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May 11, 2008

Axelrod & Wolfson on "Fox News Sunday"

FOX News Special Report With Brit Hume

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace, and this is "Fox News Sunday".

The Democrats have a nominee -- almost. With a handful of primaries remaining, how will Barack Obama close the deal? We'll ask his chief strategist, David Axelrod.

Then, Hillary Clinton vows to fight on. What's her plan to win the nomination? We'll find out from Howard Wolfson, top strategist to the Clinton campaign.

Also, once they settle their differences, what are the chances Obama and Clinton will end up as the Democratic ticket? We'll ask our Sunday regulars -- Brit Hume, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams.

And our Power Player of the Week, who's still asking for Ferris Bueller, all right now on "Fox News Sunday".

Hello again, and happy Mother's Day from Fox News in Washington. Well, with just six primaries left, Barack Obama is now in a commanding position for the Democratic nomination.

After his big win in North Carolina and slim loss in Indiana, he has once again opened up his lead over Clinton in delegates and now needs 161 more to secure the nomination.

And in the popular vote, Obama leads by more than 700,000, excluding the disputed primaries in Florida and Michigan.

Joining us now from Chicago, Obama's chief strategist, David Axelrod.

And, Mr. Axelrod, welcome for the first time to "Fox News Sunday".

AXELROD: Thanks, Chris. Good to be here.

WALLACE: Since the primaries Tuesday in North Carolina and Indiana, Obama has picked up 21 superdelegates, and Clinton has picked up a net gain of two, putting you and your campaign in the lead in superdelegates for the first time. Do you see those superdelegates starting to break sharply for Obama?

AXELROD: Well, I think you're going to continue to see that. I think that's a natural thing. We're coming to the end of the process. I think people saw the results on Tuesday as very meaningful.

And I think there's an eagerness on the part of the party leadership and activists across the country to get on with the general election campaign. Senator McCain's been out there campaigning as the nominee for some time, and I think people are eager to engage.

So I think you're going to see people making decisions at a rapid pace from this point on.

WALLACE: When you say at a rapid pace, should we expect a flood or a trickle over the next 10 days?

AXELROD: Well, I think a flood would be overstating it, because I think people -- I think people, out of respect for the process and the candidates -- some may withhold their judgment.

But I think we're going to -- we've been announcing several, you know, each day for the last few days. I think we're going to continue to -- we're going to continue to unfurl these endorsements on a regular basis here.

WALLACE: Now, you just said that you think that there's an eagerness in the party to get on with the general election campaign and to go up against McCain.

I know you're going to say that Hillary Clinton has a right to run as long as she wants, so please don't give me that answer. But do you think that Clinton continuing to take shots at Obama's policies and his political strength -- do you think that hurts the Democratic Party?

AXELROD: Well, first of all, let me say I don't -- I think that Senator Clinton cares about the Democratic Party. I think she cares about this country. I think she understands how much we need change in this country.

And I don't think she wants to impair our chances to achieve that, so, you know, I assume that she will do what she thinks is appropriate within those parameters.

On the whole, you know, I think this has been a good process for us and for the Democratic Party. You know, we have registered 3.5 million new Democratic voters.

The Obama campaign has organizations all over the country that are going to be ready to go. We just announced a 50-state registration drive for the fall. So in many ways, this has been a strengthening process.

And I've said before that what we don't want is at the end of the process to get into a situation where we impair our chances in the fall. And I trust the folks on the other side, Howard and folks on the other side, agree with that.

WALLACE: Senator Clinton got a lot of attention this week for some comments she made to USA Today. Let's listen to a tape of them.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CLINTON: Senator Obama's support among working -- hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again. And how the -- you know, whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

WALLACE: Mr. Axelrod, what do you think of a Democratic presidential candidate describing the race in such stark racial terms?

AXELROD: Well, I have to assume that Senator Clinton didn't say that the way she wanted to say it. I don't imagine that she chose the words as she would if you asked her that question again.

And the truth is that that isn't even the fact. In Indiana, we split voters who make $50,000 a year or less evenly. We did better among non- college-educated voters there. And the same is true in North Carolina than in some of the immediately -- immediate preceding states.

And we've done well across the country in various states with these voters.

WALLACE: Well, let me just ask you, though, Mr. Axelrod...

AXELROD: So the thesis itself is -- was wrong. The words weren't well chosen, but the thesis was wrong.

WALLACE: Why are the words not well chosen? Forgetting whether they're accurate or not, I mean, what do you find offensive about talking about white voters not going for Obama?

AXELROD: Well, I'm sure that Senator Clinton didn't mean to conflate hard-working Americans and white Americans in the same sentence. I know she doesn't believe that, and I don't think she meant to, and I'm sure Howard would say the same thing.

WALLACE: Well, let me ask you about that.

AXELROD: I think there are a lot of hard-working Americans of all backgrounds and races and ethnicities, and of course she believes that, too.

WALLACE: Let me ask you about that, because right after the Pennsylvania primary, you gave an interview to National Public Radio in which you said the white working class has gone to the Republican nominee for many elections.

Do you, in effect, think that -- first of all, do you believe that? You did say it right after Pennsylvania. And secondly, are you, in effect, conceding the white working class to John McCain in the general election?

AXELROD: Not at all. And I think that this is a year in which we have a great chance to do what we haven't done for many cycles and rally working class Americans again of all backgrounds, because we're living through a dismal time in our economy, and much of it has to do with the policies that we've seen.

