Telegraph RSS feeds
Thursday 19 June 2008
telegraph.co.uk Winner, Best Consumer Online Publisher, AOP Awards

Surfer dude stuns physicists with theory of everything

By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
Last Updated: 6:01pm BST 14/11/2007
Page 1 of 2

 Read comments

An impoverished surfer has drawn up a new theory of the universe, seen by some as the Holy Grail of physics, which has received rave reviews from scientists.

  • Garrett Lisi: This surfer is no Einstein...
  • Test tube universe hints at unifying theory
  • Surfer Dude's Theory of Everything - The Movie
  • Garrett Lisi, 39, has a doctorate but no university affiliation and spends most of the year surfing in Hawaii, where he has also been a hiking guide and bridge builder (when he slept in a jungle yurt).

    The E8 pattern (click to enlarge), Garrett Lisi surfing (middle) and out of the water (right)

    In winter, he heads to the mountains near Lake Tahoe, Nevada, where he snowboards. "Being poor sucks," Lisi says. "It's hard to figure out the secrets of the universe when you're trying to figure out where you and your girlfriend are going to sleep next month."

    Despite this unusual career path, his proposal is remarkable because, by the arcane standards of particle physics, it does not require highly complex mathematics.

    Even better, it does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space, when some rival theories need ten or even more spatial dimensions and other bizarre concepts. And it may even be possible to test his theory, which predicts a host of new particles, perhaps even using the new Large Hadron Collider atom smasher that will go into action near Geneva next year.

    Although the work of 39 year old Garrett Lisi still has a way to go to convince the establishment, let alone match the achievements of Albert Einstein, the two do have one thing in common: Einstein also began his great adventure in theoretical physics while outside the mainstream scientific establishment, working as a patent officer, though failed to achieve the Holy Grail, an overarching explanation to unite all the particles and forces of the cosmos.


    Now Lisi, currently in Nevada, has come up with a proposal to do this. Lee Smolin at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, describes Lisi's work as "fabulous". "It is one of the most compelling unification models I've seen in many, many years," he says.

    "Although he cultivates a bit of a surfer-guy image its clear he has put enormous effort and time into working the complexities of this structure out over several years," Prof Smolin tells The Telegraph.

    "Some incredibly beautiful stuff falls out of Lisi's theory," adds David Ritz Finkelstein at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta. "This must be more than coincidence and he really is touching on something profound."

  • Is this the fabric of the universe?
  • Are we missing a dimension of time?
  • Quantum genesis: How life was born on Earth
  • The new theory reported today in New Scientist has been laid out in an online paper entitled "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" by Lisi, who completed his doctorate in theoretical physics in 1999 at the University of California, San Diego.

    He has high hopes that his new theory could provide what he says is a "radical new explanation" for the three decade old Standard Model, which weaves together three of the four fundamental forces of nature: the electromagnetic force; the strong force, which binds quarks together in atomic nuclei; and the weak force, which controls radioactive decay.

    The reason for the excitement is that Lisi's model also takes account of gravity, a force that has only successfully been included by a rival and highly fashionable idea called string theory, one that proposes particles are made up of minute strings, which is highly complex and elegant but has lacked predictions by which to do experiments to see if it works.

    But some are taking a cooler view. Prof Marcus du Sautoy, of Oxford University and author of Finding Moonshine, told the Telegraph: "The proposal in this paper looks a long shot and there seem to be a lot things still to fill in."

    And a colleague Eric Weinstein in America added: "Lisi seems like a hell of a guy. I'd love to meet him. But my friend Lee Smolin is betting on a very very long shot."

    Lisi's inspiration lies in the most elegant and intricate shape known to mathematics, called E8 - a complex, eight-dimensional mathematical pattern with 248 points first found in 1887, but only fully understood by mathematicians this year after workings, that, if written out in tiny print, would cover an area the size of Manhattan.

    Post this story to: del.icio.us | Digg | Newsvine | NowPublic | Reddit | Fark

    External links

    Someone on this site said the other day that �El Naschie who is a student of W. Heisenberg took the idea of unit coupling of Planck masses to the Aether from another student of Heisenberg who is a professor in Nevada, USA.� These are again sloppy remarks and not very helpful. El Naschie is a follower of Heisenberg, new him slightly but was influenced by him greatly. However El Naschie was a student of Theodore Lehman and Alf Pfl�ger in the University of Hannover. He was instructed by T. Kaluza in mathematics but was never a student of Heisenberg. The Nevada professor is most probably Prof. Friedwardt Winterberg. He is a very interesting man indeed. He published most of his work in the Journal of Prof. David Finkelstein of Georgia Tech, USA. To state that the Planck mass gravitational coupling constant is unity is almost trivial. Prof. Winterberg stated this fact and developed a fundamental theory based on a Planck Aether hypothesis. El Naschie may have been stimulated by it if he knew about it, but it is very far from El Naschie�s transfinite E8 theory and the golden mean scaling. What El Naschie has done however was to see that the 2-Adic expansion of 137 is 128 plus 8 plus 1. This was interpreted by him as the inverse coupling of the electroweak fine structure constant, inverse coupling of the strong coupling and quantum gravity coupling. Thus taking quantum gravity coupling to be unity is obvious, but 2-Adic expansion of 137 being unity is not obvious at once. This is the insight of El Naschie. He connected P-Adic number filed with fractals and fractals with the golden mean. At the end we have this magnificent structure called from E-8 to E-infinity for which sooner or later he will be recognized as the man who completed quantum field theory and unified strings and loop quantum gravity in a single mathematical structure, the transfinite E8 exceptional Lie symmetry group.

    Posted by Ferdinand Vollrath on March 31, 2008 4:45 PM
    Report this comment

    Hi, i had another vision, this one was the most incredible !! I saw the equation laid out, looked so complex. It was the theory of everything!. I was in a mind altered state at the time (nothing illegal). Really awesome. This is 1st posting, will seed some. Just wondered if anyone's interested, got advice, where should i go with this info?. Who should i talk to ? Is it any good, seems when i check google everybody's already found it.
    Rob, Hertfordshire.
    I live 45mins from Cambridge, maybe i should try there ?
    Posted by Robert Beswick on March 27, 2008 9:18 PM
    Report this comment

    Talking of Lisi, El Naschie, Green and some other famous names of string theory and electronic publishing archives, I am reminded of the despicable and outrageous false allegations made by Dr. Carlos Castro against his colleague and in fact against our scientific community at large. I can attest that Carlos Castro�s name is not Carlos Castro. He is not American. He is from ex-Russian republic. His real surname is Perlemann. He speaks English fluently and Spanish having been raised in Bolivia. Most of his friends feel sorry for him. He has no fixed address and no fixed job. He claims to have a degree from MIT and a doctorate from Georgia Tech. He knows David Finkelstein and many others but he cannot help but bite in the end all the hands that have tried to help him. Somehow he smuggled himself into the vicinity of Prof. M. Green and Prof. M. El Naschie and others. Without Prof. M. El Naschie knowledge he published a paper on the net with the name of Elnaschie on it. The cheat has done this intentionally in order to embarrass the University of Cambridge, M. Green and M. S. Elnaschie. Cambridge was understandably mad at Mohamed El Naschie and he left Cambridge. Castro did not have the decency to take Elnaschie name out. This is the gratitude which Castro has showed toward El Naschie for helping him financially and in many other ways as well. Elnaschie is an extremely rich man. He neither needs to work in Cambridge or anywhere else. He is an extremely kind and generous man who just happened to love physics although he was a very successful structural engineer and a national political hero in Arabia. He found it under his dignity to persecute Castro in court of justice or to answer to any of his primitive allegations made against him by madly jealous people. His attitude is that you cannot be a gentleman and lower yourself by answering what is beneath one�s dignity.

    K. Ahmed

    Posted by Khaled Ahmed on March 26, 2008 7:14 PM
    Report this comment

    Garrett Lisi, I did send you few emails asking about the connection between your work and that of El Naschie. I am extremely interested in your work and his and would appreciate your answer at your earliest convenience. Many of El Naschie�s papers are published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, a well known Elsevier Journal of quantum and nanotechnology with the highest impact factor worldwide in this field (2.5). A comprehensive paper which contains most of El Naschie�s ideas is: Average exceptional Lie and Coxeter group hierarchies with special reference to the standard model of high energy physics�, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol. 37 issue 3, August 2008, pp. 662-668.


    Posted by David on March 26, 2008 7:00 PM
    Report this comment

    Mohamed El Naschie invited article for world year of physics in 2005 contains all the main ideas for the E8 exceptional symmetry group. Elnaschie used coxeter polytop in conjunction with Fuzzy Kahler K3 manifold used in string compactification. The paper is published in an Israeli journal in Tel Aviv by Freund publishing House Ltd. The journal is: International Journal of Nonlinear Sciences & Numerical Simulations 6(2) 94-97 (2005). The title is: On a Fuzzy Kahler-like manifold which is consistent with the two-slit experiment.

    T. Chen

    Posted by Tim Chen on March 26, 2008 12:48 PM
    Report this comment

    How could anyone say, Elnaschie theory or for that matter Lisi�s theory when most of the work has been done by others! Take E-Infinity theory and you will find that Mohamed El Naschie has done little more than piecing the results of dozens of scientists together. The main idea of a Borel mix of different sets is due to the American grand master of physics J. A. Wheeler. The idea of a cantor set is of course due to George Cantor, the semitic Russian German mathematical genius and inventor of transfinite set theory. The golden mean Hausdorff dimension is a theorem of the Americans Mauldin and Williams. The golden mean number system is due to the Egyptian, N. Ahmed in Newcastle, England. The fuzzy kahler was suggested by L. Marek-Crnjac. The 26 dimensional polytop is due to Chinese Prof. Ji-Huan He. The quantum field connection was introduced by Romanian-American Goldfain. The 2-Adic expansion was discussed first by South American Carlos Castro. The Hausdorff dimension 4 plus golden mean power 3 was discovered by the Indian, Mary Selvam. The role of prime number of Poincare dedocahedron is due to the Italian, Gerardo Iovane. The holographic principle is due to Dutch Nobel Laureate Gerard �tHooft. The idea of scale dependence is due to French L. Nottale scale relativity. The random walk model as well as the label fractal space time is due to the remarkable English-Canadian student of Richard Feynman, Prof. Garnet Ord. The entire idea of E-Infinity for the resolution of the two slit problem is based on Feynman path integral. The idea of the platonic solids �.to Elnaschie is from his teacher W. Heisenberg. The idea of geometrizing physics is due to Minkowski and Einstein. Complex time was taken from Weyl, Wick and Hawkings. The idea of time complexity and bifurcation was taken from two of Elnaschie�s teachers, Ilya Prigogine and the outstanding English Engineering scientists, Prof. J. M. T. Thompson FRS. I could go on indefinitely but I will not. A little bit humility and modesty is in order. Self centeredness, racism, nationalism and religious discrimination are the mortal enemies of science. E-Infinity is not a revolution. It is an evolution of physics to higher levels by the collective effort of the scientific community. I. M. Smith
    Posted by Ian Smith on March 26, 2008 12:41 PM
    Report this comment

    I think I can explain how the golden mean of phi equal to 0.6190339898 enters into Elnaschie E-infinity and transfinite E8 exceptional Lie group theory.

    1. E-Infinity spacetime is made of infinitely many elementary random cantor sets. The Hausdorff dimension of these cantor sets, according to a theorem by Mauldin and Williams is equal to the golden mean.
    2. The stability of the dynamics of E-infinity is determined by KAM theorem. This theorem states that the most stable orbit is the one with a golden mean winding number.
    3. The E8 Gosset which is 8 dimensional is made of two concentric 600 cells polytops each is four dimensional. These polytops are generalizations of the golden mean proportioned platonic solids.
    4. Golden mean geometry guarantees simplistic dynamics. That means phase space area preserving or Hamiltonian dynamics.
    5. The golden mean is the solution of the simple nontrivial quadratic equation for which there is no difference between union and intersection. This is the resolution of the two slit-experiment.
    6. The golden mean binary system advocated in physics by the Egyptian, N. Ahmed at Newcastle Upon Thyne is the simplest number system.

    All the above 6 reasons conspired in recent time to revolutionize they way we do high energy physics.

    J. Sarions

    Posted by James Sarions on March 26, 2008 8:43 AM
    Report this comment

    Many commentators and readers of this site and other physics blogs have repeatedly inquired about the real dimensionality of E8 as well as E-Infinity. Let me start by a fundamental difference between E-Infinity and all other theories of physics. In E-Infinity the dimensionality is resolution dependent. This is truly new in physics. In E-Infinity, the accuracy of observation is indispensable part of the fundamental equation. Once the energy is fixed say at that of the classical Garrett Lisi E8 then there is no problem in saying what E-Infinity sees as a dimensionality. Since E8 Gosset is made of two fundamental concentric 600 cells Coxeter polytops, the Gosset is eight dimensional. However, we have some 240 kissing points corresponding to the 240 roots. Adding the 8 dimensions to the 240 roots we obtain the dimension of the Lie algebra.

    Another sophisticated name for this surface dimension of the Lie algebra is the E8 manifold. Now in E-Infinity the 8 remains 8 but 248 is slightly less by a very small transfinite correction based on the golden mean harmony or in the terminology of El Naschie simplisticity. This is just the mathematical way of saying area preservation or conservation of phase space and consequently conservation of energy. Next take a bird�s eye view of the entire thing and you will see an ordinary 4 dimensional manifold if you are sufficiently far. This is the well known magic of cantor sets and fractals. The invariance of dimensionality is valid no more. It is all dependent on the accuracy with which one is probing space time. In his lecture in Abdusalam Aula in the centre of theoretical physics in Trieste, Elnaschie showed a fascinated audience how the manifold of all the exceptional Lie symmetry groups family transform by golden mean scaling to the Klein-modular curve of the particle physics holographic boundary of �tHooft and Susskind. Details of this analysis is given with beautiful colorful graphics in a recent paper in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol 37(2008), pp. 662-668 which maybe found on line at www.sciencedirect.com.

    S. Sebastian

    Posted by Serge Sebastian on March 26, 2008 8:40 AM
    Report this comment

    Someone once asked in the Wolfram Forum.com if anyone could tell him what are the elements (points) of El Naschie�s E-Infinity spacetime and which are the open sets in this manifold. Well this is a mathematician�s talk. I cannot answer as a mathematical physicist. However, I can answer as a simple minded theoretical physicist. The points are the Cantor dust. But these are transfinite �fractal� points. They are measure zero but they have non zero dimension. Some sets could be fate cantor sets. This is all not important. What is important is the Hausdorff dimension of the total core of the manifold. This is exactly equal 4 plus phi to power 3. That means 4.236067977 as explained repeatedly by Elnaschie. After that you have onion like Cantorian manifold with larger and larger dimensions and less and less probability. For instance 137 of electromagnetism may be seen as a dimension and similarly, 496 of super strings. Finally one finds 336 of Klein modular curve and the 548 equal 4 multiplied by 137 of Elnaschie�s exceptional Lie groups hierarchy. There are of course open sets and closed sets. However, we have also Clopen set which is both open and closed. Thus the most important elements in Elnaschie�s E-Infinity theory are the dimensions. The inverse of the dimension is normalized probability. The main tool of the analysis in Elnaschie�s theory is scaling which is both a generalization and simplification of the local gauge principle. In some sense Weyl gauge principle is at long last vindicated by the work of the school of fractal spacetime, namely Ord, Nottale and Elnaschie. Strangely this idea goes back to the greatest of the very great Richard Feynman as shown in an old paper by Elnaschie in which a letter from R. Feynman to Garnet Ord was reproduced. If I remember correctly, the paper was published in an Elsevier Journal: Chaos, Solitons & Fractals.

    Fred Minsk

    Posted by Fred Minsk on March 25, 2008 1:02 PM
    Report this comment

    The eternal question is what is the relation between symmetry and elementary particles? Noether�s theorem states that every symmetry corresponds to a conservation law. If symmetry is broken, the conservation equation is violated. This means a little amount of energy is lost. This loss corresponds in high energy physics to a particle. In E8E8 we have as many particles as symmetries and therefore superstring theory starts with 248 + 248 = 496 symmetries. Lisi works with 248 of them and doesn�t need to invoke string theory. El Naschie on the other hand can use either the string model or the network model of Lee Smolin, Loop quantum mechanics. The crucial point in Elnaschie�s E-Infinity is the transfinite golden mean corrections. For instance, the exact theory requires that E8E8 have 496 minus a small amount equal to 0.18033989 squared which is 495.967477. Consequently, the inverse fine structure constant is nothing but this last value of alpha divided by 3 plus the golden mean which gives us the exact theoretical value of E-Infinity namely 137.082039325. Elnaschie called that transfinite harmonization and likened it to composing a symphony where everything fit harmoniously. Seen in the light of the above, the connection to the golden mean proportioned platonic solids does not come as a surprise. The road from there back to E8 is clearly marked. The 600-cell Coxeter polytop is a 4-dimensional generalization of the platonic bodies. Taking two concentric 600-cells polytops, one finds the E8 Gosset. Finally, an action principle and a corresponding Lagrangian may be found by connecting the roots of E8 with the 240 kissing points of the same. These spheres kissing points are related to dense sphere packing in higher dimensional space. Thus our Lagrangian may be related to a maximal density principle. To see the perfect beauty and simplicity, let us recall that 8 and its inverse are 2-Adictally equal. Multiplication by 8 and 1/8 with 496 gives us the number of super Yang-Mills states and the number of elementary particles in the standard model respectively namely 3968 and 62. Both numbers are known to be correct although Elnaschie has shown that using the same mathematics at slightly higher energy the exact number of elementary particles is 69 rather than 62. In conclusion, we should mention that Lisi predicted 60+20 = 80 particles. Nevertheless, the standard model is not a single energy value but rather an energy range and in that sense El Naschie and Lisi are both correct.

    T. Lamont

    Posted by Tom Lamont on March 25, 2008 12:31 PM
    Report this comment

    The common view and I am stressing the word common is that there is no justice in this world. If there were justice in the world, the beautiful transfinite equation of high energy physics proposed by El Naschie should have been long universally accepted as the best piece of handy work in theoretical physics since decades if not more. However, I see things differently and I think there is justice in the world except it takes longer to be attained. In general there is justice and the proof is that Leonard de Vinci and Monaliza exist. But there is also injustice and the proof is that Bush and Condoliza exist. It is Escher Engel-devil duality all over again which is tiling the world as Klein-modular curve of �tHooft-Elnaschie hologram.

    J. Holland.

    Posted by J. Holland on March 25, 2008 12:27 PM
    Report this comment

    I think in discussing Lisi and Elnaschie, the work of Maher based on the chaotic quantization of the German mathematician Christian Beck has been overlooked. Beck�s approach followed that of G. Parisi, �tHooft and particularly Elnaschie. However unlike the work of Elnaschie, Beck�s work is numerically and uses ad hoc potential. It is very interesting but for a mathematician lacks mathematical rigor. For more about this work, I recommend an article in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol. 37, issue 1, July 2008, communicated by Prof. Dr. W. Martienssen from University of Frankfurt, Germany.

    G. Weibel

    Posted by George Weibel on March 24, 2008 8:32 PM
    Report this comment

    It is pleasing to know that there is nothing new under the sun because Elnaschie�s theory and therefore also Lisi�s theory are a trivial extension of the theory of Reflection Groups and Coxeter Groups. Elnaschie�s famous formula leading to the inverse golden mean to the power of 3 and therefore a dimension of 4.236067977 is nothing but a special case of the Poincare polynomial for t equal the golden mean. Elnaschie himself acknowledged that in a recent short note published in Elsevier science direct, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (2008), doi:10.1616/j. Chaos.2008.02.001. The paper is titled: Mathematical Foundation of E-Infinity via Coexter and reflection groups. People should read more and write less.

    D. Cohen

    Posted by D. Cohen on March 23, 2008 10:11 PM
    Report this comment

    I don�t think it is for being a Moslem that the work of the great thinker Mohamed El Naschie has been suppressed. The problem is deeper. It is plain jealousy. This is one of humanities biggest mortal sin committed by all. El Naschie�s wealth and dashing good lucks have not endeared him to the bookworms. And to add insult to injury he is an Engineer. In Egypt, that makes him la cr�me de la cr�me. Add to that his wit and youthful demeanor at almost 70 years old and you could hear members of the so-called mainstream eating their hearts out. Those who love him however are the overwhelming majority. They are not only women but very highly respectable scientists; some of them are Nobel Laureates like Ahmed Zewail, Ilya Prigogine and A. Legget who seem to think very highly of him as transpired in various discussions in which I was present.

    G. Bretta

    Posted by Gilda Bretta on March 23, 2008 9:51 PM
    Report this comment

    If you want to have a bird�s eye view of the work of El Naschie and Lisi, you just need to log into the site of SLAC in Stanford USA. The site is called SPIRES-HEP. Last time I checked it out, I found 106 papers listed for El Naschie on high energy physics and particularly quarks confinement. Rather surprising information and not known to me before were also found. The site could be found when googling with words like: El Naschie and Lisi or with El Naschie and the Nobel Prize in physics

    M. Momadi

    Posted by Mansur Momadi on March 23, 2008 9:41 PM
    Report this comment

    Dr. El Naschie is apparently a prominent Aeronautical Engineer at least originally. I found one of his papers on a site for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA). However, I did find that he is also at Surrey University and a CV is given on the site of ZoomInfor �Business people information�. There it is mentioned that 200 postgraduate students and college staff members attended his lectures and that he has been recently nominated for the Nobel Prize in physics.

    A. Ameer

    Posted by Ahmed Ameer on March 23, 2008 7:25 PM
    Report this comment

    Science Discoveries Net, called it �El Naschie revolution in high energy physics� and a revolution it is. Almost single-handedly, with a little help from his friend Garrett Lisi, the two free spirited men turned the tables on the establishment. The sheer quantity of original ideas and concepts flowing almost constantly from his Egyptian brain is awesome: Cantor sets, P-Adic numbers, Exceptional Lie groups, Transfinite harmonization, Fuzzy Klein modular curves, Holographic principle, Descriptive set theory, Feigenbaum turbulence, Transfinite graph theory, KAM theorem, Complexity theory and T-like dualities are just a few of his mathematical tools kit. Mohamed was also sufficiently smart and realistic not to confront the establishment of high energy physics head on. He initially deflected his path and published mainly in two or three of the main nonlinear dynamics journals. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals was obviously his most preferred venue and is by now the most famous Elsevier Journal with an impact factor of 2.5 which is unheard of for a mathematical journal. Nonetheless, his work caused a stir and forced him to leave Cambridge after the death of his friend Prof. David Crighton FRS, the Head of DAMPT and subsequent departure of his teacher and mentor who brought him to Cambridge in the first place, Sir Herman Bondi who together with Gold and Hoile were the pioneers of the cosmological steady state theory. In a very short introduction to the Lisi-Elnaschie dialogue, JAKARTASS gave an objective view of the controversy. However, the best reading of the E8 theory I found is in a paper published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol. 37 (2008) 662-668 titled: �Average exceptional lie and Coxeter group hierarchies with special reference to the standard model of high energy particle physics�, available online at: www.sciencedirect.com. In particular the golden mean transformation of E8 to Klein modular curve given in fig. 3 of this paper is a genuine revolutionary insight into high energy and quantum gravity physics which is destined to make history. A final tip: when Googling for Mohamed El Naschie, write only El Naschie. He spells his name in different ways, so you have to try several times. His real Arabic surname is Alnashaee.


    Posted by Alexander Donnelly on March 23, 2008 7:22 PM
    Report this comment

    As I see it the work of Elnaschie is much deeper than just the E8 symmetry of Lisi. Elnaschie asks a deep question similar to that of Albert Einstein and those who are similarly disenchanted by quantum mechanics, namely is quantum mechanics a complete theory? Elnaschie answered this old question in a novel way by saying that both quantum mechanics and Newtonian mechanics are unified in a deeper theory: that of
    nonlinear dynamics and chaos. Since cantor sets and fractals constitute the geometry of chaos Elnaschie used it to model spacetime. From there everything else follows. Those who do not understand the basic principles of nonlinear dynamics such as the three body problem, non-integrability, Poincar� resonance, period doubling and Poincar� recurrence could not possibly understand Elnaschie�s work.

    Posted by Mark O Connor on March 20, 2008 12:22 AM
    Report this comment

    I was mildly horrified by the startling comments of Nobel laureate Prof Brian Josephson posted to this cite on November 15th, 2007. Brian, who is a Cambridge, England professor and is well known to me stated in no ambiguous terms that the string theoretists who run the physics preprint archive have the nasty habit of blocking submissions of papers advocating alternative approaches like that of Garrett Lisi and his colleagues dealing with E8 and E-infinity. I heard this before many times from a host of rather serious scientists. However coming from a Nobel laureate and a Cambridge professor, this is altogether something else. If true, it is scandalous. In fact it borders on criminality and it warrants a criminal investigation for misuse of authority.

    In this context I am reminded of the witch hunt conducted against an ex-Cambridge theoretical physicist which continues until this day. The disgraceful episodes started after the departure of a powerful Head of Department who protected the said professor. The main crime of the professor was that he advocated a non-continuous spacetime made of uncountably many discrete points which effectively solved most contradictions in super strings. If all this is true, and of course I cannot say for sure that it is one hundred percent true, then I regret that I opted to become a scientist thinking that this community has a different set of values based on ethics, truthfulness and fairness.

    J. Hutchinson

    Posted by J. Hutchinson on March 10, 2008 11:22 PM
    Report this comment

    An important but not that well-known hard core mathematical result in p-Adic quantum mechanics is the following:
    A p-Adic number field is a homomorphism of a Cantor set.

    In a paper entitled �A few hints and some theorems about Witten�s M theory and T-duality� published in 2005 in an Elsevier Journal for nonlinear dynamics and chaos (vol. 25, pp. 545-548), M. Elnaschie developed a theory based on the above which amounts to a quantum gravity unification. The core idea is like usual very simple. In p-Adic theory a large number maybe very small and vice versa. For instance 137 could be shown to be equal to unity in the p-Adic Cantor sense. Said differently, the very large can meet the very small. In the words of Elnaschie, it is:
    �Similar to Friedrich Kekule�s vision of a serpent which caught its own tail�

    Therefore one surmises that the topology of a cantor-set like spacetime is behind many Witten-like dualities of the T-type. It may well be that extreme order and extreme disorder are related in a similar way. This is probably the rationale behind Elnaschie proposal to derive the pattern of the E8 Gossett from the principle of maximum entropy. The physical idea is clearly related to that of maximum sphere backing density or sphere kissing numbers where the kissing number is equal to the number of roots. It is thus tempting to see Elnaschie dense sphere packing as a substitute for a Lagrangian and an action principle.

    J. Claude

    Posted by Jean Claude on March 10, 2008 4:23 PM
    Report this comment

    Mohamed was evidently a student of Heisenberg and seems to have used some of the work of another student of Heisenberg without giving him due credit. The professor in question is in Nevada, USA. He introduced the Planck Aether theory and found the Planck particles-coupling to be unity. This is a crucial result which Elnaschie used to derive Newton�s dimensionless constant as well as proving quark confinement.

    J. Meyers

    Posted by Josh Meyers on March 10, 2008 10:11 AM
    Report this comment

    It is not important how many papers you publish or even how much you know. Important is only how important and original these papers are. El Naschie has written in the last 2 years about 2 papers every week. True there are a few excellent papers coming from him recently. But many of his earlier papers are completely incomprehensible to me.

    F. Gustavo

    Posted by Federico Gustavo on March 10, 2008 10:09 AM
    Report this comment

    Mohamed Elnaschie has been writing one original research paper every week for the last three years. I made this calculation myself. That makes him either a Poincar�-like genius or a mad man. Maybe he is both.

    J. Carlos

    Posted by Juan Carlos on March 9, 2008 9:46 PM
    Report this comment

    Lisi�s work as well as that of Elnaschie�s has an indirect experimental confirmation when put in the context of the WMAP results. The point is that the WMAP dissonances is explained by the twisted Poincar� dodecahedron while E8 is related to the generalization of the platonic dodecahedron to Coexter 600-cell polytop and therefore to the E8 Gossett. Nature is ingeniously simple. This is the main message of the E8 proposal.

    T. Johns

    Posted by Trevor Johns on March 9, 2008 8:23 PM
    Report this comment

    On the whole Duncan Kilham�s comments posted 1st March are reasonable and meaningful. He errs and should stand corrected regarding priorities. Mohamed El Naschie was a full professor of engineering and working on stability and bifurcation before Lisi was born and his work on E8 exceptional lie groups is at least one decade before Lisi�s paper. El Naschie is an Egyptian, not a Saudi. Some will say it is the same, namely Arab. With no disrespect intended, it is not entirely the same. It is rather like Austrians and Germans - both speak German but they are not the same. If they were then English would be American. Again, no disrespect is meant.
    Posted by M. Byrnes on March 6, 2008 2:50 PM
    Report this comment

    I do feel that Archimedes' way of announcing his major discovery, was more elegant than that attributed to Dr. Lisi
    Posted by John Bailey on March 2, 2008 2:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Lisi�s E8 theory seems to have been hijacked by a Saudi physicist Mohamed El Naschie working at King Abullah Al Saud Institute for Nano & Advanced Technology. Using Lisi�s theory he proved with full mathematical rigor the enigmatic phenomena of quarks confinement. The idea is disarmingly simple. El Naschie gives the following self evident analogy. Searing for free quarks is like searching for water at 200 degrees above or below zero. In both cases we cannot find any water. All that we find is either hot vapor or cold ice. Similarly when we smash protons we simply produce blank particles instead. We cannot see these blank particles because they constitute many black holes. The extra energy needed is simply delivered by the proton smashers themselves. Unbelievably simple, isn�t it? The mathematics is even simpler. Unfortunately El Naschie does not mention Lisi�s theory nor give him credit. Too bad. However if this is what Lisi�s theory has helped to resolve, then he clearly deserves the Nobel prize in theoretical physics for completing the work of David Gross.
    Posted by Duncan Kilham on March 1, 2008 12:49 AM
    Report this comment

    dear boys
    let me share as a little old lady just completing a
    ph.d titled 'Midwife to Gaia - birthing Global
    Consciousness" that the concepts you are all
    exploring scientifically are fantastic and much
    much simpler.
    we are all connected by a
    universal source of electromagnetic energy
    and unseen force
    as we raise our vibration from fear to love
    everything is perfect and all is one.
    ref:Dr Bruce Lipton
    Dr Joseph Chilton Pearce
    Maturana and Varella
    Peter Russell
    Rupert Sheldrake
    Dr Gillian Ross
    Dr Candace Pert
    Dr Julian Jaynes

    these are only a few now singing the same song

    my own formula for co-creation is

    I + O + A + CC

    which in turn is

    inspiration plus options plus action = co creation
    which is
    balance of left brain and right brain
    balance of yin and yang

    and intention with integrity


    the rest is HERSTORY!

    if you choose to comment




    the wave of change is sweeping the planet
    nothing can stop it
    we have reached critical mass


    Posted by estelle Myers on February 29, 2008 4:42 AM
    Report this comment

    I agree with the serious comments made by Prof. Wett (Feb 19) and Prof. Gonsalves (Feb 17) as well as Pavlovich (Feb 14). Lissi�s paper, as well as the contributions to E8, rounds up the picture. No one needs to think that quantum mechanics and the standard model will be completely replaced by something else. Nothing is further from the truth. E8 starts high, high up in the lofty tower of an all embracing theory then as we go down we find everything else. As an old physicist I remember times in Russia as well as in the USA when it was a sin to write Lagrangian. If you do not believe me ask some of the founding fathers of quantum field theory such as Gerrard �t Hooft. Now things have changed to exactly the opposite � it seems to be a sin not to start from a Lagrangian even when we are at ultra high energy where the words time and motion as well as measurement completely lose their original meanings. I advise serious readers to read without prejudice the dialogue and correspondence between El Naschie and Dan Winters (www.goldenmean.info/fractalscience) . You see you could think of the E8 gosset as two concentric 600-cell Coxeter polytopes. Since the polytopes are generalizations of the platonic bodies with golden mean proportions, golden mean transfiniteness is involved. There is no magic nor isoterical contemplation in all of that. It is nature and geometry and this is isoteric enough. We do not need any mysticism . It is all serious mathematics. I wish people would read new ideas free of prejudice. Only in this way can we understand how Lissi�s theory is really conventional as conventional can be. It solves the parts of the quest which lower energy theory cannot solve. That is actually all. All that is left is to thank Lee Smolin and the Telegraph for pointing out and making available to a wider public the work of Lissi, El Naschie and their school.

