clinton.

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USA

No one apparently noted this really fine line Obama, the great white hope for a mixed race despondent America, must tread. Once, not being "black enough" was supposed to be the death knell for getting the "black vote" behind him. Now that he seems to be getting just that, he has been exposed as sharing the cathartic church experience of most black people in the US he is becoming "too black". Once, he was criticized for being too much of a golden boy to understand what those not as lucky have to face in an often semi-hostile racist society. Now, he is villified for loyalty to a church that offers a weekend refuge to the rage sure to bubble just under the surface among those who are exposed daily to the repercussions of being a shade or two too dark.

Tomasky is right on the money again perceiving the dynamic, emotional and sometimes incendiary black church experience as a week-end safety valve after a week of no small number of indignities. The miracle of the black US experience in the past few decades is that the vast majority of people subject to those indignities are demonstrating daily a capacity for rising above the resentments those indignities surely cause. My guess is that Obama, who has been criticized for skating away from the less than savory aspects of the "black experience" (just another code word here) has discovered in Wright's church that fervent hope is the only good anti-dote to being burnt alive by rage. And although the word "hope' may sound trite to many, it apparently means a lot to some.

To me, what's really commendable about Obama's life is that one who could have functioned white without encountering as much as a single racist episode, has nonetheless sought to comprehend the experience blacks not as blessed as him go through every day. It's been said already that Obama was "black by choice". This is supposed to be a positive thing, in an anti-uncle-Tom kind of way. Until, of course, it forces people to confront what that actually means.

What amazes a lot of people in the US - and has been expressed well in Tomasky's earlier column "color by choice" - is that by his own life, Obama presents an alternative to the despair of the Farakhan's as well as the hubris of the Clarence Thomas's. That Obama has apparently managed to internalize the experiences - and feelings - of those far less golden, without either denying their existence or being sunk by the negatives, is part of the secret ingredient that holds clues to his astounding success as a candidate. With the entire country on the brink of despondency, it's no wonder that many glimpse in that very black experience - in all its shades - the not-so-secret power of redemption. No wonder the Obama phenomenon (for that's what it is) always had that slight near-spiritual tint.

Of course, this is election season, and the powers that be - lobbies, special interests - vested and otherwise -were never cowed (did we really think they would be?), just temporarily silenced. For those attentive enough to hear the ramble of gritted teeths, that silence was plenty noisy. It is the not-so-distant howls of the moneyed, powdered and powered that I hear behind the gleeful sanctimony greeting the circulating speeches by the good reverend (I guess parsing michelle's thesis did not quite do the trick).

Just another down river ride in the swift boat.

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USA

RLHotchkiss
Comment No. 1201723

Because of racial descrimination education is worth considerably less for a black person than for a white person. It is less valued in the black community because it is worth a lot less. The average African American college graduate earns about as much as average white high school graduate. With the enormous debt that most Americans are saddled with upon college graduation they are at so much of a disadvantage compared with employees who come from countries where college education is paid for by the taxpayers that it is quickly becoming true that a four year degree doesn't make any sense. That point has already happened for African Americans.

Yet the vast majority of African American culture puts enormous emphasis behind getting all the education you can.

The reality is amongst poor blacks, there just isn't any option. They don't have jobs that would support themselves let alone a family. And, because of that they are not attractive marriage potential.

############################################################

I can't agree. I have worked in a number of industries for small and large corporations. There have always been college educated blacks and a high school education working in all of them. The position I am working in now, I was hired by a black man along with 12 others to start a new support team. Of those hires 5 were white and 8 were black. The pay was the same regardless of race. This is a large multinational company.

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USA

The pink elephant that wanders the room, however, is that because the Obama campaign, rightfully, will not lower itself to the garbage flinging attacks by both the Clinton campaign and the conservative Republicans some Obama supporters may feel they need to fill in the gap with attacks of their own where the official campaign does not choose to do so. It is a temptation many of us have had and we applaud Senator Obama for raising us all out of that mire.

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USA

Bump....

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USA

Clinton could probably save some campaign money by just sending out Trinty Church DVD's to all the super deligates.

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USA

InLightened
I have seen it snow on the Mississippi gulf coast, real snow sticking to ground. I built a real snowman. But it would be wrong to portray snow as a fixture of that climate.

For the first 15 years of my employment all the jobs I worked at and there were quite a few, my boss was a woman. But it would be wrong to say that all middle level manger is a woman.

I recently read an article by a soldier who spent his time in one neighborhood who said that that the surge is working.

If you ask a lottery winner, or a trust fund kid how capitalism is doing they'll tell you "Every thing works fine."

You have mentioned some things that support your argument, but I would imagine you have been in the position to see a lot of things to support mine, but weren't ready to see them.

Even, if this not true, my argument is supported by numbers that don't lie.

join the revolution at www.thebloodyflag.com

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USA

It's rather comical to see all of the anti-Obama American posters - desperately clawing to find anything to taint, block and sabotage his impressive campaign - clog an English newspaper's website with their disingenious cries that "Obama hasn't answered the concerns" and "One blog in Huffington Post won't satisfy me" and "This won't go away." Many of these "concern trolls" - who simply can't stomach the mere thought of "Hail to the Chief" being played and a the sight black man strolling into the room during the song (but don't want to admit their prejudice) - are straining every sinew in their bodies to trip up Obama. They flood to voting booths anc change their political party from Republican to Democrat for a day - just to vote against Obama. They scour political websites around the globe, spewing racially charged language on comment pages. They grab for every silly would-be "controversy" - like Obama supposedly not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem. Fortunately, "they" will fail. I fully expect Obama to be the next president of the United States - regardless of the over-wrought handwringing of Michael Tomasky and numerous posters on this board.

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USA

RLHotchkiss

I get your post we all base things on personal experience. I also live in a middle class subdivision and have many black neighbors, Pakistani, Indian, Asian, Swiss, French, you name it. So from my experiance it sure seems like everyone is sharing in Americas opportunities.

