09
Nov
They Never Learn (a Continuing Saga)
Mike Pence, today:
The Republican brand is still alive and well, Rep. Mike Pence said on Fox News Sunday.When asked by Chris Wallace what “conservative solutions” the GOP would bring to their current minority-party status, Pence said social issues like “the sanctity of marriage” will remain the backbone of the Republican platform.
“You build those conservative solutions, Chris, on the same time-honored principles of limited government, a belief in free markets, in the sanctity of life, the sanctity of marriage,” Pence said.
The Indiana representative cited the ballot measures against gay marriage that passed on Election Day as evidence of the continuing presence of conservative values.
Matt Yglesias, discussing Mike Pence, last month:
There are very few members of congress with whom I’ve ever had the opportunity to discuss a substantive matter of public policy. But as it happens, one of them — the one with whom I’ve had the second-longest exchange — is Mike Pence (R-IN) who I’ve seen on television today repeatedly discussing the Republican Study Group’s “plan” for the financial crisis. And I can tell you this about Mike Pence: he has no idea what he’s talking about. The man is a fool, who deserves to be laughed at. He’s almost stupid enough to work in cable television.
This new GOP leadership is going to be awesome.
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Comrade Stuck
I swear, somebody should follow the House wingers around with a camera for the next year or so. It would be comedy gold and could easily replace the "Jackass" movie franchise.
That is comedy for most of America. In the south they could market it as "God’s Warriors Saving America From teh Black Mooslim Terrorist". Either way, somebody would get rich.
James
On my blog I’m keeping a new list of stuff to remember since Obama (we) won. Thanks to your post, Mike Spence is rememberance platimum.
eyeball
Here is how the smart columnists deal with the wingnuts. Keep then in their place, like zoo animals.
Jeff
Has he watched the past week in California. The culture war used to be very one sided. They now have a very pissed off opponent.
Dennis - SGMM
I for one am certain that those increasing numbers of Americans whose address is their license plate will flock to the Republicans because of their stance on abortion and gay marriage.
ninerdave
Yeah because telling people who they can marry and what they can do with there bodies exemplifies limited government.
jcricket
What does this even mean, in real terms. How does it translate into a workable healthcare policy? How will we get out of Iraq? What about the death penalty?
Seriously, even if I take it at face value, which I don’t, there’s a reason the GOP is out of steam.
Warren Terra
Three words for the honorable gentleman:
Demography Is Destiny.
If he wants to hitch his party to ideas embraced by older voters and overwhelmingly rejected by younger voters, I won’t try to stop him …
JimPortlandOR
There’s always Newt Gingrich....
Ringling Bros. Gingrich and Pense will get those elephants back in control.
Polish the Guillotines
The boys at Redstate have serious woodies for Mike Pence. That should be an off-the-charts barometric reading of how fringetastic Pence’s appeal is with the wingtards.
burnspbesq
Yeah, yeah, but he keeps getting elected. Which means that the voters in his district like him.
Which is more than a little scary.
Over 57 million of your neighbors voted for McCain. Think about that for a second.
Comrade Jake
This is the challenge the GOP faces right now. The guys who are left are the idiots/wingnuts who come from the reddest of red districts.
When Yglesias is on, he’s teh awesome.
kommrade jakevich
Awesome. The Repubs are rolling out their new brand and it looks suspiciously like their old brand, only dripping with flop sweat.
Here’s what astounds me: Surely, at some point someone suggested they forget about shit that has no impact on their lives what so over and instead focus on the economy, unemployment, health care, energy … you know, shit that affects everyone.
But enough people stood up and said no way, it had to be the sanctity of marriage*, or nothing.
Wow. Not even a mention of The War Against Terra.
Great. Brilliant. I’m convinced there’s a direct correlation between the frequency of fReichtard lip flapping about the sanctity of marriage and the frequency of fReichtards caught snorting meth in tearooms while wearing adult diapers under their wet suits.
*Some restrictions apply. You may have premarital sex, cheat and divorce as much as you like provided you attend the right church and only screw, cheat on and divorce members of the opposite sex.
Lesley
From http://ideas.rebuildtheparty.com/ – a menagerie of wingnut notions not good enough to be called ideas – is this suggestion:
Because telling people who to have dinner with is the antithesis of babysitting.
I really hope these tools keep this shit up, because the sinkhole they are in will only deepen.
Comrade Jake
Also, in case you missed it, our buddy Eric Cantor was also on Fox News this AM along with Pence. Think Progress has some video.
This is what’s left of the GOP in Congress: blabbering idiots. If Cantor acquires some kind of leadership role, they are so far into the rot it’ll be a highly entertaining four years.
Polish the Guillotines
@ninerdave:
It does as long as you’re limiting government to one or two quotes from the Literally True Conservative Evangelical Christian Bible™.
Calouste
The sanctity of marriage as examplified by Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giulliani, Bob Dole, Ronny Reagan and John McCain?
Any Republican divorcees I have missed?
Sanctity bonus points for shagging the mistress before the divorce is final. Also sanctity bonus points for marrying your second cousin or your high school teacher. Possible extra sanctity bonus points for marrying a divorcee, specially as your first wife.
Josh Hueco
I don’t know if other BJers have noticed, but John has ‘Calvinists 4 Conservatism’ as a new blog that is monitored and mocked as necessary. I recommend y’all check it out. Priceless.
kommrade jakevich
@Calouste: Quadruple points for getting a divorce while the spouse is critically ill.
Bwa ha ha ha!
Oh wait. There’s no mention of actually taking responsibility. Never mind.
Comrade Kevin
"the sanctity of marriage"
Whenever someone is given that line, they ought to ask the wingnut if that includes banning divorce. If so, how does that square with John McCain being the 2008 Republican nominee for President?
fuddmain
@Josh Hueco:
How cool is it that site has a page titled Disclaimer: This Website Is No Joke.