    Posted by Alin Georvichev on February 28, 2008 6:19 PM
    Report this comment

    this person needs to read other articles for example if he really needs the new TEO he shoud go to link and link hope it will be helpfull
    Posted by balungi on February 27, 2008 7:37 AM
    Report this comment

    Hang on! I drew exactly the same thing with my spirograph about 40 years ago.
    Posted by Andrew on February 26, 2008 9:43 AM
    Report this comment

    Yes It is about time that innovative idealist free
    thinkers who have no money and nowhere to
    sleep are coming up with ideas, because this
    world that we are living in, is destitute and is
    completely advertisement driven and lacks any
    sort of truth,I was bought up with ethics that my
    parents have now lost due to too much daily mail
    reading,cash is king and if you are not in,or dont
    pay the game the you cannot win!!!!The problem
    with the world is truth is only driven by the
    people of whom have a vested interest.Read
    people read.
    Posted by jacs on February 24, 2008 3:38 AM
    Report this comment

    updated dialog with El Naschie
    and Dan Winter..

    response to query:

    Is fractality the cause of gravity?

    Posted by dan winter on February 23, 2008 8:50 PM
    Report this comment

    "Being poor sucks," Lisi says. "It's hard to figure out the secrets of the universe when you're trying to figure out where you and your girlfriend are going to sleep next month."

    If this guy is so damn clever, why can't he get a job like the rest of us?

    Bloody layabouts.
    Posted by Rob Neal on February 23, 2008 5:32 AM
    Report this comment

    The comments by Charles Gonsalves are sober and concise. But three lines cannot do justice to Lisi�s paper and they could be misinterpreted. For instance, to say we must await correlation to accept it, physicists could miss the point and give the impression that Lisi�s paper is contradicting accepted physics. It is nothing of the sort. Lisi�s, similar to El Naschie�s, and other attempts go beyond the standard model and do not contradict it. In fact they confirm it. I tend to agree with Pavlovich and I should stress that Lisi�s and similar works by relegating the Lagrangian and time evolution to the backseat, when talking about ultra high energy, are utilizing an obvious backdoor to solve the dilemma. At ultra high energy, and as we learned from Hawking and others, time is spatialized. It is frozen in space as is the case with the so-called Cantorian spacetime or E-Infinity. This is taking Einstein�s ideas to the ultimate. We do not fix a point by three space coordinates and a time parameter but by four space time coordinates. The E8 proposal is taking this idea to its ultimate destination. Everything becomes relational - as proposed long ago by David Finkelstein. People should not be worried about Schr�dinger�s equation or matrix quantum mechanic. They all remain valid exactly as the path integral and other methods. However all these methodologies cannot tell us how many particles we have in the standard model. Experimentally we know we have 60 when counting particles in the fashion of Martinus Veltman. Lisi predicts twenty more particles still to be found within the energy scale of standard model or moderately above it. El Naschie on the other hand predicts only 9 more, one graviton and eight dimensional Higgs field, adding up to 69 elementary particles. The E8 proposal shows how from the frozen 496 dimensions of string theory exceptional symmetry group we can come down to only 69 particles which we could observe in principle if our experimental facilities are enhanced in an appropriate manner. Only here we could wait for experimental verification. In this sense Lisi�s proposal is a hit and the E8 methodology is ingeniously simple. Seen that way, E8 is indeed the fabric of the micro-cosmos.
    Posted by Serjey Wett on February 19, 2008 9:37 AM
    Report this comment

    i have had a look at Dr. Lisis' Paper E8/TOE. Have checked against other peoples work (Similar Claims) While Dr. Lisi is a bright guy, I do not consider his claim to be a hit.We await any correlation to accepted physics and "successful" predictions for the LHC
    Posted by Charles P Gonsalves on February 17, 2008 11:42 PM
    Report this comment

    Before Lisi�s story, I would not have touched the Telegraph even with my gloves on. But now I recognize it as a respectable internet newspaper for the educated and scientifically interested. It is doing a better job than some classrooms in respectable universities as far as broad scientific education is concerned. We have to stop self-replication. Most of the professors think of themselves as cloning machines to produce students who are mostly bad replicas of themselves. We should be grateful for the Telegraph for drawing our attention to someone like Lisi whom I never heard of before and very unlikely would have heard about him at all. Instead of being indignant at Lee Smolin, we should thank him for his open-mindedness. Instead of being outraged by a revolutionary theory coming from a Moslem scientist like Mohamed Elnaschie, we should wish that more Moslems like him set an example for the rest. Finally, I wish that the establishment in the West take notice of the tremendous development and contribution done by the Soviet and Russian schools. This is particularly directed to Lisi, El Naschie and others. In particular, the Russian P-adic quantum mechanic has been almost completely ignored. Maybe the Telegraph can change that.

    A. Pavlovich

    Posted by Alexi Pavlovich on February 14, 2008 10:48 AM
    Report this comment

    Dear gods, some people are dumb.

    December 2012 will not be the end of the world, no matter what the frigging Maya had to say. They weren't so clever that they predicted and avoided their own demise, were they? Morons.

    Anyway, well played that surfer dude. Another layer possibly uncovered. Hope the LHC confirms it.

    Maybe one day we will know if the Universe is fundamentally analogue or digital. But probably not, seeing as nothing else is - not even numbers.

    (There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.)
    Posted by Mark McAndrew on February 14, 2008 7:05 AM
    Report this comment


    From infinite emptiness to infinite solid, from
    infinite past to infinite future, from infinite small
    to infinite large, from infinite still to infinite
    energetic, from infinite angles, and infinite
    positions within and throughout, all a paradox of instantaneous beginning not having measure to
    it's beginning, and no measure to an end... and
    we as travelers, observers of the present, without
    depth to that mode, traveling toward the future,
    only to rediscover our previous steps via the
    traces we leave behind, and yet to discover our
    steps ahead, and in between all that is stated
    above, as a halfway point to all of it's dimensions. And our bubble of time of which we
    are our own centers, expands from us at the half
    way mark of existence, the speed of light, and so
    as we move about, our personal universes moves
    with us, and what we move from moves opposed
    in proportion to mass differences, and thus it
    has it's universe moved too. But being that time
    is measured at the half point of all infinite
    opposites, a time delay is imposed between such
    motions and opposing motions, causing a time variances as we execute motion. The simple act
    of walking makes us unwitting time travelers
    from our present, and the present is itself a
    traveler in time. And so God created coffee!

    (c) Feb 13, 2008 William Frank Davis
    Posted by William Davis on February 14, 2008 5:52 AM
    Report this comment

    Mostly interesting comments posted here which amount to contributions towards a "Hypothesis of Everything." Ultimately a theory has to relate to something else to be provable. The poem below is my contribution towards a "Theory of Nothing," and proves that even nothing must relate to something; ipso facto "nothing exists!"


    My greatest wealth was nothing.
    It grew from year to year.
    I found I could not share it.
    I was beyond dull care.

    I saw it, heard it, spoke it,
    and wore it into bed.
    To need it, seek it, eat it;
    were thoughts that raced ahead.

    Then suddenly a princess
    with wealth in "something" came.
    You smiled and I fell smitten.
    My life was not the same.

    My most respected treasure.
    Your wealth is now my glove.
    We fit so well together.
    A hand inside a glove.

    Where passion quickly quarrels
    true lovers make amends.
    Let's merge our "wealths" together
    and gradually our ends!

    � 1994 Ronald Francis Naylor
    Posted by Ron Naylor on February 12, 2008 12:33 AM
    Report this comment

    Hello. If anyone is friends with this surfer philosopher, I would appreciate his email, and Lisi, if your reading this. email me @ risingwind@riseup.net.
    I am a writing/international relations student in Santa Cruz, Ca, I don't understand the math yet, but I've been developing a startingly simple, yet (as far as I know) unheard of theory that came to me one day, and I'm working on it and it fits! and I know it also fits into E8 although I can't prove it yet, because I'm not a math genius. I've been working on this theory for 21 years and probably longer but I've only became aware of it in the last few years. contact me Lisi, no one thinks a 21 year old creative writing major could continue Albert's work either. I need someone to hear the theory, and tell me what they think. But I wont tell just anyone yet. If you are interested you should come to the Scruz and catch some of ours.
    Posted by Amber on February 9, 2008 7:22 PM
    Report this comment

    Why shouldn�t Lisi spend summer surfing and winter skiing. He doesn�t have money but he is a free man. My dear Ray Lisi is rich because he is free. His freedom has made him a remarkable physicist. Only those free from meaningless materialistic obligations like Lisi and El Naschie can produce new ideas.

    D. Salazar

    Posted by David Salazar on February 5, 2008 6:12 PM
    Report this comment

    what if your super atom splitter finds there really
    are sub atomic black holes. could they start to
    absorb energy on our planet. sorta like the blob the
    more it eats the bigger it gets. if you blast away
    whatever keeps them whithin there own universe.
    Posted by nick on February 4, 2008 9:15 PM
    Report this comment

    Not to belittle the man or his work, but I would hardly describe someone who can afford to spend the summer surfing in Hawaii and the winter snowboarding in Nevada as "impoverished."
    Posted by Ray on February 3, 2008 6:23 PM
    Report this comment

    There are two books published recently in China
    supporting the line of research of Dr.Lisi. Both books
    are edited by a well-known Chinese Professor of
    Mathematics & Nanotechnology, Prof. Ji-Huan He and
    both are produced by China Culture and Science
    Publishing. The first is titled: �Beyond the 2006
    Physics Nobel Prize for COBE � an introduction to
    E-Infinity spacetime theory� ISBN 988 � 97681 � 9 �
    4/0.4 (2006)
    The second is titled: �Transfinite Physics� ISBN 988 �
    98846 � 5 � 8 (2005). Both books have a large number
    of reprinted papers by a Cambridge Professor, M. S. El
    Naschie an inventor of a new theory of spacetime based
    on Cantor sets and the golden mean.

    Posted by G.D. Wu on January 31, 2008 4:41 PM
    Report this comment

    Garrett Lisi�s work is a breakthrough. Critical
    remarks are unfounded and jealous. The mathematical
    details of Lisi�s work were published few years ago in
    China. The book is edited by Chinese Professor Ji-Huan
    He. It is called �Transfinite physics� published by
    China Culture and Scientific Publishing ISBN 988 �
    88846 � 5 � 8 in 2005. The book consists of some 649
    pages and cover al aspects of high energy physics and
    new theory called Cantorian E-Infinity spacetime.

    Posted by Lie Song on January 31, 2008 8:35 AM
    Report this comment

    I completely agree with Stu B, i am also a surfer who enjoys science, history, and other intellectual endeavors, just because i have long hair, occasionally do drugs, and have odd theories about the surrounding universe doesn't make me
    a "surfer dude" first and a "scientist" second!
    Posted by mike S on January 29, 2008 5:23 AM
    Report this comment

    Being a surfer myself, I am offended by the use of surfer dude. Who by his own doing is an established member of society. The wording of the title is TERRIBLY MISLEADING...he is a physicist who happens to surf in his spare time. He knows how to have fun, looks like he plays hard and works harder! Would you say football boy stuns scientists with theory, if a bloke who played football on the weekend discovered something??
    Posted by Stu B on January 28, 2008 3:06 PM
    Report this comment

    Beyond what we believe scientifically and religion-wise to be the main forces operating within 'our' Universe, I feel there are likely to be an infinite number of them, not to mention universes. To simplify matters, I like to think that 'the main force' that governs us and all things / events would best be referred to as Fate, and that it likes to play tricks and provide lessons in the form of irony (nothing new about any of this, really). Just previous to reading re. the 'Dude,' an interesting example of the workings of this force I saw in an article on the Seattle Mariners American major league baseball team. More specifically, a comment about the diminutive import (all of 5 ft. 9 in. and weighing in at about 165 lbs.) from Japan named Ichiro, to whom the writer referred as a 'monument to statistical invariance' who performs with 'mind-boggling consistency' -- a remarkable athlete who in 7 seasons with Seattle scored exactly 111 runs in 4 of them and 110 in another, and walked exactly 49 times in 3 and 48 in another. Did he decide to stop precisely at these points? In any event, they are rather delicious numbers, among many others of his records in the majors. Ichiro also may be remembered as the batter who in 2004 set the new major league all-time record of 262 hits in a single season, breaking the old mark of 257 set by George Sisler of the St. Louis Browns in 1920. Sisler's effort was no mean feat, considering the record was to last 84 years before being broken by the Ichiro. Also, after 84 years Uranus returned to its 1920 position in our heavens. Astrologically, such Uranus transits are known to coincide with great changes and reversals, and simultaneously in this instance, the passage of Pluto (no longer a planet, but still continues to be regarded as the Fate significator) thru Sagittarius corresponded with great upheavals, (both positive and negative) in the sports world, that often took on a global nuance. Not exactly theoretical physics, but earth happenings given a cosmological cast no less.
    Posted by Arnold Miyagawa on January 28, 2008 8:57 AM
    Report this comment

    It looks to me as Dmitri Mendeleev's periodic Table. Now little over 20 particles are missing. If the Huge New Accelerator is able to find their traces
    then indirect proof of this new theory will provide it's survival, or otherwise it's demise. It's a brave, beautiful, anti-intuitive and new path. Watch out for it.
    Posted by Manuel Martins on January 27, 2008 7:19 PM
    Report this comment

    The empire of the mainstream (where mediocrity reigns) is striking back. Lisi is �No Einstein� is the new headline. But this is what was said about Einstein himself. Until this moment there are people who claim that special relativity and general relativity are wrong. There are of course problems with Lisi�s proposal. He didn�t cure quantum mechanics. Probability with a phase for instance is a strange concept. But this is what �tHooft and various other scientists attempted to solve. Fuzzy logic, fuzzy geometry and fuzzy topology based on fuzzy set theory could replace quantum mechanics. El Naschie in the University of Frankfurt, Germany proposed such fuzzy geometry for spacetime which is called fuzzy k�hler manifold. His paper was chosen as the most highly cited paper by Thomson ISI Essential Science Indicators. ( Link ) link

    I think Lisi should go on with his research and forget what people say. He should remember what Richard Feynman said: �What do you care about what other people say�. Fuzzy E8 and E-Infinity are new ideas entering physics and this will make some people less than happy. ( Link ) link. New ideas are urgently needed. This was the message at the turn of the century which was sent by one of the greatest theoretical physicists of all time, Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg, in an article published in Scientific America. New ideas will never evolve from the traditional establishment, with a very few exceptional minds such as �tHooft and similarly inclined people.

    Ed Flores

    Posted by Ed Flores on January 22, 2008 4:54 PM
    Report this comment

    I think I can prove that El Naschie�s discovery of E8 unification preceded that of Lissi by several years at least and go beyond it. First El Naschie unlike Lissi understood the role of transfinite harmony via the golden mean. Second El Naschie worked with the bulk represented by E8E8 manifold and the holographic boundary represented by Klein�s modular curve or SL(2,7) simple linear Lie symmetry group. Subsequently he showed that the dimension of E8E8 multiplied with the instanton number of the K�hler manifold corresponding to the holographic boundary is equal to the dimension of the holographic boundary multiplied with the instanton number of E8E8 manifold. In other words, every physical field of fundamental interaction is a topological deformation of any other. That means all is derivable of all. This is far ahead of Lissi. El Naschie found long ago that the masses of all elementary and composite particles such as Mesons are obtained from the ratios of the various topological invariants of the involved Lie groups and golden mean scaling after introducing the fundamental concept of average symmetry. Finally I should mention that El Naschie extended his work to things which are in essence generalizations of the exceptional Lie groups namely 2 Stein and 3 Stein spaces.

    All these papers are on the net and Elsevier Science Direct but just in case, and as a service to our community, I will give some details:
    1. Holographic dimensional reduction. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (CS&F;), 29
    p. 816-822 2006.
    2. Superstrings, entropy and elementary particle content of the standard model. CS&F;, 29, p. 48-54 2006.
    3. Average symmetry, stability and ergodicity of multidimensional Cantor sets. Il Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 109 B, N.2. Feb. 1994.
    4. One and two Stein space hierarchies in high energy physics. CS&F; doi:10.1016/j.chaos.2007.09.051.
    5. A review of E-infinity theory. CS&F; 19, p. 209-236 2004.
    6. On a class of fuzzy K�hler-like manifolds. CS&F;, 26, p. 257-261 2005.

    Posted by Tareq Khan on January 22, 2008 9:42 AM
    Report this comment

    Since the New Scientist magazine is refusing to publish any comments connected to Prof. Mohamed El Naschie and his work on the exceptional E8 symmetry groups, I ask you all if they would not have published a long article if his first name would not be Mohamed and his passport would not be Egyptian and his main concern peace in the Middle East? Try to be honest with yourself and answer this question and then you will hopefully write to the New Scientist that they should be ashamed of themselves for not at least publishing another point of view. The opinion of the majority of the world�s population, the opinion of what they call the third world.

    A Nobel prize for a Mohamed � that would be the day!

    Posted by Islam Abdullah on January 21, 2008 10:30 PM
    Report this comment

    Although both men are non-mainstream, more or less totally independent scholars, there is a difference between G. Lissi and M. El Naschie which I wonder if other readers may have noticed. Lissi is essentially a mathematical physicist in the first instance. El Naschie on the other hand is in the first place an engineering scientist which is noticeable from his approach to physics. I found that very clear from the following. El Naschie in his paper �On 336 Kissing spheres in 10 dimensions, 528 P-Brane states in 11 dimensions and the 60 elementary particles of the standard model�, published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 24, pp. 447-457 uses the tangible and easily visualized concept of sphere Kissing to model massless particle states or massless gauge Bosons. The classical problem of sphere Kissing was solved for 3D by Newton and the answer is 12. El Naschie connected that to the 12 Bosons of the standard model and then went higher and higher with his dimensions. For E8 the Kissing number is 240. This is 8 less than the dimension of E8, namely 248. Now Lissi uses the same number 240. However Lissi thinks of it as the Roots number. Well, Root numbers and Kissing numbers are identical for the classical exceptional Lie symmetry groups. But Roots are vectors and thus more mathematical which appealed to Lissi more than Kissing numbers which Lissi never mentioned in his work. None the less, Kissing numbers may be more useful because in ten dimensions we have 336 of them which is exactly equal to the number of independent components of Riemann tensors in 8 dimensions while we know that E8 is the largest exceptional group and it is not easy to argue for say E9 although Nicolai in Einstein�s Max Plank Institute and El Naschie made a complex proposal for an E10 and E11 groups.

    A similar observation regards numbers. El Naschie as a practically minded engineer deals masterly with numbers. By contrast Lissi loves Fiber Bundels concepts and numbers are secondary to him. However at the end, it is only 248 and 240 of E8 that work and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    I hope these comments will stimulate more constructive discussion of the subject rather than talking about things which are neither here nor there.

    Posted by Fareed Galal on January 21, 2008 2:19 PM
    Report this comment

    Hold it! � Before singing the Lissi and El Naschie songs of praise you should remember that they stood on the shoulders of giants. El Naschie himself admits being deeply indebted to W. Heisenberg, J. Wheeler, D. Finkelstein, J. Shwarz, M. Green. R. Penrose and G. �t Hooft. These are well known giants but there are also little and totally unknown giants. For instance one should never forget that an American lawyer who is a hobby group theoretist living in Atlanta worked on a very similar subject to that of Lissi. This lawyer�s name is Tony Smith and even the great D. Finkelstein refers to him in his classical book on quantum relativity published by Springer. Also I would like to see Lissi distancing himself from attacking super string theory and siding with loop quantum mechanics. For my money, Lie Smolin is one of the cleverest theoretical physicists of all time. He is well connected with the media, as well as with great scientists but he is quite over the top when it comes to the beautiful super string theory. I find El Naschie�s attitude towards super string theory healthier. He criticizes it but he likes it and uses it although his approach is nearer to loop quantum mechanics. It is true he works with infinite dimensional spacetime but the expectation value is D = 4. Also his E-infinity is a generalization of the symmetry of the platonic bodies with golden mean proportionalities. The edges and vertices resemble in this case a network. I recall in this connection El Naschie�s paper �Fuzzy Dodecahedron and quantum physics� published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 30, pp. 1025-1033 (2006). Similarly El Naschie wrote a paper on cosmic Da Vinci codes and another one entitled �The Fibonacci code behind super strings and P-Branes� published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 31, pp. 537-547 (2007). In other words, El Naschie is just finishing what the old Greek civilization started but at the end of the day, it was Lissi who drew our attention to all of that and whether he referred to Witten, Shwarz, Green and El Naschie or not, we must all thank and congratulate him.
    Posted by David Grayson on January 20, 2008 8:45 PM
    Report this comment

    I think Dan Winter concentrated on the most important aspect of Mohamed El Naschie�s work which is the golden mean. Dan�s genius realized that the golden mean is more fundamental than El Naschie�s Cantor sets. In fact the golden mean already implies a random Cantor set because it is equal to the Hausdorff dimension as discovered by two American mathematicians, D. Mauldin and his student Whiliams and this is a few years before El Naschie. Also Dan, just like Mohamed, realized that the Greek were there before anyone else. The symmetry of the Platonic bodies was postulated to be the key for understanding the universe. The most fundamental of the platonic bodies are, by their very nature, golden mean proportioned. All that is totally missing from Lissi�s work, but again, just as Lissi overlooked the monumental work of El Naschie, El Naschie overlooked a beautiful paper by the American Frank Potter. The paper is entitled �Geometrical basis for the standard model�, published in the Int. Journal of Theoretical Physics, 33, p. 279-305, 1994. In fact it seems that El Naschie, using the number of vertexes, edges and faces added together reached the same conclusion as Potter but using a different method. Nevertheless, he should have referred to Potter�s work exactly as he is entitled to priority for his work on E8 unification implied by his E-infinity theory. I am also concerned that Lissi seems to be taking sides in the string-loop struggle. Lissi, without much justification disregards super strings. However El Naschie�s work clearly shows that super strings and Brane theories are essential ingredients in the complete picture. I wish everyone to read the wonderful book of Lie Smolin �The trouble with physics� to see that one should be fair and open minded to new ideas. I wish also that Lie Smolin would take his own book seriously and look more objectively at strings, Brane and other theories such as that of Dan Winters.
    Posted by Sam Jameson on January 18, 2008 9:46 PM
    Report this comment

    we did this in school it called String Art...Very pretty....
    Posted by Pink Dragon on January 18, 2008 6:42 PM
    Report this comment

    There might be some clues here

    * line 134: The quantity of energy taken in or given out when electronic or other positions are shifted is always a "quantum" or some multiple thereof, but the vibratory or wavelike behavior of such units of energy is wholly determined by the dimensions of the material structures concerned. Such wavelike energy ripples are 860 times the diameters of the ultimatons, electrons, atoms, or other units thus performing. The never-ending confusion attending the observation of the wave mechanics of quantum behavior is due to the superimposition of energy waves: Two crests can combine to make a double-height crest, while a crest and a trough may combine, thus producing mutual cancellation.

    * line 165: While the space charge of universal force is homogeneous and undifferentiated, the organization of evolved energy into matter entails the concentration of energy into discrete masses of definite dimensions and established weight--precise gravity reaction.

    * line 170: Ultimatons do not describe orbits or whirl about in circuits within the electrons, but they do spread or cluster in accordance with their axial revolutionary velocities, thus determining the differential electronic dimensions. This same ultimatonic velocity of axial revolution also determines the negative or positive reactions of the several types of electronic units. The entire segregation and grouping of electronic matter, together with the electric differentiation of negative

    source The UB

    E8 could be all linked with the ultimaton the very nature of matter

    Posted by sevens on January 15, 2008 8:53 PM
    Report this comment

    The important discovery of Garrett Lissi and Mohamed El Naschie regarding the incredible exceptional E8 of Lissi and E-infinity of El Naschie brought to mind the memory of an old story which I witnessed some 20 years ago. A very bright chap at Princeton worked on what became known as Quarternionic Quantum Mechanics and fields. Eventually he wrote a book which appeared in Oxford. He subsequently faced fierce opposition from some of his very powerful colleagues. Imagine what would have happened if he had written a book on octionic quantum field. This however is exactly what Lissi and El Naschie have rediscovered with a twist. Exceptional Lie groups are built on octonions. Incidentally quaternionic quantum mechanics also involves oconions but the unique character of octonionic quantum field theory was not that clear before Lissi�s work as well as El Naschie�s Cantorian spacetime.

    It is great that there are brave people like Garrett and Mohamed who can turn the tide. They are exceptional in a way. One is exceptionally poor and the other exceptionally rich, or so we are led to believe. Could we also make an exception and give these two outsiders their due with the same generosity with which they have given us a new theory? I do not think it will happen, but let us hope that the basic character of human beings may evolve for the better just like the evolution now taking place in theoretical physics thanks to these two scientific nomads.

    Posted by Charles Wright on January 15, 2008 2:55 PM
    Report this comment


    You very kindly posted my comments - 12 Jan 10.40 p.m. but on the third line of the 2nd para I put a symbol which has not appeared. Can this be corrected to

    .... by 3 plus phi where phi = 0.61833989.....
    Posted by Josh Reid on January 14, 2008 8:43 PM
    Report this comment

    The only real critisism of the papaer is the lack of acknowledgement of previous work which must have influenced or at least been part of the reason Lisi carried it out. However, anyone who brings ideas like this to a wider forum is only doing the world a favour. So on that point at least, well done, dude.

    I'm interested greatly in the practical aspects of this. I mean really useful physics that will let us explore more of the universe. I mean it's so frustrating that we can't even get into high earth orbit without all that buggering around with rockets. At least give us carbon nano-cable and an orbital elevator - better still let's have practical anti-gravity. It's all well and good having pretty math if it doesn't yield anything tangiable. Otherwise, you might as well believe in the Bible, pixies, leprechauns or whatever else you like and assign M-theory to the same rank as a religion or fantasy.
    Posted by Richard While-Cooper on January 14, 2008 3:23 PM
    Report this comment

    Dan Winter�s comments (posted Dec. 31, 2007) are only marginally right. Dan is of course well versed in many fields and cannot be taken lightly but Lissi was not only inspired by El Naschie�s work on the Golden mean (link). Once the role of the Golden mean is understood, it is all there in place and Lissi must have read at least most of El Naschie�s work.

    The point is that starting from the order of E8 E8 which is given by 496 generators, El Naschie showed many years ago that the inverse electromagnetic fine structure constant is found when dividing this by 3 plus where = 0.61833989 is the Golden mean. In addition, using the exact transfinite expression El Naschie showed that the dimension of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy 548.3281572 gives that of the compactified holographic Klein modular boundary by a simple Golden mean transformation, namely (548.3281572)(0.618033989) = 338.8854383. Transferring two more times gives the inverse electroweak coupling
    (338.8854383)(0.618033989)(0.618033989) = 129.4427192 which is almost equal to the experimental volume found in CERN in Geneva for this and many other examples. Furthermore calling 496 the Bulk (or B) and knowing that all of particle physics are represented by the boundary Klein modular space, 336 + 3 = 339 degrees of freedom which he calls H, then it is children�s arithmetic to deduce the inverse electromagnetic constant 137 denoted E given that Einstein�s gravity, G, corresponds to 20 components. Using El Naschie�s notation, we could write a world formula
    B = H + G + E
    which means
    496 = 339 + 20 + 137.
    Said in another way, one can obtain any physical field from the rest by simple transformation. There is no need to insist on calling E8 E8 fundamental.

    I think it is not only very unfair but totally unprofessional not to give due credit to the work of El Naschie particularly after I spoke with a colleague who attended a presentation of El Naschie�s work last week in Trieste, Italy (Jan 7-9 link) where it seems his lecture was particularly well received. Two recent papers by El Naschie give lucid exposition of his theory:
    1. An outline for a quantum golden filed theory. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals
    (2007) doi:10.1016/j:chaos.2007.09.092 ( link).
    2. Quantum E-infinity field theoretical derivation of Newton�s gravitational constant. Int. J. of Nonlinear Sci. & Numerical Simulation, Vol. 8(4), 2007.
    Published in Israel by Freund (link) .

    Posted by Josh Reid on January 12, 2008 10:40 PM
    Report this comment

    Give Lisi a break. Doesn't he deserve some credit for his brilliance?
    Let the man enjoy his wave of popularity. Afterall, he did admit that his theory was still subject to testing with the hadron collider. This statement has been made with the knowledge that the tests would either confirm or reject his theory.

    Additionally, as "me" wrote on December 21 2007 - let's not get unrooted with science vs religion. We should all be grateful (in agreement with "me" 21/12/2007) to posess the gift of knowledge given to us by GOD himself to be able to investigate and understand our Universe - ultimately the home which he created for us and any possible other life forms before or after us.
    Posted by Marty X on January 10, 2008 11:33 AM
    Report this comment

    Interesting. Similar to my onion-model of the universe. Remove the time dimension(which I don't think exists in nature anyway) and you get a perfectly rational view of life. Chaos and all.
    Posted by Dave Coles on January 9, 2008 6:38 AM
    Report this comment

    No! No! No!