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USA

Quite sad that 'Inlightened' can spend an incredible amount of time writing post after post after post on this thread...but can't be bothered to view some of Dr Wright's services in full. "He's made up his mind, don't confuse him with facts."

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USA

On Countdown with a deferential Keith Olbermann last night, Obama distanced himself from Wright's racist rants but asked voters to believe that, in 17 years of churchgoing, he did not hear any of the venom or he would have condemned it.

Even more tenuous was his attempt to paint Wright as a spiritual leader caught up in the anger of his generation at racial injustice, a ticked-off Martin Luther King, if you will. That won't wash with those who remember how King stressed rejection of such attitudes at a time when Black Power advocates were promoting them. Senator, Wright is no Martin Luther King. Not even close.

http://ajliebling.blogspot.com/2008/03/will-glib-be-good-enough.html

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USA

@longbeach: --some Obama supporters may feel they need to fill in the gap with attacks of their own where the official campaign does not choose to do so. It is a temptation many of us have had and we applaud Senator Obama for raising us all out of that mire.

It's too bad that Senator Obama couldn't have also lent a helping hand to lift his minister pal out of the very special "spiritual" muck and mire wherein said minister seems to wallow.

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USA

Rojay
Comment No. 1201871
March 15 20:27
USA
It's rather comical to see all of the anti-Obama American posters - desperately clawing to find anything to taint, block and sabotage his impressive campaign

They flood to voting booths anc change their political party from Republican to Democrat for a day - just to vote against Obama.

############################################################
Actually that not true. The Rebulicans swithching in the primaries are voting for Hillary so that the fight goes on as long as possible. I've actually heard people switched, got in the booth and ended up voting for Obama as they couldn't stomach Hillary accidentally winning.

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CAN

--wikipedia,

Do not worry, some are here to spread falsehood. On the matter of R. Wright, Obama spoke so well last night at MSNCB Countdown with K O. At that moment, I saw in Obama a man capable speaking the truth- while distancing himself from some of the unfortunate comments made by Rev. Wright, Obama was able to stand his grounds and defend his name and candidacy. I was moved by his courage and tenacity. There is no one in this race with with his CV and moral certitude!
He is ,indeed, inspiring.

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USA

wikipedia
Comment No. 1201879
March 15 20:34
USA Quite sad that 'Inlightened' can spend an incredible amount of time writing post after post after post on this thread...but can't be bothered to view some of Dr Wright's services in full. "He's made up his mind, don't confuse him with facts."

############################################################


This is a game thats finally gotten interesting.

Bill Clinton has been saying for a long time that Obamas run was a fairy tale. Mr. T says hes known about Pastor Wright for over a year but this is the first I have seen any of this. Maybe the Guardian has been protecting it's readers from any derogitory exposure on Obama. And the rest of the MSM has been pissing themselves to kiss his hand.

So even a conservative like me has been thinking if Obama makes it to November and still is walking on water maybe I should take a chance.

Well I'd say hes up to his neck in it. It may die down and everything will be fine but I doubt it. It's an ongoing story so there should be ongoing posts.


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USA

This is another example of the MSM falling in love with the candidate and screwing the Democratic Party.

If Obama had been vetted in October of 2007 and all the warts were revealed they wouldn't have the front runner of the Party in March being subjected to this.

Hillary has lots of stuff in her closet. She just won't let anyone in to take a look. Maybe some Obama lover in the MSM will find a key to her closet. Get everything out in the open.

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USA

halgeel84
Comment No. 1201894
March 15 20:46
CAN --wikipedia,

Do not worry, some are here to spread falsehood. On the matter of R. Wright, Obama spoke so well last night at MSNCB Countdown with K O.

############################################################

K.O.?

Keith Oblermann?

Darling if you watch that Circus Performer then the rest of your posts are starting to make sence.

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ESP

Wright sounds like an arsehole. Obama should disassociate himself pronto, otherwise he'll end up looking like just another fringe nutjob.

Mind you, the American relationship to religion makes weirdness the norm...

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CAN

Well we see that Jeremiyah Wright has just made a large inroad to popularity at CiF, lets not forget that Obama is running for president of the USA and not Cif.

These statements, though Tomansky is trying so hard to render back his fantasy image of Obama, are just the beginning of the next load of weirdness we will discover about this manchurian, Obama.

There were the Che Guevarra flags at his Houston campaign headquarters which were dismissed as the mistake of local activists.

Then came his wife Michelle who stated that America is a cruel racist country and that she never was proud to be an American until her husband ran for office of president. Needless to say, her years of "shame" include the years her husband, a son of a black immigrant Muslim was a US Senator....no reason for pride there I guess...
This was easily dismissed as ...she s not running , he is...

Then came the reports of an affiliation with a known terrorist from the weather underground who just recently stated that he regretted not bombing more US government buildings....

This was also swept under the rug by the media as some mistaken association which Obama came into ignorant of this terrorist's past. ...

Now its Wright, for the second time as the last time, his association with the "Black David Duke", Louis Farrakhan and the lifetime achievement award given to that rotten piece of scum by Pastor Wright was not enough and was whitewashed by the left leaning media and the race hustlers like Al Sharpton.

Now it is on video....God Damn America, and all the rest, HIV was designed by the US government (just like Farrakhan stated years ago), America created drugs (just like Farrakhan stated years ago)
...911...Jews, Israel, Quadaffi etc.....

So now Obama says he wasn't at the church at the time...perhaps not but to look at all the above and conclude that Barak Obama was not aware, not in the know, not there at the time yadi yada......either makes him look like a liar or a complete idiot who seems to be unaware of the views of many people around him and misunderstands even his own wife.

Can either of the above qualify as President?
Not in the real world for sure but I guess some would argue that reality is some racist conspiracy run by the "right wing" Clinton's.

His whole campaign is about "elect me, trust me, and I will change America" ....Trust is now fading and since he has no specific proposals at all...his reliance on trust was the cornerstone of his campaign...so as trust fades so will his campaign.
Hilary will bury him in Pennsylvania, the state where the USA was born...the God Damn America chant will fill the airwaves....