How could you take any website seriously that suggests Alan Keyes would have beaten Obama in the presidential election?
I’ll be chuckling all night.
AhabTRuler
@Josh Hueco: You have to love a website that features:
Edit: D’oh!
Bonus from that page:
Comrade Stuck
@Josh Hueco:
Oh, that’s our new Spoof troll Objective Scrutinizer’s blog. A very bright bulb if there ever was one. :)
I’m wondering if DougJ hasn’t gone public with his own blog. He hasn’t been around much at least as himself lately.
AhabTRuler
More Fun:
This is true.
Josh Hueco
Haha…So that’s why they crucified Jesus.
EDIT: Are the SadlyNauts aware of this blog yet?
Comrade Jake
@Josh Hueco:
That website is comedy gold. The wingnut is strong with those folks.
kommrade jakevich
@Comrade Kevin: In some cases the answer would be yes.
We have got to get these people a bigger microphone.
ninerdave
@Polish the Guillotines:
That seriously must be the smallest bible on earth.
Notorious P.A.T.
Was Pense the knob who said the Republicans can win over Latino voters by "making them taxpayers"?
"Si senor, eef we ees no longer da free loaders, un gots de yobs, we likah dee Republicanos."
Ed Marshall
How could you take any website seriously that suggests Alan Keyes would have beaten Obama in the presidential election?
Did anyone bother to point out there actually was a Keyes vs. Obama election?
Comrade Jake
No Quarter needs a similar disclaimer. Seriously, read the latest screed from Larry "I’m insane!" Johnson, and see if you can make it more than halfway through without laughing your ass off.
Roger Moore
@Ed Marshall:
Yeah, but that wasn’t in the Real America. Keys would have won if it had been a national election.
Wow. I was almost able to say that with a straight face.
ilsita
@ninerdave:
Oh man, this is something that drives me crazy, and I’d so love an answer to it.
When I heard McCain’s health insurance plan, I got worried. I’m self-employed and pay for my insurance myself, and I don’t pay anywhere near $5000 a year for it. And it’s pretty good. I asked a Republican "What will prevent my insurance company from taking advantage of the $5000 by raising my rates?" He said, "Silly girl, the free market competition will prevent that. They want to keep your business." (Well, that doesn’t answer the question, though, because all he could offer for assurance was a theory and a gamble.)
However, if they are so committed to this self-policing theory of theirs, then why the hell don’t they extend their theory to include human behavior? They trust that our inherent self-interest will provide all the regulation we need to keep the marketplace fair. But they do not trust that this very self-interest will also maintain our social standards (Except where guns are concerned. I can’t be trusted with my vagina, but I can be trusted with an uzi. (Hmm… I think I’m going to print up a bumper sticker that says, "UZI OUT OF MY UTERUS," and stick it on Ted Nugent’s Humvee.))
OK, I can’t help ranting, but really, I want to know how they reconcile this. Has anyone heard them try? I mean, this quote by Pence just exposes the utter lunacy they must embrace… Unless they have some kind of rational explanation for why people can be trusted with money, the environment, guns, but that all holy hell will break loose if they add one’s own personal space to that lineup.
I can answer the question for myself in all kinds of snotty or psychoanalytical ways, but I want to know what they say.
Josh Hueco
@Roger Moore:
/wingnuts rush to computers, pound out blog entries raising "new questions that need to be answered" about B. Hussein Obama’s residency in Not America†.
† – Meaning Chicago, which is a wonderful city. But the rest of the state kinda blows, esp. the southern part. We can give that back to France/Britain/the Indians/whoever.
===
"I think I’m going to print up a bumper sticker that says, "UZI OUT OF MY UTERUS," and stick it on Ted Nugent’s Humvee."
I live a couple miles from Uncle Ted. That can be arranged.
Jeffrey
What the…:
Oh, COME ON. No way this guy is for real.
Ed Marshall
Has any of the rest of America seen the Obama/Keyes debate? That’s quite something to behold. Looking back on it Obama must have felt put upon to even pretend he needed to campaign against this guy.
My idiotic state senator was the guy who brought Keyes in and I’m sure he had the same idiotic "We could get our own midget! Even shorter than his!" logic going on.
demimondian
@Jeffrey:
Don’t you wish? Sadly, you’re wrong; he’s for real.
LAYDIEZ AND GENNLMEN, please allow me to introduce you to … Blogs 4 Brownback and it’s moderately demented, and thoroughly evil, proprietor, Psycheout.
Welcome back, Psicko. Words cannot express the impure and completely mitigated pleasure I take at your return to BJuice.
phobos
@Comrade Stuck:
I was wondering what Psycheout was up to these days. I’ve heard rumors that he was a fast runner.
In related news, P.J. O’Rourke isn’t as funny as as I remember him.
ninerdave
@ilsita:
They don’t. In case you haven’t noticed the wingnuts live in a highly compartmental world. Each belief is neat and tidy and kept in it’s own lock box away from all the others.
Read.
This is precisely why, until the adults can take charge of the party again, they’ll be out wondering aimlessly in the wilderness, wondering what happened to small government at the same time lamenting that the fags taking over and people are fornicating for fun.
You see if McCain had only run harder to the right, the liberal media wasn’t against them, Obama hadn’t brainwashed the country with his empty "Yes, we can" rhetoric, the colleges weren’t such bastions of liberal paganism, and if ever one would just be a god fearing white evangelist christian such as themselves, Obama wouldn’t have won.
The GOP need to exorcise these idiots before they’ll ever retake the national stage in any serious manner.
ilsita
@Josh Hueco:
I love the words, "That can be arranged."