    "Bonaya Samuel's unified field theory is an attempt to to co-orelate all the physical constants."

    Correlation IS NOT CAUSALITY !!!

    This theory is a piecemeal piece of hocus-pocus much alike the squib-explosive charge detonation after-the-fact theory for the prime cause that the WTCs fell on 9-11, in contrast to the effects from the jet impacts/explosions/fires.

    Again, correlation IS NOT CAUSATION !
    Posted by Carlos Castaneda on January 9, 2008 3:47 AM
    Report this comment

    Much has been written on Theory of everything and unified field theory. Bonaya Samuel's unified field theory is an attempt to to co-orelate all the physical constants. The theory is based on relativity of electron charge and proposes an infinite ultmate velocity, generalizes Maxwell's electromagnetic wave equation to what is called the generalized Maxwell's electic wave equation, which permits light to break it's own speed limit,generalizes special relativity to permit greater than light travel without violating causality. According to the theory signals travelling at speeds greater than light can carry information.The theory establishes a relation between the universal gravitational constant and fundamental particles and electromagnetic field.I believe the theory speaks for itself.
    Samuel Bonaya Buya

    Posted by Samuel Bonaya Buya on January 7, 2008 9:30 AM
    Report this comment

    Pray, what is a dude?
    Posted by Nicholas Lee on January 5, 2008 7:18 PM
    Report this comment

    Crap IS holy!
    Looked at your paper, Lisi
    Beautiful! you are a genius!
    Inspired, Perfect!

    Science meets Religion
    Justice and Mercy shall Kiss

    Beauty is in the simplicity of complexity

    3.14 ... Star of David
    1221 ... + X
    Holy Grail

    ...Sphere of Light

    31415.. Alpha
    122112...1111 Omega

    2008 E8

    12/12/12 A special invitation by our Mother

    12/21/12 11:11
    Era of Peace

    Genesis Chapter 3:14-15
    Exodus Chapter 3:14-15 I AM WHO AM
    Ephesians 3:14-21 Expanse of God's Love
    Revelations Chapter 12:21
    "A Woman with 12 stars above her head and the moon under her feet"

    Revelations Chapter 21 The End

    John 5:15 "And if we know that he listens to whatever we ask him, we already possess whatever we have asked of him"
    I ask that everyone should be saved, that no one will be "left behind"

    5 more years!
    Do not be afraid!
    Posted by jmjhope on January 5, 2008 11:36 AM
    Report this comment

    No! No! No!

    2 new dimensions
    2 reflections

    64 State Functions
    32 corollaries

    2 new fields of mathematics

    Time - State - Space - Mass Transfer

    -- maybe in your lifetime...maybe

    Posted by Carlos Castaneda on January 5, 2008 9:56 AM
    Report this comment

    6 x 9 = 54 or is it me?

    (I thought 7 x 6 = 42)
    Posted by Pavlos on January 5, 2008 3:36 AM
    Report this comment

    Does anyone know how long NOW or the the present lasts? Is it the Planc length of time? Is this what a brane is?
    Is the present like the formation of a crystal into its surrounds? The present's surrounds being that of the future. The crystal's that of space or salty water if your a salt crystal.

    Does anything exist either side of the present? Is it just a void or more branes?
    Answers on a post. This post preferably.
    Posted by Al on January 4, 2008 3:09 PM
    Report this comment

    I read what Dr Lisi wrote in his paper titled "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything". In my opinion, his work is mainly a repetition of the pioneering work of the Egyptian-born physicist M.S El -Naschie.

    El Naschie proposed for the first time the wide use of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy in high energy physics. He deduced the value of the inverse fine structure constant using the sum of the E-series hierarchy. He also used the exceptional Lie groups to calculate the number and masses of elementary particles of the standard model. His fantastic results are summarized in his paper titled "from E-eight to E-infinity". In this paper El Naschie shows, for the first time, his views for the exceptional Lie group E-eight and how this group contains the other gauge groups that describe the standard model. He utilized the connection between E-eight to his Cantorian space time theory which is also called "E-infinity theory" to describe the unification of all fundamental interactions. Using this theory he gave a rigorous proof of quarks confinement, corrected some errors in the work on super symmetric grand unification and derived for the first time Newton�s gravitational constant.

    I cannot believe that Dr Lisi did not see El Naschie�s work especially because all of El Naschie�s papers are available on the internet and it is logical for anyone working in this area to first make a survey of all the work already published. In addition, the only Journal article which Dr. Lisi has written is co-authored by Prof. H. Abarbanel who is a well- known nonlinear dynamics and deterministic chaos expert familiar with El Naschie�s work, old or new.

    I regret to say that the first name and nationality of Prof. El Naschie may have played a role in omitting to give him credit for his work.

    Posted by d.moffett on January 3, 2008 9:35 PM
    Report this comment

    Personally, I think this is fantastically interesting. I'm just a high school student, and I wish I could understand more of both the physics and mathematics involved, but I definitely hope to follow this story. As far as the history of E8 goes, I wish I could understand more of the "controversy" too so that I could have a credible opinion. As a last word though, the nobel prize is an extremely prestigious award, and they have plenty of experience in who they give it to, I'm sure the recipient will deserve it. And as for 2012, well, we'll see won't we, but lets not forget Y2K.
    Posted by Eamon on January 3, 2008 3:34 AM
    Report this comment

    I think that Dr Bund of the Centre Universale Nouvelles Enterprises in Geneva published on this theory last June.
    Posted by Cumu on January 2, 2008 7:30 AM
    Report this comment

    'Spirograph' indeed? -However, if we consider that each rectangle in this 248 point model, could (eventually-it used to be slow but is much improved now) be run through the famous 'MoldFlow' mesh generator; this would result in billions of triangles. (4 per rectangle, (=12 'nodes'), at its crudest and simplest extrapolation). This would obviously create a very interesting model. -"Nothing to laugh about?" -as the Germans would say).
    Using the massive plastics materials database, (represented by multipoint variable numerical data), we could then create anyone on the planet at random, purely by choosing a 'node' at any point within the model, as the injection point? -The next incredible iteration would be a finite link with genetic data, from that 'purely basic' and intermediate result? [Effectively we could produce anyone on the planet in a variety of plastic materials, until we found one which we all liked, then elect it as Prime Minister]. -Lets face it, anything would be better than the choices we have now? Let's get that ion beam gun fired-up and rolling! (Which already makes mild steel more wear resistant via 'ion implantation,' -by x 50!) Before we all become extremely worn out?
    Posted by Edward Ashley-Smith on January 1, 2008 11:34 AM
    Report this comment

    Lisi's model inspired by EL Naschie's work on Golden Mean ratio.. is just an indirect way to learn that..

    Golden Ratio Based Fractal Self Similarity
    is the Electrical Cause of Gravity



    Posted by dan winter on December 31, 2007 5:21 AM
    Report this comment

    What does this new theory have to say about magnetic monopoles? Does it give more complete symmetry to the Maxwell equations?
    Posted by Brian Karas on December 30, 2007 6:14 AM
    Report this comment

    I found some amusing similarities, analogies and dualities between the two apparent amateurs of theoretical physics, Garrett Lisi and Mohamed El Naschie. Both seem to share the same starting point with Werner Heisenberg, namely fluid turbulence. Both have found nonlinear dynamics and chaos to be useful tools in solving the mysteries of turbulence. Lisi worked with Abarbanel of University of California at La Jolla, USA. El Naschie worked with T. Kapitaniak in Lodz, Poland and Nobel laureate Ilya Prigogine, Brussels, Belgium. Duality comes from Lisi being a penniless surfer riding the waves in Hawaii while El Naschie is an Alpinian skier and comes from an extremely rich background and is said to have been a multi-millionaire at the age of 30. The two guys seem to be easy going and pleasant � at least that is what comes across from the interviews of Lisi and the Wikipedia profile of El Naschie (link) and his German based homepage (link).
    On the other hand, what gives us here reason to reflect on the current way of doing research is that both men may be accurately described as amateurs with theoretical physics being just a hobby. Could it be that only such people, outside the main stream and the rat race for position and money, are the only ones capable of finding something fundamental and totally new. We should all reflect on this point.

    Posted by Jo Greenburg on December 23, 2007 10:08 PM
    Report this comment

    I read what Dr Lisi wrote in his paper titled "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything". In my opinion, his work is mainly a repetition of the pioneering work of the Egyptian-born physicist M.S El -Naschie.

    El Naschie proposed for the first time the wide use of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy in high energy physics. He deduced the value of the inverse fine structure constant using the sum of the E-series hierarchy. He also used the exceptional Lie groups to calculate the number and masses of elementary particles of the standard model. His fantastic results are summarized in his paper titled "from E-eight to E-infinity". In this paper El Naschie shows, for the first time, his views for the exceptional Lie group E-eight and how this group contains the other gauge groups that describe the standard model. He utilized the connection between E-eight to his Cantorian space time theory which is also called "E-infinity theory" to describe the unification of all fundamental interactions. Using this theory he gave a rigorous proof of quarks confinement, corrected some errors in the work on super symmetric grand unification and derived for the first time Newton�s gravitational constant.

    I cannot believe that Dr Lisi did not see El Naschie�s work especially because all of El Naschie�s papers are available on the internet and it is logical for anyone working in this area to first make a survey of all the work already published. In addition, the only Journal article which Dr. Lisi has written is co-authored by Prof. H. Abarbanel who is a well- known nonlinear dynamics and deterministic chaos expert familiar with El Naschie�s work, old or new.

    I regret to say that the first name and nationality of Prof. El Naschie may have played a role in omitting to give him credit for his work.

    Posted by d. moffett on December 23, 2007 6:59 PM
    Report this comment

    If you cannot use your real name for what you are posting, you should not post it.
    Posted by Steve Brandon on December 23, 2007 4:45 PM
    Report this comment

    Here is another theory based upon all matter being comprised of equal size, charge-less spheres. As well, there are speculations as to space being mathematically comprised of fixed points and other related concerns. I would also point you to an original poem called Surfer Dudes. Here is the url for the poem and one for my postulates...comments appreciated...
    My mathematical efforts can be seen too here -
    Posted by steve waterman on December 22, 2007 1:13 PM
    Report this comment

    I just stumbled upon this article today and am very excited to see discussion has continued since its publication! This is not something that should be ignored - even if it is not accurate, it is so exciting that such interest and progress is being made!

    And for those of you who wonder if we have abandoned God, fear not. God would not have given us the ability to understand these things if He did not want us to. It is the same reason He allowed us to evolve and become who we are. God and Science do not need to be separate. It's as if God is allowing us to see our baby book - to look back and see how we came to be.

    It's a miracle that we are capable of functioning such levels, and we should be grateful that He allows us this privilege... we should not be cursing down those who explore science. Science would not exist if God did not want it to. And Science does not disprove anything about God. The Bible is not wrong - but one must remember that it was written at a time when Quantum Physics would have made no sense to man, so it was written in terms he would understand, so he would be able to believe. And now, thousands of years later, we CAN understand these things. So why is it so unforgivable that we attempt to?

    So many people are turning away from God because the explanations offered by the ancient book do not sufficiently answer their questions. If you had a question about your computer, would you read an instruction manual written in 1800? There was simply no KNOWLEDGE to explain it then - so it was not written about!

    Rather than forcing Science and God to remain separate, we should be embracing the fact that God has allowed us to understand these things and to gain new knowledge... it does not mean the universe was NOT the work of God - it just means it was created a little differently than we once understood.

    Don't be afraid of it - it's miraculous.
    Posted by me on December 21, 2007 7:02 PM
    Report this comment

    Well, Dr. Lisi... you're close. You're closer even than El Naschie was and he was the closest before you.

    But, you're going to need to start thinking in even simpler terms... fewer dimensions.

    Greater progress will be made with the accelerator/collider and confirmed with the telescope.

    Harken back to the Buckyball. Hint: Only 5 gaps, not 20... and 2 non-appearances.

    I'll give you the answer on Dec. 22, 2012.

    p.s. Yes. They will find wormholes and a few more particles.

    p.p.s You can't travel through time, but you can "see" through time. Unfortunately, that can only be accomplished in one direction: backwards.

    Good Luck.
    Posted by theshading on December 21, 2007 3:39 AM
    Report this comment

    Following P. Gerard�s comments posted a day ago on December 19, I decided to find out about this Mohamed El Naschie. I searched for him on SPIRES Web Page of Stanford Slack (see: spires@slac.stanford.edu);
    (link). I found a staggering 106 papers by him - at least 25 of them are related to Exceptional Lie groups, quarks confinement and quantum field theory. The son of a gun has cleaned up the site. He started from the platonic bodies with golden mean proportions and worked his way via Coexter�s 120-cells and 600 cell polytops to a golden mean constructed exceptional Lie group hierarchies. Subsequently, I was amazed that he made predictions for a total number of missing elementary particles: 9 or 12 or 20 or 24 depending on various increasing energy scales. These particles are over and above the ones already found in the standard model.

    It seems that Garrett Lisi�s colleagues have triggered a tidal wave.

    Posted by Michael Poulter on December 20, 2007 11:27 PM
    Report this comment

    After reading this artical I got a flash and was about to post the answer to everything was "42". Then I decided to do a page search and found about 100 references to "42" and decided my pitiful attempt at humor to be rather, well, pitiful. Lesson to self and everyone reading this. Nobody likes a wise guy. I will follow this story with great interest.
    Posted by Larry Brewer on December 20, 2007 10:59 PM
    Report this comment

    i like the beach too
    Posted by ashton on December 20, 2007 5:45 AM
    Report this comment

    Doesn't anyone believe in God anymore? What has happened to our nation? The explanation is SIMPLE! It's all written in the Bible. 191 Prophecies fulfilled and yet no one believes a word of them. What's wrong with you morons? Have a little Faith in your Father eh?
    Posted by Kellie on December 20, 2007 4:18 AM
    Report this comment

    Yet again, it seems, someone without formal afiliation succeeds where academics have failed. Perhaps that alone has something to teach us about science as a whole.

    Argument over this is futile.

    Results from the Large Hadron Collider will either confirm or refute his thesis, spectacularly, as he himself states at the end of his paper.

    But the sheer elegance of its synchrony with E8 is very encouraging.

    As to its usefulness - I'm old enough to remember when people said quantum theory was a pointless mental exercise ... but it gave us lasers, now used everywhere from CD players to supermarket check-outs.

    This could be very good news indeed.
    Posted by jim davies on December 20, 2007 2:11 AM
    Report this comment

    If Dr. Lisi is working on unified theory AND has to find a place to stay at night, what's his girlfriend doing? Working out the geoengineering solution to global sea level rise? If nothing that intimidating, I need to get Dr. Finkelstein to introduce me to this guy. I'm a pretty awful physicist, but I build a great house!
    Posted by Barbara on December 20, 2007 1:47 AM
    Report this comment

    Regarding the Garrett Lisi E8 unification theory and the Lisi-Elnaschie controversy, I would like to sum up the situation as follows:

    1. Lisi�s work has been recognized by many leading scientists notably Lee Smolin as a milestone in theoretical physics (see for instance article by Roger Highfield at http: www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=earth/2007/11/14scisurf114.xml)
    2. Various scientists have proposed that Lisi�s work deserves the Nobel prize in Physics. (see for instance comment posted by Thomas Ledbetter of November 15 (2007) at link)
    3. Several theoretical physicists and scholars have pointed out that the Egyptian scientist, M. S. El Naschie reached the same conclusions of Lisi some 14 years earlier and that M. Green of Cambridge, UK and J. Schwarz of Caltech, USA and E. Witten of Princeton, USA were the first to discover E8 for high energy physics. (see S. Traener comments on November 23 (2007) and Maurice Meyers November 19 (2007)link)
    4. Few commentators have expressed deep concern about Lisi�s work. The fact that he did not publish any of his work in any scientific journal and overlooked previous works was found to be unacceptable practice. Some said Lisi�s work is a clever reformulation of El Naschie�s work published much earlier in Elsevier Journal: Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (see comments by Edmund Ralph posted December 9 (2007)) link.
    5. Some have proposed that Lisi, Green, Schwarz and El Naschie should share a Nobel prize in physics and warned against turning the issue to one of racial and religious discrimination involving Arabs, Moslems and Jews which is totally foreign to science. (see comments by Peter Hartley on December 10(2007))

    In my opinion, what we need now is a sober evolution of the work of Lisi, El Naschie and the super strings and loop quantum mechanics school. Many ask why E8? The answer is simple: E8 is the largest exceptional Lie group that can exist. Some ask where is the natural randomness? The answer is simple. It is in the transfinite version of E8 as shown in the work of Ji Huan He, Marek Crnjac and Gerardo Iovane and all are published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (Elsevier, a leading nonlinear dynamics journal with the highest impact factor in the field also found on their website Sciencedirect.com).

    It is clearly not sufficient to just take E8. We must take a transfinite, chaotic and random E8 exceptional Lie group shadowing the crisp classical E8 of Green, Schwarz and Witten as shown by El Naschie. In this context, we should not forget the pioneering work of G. �tHooft on deterministic quantum mechanics.

    We appreciate the many witty remarks posted on this site but the subject is serious and needs serious consideration. As a first step may I draw attention to the following excellent readings namely two papers by G. �tHooft and M. S. El Naschie published by the American Institute of Physics: �Frontiers of Fundamental Physics� (2006) ISBN 978-0-7354-0412-0, pages 56-66 and pages 84-102. In addition, the extension of E8 to a transfinite E8 is given in �An outline for a quantum golden field theory�, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (2007) published by Elsevier as well as �Towards a quantum golden field theory� in International Journal of Nonlinear Sciences and Numerical Simulation, 8(4) pp. 477-482 (2007) published by Freund in Israel.

    Posted by P. Gerard on December 19, 2007 10:32 PM
    Report this comment

    There is a guy who's work even predates your Moslem scholar. He claims to have been a researcher at Los Alamos many years ago.


    Looks like he noticed something about this math, but even the Dr Finklestein mentioned in the article wouldn't support his work a decade ago.
    Posted by Hank on December 19, 2007 4:41 AM
    Report this comment

    The waves are the thing. Whether the Alfa and Omega walked them on Galilee or you just ride them off Hawaii.
    Posted by Jonathan on December 18, 2007 10:42 AM
    Report this comment

    Right or wrong, Lisi is challenging accredited physicists to think again. The community has everything to gain and nothing to lose by Lisi's theories.
    Posted by MK on December 16, 2007 8:39 PM
    Report this comment

    Mr Lisi if you are a fraud then your a good one. Surf the wave.

    To all the contributers: Thanks for the entertainment, the worthy, the fart analysts and the handbag designers and I personaly think its OK to be bald and surf.

    Bless you all and Merry Christmas
    Posted by Philip Palij on December 14, 2007 8:54 PM
    Report this comment

    Most of these comments are silly.
    Posted by nancy on December 14, 2007 2:44 PM
    Report this comment

    If Dr. Lisi is skiing down a slope in a symmetry fashion, is he following one of the E8's paths?
    Posted by A. Einstein on December 13, 2007 9:30 PM
    Report this comment

    Sure! But where is Waldo in all of this???
    Posted by Isaiah on December 13, 2007 9:15 PM
    Report this comment

    Looks like Lisi likes to take acid and play with his Spirograph set!!!

    If you take wheel #D4 using a blue pen; and take wheel # B8 using a red pen.... You can see A. Einstein giving you the bird!!!
    Posted by David on December 13, 2007 3:50 PM
    Report this comment

    "...but I am reminded of this quote by H.L. Menchen: "For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong". Posted by griga262

    My response to this is a quote by Albert Einstein. "When the solution is simple, God is answering."

    If only we could put Mencken and Einstein in a peanut butter jar and make them fight like ants...
    Posted by Rockie the Bastard on December 12, 2007 10:14 PM
    Report this comment

    I did this with my spirograph when i was 6
    Posted by Flipper_Al on December 12, 2007 1:42 PM
    Report this comment

    I make it 43.
    Posted by Al on December 12, 2007 3:31 AM
    Report this comment

    What does it predict? Does it predict the ionization energies of helium, lithium, etc? Does it predict the excited states of helium, lithium, etc? Does it predict particle masses from physical laws? It is yet another purely mathematical attempt to curve-fit the universe with nice math-- without any kind of predictive or technological value whatsoever.
    Posted by Brett on December 12, 2007 1:41 AM
    Report this comment

    I always thought the Periodic Table was shaped like a piece of an extra-dimensional mandala...
    Posted by Darth Brooks on December 11, 2007 8:51 PM
    Report this comment

    It is not uncommon that a novice could overlook the contributions of others as is the case with Garrett Lisi�s paper �An exceptionally simple Theory of Everything.� However, how could a connoisseur of the literature; a past political left wing activist and a leading quantum gravity specialist such as Lee Smolin not know the various fundamental papers published on the pivotal role played by the E8 and E6 exceptional Lie groups in particle physics and the theory of unification. The beautiful new Book of the Beckers and J. H. Schawrz �String theory and M theory� goes even few steps further and proposes the equivalent of SO(10) and SU(5) with E5 and E4 . A recent paper published in Elsevier Science Direct Journal called Chaos, Solitons and Fractals, an interdisciplinary Journal for Nonlinear Dynamics, Quantum and Nanotechnology entitled �From E8 to E-Infinity� wraps it all up. In this paper, an Egyptian, M. S. El Naschie shows an incredible connection between the total sum of all exceptional Lie symmetry groups dimension 548 and the inverse electromagnetic fine structure coupling 548/4 = 137. In addition, the Egyptian concluded, following earlier work by Freeman Dyson, that the maximum number of elementary particles at the energy scale of the standard model is a maximum of half the inverse value. That means approximately 69 particles. The theory of E-Infinity is at least 15 years old and it is based on a new irrational quasi-binary system utilizing the miraculous properties of the golden mean and the Fibonacci numbers within this system (2)(248) = 496 of E8 E8 is reduced to 496-(0.18033989) = 495.9674775 while 137 is increased to 137.08203932. These small differences make a big difference and are behind the success of E-Infinity theory. Those interested in the nitty-gritty should read issue 2 of volume 35 of Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (January 2008). Particularly, the aforementioned paper from E-eight to E-Infinity pp. 285-290 of the same issue is of special interest. At least the abstract if not the entire paper maybe found on Science Direct www.sciencedirect.com.

    I think those responsible for this omission, owe the concerned authors an apology. It is regrettable that many emails sent to the �New Scientist� which featured Lisi�s paper and Lee Smolin�s comments, remain unanswered. Honesty is the grain of science and it would be a great calamity if we lose this as well.

    Posted by M. Gribbens on December 11, 2007 8:04 PM
    Report this comment

    The Lisi-El Naschie controversy is highly interesting for multiple reasons. Let me first address the non-scientific facet. Garrett Lisi represents the all American Guy; athletic, optimistic, courageous and innocent. Mohamed Saladin El Naschie on the other hand is a shining example of an enlightened, cosmopolitan Arab Moslem and scholar. It would be immensely regrettable if the background of both men is misused by certain forces to create a political controversy with racial or a religious accent out of what is squarely scientific issues. Lisi has undoubtedly grossly overlooked El Naschie�s work on E8 unification which preceded Lisi�s work by at least a decade. However Lisi�s theory is formulated in the language of loop quantum mechanics while El Naschie�s relies heavily on the terminology and the methodology of nonlinear dynamics, chaos and heterotic super strings.

    Some people have recently suggested that Garret Lisi should be awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics. I think this would be going too far. Prof. Green and Prof. Schwarz are the first to discover E8 for physics. El Naschie perfected the procedure and used an exceptional Lie symmetry group hierarchy involving all exceptional and unification groups. El Naschie also demonstrated that the dimension of the E-line symmetry groups gauged in mega electron volts and gega electron volts gives the mass of various mesons and that way established completely new connections to the problem of the mass spectrum of high energy elementary particles. A by product of El Naschie�s theory is a neat mathematical proof of quarks confinement.

    I think that if a Nobel prize is seriously considered then Michael Green, John Schwarz, Mohamed El Naschie and Garrett Lisi must all share it.

    Posted by Peter Hartley on December 10, 2007 10:00 AM
    Report this comment

    "Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth. "

    And now, perhaps with this theory, we'll figure out HOW he did it!

    Posted by Chuck on December 9, 2007 9:21 PM
    Report this comment

    Referring to the comment by S. Traener on Nov 23, I did some googling for the names mentioned combined with the phrase "
    Exceptional Lie groups in physics". The first page of the search results always displayed one or two titles by one whose name in the comment by Traener. That is El Naschie. Two more new names appeared. Unfortunately, I have no access to the hosting journals, but a comparison of the key words of each with that in Lisi's paper on the arXive indicate a remarkable overlap. Moreover, these two matches claim very similar results to lisi's. I'm working on trying to get the full text from a friend in the academia to be able to do more precise comparison. Yet I think we owe Dr Lisi an explanation why didn't he mention all the others who did similar work using the E8, particularly El Naschie?! I belive he, as a professional, should have access to such journals and should have done enough literature survey before publishing.
    Posted by Edmund Ralph on December 9, 2007 7:05 PM
    Report this comment

    Whatever theory is found to unify the forces we
    know about in Physics is bound to incorporate
    symmetry. Physical events such as annihilation
    and pairs production depend on symmetry.
    Subatomic particles are defined by their spin and
    relation to other particles. This all strongly
    suggests a greater symmetry of which we are not
    aware. I like the fact that Dr. Surfer Dude's
    theory agrees with the observable and doesn't
    seem to contradict any of the accepted
    fundamentals of Physics. Is he right ? Who
    knows. It is certainly beyond my present
    knowledge to determine. I would like to point
    out however that those who criticize solutions
    that seem simple should look at the strange
    mathematical symmetries between the work of
    Maxwell, Plank and Einstein. Although some of
    the math is anything but simple, many of the
    equations produced are extremely simple. E=hf.
    E=mc2. I would say this E8 theory has a much
    better chance of being at least partially correct
    than String Theory which is so much science
    Posted by N.G. on December 9, 2007 1:43 PM
    Report this comment

    <<<<"Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth. ">>

    Are you kidding. Where is the proof in your argument, quoting a document that is hundreds of years old? It's like saying fire must be the true god because it was worshiped by cave men before science came along. Don't denounce something just because your mind is too closed to accept it. This is a result of the brainwashing done to you by your religious institution. Science will continue on searching for the truth despite your inability to even begin to comprehend it.>>

    I understand you objection to what was said, but that doesn't mean you have to insult their intelligence. I agree with you a bit, but everyone has their own theories. There is absolutely no way we can disprove that there is a higher power, so there is no point in condemning those who do believe in a higher power.
    Posted by Brendan George on December 8, 2007 6:32 PM
    Report this comment

    Great news ! But I don't understand whay God is attracted to 248 ?
    Posted by Moshe Klein on December 7, 2007 7:55 AM
    Report this comment

    Did you just steal quotes from the New Scientist (link) article? Perhaps its a British journalism thing...
    Posted by Jessica on December 7, 2007 5:08 AM
    Report this comment

    Every time Pluto(I dont care if they dont think its a planet anymore) crosses the Galactic axis or node the world view changes , is this the idea that will do it...............the time is ripe
    Posted by Cisco on December 7, 2007 2:56 AM
    Report this comment

    <<"Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth. ">>

    Are you kidding. Where is the proof in your argument, quoting a document that is hundreds of years old? It's like saying fire must be the true god because it was worshiped by cave men before science came along. Don't denounce something just because your mind is too closed to accept it. This is a result of the brainwashing done to you by your religious institution. Science will continue on searching for the truth despite your inability to even begin to comprehend it.
    Posted by Truth is like ripping off a band-aid on December 7, 2007 1:12 AM
    Report this comment

    Posted by john dougal on December 7, 2007 1:04 AM
    Report this comment

    God bless Albert Hoffman!
    Posted by The Rob on December 6, 2007 8:25 AM
    Report this comment

    Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth.
    Posted by Ward. (William) on December 5, 2007 11:18 PM
    Report this comment

    The lack of practice degraded my physics and mathematics skills and I surely would need a lot of side reading to fill the gaps and understand everything, still I have the impression this theory wont work :(. I am saying this only to be able to point out later - "I said so". However, I am almost sure that a layman will come with the right ideas one day. I doubt those "right" ideas would be able to carry a caption containing words like "unified" or "universal" meaning I am standing with those who consider the universe universally subjective at any level and the "objective" truth described by any theory is a projection that needs not be consistent at all. Even if you call this projection a contract (as some prefer) it still does not need to be universal or consistent or at least that is something hard to proove without too much assumptions... It is difficult to bind this to math models (I know some people who did a little bit about that, but not enough), still math or no math the implications of such setup are too crazy for the deterministic majority. The scientific community only becomes more conservative in time (one of my reasons to abandon physics after the university) and despite all the hints for non-deteministic universe in the ruling theories most scientists still have a mind of a person who looks for a nice classic explanation and feel "of it all".
    Posted by Michael on December 5, 2007 9:56 PM
    Report this comment

    Reminds me of Kepler's nested regular polyhedra theory.
    He saw a beautiful geometry, and hoped planetary orbits would be based on it. It was a beautiful idea, but it did not work out in this case.

    Here we have the same thing, at a more abstract and fundamental level. Also a beautiful idea, certainly worth investigating. Who knows what truths lies in there...

    Kepler had drawn inscribed and circumscribed circles to an equilateral triangle. He realized that the ratio of the radii was the same as the ratio of orbital radii of Saturn and Jupiter.
    Kepler believed there had to be meaning behind such a result. Kepler argued that given that Saturn and Jupiter were the first two planets of the Solar System and that the triangle was the simplest polygon, then the ratio of the orbital radii of Jupiter and Mars should be in the same ratio as the radii of the circumscribed and inscribed circles to a square, the second simplest polygon. The orbital radii of Mars and Earth, by the same measure, should be related to the circumscribed and inscribed circles to a pentagram. Kepler's reasoning was logical enough but false in reality. He then turned to a 3D nested polyhedra model which he described in the Mysterium Cosmographicum.