I can hardly accept that Obama is an idiot so what is left is a radical who re packaged himself and attempted to reach high by hoping to float above the fray by his charisma which is deflating each time another turd is found in next to the skeletons in his closet.

It is sad, even I liked Obama, surely more than Hilary and felt happy that someone like him could go so far in America but now after learning all this and probably much more to come, it would become intellectually dishonest to not see this for what it is:

A sham and an engineered campaign by some high ups in the DNC designing a manchurian candidate hoping that criticism of him would just be played back with the race card....
So far many in the media restrained themselves from criticizing and really questioning Obama as they were all caught up by the story....the first black president...and resisted examining him as they would have any other candidate. It was an SNL joke.
Now more and more will turn their eyes to Obama and the beginning of the end of his honey moon has come.

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CAN

--InLightened,

I am not your darling! Obama, unlike Kerry and Al Gore- can actually stand tall and defend himself. It is refreshing to see a democrat! I wish I can vote for him-- but Americans saw the man- last night- upright strong and firm- he will win. R. Wright, in fact, is a good man dedicated to the poor and the dispossessed. Much of what he said are based on facts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-a-palermo/barack-obama-sets-the-rec_b_91660.html

Now compare that HRC's use of inflaming racial passion to win votes.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23638352#23638352

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/04/obama-skin-tone-darker-in_n_89829.html

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USA

"but Americans saw the man- last night- upright strong and firm-"

Nice try girl, but please dont speak on my name. Read my comment and you'll see that I found him, while sencere, not convincing at all. Not firm, not strong, quite the opposite: short for words, defensive, weak.

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CAN

--Notsofanatic,

I do not speak for anybody. But last night I saw on Countdown-- the man-- Barack Obama- and he is Mighty Good! He can stand his grounds-- he is no body's yes man!

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USA

You Obamists are simply not facing reality. Obama may not agree with Wright's inflammatory statements, but his protestations that he didn't witness the provocative sermons, and/or that he knew Wright to be a good Christian, are weak and evasive. There is no way to spin this thing -- Obama looks either naive or duplicitous. As someone who was probably ready to vote for him, I can only speak for myself -- this is a REAL problem that no amount of feel-good rhetoric is going to overcome.

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CAN

MickeyKovars
These comments sounds recent to me and Obama is very busy man.. He would not have said he did notsew them Rev. said these comments if if he did. He is too smart for that.


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USA

connectthedots says:
"Even more tenuous was his attempt to paint Wright as a spiritual leader caught up in the anger of his generation at racial injustice, a ticked-off Martin Luther King, if you will..at a time when Black Power advocates were promoting them. Senator, Wright is no Martin Luther King. Not even close."

Quite right. It sounds like Mr. Wright is soul brother to the Leroy Brown, Amiri Baraku, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Malcom X, Louis Farrakhan, the Black Panthers, and the Symbionese Liberation Army camp of black thought. I wonder how many times the music of John Coltrane echoed off the ceilings.

What I haven't heard mentioned yet is that, despite the ascertions of Obama, other members of the congregation atleast heard and knew of Wright's viewpoints. Wright's strain of radicalism draws like minded congregants, who hold a common cultural viewpoint.

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GBR

connectdots,

"That won't wash with those who remember how King stressed rejection of such attitudes at a time when Black Power advocates were promoting them. Senator, Wright is no Martin Luther King. Not even close."

Why should he be like MLK? Many young people in the Civil Rights movement were alienated by MLK's style. His style certainly made alot of white folks comfortable. He did however state that if the United States made passive resistence impossible it would make violent resistence inevitable. Rev. Wright didnt advocate violence of racism. Americans arent pacifist by and large. Americans see virtue in the use violence. There are too many hypocrites in America, and especially in the Western world who would laud passive resistence and pacifism by other groups of people but would see it as irrationality and weakness within their own group.

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GBR

Armaros,

Can you provide links and or quotes. I thought that award, named after Rev. Wright, was given by the magazine his daughters' edit?

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GBR

connectdots,

I should have mentioned that when MLK talked about the use of violence his response was directly related to the creation of and attraction to radical groups by young blacks. Both of these movements were responding to racial ineqaulity.

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USA

Sleazy, pathetic and predictable.

The article and many of the responses to it offer a clear demonstration of the utter superficiality of political discourse in the US. WRight's remarks after nineelevenchangedeverthing were, as someone else has noted, absolutely true. No need to go over the long catalog of interventions, invasions, and subversions committed in the name of freedom-- they've already been established repeated here and elsewhere.

What continues to amaze is the constitutional dishonesty of liberals and conservatives alike: they will never confront the most pressing questions of the day when they can bat a soundbyte around like a pinata. Why think, when you can feel? Why study and judge, when you can opine? As always, there is recourse to the unctuous question "would you like to apologize?" For what? For knowing someone who might come from a political and cultural tradition which has historically defined itself against government aggression and institutionalized racism?

Black Power has had a formative impact on black consciousness since well before Stokely Carmichael coined that phrase in 1967. WE can go waaay back to figures such as Martin Delaney, Marcus Garvey, Frederick Douglass, the Maroons, Nat Turner, Toussaint-- any black human being who refused to be lynched, exploited or enslaved. Of course the most opinionated on this thread-- the deep thinkers who equate black resistance with racism--know nothing of all that.


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USA

Listen,

Every time I put the numbers together I think there is about 5 - 12 times we have seen these sermons.

If in 20 years of Sundays which would be 1000 sermons and there was only the 12 that Obama might have had problems then this guy may still be the worthy of consideration.

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USA

halgeel84
Comment No. 1201998
March 15 22:04
CAN --InLightened,

I am not your darling! Obama, unlike Kerry and Al Gore- can actually stand tall and defend himself.

###########################################################

Do you really think so darling. Would a positive comment be useful?

Lets see where this goes!

