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The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)


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Old 12-24-06, 06:21 PM
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Default The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Current Version: v0.81


Jason A. Engle

The paladin is the epitome of the holy knight in shining armor. A beacon of heroic Good. Yet in the core books... it seems like there's no reason to bother with her past level 6, especially since the Cleric can do what she does just as well (Actually, better). However, this shall be the case no longer!

It should be said that if you're the sort of person who thinks core material is all perfect and good and balanced, that Fighters can stand side by side with Wizards at level 20 and such nonsense, this is not the fix for you. However, if you do see the need for rectifying balance and making the paladin a worthwhile class right up to high levels with greater power, versatility, *and* flavor, then you may well have found the solution you've been looking for!

This variant is mostly the same as the base paladin at lower levels, since the paladin is pretty much fine there. It continues to increase the power of Lay on Hands and allow it to use up some of its healing points to cure various other ailments (and just throwing out the Remove Disease ability). It changes smite/day into smite/encounter, since the high level paladin *should* be so badass that she smites all day. It gives the paladin switchable auras to support the party. It also rebuilds the paladin's spell list and gives her more spells per day. At level 5, it allows the paladin to choose from a variety different specializations instead of just getting a special mount (which is now part of the mounted specialization), allowing for a variety of different and unique styles. Further, the paladin has access to a new type of feat, the "Smite Feat," which allows the paladin to expend smite attempts in order to create a variety of other effects, enabling her to use her smite evil ability to cover a variety of versatile circumstances and perform various maneuvers.

The paladin is now a more powerful force in melee (and not just a couple rounds per day!), who uplifts her comrades with her heroic and divine prescence, and an effective backup healer.

This class is still not on the power level of well-played full spellcasters (Particularly at higher levels), and it is not intended to be. However, it *is* relevant at higher levels, and is meant to be balanced against the classes generally regarded as well built and balanced, such as the Rogue, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, decent prestige classes, or... monsters of the appropriate CR. It's meant to be in the upper-middle range of class balance.

Finally, this is a work in progress, and more material will be added in the future.

And without further ado... I offer you...

The Paladin
Hit Die: d10
BAB: Full
Saves: Good Fort, Bad Reflex, Bad Will
Skill Points at 1st level: (2+int modifier) x4
Skill Points at each additional Level: 2 + Int Modifier
Class Skills: The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Code:
The Paladin           Hit Die: d10                                     
        Base                                                                             
        Attack            Fort   Ref    Will                                             
Level   Bonus             Save   Save   Save   Special                                    
1st     +1                +2     +0     +0     Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/encounter
2nd     +2                +3     +0     +0     Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
3rd     +3                +3     +1     +1     Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Hero's Courage
4th     +4                +4     +1     +1     Turn Undead
5th     +5                +4     +1     +1     Smite Evil 2/encounter, specialization
6th     +6/+1             +5     +2     +2     Panacean Touch
7th     +7/+2             +5     +2     +2     Bonus Feat
8th     +8/+3             +6     +2     +2     Aura of Devotion
9th     +9/+4             +6     +3     +3     Revitalizing Touch
10th    +10/+5            +7     +3     +3     Smite Evil 3/encounter
11th    +11/+6/+1         +7     +3     +3     Vigilance
12th    +12/+7/+2         +8     +4     +4     Refreshing Touch
13th    +13/+8/+3         +8     +4     +4     Aura of Resolve
14th    +14/+9/+4         +9     +4     +4     Bonus Feat
15th    +15/+10/+5        +9     +5     +5     Smite Evil 4/Encounter
16th    +16/+11/+6/+1     +10    +5     +5     Break Enchantment
17th    +17/+12/+7/+2     +10    +5     +5     Constant Vigilance
18th    +18/+13/+8/+3     +11    +6     +6     Aura of Faith
19th    +19/+14/+9/+4     +11    +6     +6     Energizing Touch
20th    +20/+15/+10/+5    +12    +6     +6     Smite Evil 5/Encounter, A Hero Never Falls
Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. It is not a switchable aura.

Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

Smite Evil (Su)
Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. This damage is not multiplied on a critical, or by any other multiplier that would not count "bonus dice." If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that encounter.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per encounter at 20th level. An encounter is considered over when you do no strenuous action for 5 minutes or more.

Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws, up to a maximum of her class level.

Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. A Paladin may fill this pool with a full minute (10 rounds) of concentration and prayer. Refreshing the pool brings the Paladin's pool of healing back up to the maximum (Paladin level * Charisma Bonus). She may fill her healing pool a number of times per day equal to 1 + half her Charisma modifier (rounded down).

Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature. The target may make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 Paladin Level+Cha) to negate the damage.

The paladin's Lay on Hands gains additional capabilities as she progresses in level as a paladin. The paladin may use all additional effects in conjunction with healing, as long as she spends enough points.

Switchable Auras
All auras except Aura of Good are switchable as a move action. You may have only one aura other than Aura of Good active at a given time. These auras function while the paladin is conscious, but not while the paladin is unconscious or dead. The paladin's auras only affect her allies, and not the paladin herself.

Aura of Courage (Ex)
At 3rd level, the paladin may exude an aura of courage that inspires her allies. Each ally within 30 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Aura of Courage's bonuses scale by level. At level 8, allies gain +6 to saves against fear, and a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls. At level 13, allies gain +8 to saves against fear, and a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls. At level 18, allies gain immunity to fear, and +3 morale bonus to attack rolls. This is a switchable Aura.

Hero's Courage (Ex)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Hero's Courage


A paladin has no fear


Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Turn Undead (Su)
When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 2 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of her level.

Specialization
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin may choose any of three abilities representing three different specializations: Charging Smite (Aggressive), Special Mount (Mounted), and Argent Bastion (Defensive)

Specializations

(Sidebar) Behind the Scenes: Specializations

Specializations are designed in order to emphasize a paladin's specific fighting style, or to make certain choices more viable (For example, fighting with a sword and shield is typically a suboptimal choice of armament compared to a two-handed weapon). DMs: If a player in your campaign has an idea for a particular esoteric fighting style or whatever that might otherwise be less than viable, but is nonetheless interesting and supported by his character's flavor, you may consider designing a Specialization in order to facilitate this choice. Just decide what abilities it grants (usually 4, granted at level 5, 8, 11, and 15) and what bonus feats it makes available (as a rule of thumb, keep it to 5). Suddenly, the paladin designed around throwing weapons (perhaps the Paladin from Hellsing who throws holy bayonets, for example) becomes viable and more fun to play!