So I don't think when you look at -- when you look at the polling, when you talk to people anecdotally, I don't think people are going to turn -- they're not interested in a repeat of the last four years in terms of policies. They understand that they've been disadvantaged by these policies.

And I'm very confident that we're going to run a strong campaign. The thing that I think Senator Obama will also do is compete strongly for independent voters.

And you saw it yesterday in the L.A. Times poll in which he was leading that he was even with Senator McCain among independent voters. I think that's going to be an important metric in terms of how this election turns out.

WALLACE: Let's talk about the end game here, how you ease Hillary Clinton gently out of the race.

On Friday, Senator Obama was asked about helping Clinton pay off the millions of dollars in debt her campaign has racked up, and he didn't rule it out. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Obviously, I'd want to have a broad range of discussion with Senator Clinton about how I could make her feel good about the process and have her on the team moving forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Question: Will the Obama campaign help Clinton pay off the millions of dollars in debt she's racked up?

AXELROD: You know, Chris, she hasn't asked, and we haven't offered. And I think that that discussion is way premature. And the truth is I think that Senator Clinton will have the capacity to retire her debt. I don't believe that Senator Clinton is looking for a deal. I don't think that's what this is about.

I think she's competed very hard over the course of several years, and I think she's playing it out as she sees -- as she sees fit. I don't think she's waiting for a cue or a signal from us or an offer of financial assistance. And I think that would demean her to suggest otherwise.

WALLACE: Let me ask you about the other side of it from the Obama campaign. I was talking to some Obama contributors, small ones in recent days, who said they'd be outraged to see any of their money going to help pay off the Clinton campaign.

One, they oppose the campaign. Two, it would go to Washington insiders like Mark Penn, who are the kind of people that they supported Obama to get out of Washington.

AXELROD: Well, of course, no one's talking -- I don't think even under any scenario no one said that we were going to transfer money from the Obama campaign to the Clinton campaign. We obviously need the resources we have. We have a great task ahead of us. And so that -- I think that that was -- there was a misunderstanding out there about that.

But, look. The fact is we've had a very competitive race for a long period of time. Feelings are raw. I think those feelings will heal over time, because ultimately Democrats are united around the concept that we need -- that we really need change in Washington.

And I think that, you know, it's hard to measure unity in the middle of a primary campaign. But I think we will have unity in the fall.

And I think that will include not just Democrats, but independents and some disaffected Republicans who understand that we're way off track in this country and we need to change direction.

WALLACE: But let's talk about healing and unity. There's obviously been a lot of talk in the last few days about a possible dream ticket of Obama and Clinton, but Robert Novak says in his weekend column that Michelle Obama wants no part of the Clintons. True or false?

AXELROD: That's false. There's been no discussion about vice presidential nominees and this whole scenario. Again, you know, we have not had any overtures. We have not made my overtures.

I know that this is the parlor game of choice in Washington. But we're just going out there and meeting voters, fighting for every delegate, fighting for every vote. That's what Senator Clinton is doing.

And you know, we'll focus on the vice presidential choice at the appropriate time.

WALLACE: Let's turn to a possible general election campaign against John McCain. Obama and John McCain got into a flap recently after McCain suggested that your man is favored by Hamas because a Hamas adviser spoke favorably about him. And here is how Obama responded. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: So for him to toss out comments like that I think is an example of him losing his bearings as he pursues this nomination.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: The McCain camp says that phrase, losing his bearings, was a pretty obvious way of bringing up McCain's age.

AXELROD: Boy, I think they're awfully sensitive. I didn't read it that way at all. But when we say losing his bearings, we're talking about the fact that he promised an elevated campaign, a campaign on issues and so on, and he's been engaged in a series of kind of gratuitous, ad hominem attacks lately. And I understand this, because he's running, you know, with a platform and a program that is demonstrably failing the country, and the country knows that. But one would hope that Senator McCain would live up to the commitment he made to run a more elevated campaign.

We were encouraged when he said that he wanted to have -- when his people suggested that perhaps there would be a series of town hall meetings, joint town hall meetings, around the country to talk about the issues in detail.

Let's do that. Let's do that kind of thing. I think the country's hungry for a serious campaign because these are serious times.

But let's not engage in the nonsense that he knows isn't the fact, that he knows demeans not just Senator Obama but himself in the process. That's what Senator Obama was referring to.

WALLACE: Mr. Axelrod, let me pick up on the last point you made, because it was something I was going to ask you.

The McCain campaign has suggested the idea that Obama and McCain would travel around the country, starting this summer -- joint town hall appearances, joint debates, perhaps without even a moderator, something like a Lincoln-Douglas style.

How seriously are you guys thinking about that?

AXELROD: Very seriously. We take that as a serious idea. And again, we believe that is the most significant election we've faced in a long time.

We're at war. Our economy is in turmoil. And we've got so many challenges that the people of this country deserve a serious discourse, and it shouldn't be limited necessarily to three kind of very regimented debates in the fall.

We ought to begin sooner, and we ought to have a free-flowing conversation about where we want to take this country. So you know, we're interested in that proposal and eager to sit down and talk about it.

WALLACE: So I just want to pursue this. You're talking about starting this summer before the conventions, correct?

AXELROD: Well, look. We haven't worked out the details. This was a concept that Senator McCain surfaced, and what I'm saying is we're interested.

And I don't think I can get into any details here, Chris, because we're just at the beginning of that conversation. But Senator Obama is very committed to having an open and direct dialogue about the future of this country with Senator McCain of the sort that America deserves right now and needs right now.