I think this guty is t

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CAN

Bikhair

Yes you re correct, the daughters edit it but Rev Wright is the magazine s CEO.

http://cofcc.org/?p=1033

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CAN

Bikhair

Yes you re correct, the daughters edit it but Rev Wright is the magazine s CEO.
http://www.trumpetmag.com/pdf/mediakit_sept07/from_the_ceo_sept07.pdf
http://cofcc.org/?p=1033

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CAN

Bikhair

Yes you re correct, the daughters edit it but Rev Wright is the magazine s CEO.
http://www.trumpetmag.com/pdf/mediakit_sept07/from_the_ceo_sept07.pdf
http://cofcc.org/?p=1033

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USA

Bikhair says:
"Many young people in the Civil Rights movement were alienated by MLK's style. His style certainly made alot of white folks comfortable."

MLK represented the mainstream of black asperation. You certainly have history distorted to think that his style "made alot of white folks comfortable."

Bikhair says:
"Rev. Wright didnt advocate violence of racism."

By this time, Wright knows that to do so openly would result in a bad future -- give him credit for not being stupid There's alot of Wright's background that can now be looked at, particularly in the 60s and 70s, when the violence of black extremist groups excerted itself upon the american scene.

Bikhair says:
"Americans arent pacifist by and large. Americans see virtue in the use violence."

I don't expect someone with your views to actually write truth. MLK applied Mahatma Gandi's principles as Gandi applied it toward the British empire. Both only pursued the passivist strategy because their opposition inherently possessed just systems of governance that didn't include everyone. Neither could have or would have pursued the non violent approach if, as you flippantly say, "Americans see virtue in the use [of] violence."

Bikhair says:
"There are too many hypocrites in America, and especially in the Western world who would laud passive resistence and pacifism by other groups of people but would see it as irrationality and weakness within their own group."

It's obvious that you and Wright are fellow travellers.

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CAN

..InLightened

America does not need rev. Right to tell them that it is a country and culture driven by fear and violence and that violence and the culture of militarism is finally eating away America's ethnical/moral cord and economic muscle. The US does needs a miracle and Obama is it.


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GBR

StephenO,

"MLK represented the mainstream of black asperation. You certainly have history distorted to think that his style "made alot of white folks comfortable."

Ofcourse MLK represented mainstream asperations. It was about eqaulity wasnt it? Who advocated black supremacy in the mainstream?

When I say that MLK made alot of white folks comfortable I am not only talking about yesterday but today. Especially today.

"By this time, Wright knows that to do so openly would result in a bad future -- give him credit for not being stupid There's alot of Wright's background that can now be looked at, particularly in the 60s and 70s, when the violence of black extremist groups excerted itself upon the american scene."

During the 60s and 70s, Wright was responsible for acts of violence as part of a black extremist group? No, you didnt just say that.

"I don't expect someone with your views to actually write truth.MLK applied Mahatma Gandi's principles as Gandi applied it toward the British empire. Both only pursued the passivist strategy because their opposition inherently possessed just systems of governance that didn't include everyone. Neither could have or would have pursued the non violent approach if, as you flippantly say, "Americans see virtue in the use [of] violence."

yeah yeah dont even know what ur talking about here.

"Bikhair says:
"There are too many hypocrites in America, and especially in the Western world who would laud passive resistence and pacifism by other groups of people but would see it as irrationality and weakness within their own group."

It's obvious that you and Wright are fellow travellers."

I'm right/Wright though.

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USA

I see no one has yet bothered to watch an entire Trinity United church service. Ah well. For those who missed Obama on Olbermann, this link has both the video and full transcript. Just in case some of you ever develop any curiosity for facts and truth. (Well okay, I accept that Armaros is too far gone for that.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23648883/
clip:
Now, one thing that I do hope to do is to use some of these issues to talk more fully about the question of race in our society, because part of what we're seeing here is Reverend Wright represents a generation that came of age in the 60s.

He's an African-American man, who, because of his life experience continues to have a lot of anger and frustration, and will express that in ways that are very different from me and my generation, partly because I benefited from the struggles of that early generation. And so, part of what we're seeing here is a transition from the past to the future. And I hope that our politics represents the future.

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CAN

Halgeel84
"America does not need rev. Right to tell them that it is a country and culture driven by fear and violence and that violence and the culture of militarism is finally eating away America's ethnical/moral cord and economic muscle. The US does needs a miracle and Obama is it.


"
When Halgeel went to the bottom
and go back to the top of the slide
Where halgeel stop and turn
and go for a ride
Till halgel get to the bottom and I see you again
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Do you don't you want me to love you
I'm coming down fast but I'm miles above you
Tell me tell me come on tell me the answer
and you may be a lover but you ain't no dancer..

....

Look out
Helter skelter
helter skelter
helter skelter
Yeah, hu, hu
Look out cause here she comes ....

....well your post is kinda like Charles Manson heard the song .... ;)

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CAN

Wiki"

Your argument is sound (except the part about me of course) however you must accept that it could be used to justify almost any bigotry since almost all of them are based in loose connotations of different times and negative experiences. Some if these (bigotries) created the greatest of evils deeds.

Notable examples would be, a "defeated and humiliated Germany and its assaulted race" or the various ethnic conflicts piling up bodies on CNN.

It is a form of relativism and a really damaging one at that.
Acceptance of these arguments even in "wright vs wrong" contexts do not mitigate their dangers as perceptions drive reality to all humans, especially groups.

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USA

Armaros, there's a difference between justifying and explaining/understanding.

Obama made his opinion of Wright's comments crystal clear = which you would know if you had followed the link to the entire interview.

Not that you're likely to follow this link either (you show a remarkable lack of curiosity), but others might find it interesting. It's by a colleague of Obama's at the U of C Law School:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-oped0314obamamar14,0,7185898.story

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USA

Bikhair, you misunderstood my point about MLK representing the mainstream of black asperation. What we're hearing from Rev. Wright is that he took the road not traveled by MLK. Wright took the road that poured rage into black communities. And so many these black urban communities
grew increasingly disfunctional over time. The US president at the time, Lyndon Johnson, asked a Harlem congressman by the name of Adam Clayton Powell Jr, to fashion a good portion of what became "The War on Poverty." The long term effect of those policies went on to destroy black families and communities.