In fact, you could even create a unique specialization for each church or faith within your campaign setting, guaranteeing that paladins of every faith will be even more unique! Essentially, it can be an efficient medium for creating class variants on the paladin, allowing new concepts without designing a full PrC or anything.


Argent Bastion
The paladin gains a number of abilities as she rises in level.

Argent Bastion


Sir Merrick Doul, a high level paladin with the Argent Bastion specialization.

Code:
                  
Level   Ability                                    
5th     Shield Ward
8th     Cover
11th    Retribution
15th    Divine Wall
Shield Ward
The Paladin gains Shield Ward as a bonus feat, even if the paladin does not meet the prerequisites.

Cover (Ex)
Once per round, as long as the paladin is wielding a shield (and is not flatfooted or otherwise prevented from taking action), the paladin may interpose herself between an adjacent ally and an incoming attack as an immediate action. The paladin absorbs all damage the damage from this single attack, and any additional effects it might have (such as something requiring a save, etc). You must decide to use this ability after the attacker determines the attack has succeeded but before she rolls damage.

Retribution
The paladin gains Retribution* as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Divine Wall (Su)
As long as the paladin wields a shield, her square blocks line of effect for all effects. For example, if allies hid behind the paladin when a dragon used its breath weapon from the opposite side, it would only hit the paladin.



Divine Wall



Charging Smite
As PHB II variant.

Charging Smite


Jumal d'Arrah, a paladin with the Charging Smite specialization, proves more than a match for this Slaad


Special Mount (Sp)
The paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

Aa full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains until dismissed. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears with the same hp it had previously, as well as any other effects it may have had (though some may have worn off because of their duration). Whether the mount is with you or not, things like poison run their course. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

When the paladin rests for 8 hours (or long enough to restore his spells), the mount is restored to full hp.

Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

The Paladin's Mount


Alhandra, a high level paladin with the Special Mount specialization

The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well.

A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).

Code:
Paladin   Bonus     Natural    Strength                                                
Level      HD      Armor Adj.    Adj.    Int   Special                                    
5th        +2         +4         +1       6  Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws
8th        +4         +6         +2       7  Improved speed
11th       +6         +8         +3       8  Command creatures of its kind
15th       +8         +10        +4       9  Spell resistance
Paladin’s Mount Basics
Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

Bonus HD
Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Natural Armor Adj.
The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus.

Str Adj.
Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score.

Int
The mount’s Intelligence score.

Empathic Link (Su)
The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically.

Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.

Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
Share Spells

At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount.

The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).
Share Saving Throws

For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

Improved Speed (Ex)
The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet.

Command (Sp)
Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + ½ paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect.

Spell Resistance (Ex)
A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance.


A paladin with the Special Mount specialization faces off with a Blackguard



Panacean Touch (Su)
Upon reaching 6th level, whenever a paladin expends at least 10 points of healing from her lay on hands she may remove poison from any person she touches, and whenever she spends at least 20 points of healing she may remove disease from any person she touches. This is in addition to hit points restored.

Bonus Feats
At 7th level, and again at 14th level, the Paladin gains a bonus feat. At each such oppurtunity, a paladin may choose any Smite feat*, or a feat drawn from the following list. If a feat is labelled with "Aggressive", "Defensive", or "Mounted", then that feat may only be chosen by a paladin of the corresponding specialization.

Bonus Feats

Divine Cleansing (CW)
Divine Might (CW)
Divine Resistance (CW)
Divine Shield (CW)
Divine Vigor (CW)
Sacred Vengeance (CW)
Extra Smiting*
Divine Armor (PHB II)
Divine Justice (PHB II)

Shield Specialization (Defensive) (PHB II)
Armor Specialization (Defensive) (PHB II)
Agile Shield Fighter (Defensive) (PHB II)
Active Shield Defense (Defensive) (PHB II)
Improved Shield Bash (Defensive)

Mounted Combat (Mounted)
Mounted Archery (Mounted)
Ride-By Attack (Mounted)
Spirited Charge (Mounted)
Trample (Mounted)

Intimidating Strike (Aggressive) (PHB II)
Power Attack (Aggressive)
Cleave (Aggressive)
Great Cleave (Aggressive)
Weapon Focus (Aggressive)


Aura of Devotion (Ex)
Upon reaching 8th level, the Paladin may exude an Aura of Devotion. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants a +1 morale bonus to AC to all allies within 30 feet. At level 13, this bonus increases to +2. At level 18, this bonus increases to +3. This is a switchable aura.

Revitalizing Touch (Su)
Beginning at 9th level The Paladin can use her Lay on Hands ability to remove ability damage from a person she touches when she heals at least 5 points per point of ability damage to be removed (It is possible for only a portion of ability damage to be restored if the paladin does not spend enough to cure them all). This is in addition to hit points restored.

Vigilance (Su)
Upon reaching 11th level, the Paladin's ability to detect evil increases. When she uses her Detect Evil ability, the area of effect is a 60-foot radius centered on the Paladin, rather than a 60-foot cone.

Refreshing Touch (Su)
Beginning at 12th level Paladin can remove exhaustion, fatigue,sickness, and nausea with a touch whenever she spends at least 10 points from her lay on hands pool. This is in addition to hit points restored.

Aura of Resolve (Ex)
Beginning at 13th level, the paladin gains Aura of Resolve. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants the ability to reroll one Fortitude save every round to any ally within a 30ft radius of her. The decision to reroll must be made after the roll is made but before the result is declared. This is a switchable Aura.

Break Enchantment (Su)
Beginning at 16th level, the Paladin can break an enchantment with a touch whenever she expends at least 40 points of healing from her lay on hands ability. Her caster level for the purpouse of this effect is equal to her paladin caster level, just as if she had actually cast the Break Enchantment spell. This is in addition to hit points restored.

Constant Vigilance (Su)
Upon reaching 17th level, the Paladin is always vigilant for any signs of Evil, and her eyes begin to glow with an inner light. Her Detect Evil no longer requires any concentration to maintain, and has an unlimited duration.

Aura of Faith (Ex)
At 18th level, the paladin gains Aura of Faith. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants the ability to reroll one Will save every round to any one ally within a 30ft radius of her. The decision to reroll must be made after the roll is made but before the result is declared. This is a switchable Aura.

Energizing Touch (Su)
Beginning at 19th level, Paladin may remove negative levels from a subject whenever she spends at least 15 points from her lay on hands pool per negative level the target is afflicted with (It is possible for only a portion of negative levels to be restored if the paladin does not spend enough to cure them all). This is in addition to hit points restored.