While you’re at it, you might install some of those truck testicles under the trailer hitch (unless he already has a set). I think the bumper sticker and the balls would be very complimentary.
pattonbt
When times are good, goofy junk like this from Pence might work some of the time. But when times are bad, people want seriousness. I think this is how Bush was able to win* in 2000. Times were OK and issues that shouldnt matter at any time could become more important because the important stuff was going along well enough for most people.
Part of why McCain lost is he could not grasp that people didnt want the jokey, frat flyboy right now. The way he conducted himself in the debates (especially the one where he wandered around, made faces and acted like he wanted to work the crowd in a fun way) made it seem like he saw this as a game to be won where Obama made it seem like he came to solve problems. The lack of seriousness is what sank McCain.
If the Republicans are going to have any shot in the short term they really, really need to shelf this culture war stuff. The more they mention it the more people get pissed at them for not addressing real issues.
That said, Republicans, please keep this up. Please make these guys front and center on every show. Please keep acting like the jovial frat boys who think the fight is what it is all about.
Polish the Guillotines
We appear to achieving maximum wingnut. It seems the freepers are so hopping mad over Fox’s hatchet-job on Caribou Barbie that they’re ready to boycott.
(H/T GOS)
Chuck Butcher
Every once in awhile I start feeling brave about my mental stability and I wander over to a couple of the Rightblogs and read the post and then wander down the comments. Cripes, I’d be seriously emabarrassed if I got those kinds of things on my blog. I don’t get many comments but they don’t descend to third grade education and complete delusion.
You read something from Larry Johnson and you know he spent at least 10 minutes of his life writing it and that’s what he gets back? What’s the reward for that mispent time? You don’t suppose he writes that drivel and then laughs at the people who comment?
I’ve been trying to figure out this congruence between Hillary and Sarah…they’re both female, is there more? Losing? He spends this last post calling McCain a prick and getting all knotted up about Palin…and somehow Hillary… and hating on Obama? Is this some kind of mindless chivalry that anything with a vagina is sacred and not to be desecrated by mere mortals? Is this some kind of issue that is covered a Psychiatric manual?
ninerdave
@pattonbt:
See Curt and his commenter Craig
Give you a taste:
and
I love Craig.
Josh Hueco
@Polish the Guillotines:
Wow, we’re looking at a wingnut core breach here.
@ilsita:
Nah, that’s what his guns are for. The sad thing is, I kinda like his 70s music. The-hopefully-someday-to-be Mrs. Hueco and I went to see him play Waco a couple months ago, and even though he’s pushing 60, he still brought a lot of energy and fun to his songs. That is, until 40 mph winds, lightning, and squalls put an end to the show about ten minutes after he called for us to be ‘killing more assholes in Iraq.’ If the lightning hit him, the Onion would have imploded from jealousy.
dmsilev
@Ed Marshall:
After watching Obama’s Senatorial primary and general campaigns, and this general election, I’m nearly convinced that a big part of his skill is somehow arranging to have utter incompetents and/or loons as opponents.
-dms
kommrade jakevich
Larry Johnson rants:
[Snerk] Bwahahahaha!
Damn. The combination of that line and his haircut was too much.
I’m from Maryland and I was more flabbergasted than disgusted when they tried to run a repeat of replacing Marshall with Thomas. The man is clearly out of his fucking mind.
Now I think I should send that guy a thank you note.
ilsita
@ninerdave:
But hasn’t anyone ever asked them? Do they not answer, or even try? It is toxic case of cognitive dissonance (and I normally think some cognitive dissonance is a healthy thing). But in a free marketplace of ideas, why haven’t they had to answer for this?
Well, yes, and here it is again: Everyone voted for Obama because he’s black, which proves that we were completely blinded by our liberalism, but also, it proves that racism is now a non-issue.
Ash Can
@Ed Marshall: What I loved most about the Keyes-Obama race was that Keyes was one of the most vociferous complainers about Hillary Clinton parachuting into New York to run in that senate race.
Josh Hueco
My college is the only non-Bible college in the universe to have a pro-life student group and not an LGBT group. I’m dying from an irony aneurysm.
demimondian
@Polish the Guillotines: Dude. Maximum Wingnut? You haven’t been following GOS very well, have you?
I foresee many, many happy evenings using throw-away accounts to bring Great Dyspepsia to the true believers there.
ninerdave
@ilsita:
Read the Altemeyer book I linked (it’s free). Explains quite a bit.
h/t whoever linked that book to me last year. Demi IIRC.
demimondian
@ninerdave: What the man said.
I don’t completely buy Altmeyer’s thesis, which I take to be more ideologically loaded than he believes, but, granting that, it’s utterly amazing work. He really does show that the whole "God said it, I believe it" mindset is just a direct consequence of a broader personality set.
(BTW, although I certainly cheerlead for the book, I think it was Tim F. who brought the book up here.)
ninerdave
@demimondian:
Agreed.
pattonbt
@ninerdave
Its amazing I know. What they fail to recognize is thats it not that Dems love that stuff, its that we dont believe in outlawing that stuff.
We recognize that humans are not black and white but full of grey and we shouldnt legislate like the world is black and white. Doing so only makes matters worse.
I was raised by old, northeastern Republicans and I still hold many of those old ideals to heart. I am no crazy leftist. But I have yet to be able to faithfully vote R yet because the party stands against everything it once stood for.
If this is the party they want to become permanenently, then they have lost me (which they bascially already have) and will lose the soft center of America forever.
That said, there will always be a niche in any country for a party like they seem to want to become (I mean 23% still love Bush), but they can only come to power in a parlimentary system, not our winner take all system. They are essentially banishing themselves into the political woods. The real world will continue to move further and further away from their little forest of denial.