And so, you know, we're eager to sit down and talk about it. WALLACE: And listen, we'd like to invite you right now to do a debate on Fox, sir.

AXELROD: I was wondering how long the invitation would take in coming here, so...

WALLACE: Well, consider yourself invited.

AXELROD: ... you disappointed me. I thought it would be quicker than that. I thought it would be quicker than that.

WALLACE: Sorry to disappoint you. Mr. Axelrod, thank you. Thanks for coming in. Please come back.

AXELROD: OK. Good to be with you, Chris.

WALLACE: Up next, the Clinton campaign. We'll talk with key adviser Howard Wolfson about Clinton's controversial efforts to keep fighting for the nomination. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Joining us now from Hillary Clinton's campaign, top strategist Howard Wolfson.

And, Mr. Wolfson, welcome to "Fox News Sunday."

WOLFSON: Good to be here.

WALLACE: Why is Senator Clinton continuing to take shots at Obama? And does she have no worries that by continuing to attack him on policy, on his political standing, that she's doing damage to the likely nominee?

WOLFSON: Well, we're pointing out differences on issues, and that's appropriate. Senator Clinton is in this race because she believes she'll be the nominee. She believes she'd be the best nominee against John McCain. And she believes she'd be the best president.

WALLACE: And would you say that she's -- so she's in it to win it?

WOLFSON: Absolutely.

WALLACE: And how does she think she gets from here to there?

WOLFSON: Well, it starts in West Virginia on Tuesday. West Virginia is a key state in the context of an election against John McCain. Democrats won it in '92 and '96. We lost it in 2000 and 2004.

Senator Clinton has predicted that if she's the nominee, she'll beat John McCain in West Virginia. She'll move West Virginia back into the Democratic column. It starts on Tuesday in West Virginia.

WALLACE: As we discussed with David Axelrod, she endorsed in that USA Today interview a newspaper analysis that Obama's support among whites is, quote, "weakening." Does she believe that there are some whites out there who won't vote for Obama?

WOLFSON: No, I don't think that's the case at all. Look, if Senator Obama is our nominee, we will do everything we can. Senator Clinton will and our entire campaign will do everything we can to work for him and to get him elected president.

And I am sure that if Senator Clinton is the nominee, as we believe she will be, their campaign will do the same thing.

WALLACE: Was it unfortunate to talk in such stark racial terms? Some whites are -- support among whites for Obama is weakening?

WOLFSON: Well, as you say, she was referencing an analysis in the Associated Press. Both candidates in both...

WALLACE: But it's different when a candidate says it.

WOLFSON: I understand, but both candidates and both campaigns have at various points in this process pointed to the states that they've won and the coalitions and their supporters as the reason that they would be the best nominee against John McCain.

WALLACE: So she also continues to attack Obama on health care. Let's take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: How could anybody run to be the Democratic nominee for president and not have a universal health care plan? This is a huge difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: The bigger question here is she isn't just going through the motions. She's going to continue to fight aggressively for the nomination.

WOLFSON: Well, Senator Clinton is a fighter, and it's one of the things that her millions of supporters like about her. They know that she's in this. She's going to keep going until she secures the nomination or until the nomination is decided in a different direction.

A debate about health care, an important policy, is an important one that the country ought to be having and the Democratic Party ought to be having, and it's something, frankly, that Senator Clinton has been passionate about her whole life. She's been a champion about universal health care for a very long time.

WALLACE: But what about this argument that continuing the campaign at this point is weakening the likely nominee?

WOLFSON: Well, I'd make a counter argument, which is that this campaign has been great for the Democratic Party. We have brought in a million new voters into the party, and not just Senator Obama supporters, Senator Clinton supporters, too. Record turnout in state after state after state.

We believe that this campaign has been fabulous for the Democratic Party. We've energized this party. Both candidates have passionate supporters. And at the conclusion of the process, we're going to direct that passion behind one nominee against John McCain.

WALLACE: But, Mr. Wolfson, that may have been true up till now, but a growing number of party leaders are concerned about what Clinton is doing at this point.

Rahm Emanuel, one of the congressional Democratic leaders and a former political adviser to President Bill Clinton, said this, and let's put it up. "What Hillary does in the next month is important. If she spends her time contrasting with Senator McCain, drawing distinctions that help the Democratic Party, that's productive. If it's done another way, that's not productive."

By that reasoning, attacking Obama's health care plan and saying that he's weak with some white voters is not productive.

WOLFSON: Well, look. Pundits are not going to decide this race.

WALLACE: This isn't a pundit. This is...

WOLFSON: I understand.

WALLACE: This is Rahm Emanuel, one of the congressional leaders.

WOLFSON: With a lot of respect for Congressman Emanuel, he's been a good friend of both Clintons, the voters are going to decide this. And on Tuesday, voters in West Virginia, which is a key swing state, are going to get to weigh in.

We're going to have primaries upcoming in other states after that. They're going to have their say, too.

Senator Clinton is committed to her supporters and to the voters in the upcoming states to carry this through and secure the nomination.

WALLACE: So when Rahm Emanuel, who's as sharp a political operative as you are...

WOLFSON: He is. Sharper.

WALLACE: ... says it's not productive for her to continue to draw contrasts with Barack Obama...

WOLFSON: If Senator Obama can't defend his health care plan, that's a problem. He's going to have to defend it against John McCain. He's certainly capable or should be capable of defending it against Senator Clinton.