A Hero Never Falls (Ex)
At 20th level, the paladin's sheer strength of will drives her on when death would claim lesser men. Once per day when a paladin would be reduced to 0 or less hp or otherwise killed (such as by a death effect), she instead is reduced to 1 hp. If the paladin would be killed by having an ability score reduced to zero, that score is instead reduced to 1.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a Paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance (see below).
To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladin’s Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin Spells Per Day. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When Table: Paladin Spells Per Day indicates that the Paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level. The Paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.
A Paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the Paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily prayer.
Through 3rd level, a Paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is her Paladin level minus 3.

Code:
The Paladin: Spells per Day
Level    1st    2nd    3rd    4th
1st       -      -      -      -
2nd       -      -      -      -
3rd       -      -      -      -
4th       0      -      -      -
5th       1      -      -      -
6th       2      -      -      -
7th       2      0      -      -
8th       3      1      -      -
9th       3      2      -      -
10th      3      2      0      -
11th      4      3      1      -
12th      4      3      2      -
13th      4      3      2      0
14th      4      4      3      1
15th      5      4      3      2
16th      5      4      3      2
17th      5      4      4      3
18th      5      5      4      3
19th      5      5      4      3
20th      6      5      4      4

Paladin Spells

Spells

___

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise.

There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for!

Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it.

Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character.

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good or grossly violates her code loses all paladin spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character.

Sidebar: PrC Adaptation

Of course, it would seem that existing Paladin PrCs wouldn't fit well with the Rebalanced Paladin. One might ask "Hey, how does it make sense to get 2/encounter smites then get 1/day?" Fortunately for you, the Rebalanced Paladin was designed with easy adaptation in mind! For many prestige classes, adaptation is actually quite simple. Spellcasting doesn't need to be altered, as it continues to stay at "+1 per caster level." Fixing smite progressions is as simple as saying "You gain it per encounter, instead of per day." Those are the mainstays of the Rebalanced Paladin's power, and PrCs tend to give good benefits to make up for the loss of auras and Lay on Hands/specialization advancement. This is most of the work already for many paladin PrCs. In the case of abilities that are very similar to Smite Evil, smite feats should generally be allowed to apply (e.g. other Smite (alignment) feats). Indeed, even if the flavor is something like "Smite Good," it is a simple matter to reflavor them all saying "unholy" instead of "holy." If a class offers Lay on Hands advancement, just let it count as paladin levels for the sake of adding curative abilities, and replace the Lay on Hands text for the Prestige Class with the Lay on Hands description here.

For a few, however, you may want to make some adjustments. For example, you may want to say that a paladin PrC focused on leadership continues to advance auras, or you might decide that an aggressive PrC should allow the paladin to continue to advance his Charging Smite ability. These really are fairly minor adjustments that aren't strictly nescessary, and really are things you should be able to handle as a DM.

___


*All abilities listed with a * refer to a new (or revised) feat here.

New Feats

Feats


Sidebar: Behind the Scenes: Smite Feats

Smites feats are designed to give added options and versatility for the paladin during combat. Quite simply, more options makes combat more dynamic, interesting, and fun for the player. For the most part, Smite feats are weaker than a simple normal Smite Evil attack when fighting a single evil foe, and this is completely intentional. Smite feats are instead useful in other situations. All smite feats work on foes of any alignment unless otherwise noted, and as such help the paladin to contribute more in combats against things like constructs, oozes, or an angry tyrannosaurus. In the case of Conviction, for example, you get basically half the benefit of Smite Evil against any foe. Additionally, certain smite feats are more useful than a smite in unique situations, allowing a paladin to be more effective in more situations. For example, against multiple foes, Judgment can carve a swath through weaker enemies.

Smite feats are designed much like maneuvers in Tome of Battle. Most of them are related to a single, offensive attack with an instantaneous effect, or at least one that doesn't last for more than one round. The idea is basically that things like timed buffs are the domain of Divine feats. If you intend to design your own smite feats, keep a few things in mind:

1) Smite feats probably shouldn't have a duration that lasts very long, and should be related to some sort of action directly related to combat.
2) Smite feats should generally be weaker than a normal Smite Evil attack against a single evil foe.


New Feat Type: [Smite]
A smite feat allows you to channel the holy energy used to smite evil enemies iin new ways, expanding your options in combat.
All smite feats require the user to expend uses of their Smite Evil ability. Only one use of Smite Evil may be applied to any single attack. All Smite feats are considered Supernatural abilities, and cannot be used in any situation that such abilities would not function (such as in an antimagic field)

Celestial Lightning [Smite]
A fearsome bolt of lightning streaks from the sky and strikes your upraised weapon, arcing out in all directions and striking down surrounding foes.
Prerequisite: Holy Wrath (Electricity), Smite 3/encounter
Benefit: By expending a smite attempt as a full-round action, you raise your weapon above your head, and a lightning bolt strikes your weapon before arcing off in all directions to hit other targets. This is treated as a Chain Lightning Spell, with a caster level equal to your level in smiting classes. The weapon is considered the initial target (but takes no damage).
Note: Alternatively, the player may decide that the initial target is any other piece of equipment, or the character's body, as this is purely a flavor element.

Consecration [Smite]
You channel fearsome holy energy into your weapon and slams it into the earth, unleashing the stored energy into the ground and uplifting the earth around you in a powerful shockwave.
Prerequisite: Smite 4/encounter, Str 15
Benefit: As a standard action, by expending a use of your smites per encounter, you can unleash a powerful surge of holy energy into the ground. You immediately make a bull rush attempt against all enemies within a 30ft radius of you, for the purposes of this attack, you are considered one size category larger than normal, and add your Charisma to the check rather than strength. Enemies may move further than 5 feet as if you had bullrushed and moved with them. Additionally, all enemies affected take damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier.

Conviction [Smite]
Holy energy fills you with righteous conviction, driving you forward in battle.
Prerequisite: Smite 1/encounter, Hero's Courage class feature, Cha 15
Benefit: By expending a use of your Smite Evil ability, you gain a morale bonus on your attack roll equal to your Charisma bonus for a single attack.

Divine Cross [Smite]
Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting, Smite 1/encounter
Benefit: When you are wielding two weapons (or a double weapon) and use a smite attempt, you may instead make a smite attempt with both one primary weapon attack and one offhand attack, but only expend one use of your smites per encounter.