    Posted by Pierre Charland on December 5, 2007 1:03 PM
    Report this comment

    very interesting every
    Posted by ultrainternet on December 5, 2007 12:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Hey wrangerboy,

    Thats the best comment on here - worthy of the much esteemed publication 'Vis'

    Mark Jordan (47)
    Posted by mark jordan on December 5, 2007 2:36 AM
    Report this comment

    I am not smart enough to comment on the theory itself. Yes, it would be nice to have a theory where everything is simple, but I am reminded of this quote by H.L. Menchen: "For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong".
    Posted by griga262 on December 4, 2007 6:04 PM
    Report this comment

    The angle of the dangle is ultimately determined by the heat of the meat
    Posted by Aladdin Sarsippius on December 4, 2007 5:38 PM
    Report this comment

    wow. None of this makes any sense to me. At all. I
    need some acid.
    Posted by Daniel on December 4, 2007 5:37 PM
    Report this comment

    Goodness, a new unified theory, from a surfer dude, sorry, Dr Surfer Dude. I have to say, I find this all a little depressing.
    He's figured out the interaction between weak and strong forces, postulated a solution to the old "how many lick does it take to get to the secret center of a hydrogen atom" conundrum and can test all this (assuming someone will give him the keys to the super particle collider).

    Conversely I can't even figure out my cell phone bill. Based on what I've learned so far, my cellular carrier seems to calculate their invoice using a variation of string theory since no rational test can prove or disprove the amount listed on the bottom of the bill is actually what I owe them. I think there might even be a line item for inter-dimensional roaming charges, I'm not really certain.
    I can only assume Dr Surfer Dude doesn't have a cell phone, or if he does, he has an E-8 related cellular theory he whips out every time his carrier starts stacking zeros at the end of his bill.
    Is he right? I don't know, I'm basically a retard. I find the very idea that I might have an opinion about quantum physics to be insanely hilarious. However, the thought that someone might be reading the responses hoping to find some sort of validation for the theory is the only thing keeping me going, for though I might be thick as a brick, I'm not quite that thick.
    Well, big smoochies from the far side of the puddle, we're keeping your spot warm in case you guys decide you want back into the Iraqi civil war, and keep speaking English, it's the only thing keeping the 82nd airborne out of Piccadilly circus (your fault, you had to go and find oil under the North Sea.)
    Posted by Dijetlo on December 4, 2007 3:38 AM
    Report this comment

    Mr Lisi has apparently hit on a better way to fit the various fields into a unified theory. Just the fact that it is simple convinces me that he must be onto something. Add to that the beautiful symmetry, and I'm hooked. The apparent complexity of the universe is only an illusion, brought on by scale and viewpoint. If you look at a mess of stars, they seem random, but, on further examination, there is a nice rotating spiral galaxy.
    Surfer dude no doubt got some inspiration by his first-hand experiencing of wave theory.
    As Buckminster Fuller wrote, we are on the edge between utopia and oblivion.
    By the way, the thirty-sided polygon that's supposed to represent E8 by its mutual interconnections between points might be better expressed by the interconnections between the thirty midpoints of the edges of an icosahedron.
    Posted by Mike Regan on December 4, 2007 1:05 AM
    Report this comment

    The diagram is made of straight lines. Spirographs
    drew curves.
    Posted by Herb Patterson on December 3, 2007 7:18 AM
    Report this comment

    I was looking at the E8,trying to understand it's
    deeper meaning and after about a minute my gaze
    began to relax and then - woah dude! - I 3D image
    of Albert Einstein came into view. Excellent!
    Posted by Jason Read on December 2, 2007 10:54 AM
    Report this comment

    Is it possible that as mankind embarks on what maybe our last time on earth (one possible outcome of the imbalance we have caused in nature)the understanding of all creation wil be given to man? Does that mean we could figure out how to "disable plutonium"? I joke but if this thing pans out and they find these particles, then they can figure out how to use this knowlegde to help save the planet maybe? That would be a much better story than " Mankind discovers secret of creation / but dies off thirty years later / twenty years earlier than prdicted by scientists".
    I am a musician (soon to have music on myspace) and ever since I was a child I have always felt that God was in everything, all the time, constantly, without end or beginning, including inside of me... and all of you.
    What is looking out of me at you... is fundamentally the same "thing that is looking out of you (literally) at me.
    Call it an awareness, call it a soul, call it a divine feeling, call it perfect art, call it perfect harmony, call it e8... anyway you slice it is the creator.
    Yes Santa... there is a Creator.
    Ask yourself this one very simple, simple, question? Why is everything in this creation our universe, without exception, complete and perfect art and majesty. Why is everything in creation so blindingly beautifull? Maybe because there is something beyond all description (until now) that is powering the whole of it?
    I guess I am lucky because in my life I have come to appreciate every moment. Life is so precious. I only hope that some good comes of this as we are about to go blindly marching off the cliff of our own greed and arrogance into what will surley be a very strange future, as nature works out what to do about us.
    Maybe nature will put us on the extinction list.
    Have a good day, egh?

    Posted by Robert Driscoll on December 2, 2007 7:54 AM
    Report this comment


    No No No I found stop to all,the theory of spherization all goes to the spherization,yes EUREKA from Belgium .
    The Theory of Spherization..
    If you want come on XING plateforme .I found its'not a joke .

    Posted by DUFOURNY STEVE on December 1, 2007 7:24 PM
    Report this comment

    Stop calling us "Surfer Dudes".
    Posted by Chris M. on December 1, 2007 7:23 PM
    Report this comment

    The doctor should reference QGGM for QCD (Pronounced Quiggem for Qui-kid) Theory at the USPTO, as Technical Gravity.

    The Doctor's model is good but without integration into mine, he's missing the point and it does not qualify as a Unifying Theory. Though it would make a nice china pattern.

    Though incomplete in [process of time, ref:Technical Gravity] it is a profound thought and a beautiful observation by nature. I applaud this.

    It is not surprising at all that he surfs, nature repeats her patterns most beautifully on the beach.

    This is why I live near the Beach in St. Augustine, Florida. The Doctor can stop to discuss the two theories and their portions of agreement - when ever he likes the waves.

    There is a nice winter break out here.
    Posted by James Reginald Harris, Jr. on December 1, 2007 11:46 AM
    Report this comment

    X + Y = 7. Find Y
    It's here.

    -Brit Surf Dude
    Posted by Knightrider on November 30, 2007 9:51 PM
    Report this comment

    Posted by Ron Pavellas on November 30, 2007 4:34 PM
    Report this comment

    Well,I will have to read through everything,but this is most fascinating! Of course I'm not versed in physics,but I will comment:

    Mankind can do two things:leave things as they are,or go deep into the meaning and wonder of creation and journey into the origins of the cosmos and everything? Well,looks like we have already started this path and you can ask"are we any better off?"Perhaps we won't know for sure until the very end of "everything".If this was to occur and our scientist say it will... Of course we may help the end along even faster...

    For the ones who believe in a Creator or God,you might say to try and achieve the root meaning of "everything" and the how and why's is like trying to figure out God and his workings and reasoning.for the ones of certain faiths,they have already worked it out for themselves and that's because they believe what was given to them through "faith",which needs no explanation,otherwise it would no be called faith.

    So,would we be better off knowing this knowledge? How would we use it? Have we used other discoveries well? Have we contributed to a world which is governed by power and control to fight over these amazing enlightenments and workings that man with science has harnessed and achieved?

    So I put to you,have we created our own reality? Or...is this something which was brought about by God? For if by God,then as you must believe,it will come about and be so.Or,do we just tap into what is aready there?

    And,can this all be measured and explained by mathamatical formulas? I sometimes feel it cannot.Math,an invention by man is a working or thinking of our reality.Just as time is another invention used for man's purpose in his reality.

    I feel perhaps much can be explained in the consciousness of man himself and in knowing more and being able to tap into our own source,we may also be able to connect with other realities,dimensions and possibly the Creator or Creation itslf.

    I feel there is a connection to consciousness and creation.And possibly as we create,there is one who has already created and is the greater Creator and we may serve as proof to this fact.

    If there is such a program I would like to submit drawings of detailed,clear and precise geometric symbols given to me in visions a few years back.They were amazing.All are different and one resembles the above picture.There as an awareness I felt and some were,how can I say...moving and alive.Many had dimension.This is unlike nothing else I've seen,but I liken most to the crop circles.

    I feel man will be able to time travel.In dreams I have traveled and spoken to others.They have traveled to me.It may be that we are the ones that some see as the aliens.Possibly we will find out.

    Remember,a dream is only as real as we believe it to be.Intuition is only a thought until it is acted upon.And a dream becomes a reality when it is put into action.

    Best wishes,

    Posted by Georgtte Salavec on November 30, 2007 7:25 AM
    Report this comment

    Each wave function collapse brings about a new parallel universe?? or the two universes already exist but we are not tied to one until the result is observed??? Am I on the right track to understanding this???
    Posted by Jasond on November 30, 2007 2:28 AM
    Report this comment

    Garret is the real deal! I spent two weeks in Tahiti surfing with him. He can make great sandwiches too!
    Posted by Kneeboarder on November 29, 2007 10:01 PM
    Report this comment

    WHOA! This is interesting. Did he really find the theory of everything?!
    Posted by J.T. on November 29, 2007 8:26 PM
    Report this comment

    I feel very much concerned by all this stuff since I am a physicist and I've left the academy since 1999. Now I am 39 and I still have fun with mathematical models. Lisi's paper is OK, except the point he does not fell self-assured about all this. Lisi's paper is OK, since it is an invitation to re-open my Georgi and work on these exceptional Lie Groups.
    Posted by Jean-Marc Robin on November 29, 2007 2:45 PM
    Report this comment

    Beautiful mandala :)
    Posted by peter on November 29, 2007 1:52 PM
    Report this comment

    I wanted to thank Roger Highfield. years ago we
    corresponded about a short article for the
    Telegraph on climate change and dinosaurs.
    Roger gave me some invaluable advice on
    popular science writing, which has been with me
    ever since, including two weeks ago when I
    handed over my finished book (published by
    Wiley in May 08) 'Geoforensics'. Thanks Roger, I'll
    send you a copy if you respond!
    Posted by Alastair Ruffell on November 29, 2007 1:37 PM
    Report this comment

    This rules. I hope this guy gets an amazing job
    from this paper.
    Posted by Mae on November 29, 2007 4:53 AM
    Report this comment

    There is a fundamental requirement, in general neglected, that any TOE must satisfy:

    A successful TOE must be able to explain the Don Borghi's experiment

    The Don Borghi's experiment can be seen in the two links bellow:



    Posted by wladimir guglinski on November 29, 2007 1:53 AM
    Report this comment

    I think my grandchildren have a toy that can draw one of those things.
    Posted by blulu301 on November 28, 2007 11:49 PM
    Report this comment

    The E8 symbol seems to be a cross between a Tibetan Mandela and a T shirt made by an acid head from a Greatful Dead concert
    Posted by Bruce on November 28, 2007 9:58 PM
    Report this comment

    This theory isn't valid. It can't explain how Fecal Transplants work. Seriously though, no math equation will ever discover WHY we all exist (if we do exist).
    Posted by Robert on November 28, 2007 9:46 PM
    Report this comment

    I think my mom used to have The E8 on our
    living room wall in the seventies...I remember A
    LOT of nails and string...and after staring at it for
    a while, other things made more sense.
    Posted by csreeves on November 28, 2007 6:36 AM
    Report this comment

    I always knew the universe was all crazy. Even before I saw this whole E8 phenom, I thought of the universe as a person eating their own ass! No, but
    with all honesty, in the universe, some objects are produced, while others are consumed. All equaling out in the end. Whether the reaction produces actual matter or a form of anti-matter, waste of some shape or form(or idea...) is produced.
    Posted by El Grosso on November 28, 2007 5:46 AM
    Report this comment

    Everything shines and sounds, echoes and aches with a certain constellation of truth, a visceral truth that is immediately apprehended from one���s past encounters, call it experience, that is, one���s stored memories and an actual encounter with ones��� sense memories and concurrent with�� the object of stimulation that triggers a link of understanding, an apparent match or pattern, a collapse into unity; that is, the truth sensing organ, developed from mind, mind, developed from habit, habit, developed from sense, sense, collected around systems of self, self, dynamically folding and unfolding, constrained by resource and resource recognition, limited by universal constants, finite and irreducible, produces a certain regularity and since, your systems of systems are of the same sort, which is the key, the transport tangent, that which is and that which is understood by you to be you; exchanges likes for likes, and at this tangent, this point of contact, an exchange occurs, an exchange that opens avenues, avenues of creation and transformation, avenues of dissolution and destruction, embedding and hybridizing, all happening everywhere all at once, on the thin film of reality and all of which is projected into consciousness and diffuses and dissipates into the fabric of energy, time and dimensionless space; to be distilled and rarified into your genome, codified into your tombs and treaties of thought, flittering on mimetic wings and embedding and infusing in static and dynamic nodes of intermingled harmonic modes of perpetual awareness, coalescing in a gathering space, containing only and all of the tangents, call it the tangential space of reason; and in this space of reason and existing only in this space a communication occurs, a communication that is incapable of occurring elsewhere, call it the private mind of an unapproachable intellect of unspeakable proportions; but know, it is but only one in a myriad of uniquely unfathomable beings, each of which can be ascribed a number but not understood or properly defined by any mere label; these numbers are used only to identify the space which separates each from the other; and it is in this negative understanding this inverse of that which is, that we push about with our words and deeds; but take pause and consider the index, the index of all those numbers, a connected space whose unified topology sublimates into a vaporous state of pure nothingness, the bedrock of existence.
    Posted by pheffler on November 27, 2007 7:30 PM
    Report this comment

    CONSCIOUSNESS awareness and the self recognized PRECEPTION of one's place in their OWN view of REALITY and how they interact within it; will determine how soon the REAL TRUTH will be revealed to them.
    Posted by RodneyB-Houston on November 27, 2007 6:22 PM
    Report this comment

    this is great, but what is beyond the graph ?
    Posted by steven bates on November 27, 2007 9:35 AM
    Report this comment

    Reminds me of the work of one Richard Buckminster Fuller.
    Posted by Arwyn on November 27, 2007 9:03 AM
    Report this comment

    Maxadolf..Thankz for commenting on my post tho I dont actually recall saying anything about glass. Anyways, the postulate was if one could construct an incompressible substance of great length then the far end should move simultaneously with the near end hence transferring energy faster than light. It was stated that no such substance exists. Doesnt it? How about coring out a singularity? Isnt it possible that within a singularity distance does not exist nor time therefore measuremnets of velocity become meaningless. I tend to think this is true and that these 'potential' beasties are interdimensional portals. I know, once again, old school. I just think its possible and even likely.
    Posted by ChaosControl on November 27, 2007 5:49 AM
    Report this comment

    Posted by Aaron Butters on November 27, 2007 12:58 AM
    Report this comment

    its a spirograph

    isnt it

    Posted by Tin Finger on November 26, 2007 11:18 PM
    Report this comment

    Thant design would look lovely on a handbag.
    Posted by Julie, Essex. on November 26, 2007 4:44 PM
    Report this comment

    "...it does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space..."

    "E8 encapsulates the symmetries of a geometric object that is 57-dimensional and is itself is 248-dimensional."

    So, it takes 248 dimensions to explain 57 dimensions that prove 4 dimensions? Clear as mud. I think this subject is going to require a writer of the caliber James Gleick, or John McPhee, to explain it to laymen like me.
    Posted by Dean on November 26, 2007 11:39 AM
    Report this comment

    It's the "Etch-a-Sketch" you guys are thinking of.
    Posted by John Bull on November 26, 2007 12:13 AM
    Report this comment

    We live in a vibrational universe that vibrates at a rate that coincides with what we know of your universe. As it will be proven that the big bang did not happen but instead we came to being by multiable dimensional frequency shift that is directly connected to human consciousness. this new theory may represent 248 interconnected dimensions that we travel throught do to our rise of our planetary and human vibrational shift that we are presently experiencing.
    Posted by john settica on November 25, 2007 8:52 PM
    Report this comment

    If the missing 20 particles have something to do with the forces of gravity, how would one capture gravity by use of the collider, surely these would be invisible so you would be looking for something that is not there. Gravity is not mass or a particle. What is gravity? If gravity is pulling something in, and it has other particles pulled in, it then equates to one mass, say the moon or earth. Therefore if one was to drill into the moons crust down to the very centre of the gravity source, what would one find? A gravity generator maybe or quantum singlarity? it depends how strong the force of gravity is to equal the size of mass. If Gravity is too great, say a black hole then the mass is basically crushed or implodes on itself increasing the gravity further more. How far does gravity propagate? is it infinite. our solar system orbits the sun, but our system orbits with other systems that make the galaxy and the galaxy orbits other galaxys then again orbit the universe. Does it stop there? probably not!. who knows it can easly go on indefinitely.

    I guess using a particle collider will create a big bang, although will it collapse as quickly as it was made or will it just keep growing till all the particles it can manifest cause it to stop growing? Is it possible to reverse creation of a singlarity, if that is what gravity is?

    Posted by trevor johnson on November 25, 2007 6:27 PM
    Report this comment

    I have had the basic cosmology figured out since
    1970. Now I have finished some details. I don't
    know who or how to tell it. I am gettting very old
    and it will be lost unless I can tell someone soon.
    I have about 28000 words and a few illustrations
    in "COSMIC RAMBLINGS". My only claim to fame
    is that I was a charter member of Halifax, N. S,
    Astronomical Society about 1952.
    Cheers ET
    Posted by ET on November 25, 2007 4:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Replyinghere to your absurd article on shortening the universe, since you did not have a comments link there. First, the universe hasnt lost 1/5 mass as you say to alarm us - only the calculatin has changed. Thats like weighing yourself on a broken scale then an accurate one and saying "Hey, I lost 10 lbs"! Also, you did not ppoint out that Schrodinger's cat was meant to demonstrate the absurdity of theory that ignores reality, which was confirmed by Einstein. Bad, Bad reporting! (scare tactics to get readers, shameful)
    Posted by John on November 25, 2007 3:10 PM
    Report this comment

    Re 2012:
    Find the surfer save the world
    Posted by Al on November 25, 2007 2:27 PM
    Report this comment

    Symmetry is the one thing I keep seeing in water molecule "equilibrium" for folding proteins in the cytosol.

    We have a good tool here. Will try to use the math in this area.
    Posted by Joseph F. Nowoslawski, M.D. on November 25, 2007 3:32 AM
    Report this comment

    well there was a big bang or rather a big sound and it was this ...LET THERE BE LIGHT...and thats when all of this got started and you and i are never gonna be able to figure it out,the created cannot fathom the CREATOR or the
    Posted by sean connor on November 25, 2007 2:44 AM
    Report this comment

    Helen Keller said "The heresy of one age becomes the orthodoxy of the next."

    All praise to those individuals who have the courage to be creative, who don't shrink back under the glare of scrutiny and ridicule.

    All you mal-contents, go create, give, don't be scared, you're gonna die one day. It'll seem more important then.

    Posted by Fraser Blyth on November 24, 2007 11:20 PM
    Report this comment

    Unification theories all seem to require new particles to fill the gaps in mathematical models. The truth is that the transition from energy to matter and back is a continuum. The point on the continuum determines the properties of the matter/energy at that point. Until this is understood there will be an ever increasing number of newly "discovered"/conjectured sub atomic particles.
    Posted by james parry on November 24, 2007 10:51 PM
    Report this comment

    Odor judges are common in the research labs of mouthwash companies, where the halitosis-inflicted blow great gusts of breath in their faces to test product efficacy. But Minneapolis gastroenterologist Michael Levitt recently took the job to another level�or, rather, to the other end. Levitt paid two brave souls to indulge repeatedly in the odors of other people's farts. (Levitt refuses to divulge the remuneration, but it would seem safe to characterize it thusly: Not enough.) Sixteen healthy subjects volunteered to eat pinto beans and insert small plastic collection tubes into their anuses (worst-job runners-up, to be sure). After each "episode of flatulence," Levitt syringed the gas into a discrete container, rigorously maintaining fart integrity. The odor judges then sat down with at least 100 samples, opened the caps one at a time, and inhaled robustly. As their faces writhed in agony, they rated just how noxious the smell was. The samples were also chemically analyzed, and�eureka!�Levitt determined definitively the most malodorous component of the human flatus: hydrogen sulfide.
    In the early '80s, Virginia Tech profs Tracy Wilkins and David Lyerly studied the diarrhea-causing microbe Clostridium difficile in sample after sample after sample of loose stool from the disease's victims. They became such crack dysentery docs that they launched a company, Techlab, dedicated to making stool-analysis kits. Today, Techlab employs 40 people, 19 of whom spend their working hours opening sloppy stool canisters and analyzing their contents in order to test the effectiveness of the company's kits. You'd have to have a pretty good sense of humor, right? Well, fortunately, they do. The Techlab Web site sells T-shirts with cartoons on the front (two flies hover over two blobs of dung; one says to the other, "Pardon me, is this stool taken?") and the company motto on the back: "Techlab: #1 in the #2 Business!"
    Posted by weird science on November 24, 2007 4:21 PM
    Report this comment

    As there is no difference between the universe and our experience of it, it is consciousness that needs to be

    Once that has been done then everything else will be chicken feed.

    But it seems that most 'scientists' forget that there is a miracle going on, here, now, right in front of them.

    There is no reality outside of 'now'.

    'now' IS consciousness,

    'now' IS time,

    'now' IS freewill,

    'now' IS 'experience'................... isn't it?

    Posted by Simon House on November 24, 2007 3:09 PM
    Report this comment

    To ChaosControl:

    You've shown that you're not worthy of a PhD with such a demonstration of superficial reasoning. Have you never noticed the way in which fibreglass bends. For it to bend entails compression (and tensile stretching) of the molecular components of the glass. The same happens, but to a less obvious extent, with bulk glass. To argue a case for instant movement of matter based on the flawed non-compressibility premise is just plain nuts!
    Posted by Maxadolf on November 24, 2007 3:09 PM
    Report this comment

    Could it be that if you continued to explore the
    smallest object Quantum will ever find, you may
    find yourself at the other end of the universe?
    Posted by pop on November 24, 2007 2:55 PM
    Report this comment

    Nassim Haramein.
    Posted by Nathan on November 24, 2007 3:59 AM
    Report this comment

    I wish people would use the correct term for this -- it is a Hypothesis, not a Theory.

    Hat's off to the guy for coming up with it, particularly because it has testable predictions. Whether it's true or not, he's pushing science forward (because even if it's proven false, we'll then know the reason why it's false and can come up with something better. Yay for the scientific method!)

    Shame on the media for treating this like it's a done deal. Don't get me wrong, the guy is a genius and this is exciting stuff, but until it's tested it's just another hypothesis. We've got tons of those. The fact that this one is particularly simple doesn't mean it's the front runner. Let's all calm down and wait a few years for test results before throwing a preemptive parade.
    Posted by Michael on November 24, 2007 1:40 AM
    Report this comment

    I can't believe that so many people (mostly young men?) have got time to plough through all these comments! I am an infrequent user of the web but was sent this article by my brother, The physics is potentially fascinating and the comments about Douglas Adams, Rush, Newton and Hildegarde of Bingen do show a wide range of expertise BUT where do you all get the time from? Don't you have relationships? Homes to run? Meals to prepare? Jobs to do? I shall follow the story via the scientific literature and hope he's onto something real.
    Posted by gabe on November 23, 2007 9:51 PM
    Report this comment

    What are you guys smoking?
    Posted by Sid on November 23, 2007 5:48 PM
    Report this comment

    Interesting ... but prove it. The theory may represent 248 interconnected dimensions but should find a better marketing scheme than a 248 point, 2 dimensional geometric design using most of a box of crayons.
    Isn't "Physics" the the physical study of science? Theoretical Physics is more than the theory of science, it is the organized religion of the study of theories of science. There are large numbers of very intelligent and knowledgable people studying theories, based upon theories, based upon probabilities which are based upon possibilities. Unfortunately, many of these devote their lives to pursuing validation for theories rather than pursuing knowledge. Many pursue realistic goals with tangible results. What remains is a large, self-serving machine using vast resources to support the faithful in hopes of theorems.
    There are victories. There are failures. It is too easy to devise a theory with missing parts, but based upon enough science and possibility to be permitted a lifetime of financial resources to TRY to prove it. The therory hopes to find validation in newly discovered particles from CERN Collider in France ... which will use billions of dollars and years of work to create the largest explosion ever conceived ... "theoretically" containing the equivalent of "The Big Bang".
    Theoretical Physics will become real at the point of impact. Someone better have something more tangible than faith or this theory will be found in another dimension with whatever is left of us.
    Posted by Denis C on November 23, 2007 4:14 PM
    Report this comment

    It is not entirely clear to me why one of the most prominent and leading avant-gardes of theoretical physics such as Professor Lee Smolin should hold the internet paper of Dr. Garrett Lisi in such high esteem. I thought that the fundamental importance of E8 exceptional Lie group in connection with unification and high energy physics was pointed out for the first time by Prof. M. Green known at DAMPT-Cambridge, England and Prof. J. Schwarz then at Caltech Pasadena in the USA, together with the true Einstein of mathematical physics Edward Witten at Princeton USA, who wrote the classical treatise on string theory showing in the body of their book as in various appendices, the prominent role played by the (2)(248) = 496 dimension of E8 E8 in finding a theory of everything. Therefore at least on this count nothing breathtaking has occurred.

    But maybe the great excitement is with regard to finding the standard model without invoking the string model but then here again, and referring to a communication posted to this website by M. Meyers on November 19, it seems that the nonlinear dynamics school of high energy physics have obtained essentially the same conclusion many, many years earlier. In this respect I just need to refer to the numerous papers by the Egyptian Mohamed Saladin El Naschie as well as the Slovenian L. Marek-Crnjac as well as the Italian G. Iovane. Most of these papers are published in a visible and leading Journal published by Elsevier entitled Chaos, Solitons & Fractals.

    It is also not true that Lisi�s theory is essentially four-dimensional. We do not know exactly what dimension means really beyond the 3 space and 1 time dimension, but E8 E8 needs many, many more so-called �dimensions�.

    At the end I can have only respect and admiration for a surfer with a Ph.D. who challenges conventional wisdom and also respect to Lee Smolin�s liberal attitude in giving people the benefit of the doubt. However, with the advent of the World Wide Web (www) and Google, ignorance of the literature cannot prevent criticism with regard to scientific priority and many fundamental papers which Lisi should have at a minimum referred to, are not mentioned. While at best Lisi�s work is a clever reformulation of previous works published in various international reputable journals. In fact using the Google search engine for exceptional Lie symmetry groups and high energy physics, these papers will appear instantly.

    Posted by S. Traener on November 23, 2007 3:34 PM
    Report this comment

    Man. This has been fun. So much more exciting than than reading blogs on sports or politics. Keeps the gray matter firing. Some of us dolts may even consider reading more about this stuff. And stand in awe at how mighty and grand His design was in the first place
    Posted by mazersoc on November 23, 2007 2:29 PM
    Report this comment

    Some commentaries mentioned the Spirograph.

    Actually, there is a connection between the Spirograph and a physical/astronomical theory.

    However, the theory is not this new E8-theory, but a rather ancient (and obsolete) one. The description of planetary motions in terms of epicycles.

    The midpoint of the inner wheel of a Spirograph traces a circle concentric to the outer wheel, while the pen or pencil in the tiny hole traces another circle around this moving midpoint. The resulting curve is quivalent to an orbit with just one epicycle, and a constant speed ratio. But no actual Geocentric orbits can be recreated in this way, nor can the Moon's Heliocentric orbit be approximated. This is because the ratio of the radii in a Spirograph is equal to the ratio of the speeds.

    Posted by H. de Boer on November 23, 2007 11:13 AM
    Report this comment

    Thnx for commenting on my post PGroot.
    I'm not a mathematician or physicist but heres what I tend to believe...Theres no such thing as anti-gravity...unless you accept that ALL forms of propulsion are forms of 'anti-gravity'. Anyway, I imagine that matter is condensed space and gravity is a warping of space around such a substance. I suppose thats pretty old school. I also do not beleve that the universe has a speed limit except to say that nothing can be 'measured' as going faster than light. But thats a limitation of our measuring devices.Finally I'm inclined to think that those ubiquitous 'saucers' harness inertial forces and not anti gravity. They can turn on a dime or stop and dart away and not experience 'G' forces due to this control of inertia. Best thing about these theories, no one can prove you wrong.

    Posted by ChaosControl on November 23, 2007 8:56 AM
    Report this comment

    Thank you, Telegraph.co.uk for providing us with a link to Mr. Lisi's excellent paper.

    e8 = f4 + g2 + 26 x 7

    and the surf's up!
    Posted by Michael H 34 on November 22, 2007 10:07 PM
    Report this comment

    Somebody beat me to the spirograph comment but yep thats what it looks like
    somebody playin with a spirograph, see ya at the resturant at the end of the universe?
    I have my doubts about the big bang, that background radiation could be something else or remnants of little bangs that are not all encompassing but areas that crunch up and then blow apart without the entire universe being involved. Then again everything could be less than 10,000 years old LOL? At the whim of the Creator.
    Posted by Slartybartfast on November 22, 2007 5:44 PM
    Report this comment

    this geezer is good at drawing i must say
    Posted by lerkey on November 22, 2007 1:34 PM
    Report this comment

    The article dated 17 th links to the spontenious statement by Shantilal Goradia on Nov 6, 07 in a conference at the University of Notre Dame. The statement linked the reciprocal of the fine-structure constant as the natural logarithm of the square root of the inverse of the cosmological constant 10E60 Planck lengths. With the help of the life science library staff and students, he also found some papers on genetic code he was looking for a long time. He talked in 2007 March, April and DNP meetings on DNA link.
    Posted by Shantilal on November 22, 2007 6:34 AM
    Report this comment

    God make this design to be simple - but highly confounding to the puny human mind in the first place......

    It's strange how it looks extremely similar to the complex but perfectly constructed patterns found on a sunflower.....yep, that's just how God designed them - and the universe in the first place - devoid of the feeble complexities used of the human mind to fathom it all out.

    If you believe the truth of God's design, life is much simpler. It's all typically the same as trying to find a difficult way to make 2+2=4 !!
    Posted by Andrew on November 22, 2007 1:16 AM
    Report this comment

    He's a UC San Diego graduate? Very cool. That totally explains it. My guess is that Lisi experienced, first hand, the zen of particle physics (surfing). And one thing led to another. I speculate that the only difference between Lisi, and the guys that hang at Hunting Beach Surf and Sport, is that Lisi wrote a paper. Everyone else just talks about it. Thumbs up, Lisi.
    Wedge Rat, Newport Beach, Cali
    Posted by Wedge Rat on November 22, 2007 12:23 AM
    Report this comment

    I am an engineer, not physicist, in the early 70 I wrote "Frontiers of Physics" where I got to my satisfaction the math unification with gravity, predicting what will happen in the next 35 years till today and after. Those equations are perfect, that is a math approach to unification, physic testing is what is happening in the labs everywhere. I can send the work by e-mail on request.
    Posted by Sam Gueller on November 21, 2007 11:36 PM
    Report this comment

    Interesting story: The 'gaps' draw a striking similarity to the discovery of the periodic table in chemistry.