And the Rev. Wrights within black communities have proven ineffectual, and complicitous, in the evolution of black drug gangs and violence. The good Rev. Wright, and others like him, will not accept the irresponsibility of their youth nor the irresponsibility of their violent leadership and how it destroyed their communities. Even today, people like Wright and a Jesse Jackson are just shells. It will take subsequent generations to repair the damage.

You didn't catch what I was saying about Wright "not advocating violence." To reparaphrase what I said, it would be foolish of Wright to advocate violence -- he knows where that would lead him.

Regarding MLK and Mahatma Gandi, if you're unaware of this connection, than you know little about MLK or the American Civil Rights movement in general. MLK understood that the American constitution represented a social compact among white/angle americans, which held that all men were created equal. MLK's entire goal was to have America's social
compact to include all people other than white/anglos.

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CAN

wiki

I understand but my original point was about how this will affect his campaign and if you so care, try to see my point objectively.

I personally like Obama and said so on many occasions on Cif, this despite all knowing where I stand on things.
I don't need anybody to defend him from me or trying to make me accept him or his candidacy.
The reality is that he is surrounded by radical elements upon whom you or I may differ in judgment of but effectively these accounts are eating away at his support which is founded upon a vision of positive hopes and his winning personality .
The more he deflects and defends, the more is carved away from his support base gradually, something the Clintons also understand and use. It is the way it is in politics.
He now found himself on a turf where he never intended going to, the race relations debate and the history of the radical left and black movements.
Now he is caught in between a core of his support base and the general appeal needed to win.
I blame the media in large part as they almost systematically promoted him as the ratings draw and idealism he represented and thus the time it took for the maggots to crawl up from under the stone was longer, left to the end of the campaign whereas if they came out earlier they could have been dealt with similarly to how Billy got away with Jennifer Flowers at the end of the primaries in '92.
Now these skeletons will rattle way into the general election if not killing him through the Hilary grind.
Having said that I too am disturbed by the sheer amount of these skeletons and the louder they rattle now that the media is almost turning away from Obamamania as their MO is ratings and if Obamacaca wins more than that is what we will see.
Try to see his Fox interview where he was uneasy and devoid of his usual self confident posture...
He was still superbly smooth as usual ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT-z9q6E_3k&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

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USA

Halgeel84 says:
"America does not need rev. Right to tell them that it is a country and culture driven by fear and violence and that violence and the culture of militarism is finally eating away America's ethnical/moral cord and economic muscle."

Many other detractors of America have echod similar concepts about the US since the nation's inception. Despite what you think you know about the state of america's economic muscle, the global system in place is growing more people out of poverty than at any time in history. Countries throughout Central and South America are experiencing growth at rates greater than 4.5%. Many countries in Africa are experiencing growth rates exceeding 5%. The GDP growth of asian and south asian countries are the world's greatest. Eastern Europe and the Russians similarly exceed US growth rates.

And before you imagine that that is the point, bear in mind that US economic policies are geared to keeping GDP rates to go no higher than 4%.

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USA

Here's the full transcript of Obama's interview with the Chicago Trib on Friday. (It's also on the Trib site, but you may have to register for that one.)
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Obama_on_the_lens.html
clip:
And so the question then for me is what's my relationship to that past? You know, I can completely just disown it and say I don't understand it, but I do understand it. I understand the context with which he developed his views, but also can still reject unequivocally...But as I said, it doesn't excuse what the reverend said, and I'm very troubled by it. And if, as I said, if I had heard those sermons, if I had been there when those sermons were taking place, I would have raised that with him, and if I had thought that that was the message being promoted on a consistent basis within that church, I don't think I could be a consistent part of it.

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USA

Correction - that link was NOT the full interview (although a good-sized section), but this is:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-obamafullwebmar16,0,6442594,print.story

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CAN

StephenO
Comment No. 1202311
March 16 3:44
USA Halgeel84 says:
"America does not need rev. Right to tell them that it is a country and culture driven by fear and violence and that violence and the culture of militarism is finally eating away America's ethnical/moral cord and economic muscle."

"Many other detractors of America have echod similar concepts about the US since the nation's inception. Despite what you think you know about the state of america's economic muscle, the global system in place is growing more people out of poverty than at any time in history. Countries throughout Central and South America are experiencing growth at rates greater than 4.5%."

really?

"Many countries in Africa are experiencing growth rates exceeding 5%. The GDP growth of asian and south asian countries are the world's greatest. Eastern Europe and the Russians similarly exceed US growth rates."


But you do not credit US global leadership to rosy neo-liberal triumph of the market! Do you?
"And before you imagine that that is the point, bear in mind that US economic policies are geared to keeping GDP rates to go no higher than 4%."

How do you figure 15 Billion dollars a month the US spent each month finance its misguided Iraq war?

"This i helping the global economy, is it"?

Not all of us have to eat up Dick Cheney and George W. Bush lies. The economic meltdown of the US is obvious to the naked eyes--it is in the open. American people are paying the price of Bush's misrule.

P.S, many African nations who are doing well are doing so because of the rise prices in the commodity market- such as oil and gas ;- China's penetration deep in Africa is also having an effect.

On the other hand, the Bush administration, Condi Rice and her student, Jendyi Frazer- has been able to destroy Somalia, their blind support for Ethiopia's ruthless dictator, Meles Zinawi- has sent Ethiopia into the path to destruction - trust me on this- Ethiopia is going to explode[war between Ethiopia and Eritrea on side and between Ethiopia and Somalia on the other. This is will bring into reality the Crusade the Bush administration has hoped for and helped to bring about in the Horn of Africa.

We all have seen recent crisis in Kenya few months ago. So US leadership has failed in Africa spectacularly under George Bush's war on terror- a narrowly conceived militaristic trajectory.


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GBR

As any honest student of American history, politics and culture will tell you, nothing terrifies white Americans more than an angry black person. In particular, an angry black man. Jeremiah Wright, in those video sermons, was just that. And he is, thereby, terrifying. Obama will be duly punished by voters for his 20 year association with him, no matter what his personal views on the matter.

