FanNation - The Republic of Sport

Are you kidding me? Stellar cast? Sundin has never complained about line mates ... only leafs fans have complained about his linemates with reason...Sundin turned a stiff like Jonas Hoglund into a near 30 goal scorer. The few times when he was on the ice with Mogilny was like magic..except they hardly ever played together. Also for some inane reason he played an average of 3 or 4 minutes less a game than many other superstars (coaches bad decision)... and if you are comparing an old wendel clark, Sergei Berezin?? an old steve thomas and dimitri khristich to players like Forsberg, Hejduk, Shannahan..not to mention the defense developing the plays....Lidstrom, Blake, Bourque, Ozolinch ...all of the players you mention that were Sundin linemates were essentially out of the league after they finished with the leafs...its alright to be ticked that he didnt want to move but do some research before you write a sports article...this is embarassing.

I can't believe you're making excuses for this guy. What great players did Dale Hawerchuck have? Aside from Steve Larmer, who did Denis Savard have? Sidney Crosby had 100+ point seasons while playing with "over the hill" Mark Recchi. So don't tell me I didn't do my research. I did. Sundin is an overrated stiff who averaged 78 points a season. You seriously call that a superstar?

Sundin is over-rated. Ignore his choice not to be dealt during the year. I blame the GM for giving no trade agreements. Sundin had the two Russian kids most of the year. They aren't great but they're good. Had it been Crosby or Zetterberg, 100+ would have been a certainty.

When Sundin has the puck, he has it and keeps it. It takes a specific style of winger to play with that type of centre. The fact is Sundin is not worth $10 million. The Leafs would be better off doing their fresh start spending their $7 million offer with someone else or even with two players. Streit & Ryder for instance.

All I'm saying is that aside from Sidney Crosby (clearly Sundin isn't Sidney Crosby) it is somewhat of a stretch to say that Hawerchuk, Zetterberg, Savard or Yzerman would 'easily' score 100+ points playing on the Sundin era leafs under the same circumstances.

firstly - I would bet that all of those players averaged at least 3-5 min more ice time per game than Sundin - Quinn especially refused to play Sundin more than 18-19 min a night most of the time..
Secondly - Hawerchuk and Savard (and young Yzerman) played in an era where there was much more scoring...throughout the 80's you could score 100 pts and still not crack the top 10 in scoring....over the past 10 years you would have to be in the top 3 (give or take) ....some years no one scored 100.
Thirdly - Zetterberg wouldve barely cracked 100 this year (if he played 82 games) playing for the best team in hockey....you really think he out performs that season playing with a bunch of scrubs on the leafs?..c'mon.

Sundin today may not be worth 10 mil but I really believe his talent was really wasted in Toronto over the past decade.....and again if turning Jonas Hoglund and Darcy Tucker into 20+ goal scorers isnt making your teamates better....I dont know what it....at one point he was on a line and power play with Tie Domi for crying out loud.......take a look at many of the players sundin has played with and you will see a heavy downward trend in their production during the time they didnt play with Sundin....the only reason they looked any good at all is because Sundin made them look good.

Bryan Berard was the forgoten star on that Maple Leaf team. With Sidney Crosby, Denis Savard or Adam Oates' creativity, he could easily have racked up great point totals. Sundin never utilized "back door" plays or had any imagination on the power play. Sure they had duds on their roster, but they also had high quality talent. There is no excuse for his pathetic point averages.

Brian Bereard never even played a full season for the Leafs he was acquired at the trade deadline one year then injured his eye the next. He couldve been great but in the end was a blip on the screen in Sundin's career.

We really have to take Crosby out of the discussion...Sudin is not in his class agreed....The only Linemate that played with Sundin consistently who wouldve cracked the first line (and sometimes second line) in another top 10 NHL team was Gary Roberts....Throw me a bone here..don't you think that playing with players like Brett Hull or Cam Neely wouldve impacted Sundin's point totals? I guess it is all really opinion....

Also what about the time on ice issue as well..that was certainly an impact on point totals

It's nice that we agree on Bryan Berard's possible greatness.

The Leafs can never just have a 'star' player. In Toronto, they always want to take at least one player and elevate him to 'God' status. The Toronto media is a huge culprit in blinding the fans to accurate talent assessment.

A few examples...

Wendell Clark...In any other city, he'd be considered nothing more than a tough, solid, dependable player. In Toronto, the media glorified him for years.

Doug Gilmour: A great player...But C'mon...Only the Leafs would release a Stanley Cup Video Playoffs commemorative DVD set in a year when they only go to the semi-finals! (Remember all the media hype...Once again, Doug
Gilmour, only 150 pounds when wet, put the Leafs on his back and carried them to victory. He has a heart the size of an elephant! He lost 10 pounds of sweat in the first period...Blah blah blah)

And Sundin...Toronto tried to characterize him as as the next Mark Messier. That's why they handed out no-trade contracts to the 'decent' guys around him and thought that was a one-way ticket to the Cup.


Regarding the $20 million dollar 2 year offer, I can only surmise that there's something poisonous in the water in Vancouver. There is no logic to it whatseover. They could have had Jagr for less than that. Easily as good a player and probably more marketable. Or better yet, spread that 10 mil a season around to 2 players.

Yes. Wendel Clark was good but far too brittle and inconsistant. He only averaged a point a game once. Clark could have been good. If he hit a little less and score a little more. Yet somehow he's a Maple Leaf Legend? Darryl Sittler and Borje Salming were legends.

Agreed. Sittler and Salming were genuine. A lot of pretenders followed.