Holy Wrath [Smite]
You summon holy energy in order to smite your foes.
Prerequisite: Smite 2/encounter, Cha 13
Benefit: As a standard action, you may expend a smite Evil attempt in order to create a burst of holy energy that damages a single target within Close range (25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels). The energy deals damage equal to 1d6 per level of smiting class, and the target get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage. Half of the damage dealt is of either Fire, Electricity, or Cold damage (Chosen at the time the feat is taken), and the other half is pure divine energy, which is not subject to energy resistance.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the paladin's holy wrath may correspond to a different element. For example, a paladin could take the Holy Wrath (Electricity) and then take Holy Wrath (Fire).

Inspiration [Smite]
You inspire your allies by channeling a divine presence.
Prerequisite: Smite 2/encounter, Cha 15, switchable aura class feature
Benefit: You may expend a smite attempt as a swift action to activate this ability. For the next round, the Paladin's switchable aura's radius is tripled, and any bonuses are doubled. In the case of a benefit that may normally be used once per round, it may be used twice this round.

Judgment [Smite]
You channel pure holy energy into your weapon, and unleash a holy explosion with a swing, hurtling forward in a line through your enemies.
Prerequisite: Cha 15, Smite 3/encounter, Holy Wrath
Benefit: You may expend a use of your Smite Evil ability to use this ability as a standard action. You call forth a violent burst of holy energy, dealing 1d6 sacred damage per level of smiting class in a 5 foot wide line. The length of the line is equal to 25+5 feet/2 levels of smiting class. Targets get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage.

Reckoning [Smite]
You channel powerful holy energy into an overwhelmingly forceful blow that stuns your enemy.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Smite 2/encounter
Benefit: You may expend one use of your Smite Evil as a standard action in order to make a single melee attack. An enemy struck by this attack must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 level+Cha modifier) or be dazed for one round (In addition to taking normal damage from the attack).

Retribution [Smite]
You channel holy energy into your shield which is unleashed when you are attacked.
Prerequisite: Smite Evil 3/encounter, Shield Specialization
Benefit: As an immediate action when an opponent attempts to strike you, you may expend a use of your Smite Evil to add your Charisma bonus to your Shield Bonus to AC against this attack. If the opponent's attack misses, they are automatically knocked back 5 feet by the unleashed holy energy and take damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier. The movement provokes an attack of oppurtunity from anyone but you.

Vindication [Smite]
By channelling holy energy into your weapon, it can cross the nexus between planes and harm ethereal foes.
Prerequisite: Cha 13, Smite Evil 1/encounter
Benefit: You may expend a Smite Evil use to give all attacks for 1 round the benefit of the Ghost Touch weapon enhancement.


A paladin with the Vindication feat is an able ghost hunter
___

Holy Arrow [General]
Your presence and faith guide your arrows true. Your faith is not limited to the single-minded close combat of your peers.
Prerequisite: Smite Evil 1/encounter, Point Blank Shot
Benefit: You may use the Smite (alignment) ability with ranged weapons.

Extra Lay on Hands [General]
You are a focused healer, and are able to draw upon more holy power in order to heal yourself and your allies.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Lay on Hands class feature
Benefit: You may refresh your Lay on Hands pool one extra time per day.

Extra Smiting [General]
You can make more smite attacks.
Prerequisites: Smite ability, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain one extra smite per encounter.
Note: This replaces the Extra Smiting feat written in Complete Warrior, which does not apply to the Rebalanced Paladin

Last edited by OneWinged4ngel : 12-30-07 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 12-24-06, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Feedback for the Rebalanced Paladin

Feedback

First off, wonderful revision!
GaffeR

First of all, this is the best fix for any class I have seen on these forums.
-danisheraser

I am IMPRESSED! This is one of the best balanced classes I've ever seen and meshes seamlessly with it's flavour.
-Obsidian_Jaerc

I just want you guys to know that I am playing a paladin using you guys' version, and it's just awesome. Paladins are actually fun to play now!
-Xavorin

OWA, I declare you the lord of all badassness.
-Lord_Gareth

Consider this yoinked
-Thwyvylyn

I like this rebuild; it gives a maligned class a much-needed boost in power.
-CryoSilver

...you have fixed the original Paladin to what it should be... I would love to play this Paladin. Holy, healy, and the protector of the innocent.
-Aramek

This thread totally warrants the explanation point in its title.
-Optimator

Three cheers to you, gentlemen!!!!
-Carnivorous_Bean

The abilities themselves are great, and seem to give a great boost to a class that needed it.
-igotsmeakabob!!

Per-encounter abilities! Nice touch!!
-sigma999

Wow, great job.
-Antarx

Love it love it love it. A player of mine has seen it and also loves it.
-Evil DM Mk3

I really really like this.
-Riodrian

I find the rebalanced paladin quite perfect
-Aryxbez

A lot cooler then the standard one. The lvl 20 ability in particular is awesome(the image actually gave me goosebumps!)
-Einvaldurinn_mikli

I plan on using it in my campaign.
-HamHam

Love the class... Your paladin is balanced and lacks any apparent 'jumping out points' that the original paladin was riddled with.
-Banantalis_the_Green

I'm really excited to play this Paladin now.
-Optimator

For some reason I feel like playing a Paladin...
-Prince Indirian

Good job.
One for OneWinged4ngel
One for Seerow
-Otto the Bugbear

You've just brought the paladin back to his old, heroic glory. I cannot thank you enough, Angel.
-theotherdraxen

THIS IS HELLA GOOD!!!
-Marcotic

This paladin rocks!
-EyelessBlonde

I absolutely love it! I would run this over the normal Pally any day of the week.
-Repeekluos

This variant is fantastic and I'm going to use it in my campaign.
-Arturius1

I to your very excellent work.
-oXavorin

OWA, I applaud you. Paladins are HEROES once more.
-Lord_Gareth

For OneWinged4ngel and Seerow: a each. This is by far the best fix for any class ever, and I have finally found a class I enjoy playing. The paladin was one of the classes needing a fix, and you two have done a masterful job. This link will be going in my sig, for sure!
-Xavorin

WOW! This is everything I wanted in a Paladin that was just never there. This is totaly perfect in every way.
-MaceLeonheart

Fao OneWinged4ngel our fallen paladin (level 6) has just got his powers back. As a prezzie I gave him your reworked paladin. Convinced the DM to let him have it and he and I would just like to say thanks for your hard work. (He’s well chuffed! – his exact words were – I actually feel like a paladin now!)
-Grogmir

First, let me say that I am thoroughly impressed with your paladin remix. I don't say this often. It looks and feels exactly like it should, while simultaneously solving essentially any issue anyone could take with the class. Spectacular job, both of you! (If you want, you can quote me on that.)
-Tempest Stormwind

And much more...