And to them I say good riddance and do you need a ride to the forests edge?
ilsita
@Josh Hueco
Yeah, you’re right. Both the lightning strike and the testicles would just be gilding the lily.
Polish the Guillotines
@dmsilev:
I wouldn’t be surprised if his calculus is so many steps ahead that he figures "They won’t run a first-stringer against me because they’ll think it’s a slam-dunk they can beat the ‘black guy.’"
He’s campaign was the best I’ve ever seen. A textbook display of Pasteur’s "Chance favors the prepared mind."
The wingnuts just don’t have a clue who or what they’re up against. They don’t stand a chance.
ilsita
@ninerdave:
OK! I read the intro when you posted the link, but didn’t realize that I could download the book. I have heard of it and have been interested. Thanks!
Comrade Jake
@Ed Marshall:
Keyes is one of these guys who is able to take a ridiculous position and actually present a forceful, rational argument. The problem he has is that, at the end of the day, his positions are still pretty far out there in nutjob land. But there are more than a few folks on the right who think he’s a friggin genius, and just think his only problem is that he doesn’t know how to campaign.
James Fallows over the Atlantic had some advice for Obama in advance of his debates with McCain. He suggested that when Obama look at John McCain, he see Alan Keyes.
ninerdave
@pattonbt:
Sure. They already have essentially become a regional party. As the thinking, rational conservatives either leave on their own accord or are shunned away, the GOP will seep into deeper and deeper irrelevance. What will be left is the screeching wingnuts and their feinting couches.
While the sane conservatives might hang out with the Dems for a while, eventually the taste of liberalism will become too bitter and they’ll either move back and try to reclaim the GOP or start/joinanother party. If the wingnuts succeed in holding onto the GOP, it’s lights out. They’ll be added to the list of parties that once were. If I were the Libertarian party, I’d be trying to recruit hard and fast.
BooBooBear
Wasn’t our ol’ retired buddy Henry Hyde in this bunch. . . maybe not divorced but definitely a philanderer.
From Wikipedia "Hyde, who was 41 years old and married when the affair occurred, admitted to the affair in 1998, describing the relationship as a "youthful indiscretion"
I guess this is the Republican version of ‘I did not inhale’.
kommrade jakevich
@Ash Can: God told him to do it. Completely different.
ninerdave
@Polish the Guillotines:
I do wonder the opposite, Obama’s not going to the liberal savior that the lefties want. Look at his vote on FISA for example. I’m sure he’ll promote some progressive policies, but at the end of the day how is he going to wear with our base? He is after all pretty centrist, pragmatic, AND a politician.
If he really does live up to his promise of reaching across the isle, and I have no doubt he will, how is the left going to react to the give and take that’s going to require.
BooBooBear
I really see the beginnings of a new party. The current GOP is wedded/welded to the religious right. As one of their strategiry guys said the other night, what other constituency does the GOP have that can bring out voters in any kind of numbers. They’ve managed to alienate every one except the lily-white evangelicals.
I think the corporate/fiscal conservatives will eventually spin off. They will have to if for no other reason than to distance themselves from the ongoing wankery of the culture war set.
Notorious P.A.T.
Haha )
Whuh?
gwangung
No, he has the Batman’s ability to suck the IQ points out of any of his opponents.
I intend to be on HIS side….
Comrade Darkness
@ilsita,
Who the heck are you buying your health insurance through? I pay almost exactly 5k a year, and my reaction to McCain’s plan was: "oh sure, that would cover it this year, so what would be the provision for three years from now when it’s gone up another 50%?"
Bender
Meanwhile, in O-merica, dissent becomes illegal while the Obama mob cheers the brownshirts.
Don’t say we didn’t warn you…
Josh Hueco
I’ve wondered about that too. I think the left will have to pick its battles a bit sparingly. Obama’s politics-fu has been shown to be wicked deadly and I don’t think the Kos/MoveOn types will want to be on the receiving end of it.
Polish the Guillotines
@ninerdave: I’m not speaking so much to his policies (I’ve always assumed him to be more centrist than progressive) but to his political skills.
As far as how he does with progressives—well, that remains to be seen. I think the early signs are positive. He’s serious about reviewing the Bush’s executive orders and rescinding the worst ones quickly. That’s going to play well to the progressives (and the center—and anyone with a friggin’ brain).
Polish the Guillotines
@Josh Hueco:
Yup. Precisely.
This first year is all about stopping the economy from hemorrhaging to death. Assuming Obama’s able to get a decent recovery package through Congress and people see some concrete results (jobs, stabilized mortgages, a smidgen of economic growth), then I think the more progressive agenda items will get their day in court (health care being the obvious list topper).
kommrade jakevich
Yep. The old school conservatives can either go down with the ship (assuming the so-cons don’t chuck them off) or start a new party. After four years of three ring circus in the big tent, the GOP will be so toxic you’ll have to wear a Haz-Mat suit just to look at it.
I hope they decide to go with Door Number 1. People on the left who think Obama is too much of a centrist (which he is), can start their own party. Seriously, aren’t we the only democracy on the planet that just has two viable parties? That’s kind of embarrassing.
John Cole
Don’t say we didn’t warn you…
I am sure as a lawyer, you will recognize that local Philly police forces do not answer at all to anyone in the Obama campaign. Additionally, you will probably look into the arrest before you pass it on as fact that he was arrested for “wearing a McCain t-shirt.” Additionally, no lawyer is so stupid that he would look at an edited video that does not show the entire encounter and then make a judgment based on it.
Oh, wait. I forgot, you write at Town Hall now. Being that stupid is a requirement.
pattonbt
@ ninerdave
The problem you forsee for the sane Republicans in the Dem party now is the same they faced over 40 years ago. On their own, the sane Republicans are not a national party which can win elections.