    Mendeleev predicted the table - but it contained several gaps where Mendeleev predicted elements a yet to be discovered; Germanium, Gallium & Scandium were later discovered.

    Posted by Jason on November 21, 2007 10:21 PM
    Report this comment

    ChaosControl just proved that there is no such thing as incompressible matter. It can't be all protons anyway because like charges repel. A sphere of neutrons is possible.
    Posted by PGroot on November 21, 2007 8:21 PM
    Report this comment

    Though I may be reading into his perspective; Lisi, like many other physicists, may be intimidated by String theory's incomprehensibility. Currently, we cannot understand String theory. As Dr. Witten says, �no one is smart enough.�

    Also, many of String theory�s critics have a, �that�s ridiculous� kind of an attitude towards it because of how radical and unbelievable it is. We assume that there can�t possibly be 11 or 26 dimensions to the universe. Of course, what if there are?

    Depending upon how you look at it, it makes total sense that the universe would be as fantastic as String theory makes it seem and more! On the other hand, Lisi gives us another more conceivable option to observe and I doubt that hurts at all.

    -Charles Rey

    Posted by Charles Rey on November 21, 2007 7:27 PM
    Report this comment

    he thats my spirograph drawing which i made when i was 7 years old, where did he find it....

    i knew it could be handy one day to keep it, still my dad threw it away....
    Posted by amazing on November 21, 2007 7:11 PM
    Report this comment

    Immigration is more important than knowledge
    Posted by P Moor on November 21, 2007 5:45 PM
    Report this comment

    At school I was told 'the Universe does not revolve around you Richard'

    I now live in London E8 - who's right now Mr. Harris?
    Posted by wrangerboy on November 21, 2007 5:33 PM
    Report this comment

    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein.

    At last, an imaginative physicist and another of Einsteins theories proven!
    Posted by MW on November 21, 2007 5:08 PM
    Report this comment

    248/8 = 31.
    31 is the symbol of negation and negativity. You can't dumbdown the Arizal. You can't pick it all up in 2 paragraphs. But it's nice when someone's thinking.
    Posted by hiyyavrom on November 21, 2007 4:48 PM
    Report this comment

    If the current response to figuring it all out is ' holy crap' instead of 'eureka' then perhaps God is having a dirty joke.
    Posted by G. Abriel on November 21, 2007 4:45 PM
    Report this comment

    I have a theory it is the "string vest " theory that is ......blah .....blah..........waffle......jargonize.....jargonize...zzzzzz....
    Posted by steve rainbow on November 21, 2007 12:39 PM
    Report this comment

    My gran knitted something like this way back in the 1950's. She used it to stand her teapot on to avoid marking the varnished table top.

    Wasn't aware of my gran having a doctorate! I'm impressed.
    Posted by Conspirazzi on November 21, 2007 12:25 PM
    Report this comment

    I would love to say something clever but I am not smart enough. What does the theory of everything have to do with a tapestry-like drawing?? Beats me !! I have a sneaking feeling that the scientists are conning us with all these abstract, never-to-be-proven theories to earn themselves fancy PhDs.
    Posted by Jay on November 21, 2007 9:14 AM
    Report this comment

    Heres a question to ponder that I made up. It involves faster than light energy transfer.....Suppose you constructed a very long and very thin and very dense solid tube. Say it was 1000 miles long and just one millimeter thick. Suppose it was so dense, maybe made of pure protons or something,and so rigid that it couldnt be compressed or bent. The weight and inertial resistence of this object would be considerable but finite. Now...Move it. Hit one end of it with so much force that it moved. Obviously its in space...anyway...the far end should move simultaneously with the end struck.The energy transfer should be immediate from one end to the other. No compression wave no shock wave no tranfer from proton to proton because the material is noncompressable. Is that a word? eh. It is now. So NOW can I have my PHD?.....WHY NOT?!?
    Posted by ChaosControl on November 21, 2007 8:00 AM
    Report this comment

    Obviously all the time he has been spending communing with nature has helped to open his mind to these astounding possiblities!
    Posted by Holly S. on November 21, 2007 1:56 AM
    Report this comment

    The question to the answer 42 is as follows: how many physicists does it take to come up with the answer to life, the universe and everything? 42. 41 to bicker, argue, calculate, postulate, experiment, publish, retract and remain generally confused in the University at the End of Time; one to ride a wave and, in a 'eureka' moment recognise the bleedin' obvious. I mean, holy crap, it ain't rocket science.
    Posted by Cloudbreak on November 21, 2007 12:44 AM
    Report this comment

    So the spirograph can only draw curved lines, eh? I thought a curved line was made up of an infinitely large number of infinitely short straight lines, which would, of course, be point infinities, or black holes. So is E8 actually what a block hole looks like? And is the spirograph the ultimate telescope back to the beginning of time, or even a time machine itself? Was it surreptitiously planted here by advanced alien life forms to give a species of bone-headed ape a bit of a clue, or just to entertain them until the universe recollapses or expands itself into oblivion. I think we should be told. Meanwhile, I'm going back to the beach to count particles of sand as I have a bit of a theory of my own.
    Posted by Graham Houghton on November 21, 2007 12:05 AM
    Report this comment

    I salute men like Lisi that have the guts to step off the edge.

    Whenever someone takes the time to reconcile Lisi with Nassim Haramein who understands the geometry of the universe and Ed Leedskalnin's Coral Castle Code (forces) which explains the energy of creation, we will have a theory of physics which will work much better that what we have now, which chooses to ignore that which does not fit.

    Both of these concepts by Leedskalnin and Haramein have been mentioned already in posts above. How many of you have looked at both? If you haven't, they will definitely give you a stretch. One has proof you can hold in your hand (if you can count to 64), and the other the source of unlimited energy used to singlehandedly move huge stones like an egyptian and to hold creation into form.

    From one who has survived the American Medical establishement, the number one cause of death in the USA. I have four physicians in my family. You don't have to be intelligent to practice medicine, you just have to be 'safe.' Maybe thats why they call it practice!

    I have no evidence that it is any different for physicists, and plenty that it is. Ask a physicist today how Leedskalnin could move six ton stones by himself, and they will just hand their head. Ask and engineer how the egyptians could cut stone to a greater accuracy than we can today even using lasers and machine tools, and they will just hang their head. Yet they get 'published.'

    To hell with published papers, science has fought every advanced thinker since day one. Haven't you had enough of this? Study and decide for yourself.

    Posted by bruce on November 20, 2007 11:57 PM
    Report this comment

    "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Find Him, and you've got your answers....and then some.
    Posted by Ralph Gaily on November 20, 2007 9:30 PM
    Report this comment

    I dont think this man will remain poor for long....good for him. Refreshing to hear about achievement being made for the curiosity and love of it
    Posted by Gary on November 20, 2007 9:24 PM
    Report this comment

    Einstein is gone and the USA need another scientific 'hero'. Also Einstein was wrong and you'll find the proof in the web site below. Then go to Special Relativity and be sure to read the conclusions before you leave the site.

    Posted by Campbell on November 20, 2007 8:56 PM
    Report this comment

    I am not worthy of weighing in on this discussion and have absolutely zero credentials with relation to said topic. I have no idea what 2012 means and don't care. I am however a true believer of the world according to me... My perspective relates to the fact that individual's have the ability to find or do great things, but group them together and they seem to miss the point. It takes real genius and an open mind to make new and important relative findings. Organized religion is an example I often use to point out our ignorance , so many religions all the same and yet all opposed to one another. They are just different schools of thought. Different GROUP settings. Equally irrelevant.... The point----he may be just a surfer but his individuality may be his genius. Whilst u sit in your group colluding to discredit, you are the problem.... Grab a beer or whatever u fancy, go have some alone time and consider the world according to you! Who knows you may have an epiphany...
    Posted by Graham on November 20, 2007 8:49 PM
    Report this comment

    An achievement made all the more impressive considering the shortage of intelligent life on earth.
    A theory of mine brilliantly proved by the posting here. See how they all react to pearls set before them.
    Posted by Rodger Lemonde on November 20, 2007 8:04 PM
    Report this comment

    Interesting, but far from conclusive, that's why we call it "theoretical physics". The theory of everything will eventually be linked with geometry. As far as including gravitons or any other gravity particle in the theory seems like a bit of a stretch and wishful thinking to me; It will include extra dimensions and new found particles however. I look forward to the collider in Geneva coming on line, particles, dimensions, black holes, molecular weight, dark matter, anti matter, dark energy, it is all becoming within reach.
    Posted by Brian on November 20, 2007 6:51 PM
    Report this comment

    The more we mess with things we need not know, the more we dwindle in things we should not know. For all things are God, and God is all things.

    I understand it is human nature to want to learn more, but we need to understand that there is no reason to know what is unknown. For we as humans can not completely and accurately predict the future.

    Posted by Your Mom on November 20, 2007 6:32 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm not wearing underpants.
    Posted by Melvyn Femptypents on November 20, 2007 5:04 PM
    Report this comment

    Can you please print the name of the one physicist that was stunned? I think he has been smoking a few too many Higgs Bosons.
    Posted by John on November 20, 2007 4:33 PM
    Report this comment

    The guy needs to speak to Tony Blair. Tony will fill in the gaps with pure spin, which after all is the essential thing about the universe. Tony, as always, got it right. Go Tony, go Tony!
    Posted by Jorge DeManuella on November 20, 2007 3:58 PM
    Report this comment

    I really can't see how a theory that appears to involve a grand total of 305 dimensions and calculations the size of Manhattan is simpler than a theory with impressive symmetry that only requires 11...

    Also, I thought that String theory could be proven if our computational abilities were more advanced. Ok now that I've said that, I've realized that the computations for String Theory would probably cover Manhattan and like five other boroughs. lol

    Meh. I guess I wait and see what the collider comes up with but I'm still a total believer in String Theory at the moment, although new ideas are always good to see and useful one way or another!
    Posted by Carole s. on November 20, 2007 2:34 PM
    Report this comment

    If I try hard enough, can't I draw that complex symbol on my Spirograph? The Spirograph then may hold the key to the Universe and I thought it was just a kids toy!
    Posted by Tom on November 20, 2007 2:32 PM
    Report this comment

    ...I would suggest that anyone wanting to explore similar information,and more in laymans terms,might find Lynne McTaggart's "the Field..the quest for the secret force of the universe",a VERY interesting read.
    Posted by Rick Maloof on November 20, 2007 2:02 PM
    Report this comment

    It�s inevitable that the String Theory (that proposes particles are made up of minute strings) would be categorized as a complex catastrophe lined with flaws. Let us not judge this theory from the stands as so many did with Einstein. If we finally have a theory that can be proven with detailed experimentation then this should in-fact stand at the forefront of science, until proven otherwise.

    To the clown further up the page, if she weighs as much as a duck then she is not a witch...she is a duck. If she weighs the same, looks, feels and quack's like a duck�.then she is a witch.

    Posted by Dr Elgnarc Sunderland on November 20, 2007 11:13 AM
    Report this comment

    Never was 47. We still need to find the question to the answer "42" though.
    Posted by Crypto on November 20, 2007 10:37 AM
    Report this comment

    looks like a ripoff of Nassim Haramein's work
    Posted by ptor on November 20, 2007 9:11 AM
    Report this comment

    Even more than MRI imaging and more durable crystalline structures for building purposes, we are looking at being able to understand the intricate details of the sup-atomic and particle world. By developing a greater knowledge of these areas we can tap into energy resources that could be inevitably unlimited. Einstein theorized about ZPM (Zero Point Energy), which besides the far reaches of the physics theorems such as anti-gravity and other elaborate systems, ZPM's create energy and power from nearly stationary particles themselves. Since particles somehow regenerate their power to infinitesimal limits, these power sources could be an answer to our depleting resources crisis. Furthermore, the reaches of knowledge into the composition of dark matter and energy would allow us to possibly be able to manipulate space around our solar system to allow us to go far distances without losing time or energy. Even still, there exists the outside possibility that (whether you want believe or be skeptical, I simply approach with an open mind) if there are any other intelligent lifeforms that operate in different spectra of dimensions, the knowledge of higher dimensions may allow us to recognize patterned fluctuations as we scan the universe.
    Posted by Ben E on November 20, 2007 6:45 AM
    Report this comment

    So the answer wasn't 47 after all?
    Posted by Dooce on November 20, 2007 6:13 AM
    Report this comment

    If you are interested in learning more about A. Garrett Lisi see: link
    Posted by iinky on November 20, 2007 5:23 AM
    Report this comment

    Regarding the plagiarism "theory" postulated by someone, the article you linked to did have much of the same info as the Telegraph article, however, that article was dated Nov. 17, and the Telegraph article is dated Nov. 14th. Oddly, the second article seems to have much more information...
    Posted by elizalex on November 20, 2007 5:18 AM
    Report this comment

    I get it. If she weighs as much as a duck, She is a witch!
    Posted by Matt on November 20, 2007 4:18 AM
    Report this comment

    Wonderfull...Test it, then test again. With luck, Occams Razor will turn string theory into lint, and then we can get on with finding real solutions to real problems.
    Posted by Patrick on November 20, 2007 3:59 AM
    Report this comment

    I just added another outer sphere with lines to E8, I call it E9! I am a genius!
    Posted by Erik Boom on November 20, 2007 2:46 AM
    Report this comment

    As a retired lori(truck) driver I was startled by the theory! As I read the article, I started to feel sleepy and began to nod off. Don't know why this was but I couldn't help it.
    Upon examining the diagram,with increasing magnitude on my computer, one can see secret mysterious symbols in a strang language at collection points/intersections. Furthermore strange impulses danced in my brain causing a burst of neuron-synaptic surges. Ideas exploded, answers fell into place, relief filled the void.
    Taking out my credit card bills and credit cards; I exposed them to the artists wheel. My credit line was increased, debts canceled, job offers came by the dozens. My profile at the various dating services filled with amorous admirers, and the lottery tickets changed into winners.
    Now, I also have a nice bridge I would like to sell in Brooklyn. Get Toll income potential. Call back later I'm surfing for lolli-pops.
    Posted by Dennis in Orlando on November 20, 2007 2:21 AM
    Report this comment

    The super-symmetry of The Star of David?
    Posted by Ed on November 19, 2007 11:50 PM
    Report this comment

    Hmm. That E8 diagram has a line missing.
    Posted by Steve on November 19, 2007 11:35 PM
    Report this comment

    Do not argue with each other. Just be patient for one more month to see the final result of Gravity Probe B. If General Relativity is not proved by any physical experiment then String and E8 etc. are just math not reality!!
    Posted by Jin He on November 19, 2007 10:13 PM
    Report this comment

    I believe another piece that should maybe be examined is are "frequencies." Frequencies that some how all operate in concert with there own various equal but opposite frequencies. Each able to shift or operate on various frequencies as a whole, but none losing the relationship to the whole.

    Just a thought.
    Posted by Nameless on November 19, 2007 9:51 PM
    Report this comment

    As the Irishman said, and this is no joke, if you want to know the Theory of Everything I wouldn't start from here.
    Our Physicists have been banging the drum about Particles for years now. Why has Wave Mechanics been neglected.
    Is it Political? University versus University, because, if it is, then the world will be ending before the answer is found.
    I suggest the new theory is respected, not the least because it may get us out of the clutches of the Particle-philes.
    Before any number of Big Bangs there was no matter.
    An event of such magnitude would have represented a rapidly changing wave front, from inf. positive to inf. negative in zero time. Or near enough as not to matter.
    Fourier analysis would then give the reason for any amount of 'Matter waves' to be produced.
    Don't just object!!! Look at Radar wave guides as to the production of rotational waves, possibly spherical or barrel shaped waves.
    Look at Aether theory again. Light is refracted around the Sun. Mass is 'attracted' by 'Gravity' to the sun.
    Gravity would be the refraction of the matter wave by the Sun's 'mass'.
    In other words mass does not 'attract' mass by 'Gravity'.
    The apparent attraction is due to the slowing down of those parts of the 'matter wave' nearest to the other's mass.
    Refraction, no direct pull as such.
    Other references:- Ball lightning,
    superconductivity, where the particles
    pass through as waves in a wave guide,
    Inertia, where movement of a
    'particle' would force part of the matter wave to exceed the speed of light and another part to drop below the speed of light. Since this would not be possible, then the wave would distort it's path and absorb energy during the acceleration.Momentum, just the reverse, energy released on
    Take it or leave it.
    I'm going back to building my Electronic Organ which uses Fourier analysis to generate tones from square or triangular waves.
    Posted by Frank on November 19, 2007 9:34 PM
    Report this comment

    My god...all but twenty fit.
    I need sleep.
    Dr. Lisi keep surfing...keep surfing.
    Posted by MD on November 19, 2007 8:32 PM
    Report this comment

    Surfer DUDE? - please don't degrade this man who is probably smarter than you'll ever be - have the courtesy to at least give this man some respect for his fantastic discovery and call him by what he is, a doctor.
    Posted by jake on November 19, 2007 7:38 PM
    Report this comment

    way cool, dude!
    Posted by missy- BRLA on November 19, 2007 7:07 PM
    Report this comment

    Great. One wonders how many new types of bombs (or bombas, as Inspector Clouseau would say), will be crafted using this new theoretical finding. We shall await with fingers firmly implanted in our ears.

    On the upside, I suppose such activities will render the world safe for our precious bodily fluids. Double-plus good, nyet?
    Posted by Walt OBrien on November 19, 2007 7:06 PM
    Report this comment

    Regarding the references to the Spirograph toy, it made designs by drawing curved lines. This E8 representation and other String Arts are comprised only of straight lines, and the curves you think you see are optical illusions. See www.StringArt.com. Everything is an illusion.
    Posted by John Eichinger on November 19, 2007 6:19 PM
    Report this comment

    looks like a ripoff of Nassim Haramein's work...


    Posted by Ptor on November 19, 2007 6:09 PM
    Report this comment

    "Alma," posting at 3:05 PM somewhat hypocritically advises objectivity with "Thing is to question the establishment all the time"... and then immediately resorts to total subjectivity; exposing her own religious indoctrination!
    Try taking your own advice, line-follower!
    Posted by Observer on November 19, 2007 6:04 PM
    Report this comment

    Point: The 248/57 "dimensions" are not spatial/temporal, as commonly understood, thus the model may be confined to the usual 3+1 in that respect.

    Question: Assuming the theoretical completion and experimental confirmation of this mere particle taxonomy, what, if anything, would be its further implication?
    Posted by Michael Laurence on November 19, 2007 5:06 PM
    Report this comment

    Whatever all you folks are smoking - please send me some!
    Posted by Jeffro on November 19, 2007 4:55 PM
    Report this comment

    I note that many people are asking how does this sort of theory affect their daily lives. Well, it already does! It is needed to understand how the MRI imaging machines (in worldwide commomplace use in every major hospital)work and can be improved so as to help save lives and restore the health of others, see link where the principles of MRI imaging are explained. Furthermore this type of image signal processing not only allows doctors and researchers to see the human brain in action in real time, but descibes in theory our group is convinced how it actually processes the imagery input by the eyes,in a way that enables it to understand what this imagery actually means. Peter Marcer.
    Posted by peter marcer on November 19, 2007 4:44 PM
    Report this comment

    E8? Yes that'l work: my mum knitted me a hat just like that, and it really kept my head warm.
    Posted by David Cooper on November 19, 2007 4:23 PM
    Report this comment

    There is no doubt that Dr. Lisi is an exceptionally gifted man, a natural talent, so to speak for theoretical physics. However, and in all honesty and frankness he is exceptionally ignorant on the literature on the subject. He has overlooked a large body of literature which has been published in various international journals showing for the first time the definite connection between three fundamental subjects namely, exceptional Lie symmetry group particularly second, coexter polytops, third nonlinear dynamics and fractals. By melting all these three subjects together a comprehensible answer for some of the most burning questions in high energy physics were resolved with unheard of simplicity. Many of these papers are published in a journal devoted primarily to nonlinear dynamics, such as Chaos, Solitons and Fractals published by Elsevier as well as international journals of nonlinear sciences and numerical simulations published by Freund.

    As far as we are aware, the first one to point out these intriguing connections between exceptional Lie groups hierarchies, coexter polytops, fractal dynamics and high energy physics is Professor M. S. El Naschie who is pretty much like yourself a non-mainstream scientist trained originally as a mechanical engineer and who turned later on to become a physicist.

    Related work has been done by Ji-Huan He in China as well as
    L. Crnjac in Slovenia. It is important to notice that El Naschie connected his work to a so-called fuzzy K�hler manifold. Some of these papers were chosen by Thomson Science as the most cited in the field and if you wish you can find them in Google and you can connect to them easily. At a minimum you should have given these fundamental papers published regularly over the last ten years in International Journals. In fact rather than everyone trying to work everything on his own, he should have joined forces with likewise minded people. His work and the work of the nonlinear dynamics community shows one clear thing, namely it is time to take non- linear dynamics seriously.

    I hope these remarks are beneficial for the further development of his highly interesting ideas.

    Posted by Maurice Meyers on November 19, 2007 4:04 PM
    Report this comment

    Amazing the rather savage pack of non-performers that gather about a piece of fresh meat.
    Posted by owlafaye on November 19, 2007 3:36 PM
    Report this comment

    This will be proven and will also lead to time travel which at this point the information will be proven false and the technology will be taken underground away from from all the people who could benefit from it the most.
    Posted by Brian on November 19, 2007 3:32 PM
    Report this comment

    Once again, we have another "Theory of Everything", that builds upon the clooged quantum theory of point particles, being put forth. There are physical theories, such as those put forth by Mills and Bergman, that explain the sub-ground states of Hydrogen and many other molecular phenomena, while avoiding inconsistencies and fudge factors. However, these theories question the Ptomelic Quantum and Relativistic theories, and so must never be considered by the very well tenured Physics establishment. Consider that String Theory has received billions of dollars in research funding, is the only path for wanna be theoretical physicists these daze, and still has no experimental results or even field equations to speak of, and it is easy to see that physics only wants idiotic unsolvable problems to work upon. What a scam!

    Posted by Jim on November 19, 2007 2:18 PM
    Report this comment

    firswt comment - why should the E8 diagram be a 30 Point fully-connected diagram (with multiple repeats of which some are offset 18 degrees). A diagram of such simplicity does not 'feel' beautiful in the way that many (but not all) mathematical and physical statements do.
    2nd comment - I have yet to see comment on the theory and its predictions and possible proof via experiment from any physicists or mathematicians.
    3rd comment - I wait with bated breath for the no-doubt frenzied approval from the Mandala enthusiasts and their like.

    Posted by John King on November 19, 2007 12:38 PM
    Report this comment


    The Epiphany is: Change perception, change Reality. Lisi's breakthrough is nothing more or less than vectoring on Euclidian Geometry. ie. Time dictates relative position & understanding. Works great when you can nail it for the nuts and bolts group, fails miserably for the gedankenists.
    Yeah, I see it.... I also see... oops your theory just fell apart.

    Posted by ZenMaster on November 19, 2007 12:24 PM
    Report this comment

    Well, well! Looks like the Censors of the Preprint Archive took fright when they realised that the paper that they'd kicked into touch (as per my previous posting) might be rather important, and have restored it to the hep-th section of the archive. It seems, actually, that this paper is rather similar to papers that they previously banned totally.

    In case no one has mentioned this already (sorry if I duplicate this), New Scientist has posted a nice video illustrating the theory, at

    Posted by Prof. Brian Josephson on November 19, 2007 11:15 AM
    Report this comment

    An even simpler theory is already just published in a major book by World Scientific 'Zero to Infinity' www.worldscibooks.com/physics/6544.html, based only on zero, where the results of E8 that are valid are encompassed already. But, if you assume E8 is fundamental, then your theory isn't simple at all, and you get a lot of extraneous stuff which you don't want, as with octonions. These theories will produce some correct results because they incorporate some of the simpler ideas from the book as part of their overall structure.
    An article on the Dirac code on which the book is based by Peter Rowlands of Liverpool Univeesity can be found at www.bcs.org.uk/siggroup/cyber/diraccde.pdf. Incidentally, Roger Highfield's book on time with collaborator, Peter Coveney is quoted on p. 46. More details at the URL below
    Peter Marcer,

    Posted by Peter Marcer on November 19, 2007 10:50 AM
    Report this comment

    quite frankly, who cares? I mean, really, ladies and gents - what bit of difference will this make in most of our lives? The answer - noen at all.
    Posted by doggonemadness on November 19, 2007 10:20 AM
    Report this comment

    All very good folks, but can anyone give me a practical use for the theory?
    Posted by alan on November 19, 2007 8:04 AM
    Report this comment

    The four forces of the universe.
    Strong force..Nuclear explosion.
    Weak force...Atomic decay.
    Electromagnetic...Light, electricity, microwaves, ultaviolet, magnetism, radio etc...
    Gravity...NOBODY has explained this one yet.
    What about kinetic? I clap my hands and you hear it across the room ie vibrating air...how come this force doesnt count? Its the most common force of all. Too simple maybe?
    Anyway, the first three forces radiate out from their source. Gravity, energy converted to a stable mass state, pulls or attracts to the source. There. Explained. Can I have my PHD now? Please?

    Posted by ChaosControl on November 19, 2007 7:00 AM
    Report this comment

    Lisi's theory can be found at

    I know that several very bright physicists were also looking for this unifying math principle that Lisi found.

    The E8 structure (that I know nothing about) is a mathematical consistancy (no contradictions) to Lisi's theory, so it is at least a formally correct physics theory. Next, it predicts new phenomena, it is testable, therefore it is a physics theory.

    I wonder how well Lisi's theory connects to the known experimental physics and verified standard theory. He definitely understands the theoretical physics lingo, and although he qualifies his work as "simple", it is not simple at all, but seems to make a new connection (superstructure) between these aspects of physics theory that are hard to unify by 1 theory (standard model and GT).

    Now Lisi should try to prove himself wrong: maybe his theory leads to absurd physics, maybe not.
    Right now it is still a brilliant speculation.
    Posted by Koen on November 19, 2007 6:35 AM
    Report this comment

    I had a "SPIROGRAPH" toy as a kid too...but it won't explain the universe...nope...
    Posted by Me on November 19, 2007 6:26 AM
    Report this comment

    There is no smallest particle.
    There is no largest organization of matter.
    The universe extends to infinity both downward and upward in groupings of matter.
    The larger the scale, the more time appears to slow.
    The smaller the grouping, the faster time seems to pass.
    Imagine if the entire visible universe is only a single point similar to the period at the end of a sentence. That period is within a book containing many periods. That book is within a library. Other libraries exist a few miles from that library, etc. This progresses infinitely. Our galaxy is just one snoflake in an infinite snowstorm. Gravity is not a byproduct of mass, but of energy. Infinite universe, infinite mass, infinite energy. A singularity is impossible because it contradicts the concept of infinity. If there was ever a big bang, it was localized, and there were and currrently are many big bangs taking place in an infinite universe. Want more hints, write to me, but keep my e-mail confidential. T/Y.
    Posted by Me on November 19, 2007 6:22 AM
    Report this comment

    Yes, please, anything but String (non) Theory!!!
    Posted by Tom Hoffelder on November 19, 2007 5:46 AM
    Report this comment

    Jeff Spicoli: What Jefferson was saying was, Hey! You know, we left this England place 'cause it was bogus; so if we don't get some cool rules ourselves - pronto - we'll just be bogus too! Get it?
    Posted by jeff S on November 19, 2007 5:43 AM
    Report this comment

    Crick was under the influnce on psychedelics when he discovered the double helix nature of DNA.
    Posted by franny23 on November 19, 2007 4:37 AM
    Report this comment

    I'm sorry that I was in such a hurry that I didn't have time to read the entire article...However I wonder what Steven Hawking is deriving of of the surfers hypothis....?
    Posted by Calvin Saylor on November 19, 2007 4:35 AM
    Report this comment

    A surfer should not be bald.
    Posted by Roger AC Williams on November 19, 2007 4:33 AM
    Report this comment

    Consider this unusual fact, as someone who wishes to defeat Einstein math and string theory, I sadly must say this:

    The number of potential outcomes inside E8 is of such a magnitude that there is of course a way to find everything you want to see. Just like given that I am into a unique line of binary compression/encryption research I can find any possible outcome from the bible to predict numerous pre-existing events, and some 'future' events that may/may not happen (I could predict a market crash, give it a 7 year window and have an 80% accuracy rate at minimum for instance, and predict there will be a new war in the world, predict this, predict that.. I could twist it even to suit my form of politics, and sadly I could expect half to come true statistically if I was careful... leading to years of speculation of my abilities as a prophet)

    IF all his predictions come true, then I am going to say "Ok I was wrong to critique him"
    Posted by Michael Harrington on November 19, 2007 3:34 AM
    Report this comment

    It isn't at all surprising that this theory comes from the mind of one man or that he isn't associated with a college or university.
    Posted by John on November 19, 2007 3:09 AM
    Report this comment

    It's my observation that time doesn't exist. Look at it this way. Time implies a beginning. What if time didn't exist. That eliminates the burden of trying to find out where everything came from. It all just IS, right now. The past does not exist. The future does not exist. There is just NOW. No time, nothing but now. We invented time because we observed that living organisms lasted only so many cycles of the planet around the star that's at the center of our solar system.

    We as living organisms all had a beginning and we remember nothing before that beginning. So we anthropomorphize the universe based on our own limited existence. God always was and always is? God just might be the universe,,, and each of us,,, briefly.

    And the universe always was and always is. No turtles,, or elephants.

    Posted by Andy Woitowicz on November 19, 2007 2:17 AM
    Report this comment

    Someone ought to give this man a job with few responsibilities and plenty of freedom to do as he wishes, and then sit back and see what he accomplishes.

    Had I the money I would.
    Posted by Jerry Strain on November 19, 2007 2:14 AM
    Report this comment

    Poor guy,

    It's clearly too much surfing...

    There is no gravity and Mark McCatcheon has proved it in his Final Theory last year among other important implications.
    Posted by Stan on November 19, 2007 1:44 AM
    Report this comment

    See that lttle green dot a few degrees east of north and about 15% of the way...hmmm is it 'up' or is it 'in'?
    Well that's me.... and that little orange dot is my board!
    Posted by murray walding on November 19, 2007 1:10 AM
    Report this comment

    I have found the long searched unified theory of physics.
    It is based on simple and understandable observations and experiments and derived by relevant mathematics.
    It solves all the problems and misinterpretations in the modern physics.

    google by -- theory physics -- and look at the first hit of ca 150 millions.
    Posted by Ingvar Astrand on November 19, 2007 1:09 AM
    Report this comment

    I thought the New World understood that mystical, transcendental
    and ecstatic experiences were the domain of MacDonalds!
    Posted by slidingbye on November 18, 2007 10:32 PM
    Report this comment

    The secret is the standing wave.
    Posted by lalemark on November 18, 2007 8:37 PM
    Report this comment

    ����`����,��,����`��� = Yadda yadda yadda

    In the beginning was the weird...