Look, if Barack Obama wants Hillary Clinton out of this race, beat her. Beat her in West Virginia. Beat her in Puerto Rico. Beat her in Kentucky.

You know, we have key states coming up. There is no reason Senator Obama shouldn't be able to compete against Senator Clinton in West Virginia. It is, as I've said, a key swing state.

Why can't Senator Obama beat Senator Clinton in West Virginia? Voters there have heard that he's the presumptive nominee. They've seen the great press he's gotten in the past couple of days. Let's let them decide. They have an opportunity. They want to end this on Tuesday, they're perfectly capable of it.

WALLACE: So the Obama camp should stop whining?

WOLFSON: I didn't say that. I said this is a contest between two very strong candidates. Senator Clinton has amassed an awful lot of votes and an awful lot of support and a lot of passionate supporters. So has Senator Obama, to his credit.

And at the conclusion of this, I have absolutely no doubt that a Democratic family -- and it is a family -- will be united behind one nominee. Until then, we're going to keep arguing and fighting for Senator Clinton's candidacy.

WALLACE: Senator Ted Kennedy, another Democratic Party leader, is also upset with Clinton, says that she should not be -- is not the right choice to be a running mate for Obama, and then he talked about the kind of person he thinks should be on the ticket. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: ... somebody that has -- is in tune with his appeal for the nobler aspirations of the American people. And I think if we had real leadership, as we do with Barack Obama, in the number two spot as well, it would be enormously helpful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Real leadership. Someone who is in tune with the nobler aspirations of the American people. Not Hillary Clinton.

WOLFSON: Well, Senator Kennedy is a great senator, very well admired. He supported Barack Obama. That's his right. I think all of this discussion about V.P. is premature.

We think Senator Clinton is going to be the nominee. If she's not, it'll be up to Senator Obama who he decides to choose. If it's Senator Clinton, it'll be up to her.

WALLACE: Does it bother you when some -- a lion of the Democratic Party like Ted Kennedy says he needs someone in tune with the nobler aspirations of the American people?

WOLFSON: Look, this is a primary, and both supporters have said things that I'm sure I or my comrades on the other side wouldn't like. That's the way politics goes.

WALLACE: How deep in debt is the Clinton campaign?

WOLFSON: We had about $10 million in debt as of the last filing.

WALLACE: And does that -- do you add to that the $11 million that Clinton has...

WOLFSON: No, separate.

WALLACE: So that's separate. So we're talking basically about $20 million in debt?

WOLFSON: Correct.

WALLACE: Would that be a good figure, $20 million?

WOLFSON: Yes.

WALLACE: And would Clinton welcome Senator Obama's help in retiring that debt?

WOLFSON: I think any talk of that is premature. Senator Clinton is going to be the nominee. When she's the nominee, we'll be in a position to retire our own debt.

WALLACE: And if they were to offer, if there were to be conversations about, "Gee, we could help you retire that $20 million," which is a substantial amount of money, would that affect in any way Clinton's determination to stay in this race?

WOLFSON: Absolutely not. First of all, there haven't been any conversations. I don't expect that there are going to be any conversations. This isn't about debt retirement or about the veep.

This is about winning campaigns in key upcoming states, making the case to superdelegates that based on Senator Clinton's track record, winning the big states -- Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Florida -- running ahead of John McCain now nationally in polls and in those key states, that we would be the best nominee.

WALLACE: You say you're not thinking about it. If she were -- and you have to at least, Mr. Wolfson, entertain that possibility that it is at least possible she's going to lose -- if she loses, would she be open, would she be interested in the vice presidency?

WOLFSON: I haven't discussed it with her. She hasn't discussed it with me. I've seen no evidence of her interest in it. And I think any talk of it is premature.

WALLACE: Now, Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of the campaign, went on the record the other day. He also says he hasn't talked with her, but he thinks that it would be a great idea for her to do it.

WOLFSON: Well, you know, Terry is certainly entitled to think that. There are a lot of people who do think it would be a strong idea. I think any talk of it is premature.

WALLACE: Why would it be a good idea? Why would it be a strong idea?

WOLFSON: Well, look. I think both of these candidates have amassed enormous support. Senator Clinton has passionate supporters. Senator Obama has passionate supporters. There are people who may think it's a good idea.

You know, let's get to that point when we get to it. Right now we're out there trying to win. WALLACE: Well, let's talk about that. What is Senator Clinton's view of when this race is over?

WOLFSON: When one candidate gets to 2,209, which is the number of delegates needed with Florida and Michigan. We believe Florida and Michigan ought to be counted. Two and a half million people voted in those states, record turnout.

We want those votes counted in the way that they were cast on primary day.

WALLACE: So if he gets to 2,025, which is the majority excluding Florida and Michigan, she doesn't get out of the race?

WOLFSON: Well, I think Florida and Michigan will have a sense of what the DNC is going to do on May 31st. I certainly don't envision Senator Obama getting to 2,025 before then. And I think after then, we'll be at 2,209.

WALLACE: If you're not, if they do not include those states at that point, would she continue to fight through the Rules Committee, through the Credentials Committee, to try to change that and get Florida and Michigan counted?

WOLFSON: A Democratic convention that only includes the voices of 48 states is not a good convention against John McCain.

We have got to have Florida and Michigan resolved. We've got to have those delegations seated. We've got to have those voters honored. And that's what Senator Clinton is committed to doing.