To win then they had to include the southern strategy and the fundies. If they now go with the Libertarians (which I agree seems like the best possible fit of bad fits), they will have a whole different crazy to deal with (although in my opinion not as bad and as deep as the fundies, but just as impractical) and still probably couldnt be viable nationally.
To me, the Dem tent is big enough to include sane Republicans and sane Republicans can have a voice and sway in the Dem party.
But where would that leave a good opposition party? I dont know.
So the sane Republicans horrible choices become, stay with the crazies you know and try and keep a lid on teh crazy, become a national party that cant win elections or become a moderating voice in the Dem party.
Comrade Darkness
Our current economic situation is one of two: we are 1, in an 18 month recession or 2, we are in a 6 year (small d) depression. If it’s the recession, then, since it started q4 2007, we only have to get through q1 2009 to get over it. I don’t think we’ll know which it is until feb, 2009, post-holiday-shopping season.
demimondian
@Notorious P.A.T.:
Heh.
Taking away the measured, academic phraseology, a good translator would reduce my statement to "I don’t buy his argument at all, because I think he’s defined authoritarianism in such a way that it will be more prevalent in right-wing circles. I accept his thesis that there are notional authoritarians, but I suspect that his association of authoritarianism with right-wing politics is wrong."
If I were forced to make a guess, I’d suggest that authoritarian politics is associated with power—authoritarians leaders are drawn to align themselves with whoever is "winning" right now, and authoritarian followers tend to come along for the ride. If that is the case, I think we’ll see a re-emergence of left-wing authoritarianism over time; indeed, I think we’re seeing it already.
Comrade Darkness
Why would any self-respecting libertarian work in government?
demimondian
@Comrade Darkness: Well, we aren’t in an eighteen-month downturn. There are still a slough of poorly underwritten mortgages to detoxify, and that’s not going to happen for some years yet.
Now, it might be that banks on the dole could be told that if they want to get their next welfare check, they’ll have to take on some responsibility themselves to write those mortgages down and adjust the payments they demand, but I’m very skeptical. That’s unquestionably necessary, but equally unlikely…
Polish the Guillotines
@Comrade Darkness:
I’m cynical and I tend to think we’re looking at more of the small-d depression scenario. But if Obama throws down on the infrastructure rehab, people will feel forward momentum sooner rather than later, and public confidence is going to be as essential to a recovery as any bailout package.
ilsita
@Comrade Darkness:
Hi Comrade, It’s Mega Life and Health—they do health insurance for self-employed people. I’m paying about $126/mo for very minimal day-to-day stuff, but really good catastrophic and accident coverage. Plus annual physical and dental check-ups. I might not be as well insured as you are, though. But I think that my insurance wouldn’t be that much more if I increased my coverage. If you’re interested in what I have, I’ll give you the contact info… i’m at ilse (at) tuntienterprises dot com.
ninerdave
@pattonbt:
Well that’s my fear, (sane) opposition, is a requirement for a healthy democracy. I see it far too easy to squelch opposition from within your own ranks. It’s also easier for lobbyists if they only have to focus on one party, instead of two.
As much as I’d like to see a lot of the progressive agenda enacted, without the push pull, I foresee the Dems getting just as wacky, just in the opposite direction. Which would essentially leave us in the same place we are now.
Chuck Butcher
I have to agree with Demi that authoritarianism is not a sole perogative of the right. There sure is a hell of a lot of it there, but I’ll point out that the anti-gun crowd is as much an example of it as theocracy is. I’m not talking about the
"I wouldn’t own one of the things" mind set, that is entirely an individual decision, I’m talking about the "no guns" set or its variants. I don’t like authoritarianism no matter who is acting on it. While the loony right looks to be authoritarian almost as a whole, there are plenty of people who have latched onto Obama as something other than a political figure, a "Great Leader," sort of thing. Fortunately I don’t think there’s much chance of real damage from that group.
Dennis - SGMM
With respect, huh? I’ve only been around for sixty years and although I’ve seen occasional demands for unity on an issue (Ending the war in Vietnam, for instance.) authoritarianism is the one thing that the left just isn’t unified enough to do.
Comrade Darkness
I don’t count the bailout in any of this. It’s worse than welfare, it’s graft.
What you say is true about alt-a and option-payment arms still looming, and commercial real estate is starting a bad slide, but it seems to me that worst part of what was happening in 2008 was due to uncertainty about where the stinking paper was an how bad it stunk. More is known about where the trouble is, which helps a lot.
The other theory is that the recession from 2000 never ended, that it was just masked by cheap money.
Polish the Guillotines
@demimondian:
Not to mention credit card debt, and any number of credit-line based purchases (TVs, cars, etc) that are on the brink of default.
And then there’s the auto industry….
Ed Marshall
I am sure as a lawyer, you will recognize that local Philly police forces do not answer at all to anyone in the Obama campaign.
No, seriously, now all cops love black people and and only harrass and beat up Republicans. Goddamn, do I wish that was true.
studebaker hawk
Worked for Reagan …
Altemeyer’s general analysis is pretty good, but he seems to have a blind spot for authoritarian tendencies on the left. Maybe the lack of gun waving throws him off.
Comrade Jake
OT, but they just showed Joe Biden at the Eagles game.
I’m not sure if I’m concerned or comforted by the fact that he seemingly has nothing better to do.
studebaker hawk
The banks, by and large, don’t hold the mortgages – they wrote them, took their origination fees, and passed them on to be securitized. Because of the nature of those deals it’s not really clear who does hold them, which is what makes getting them written down next to impossible.
Comrade Darkness
@ilsita, Thanks! I see NY is off their list. Trouble for me is I need international coverage. And with pre-existing condition issues, I can’t just buy trip insurance per trip, unfortunately.