    So, what was THE question?

    Why E8?

    For tea too

    Eat me!
    Drink me!

    ...and be merry!


    What the s�ance of science transcends is this.

    There is no known UNIverse, OUT there, so to peak.

    It's all OMNIverse, as in EUREKA, notwithstanding on those shoulders of giants like EAP!

    Dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before...or ever after, heavenly foreclosure, divine laughter.


    nanos gigantium humeris insidentes


    Which could only mean that even, oddly speaking, Time Bandits need to eat and drink, no matter how small you are.

    To say the least!

    Beyond a shadow of a mouse!

    d8>D out!

    Vision is greater than Doubt!


    Be Cause!


    E8 my bread.
    Merry drank my tea.

    Posted by d8>D����`����,��,����`��� on November 18, 2007 8:08 PM
    Report this comment

    I don't get how anyone's supposed to take seriously this "2012" BS - this is an article on science, not voodoo or mumbojumbo. Please offer proof that 2012 will be anything but an ordinary year before you start posting inane babble.

    Thank you
    Posted by Mark Kregel on November 18, 2007 7:49 PM
    Report this comment

    i would also like to add that black-holes have an eye just like a cyclone/twister..in this eye you would be able to travel into and out of the black hole because gravity and any other related effects would be zero....
    Posted by doc mcconnell on November 18, 2007 7:15 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm reminded of all the symbology in Buddhism, as well as North American Native religions that symbolize the world in this manner. Interesting stuff, especially if you look at the Universe as a Multiverse and causality as being:
    Future= Infinite probabilities as a wave function
    Present= Supercollapse of the wave function to a probability path.

    Posted by Tom Stormcrowe on November 18, 2007 6:41 PM
    Report this comment

    if his work helps us to get FUSSION
    atomic power to make huge power stations for electric power and de-salinate sea water , he will be as great as einstein.
    Posted by max bernstein on November 18, 2007 4:27 PM
    Report this comment

    Reminds of the morning after a heavy party, when I climbed a stepladder to read the answer to the `meaning of life' (written on the ceiling by a partygoer pal at two am.), to collapse laughing.

    Why the hilarity? Well, he'd written the word `bannana'.
    Posted by Ted Knight on November 18, 2007 3:08 PM
    Report this comment

    "There often seems to be a deep connection between mystical experience and scientific discovery." What better reason to outlaw mind enhancing chemical agents, natural or synthetic. Do you honestly believe it is out of concern for your safty and well being? I seriously doubt the concept of "government" will carry much weight after the discovery of a working TOE. The surfing doctor and other renegades are the ones who will enlighten the world. When it comes to hero's, renegades are mine!
    Posted by Lane Thair on November 18, 2007 3:07 PM
    Report this comment

    Lisi's only article published in a refereed journal is from 1994, where he was a co-author.

    All the others are published at arXiv.

    Another kind of ToE: Wolfram's A New Kind of Science.

    For anyone impressed by credentials, Wolfram's are considerably more impressive than Lisi's.

    Reviews of NKS:

    So which is right? NKS or e8-based ToE, or neither?
    Posted by Smith on November 18, 2007 12:25 PM
    Report this comment

    Utter cobblers.
    42 is all we need to know. A solution of such elegance that it is only eclipsed by the Lichtenberg (square root of two) aspect ratio.

    Posted by Ford Prefect on November 18, 2007 11:15 AM
    Report this comment

    The attempt to define all mystical, transcendental
    and ecstatic experiences that do not fit in with the
    categories of conscensus reality, as psychotic, is
    conceptually limiting and comes from a timidity
    which is not seemly for the honest, open-minded
    Posted by Roger McKay on November 18, 2007 11:11 AM
    Report this comment

    I think the introduction to the paper gives it away already:

    "We exist in a universe described by mathematics" ....... "The mathematics of the universe should be beautiful".

    This seems to be just another case of mathematical mysticism and should not qualify as rational science (even it appears to reproduce certain aspects of reality). The scheme suggested reminds me vaguely of astrological models and Kepler's attempt to explain the solar system in terms of regular polyhedra (see link , link ) and we all know what the scientific status of this is nowadays.

    Mathematics should be a tool, not an end in itself.


    Posted by Thomas Smid on November 18, 2007 10:36 AM
    Report this comment

    Seems to be a lot of unpublished wannabes's on this blog. Sorry, must confess i started reading the posts then got carried away. couldnt stop as it got so bad it was a sort of morbid interest multiplier. So pretentious of so many people to discuss the meaning of it all. We really will never ever know so relax and have a beer.
    Posted by Richard Gibson on November 18, 2007 7:09 AM
    Report this comment

    a pretty picture does not a unified theory make. i'm sure he trumps all the academics at their desks while he ponders the universe from his surfboard. what a bunch of hooey.
    Posted by daniel on November 18, 2007 6:50 AM
    Report this comment

    This will ultimately be figured out in the year 2012, and then the rebirth of humanity's minds will begin and the world will start on it's way to enlightenment.
    Posted by justice on November 18, 2007 6:07 AM
    Report this comment

    Come on Chaps! What is the date on his Thesis? 1st April?

    Posted by timotheus on November 18, 2007 5:39 AM
    Report this comment

    I have many gross of string theory tee-shirts for sale. After seeing E8, I'm willing to sell at any price. I'm also selling off all of my real estate in other dimensions, as this theory will render them non-existent.

    I kept telling my string theory accountant that I was worried about gravity, but he wouldn't listen.
    Posted by John Clark on November 18, 2007 5:09 AM
    Report this comment

    Wow! So many questions though... Forgive my naivitee, since I come from a humanities/social science background (although I do take a great interest in science): Does E8 assume a Newtonian universe, or is there still room for chaos and complexity theory? Is there any relationship between E8 and the Mandelbrot Set?
    Posted by Marco Hewitt on November 18, 2007 4:36 AM
    Report this comment

    Appears thinly typed. At best a visual matrix for showing interaction of particles without the attendant physical processes and relative environments where such interactions occur. Wouldn't particle interaction be different at blackholes? Or in supermassive events? What of the peripheries of the universe and its laws there?

    The model in my view appears a fantastic sliding puzzle of parallel inquiries. It does not equate unification.

    Posted by Glenn_AU on November 18, 2007 1:29 AM
    Report this comment

    all matter in this universe is the result of a hole made by the big bang , just as oil and washing up liquid dont mix so the matter and anti matter in this universe dont mix..gravity is the anti matter pushing the matter together in to spheres from the outside and not gravity from within..
    Posted by doc mcconnell on November 17, 2007 11:08 PM
    Report this comment

    I've also actually *seen* something similar to the E8 pattern when under the influence. This pattern seems to be everywhere and make up everything (man)
    Posted by Magic Mushrooms on November 17, 2007 10:16 PM
    Report this comment

    A disaster, if true.
    Soon we will have the GU Bomb based
    on Lisi's Grand Unified Theory.
    Posted by Daniel on November 17, 2007 10:05 PM
    Report this comment

    It is refreshing to see that there are some people out there who are THINKING. It would not matter if he is correct or not, but he is thinking in peaceful terms.
    I hope that those who are determined to destroy the world will not be successful before this man's theory is found right or wrong.
    Posted by Walter Weidner on November 17, 2007 9:28 PM
    Report this comment

    OK guys, print the illustrations in the abstract Lisi wrote, stack and spin.You get E8. Sorry, I am visual.
    It's got to be simple to be understood.
    Posted by Mags on November 17, 2007 7:45 PM
    Report this comment

    Think about how wonderful it is that this pattern
    was created by an explosion......
    Posted by Mark Bishop on November 17, 2007 6:54 PM
    Report this comment

    A ToE will never be complete without formalising a framework within which consciousness can be described. Even so-called spiritualists, ever at loggerheads with the scientific community, recklessly bandy about words like 'mysticism' and 'cosmic spirit' without realising the potency and significance of consciousness within the scientific approach. While E8 may manifest itself in nature in much the same way that fractals do (by the way does anyone know whether E8 is a fractal in itself?) and may provide the answer to the 'physical' theory of everything, it will never be able to provide a complete picture of the interrelatedness of things, the web of relations that binds us all beyond our spatial and temporal confines.
    Posted by skandinsky on November 17, 2007 5:20 PM
    Report this comment

    It's amazing to know that matter has evolved to a stage whereby it can observe itself.
    Posted by Roger on November 17, 2007 5:18 PM
    Report this comment

    The TOE is the Mother of all puns!

    E8 too!

    Get it?


    The Ultimate Answer
    HREF="li">link nk

    Some time ago a group of hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings decided to finally answer the great question of Life, The Universe and Everything.

    To this end they built an incredibly powerful computer, Deep Thought. After the great computer programme had run (a very quick seven and a half million years) the answer was announced.

    The Ultimate answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is...

    (You're not going to like it...)


    Which suggests that what you really need to know is 'What was the Question?'.

    For tea too.

    It's teacups all the way up!
    Or is that down?


    Posted by d8>D����`����,��,����`��� on November 17, 2007 5:14 PM
    Report this comment

    This is very cool ! surfing does pay lol

    Posted by Luxx on November 17, 2007 4:38 PM
    Report this comment

    I think its easy to see why this 'dude' has been able to come up with what he has - he lives in & is in 'tune' with the REAL world as in nature and the universe that is 'there'. All the other scientists are living in the humanly artifical enviroment of social and political oriented universities and labs etc. How can one 'see' the universe when you are in a cubicle?
    Posted by Jain Daugh on November 17, 2007 4:06 PM
    Report this comment


    You have found a beautiful thing.
    It seems closer to correct than any idea that I have encountered in that there is not physical construct required to hold forces in place via a minimal energy state. I'm a fellow traveler who has been trying for years to see such a path forward. I salute you and ask that you not become discouraged. There are never 4 people on earth at the same time that can see what you see. Expect chaff. Carry on.

    Posted by Derek Neely on November 17, 2007 3:58 PM
    Report this comment

    Whether it's true or not, it changes nothing so who cares?

    Its the same with Stephen Hawking The Bookseller: this is entertainment science, in the latter's case of a dubious nature that his peers have acknowledged.

    Can see it now, "A Theory of Everything", only �12.99 from WH Smiths, just in time for Christmas.


    Posted by Joe on November 17, 2007 3:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Could it be that someone else came up with all this stuff even earlier? I'm talking about the inventor of the Spirograph...anyone remember that from about 40+ years ago? The E8 diagram reminds me of those complex patterns I used to draw as a child using the cogged plastic discs and coloured pens!
    Posted by Steve Dale on November 17, 2007 3:49 PM
    Report this comment

    short follow-up...time IS the filter.
    Posted by carl henthorn on November 17, 2007 3:06 PM
    Report this comment

    Surfer Dude's theory is more amazing still, given the years of self-isolation from academia and its disciplines and from his peers in the scientific community. Garrett Lisi should be trapped and have his head examined.
    Posted by M.L.K. on November 17, 2007 3:05 PM
    Report this comment

    all things possible is the true...KEY
    Posted by carl henthorn on November 17, 2007 3:03 PM
    Report this comment

    Will this mean that my bins will go back to being collected weekly?
    Posted by Lawrence Sinclair on November 17, 2007 2:36 PM
    Report this comment

    Shame on all of us if we let such a
    person with beautiful, intelligent
    mind and seemingly peaceful
    yet individualistic demeanor who's
    only [sic] contribution is a major discovery giving the world a better understanding of the universe (his
    theories right or wrong) and making
    life richer for humanity while
    mindless jocks taking and giving
    concussions all on their way to
    Alzheimers are millionaries.

    Go figure!

    Maybe this aspect of the universe
    can't be described by the elegant E8
    but it is the way of the universe
    just the same.

    Hopefully it is not an inherent,
    static aspect.

    My best wishes for you Garret Lisi!!
    You deserve better.

    Posted by Joel Shapiro on November 17, 2007 1:25 PM
    Report this comment

    I have my own theory about the universe called Atomic Level Theory.

    Life on earth and earth itself is made up of atoms. Each with a nucleus and electrons whizzing round it in orbit. The solar system is a gigantic atom and there are many such 'atoms' making up the universe. Indeed, I believe the universe itself is a mere atom in a much larger system - the next level. It could be that current technology does not allow us to see it but that aside, I believe it is because it is so huge that we cannot actually see (detect)it. Yet.
    To put that proposition into perspective, at a lower level, imagine being an ant on the back of an elephant. Can you, Mr Ant, see who is taking you for a walk in the jungle? Take it down levels to the single cell amoeba level. Now, can the amoeba see the ant? That's the idea except, in this case, earth is the amoeba.

    How was the universe created? I don't know, nobody knows but many have theories, of course.
    Posted by Terry Harris on November 17, 2007 12:14 PM
    Report this comment

    regarding time:

    time is duration of material change that run into space. With clock we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run into space only and not into time.
    Space-time is a math model only and not physical reality. The "fabric" of the universe is space that is a-temporal (time does not run into space as a fourth coordinate). We live in space only and not into tme. Time is duration of our life into spce.
    Posted by amrit sorli on November 17, 2007 8:21 AM
    Report this comment

    The coolest part of this story is that I am a country boy living in Suffolk, UK with kids around my ankles getting ready to go to soccer and you trip over such a story with so much passion attached to it.

    As a supreme layman, I congratulate this chap because it seems to me that he uses his own loaf (brain for you Yanks) and that is something we don't often think of when one considers the USA at the moment (1600 Pennsilvania Av.)

    Well done my son as we say over here
    Posted by Under 7 Rugby Coach on November 17, 2007 8:17 AM
    Report this comment

    Someone who understands this theory, please look at Tony Smith's theory. He used E8 plus a lot more for his TOE at least 6 years ago.


    Posted by Mark Speckman on November 17, 2007 7:55 AM
    Report this comment

    Nils Stalbrand says:
    You see, �but it is gravity, that is nothing new�.
    Yet even today we still cannot understand
    gravity. We can describe, measure, but what it it?

    It's called EROS.
    And it's NOT a metaphor. ;)

    Posted by Veritas on November 17, 2007 6:48 AM
    Report this comment

    The E8 matrix looks like the Mayan Calendar.

    Posted by Mike Adams on November 17, 2007 5:38 AM
    Report this comment

    These comments are a testament to the state of the world's lack of intelligence. I would guess that suggesting to study even some elementary science is out of the question! God help us!!
    Posted by John Coleman on November 17, 2007 5:17 AM
    Report this comment

    Having taken a cursory read through the paper, and understanding enough of it to see his general aim if not (yet) the nitty gritty of the math...

    Meh. Looks like a particle physicist's take on a ToE to me. The bit about reproducing the gravitational action was interesting (to me, at least; but, then again, I'm a Relativist, so of course that's the bit that intrigued me).

    Probably an idea worth a look, but nothing (yet) worth getting excited about. At least it's testable, which puts it a step above string theory.
    Posted by Jason on November 17, 2007 4:55 AM
    Report this comment

    Roger Highfield is evidently a US citizen, since he uses Manhattan as an example of size. Could he not find somethin of the same area in Britain.
    Posted by John Orford on November 17, 2007 4:43 AM
    Report this comment

    Try this theory out for size, the universe is actually a glass globe about 10 feet in diameter. You and I my friends are only tiny molecules of the whole of existence, and the creator, the real God, is the top scientist in his dimension who runs the grand experiment.

    Looking down on you right now with his version of a scanning electron microscope, He gives a wink to His colleagues and enjoys a good laugh at the feeble attempts to explain...HA HA HA...you are nothing but a tiny molecule on the pimple of existence.

    But take solace in the fact that God considers each and every one of the "human" molecules the most important sentient forms in the existence we call the universe. After all, you are created in His image, but only on a much smaller scale.
    Posted by ignance on November 17, 2007 4:27 AM
    Report this comment

    I can attest to the earlier comment "There often seems to be a deep connection between mystical experience and scientific discovery."
    Strange as it may seem to some, this (E8 graph) is what the center of the universe looked like to me when I once died and went to source. It still seems so clear to me and I've not seen anything else that so closely represents what I saw.
    When I saw it I had no doubt that this is a very good model of the universe (theory of everything)
    Posted by Warren on November 17, 2007 4:27 AM
    Report this comment

    It is obvious some people do not understand or
    appreciate creative genius. What I do not
    understand is why the universities are not paying
    this scientist a handsome stipend...and who cares
    how much he surfs or where he lives. Shame on the
    SYSTEM for not supporting this man's life's work. By
    the way, he paid his dues, he has a PhD silly people.
    He is into it!
    Posted by Pat on November 17, 2007 3:13 AM
    Report this comment

    Wow. Pretty neat stuff.
    Posted by David Mackey on November 17, 2007 2:57 AM
    Report this comment

    Amazing. I first met this guy a few years ago. My dad happened to be in his high school class, and during their reunion a few years ago, he came to visit. We talked about his theory (yes, I am under 15), but it was nowwhere near as developed as it is now! Great job Garret!
    Posted by Will on November 17, 2007 2:13 AM
    Report this comment

    Explains the vibration of string theory with the intertwined gravity... Very astounding... Go forth and change the world... Traditional education and concepts are stupid.

    Posted by BP on November 17, 2007 2:02 AM
    Report this comment

    Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle anyone?

    Posted by David Goldberg on November 17, 2007 1:43 AM
    Report this comment

    kinda like "moment-of-truth"!
    i am curious about how much this can explain "creation". if not, this needs to be Dr. Lisi's next project :)
    and our fingers are crossed!
    Posted by Vishwa on November 17, 2007 1:04 AM
    Report this comment

    Expect Spirograph sales to sky rocket...
    Posted by Niffers Dad Kewlaatu on November 17, 2007 12:55 AM
    Report this comment

    I think that this guy sounds brilliant. I believe that he will be able to full clarify his discovery once it has his research has matured. Then the scientific community will accept him and his theory.
    Posted by David Flowers on November 17, 2007 12:28 AM
    Report this comment


    Well I have to say that is an amazing picture of the universe. However I drew pretty much the same picture in 1965 with my spirograph.

    Buckaroo Banzai
    Posted by john on November 17, 2007 12:27 AM
    Report this comment

    I was just waiting for the words psychodelic and LSD etc. to appear along with spirographing surfers and the strangeness of theoretical physics.
    But how many of the hippy chatters know the Lie algebras as well as mister Lisi does.
    Posted by Len Smith on November 16, 2007 11:46 PM
    Report this comment

    I would love for this theory to be correct. Then three quotes that sum up several of the most important scientific achievements would be:


    "That's one small step for man..."

    and the grand-daddy of them all...

    "Holy crap, that's it!"
    Posted by Damon on November 16, 2007 10:58 PM
    Report this comment

    Didn't Leedskalnin use magnetic energy to levitate his stones? I believe he had some crude, albeit useful homemade contraption rigged up in a shed. It is now part of his museum. I didn't know there were any books written by him, only a small pamphlet that seemed pretty vague. He did claim to know the secret of the "Ancients" like the pyramid builders, but outside of that he pretty much shunned the spotlight and kept to himself. This is a very fascinating aspect of manipulating magnetic particles. Also just a bit of trivia, there is a decorative pattern outlining the edge of his pamphlet and some scientists claim it is not merely aesthetic but is a type of code. If someone knows of any extensive published works on Leedskaklnin I would love to know about it.
    Posted by Diana Jagenberg-Trout on November 16, 2007 10:49 PM
    Report this comment

    puts my spirograph effort to shame :(
    Posted by jonny on November 16, 2007 10:45 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm no scientist although I do find such matters inherently fascinating. This E8 pattern does seem to resonate with meaning. To see intricate patterns and fractals one only needs a strong magnifier and a humble leaf to be instantly in awe of the nature of our world and the rest of the Universe. I hope that he gets some serious funding for his work - otherwise it's genius gone to waste.
    Posted by M on November 16, 2007 10:35 PM
    Report this comment

    Surfer dudes rule! Biochemist Kary Mullis is a surfer, and he got a Nobel Prize for developing the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), one of the fundamental tools of biomedicine. Apparently LSD insights helped him do it. There often seems to be a deep connection between mystical experience and scientific discovery.
    Posted by Chris Duffield on November 16, 2007 10:12 PM
    Report this comment

    Any thoughts on Calculate Primes by Jim McCanney? Similar story. www.jmccanneyscience.com
    Posted by Hiyohito Jerichido on November 16, 2007 10:03 PM
    Report this comment

    I will refer you to my favorite Gypsy punk band, Gogol Bordello, and their song 'Super Theory of Super Everything:'

    "...I don't read the Bible
    I don't trust disciple
    Even if they're made of marble
    Or Canal Street bling

    From the maelstrom of the knowledge
    Into the labyrinth of doubt
    Frozed underground ocean
    melting - nuking on my mind

    Yes give me Everything Theory
    Without Nazi uniformity
    My brothers are protons
    My sisters are neurons
    Stir it twice, it's instant family!"

    I thought of this immediately. You can listen too:
    Posted by M on November 16, 2007 9:38 PM
    Report this comment

    I don't quite understand E8. How do you visualize something like that?
    Posted by Nicole on November 16, 2007 9:22 PM
    Report this comment

    Leedskalnin info:


    Posted by Jim Lewandowski on November 16, 2007 9:16 PM
    Report this comment

    Can anyone tie this to Ed Leedskalnin's (Coral Castle) geometric shapes from his book?

    Posted by Jim Lewandowski on November 16, 2007 9:13 PM
    Report this comment

    Even if it's not bona fide (It feels closer than anything else proposed), it will open a few heads and propagate new ideas and perspectives. And who says cold fusion isn't possible, the Navy is putting money on the table.
    Posted by blueman on November 16, 2007 8:43 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm so happy for everyone connected with this surfer. California, surfers, UCLA, UCSD and Mike Garrett are shining right now. After so many billions of people possibly one has penetrated the veil. Child of 1968, thank you for your contribution, whatever it tuns out to be. Garrett Lisi I congratulate you.
    Posted by Donna LaVoy on November 16, 2007 8:33 PM
    Report this comment

    It certainly would be ironic if we discovered the 'Theory of Everything' just a moment too late to save our own existence - not that I'm a prescriber to odd 2012 predictions (I once knew someone who was convinced the world would end in 2005; lost touch with her in 2004, maybe her world did end, I don't know) - but it would be even better if it enabled us to sort out our energy conundrum, thus prolonging our own existence.

    As for surfing, you could say that we're all surfing waves of one sort or another!
    Posted by toosmalltonotice on November 16, 2007 8:33 PM
    Report this comment

    What do you expect from a surfer? you sit around in nasty water all day, waiting to be eaten alive. of course you come up with a theory of everything...DoH ;)

    Posted by vernon shields on November 16, 2007 8:19 PM
    Report this comment

    Its interesting... probably we need to wait a little more time to decipher what the new theory looks like..
    Posted by Dipayan on November 16, 2007 8:19 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm incredibly excited by this in part because of
    it's simplicity (I use that term VERY loosely). I do
    think that there will be plenty of detractors to
    Mr. Lisi as a result of this fact alone. As in just
    about everything in this world, there's a good
    deal of ego wrapped up in any field of study or
    area of expertise. And so there will be a lot of
    people reacting defensively to anything contrary
    to their complex investments to their particular

    There are many very capable people that have
    been banging their heads against a wall, in an
    effort to get through it, for years in this field. It
    would seem that some are angry right now
    because someone like Mr. Lisi may have just
    walked up and pointed to a door that was right
    next to the whole time.

    I look forward to hearing more on this.
    Posted by mcboo on November 16, 2007 8:06 PM
    Report this comment

    I wish I understood the paper. I would like to think of myself as a Renaissance man but, unless it counts understanding the world as it was understood in the 15th/16th centuries, I fall flat.

    Could the complex mathematics be put in the context of something easily understandable like a zipper?
    Posted by Ian Thompson on November 16, 2007 7:52 PM
    Report this comment

    I don't Adam and Eve it.
    Posted by freedom to prosper on November 16, 2007 7:49 PM
    Report this comment

    Fascinating! The Grand Unification Theory by a surfer, not dear old Albert. But wait--I thought Paris and Britney knew everything. Ah well, just as good. It will be interesting to see how this meshes with Brian Greene's work on string theory.
    Posted by Newsdiver on November 16, 2007 7:36 PM
    Report this comment

    Sounds like numerology, astrology, etc to me - pattern recognition being a function of the human brain that can be taken too far. At some point the analogy breaks down. Still, if it's true- WOW, how cool is that!!
    Posted by Frank on November 16, 2007 7:34 PM
    Report this comment

    Hey guys, easy... Why don't you criticize Lisi's work like good physics/mathematical? Point his equations error... ^^
    Please, education. :|
    Posted by Caio on November 16, 2007 7:13 PM
    Report this comment

    One of the biggest problems in academia is the "publish or perish" dictum. This has a tendency to promote the status quo and keep many from reaching outside the box to find what's there. In the U.S., for example, "health care" is the sole "responsibility" of the AMA and the drug companies. Both of which are are untrustworthy and are in it for the money and don't care about finding cures for anything. If anyone finds a cure for a disease they get sued for not curing the disease "using established methods." Talk about being stuck in the box!!
    Posted by Alex on November 16, 2007 6:56 PM
    Report this comment

    So how does this relate to 42 with some improbability?
    They call it E8 but 248 in Hex is F8
    F8 - E8 = 10
    There are 10 + 10 mising points in the theory... 101010 binary = 42

    But then again if you take E8 convert it to binary
    and read it backwards
    you get The Number 23
    Posted by Tony Bologna on November 16, 2007 6:55 PM
    Report this comment

    But it doesn't explain Timecube... I guess he was educated stupid..
    (link for those who seek the truth...possibly the funniest website in existence)
    Posted by Chris Kenny on November 16, 2007 6:50 PM
    Report this comment

    Anything is possible, is only a matter of time.
    Posted by Ponce on November 16, 2007 6:36 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm with the Frenchmen below -- the theory of everything is inherently silly and arrogant.

    That said, this surfer dude is a smart and qualified fellow and those who took cheapshots before reading his CV should feel ashamed.
    Posted by Jonas on November 16, 2007 6:05 PM
    Report this comment

    Einstein had better hair.
    Posted by UB on November 16, 2007 6:00 PM
    Report this comment

    The science establishment tends to preserve, protect, indeed even fossilize last year's concensus opinion (like the Big Bang) while real breakthroughs often come from outside, from people not even considered "real" scientists (just as bloggers were not considered "real" reporters.
    Who knows, maybe someday Rivero's grand unified theory of the solar system (did anyone keep a copy of that?) will be validated!

    Posted by Rivero on November 16, 2007 5:56 PM
    Report this comment

    COOL...Huh..Still, maybe he could work on a theory how to get the Lard off all those Extreme Chunkie Dudes/Dudettes, who place so much Stress on the Omar the Tent Makers FABRIC...It's in another dimension puzzle..(Stretched Thread Theory)....
    OK,Surfer Beach Boy..REALLY IMPORTANT TASK..Save an endangered Specie..THIN HUMANS..
    Lot's of Snow base at Whistler!!!
    Think Thin..Shalom
    Posted by Grouch on November 16, 2007 5:53 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm sure this'll either be bona fide or turn out to be the "cold fusion" of the new century.
    Time will tell.
    Funny, though, that apparently anyone who surfs is thought too stupid to do high powered physics.
    Hate to burst your bubbles, folks, but there are very few 'Melvins' in the real world of Academia...Most of us look just like YOU...Scary, I know...
    Posted by Dr. Mike on November 16, 2007 5:37 PM
    Report this comment

    Were you stunned?
    Posted by Mom on November 16, 2007 5:11 PM
    Report this comment

    Hey, I came up with this as a young child using a spirograph! Of course I had no idea what it was. Seriously I love it when somebody shakes up the main stream of science. The more we learn about our universe, the more we find out what little we really know!
    Posted by Jim on November 16, 2007 5:10 PM
    Report this comment

    I suppose it's easy to take pot-shots at Lisi in an effort to make yourself feel a little better. But first you might read his CV: link

    Posted by HangGlider on November 16, 2007 4:59 PM
    Report this comment

    Amazing what nasty remarks and jealousy a post like this will inspire. Seems he's also found the key to the human ego, and how to bring out people's spite. Isn't that sad?

    People laughed at Gallileo, too.
    Posted by heather on November 16, 2007 4:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub
    It is the centre hole that makes it useful.
    Posted by Lao Tzu on November 16, 2007 4:47 PM
    Report this comment

    "Anyone else read the headline and think they'd stumbled onto The Onion by mistake?"

    Yes. I was certain that this was a joke, and had to check the address bar to make sure I wasn't at the onion.
    Posted by Caboose on November 16, 2007 4:44 PM
    Report this comment

    Surely this will bring back LSD worship, I didnt realize scientists were so fickle, in Gila Bend, Az, the innovator would wither and die, he's so spolied!
    Posted by Jerry E. Barta on November 16, 2007 4:43 PM
    Report this comment

    I feel much better now that I've had my E8 this

    But seriously, what's all this nonsense about
    discrediting Dr. Lisi just because Mr. Highfield has
    less than perfect Grammar?!

    Utterly foolish.
    Posted by Josh on November 16, 2007 4:43 PM
    Report this comment

    Wait a second...did this guy say he actually has a girlfriend?

    Scientists are baffled!
    Posted by Shmartazz on November 16, 2007 4:40 PM
    Report this comment

    You think the Dolphins will win ANY games this season???

    Posted by John Mammoser on November 16, 2007 4:39 PM
    Report this comment

    One more time, incompetent journalists report works that lie at the crackpot boundary.
    There is a difference between putting particles in group representations and doing physics. We can fill a library with the number of unification groups proposed so far, and it is located at
    Failure Street in Buffoon Land. Check the original paper by yourself (arXiv:0711.0770) and look for any prediction of something that may be measured in any experiment.
    End of story.
    Posted by Emmet Brown on November 16, 2007 4:30 PM
    Report this comment

    I feel so much better now, that we have a theory of "everything". It really means a lot to me that magnetism, radioactivity, the small force and the whopping force are now "unified".That was worrying me for a long time. I guess all my questions concerning existence are now answered with a math equation and a little diagram. You guys are so smart !
    Posted by David on November 16, 2007 4:20 PM
    Report this comment

    Here is his paper. I'm an amateur when it comes to mathematics but this is a good read and seems very promising.
    Posted by Kyle on November 16, 2007 4:14 PM
    Report this comment

    im always suspicious when people come up with theories that explain 'everything'
    Posted by gaston monescu on November 16, 2007 4:02 PM
    Report this comment

    I drew one of these on my Spirograph once.
    Posted by Chrissy B on November 16, 2007 4:00 PM
    Report this comment

    Applying population ecology models to this discovery leads me to the following.