WALLACE: So you're saying if he gets to 2,025 and at the end of May - - this gets a little bit into the weeds -- at the end of May, the Democratic Rules Committee does not vote to include Michigan and Florida, she stays in the race?

WOLFSON: My hope is that they will. My expectation is that they will. And we are committed to seating Florida and Michigan.

WALLACE: Even if it means going to the convention?

WOLFSON: We are committed to seating them.

WALLACE: And the idea -- some people have suggested, "Well, after Tuesday, she wins big victory, 2-1, in West Virginia, and that's her opportunity to go out on a high note."

WOLFSON: Absolutely not. You know, how does the Obama campaign explain the fact that they are not campaigning in West Virginia, that they've written West Virginia off? It's a key swing state.

We as a party have to be able to compete in places like West Virginia and Kentucky. Senator Clinton is committed to doing that. And it's, I think, one of the reasons why, despite all the great press Senator Obama has had, that many superdelegates are still waiting and seeing before committing to one candidate or the other. They are concerned that Senator Obama isn't competing in West Virginia. They are concerned that he's not competing in Kentucky. They are concerned that he keeps losing the big swing states -- Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio.

They are concerned that Senator Clinton is running ahead of Senator Obama versus John McCain.

WALLACE: Mr. Wolfson, one final question. When you hear all the pundits -- and there have been some out there who have said, "It's over." You have Time Magazine...

WOLFSON: Just a few.

WALLACE: Yes. Not us. And a few -- you had the Time Magazine cover, "And the winner is." It had an asterisk, but a big smiling picture of Obama. Does it tick you off?

WOLFSON: No. Senator Clinton is a person of enormous strength, and her supporters like that about her. They admire her. They admire the fact that she is sticking through this. There is no reason for her not to continue this process.

We believe we're going to be the nominee. That's what we're fighting for.

WALLACE: Mr. Wolfson, thank you.

WOLFSON: Thank you.

WALLACE: Thanks for joining us.

WOLFSON: Pleasure to be here.

WALLACE: Sounds like we'll be asking you back again.

WOLFSON: Look forward to it.

WALLACE: Thank you.

Coming up, as Obama moves closer to the nomination, some Democrats are pushing Clinton, despite what Mr. Wolfson says, for vice president. Would that be a dream team or a political nightmare? We'll get answers from our Sunday gang when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Particularly when you've had a strong opponent, you want to make sure that you're putting that opponent in a strong position so that they can work to win an election in November.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Barack Obama laying out his hopes for a soft landing after his long battle with Hillary Clinton.

And it's time for our Sunday regulars -- Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News, and Fox News contributors Mara Liasson of National Public Radio, Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard, and Juan Williams, also from National Public Radio.

Well, you know, it was fascinating listening to Axelrod and Wolfson, because Axelrod was trying to be very diplomatic, but clearly they can't get Hillary Clinton out of this race soon enough. And if you believe Wolfson, she ain't leaving.

Does she, Brit, have a realistic shot at this nomination? And if not, why is she staying in it?

HUME: Well, the superdelegates were the hope. They're starting to break, and they're not breaking for her. He has now, I guess, officially overtaken her in superdelegates where she enjoyed a comfortable lead not so very long ago.

The trend is not likely to change, and West Virginia and Kentucky I don't think have the firepower to change it. And so then you get to the question of well, you know, what's the campaign about? Why is she staying in anyway?

Well, you heard Howard Wolfson say on this program that, you know, there are differences on issues. Well, there really aren't any important differences on issues.

You know, you think back to 1976, Gerald Ford versus Ronald Reagan. That campaign went all the way into the convention, where Ford pulled together enough of what would now be called superdelegates to win, and Reagan came to the convention, his delegates intact, and the convention went crazy over him. There were real differences on issues between Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford. There are really no major differences between these two candidates on issues. She is hanging in, it seems to me, which she has every right to do, just on the sheer desperate hope that lightning will strike and something will happen. It is not likely.

LIASSON: I think, actually, at least through May 20th, it's fine that she's still in there. He does not -- if she dropped out now and still won West Virginia and Kentucky, which she would be likely to do, even after dropping out, that would not be so great for Barack Obama.

I think that he just has to kind of suffer through these next couple weeks. As long as she doesn't...

WALLACE: But why do you think she's doing it?

LIASSON: I think she wants to end -- first of all, it's easier to just continue what you're doing while you're thinking about how you want to get out and kind of planning the graceful exit. It's almost impossible to stop on a dime at this point. Plus, she's a fighter.

HUME: Well, when you're $20 million in debt, that might help you to want to stop.

LIASSON: You know what? The debt is going to be the least of her problems, I think, at the end. I think if she doesn't conduct herself in a way that destroys her own future in the party, if she doesn't continue giving those interviews like to USA Today about white voters -- I think she wants to finish out on a high point.

Certainly, she shouldn't get out till she wins West Virginia and Kentucky. Maybe it will be June 3rd or afterwards. This race is almost over. The worst thing for Obama is that it costs him precious time where he wants to be planning a general election campaign and devoting all his energies to John McCain.

WALLACE: Bill, do you see any chance that Obama will be denied the nomination? And what do you think the Clintons are up to?

KRISTOL: Oh, Obama is going to win, and Hillary Clinton is going to play it out. You know, the Washington Nationals are probably not going to win the National League East, but they're going to play out the season.

And at this point, you might as well play out the season. She's going to win half the remaining primaries. She's going to run a positive campaign. There are no negative ads...

WALLACE: She's not been entirely positive.