What I am surprised at, though, is the vehemence of the denunciations of Wrights comments made by some Brits here on Cif.... all that bile for a man who shouts 'Goddamn America'? Mymymy... how many Brits have shouted that over the past 8 years, 8 hours, 8 mins...?

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GBR

merkinonparis

"What the Pastor said was true.
Where is the problem?"

For most Americans "America" is a religion to be worshipped. the idea that this great good (which they are brainwashed to believe since childhood) is actually evil is heretical for them and they cant take it. Any healthy society would welcome Wrights comments and reflect - Americans are insane fanatics so reject any critisicm of their holy land

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USA

"And if, as I said, if I had heard those sermons, if I had been there when those sermons were taking place, I would have raised that with him, and if I had thought that that was the message being promoted on a consistent basis within that church, I don't think I could be a consistent part of it."

Nobody can fault your consistency in having missed church on those days when "those sermons" were given. What an odd and remarkable coincidence.

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CAN


--HildebrandBowman,

if I were I would give the American people more credit than that: In fact while CIF and other western media outlet have been spinning the unfortunate remarks by R. Wright- other stories with concrete implications for who wins the Demos nomination have been taking shape in the heartland of America such as Iowa! White America is supporting Barack Obama because they are willing to give a chance Barack Obama's message of change- they see in him an American before he is a black man; they can see that he loves his country. Read the two following links and see who is winning the trust of the voters and who is trying to win votes by using power, money and influence!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/15/obama-expands-delegate-le_n_91719.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/us/politics/15donate.html?_r=1&ex=1363320000&en=8db524cb5f9ffd6c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

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GBR

StephenO,

I'm shocked that you would suggest that the rage in the Black community during those times were caused by people like Rev. Wright and not the ineqaulity, disenfranchisement, police brutality, and racism. Even MLK admitted that the use of violent resistence would be inevitable. When MLK was murdered the black community erupted, not in song and dance of civil disobedience.

You fail to realize the ideological differences that many of the youth had with the older generation in the Civil Rights movement. These people were also inspired by idealogues outside of the US.

If Rev. Wright was such a poisonous man then maybe Obama would have grown up to join the Blood gangs of Chicago.

"You didn't catch what I was saying about Wright "not advocating violence." To reparaphrase what I said, it would be foolish of Wright to advocate violence -- he knows where that would lead him."

Or maybe he just didnt believe in the advocation of violence. Its quite possible. Not every black man with a temper wants to hit you over the head.

"The good Rev. Wright, and others like him, will not accept the irresponsibility of their youth nor the irresponsibility of their violent leadership and how it destroyed their communities."

Racism destroyed black communities.

"And the Rev. Wrights within black communities have proven ineffectual, and complicitous, in the evolution of black drug gangs and violence."

Really? I could have swarn the Black Panthers, which did become a violent drug gang began as a social justice movement to end police brutality in Oakland California. It was the Oakland police who were complicitious in its evolution.

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CAN

OK, I have nothad my first cup of coffee!
Here it is again.

halgeel84
Comment No. 1202830
March 16 12:11
CAN
--HildebrandBowman,

if I were you would give the American people more credit than that: In fact while CIF and other western media outlets have been spinning the unfortunate remarks by R. Wright- other stories with concrete implications for who wins the Demos nomination have been taking shape in the heartland of America such as Iowa! White America is supporting Barack Obama because they are willing to give a chance Barack Obama's message of change- they see in him an American before he is a black man; they can see that he loves his country. Read the two following links and see who is winning the trust of the voters and who is trying to win votes by using power, money and influence!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/15/obama-expands-delegate-le_n_91719.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/us/politics/15donate.html?_r=1&ex=1363320000&en=8db524cb5f9ffd6c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

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USA

Suggestion for Hildebrandbowman, mirrortobigots, and bikhair

You guys have got America down pat, with some very useful ideas on how America can lift itself from its insanity. The problem is that in posting on the Guardian, you are largely preaching (pace Reverend Wright) to the converted.

I, for one, would feel much relieved if you would start posting on American venues like the NY Times etc. If America is to improve, the people should be made aware of the prescriptions for change of typical Obama supporters from "across the pond". My absolute druthers would be for one or, better yet, all of you to work on the Obama campaign as speechwriters, but I guess that's unlikely to happen.

You can, however, point out to Americans the absolute validity of Reverend Wright's views. Already I perceive some backsliding on the part of the candidate, who - dare I say out of political expediency - has begun to repudiate these views. By posting in America, you would not only keep the candidate on the straight and narrow, but more importantly, offer a "way out" of the present impasse, due to your enthusiastic championing of Reverend Wright's "teachings". It is essential that any American who is wavering in his commitment to the new politics be made aware of your critique.

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USA

HildebrandBowman
Comment No. 1202795
March 16 11:55
GBR

As any honest student of American history, politics and culture will tell you, nothing terrifies white Americans more than an angry black person. In particular, an angry black man. Jeremiah Wright, in those video sermons, was just that. And he is, thereby, terrifying. Obama will be duly punished by voters for his 20 year association with him, no matter what his personal views on the matter.

############################################################

This is very accurate. But you left off that this sort of happended in a place thats not really supposed to be political, at least for many white churches it isn't. Additionally it gets you thinking about what all these black reverends actually teach? You know the Reverend Al Sharpton, and the Reverend Jessie Jackson and the Reverend Jeremiah Wright.

The real question is Obamas first reponse enough or will this be big news for the next two weeks. If this runs very long he is doomed. Even Iowa and New Hampshire will drop him like a hot potato.

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USA

wikipedia
Comment No. 1202268
March 16 2:38
USA

I see no one has yet bothered to watch an entire Trinity United church service. Ah well. For those who missed Obama on Olbermann, this link has both the video and full transcript. Just in case some of you ever develop any curiosity for facts and truth. (Well okay, I accept that Armaros is too far gone for that.)

############################################################
I would love to watch one. Can you send me the link for "God Damn American" or "US invents AIDs to kill Black People"

Popcorn is almost ready.