___

This class has been a collaborative effort between Seerow and I, so he deserves credit as well.

Additionally, I'd like to thank everyone whose input and feedback went into the development of this class.

I encourage you all to be honest and straightforward in critiques. Be brutal, because I want this to be as damn near perfect as I can make it.

Last edited by OneWinged4ngel : 09-03-07 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 12-24-06, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

(Reserved for the Blackguard)
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Old 12-24-06, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

(Reserved)

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Old 12-24-06, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

3rd Party / Expanded Material:

Spellbreaker Specialization
Divine Consular Specialization
Devout Sagitar Specialization
Abu-Seifein Specialization
Inquisitorial Edict specialization
Draxen on Balance (FAQ)
Chimaera2000 on Balance (Paladin vs Crusader)
ObsidianJaerc on Playtesting
Chimaera2000's Variant Aggressive Specialization
Guardian Angel
Rebalanced Paladin in pdf form!
Rebalanced Paladin Epic Progression
Before you have a knee jerk reaction that the new LoH is too much, read this. NEW!
___

Stuff will be added here as I see it come up, or if you bring it to my attention and ask for it to be added. The things listed in this section are mostly supplemental material made for the Rebalanced Paladin designed by people other than Seerow and I, and are not "officially" endorsed. Questions about 3rd party material should be directed to the individual creators, not to me or Seerow, and we don't really do anything to enforce balance or whatever with them.

Last edited by OneWinged4ngel : 08-29-07 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 12-24-06, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Why a new thread?

Alright, basically... this needed a new thread. The first thread was getting onto 700 replies, and was getting overly large and unwieldy. On top of that, most of the thread is outdated (as most of the replies refer to OLDER versions of the Rebalanced Paladin), and the sheer size of it was sorta discouraging for new people to post and contribute new ideas and feedback. Additionally, it didn't have any reserved posts at the start... and I ran out of space to post stuff.

At this point, the Rebalanced Paladin is, for the most part, done. At this point, it looks like I'm just going to be adding more feats, updating the spell list with supplements, doing some minor tweaks, that sort of thing. I really need the extra space though, because I'm going to come out with things like some adjusted PrCs, and the Blackguard.

The old thread can be found here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729837

Yet again, for the most part only recent posts and this first page are relevant, and you don't really need to read the large number of other posts.

What's to come soon:
Some minor adjustments (Holy Wrath, Cover, Turn Undead, skills, and vigilance), possibly replacing Charging Smite, and adding the Blackguard.

-Signed,

Last edited by OneWinged4ngel : 08-29-07 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 12-24-06, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Why not have Vindication grant Ghost Touch and a form of bane to all incorporeal targets attacked for the encounter for 1 use of Smite Evil?
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Old 12-24-06, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur View Post
Hey Onewing here is a modified version of Vindication that includes a modified version of that enhancement I suggested.

Vindication [Smite]
By channelling holy energy into your weapon, it can cross the nexus between planes to harm incorpreal foes and even drag them into the material plane.
Prerequisite: Cha 13, Smite Evil 1/encounter
Benefit: You may expend a Smite Evil use to give all attacks for 1 round the benefit of the Ghost Touch weapon enhancement. Once during this round apon a successful attack against an incorpreal foe you may force that opponent to make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + Cha) or become corpreal for 1d4+1 rounds.

Note: If using this feat while incorpreal, a successful attack can be used to force a corpreal opponent incorpreal.
I was thinking of going with something like this... pulling the person onto your plain and keeping him there for a bit. Possibly even a sort of Dimensional Anchor effect (Which would certainly make it good)
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Old 12-24-06, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

I have a lot of quarrels with the concept of only-LG-paladin. But you've done quite an impressive job (a bit overpowered, but an impressive job nontheless). Just consider revising 'Vigilance' into 'Freedom of Movement' (Travel domain granted ability).

One thing. You forgot to describe 'Aura of Protection'.
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Old 12-24-06, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Are you still planning on adding the two weapon fighting Specialization?
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Old 12-24-06, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
I have a lot of quarrels with the concept of only-LG-paladin. But you've done quite an impressive job (a bit overpowered, but an impressive job nontheless). Just consider revising 'Vigilance' into 'Freedom of Movement' (Travel domain granted ability).
Could you please demonstrate how it is overpowered? I'm always willing to change anything that seems to be too powerful, and indeed have altered this a lot during the creation. No offense or anything, but I find that MANY claims of overpowered are... rather unsubstantiated. This is, of course, fully intended to be more powerful than core melee classes, but that's because those classes are, at least in the opinion of many, underpowered. My Pally's supposed to be more on the level with things like the Psychic Warrior or Tome of Battle Classes or the Rogue in usefulness.

Quote:
One thing. You forgot to describe 'Aura of Protection'.
Thank you for catching this! That's actually a typo, and should read "Aura of Devotion." Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Are you still planning on adding the two weapon fighting Specialization?
Probably. Seerow didn't care for the idea too much, but I think that enough people have been asking for it that I will be adding it anyways.
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Old 12-25-06, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Still only v0.77? Well, rock on.
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Old 12-26-06, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

This is very cool. I'd love to try it out in my next campaign, if you don't mind.

One thing I really like is how you've written the class. It's a lot more clear than the PHB is.
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Old 12-26-06, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

I still like this quite a bit. A few qualms remain.

Quote:
Half of the damage dealt is of either Fire, Electricity, or Ice damage (Chosen at the time the feat is taken), and the other half is pure divine energy, which is not subject to energy resistance.
Cold damage, I suspect.

Code:
Honestly, I still find all the spells to be too much, on top of all the other cool stuff they get.

Why the reduction in level of break enchantment and restoration?
Freedom of movement seems like a buff that others should cast on the paladin. Spell immunity also seems strange for the paladin to have.

Banishment doesn't seem like the paladins cup of tea. Why not simply kill the evil outsider? I am not pleased with flame strike, seeing it as the purview of clerics to call heavenly flames. Blatent evocation isn't needed for this melee character, especially given the Smite feats. The same goes for Heroes' Feast.

Heal is incredibly powerful for a character who already has Lay on Hands and access to all the other Cure (mass) spells. Overkill and potentially (though I hate this word) unbalanced.

I'm a bit iffy on Raise Dead. By the time paladin's get it, it would be useless to a party of that level. 