KRISTOL: Pretty positive. No negative ads at all against Obama, some differences on issues, no personal attacks.

I think she will get out on June -- the last primary is June 3rd. She will get out on June 4th. And she has now -- as Mara said, she has plenty of time to plan that. They can do a nice victory tour with Obama on Thursday, June 5th. And it will end up working out actually pretty well, I think, for Obama.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think the reason that she stays in it is, you know, despite what people might think, she probably does believe she'd be the better president. And not only that, she believes she'd be the better candidate.

And the polls don't exactly argue with her in terms of head-to- head match-ups versus McCain. So I think she feels as if the superdelegates may have reason to reconsider at some point.

Now, what it would take -- Mara said lightning striking, whatever -- you never know. But I think that on the big issues -- and what she said about white voters by the way, you know, I think some people around here think it's OK to be virtuous and ignore race when, in fact, race is a very real issue, and that he has had a declining rate of success with white voters, not necessarily over race in specific, but, you know, over things like Reverend Wright and judgments to be made about him as an elitist and the like.

So these are real issues, because you -- from the Democratic Party's point of view, you want to make sure you do well in November. That's what this has all been about, winning the White House. And so if she believes she'll be the stronger nominee, she's got to make that case to the superdelegates.

WALLACE: All right. Let's get to the next question.

Assuming that Obama is the nominee, Brit, what's the likelihood of an Obama-Clinton ticket? How likely? How strong? Would that be the right ticket for the Democrats?

HUME: Well, I think Obama needs for the general election to get back to the idea that he's someone really new and what he brings is new.

His campaign has been a little short on specifics on that, and so here comes the first big choice you make as the nominee.

If he chooses her, he is, at least outwardly, to all appearances, reaching back into the past. So for that reason alone, I think it would be a choice that would be -- it might unite the party and it might unite the convention, but I think it would be seen as, you know, more of the same old, same old, and would not help him in the general election, particularly.

And Hillary Clinton -- you know, there are a lot of people who are -- independents and conservatives who don't like Barack Obama on the issues, although they might like him personally. There are a whole lot of people who don't like Hillary Clinton on the issues and don't like her at all and think even less of her husband.

So I think that, you know, with all that baggage, I think it's -- he might be forced to do it by some circumstance, but I don't think he wants to.

WALLACE: Mara, you don't think that the Obama camp would ever consider Hillary Clinton?

LIASSON: No, I don't. I think the chances of her being on the ticket are very, very, very small.

WALLACE: Why?

LIASSON: I think she will not be -- party because of what Brit said. Her pick is the opposite of his message. His message is about a new kind of politics. He's been running against her based on that message.

The other thing -- in terms of unifying the party, if the Democratic Party is so disunified that only putting them together on the ticket would solve that, they are in a lot more trouble than anybody has thought up until now. And I don't think they really are.

I also think that it's this -- a false assumption to assume that she somehow miraculously brings all the voters with her who voted for her. She's not the tribune of white working-class Americans. They're voting for her because they're voting against him, you know.

And I think that she's probably not going to be the nominee. He needs somebody who can shore up all of his weaknesses.

WALLACE: Let me make a counter argument, or at least quote someone close to the Clintons who said to me this week -- hadn't talked to her, but just said, "I think that she would pick it in a New York minute," and then suggested, which was quite interesting to me, that in 2004, women -- we think of it as being 50-50.

In fact, women made up 54 percent of the electorate. And he said with her on the ticket, women will be 56 percent of the electorate, and that's enough to put the Democrats over the top.

KRISTOL: Look, I think Hillary Clinton is a reasonable pick. It's the Reagan-Bush model. They're the two finalists. She's gotten 18 million more votes than anyone else who's likely to be picked -- for president of the United States than without else who's likely to be picked. That's not nothing, you know. A lot of people have voted for her. They'd probably be happy to see her on the ticket.

I think Bill Clinton -- I've thought about this. I sort of was intrigued by an Obama-Clinton ticket about a week ago. I think Bill Clinton is probably the showstopper there, though.

It's just too complicated to have -- she can't even control him when she's running for president. How could Obama control him if she's on the ticket as the V.P. nominee? And I think it's just too -- the addition of him to her and all that baggage is too much.

So I don't think it will be Hillary Clinton, but I think he has to think hard about reaching out to -- about getting someone who will appeal to those Clinton Democrats. An awful lot of people have voted for her.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Nobody's ever voted for as many -- she's won more votes than anybody else, except Barack Obama. And so I think it would unify the party. I think these are two candidates that are very popular with Democrats across the board.

And the downside is what Bill said, that Bill Clinton would be in the mix, and then Barack Obama would have to be watching his back all the time, because you don't know what these people are up to, and they're trying to overshadow you. That would be a problem.

But when you start to think about the alternatives -- and the alternatives are people like, you know, Jim Webb of Virginia, or you could say, you know, that's strength in terms of defense, or Sam Nunn, someone who's older and has some gravity to add to -- Barack Obama is a young guy who's going to be portrayed by the McCain camp as inexperienced -- or even a woman like Kathleen Sebelius, the governor of Kansas, you start to think, "Well, you know, who are these people," versus Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Clinton is a known quantity and brings some star power.

WALLACE: That has pluses and minuses.

WILLIAMS: Well, but the pluses among Democrats -- and specifically among women and specifically among suburban white women who...

WALLACE: All right.

WILLIAMS: ... are to be determinative.