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USA

@wikipedia: I see no one has yet bothered to watch an entire Trinity United church service. Ah well. For those who missed Obama on Olbermann, this link has both the video and full transcript. Just in case some of you ever develop any curiosity for facts and truth. (Well okay, I accept that Armaros is too far gone for that.)

Fine, but could you also post the link to the follow-up documentary "Candidate Obama repudiates as inflammatory and appalling the words of his minister, out of fear of losing votes."

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USA

We all know Oprah has been behind Obama. Oprah is also a Member of the Trinity Church.

Take a look at the message boards at Oprah.com

http://www.oprah.com/community/community/world/news?view=discussions

Some of the thread titles are quite disturbing:

"It's 3:00 AM and Rev Wright Is In The Whitehouse"

"NEW TAPE RELEASED WITH WRIGHT SPEWING ANTI-SEMITIC REMARKS"

Maybe they need a moderator.

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GBR

Yes, it's true Obama distanced himself - eventually - from Paster Wright's Utube comments. You, Michael Tomasky, know just how long this has been going on, as (to your credit) you flagged this problem several weeks ago. it was only after the adoring US media made this more of an issue that he wrote to Ms. Huffington's heavily-biased organ.

But Senator Obama then went on to say that these were "isolated statements" taken out of context, and that the good reverend had a good deal else to say. Disingenuous or what? We know that Adolf Hitler loved animals, and spoke passionately about them - does that in any way excuse his hate-speech against Jews, Gays, Gipsies?

You describe sermons in African-American churches as pressure-valves for a disenfranchised community. I have great sympathy for that view. However, hate-speech is something different from empowerment. You might as well say that BNP meetings in England are "pressure valves" for white, disenfranchised Working Class Englishmen.

The fact that Pastor Wright is no longer an active part of the Obama Campaign, in no way puts an end to this story: not by a long chalk!

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NOR

Well I prefer Hillary but I do think it is unfair making Obama responsible for the pastor's sermons. Ok so Reverend Wright did mouth off about oss whities being responsible for a lot of bad things that have happened. Maybe he's got a point! Apart from that isn't this just a timeless bemoaning of the powers that be, because of whom we are lost and unable to find our way to Jerusalem. Ignore the words; listen to the music. I am sure that Pastor Wright is a typical black preacher, a good man with a kind heart.

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USA

@ripvan

Your post is both fairminded and reasonable; I say this as a supporter of Hillary also. What is impossible to overlook, however, is that part and parcel of the Obama campaign is the tireless insistance on ending the "divisions" in this country, with the implication that all the other candidates are divisive. It would be impossibly naive to assume that Senator Obama had no inkling of the views of Minister Wright, who must be some sort of icon of divisiveness. It then becomes hypocritical in the extreme to retain ties to the minister and only sever these when the story makes the national press.

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GBR

Ripvan,

How long you been sleeping? Have you seen the YouTube videos?

The ones I saw include the Pastor gyrating with his hips to graphically illustrate what he believes Bill Clinton has been doing to the Black American people?

And how about 9/11? In case you are suffering the same delusion as the Pastor, let me put you straight - the only people responsible for the senseless destruction and murder of thousands of innocent lives - American and foreigners - are Osama bin Laden and Al-quaida.

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GBR

"You, Michael Tomasky, know just how long this has been going on, as (to your credit) you flagged this problem several weeks ago. it was only after the adoring US media made this more of an issue that he wrote to Ms. Huffington's heavily-biased organ."

As the above post by Insouciance says: Precisely.

Thank you, Tomasky... your inclination for Clinton hasn't ever been in doubt. It's playing a devious but none-too-subtle game. Obama's Achilles heel is doubtless the religious attachment. But could he in the funding-media driven exercise have foresworn it? It's all a charade. The civilized world clearly doesn't know how - or has no stomach - to deal with it.

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USA

It's clear some of the posters here haven't seen a fire yet they weren't determined to pour petrol/gasoline on. And they criticize Wright for a few sermons out of 30 years? Pot, kettle, black. Yes, we know you want to trash everyone and everything in America, even while you claim to support it. We don't know why, but that probably doesn't matter. It's a shame to see someone let their life be taken over by hate and cynicism, but that's your lookout. It's just another addiction, and until you hit bottom and decide to get your act together, there's little anyone else can do to help you. Meanwhile, the rest of us are occupied with building for the future. Preferably with Obama.

As for Tomasky knowing about Wright for awhile - well yes, where have the rest of you been?! Wright was going to speak when Obama announced his presidential candidacy, but it was decided he was too 'controversial'. HOWEVER, don't assume that means Obama and Team knew about the truly inflammatory (aka fire and brimstone) statements that have been shown on YouTube and Fox lately.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised none of the 'investigative reporters' have tracked down just who it was who put together this ridiculous 'greatest hits' DVD. If I had to make a wild guess, I'd check out the daughter who edits The Trumpet magazine - the one who recently gave Farrakhan the award. There's a well-known 'crabs in the barrel' syndrome in the black community (and any other 'ghetto' community) which refers to dragging back down anyone who looks like he/she might be succeeding. A sort of sibling rivalry in some cases. Even the Rev. Wright himself has shown remarkable timing in some of his more off-the-wall statements 'supporting' Obama. I still think Wright has many fine qualities, has done many good things, has his heart in the right place - but just the same, with friends like these....

I have no doubt Wright sincerely wants Obama to be President, but Wright also wants to justify some of his own old beliefs (same as Ferraro). We all know plenty of older people who do something similar, although few have such a public audience. As my father used to say about others, "He's an old man, let it go." I think that's still pretty good advice. Don't fight the battles of yesterday, but focus on the battles of today and tomorrow.

Wright's future is behind him, but ours isn't.

Which is why I think Obama's statement on all this is correct. As he's said before, we have to stop replaying these old 'baby boomer' issues ad infinitum. Wright is a product of his time, just as Ferraro is, and they still see things through the lens of the 60's when they were in their 'formative' years. We need to move beyond that. The world is different now, and we have different challenges to deal with. So let's get on with it.