Righteous Might seems like overkill as well. It made up for the clerics 3/4 BAB in melee combat. When applied to the paladin it's just ungodly.

True Seeing also seems a little over the top. Why the need for self-sufficiency for these buff spells? The paladin has a party to back him up. Spell Resistance has the same issue but I can see more justification for that than the other.
A very good job overall. I am much enamored of A Hero Never Falls, and like several of the smite feats although a few rub me the wrong way. I am also pleased with the per encounter smites, I am quite sure that per encounter ability are the way of the future ala ToB.

Finally I am pleased to see another fan of JAE's art work.
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Old 12-26-06, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Great, the other thread was getting too fat anyway

Glad to here to what is to come

So The Blackguard will be a 1-20 class right?
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Old 12-26-06, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

If you're going to make Blackguard 1-20, consider adding a sidebar for trading in levels for a fallen paladin.

Also, perhaps a sidebar to explain using the other alignments. I'd suggest
Paladin: LG
Liberator: CG
Ravager: CE
Blackguard: LE

If not, that's ok. That may be a lot of extra work.
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Old 12-26-06, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto the Bugbear View Post
If you're going to make Blackguard 1-20, consider adding a sidebar for trading in levels for a fallen paladin.

Also, perhaps a sidebar to explain using the other alignments. I'd suggest
Paladin: LG
Liberator: CG
Ravager: CE
Blackguard: LE

If not, that's ok. That may be a lot of extra work.
Honestly, I'd probably make Blackguard "Any Evil" and for the Liberator all I'd really do is slightly adjust the spell list (Change any "lawful" spells to their "chaotic" equivelent)... but seeing as how I have next to no interest in the liberator I'll probably take forever getting around to it.

I would definitely make a note of trading in levels, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenris_Lathiin View Post
One thing I really like is how you've written the class. It's a lot more clear than the PHB is.
I have an unfair advantage: It's digital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenris_Lathiin View Post
This is very cool. I'd love to try it out in my next campaign, if you don't mind.
Of course I don't mind... it was written up here for everyone's benefit, after all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidianjaerc View Post
I still like this quite a bit. A few qualms remain.

Cold damage, I suspect.
Ah yes, I'll fix that. Good catch. I wonder why you used code for the rest of your comments, though...

Quote:
Honestly, I still find all the spells to be too much, on top of all the other cool stuff they get.
Basically, the spells Seerow and I have given the Paladin are an altogether appropriate boost in our minds, and fixes a sore problem with the paladin... being that 90% of their spell list is absolutely useless and completely irrelevant at the level they get it. For all some can say "Oooh, these spells are really nice!" it's a wholly different matter when you get to cast *2* at level *16* with a reduced caster and spell level (Which you still do). Only a few spells were actually *useful* for the paladin. Most of these were either on his first level spell list or came from supplements. Things like Righteous Fury seem to indicate that Wizards, too, felt that the paladin's spells needed an appropriate boost.

With the idea that Righteous Fury is a 3rd level spell for the paladin, the other spell choices are weighed a bit against that. Divine Power, for example, is probably a bit weaker in most cases than Righteous Fury, so it's on the 3rd level list.

Healing spells definitely needed a boost, because at the level the paladin got them they had absolutely no use and you could get more temporary hp out of Righteous Fury (along with your attack boosts) than you could heal. There was really no reason for the paladin to ever prepare a healing spell, and no one ever did. Now, they're still not one of his better spells, but at least they aren't totally useless.

Quote:
Why the reduction in level of break enchantment and restoration?
So that you get them at an appropriate level. Reduction of level is a common practice, and indeed the core paladin already gets a lot of it.

As a general rule, the spell equivelences are like...

Paladin level 1: Cleric level 1-2
Paladin level 2: Cleric level 2-3
Paladin level 3: Cleric level 3-4
Paladin level 4: Cleric level 4-5

The only area where this is an issue would be in the cases of Artificers and Archivists, who could exploit such things (and already can with core)... but that's easy to fix. I suggest using the relevant house rule in my sig to avoid the issue.

Quote:
Freedom of movement seems like a buff that others should cast on the paladin. Spell immunity also seems strange for the paladin to have.
While I kinda agree on Freedom of Movement, I wasn't the only one who had a say in this. *Shrug*. As for Spell Immunity, why on earth would it seem strange for the paladin to have a divine spell of protection?

Quote:
Banishment doesn't seem like the paladins cup of tea. Why not simply kill the evil outsider? I am not pleased with flame strike, seeing it as the purview of clerics to call heavenly flames. Blatent evocation isn't needed for this melee character, especially given the Smite feats. The same goes for Heroes' Feast.
Then don't prepare it for your character! You don't like the flavor, don't use it. Others may like the flavor... so they will use it. Same thing goes and always has for clerics and their seemingly unlimited spell selection. For example, some might enjoy the idea of an exorcist type of paladin (Which indeed is a flavor promoted in some settings). Then again, Banishment isn't particularly good for the Paladin, because his save DCs are going to suck. Same thing for Flame Strike: It'll never work for the paladin in a way at all comparable to the way it works for the Cleric.

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Heal is incredibly powerful for a character who already has Lay on Hands and access to all the other Cure (mass) spells. Overkill and potentially (though I hate this word) unbalanced.
At level 16? With very limited spells per day? And ultimately significantly less healing potential than the Cleric? How? I certainly don't get it.

Quote:
I'm a bit iffy on Raise Dead. By the time paladin's get it, it would be useless to a party of that level.
Yet you think he should only have Cure Serious Wounds by that time? :p

Alright, well, Raise Dead is useful for parties without Clerics or Druids.

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Righteous Might seems like overkill as well. It made up for the clerics 3/4 BAB in melee combat. When applied to the paladin it's just ungodly.
Clerics use Divine Power to... not have 3/4 BAB. And for the paladin, it's a much higher level ability than it is for the Cleric (they get it at what, level 9 vs level 14?). And you have to use your highest level spell slot, for which you'll have one or two spells a day. And you get a lower caster level, which affects what it does. And it's easier to dispel.

Quote:
True Seeing also seems a little over the top. Why the need for self-sufficiency for these buff spells? The paladin has a party to back him up. Spell Resistance has the same issue but I can see more justification for that than the other.
Again, True Seeing uses up one of those precious highest level spell slots, and you get it at a very late level.

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A very good job overall. I am much enamored of A Hero Never Falls, and like several of the smite feats although a few rub me the wrong way. I am also pleased with the per encounter smites, I am quite sure that per encounter ability are the way of the future ala ToB.
Thanks.