WALLACE: Let me quickly ask Bill and Mara, any flyers out there, anybody that you think if it weren't going to be Clinton, since you're both negative on it, who do you think he should pick or might pick?

LIASSON: I think he needs someone with foreign policy experience. By definition, they're going to be older than him. And I think, you know, if you want to do the kind of easy route, Ted Strickland probably will get you Ohio...

WALLACE: Governor of Ohio.

LIASSON: ... which is a state you really, really need. He doesn't have foreign policy experience. You know, Ed Rendell. I don't think that if the...

WALLACE: Governor of Pennsylvania.

LIASSON: ... if they need him to get Pennsylvania, that's not such a great thing for the Democrats.

Sam Nunn I think would be great, but he's a little old.

WALLACE: And I'll give you one name.

KRISTOL: Dick Gephardt.

WALLACE: Dick Gephardt, former congressman, Missouri. KRISTOL: Former Democratic leader in the Congress, very attractive to working-class Democrats.

WILLIAMS: Very nice, but old news.

WALLACE: Well, you won't be invited to Mother's Day at the Gephardt house, though.

(LAUGHTER)

All right, panel. We need to take a break here.

But coming up, we'll turn to the McCain campaign. What he's doing while the Democrats slug it out? We'll get some answers when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: On this day in 1961, President Kennedy approved sending special forces to Vietnam. These military advisers trained South Vietnamese soldiers to fight the Vietcong.

Stay tuned for more from our panel and our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTA MCCAIN: I think he'll make a wonderful president. Well, he's not perfect. Did I say that?

MCCAIN: He doesn't pay enough attention to his mother, I think.

ROBERTA MCCAIN: No, I'm happy. I have no complaints.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was a clip of Senator McCain and his 96-year-old mom Roberta in a campaign commercial celebrating Mother's Day.

And we're back now with Brit, Mara, Bill and Juan.

Well, the ad was, I thought, not only cute but also a kind of effective way to defuse the age issue by showing just how good John McCain's genes are.

Brit, first of all, going back to what Obama said about McCain losing his bearings, do you think he really was making a comment about age?

HUME: Absolutely not. And even if he were making a comment about McCain's age, it's a perfectly reasonable issue anyway.

We have had this long campaign now. It's been great. But we have these candidates, McCain leading the way, who want to rule all kinds of normal campaign material off the table.

I mean, you know, things about Barack Obama that McCain may need to talk about before all is said and done McCain is saying, "No, we're not going there." WALLACE: Like Jeremiah Wright. HUME: Exactly. And now, you know, if there were a reference to his age, fine. He's an old man. A lot of people are worried about voting for him because he's an old man. I mean, I think his mother -- does she look great or what? I mean, I think it's a smart ad to do.

But are we going to be so squeamish in this campaign that we can't talk about a lot of things that people are worried about and interested in? I hope not.

LIASSON: Yes. Look, I think it's silly. I mean, every time Barack Obama gives a speech, he thanks John McCain for his half century of service to America. I mean, you know, translation, old, old, very old.

But look. McCain has made it really clear that he's going to run against Obama on inexperience and lack of judgment. Those are legitimate, too.

I think that, you know, worse than the -- more important than the age issue, McCain has a big job to do in the remaining time he's got before Obama gets a huge bump out of becoming the nominee.

And I think he's made a god start, but -- all the pieces are out there, but he hasn't put it together into a coherent whole yet. You know, he's given the speech about judges, and he's going to do global warming this week, and he's talked about Hurricane Katrina and health care, and he's been on the bio-tour.

But I don't think it's been knitted together into this kind of narrative-plus message that he really needs.

WALLACE: Let me pick up on that with you, Bill. I mean, it really is quite astonishing. McCain has had three months now, basically since just after Super Tuesday -- the first Super Tuesday -- since he effectively wrapped up this nomination.

How effectively do you think he has used that time?

KRISTOL: You know, moderately effectively. I mean, it's tough, because the focus has been on Obama and Clinton, and he could have given -- he did give a very good foreign policy speech, and it got one day of coverage and sort of went away.

So I mean, if you look at the polls compared to three months ago, Obama has probably gained a point or two on McCain, but basically it's an even -- it was an even race then and it is an even race now.

WALLACE: What would you have liked to have seen him do? Mara talks about building a narrative. What does it mean in terms of getting a coherent message out and sort of branding yourself and what you would mean as the next president?

KRISTOL: What would you do about the major issues, and I think especially on the -- I'd say he's -- my criticism would be he loves campaigning, so he campaigns. He's still campaigning all the time. He's giving two, three, four speeches a week. He's all over the place.

I would calm down and spend much more time studying up on the economy especially, and come out with a really big conservative reformist agenda which could include the economy, institutional reform.

He could say, "Look, I was a great proponent of the surge. What was the surge about? It was Dave Petraeus changing the way the U.S. military works, and it worked. It succeeded. Why can't we do this for the rest of the U.S. government? Lots of the U.S. government is broken. We need, in effect, a surge, a reformist surge, for the whole U.S. government."

And he could develop a kind of theme that combined conservatism and reform, I think, in a somewhat more coherent way than he has so far.

WILLIAMS: Vote for Kristol. I like it. I like that.

KRISTOL: That would be a good thing. That would really help McCain.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: You know, I think what he's been doing is running to the right. I mean, he's been making it clear he wants to extend the Bush tax cuts. He wants to nominate judges who are, you know, pro- life judges.