Joshua Norton
Uncle Joe (not-the-plumber) Lie-berman is "thinking" about joining the Repubs. In case no one has noticed, it appears he already has – quite a while ago.
Delia
Poor Republicans. Their lot is so hard. They do nothing but stand up selflessly for the rights of all Americans to wear McCain-Palin t-shirts and they are mercilessly persecuted for their efforts.
(sobs quietly over keyboard)
Comrade Darkness
>seemingly has nothing better to do.
What would he be doing? He deserves some time off. How anyone survives a presidential campaign, I cannot imagine.
demimondian
@Dennis – SGMM: Really? Here are some names for you to consider: Jonestown. Sterling Hall every morning. (Read about the New Year’s Gang in the linked article.)
We are just as capable of spinning up authoritarian figures as they are.
Blue Raven
@Comrade Jake:
I look at it this way. He’s the VP-elect. It’s a Sunday. He shouldn’t take a few hours to relax?
gwangung
I think a VP/Pres has few opportunities to go to a live game (secret service, security, etc.), so he really should take ‘em when he can…
Dennis - SGMM
@Joshua Norton:
That little shit showed his true colors during the election. Licking McCain’s withered nutsack was one thing, actively questioning Obama’s love of country moved Lieberman into the Hopeless Asshole column. I wonder if he realizes that the Republicans are going to hold on like grim death to their existing committee assignments. I doubt that either party really wants him. He is one of those rare Americans for whom I would lace up my Junk Seeking Boot.
BooBooBear
@kommrade jakevich
The way our system is made up, I don’t think you can get more than a couple of (viable) major parties.
I’ve had an ongoing debate with a friend of mine who thinks that we really should move to a parliamentary model. His point is, look at the variety of democracies around the world, very few (I can’t think of one) have adopted the US model, they are all some variation of a parliamentary model.
It’s a much better system to giving a voice to the electorate, especially for giving proportional representation to smaller parties, and also encourages compromise and coalition building. The only dysfunctional one that I can think of off-hand is the Israeli Knessett that can’t form a government without one of the ultra-religious parties.
TheHatOnMyCat
That’s why he got elected.
Getting elected president in this country is about a notch short of being an impossible feat. For a black man, it was an impossible feat.
Nothing short of brilliant pragmatic centrism could have succeeded.
Did somebody mention FISA? It’s like I said last summer: FISA is nothing … less than nothing … next to the importance of what was just accomplished in this country.
The people on the left who bitch about "too much centrism" are just like the ones on the right who bitch about the same thing: Fucking, irredeemable thickheaded deaf dumb and blind idiots. This is not a center right, or center left country. It’s a center country, one that can respond to progressive …. or retrograde …. policy, depending on the circumstances and the times.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@demimondian:
It’s probably best to assume that all the stuff you have now is all the stuff you’ll ever have.
Dennis - SGMM
@demimondian:
If you want to assert that the left is just as capable of producing violent crazies as is the right then I’m with you. There’s a profound difference between madmen and authoritarians.
Incertus
@TheHatOnMyCat: I figure if the Democrats ever nominate a candidate I’m even mostly in agreement with, then I need to check myself, because I won’t be progressive anymore.
Comrade Darkness
We have this system now. That’s why every bill has so much pork in it. Every rep is a self-coalition that requires a bone for a vote.
I’ve lived in the Netherlands for a time. Proportional representation really can go too far. You end of up with the long tail of wingmoonnuttia out on the edge of the list of parties.
Fortunately, I’ve noticed that when I’ve had less stuff, I’ve appreciated it more. I was raised by depression-era parents, and even though I don’t need to, I buy my jeans at the salvation army and my shoes (lightly used) on ebay. I like nice, comfy, euro-made shoes, so this is a remarkable cost savings (~$100)
Comrade Stuck
Having grown up in the south, I still cannot yet fully get my head around what just happened. Every morning when I wake up and I think about the reality of America actually electing a black man for president, I get a little knot in my throat of pride for my country. Maybe it took an economic crisis to tip the balance, we’ll never know, but a majority of the voting public looked past our racist past into a colorblind future. They didn’t vote him in because of skin color one way or the other. They voted for common sense for the best candidate and man, period.
Brian J
I’m only about a quarter of the way through the responses, but the notion that keeps coming back to me is how bizarre the fights the Republicans choose to pick are. I’m not talking about abortion or many social issues, but more issues of domestic and foreign policy, especially the economy. They keep referring to limited government as if the Democrats are attempting to regulate every sector of the economy in every way possible and jack up tax rates to 90 percent. In other words, they seem to be fighting problems that do not exist. I don’t see how constructing a platform in response to fantasy land notions about the other side is going to win elections, but the Republicans are more than welcome to try.
ilsita
@Bender:
Hi Bender. That video only shows the part where the guy gets arrested, but it doesn’t show why.
I’d be very open to seeing video of this guy, peacefully standing around, standing his ground, before he was just hauled off just for the message on his t-shirt. Do you have that part on video? Any eye-witnesses? (What would you say if I posted the Rodney King video in response? Would you point out that we didn’t get the whole story? Didn’t get a chance to see what he did to deserve it? That we do not know what cops have to deal with?)
This could not possibly have been a belligerent, violent asshole, who just happened to be wearing a McCain/Palin t-shirt, could it? I mean, I know you republicans are very big on "intellectual honesty" (inasmuch as you understand the phrase), so you wouldn’t just knowingly post a video that started at the moment of his arrest. You’d want to show the events leading up to the arrest, right?