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Finally I am pleased to see another fan of JAE's art work.
JAE is quite awesome.

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By the way, if anyone's looking for an Epic progression for this, I'll say up front that I'm not going to do it, because I have minimal (read: None) experience with epic level play, and I don't intend to use Epic rules anytime soon (since all I ever hear is... well, not too positive things, and I find 20th level to be epic enough for my tastes).

Blackguard will be 1-20.

Also, I'm currently playtesting the Paladin in an Eberron campaign. Currently up to level 5.

Last edited by OneWinged4ngel : 12-26-06 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 12-27-06, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

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Probably. Seerow didn't care for the idea too much, but I think that enough people have been asking for it that I will be adding it anyways.
My DM is having me go TWF with this pally. However, I make up for it by gestalting with Swordsage.
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Also, perhaps a sidebar to explain using the other alignments. I'd suggest
Paladin: LG
Liberator: CG
Ravager: CE
Blackguard: LE
I use this for my campaign already. If you (OW4, that is) don't make the other 1-20 variants, no doubt someone else will come behind you and make them.

You've made the definitive fix for the Paladin. I'm just here to show support.
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Old 12-27-06, 05:02 AM
A_Redthorn A_Redthorn is offline
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

thought: Since admittedly, raise dead is, by the time it's available to the party, not something they'd quite want... (After all, it's a pain to have to try to get that level back, and it places you behind everyone else... well, I at least would rather my party find a cleric and pay him whatever they have to to get me back whole...)...

Why not make it the ultimate LOH expenditure? Give it a time limit on the order of hours or even minutes to work, rather than days, but no level loss, and it's not a spell.
It'd have to be pretty expensive- wipe out even a good paladin's entire LOH pool (until they get a chance to recharge- essentially killing one of their limited recharges), but this would give it more immediate utility, value, versatility, possibly silence some complaints, and as a special ability, is more in line (I think) with the paladin flavor (since he's all about the special abilities, as opposed to all about the spells).

(edit) Note: I'm picturing this barely bringing them back- to maybe 1d10 HP or something like that- otherwise it could be used as a cheap way to bring your HP-heavy barbar buddy back up to full mid-bossfight. Reviving Touch, perhaps? Either just a base cost that brings them to, say, a single hit die; or perhaps something along the lines of "You are now able to heal HP damage even beyond -10 by paying a base cost of X points of LOH + double amount of damage they last took" so someone right at -10 would take x + 20 LOH points just to bring to 0... while someone who's more of a -20HP paste than a corpse would take more...? Could bring them back fatigued, or who knows... whatever helps keep this from being abusable or overpowered, but doesn't levy any permanent drains or loss.

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Old 12-27-06, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Good. I wait for the twf spec.
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Old 12-27-06, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Next update I'll include some variants (Smite with Rolled Damage, two Lay on Hands variants), and the new version of Vindication. Maybe some other stuff, although in the aftermath of Christmas, I have a lot of other duties to attend to... (The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, of course)

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I use this for my campaign already. If you (OW4, that is) don't make the other 1-20 variants, no doubt someone else will come behind you and make them.

You've made the definitive fix for the Paladin. I'm just here to show support.
Don't forget it's Seerow's fix too

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Old 12-27-06, 07:42 PM
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I like this alot, any chance at a pdf for Dmgenie? I am terribly lazy and don't want to do this any other way
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Old 12-27-06, 07:47 PM
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Don't forget it's Seerow's fix too
Eh, Seerow's just the nerdy side-kick.
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Old 12-27-06, 07:58 PM
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I like this alot, any chance at a pdf for Dmgenie? I am terribly lazy and don't want to do this any other way
If (when) it gets completely ironed out, I can create a PDF if nobody else does (we've got the adobe PDF creator at work). While it's not likely that I can distribute it (laziness) or host it anywhere, I can email it to OW4 and he can distribute it or post it somewhere on the web.
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Old 12-27-06, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

Hearing your reasoning I've changed a few thoughts put not all.

No prob about the cold catch. The code tags were a typo. It should have been italics.

Anyway...

The reduction chart makes sense. Break enchantment however is a difference of level 9 for a Sor/Wiz and level 11 for a charismatic paladin. Not as large of a spread as usually justifies the addition to the spell list. *shrug*

FoM is still silly. Seerow, come defend it.

Righteous Might isn't an issue, it just seems useless for the paladin. The major benefit was bumping 3/4 BAB. Paladin don't need that and can't get much use out of the other bonuses it grants, and would be better off casting something else. So why offer it as a poor option?

Ah yes, the Exorcist of the Silver Flame and all that jazz. I guess Banishment is acceptable then.

I'm still not convinced of Flame Strike for a paladin spell. Protection, healing and buffs sure. Not fire from the sky.

Heal is just overkill. The paladin already has enough healing potential from LoH and cure spells. The paladin's main role isn't healer and though the re-balancing makes him more of one than before...Heal itself seems unnecessary.

Leave that nugget for the poor Cleric.

Raise Dead isn't useful even then. Instead the paladin will either use Revivification (if SC is allowed) or (more likely) the party will be paying NPCs to Resurrect/TR them. It comes to late (16th level I think) in the game to be useful option.

I understand the limitations on True Seeing, I just still don't see the reasoning for the inclusion of that buff spell. Party teamwork is a friend.

As for Epic. That's disappointing. If there is an outcry for a progression I'd be more than happy to whip one up with Seerow and OneWinged4ngel's permission. But not until both things happen.
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Old 12-27-06, 08:01 PM
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We could always get DragonChild to host it for us. He's always talking about how he wants new material for his site.

Edit: I got simuposted. *responds to Obsidian*
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FoM is still silly. Seerow, come defend it.
Sure. Explain to me why it's silly for the Paladin, and not the Cleric and I'll remove it. The Cleric is every bit the melee tank of doom the Paladin is, and they'd both use it in the same situations. I see no reason NOT to have it.

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Righteous Might isn't an issue, it just seems useless for the paladin. The major benefit was bumping 3/4 BAB. Paladin don't need that and can't get much use out of the other bonuses it grants, and would be better off casting something else. So why offer it as a poor option?
You're confusing Righteous Might with Divine Power. Righteous Might is a Size Enhancing spell, that alone makes it useful.

Divine Power is still useful though. +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and your CL in temp HP isn't bad. It also helps the multiclassed Paladin.
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I'm still not convinced of Flame Strike for a paladin spell. Protection, healing and buffs sure. Not fire from the sky.
This is another case of me saying "Well, why not?" It gives the Paladin a viable ranged attack option should he want it, and the idea of a high level Paladin calling down fire from the sky is fun.