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CAN

--wikipedia,

and do you think after with E. Muhammed did to M X, Barack Obama should have been a tiny bit careful with his relatioship with the Rev. Wright? And another thing: I remember a scene from the film out of Africa in which African chief refused to let little kids in his village go to school because he did not want these children to gain more knowledge than the chief! Barack Obama needs to stay off the religion thing. Period. Obama is handling the situation as best as he could but must learn from this and carefully re-examine his relationship with this church and not just R. Wright.

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GBR

==due to your enthusiastic championing of Reverend Wright's "teachings".==

Dear properbostonian,

What are you blathering about? Please take the time to read what someone has written before 'calling them out', as the saying goes. I have written nothing in support of Wright. Also I neither spoke to Americans nor offered you any advice; my comments being directed at my fellow Brits; and this being a British paper, I did not believe I needed your or anyone else's permission to do so.

You seem to have a very large chip on your shoulder. Please leave me out of your rants unless and until you are able to address what I have actually written, instead of your personal imaginings.

Cheerio,

HB

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CAN

A Cool SNL video On Obama, Hillary Ferraro and Rev. Wright


http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/play.shtml?mea=229454

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DNK

''"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and the black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

We can debate the factual merits of Wright's arguments, but let's leave all that aside''

Let's.

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GBR

I found this intriguing and informative in relation to this deabate:

"Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero

Frank Schaeffer, 03.16.2008

When my late father, Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer, denounced America and called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b_91774.html

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GBR

StephenO,

I think Rev. Wright's biggest crime may have been plagerism.

AMERICA BEWARE!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bOOL3BYaIEQ

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USA

Doesn't anyone else think it odd that clips of old Wright sermons were released just after all those military men were endorsing Obama's qualifications to be Commander in Chief?
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/03/sweet_in_chicago_obama_flags_m.html

I googled Ralph Wooten (most unique name on the list) and a total of one (1) reference was displayed (the other 15 were other Wootens). And it was from AUSTRIA!
http://news.google.com/news?q=ralph+wooten
Obama Receives Endorsement of Flag Officers from Army, Navy and ...
PR-Inside.com (Pressemitteilung), Austria - 17 hours ago
Major General Ralph Wooten. Wooten is a former Commanding General of the Army's Chemical Arsenal. His civilian corporate career includes Management of large ...

There was a whole speech and presentation thing at a museum in Chicago with the miltary brass present wearing all their medals - this wasn't just a press release of names - and look at how much coverage it got. PATHETIC.

But not to give up, I tried googling:
http://news.google.com/news?q=obama+military+endorsements
Many more news stories displayed - but front and center was a photo of Obama and the Rev. Wright with the stories about the infamous sermons (the 'major' version of a Google news display, complete with links to 'all 1,277 news articles')!

This is Google's idea of 'relevance ranking"?!?! I'm just sayin'....


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USA

The 9-11 statements were bad enough. The really horrible ranting was when, during another sermon, the preacher started screaming that people shouldn't sing "Gd bless America!" but rather "Gd Damn America!" he repeated the line, standing at the pulpit, about four times. Gd Damn America! Over and over.... It was terrible. For a preacher to swear and take Gd's name in vain like that is just abhorrent.

This will really be disastrous for Obama, to have his pastor and mentor of 20 years be found to espouse these unpatriotic, hateful, bigoted, and, frankly, insane views (i.e., his claims that white people 'invented' HIV to kill blacks). Obama's claim he never heard or knew of such sentiments from his mentor and pastor simply strains belief.

Obama and his wife's partiotism and political truthfullness have already been called into account, and this episode will only make things much, much worse.

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USA

hyperlexis, you obviously never heard a typical 'fire and brimstone' sermon. Whatever. If you're shocked by Wright, try a 'fundamentalist' minister in the U.S., such as John Hagee or Rod Parsley (sought-after endorser and 'spiritual advisor', respectively, to John McCain). Are you going to start trashing McCain next? I didn't think so.

For those interested in a more typical Wright sermon, Marc Ambinder posted the full text of the 'Audacity of Hope' sermon:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/for-the-record.html

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USA

To halgeel84

Stop acting like you're so up-in-arms about Billy Graham's comments. What he implied -- that Jews in America control the media -- is exactly how you (and too many other people posting here) feel. You injected AIPAC into this discussion, you froth about Israel every chance you get and now all of a sudden you're outraged --outraged! -- about something said four decades ago. Spare me. I'll take my chances with an evangelist over an Israel-hating lefty any day of the week.

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USA

Barack Obama is only sorry that his true beliefs were caught on tape. Maybe if he had given 22,000 more to this race baiting man of satan, they wouldn't have had to sell these awful diatribes. The reverand was in the marines. People in the marines died by the hundreds on December 7, 1941, all due to a drity sneak attack by the japanese who got exactly what they deserved whenthey were nuked. This guy, by supporting the japanese is a traitor to the marine corp. Barack Obama has this guy as an advisor, so I'd like to know is he advising him on how Obama "wlii bring us all together"? Lets face it Obama has been unmasked as the anti-american hater that he is. He'd make a great European.

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USA

Lots of ordinary Americans, black, white, brown, yellow, red and all the rest, were thinking to themselves and even saying out loud that we had 9-11 coming. If you're informed about US foreign policy and honest with yourself, it's really an inevitable conclusion. It's only in the corporate media that the idea is taboo and it's forbidden to treat 9-11 as anything but some Sacred Moment where Everything Changed and the US was purified of sin and converted into the Great Crusader for Good in the World.

Wright's comments won't make any difference.

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GBR

Michael Tomasky is this blog's author.
It is always important to know something about the background of an author, especially one, who is always on the political attack. However,
.
The Guardian is very guarded and briefly states "Michael Tomasky is editor of Guardian America".
.
BookReporter : http://www.bookreporter.com/authors/au-tomasky-michael.asp
.
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tomasky
.
Now apart from -
"I grew up (Morgantown, West Virginia) and to my father's life (he was a United Mine Workers shop steward as a young man, before he got his law degree)" who is agent Tomasky?
.
This question should keep many of you very busy before it self erases!
Open to all members including Mike Read; our own very cool and entertaining blogsman.

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