Josh Hueco
My understanding of parliamentary politics is that sometimes you end up with minority governments (like Canada), or you have to create ‘grand coalitions’ (like Germany) that can circumvent popular will or dull the benefits that smaller parties can provide. Is that true?
demimondian
@Dennis – SGMM: Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I was pointing at the organizations which spawned the tragedies we remember, not the tragedies themselves. Cults and criminal gangs are the extreme expressions of authoritarian principles, and the Jones’ cult and the New Year’s Gang are great exemplars.
My guess, given descriptions I’ve heard over the years, is that most communes were essentially authoritarian, albeit left-wing. They didn’t spawn mass-murder, though, and so we forget them. Insular religious groups tend towards the authoritarian, too, and they come in both right-wing and left-wing flavors.
Brian J
That was comedy gold. I wish I knew where I could find the videos of Keyes trying to explain how Hillary Clinton but not Keyes himself was a carpetbagger. I think it had something to do with fulfilling God’s will or some nonsense like that.
kommrade jakevich
Exactly. Part of the nightmare that is the Bush Administration is they actively feed and encourage their little monsters. Any left wing radicals expecting the same ego stroking from Obama are in for a shock. He’s too practical for that noise.
Josh Hueco
@Brian J:
They do it because scare tactics work. Here in Texas people really believe that Socialism is upon us, just because Obama’s proposing (and in fact has been walking back away some from said proposal) to raise the top marginal tax rate from 36 to 39 percent. It’s what Fox and Rush et al and have been telling them and they have no basic understanding of politics or economics (because the schools would rather teach creationism and abstinence) to understand otherwise.
Delia
Yeah. I myself bought a new toaster oven about four months before the crash. I consider myself very fortunate that through the dark years ahead I shall have toast.
lethargytartare
@demimondian:
I’ll offer this as counter-evidence:
among those he links to as "friends of C4C" is a link to Exxon-Mobile. Hovering over the link produces the following tell:
"Don’t listen to the MSM _ the Valdez oil spill was a GOOD thing!"
hovering over the other links will produce chuckles of varying amplitude…
timb
Mike Pence graduated from the same school I did and his mentor as an undergrad is the best History professor I ever had. Nonetheless, he’s an originalist, American exceptionalism wingnut and Pence never flew far away. He is currently the representative of a pretty rural district (the ones my parents live in), but prior to being elected to this district he ran in the Southeastern part of the state and made a name for himself by showing TV ads featuring actual pictures of aborted fetuses. Even in Indiana that ain’t cool!
He brought himself back to political viability by becoming a talk show host who ruthlessly stole from Limbaugh. He is concentrated wingnut through and through.
demimondian
@kommrade jakevich:
From your lips to God’s ears (or, if you prefer, FSM’s noodly appendages.)
demimondian
Fixt for accuracy.
Delia
@Josh Hueco:
Well, I consider that part of the master plan of turning the schools into dreck so that the graduates can be told any old piece of crap the masters want as long as they pin a flag on it and say it with the right accent. Possibly the rot has been caught in time, but with the economic disaster upon us it’s a bit hard to tell.
Comrade Stuck
@Delia:
Let’s all have a toast to that.
tavella
Italy. And considering the American tendency for some really crazy ass splinters, I’m no fan of Parliament for us.
Instant Run-Off Voting is definitely interesting as a method of allowing more third party representation (i.e., people can vote their true interests instead of being forced to vote strategically for one of the two majority parties.) But I much prefer a system where the nightmarish far reaches of the Republican party are subdued at least marginally, instead of Crazy Christian Splinter Party holding out for god knows what.
demimondian
@lethargytartare: Listen, this guy published along with someone who honestly believes that heliocentrism is an atheist plot to destroy Western Civilization.
No, dude, I am not joking; here’s the original posting. Of course, it’s also possible that O.S. is Sisyphus instead of Psycheout.
ilsita
@demimondian:
Can you elaborate?
Ed Marshall
Well, they could, a Labour government could chose instead to grab one of the Arab/Arab-Jewish parties. The fact that the entire history of Israeli politics is finding some way to keep Arabs out of the government sort of gives lie to the whole "only democracy in the middle east", but it would be possible if the place didn’t have sort of existential problems.
lethargytartare
@John Cole:
apparently at least one lawyer is (watch around 3:22)
I’m pretty sure the Philly police did the exact same thing with this guy they would have done with, say, a drunk guy wearing a Tampa Bay T-shirt wandering into a celebrating crowd with a sword pommel sticking out of his shirt on October 29th.
Actually, this guy probably got off easy compared to my hypothetical.
Delia
Maybe Chuck Butcher will correct me, but in Oregon it looks like the reason Jeff Merkley won the Senate seat may be because so many people voted for the
Loony PartyConstitution Party candidate instead of Gordon Smith.demimondian
@ilsita: I see the emergence of an increasingly intolerant strain of groupthink in a number of groups on the left. For instance, dKos is increasingly intolerant of questions about the best way to define "more and better Democrats"—not because Kos himself is intolerant, or because the FP-ers are, but because there are a great many ditto-heads running around abusing HR mods. Such behavior is symptomatic of authoritarian followers, and where there are followers to be led, leaders will soon be found.
(And before you accuse me of doing the same thing here, I would be absolutely guilty as charged if I had any influence over the discussion. I’m not at all worried about that happening, however, so I think we’re safe.)
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@kommrade jakevich: Any left wing radicals expecting the same ego stroking from Obama are in for a shock. He’s too practical for that noise.
George Soros will continue to bankroll the leftie blogs, no fear.
Comrade Darkness
@Josh Hueco,
Yes, but details about how parties and their representatives are proportioned causes some major differences in how many tiny crazy parties there are. Here is a simple summary of coalitions with some examples. In my meager observations, coalitions are too often held together by dilution of policy to the point of ineffectiveness. That and a lot of outright pork and/or policy bones get thrown, disproportionately, to the minor parties, who in a fit of voting blackmail can constantly threaten to bolt. One vote going down dissolves the government and forces an election, so the coalition has to hold.