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Heal is just overkill. The paladin already has enough healing potential from LoH and cure spells. The paladin's main role isn't healer and though the re-balancing makes him more of one than before...Heal itself seems unnecessary.
Why? He's getting it several levels after the Cleric, and has a lower caster level. The Cleric is in every way his superior at actually healing. But at high levels in battle healing NEEDS heal. Cure Serious Wounds simply doesn't cut it when next round your ally is going to eat 50-100 damage


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Leave that nugget for the poor Cleric.
and Druid? They get it too.


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As for Epic. That's disappointing. If there is an outcry for a progression I'd be more than happy to whip one up with Seerow and OneWinged4ngel's permission. But not until both things happen.
Go for it IMO. I'd attempt to do something with it, having a bit more experience than OWA, but epic feats aren't fun to mess with. Especially when you're competing with epic spellcasting.
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Old 12-27-06, 08:21 PM
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Righteous Might isn't an issue, it just seems useless for the paladin. The major benefit was bumping 3/4 BAB. Paladin don't need that and can't get much use out of the other bonuses it grants, and would be better off casting something else. So why offer it as a poor option?
Useless for the Paladin? Righteous Might is like... one of the better spells on his list now. Are you confusing it with Divine Power? Divine Power is still useful for the Paladin, since it gives a sizable strength bonus and some bonus hp.

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Heal is just overkill. The paladin already has enough healing potential from LoH and cure spells. The paladin's main role isn't healer and though the re-balancing makes him more of one than before...Heal itself seems unnecessary.

Leave that nugget for the poor Cleric.
Poor... cleric? Trust me, the cleric doesn't need to worry. He's still way more powerful than the paladin. Because he's the CLERIC.

Quote:
Raise Dead isn't useful even then. Instead the paladin will either use Revivification (if SC is allowed) or (more likely) the party will be paying NPCs to Resurrect/TR them. It comes to late (16th level I think) in the game to be useful option.
Not all settings have raise dead so easily accessible, but yes it's not a particularly grand thing to have. And yes, Revivify will be on the list.

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I understand the limitations on True Seeing, I just still don't see the reasoning for the inclusion of that buff spell. Party teamwork is a friend.
True Seeing, IMO, was appropriate for the flavor of some paladins. Revealing the truth and seeking out hidden evil and whatever. Not all paladins are the same flavor, of course, but it fits for a few I've played myself.

Just like with most of your spell objections... I've gotta ask: Why not?

Quote:
As for Epic. That's disappointing. If there is an outcry for a progression I'd be more than happy to whip one up with Seerow and OneWinged4ngel's permission. But not until both things happen.
Go for it... apparently Seerow's not interested in an epic progression either, so I really don't mind if anyone takes a shot at it.

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Old 12-27-06, 08:23 PM
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I totally beat you to that by like, 9 minutes.
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Old 12-27-06, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

I want to add a few things to Seerow's post as well, coming from my perspective...

Flame Strike: As a spell that "the other half results directly from divine power", it makes perfect sense to include it. This is one of those spells where the Paladin should NOT be firing it off at any old enemy. He should know before hand that he's using this divine damage on his evil enemies, instead of just some random castle guard. Of course, not all players will do this, but I tend to think that type of player has no business playing a character with paladin levels to begin with.

Heal: I also say "Why not?"

Consider this: The best "paladin" a character could make consisted of levels of cleric with prestige paladin and either hospitaller or fist of raziel. Why is that? Awesome casting with a very small reduction in the potency of paladin class levels. By making Heal a paladin spell at that level, he's just being granted one more option for really helping his party out.

Plus, the way this paladin works, a party certainly no longer "needs" a cleric or other dedicated healer. More options for the group always equals more fun. (One of the reasons I don't try to disuade the TWF option, even when I could never see myself using it with a paladin.)

Epic: Epic rules are seriously broken. I know that the term "broken" gets bandied about way too much on these boards, but in this one instance, attaching the word BROKEN to Epic is is completely accurate.

Epic rules should have been nothing more than the next 20 levels detailed using the same rule set already presented in core.
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Old 12-27-06, 10:01 PM
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First off I want to extend a hand and make sure this stays friendly. I like both of you and your work. I'm just trying to polish this overall.

Note that I am still not convinced that balance requires all their nifty new stuff plus spells. And I haven't heard a reasonable justification. There is no rule 0 is cyberspace.

'Just because the Cleric has it' isn't reason to add a spell that violates the theme of the paladin.

I indeed was confusing the two. Curses. Statement retracted.

I don't find "why not" to be a valid design philosophy. Flame Strike doesn't seem to mesh with the other paladin spells.

You keeping pointing out that the Cleric is superior spell-wise to the Paladin. One is a full casting class, one is not and as such shouldn't get all the perks.

In another line of argument, will 1-2 heal spells make the difference if LoH won't? The Paladin doesn't need to replace the divine caster or fill the healer role. He plays support to those two.

Quote:
Leave that nugget for the poor Cleric.
A joke. Hence the . CoD-zilla ahoy.

Quote:
Go for it IMO. I'd attempt to do something with it, having a bit more experience than OWA, but epic feats aren't fun to mess with. Especially when you're competing with epic spellcasting.
Cool. It's hard but such characters can be viable (note: not equal to spellcaster) in Epic.

Otto: Playing a paladin and trying to fulfill the roles of healer/buffer as well as tank seems like a tall order. I see this paladin as I saw the older one (only better made): a support character that can pick up the slack and do it's only special things.

Quote:
Not all settings have raise dead so easily accessible, but yes it's not a particularly grand thing to have. And yes, Revivify will be on the list.
Then they better grab a cleric. Because Raise Dead isn't effective at this level, when many things destroy the body. And who wants to lose a level?

As for True Seeing the "Why not" doesn't cut it. "Because such and such" is what I'm looking for instead. And if they were designed on the revealing the truth archetype, why don't they have sense invisibility and similar?
---

Otto: Regarding Epic. Would you clarify what specifically you are saying is broken? If you mean the entirety of epic rules, then you are wrong. I can demonstrate that simply by proving that one aspect of epic rules is not broken. For example, skill points continue to be the same for each class at each level in epic, since they are not considered broken as a whole pre-epic, they cannot be broken post epic.

I'm just asking you to to clarify what aspects of epic rules you are calling broken?
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The Rebalanced Paladin! (Thread 2)

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