    In proving the simple theory of everything we are likely to unearth one of the gravitational particles that anchors us into the space/time continuum.

    Be careful where you point that Hadron cannon. . .
    Posted by AntiGrav on November 16, 2007 3:55 PM
    Report this comment

    "think the point was to show that the stereotype is untrue. One does not have to be some befuddled scientist in glasses to come up with a viable theory. This guy has broken that stereotype, hopefully permanently.
    Posted by Andrew on November 16, 2007 9:58 AM"

    This is a mistake. He has a PhD in Physics, and something like that is necessary for this work. Obviously, it does not prevent him from doimg some advanced sports.

    "The way this article plays up the fact that he is a surfer from the lower class seems really insulting.
    Posted by Gideon on November 15, 2007 7:52 PM"

    Yes it is insulting. This thing are not done by the average Joe.

    Posted by Peter on November 16, 2007 3:44 PM
    Report this comment

    It looks just like the "STRING ART" of the 1970's. What's going on here?
    Posted by Joeha on November 16, 2007 3:41 PM
    Report this comment

    I have a Spirograph too.
    Posted by Tom Tuttle on November 16, 2007 3:40 PM
    Report this comment

    My initial response to what surfer dude proposes was interest hampered by haven't we been there done that. I try to maintain an open mind but the more thought I give this one the more it does not add up. As I mentioned in a previous post on this blog the worlds particle physicists are already using dynamic principles for gravity application and his math is being done by students. This article is not prefaced by his place in the science or math community, instead we get a rolling preamble of his impoverished state. By his own admission, he does not know where he'll sleep at night. Hmmm. Maybe his marketing skills and ability to self promote are more brilliant than his knowledge of fundamental particles. This smacks of the poor underdog surfer dude wanting a bigger place in the sun. His Eureka moment. It's a mockery of the math world. Please, don't buy the Holy C__P Tee shirts, or the DVD. Just say no.
    Posted by Diana Jagenberg-Trout on November 16, 2007 3:28 PM
    Report this comment

    It seems that a large portion of this article was posted by Rebecca Sato in an article for link, in what I consider to be plagiarism.
    Posted by JyBy on November 16, 2007 2:14 PM
    Report this comment

    "Did anyone else stop reading half way through and play tetris on thier mobile?"

    ......only those who can't spell 'their' correctly. ;)

    Posted by roberts on November 16, 2007 1:53 PM
    Report this comment

    The Holy Grail - perhaps not, but noble
    insight and refined acumen;

    Based on what is knowable, yet McCutcheon explains the magnet, can the young man and his E8 theory?

    Not without a very extensive roadmap and Ph.D to read it ...

    These Comments ... leave me speechless,
    man's inhumanity i guess
    Posted by drhall / bearcreekresearch on November 16, 2007 1:17 PM
    Report this comment

    Anyone else read the headline and think they'd stumbled onto The Onion by mistake?
    Posted by Mal on November 16, 2007 12:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Beachbums with doctorates in physics are not your average dude...and given that one can do theoretical physics outside of a lab or even an office - and, like Einstein, without the internet, the achievement is not quite so mind-boggling as teh "Surfer dude discovers secret of the Universe!" folk would like us to believe.

    But it's pretty damn impressive, anyway. I'm looking forward to my New Scientist.
    Posted by Ed Rybicki on November 16, 2007 12:55 PM
    Report this comment

    In simple terms, the final question for any such theory is whether or not it leaves anything out, or in the case of string theory, whether it is decidable. The crux of the matter rests in whether or not there are absolute limits to what is knowable and how these limits are set.

    The line between the classical and quantum pictures of the universe (as demonstrated in EPR experiments) is a good starting point for discussion. The classical and quantum pictures are not reducible to a single formal theory, yet they describe the same universe, and they provide a format in which to discuss and understand why such limits must exist.

    The issue of decidability (the ability to draw conclusion) arises whenever we theorize the nature of infinitely contained structures. At the other end of the spectrum for size, the photon can be used as a model to explore what the term 'infinitely contained' must mean when it applies to any structure including the universe.

    The photon represents a single fundamental path in space. If this is the case, then we should not expect to be able to open (divide) the photon into two paths (in effect, becoming two pieces of information). Nevertheless we are, in a sense, able to do just this (for example, in the EPR half-silvered mirror experiment). The consequence is that the description of the path-structure so created cannot obey classical laws, and the paths are entangled. A quantum-mechanical description applies because it does not allow information on the relationship of the parts. In a sense, this 'conserves' what is prohibited from being known at the classical level.

    The mechanism (in a two element structure) is that the elements are paradoxically conjoined (i.e. entangled). Paradox is the mechanism ideally suited to allow 'absolute closure to observation' of a space constructed as fundamental. The same element of paradox always plays a role when we attempt to find a fundamental theory of everything for the universe at its largest scale

    As an analogy, humor represents the same format for the juxtaposition of the incongruous as found between the classical and quantum-mechanical pictures of the universe. Example: What did the Zen master say to the hot dog vendor? Answer: "Make me one with everything." We have juxtaposed one sentence in two incongruous contexts. This is not trivial. All humor is based on this process. It shows how the mechanism of paradox can be used to bind parts while prohibiting knowledge on the nature of the relationship between the parts which, nevertheless, form a true single fundamental state. In this case, the single state is the face-value of the statement, and the two parts forming the incongruous relationship are how we interpret the meaning of the statement (this causes paradox to arise).

    Cantor discovered the same situation when he created the very simple mathematical argument referred to as his 'diagonal slash' argument. G�del also found a way to restate this principle in his 'incompleteness theorem'. Nature is telling us something in diverse ways. Infinite systems are necessarily self-referential and when we try to draw conclusion about this type of structure, no conclusion is possible. An example removed from physics is the relationship between science and religion (of great philosophical interest to Einstein and Bohr), and in general for the nature of truth (in absolute terms). There can be no absolute truth when we take on examination of the infinite -- the relationship between any parts that we juxtapose as natural elements within such a structure must be paradoxical. In the case of any theory of everything for the universe, some element is always left out. The element that we have properly defined by our theory and the element that is left out are always paradoxically conjoined. The linguistic model for this is Russell's paradox. Truth is only possible when we consider what is not infinite.
    Doug Gill
    Posted by Doug Gill on November 16, 2007 12:40 PM
    Report this comment

    Did anyone else stop reading half way through and play tetris on thier mobile?
    Posted by sarah on November 16, 2007 12:35 PM
    Report this comment

    Wleklinski has just posted a TOE on arxiv which uses Kaluza-Klein SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) but could be adapted to E8. The theory fills in all the rest of physics beyond the group theory and agrees with about ten different quantities of experiment.
    Posted by jw on November 16, 2007 12:08 PM
    Report this comment

    It's somewhat disturbing to see the article playing up the "surfer outsmarts elite scientists" angle and downplay the fact that he's a scientist and has a doctorate himself. Anti-intellectualism should not be encouraged in this day and age.
    Posted by Espen on November 16, 2007 11:47 AM
    Report this comment

    I just bought a 2 x 2 Rubik cube from the Science Museum Shop. It looks so simple, but it hides its complexity. Visually, it's gorgeous.
    My 10 year-old son watched me twiddle a 3x3 cube this morning, and was amazed that it changed from order through some elegant patterns back to order.
    Perhaps if you twiddle E8, it comes back to where it was, after a bit. Eat your heart out, Ernő.
    I'm uplifted by beautiful discoveries and masterful design.
    Thanks, Garrett, for my buzz-for-the-day. I'm off to buy a copy of New Scientist.
    Posted by Matt Lee on November 16, 2007 11:09 AM
    Report this comment

    At last - a good translation of 'Eureka'.
    Posted by D.M.B. on November 16, 2007 10:31 AM
    Report this comment

    Posted by WADE MEYER on November 16, 2007 10:27 AM
    Report this comment

    This is positive proof that surfers are in touch with
    the secrets of the Universe, doesn't it? Don't get
    gnarly now dude. Think up your own model if your
    Posted by eddie surf on November 16, 2007 10:22 AM
    Report this comment

    23 skidoo!
    Posted by st. mokey on November 16, 2007 10:08 AM
    Report this comment

    I think the point was to show that the stereotype is untrue. One does not have to be some befuddled scientist in glasses to come up with a viable theory. This guy has broken that stereotype, hopefully permanently.
    Posted by Andrew on November 16, 2007 9:58 AM
    Report this comment

    Archimedes (born c 287 BC) is noted for crying "Eureka! I have found it!" as he took to the streets naked. Garrett Lisi (born c 1968) is noted for saying "Holy Crap, That's it!" as he took to the waves semi-naked. Seriously, I reckon "Holy Crap, That's it!" is way better than "Eureka!". It so of our time and, as Jeff points out, would make an excellent t-shirt.
    Posted by Grant on November 16, 2007 9:53 AM
    Report this comment

    Ah Junior, sorry mate, you need to read more. Douglas Adams propounded the theory that 9 x 6 = 42 and adherents will solemnly swear that this truly is the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. Don't you know where your towel is?

    Personally I can't wait to read Lisi's paper.
    Posted by Clive Wilson on November 16, 2007 9:44 AM
    Report this comment

    well from what ive read, all the science matches supposed recovered alien technology and testing of human saucer technology out at area 51. This has excited some in the ufology circles as some of the supposed leaked information regarding the usg technology program and the therories that go with it also match up with this guys theroy of everything
    Posted by Bob on November 16, 2007 9:32 AM
    Report this comment

    I for one am happy that there are so many smart people around. I was starting to think most were somewhere between poodle and parrot...
    Posted by Shane on November 16, 2007 9:20 AM
    Report this comment

    This might just work. From what I understand IANAMathematician the E8 is the most complex Lie algebra there is. If it fits with the standard model and gravity it truly is a theory of everything. I've read the paper and it is beautiful. And nature is beautiful.
    I sincerely hope that this theory is proven right and not the mess that is string theory.
    Somebody please fund his research so that he does not have to think about where he is going sleep next month.
    He should be working on this.
    Posted by Rami Lehti on November 16, 2007 9:15 AM
    Report this comment


    This isnt NEW. This is old theory, but has been proven over and over again in different things. Take a very good look at a computer network for example, even the internet.

    Each point (node) is gathered up and folded to match another point. Keep adding to it and you will end up with a limited point. Thats all it is in a simple view. Scientists talking about this as if they didnt know? come on!
    Posted by allen on November 16, 2007 9:07 AM
    Report this comment

    This is worrying. It will only exacerbate the tendency to see Physics Education as a matter of mathematics, a type of "formula falconry", selecting only those students who can develop into "equation eagles" without the concomitant conceptualization. The rest will be put off and will move into "softer" subjects.

    Reader please think: could you explain Ohm's law without the formula?

    Posted by Robert H. Olley on November 16, 2007 8:59 AM
    Report this comment

    We don't need ANOTHER theory of everything...

    Douglas Adams already told us it's 42... why waste more time trying to work it out?
    Posted by Pyro on November 16, 2007 8:48 AM
    Report this comment

    Ron Paul figured all this out 20 years ago!
    Posted by Mike Thinks on November 16, 2007 8:42 AM
    Report this comment

    To ChrisK re: 2012

    While there may not be any hard evidence that the "world will end" on 2012, for you to suggest that catastrophes have never occurred on this Earth is the height of unbelievable ignorance. There is numerous scientific evidence to suggest that the world has undergone monumental periodic calamities in the past (caused by comets, meteors etc.), and you can be sure that they WILL happen again, perhaps sooner than we all realise.
    Posted by Anthony on November 16, 2007 8:38 AM
    Report this comment

    right on! born and raised on the island of oahu, I understand how one can look, ride, and fathom the godliness of the ocean and come up with this! Lisi is a modest guy with an idea. Give him some respect. 'No aloha' is all I have to say for you people. If you have such great ideas why don't we know what your name is? Share. Don't have hate and envy for Lisi because he decided to share. At least he has some aloha. To you who say you have bigger things to worry about, what are you doing reading this? Perhaps his ideas will help to discover finally a controlled nuclear fusion possibility. Energy crises anyone (ie unlimited clean energy)?
    Posted by loana on November 16, 2007 8:37 AM
    Report this comment

    OK, so we have eight fingers and two thumbs, electron shells contain eight electrons, elegant! (except when they don't; any relationship to two thumbs?.
    So, what's the point of these bloggs, when pedants make comments ignorant of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy (6x9 etc), think Einstein worked on the atom bomb,
    can't spell "solved", etc, etc. Err...oops.

    Ok, Life's a beach... Nice one Dr Lisi.
    Posted by Alan on November 16, 2007 8:31 AM
    Report this comment

    Einstein was a con man. Typical of his ilk.

    As far as thinking surfers are dumber than posts, are you working all year long stuck in a cubical or are you enjoying the beach most of the year?

    There are many of us that only work to be able to afford the beach time, which is free.

    Posted by SammySurferDude on November 16, 2007 8:22 AM
    Report this comment

    "Holy Crap, That's it!" = the new "Eureka, I've got it!"
    Posted by Eric on November 16, 2007 8:15 AM
    Report this comment

    It looks fairly complex, but I'm personally happy to see anything take the place of string theory. What a load of garbage.
    Posted by Fred on November 16, 2007 8:12 AM
    Report this comment

    Junior - 6 x 9 IS 42. In number base 13.

    Posted by Martin Evans on November 16, 2007 7:52 AM
    Report this comment

    James, to understand the social disintegration of the U.K., you need to read your fellow Brit, Theodore Dalrymple. Get his books Life at the Bottom, along with Our Culture, What's Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses. Devastating. Also google the words "exposing shallowness" for a devastating analysis of today's ridiculous tattoo phenomenon.
    Posted by Jack on November 16, 2007 7:29 AM
    Report this comment

    Paris, November 16th

    Such an interesting article, but I do agree, it is not the best article ever written.
    What a pity it would be if this theory would be another nail in the string theory.

    The string theory is so beautiful and you meet it everywhere. How not to think that the notes of a Mozart Symphony are small string worlds visiting us?.

    When I have my students, I tell them that I will show the most dramatic events ever observed and never understood.

    You take a pencil in you hand, you drop it, and it fall without seeing any hand that brings it down.

    You see, �but it is gravity, that is nothing new�. Yet even today we still cannot understand gravity. We can describe, measure, but what it it?

    What a beautiful name for a theory, E8,

    I am waiting for more to come.

    Posted by Nils Stalbrand on November 16, 2007 7:11 AM
    Report this comment

    Perhaps there is something to be said here about being the outsider looking in.

    The problem with academia is that it can take years to do literature surveys to understand the furniture, and think about where the holes are in current understanding, and by that time you've become part of the system - seminars, mindless papers to keep research grants which can be part of work in progress (rather than the few great visonary papers that often were the bequest of the scientific giants of yore) supervision of PhD students, lecturing, internal politics, household bills etc. etc.

    Perhaps only by keeping the whole thing at arms length and putting conventional life on hold can truly original work be performed.

    This IS a form of mysticism - a leap to the whole through numbers - in an environment where mysticism is now a dirty word. We are part of this whole and somehow reflect and find more out about it. Think, for example, Mandelbrot sets and the reflection of beauty in nature that we now find in arcane mathematics.

    Brian Josephson the Nobel laureate, featured here in comments, knows something about that. Thank you Garrett Lisi for restoring faith in individual endeavour and finding some openness and wriggle room through the academic mill.

    This work may not be complete and requires more work but it does look promising and anything whch captures beauty seems to have truth associated with it.

    The Zen of the Tunnel surfer - or some such. This article made my day, serious or not. Let's hope professional jealousies can't pull this apart and it can be proved as part of the continued drive to find out just what IS.
    Posted by right-field_PhD_inabox on November 16, 2007 7:07 AM
    Report this comment




    Einstein had very little to do with the bomb, but he regretted signing his name, urging the president to research it as a possible end to the war.
    Posted by JC on November 16, 2007 7:01 AM
    Report this comment

    Yes, this does remind me of the mystery knowledge of Alexandria in ancient Egypt. This is what influenced the Greeks like Pythagoras (golden mean & harmony of the spheres). Music is simply math we can hear.
    In regard to the E8 model, doesn't it remind us a bit of the ancient seed/flower of life model which contained all the platonic solids? Also, I thought scientists were already using dynamic principles for applying the string theory to gravity? Everything is just a spiral of energy, only the vibrational rate distinguishes the density. I don't want to knock this guys theory without knowing more about it. It will be interesting to see what is found through testing. Very fascinating.
    Posted by Diana on November 16, 2007 6:08 AM
    Report this comment

    How did he know that the math models he worked on conformed to the math E8's structural points and geometry? Are there other patterns that would have worked as well?

    I do not understand the math but took enough of it to see a little of what he is trying to do. The math for each individual point and what it represents in his model is relatively simple. But each point in turn fits in with the entire relationship between all the points. It seems like he may be on to something.

    The complexity comes inthe interelationships with each point to all the others in the patters. But each individual point is not that complex. I am a programmer and pgrgramming is of the same sort. 1's and 0's, on and off, are simple in and of themselves but eventually the simple components are sued in a hardware and software sense to work together so that computers and software programs can do verycomplex things.

    I'm not an expert but I do not buy into "10-dimensional universes." A simpler approach such as this is will probably work better to explain "everything." The 10 - dimensional univerese are derived from those who are looking for the answers in the "finished and complex portion of the program" rather than in the base to use the computer science analogy again.
    Posted by Steve on November 16, 2007 5:51 AM
    Report this comment

    He surfs,snowboards,looks handsome,is brilliant.he is quite an alrounder. Wish i were him.
    Posted by vazhavandan on November 16, 2007 5:45 AM
    Report this comment

    Well I think hes figured out the universal agreement that we all have to study ourselves,Then we all will be able to understand all the things that we need to know about the universe and all the complications that goes with the territory. If you really think about it It all makes perfect sense,Wow this guy amazes me, Hes a brilliant mind.
    Posted by Roscoe on November 16, 2007 5:41 AM
    Report this comment

    The article said nothing that explained any of this surfer dude's contentions. One perusal of the article reveals the bland and non descript nature of the supposed Theory of Everything. When the 20 gaps are filled in BEFORE submitting the Theory, then you can laud a surf bum's claims. I live in Nevada and would love to hear a personal rendition of this Theory with 20 holes. That much intelligence and he lives month to month? Cart before the horse kind of deal??????
    Posted by Manuel J Chavez on November 16, 2007 4:56 AM
    Report this comment

    @ Junior: Apparently you've never read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". That's where the Ultimate Answer (42) and the Ultimate Question (what's 6 x 9?) come from. The error is part of the story.

    @ James: The United Kingdom is suffering because of state-sponsored mass immigration?
    Posted by Jacky Tar on November 16, 2007 4:55 AM
    Report this comment

    Let us leave Lisi's theory stand the tests. If it can predict anything that will be found to support his Theory of Everything then Lisi is right. Everything will be alright then. Man, you can surf here in La Union, Philippines. Or you can climb our mountains and solve mathematically our economic problems.
    Posted by bon on November 16, 2007 4:47 AM
    Report this comment

    "I have deep faith that the principle of the universe will be beautiful and simple."
    � Albert Einstein

    Posted by Stephanie Parke on November 16, 2007 4:44 AM
    Report this comment

    I have briefly reviewed Dr. Lisi's paper and believe it has a great deal of scientific merit. One thing for sure is that it is indeed a geometer's dream come true in many respects. I am especially drawn by the amazingly symmetric diagrams on pages 18 and 20 which demonstrate a wonderful "quasi-inversion center of symmetry" throughout the entire structure (as well as its substructures) and at the same time, however, maintaining its chiral integrity! Truly amazing and enlightening work!
    Posted by Sal Giandinoto on November 16, 2007 4:19 AM
    Report this comment

    Huh? This story is clear as mud. how is the e8 pattern linked to physics. looks like someone has been working overtime with their spirograph.
    Posted by CJMeyer on November 16, 2007 4:04 AM
    Report this comment

    duuuudee..it's like toootallly rad..it's like a large wave of totally
    rad E8 algebra comes smashing down on..on..waaaaay tootally cool
    fermions and like they form a bundle or connection or something
    m(y)an..it's like those dude Higgs and Grassman and their radical
    frames would have totally curve warped into the fourth dimension
    man...my subalgebras are totally trippin man..aaweesome..
    Posted by T-man on November 16, 2007 3:58 AM
    Report this comment

    6x9=42 is from Douglas Adams' Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy in case anyone is confused, ie Junior.
    Posted by Arthur on November 16, 2007 1:50 AM
    Report this comment

    so like WHATS THE Theory?
    Posted by chris on November 16, 2007 1:41 AM
    Report this comment

    I just have to wonder about the theory set by a person, who lives in Hawaii during the summer surfing & in Lake Tahoe snowboarding during the winter ...then says he hates being poor?????

    Hmmm ...okay, none of his playing fields are in Europe so I guess he's poor ...
    Posted by Sando Khan on November 16, 2007 1:18 AM
    Report this comment

    Yes, this is really cool, because we need "outsiders" to challenge and provide new ideas that aren't likely to come from the establishment.

    I work in similar vein, but won't claim how important the insights are. You can check my blog Tyrannogenius (at link). I need to update it, but it should have some more material soon.
    Posted by Neil Bates on November 16, 2007 1:09 AM
    Report this comment

    2012. Wasn't that a RUSH album from the 80's?
    Posted by Peter Loughman on November 16, 2007 12:58 AM
    Report this comment

    Nice read, interesting concept.

    Posted by Slacker on November 16, 2007 12:13 AM
    Report this comment

    It does not surprise me that anyone who lives a life of non-materialism (choosing to be poor) and is connected to nature through his passion (surfing, which is one of the most enlightening experiences you can partake in) has made a profound discovery in the area of science. I'd love to talk philosophy with this guy. I'm willing to bet he has some background in eastern thinking.
    Posted by Parker on November 16, 2007 12:13 AM
    Report this comment

    "No disrespect.. but who cares about "the theory
    of everything" or anything else for that matter,
    when our country is being ruined and made
    dangerously unstable by state sanctioned mass
    immigration? "

    I think those can be explained by the doily too.
    Posted by Steve Lang on November 16, 2007 12:10 AM
    Report this comment

    Not close, no cigar. I don't think Earthlings will ever work this out.
    Posted by mike on November 16, 2007 12:04 AM
    Report this comment

    Wow congradulations Okinawa thats got to be one of the most bizarly incoherent rants i've ever read
    Posted by rob on November 16, 2007 12:03 AM
    Report this comment

    "You must always work with Mother Nature. Force is never necessary. The laws of the physical universe are really very simple."

    Ralph Ring

    Posted by Sven on November 16, 2007 12:01 AM
    Report this comment


    furthermore, one quick glimpse at the
    spirograph design is enough to convince me that
    this discovery is probably compatible with the
    findings of Stephen Wolfram, which documents
    the behavior of simple computing systems vs the
    inner structure of the building blocks of Nature.

    (google for "a New Kind of Science" to find out
    more about Stephen Wolfram's work and
    resulting computer-generated pictures)

    in other words: this looks intuitively correct.
    Posted by macmarts on November 15, 2007 11:58 PM
    Report this comment

    I admire anyone who can work with mathematics. I have no aptitude for it. I can undertand theories when they are explained in words, though. If this Lisi guy has worked out something testable then it is a miracle from on high. There is so much of the workings of the universe that are not understood or are over simplified. However, these multidimensional shapes, if we can call them that, are so symetrical and perfect that they can not be the product of a chaotic origin. Chaos tends toward chaos, not organization. Maybe there is a supreme intelligence.
    Posted by Michael Wallick on November 15, 2007 11:41 PM
    Report this comment

    I believe, Mr. Lisi can be quite correct, if we consider, how the gauge symmetries of particle fields can be realized. In Aether foam every particle is formed by undulations, i.e. it arises as a gauge particle from energy exchange between another pair of particles. The most compact structure of such particles together with their adjacent gauge particles forms a centers of closelly packed hyperspheres, i.e. the root vectors of exceptional groups. The layers of this most compact structure can therefore correspond the different particle fields at different levels of space-time.

    Of course, here's still a lot of work to do in understanding of inertia nature, therefore the ToE denomination of such model is probably too premature, but it's pretty consistent with common physics, the AWT in particular.
    Posted by Zephir on November 15, 2007 11:37 PM
    Report this comment

    Hey Okinawa, an Ph. D in Physics from UC San
    Diego hardly makes him an average person.
    Posted by Musterion on November 15, 2007 11:36 PM
    Report this comment

    Where I live, 'surfer dude' is a positive epithet. And
    this surfer dude has been working hard on difficult,
    involved theoretical issues in his field of study while
    engaged in healthful activities. I'm guessing he
    didn't want to get involved in all the less-pleasant
    stuff that being on a university faculty requires of a
    person. Good... more time to comtemplate those
    tough questions!
    Posted by Nancy in Oregon on November 15, 2007 11:17 PM
    Report this comment

    Damn - robbed of yet another of my Walter Mitty fantasies - working out a Theory of Everything on the back of an envelope, then telling the guys at CERN to be on the lookout for such and such a new particle predicted by my theory - and their finding it in short order - natch.

    Oh well, just have to go back to imagining I get that phone call from the Palace, saying Her Maj has read my blog, and would like me to take over as Prime Minister while Parliament gets its House in order.
    Posted by ColinB on November 15, 2007 11:02 PM
    Report this comment

    i just hope that this suceeds
    Posted by Ricardo on November 15, 2007 10:42 PM
    Report this comment

    Wouldn't it be wonderful if physics, which is a science, could be translated into economics, which is'nt?
    Would we then all drive rollers
    Instead of pushing strollers?
    Posted by Nicholas Buckworth on November 15, 2007 10:38 PM
    Report this comment

    Because this is a public article and not a scientific journal (although I do agree with you).
    Posted by Justin on November 15, 2007 10:37 PM
    Report this comment

    Diggity-dank, dude!!
    Posted by Lance Wavecrest on November 15, 2007 10:35 PM
    Report this comment

    Great to read about the guys take on things. Dude-ifying the situation helps dress science up and certainly has people chattering. Less is often more though, cut the lifestyling and lets look at the facts :o)
    Posted by Pete on November 15, 2007 10:16 PM
    Report this comment

    I hate that the 2-D representation of E8 always causes so much confusion, and makes people think "Ooh its a pretty, colorful circle" when the reality is so much more complex.
    Posted by Nate on November 15, 2007 10:14 PM
    Report this comment

    Have you read Edgard Allan Poe's Eureka?

    Posted by dimitre on November 15, 2007 10:05 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm reading the paper and okay - it's confusing to me - but that's also cuz I'm not a theorectically physicist. (ha ha...not even close).

    So first off - that should tell you something - he's smart and to those that are confused - you're not. (myself included). (what about theorectical physics don't you understand? duh?)

    Second, I think that a lot of people that are smart like that kinda forget about us "common folk" where their idea of "simple" is still grossly complex. Course, a Ph.D. (or two) later in the subject matter would probably help clarify things - a LOT of things.

    I think that the idea of the "surfer dude" is more so because you have people who spend their lives working on the next greatest/best thing and then someone like him comes along and he just does it. Kudos to him - regardless of his lifestyle and how unlikely of a source it was.

    I'd really like to see how they would try and prove that. (If you prove theorectical physics, wouldn't it just make it "physics"???) And if it does turn out to be what he thinks it is, I won't be surprised he ends up along the ranks of Einstein, if not just one tiny notch above him.

    Nevertheless - remarkable work. And so young too...

    *standing ovation*
    Posted by Ewen on November 15, 2007 9:56 PM
    Report this comment

    All we are is dust in the wind. Chill out baby... Go
    home read a book.
    Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth on November 15, 2007 9:51 PM
    Report this comment

    "A simple theory of everything" and "Holy Crap! That's it!" all put together by a "surfer dude" ... sounds like another book on the way from Douglas Adams.

    "Holy Crap! That's It! ... But Don't Spill Your Drink on the Coaster, Please"

    I miss him more with each passing year.
    Posted by Chris on November 15, 2007 9:49 PM
    Report this comment

    Ulimately this is still just another view of the spendour of the universe. For many people this knowledge will provide a better understanding of God. The question is do we really have to solve the great unknowns of the universe to find that communion or is there another way that even an uneducated person can find?
    Posted by JohnW on November 15, 2007 9:48 PM
    Report this comment

    Posted by hi on November 15, 2007 9:44 PM
    Report this comment

    I am not a scientist but have an interest in what is happening in science. I came across a book some years ago called "The Final Theory: Rethinking Our Scientific Legacy",
    by Mark McCutcheon who is a Physicist/Electrical Engineer. One review at the Final Theory website says:

    "This is truly an outstanding book. I have been searching for a
    long time to find a sensible secular scientific explanation of the
    universe. Currently the standard theory, representing the
    opinion of the majority of researches from various disciplines,
    has all the hallmarks of a theory in collapse. The latest
    information from the Chandra deep field infa-red and X-ray
    survey (showing complete stars and galaxies at extreme
    distances have a quite normal stellar population), the Sloan
    Digital Sky high definition galaxy survey (showing a pattern
    that is not indicative of current theory), gravitational anomalies
    from orbital data receives by deep space probes, the
    necessity for introducing unreal amounts of dark matter and
    energy to account for galactic orbital characteristics, the failure
    to find evidence of gravitational particles or mediators at
    CERN, tends to confirm this state of affairs.

    With the arrival of McCutcheon's book the 'Final Theory' I feel
    at last I have found a solid theory realistically built on simple
    basic principles from the ground up. McCutcheon, in an almost
    kindly way, leads us gently to inescapable conclusions. His
    clear cut, precise and rational explanations are beautiful to
    follow. So much so it is quite clear that the single principle
    elucidated by McCutcheon and from which he draws the
    understanding of all physical phenomena, from the atom to the
    galaxy and everything in-between, must surely replace our
    current thinking. A very telling section of the book, which has the hall mark of truth, is the knifelike dissection of the standard
    explanations for gravitational attraction of fixed and orbiting
    bodies postulated by Newton and developed by Einstein
    showing where assumptions are made and how they are
    built entirely on flawed reasoning and even erroneous
    mathematics -- clearly explaining why this is so, McCutcheon
    then shows the ease with which any orbiting body can
    influence every other in the universe, immediately, without
    time and without the tremendous unseen attraction forces
    being involved. The natural geometry of all bodies is to move
    in curved trajectories determined by size and not by mass. Einstein's "time is relative" is replaced by McCutcheon's "size
    is relative". Space is again regulated to being absolutely
    nothing as it should be and time is again constant throughout
    the universe. But it doesn't stop here. His analysis of the
    current theory of atomic structure, and replacement for it
    including chemical bonding is brilliant. "

    You can read the first chapter of this book at this URL:


    When I read this article I wondered if Garrett had any exposure to Mark's 'Final Theory'. As I said, I wouldn't know since I am not a scientist and I have only read the first chapter of Mark's book. However it is interesting to see some advances being made in our ideas about the universe. It seemed to me that we had wandered too far from the truth, a bit like modern art, or is it post-modern? I can't keep up with all the innovations.
    Posted by David WA Robertson on November 15, 2007 9:41 PM
    Report this comment

    Junior - You have obviously not read the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. The answer *is* 42 - "what do you get if you multiply six by nine" was the question as derived from a last generation product of the organic computer designed to work out the question, Followed by "6x9? 42? I always thought there was something fundementally wrong with the universe.". btw - as pointed out in the script book - 6x9 does equal 42 - if you use base 13.
    Posted by Mike S. on November 15, 2007 9:38 PM
    Report this comment

    The surfing image is interesting- didn't Fritjof Capra, author of "The Tao of Physics", get his first inspiration from being by the sea as the first chapter of his book describes?