He's been making it clear that when it comes to health care he wants to deregulate it, more individual choice. That's quite different than the Democrats.

But he's running to the right because he's having trouble raising money. He has much less -- I think it's like four times less money on hand than Obama.

And so what you're going to see is pretty soon ads get on the air that talk about John McCain as someone who wants to extend the war in Iraq, someone who is out of touch with the economic necessities of the day, who thinks the economy is just going well, Wall Street's doing well, and doesn't understand the pressures on people.

WALLACE: But you've also seen him on that tour of the forgotten places when he went to Selma, Alabama...

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

WALLACE: ... and Youngstown, trying to say, "I am a different kind of Republican," as Bill mentioned. He's going to be talking all week about global warming. That's not running to the right.

WILLIAMS: No, he's going -- he's also going to be talking this week to the NRA. But he had to go to Selma and those places, you know, forgotten places as he puts it, to inoculate himself against running against a black man potentially now in the fall. And I think he's done that, but they're going to raise race issues. They're going to -- when you talk about the inexperience issue, the elitism issue, he's too liberal, he's got this very liberal record, that's going to be his attack on Barack Obama.

WALLACE: I want to just bring up one more thing. We've got less than two minutes left, Brit.

I mean, we had this fascinating discussion over the weekend about the idea that they're going to -- instead of those three rigid Presidential Commission debates, that these guys might travel around the country, hold joint town hall meetings, multiple debates.

One, do you believe it will happen? And two, do you think it's a good idea?

HUME: I think it's a terrible idea.

WALLACE: Really?

HUME: Well, because what you're basically -- all your time is going to be in debate preparation, right? There'll be -- you know, unless they - - you know, if they could keep -- they'd have to keep to a debate schedule that would make the primary season so far look relaxed.

And I mean, I just think that, you know, each campaign is going to need to devise a strategy, and if you're going to have to stop every week to have some highly civilized debate, you know, I just don't think it's...

WILLIAMS: Why do you think they'd be civilized? Why don't they just have an argument? Lincoln and Douglas. I'm all for it. I think they should go at it. And also, you would see who's...

WALLACE: Do you know what happened in Lincoln-Douglas? I think one gave a speech for an hour and a half, and one...

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

WALLACE: ... would give...

WILLIAMS: Hey, that's a problem for the networks. But in terms of the voters, the voters would be delighted, you know.

WALLACE: Well, OK.

LIASSON: Look, you know, you might see some of those, but certainly not every week.

You know, the other problem for John McCain is he is doing -- trying to do two things at once. He has to shore up his base and give these speeches about judges, and he also has to show that he's a different kind of Republican and a reform Republican. And he's doing two things at once.

After the convention, I would assume, you're going to see him really stake out the center and focus on the reform.

WALLACE: All right. We're out of time. Thank you. To be continued. See you next Sunday.

Up next, our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: In a town with so many people on the career fast track, Washington doesn't have a lot of folks you'd call real characters. But then there's our Power Player of the Week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN STEIN: I am a commentator, an actor, an economist, a lawyer, a teacher and a speaker.

WALLACE: Ben Stein is a jack-of-all-trades and a master of most. In a world of specialization, he is a charming exception.

Why so many different career choices?

STEIN: I feel as if I'm going crazy if I'm just sitting at home doing nothing. And I like -- I just really love being in motion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEIN: Bueller. Bueller?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Stein is best known as the stultifying economics teacher in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEIN: ... to alleviate the effects of the -- anyone? Anyone? The Great Depression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEIN: We only did one take. I just did it all out of my head, ad libbing. One take. The extras and the cast and crew applauded. Now, I've never seen that before on a set.

WALLACE: That success got Stein more jobs in movies and television -- commercials and as a game show host. But in fact, Stein is a real economist.

Are we in a recession?

STEIN: No. I'll tell you unequivocally we're not in a recession.

WALLACE: And he has a book out telling you how you can supercharge your stock portfolio. What's your advice to investors right now?

STEIN: When times get tough, keep on buying. That's when you make money, is when other people are screaming bloody murder and saying things are terrible. That's when you make money.

WALLACE: And then there's Stein's new documentary, "Expelled," in which he lays out the case for intelligent design and tells of teachers and scientists who have been fired for straying from Darwin's theory of evolution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNKNOWN): I was viewed as an intellectual terrorist.

STEIN: Terrorist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Do you believe that evolution and intelligent design should be given equal weight in the science classroom?

STEIN: Well, I don't that you should teach them on any kind of proportional basis that I could figure out. But I think that if a student or a teachers says Darwinism will take us so far and no farther, he should not be punished.

WALLACE: But perhaps as impressive as any of his careers is the sum total of his work.

Do you think that if you'd focused on just one thing you might have amounted to something?

STEIN: Oh, yeah. I think I would have amounted to probably a grade 14 civil servant at the Federal Trade Commission.

WALLACE: And then he gave a perfect Ben Stein answer to explain all the choices he's made.

STEIN: I have an insane love of dogs. I just love dogs. And I did not like having to go off to the office every day and leave my dog at home. I wanted a job where I could be with my dog all day, and that was Hollywood.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: Explains it all. And all these years later, Ben Stein has two dogs, both German short-haired pointers, named Bridget and Cleo.

Now, this programming note. Be sure to watch Fox News Channel Tuesday night for coverage of the West Virginia primary starting at 7:00 p.m. Eastern right after Brit and "Special Report."

And that's it for today. To all the moms out there, including mine, happy Mother's Day. And we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday".

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