    Maybe moving to the beach is really good for the soul and deep thought.

    Having dropped out of two universities, it would be nice to see that the text books that were tediously dictated to me,word for word by Professors and Doctors of Physics in the lectures I attended, were ,in fact, wrong and the real answers are maybe much more exciting.

    Posted by Dominic on November 15, 2007 9:36 PM
    Report this comment

    Found this fitting:


    Posted by Rickard on November 15, 2007 9:34 PM
    Report this comment

    Bii, the fencer. . . uhh, since when do you ask particle physicists meteorological questions, and you know, I never would have guessed that you were a fencer had you not told us, seeing that it is part of your username. . .

    Posted by The Chode on November 15, 2007 9:31 PM
    Report this comment

    Everybody knows the answer ist 42. Why searching the formular?

    Posted by Stupid bloody german Hans on November 15, 2007 9:25 PM
    Report this comment

    wahhhhh!!!!! u just need to leave time and space alone!!!! wahhhh!!!! just stop it!!!! wahhhhhh!!!! you think that just because you're so smart you can just figure it all out and then mess it all up!! how dare you!!!! stop it... stop-it-right- now!!!! wahhhhh!!!! time and space never did anything to you!!! wahhhh!!!
    Posted by chris crocker on November 15, 2007 9:22 PM
    Report this comment

    Posted by Jasper on November 15, 2007 9:08 PM
    Report this comment

    What about E7?
    Posted by Rafa on November 15, 2007 8:57 PM
    Report this comment

    Bob Beadle wrote:
    > Why is the guy's
    > lifestyle-sport
    > of interest?

    It would not be of interest if this was a University physics professor who just happened to like surfing on the weekends. This guy chose to forego a traditional academic career in favor of a surf/ski bum lifestyle. No one was expecting the next major breakthrough in physics to come from some guy who lives in his car...does he even have a car???
    Posted by Clydicus on November 15, 2007 8:51 PM
    Report this comment

    I'm not surprised at all by the Dude's lifestlye.
    One common thread I've noticed in smart people is that they're beyond impressing others. Excuse the generalisation but they generally do what they please, and it happens to not be working in a cubicle. No matter what the title on the door, you still have to show up and account to someone.
    Posted by superfreak77 on November 15, 2007 8:46 PM
    Report this comment

    So he came up w/ some grand theory of everything...so what?! I'd like to see how he'd do in a boxing ring. Then maybe people would realize he's not such a bad-ass...I don't know. Sometimes I wonder where peoples' priorities are...
    Posted by Better Than You on November 15, 2007 8:46 PM
    Report this comment

    I come up with great, earth shattering revelations and theories all the time.
    In fact I came up with what held the universe together years ago.
    Its shit.
    The world is full of it.
    Everybody I know is full of it.
    Wanna be poser surfer dudes too.
    I figure this metro will get his picture up in the Pet Rock Hall of Fame of useless ideas that made money.

    Posted by Bell Debolt on November 15, 2007 8:40 PM
    Report this comment

    Thank you Simon for trying to focus people on the issues instrumental to maintaining a country where these scientific theories can be bred (freedom of speech, education, etc). I am with you on this. If things don't improve here asap I'm taking my talent to Australia.
    Posted by Melfucious on November 15, 2007 8:34 PM
    Report this comment

    I love the fact that someone outside the establishment may be on to something. There are so many different ways to figure things out...but of course, more things figured out usually mean more questions. What is the saying, "We don't know one millionth of 1 percent of anything" - can't remember who
    Posted by Sean on November 15, 2007 8:33 PM
    Report this comment

    HAHA .. yer not even close ....
    Posted by God on November 15, 2007 8:28 PM
    Report this comment

    The article's title is more important to understanding the person who chose to focus on the surfing than the man it's about. Escape much from your work? Unless, of course, we all really do want to believe that you can spend your life surfing and still be important in the world. This guy has a PhD in theoretical physics. Maybe he does more work while skiing and surfing than most people do by sitting at desks and incessantly citing works of other fame-seeking academics. Way to go Dr. Lisi! Even if it doesn't hold up, you've got us thinking.
    Posted by Cody on November 15, 2007 8:26 PM
    Report this comment

    When I see the heavens
    The work of thy hands
    The Moon and the Stars which you have made.

    What is man that you should keep him in mind
    Mortal man that you have made him.

    Posted by Steve on November 15, 2007 8:25 PM
    Report this comment

    Surfer dude, psh; ignorant stereotype. That must mean that Einstein was a sex addict.
    Posted by Shawn Commenter on November 15, 2007 8:23 PM
    Report this comment

    Success comes to a lucky few; but, only the prepared mind is available to capture the serendipitous windfall. Doctor Garrett Lisi seems to belong to that fortunate category,like Albert Einstein (who barely beat out Henri Poincare and David Hilbert for the winning of the laurels for General Relativity). This leaves me all the more awed and giddy reading about the results that Dr. Lisi has obtained mapping the particles and forces of the Standard Model onto all but twenty of the 248 "points" of this mathematical object, a Lie group that underlies perhaps Mother Nature's symmetrical grand design in spacetime. This seems to have the right smell...

    After the messy minutiae have been cleaned up and ordered in just the right way, everything seems so simple and elegant in hindsight. But that is always the case. Such it was when Sheldon Glashow's, Abdus Salam's and Steven Weinberg's earlier Nobel-winning-insight into a less complex symmetry group that midwifed the Standard Model into existence by uniting the electromagetic, weak and strong forces together from a bewildering menagerie of particles. It seems that the forces of nature exhibit their uniqueness and separateness in 3D-spacetime due to so-called "symmetry breaking."

    The Standard Model could very well turn out to be a subset of Doctor Lisi's larger, more complex symmetry group, mathematically proven by Sophus Lie, the brilliant Norwegian mathematician of the nineteenth century, to be Platonic nature's ultimate symmetrical object. If this in deed turns out to be the case after all, then Gallileo was right about God when he asserted that Nature is written in the language of mathenmatics. The Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, Switzerland/France should soon tell us whether Doctor Lisi, a charming young maverick of science, will merit his own Nobel Prize by presciently predicting the properties of the remaining twenty points of the E8 mathematical construct. The two and three dimensional "shadows" of this complex 248-dimensional Platonic object are unbelievably beautiful; let's hope that they are also truth.

    Tom L, Warner Robins, Georgia

    Posted by Thomas Ledbetter on November 15, 2007 8:17 PM
    Report this comment

    The universe can not be unified by a single
    theory. We cannot even unify the planet. Why
    bother? String theory is just that...something to
    string us along. I don't think Garrett Lisi has
    enough to do all day.
    Posted by Doug Garr on November 15, 2007 8:17 PM
    Report this comment

    Junior is obviously so junior he/she doesn't know the essential guide book to hitchhike the universe!

    And just what is supposed to be happening in 2012?
    Posted by cyn on November 15, 2007 8:15 PM
    Report this comment

    This guy goes against all stereotypes. Your average sufer is not a PhD and your average PhD is not a surfer. Thats pretty cool. Your title seems to imply that "average surfer dude = dumb" though. That ain't cool. Also, Nevada is pretty far away from any beach the last time I checked.
    That being said it made an interesting read.
    Posted by Joe on November 15, 2007 8:12 PM
    Report this comment

    If Lisi turns out be right it would be kind of neat considering that the E8 visualization looks like a mandala (traditional images meant to be metaphorical representations of the cosmos)
    Posted by DT on November 15, 2007 8:07 PM
    Report this comment

    well, as a Professor (Emeritus) I long ago knew that hiring practices at college and universities were tied what schools, who your parents were, how meek you were, how sycophantic, posing the least threat to insecure administrators, or how much cleavage and leg you showed at your interviews. So perhaps that explains his lack of success at being on faculty somewhere. Too bad, maybe some university will snap him up, because even if he is wrong the ideas and theory show a rare mind at work, unless he is pals with the writer of the column.
    Posted by Professor Emeritus P. Bagnolo on November 15, 2007 8:06 PM
    Report this comment

    This is great stuff. I always have thought that the universe would turn out to be simple. We are the ones that complicate it.
    Posted by remowill on November 15, 2007 8:04 PM
    Report this comment

    Unless I hear to the contrary from Prof Marcus du Sautoy, of Oxford University,
    I'll have to provide an even simpler unified field theory, encompassing everything. Hold your breath... Here it is:

    Posted by Abd el-Salam Kemal on November 15, 2007 8:01 PM
    Report this comment

    Regarding my previous post about not being able to compile the Tex file (whatever !, as the file extension is .0770; source code looked like Tex), if you just rename the extension as pdf, then acrobat can read it. On a first glance through, this is fairly complex stuff (Post Grad Physics/Maths knowledge required to actually try and understand it (and some sort of brain extension), I would think). The article possibly implied that the whole thing was simple.!!!.Quote "...does not require highly complex mathematics". I was hoping to be able to write a smallish Python script or C# prog to simulate the whole thing, but don't have a spare supercomputer at hand. Damn !!!
    Posted by Bill Teleki on November 15, 2007 7:53 PM
    Report this comment

    The way this article plays up the fact that he is a surfer from the lower class seems really insulting.
    Posted by Gideon on November 15, 2007 7:52 PM
    Report this comment

    Sorry, Junior.
    The reference is from the Hitchhikers Guide.

    You fail on a grander scale.
    Posted by Gunz on November 15, 2007 7:49 PM
    Report this comment

    Only God!
    Posted by Sid and Donna on November 15, 2007 7:43 PM
    Report this comment

    Symmetry can be shown with a much simpler equation, some may call it the "theory of everything" - but I simply call it: The CAL SEMO THEORY

    S = E (M/PHI) - [PHI is the relative distance] - so simple...
    Posted by PatentClerk on November 15, 2007 7:37 PM
    Report this comment


    9/91-5/99 University of California, San Diego
    5/99 Ph.D. in Physics, G.P.A. - 3.9
    Honors Fellowships - UC Regents fellowship, ARCS Foundation fellowship
    9/86-6/91 University of California, Los Angeles
    6/91 B.S. in Physics and B.S. in Mathematics, G.P.A. - 3.9
    (4.0 in Physics and 4.0 in Mathematics)
    Academic Honors
    Phi Beta Kappa
    Sigma Pi Sigma
    Golden Key
    Graduation Honors
    College Honors
    Highest Honors in Physics
    Highest Honors in Mathematics
    Summa Cum Laude
    Kinsey Prize for The Outstanding Graduating Senior in Physics

    Posted by Tim Tata on November 15, 2007 7:35 PM
    Report this comment

    looks like the model of the iching....
    Posted by caroline on November 15, 2007 7:33 PM
    Report this comment

    The explosion outwards from the centre, except there is no centre.
    Posted by John Waterman on November 15, 2007 7:31 PM
    Report this comment

    @ Bob Beadle

    "Why is the guy's lifestyle-sport of interest?"

    Don't play dumb. You know exactly why it is of interest. It pulls in the readers; it's a tag line.

    The story is interesting and I'll be glad to see its progression.

    Posted by Jeff Shaw on November 15, 2007 7:30 PM
    Report this comment

    The title of his paper "An Exceptionally Simple
    Theory of Everything" is a pun.

    His theory relies on E8, which, in mathematician's
    jargon is the largest exceptional simple Lie algebra
    over the complex field. The jargon words
    "exceptional" and "simple" have a special techinal
    Posted by Shawn Westmoreland on November 15, 2007 7:30 PM
    Report this comment

    I am worried about this being part of the 'inifinite monkeys theorim' (look it up on Wikipedia). Go 60GB of data is a lot of numbers.
    Posted by Jonathan Dickinson on November 15, 2007 7:28 PM
    Report this comment

    Because surfing and astrophysics aren't typically both practiced simultaneously.
    Posted by Collider on November 15, 2007 7:19 PM
    Report this comment

    Very exciting...This seems to me to be the kind of pattern that could be reflected at both micro and macro levels. I'll be waiting to see what happens! And, even in our war-torn, globally-warmed-over world, any breakthrough that helps us understand it is a reason for hope.
    Posted by Dakota Lifestyle: Beyond the Weather on November 15, 2007 7:15 PM
    Report this comment

    Junior 4:00 PM

    You really need to read up on your Hitchhikers' Guide!

    The meaning of life (the ultimate answer) is 42 and the ultimate question is "what is 6 x 9?".

    I don't know if you lose, but Peter Rutter certainly wins in the sense of humour stakes.

    Posted by Slartibartfast on November 15, 2007 7:15 PM
    Report this comment

    Wow, so Pythagoras was in the ball park. I'm taking the ret of the day off.
    Posted by Tim on November 15, 2007 7:10 PM
    Report this comment

    The title of this article is absurd. I would have been just as interested if it read, "Man stuns physicists..."
    Some of you commenting here sound retarded too.
    Posted by Denny on November 15, 2007 7:07 PM
    Report this comment

    Well, if this proves out it means 2 things.

    1. God not only invented the kiss principal, he practices it.

    2. He's having a good laugh watching us insignificant humans trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
    Posted by Mark on November 15, 2007 7:05 PM
    Report this comment

    Can I just congratulate Dr Lisi on finding the final theory. I have been up all night checking it, and can find no fault in the calculations.

    This suggests that string theory must be wrong, what a pity.
    Posted by Dr Lubo� Motl on November 15, 2007 7:01 PM
    Report this comment

    "Why is the guy's lifestyle-sport of interest? Part of a stereotype that a surfer must be dumb as post? News for you, stereotyping intelligence as odd because salt, sand and sea are involved- IS, in fact, dumb as a post."

    It made you want to read it, Mr.Beadle
    Posted by Mike L. on November 15, 2007 6:54 PM
    Report this comment

    Posted by Matt T. on November 15, 2007 6:49 PM
    Report this comment

    Posted by Chris on November 15, 2007 6:47 PM
    Report this comment

    The surfer dude is an image he himself cultivates. Doesn't say anything about his obvious intellect.
    Posted by Jake on November 15, 2007 6:47 PM
    Report this comment

    Forgive me - there's a difference bewteen *observing* that a natural phenomena matches a mathemtical pattern, and *explaining* the match in terms of sum underlying understanding. You've elegantly illustrated Lisi's inspiration to fit the standard model onto the E8; is there any in layman's terms to explain *why* the particulate structure of the universe maps on to this *particular* symmetry? For example - how would the 20 missing nodes map to as-yet-discovered particles? Which charateristics of the node map to which charactistics of the particle (and why?)
    Posted by Jason on November 15, 2007 6:32 PM
    Report this comment

    i'm more fascinated by how the deranged and mentally ill can be lucid enough to figure out how to comment on Telegraph articles.
    Posted by Gob Bluth on November 15, 2007 6:28 PM
    Report this comment

    Is there somewhere, that can download an 'unbroken link' pdf from, as the Tex file will not compile on my version of Tex for some reason ?. I'd like to read and try and understand the whole thing, if possible.
    Posted by Bill Teleki on November 15, 2007 6:24 PM
    Report this comment

    i'm slightly lost, probably because i'm not really into science all that much. but this article jumped out at me and it seems pretty interesting. i don't know if he's right or not, but hey you never know.

    also i noticed someone asked why saying he was a "surfer dude" was important to the article. i don't think it really is important to the content of the article itself, but it probably helps people relate to it a little better. i think showing him as the "surfer dude" kind of shows him in a light we can all relate to, like hey he's just a normal guy and he came up with this incredibly involved idea. maybe i'm wrong. but that's what i got from it.
    Posted by Lauren Jade on November 15, 2007 6:20 PM
    Report this comment

    I have a truly marvelous proof of this proposition which this comment area is too small to contain.
    Posted by Pierre de F. on November 15, 2007 6:17 PM
    Report this comment

    If this guy were working for a university, he would probably have had to be politically correct and go along with the status quo. A group of university professors and researchers plus string theory equals a concensus of liberal nuts, much like man-made global warming theory.
    Posted by Judy on November 15, 2007 6:11 PM
    Report this comment

    "Surfer Dude"......?

    Why is the guy's lifestyle-sport of interest? Part of a stereotype that a surfer must be dumb as post? News for you, stereotyping intelligence as odd because salt, sand and sea are involved- IS, in fact, dumb as a post.
    Posted by Bob Beadle on November 15, 2007 6:05 PM
    Report this comment

    To those wondering about the four dimensions of space time vs. the dimensions of the E8 ... you fold up the E8, and it fits almost perfectly. There are only 20 spots on the E8 that don't match up with current known particles, and he is now working on predicting the masses of those particles based upon where they would fall on the E8. This is why the theory may actually be testable.
    Posted by Dave on November 15, 2007 5:57 PM
    Report this comment

    "Holy Crap, That's it!"
    Surely there's a t-shirt coming with that emblazoned upon the chest.
    Posted by jeff on November 15, 2007 5:47 PM
    Report this comment

    The universe (E8) is a doily.

    Does this theory explain where the missing 98% of the universe is hiding?
    Posted by Ped on November 15, 2007 5:30 PM
    Report this comment

    I am a fencer.
    I know nothing of such things.
    If he's so clever, let him explain to me why in this age of global warming is it so bloody cold?
    I can hardly get my mattock in.
    Posted by Bii The Fencer on November 15, 2007 5:29 PM
    Report this comment

    It would have helped to define even the term dimensions in this when all you provide is E8 and a flat diagram that looks like a very flashy Spirograph (remember those?) generation product.
    Posted by simon coulter on November 15, 2007 5:27 PM
    Report this comment

    No disrespect.. but who cares about "the theory of everything" or anything else for that matter, when our country is being ruined and made dangerously unstable by state sanctioned mass immigration?


    I've almost lost interest in ALL other issues.

    Posted by James on November 15, 2007 5:17 PM
    Report this comment

    @ okinawa: and pretty blonde girls with curls cannot be brainiacs ? btw i grew up on okinawaw - did some of my best thinking playing on the pacific shore - reminds me of last words of newton: "I don't know what I may seem to the world. But as to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than the ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me" - and archimedes: "Don't disarrange my circles!"

    Posted by skyz on November 15, 2007 5:15 PM
    Report this comment

    A correspondent informs me that I was partly wrong about this paper's treatment by the physics preprint archive. It was not totally blocked by the archive's censorship mafia, but merely 'kicked into the long grass'. It was uploaded into the section devoted to high energy theory (hep-th) by the author, but then moved from there to a section designated for 'non-serious contributions'. Alas, there is no mechanism in place for judging the judges, who are thus free to act as little dictators. This is bad for science, as I said once in a letter given pride of place in Nature journal (see the News page of the web site, below, devoted to this affair), which they simply ignored!
    Posted by Brian Josephson on November 15, 2007 5:12 PM
    Report this comment

    pretty mandala - mandalas have a long history in eastern philosophy/religion -
    Posted by skyz on November 15, 2007 5:04 PM
    Report this comment

    I had never before heard of Garrett Lisi, but I suspect that we will all soon hear a lot more of him, one way or the other. Right or wrong, I'm happy to know that someone is looking for more simple explanations than those proposed by the mathematical morass of string theory, and I think Dr. Einstein will rest more easily.
    Posted by Jack Paden on November 15, 2007 5:01 PM
    Report this comment

    Wow, this is pretty great, especially coming from a "beach bum".

    Even if he is proven wrong, at least he has the science field talking about it.
    Posted by Dave Nofmeister on November 15, 2007 4:57 PM
    Report this comment

    What in the world is with this 2012 garbage? The world has a long, vaunted history of not coming to an end. Damned fools.
    Posted by ChrisK on November 15, 2007 4:52 PM
    Report this comment

    Does this new theory of everything explain where the supposed build up of electric charge comes from on high tension cross country electric power cables?
    Posted by David Tombe on November 15, 2007 4:50 PM
    Report this comment

    Fascinating! I am not a mathematician, but this model seems to me intuitively a potentially vast extension of Buckminster Fuller's architectural tensegrity models. Tensegrity cellular structure also seem to mirror the design of Garrett Lisi's E8 pattern. Exciting, indeed (from a non-mathematician's intuitive layman perspective). I look forward to learning more.
    Posted by Bob Garner on November 15, 2007 4:48 PM
    Report this comment

    Okinawa on November 15, 2007 11:14 AM

    ..and I suppose you think anyone wearing a suit must be highly intelligent?
    Posted by James on November 15, 2007 4:38 PM
    Report this comment

    It certainly makes sense to me that a person that can understand and ride waves[a complex moving three dimensional fluid geometry problem], would also have great insight into theories such as this. I do object to the use of the term "dude", however. This is a pejorative word used by kooks and inland queeves. Give the guy the respect he deserves.
    Posted by joe gack on November 15, 2007 4:35 PM
    Report this comment

    He is correct.

    Posted by a3587s on November 15, 2007 4:30 PM
    Report this comment

    I can't judge if it's clever, but it's beautiful : such a mathematical mix of poetry and science is amazing !
    And did somebody see the extraordinary resemblance of the E8 root system with the cosmogonic design of the universe by Saint Hildegard of Bingen, a visionary of the XIIth century ? ... Even more amazing!!!
    Posted by Louis on November 15, 2007 4:16 PM
    Report this comment

    Peter Rutter, you particle theory genius you. 6 x 9 is 54. Not 42.

    Posted by Junior on November 15, 2007 4:00 PM
    Report this comment

    "An exceptionally simple theory of everything" - right! Anyone seen the paper:
    It's scarily complicated.
    Event the abstract leaves me a burbling wreck:
    All fields of the standard model and gravity are unified as an E8 principal bundle connection. A non-compact real form of the E8 Lie algebra has G2 and F4 subalgebras which break down to strong su(3), electroweak su(2) x u(1), gravitational so(3,1), the frame-Higgs, and three generations of fermions related by triality. The interactions and dynamics of these 1-form and Grassmann valued parts of an E8 superconnection are described by the curvature and action over a four dimensional base manifold.

    Posted by KRS on November 15, 2007 3:47 PM
    Report this comment

    Figures that the article first says how easy it is to understand and then goes on to not even attempt to explain what the theory actually is. Thanks, lazy journalism.

    And hey, what's up with the 2012 kooks commenting here? Go back to your pseudosciencetards.com forum and leave the real science to the rational.
    Posted by Kevin Loaf on November 15, 2007 3:41 PM
    Report this comment

    The most complex, is in itself; simple.

    Crop circles are simple, yet uniquly complicated.

    Since we live in a gravity environ it only makes basic sense for that force to play a part in the total equation.

    It is nice to see that a brilliant mind can enjoy the board and activly participate in what is a physics laden sport. For all you high brow lab rats with pasty skin, personal solar energy input is very important to overall mental potential.

    The surfer dude headline as a bit of a put down, actually works great; for it gets people reading the story and the theory. Any PR is good PR and when you have something important to offer it is worth everything.

    Lisi enjoys his life and that is why his outlook is fresh.

    Posted by Alan White on November 15, 2007 3:27 PM
    Report this comment

    How exactly does "it does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space, when some rival theories need ten or even more spatial dimensions" square with "E8 encapsulates the symmetries of a geometric object that is 57-dimensional and is itself is 248-dimensional".
    Posted by G. Laudner on November 15, 2007 3:24 PM
    Report this comment

    Its easier to be creative and innovative when u havent been absorbed by the mainstream.Thing is to question the stablishment all the time. On the other hand, I also believe that by experiencing the universe in a sensorial ordinary gives more than just reading mathematics books. Science starts being an individual activity, and then comes to be a social when u start to do some research and stuff, so I really think being a surfer guys really helps here!!! Anyway, physics is one of the blessings from Allah and we are all blessed since we can at least imagine how big our universe can be! subhallah
    Posted by Alma on November 15, 2007 3:05 PM
    Report this comment

    Interesting in the extreme.
    Even if it is not the "final" answer, if even some of the particle predictions come off, it will still have been a damn useful tool, and a Nobel to boot.

    I keep hoping I'll live long enough to see the next big physics breakthorugh.

    I do think they are getting close. Physics in many ways is where it was right before Newton or Einstein. A thousand theories to explain a thousand phenomonae, but the the breakthrough happens and the major rules turn out to fit on an index card. I.e., Newton's 3 laws, Einstein's E=MCsq'd, etc.

    Yes, I know that is all a criminal oversimplification, but I'm typing a comment, not a thesis. ;-)

    Posted by neal on November 15, 2007 3:04 PM
    Report this comment

    Since this construction is not reproducing new dimensions, but mapping out variable symmetries,does this finally end reconstructive, posteriori determinations, and bring back priori, universal principle theory, whose application could rescue all the social and macro theorists, who believed in an underlying principle, from Smith to Karl Marx, with their macro theories, and Labor theories of wealth? Will the social principle, or universal principle rescue Marxism? the Enlightenment from its relative links, variable symmetries,that were used by micro analysts,class apologists, class ideologists, to avoid, deny the the unfifying link of everything?
    Posted by Eric Albert on November 15, 2007 3:02 PM
    Report this comment

    Thank you Matt for the gibberish in capital letters.

    I am rather rather puzzled that the intro. states "it does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space" but later on it says that it is based on E8 that has an eight-dimensional mathematical pattern. Can anyone cast any light on this?
    Posted by William Garrett on November 15, 2007 2:55 PM
    Report this comment

    Sorry, surfer dude, but I prefer Kurt Vonnegut's explanation:

    I wanted all things
    To seem to make some sense,
    So we all could be happy, yes,
    Instead of tense.
    And I made up lies
    So that they all fit nice,
    And I made this sad world
    A Par-a-dise.

    God made mud.
    God got lonesome.
    So God said to some of the mud, "Sit up!"
    "See all I've made," said God, "the hills, the sea, they sky, the stars."
    And I was some of the mud that got to sit up and have a look around.
    Lucky me, lucky mud.

    Posted by Blogger1947 on November 15, 2007 2:55 PM
    Report this comment

    Undergrad at UCLA - do you Brits know how hard it is to get into UCLA? It's nearly 65% Asian (Chinese) with A+ grade point averages.
    Posted by Lark Angel on November 15, 2007 2:50 PM
    Report this comment

    Is the answer to his solution '42'?
    Posted by R on November 15, 2007 2:43 PM
    Report this comment

    What's the big deal? I discovered E8 when I was a little kid,
    it's called a spirograph game.
    Posted by Don on November 15, 2007 2:18 PM
    Report this comment

    Posted by james on November 15, 2007 2:07 PM
    Report this comment

    Too late my idealistic friend. The moronic leaders already have the ammo
    to destroy it all. And in light of
    geopolitical conflict and development
    appear to make 2012 a fact instead of myth. However, as one who is fascinated by mathematics simply because of my inability to be good at it and my reverence for knowledge, you go surferboy!! or any other
    geniuses being described as "ordinary
    person" etc. I am an ordinary person
    with no degrees but I count researchers amongst my heroes. God
    only knows the results of these
    incredible , fabulous discoveries
    could make a more peaceful world in the long run. We have nothing to lose. And as one of my historical
    heroes said, "All we have to fear is
    fear itself." The genie has been out of the bottle and if Einstein hadn't done it, some other researchers and scientists were on the verge of producing it as well. Thank God the U S and Einstein came up with it first as we could have been speaking
    German right now. signed :
    and ordinary person.

    Posted by John C DePaolo on November 15, 2007 1:51 PM
    Report this comment

    mines a glass of cool, not cold, Chassagne Montrachet premier cru Les Embrazees Bernard Morey 2004
    i tasted it last night and that is the answer to my little universe
    nuff said
    Posted by chris leather on November 15, 2007 1:03 PM
    Report this comment

    Oh how we ponder our marvelous existance,
    Closer yet to its eternal persistance.
    Imaginations on the verge of magic,
    And still somehow strangely tragic.
    Everyday we are faced with our imperfection,
    And fail to find that correction.

    If only the answers we sought could save us from ourselves.

    Just a thought.
    Posted by chazley on November 15, 2007 1:02 PM
    Report this comment

    Hey Stu, can you really call a beachbum with a doctorate in theoretical physics an "average" person?
    Posted by Mike Green on November 15, 2007 12:33 PM
    Report this comment

    But I thought everyone knew that the answer to Life the Universe and everything was 42 ie 6 x 9 !
    Posted by Peter Rutter on November 15, 2007 11:41 AM
    Report this comment

    He's quite lucky that the physics preprint archive (the first link above) didn't bar his paper. There is officially no refereeing of papers, and yet the string theorists who run the archive have a nasty habit of blocking submissions advocating alternative approaches, even when the papers concerned have already been accepted by journals.
    Posted by Prof. Brian Josephson on November 15, 2007 11:38 AM
    Report this comment

    Gravity discovered by apple falling on head. Water displacement theory by too hot bath water. Penicillin by decaying sandwiches on desk. Simple events leading to explanation of complex issues seems to work pretty well. Good luck to the surfer, it sounds as good as anything else on offer.
    Posted by Stu no Science on November 15, 2007 11:31 AM
    Report this comment

    Wow, this is amazing stuff. I love reading about average people doing amazing things.
    Posted by Okinawa on November 15, 2007 11:14 AM
    Report this comment

    Hey Bud,








    Posted by Matt on November 15, 2007 10:39 AM
    Report this comment

    Symmetry like that would be a wonderful solution. I eagerly await it being giving the acid test.
    Posted by Mobius on November 15, 2007 10:36 AM
    Report this comment

    Fascinating stuff, especially bearing in mind that in the mystery schools of Ancient Egypt it was recognised that mathematics and music constitute a universal language, and like the artists wheel are allied to vibratory rates.
    Posted by Doug on November 15, 2007 10:17 AM
    Report this comment

    RBS stock market alert: fund managers react
    Fund managers respond to RBS's gloomy prediction.
    Sign language: week three
    Another selection of strange signs from across the globe.
    Meet Pixar's latest creation, lovable robot WALL-E.
    Children's singing campaign
    New singing lessons for under-12s who attend the festival.

    You are here: Telegraph > Earth >