I’ve lived in both systems. Ours seems easier to repair in a time of crisis. Something I guess we’re testing right now.
For example, in the Netherlands. The Party for Animals has 2 seats. I’m all for animals, and all, but really.
ninerdave
@demimondian:
Charles Manson ring a bell?
Dennis - SGMM
Just as no doctor would look at an edited video of Terry Schiavo and make a diagnosis.
demimondian
@ninerdave: You know what? I had the Manson Family in my initial draft, but then concluded that I didn’t know enough about his politics to make the argument stand up.
ninerdave
@demimondian:
Which was and still the post that is the shining example the insanity of the wingnuts.
lethargytartare
@demimondian:
wait, are you telling me Blogs4Brownback is not satire?
Dennis - SGMM
@demimondian:
The swastika he carved into his forehead may be a tip.
Ed Marshall
Manson also endorsed Bush in 2000.
demimondian
Not necessarily. Manson’s purported delusions—or, at least, the ones he pretends to—have some focus on him being the devil incarnate, IIRC. Frankly, the man creeps me out, though, and I’ve never studied him at all.
demimondian
@lethargytartare: That is exactly what I am telling you.
Comrade Stuck
I see the KOS site as about the exact opposite of authoritarianism. More in the vein of anarchy. Or people with such individually fierce notions of what progressivism is, that no single leader could ever satisfy and corral them into following anything for very long. Authoritarian groups are populated with people that have weak sense of self and lack personally strong opinions of their own. The republican party is literally packed with these types, who adopt an ideology and dispense with personal critical thought, and when presented with a leader who at least pays lip service to the group dogma, they follow like sheep off the cliff. IE GWB, up until 2006. The left has the opposite problem of expecting their leaders to live up to every nuance of every ideal they personally hold. If they don’t, much concern trollery ensues.
ninerdave
@demimondian:
What little I know about him, I’d guess he is apolitical. However he started to gather his flock in the Haight in the Summer of Love, so one could make the reasonable assumption that he preached a liberal message.
OT: If you type in the Google search box "Charles Manson com" you’ll notice that Google suggests to you "charles manson community organizer" (I was Googleing for Charles Manson Commune)
If you follow the suggestion, the top hit is here our esteemed hang out: Balloon Juice
I’d forgotten about the "Charles Manson was a community activist" poster.
LAWLS!! Dem was the good ol’ days.
ninerdave
@lethargytartare:
Did you read the site? Jon Swift is satire, that was pure 100% unadulterated southern wack job.
ilsita
@demimondian:
Demimondian, I’m sure not going to accuse you of anything. (Way way back) In college, my mentor-professor accused me of being the next Camile Paglia (jeezusghod!). I’m not really very at party line, all I asked was that feminists cite their sources according to academic standard.
So, I get the Kos-dittohead thing. I’ve been accused of trolling just for asking a question, and I am as liberal as they come. Acually, do you remember that political test, were you answer a bunch of questions, and it will score where you stand on the political spectrum? I scored on the border of irredeemable moonbat bordering on libertarian. So, I wasn’t asking for elaboration so that I could jump down your throat.
But, aside from blog comments (we all have our dear nutbags), what policies do you think have the potential of being influenced by authoritarian elements in the progressive movement? I know that many people hold very hardline positions, but do you think that these positions will be influential, and if so, which ones?
Comrade Kevin
@demimondian:
Charles Manson did not and does not have any "politics". Have you read The Family by Ed Sanders?
Ed Marshall
so one could make the reasonable assumption that he preached a liberal message.
The whole idea behind Helter Skelter was that he was going to forment a race war and go hide out somewhere and emerge and rule over whatever was left.
demimondian
@Comrade Stuck: I didn’t say that dKos was an authoritarian place, nor that it was on track to become one. It isn’t, for the simple reason that Kos himself (or his deputies) have been very aggressive about shutting down movements in the place which are threatening to grow into monsters. I used it as an example of an place which could be a petri dish for authoritarianism in the American Left, pointing to the groupthink (and the groupthinkers) as the germ for the emergent authoritarianism.
Brian J
For all those who seem to be in the midst of trying to decide whether Obama is "centrist" or "progressive," has anyone ever considered that there’s a lot of overlap between what counts as "progressive" and "centrist"? Has anyone considered that Obama is well within the mainstream of American politics, the sort of position where policies from it would probably make most Democrats very happy? In other words, has anyone considered that it’s the Republicans, not the Democrats, who for the most part are out of the mainstream and on the fringes?
demimondian
@ilsita: Heh. I didn’t think you were accusing me of anything. I was trying to humorously point out that I don’t have rhetorical clean hands—I’m certainly guilty of using all the classic tools of the demagogue on other posters when the fit comes on me.
To answer your serious question, I don’t know what policies to "watch", and, in fact, would be surprised if there were any collection which stood out.
Authoritarian personality is a mind-set, not a single belief, and authoritarian leaders (to use Altmeyer’s typography) are often quite opportunistic about the policies they choose to latch on to. In fact, the policies of Fascist governments during the twentieth century were completely internally inconsistent; the Fascists "believed" whatever was convenient to gain power, and changed "beliefs" whenever it served them.
Unfortunately, all I’m able to be is a useless Cassandra.
ninerdave
@ilsita:
I think you’re asking the wrong questions here. Policies have nothing to do with authoritarianism. An authoritarian follows whatever the leader says. If Obama tomorrow said that we should turn all the oceans orange. The authoritarian would say FUCK YA!. Orange it is. And then justify their argument with whatever reasons Obama said the oceans need to be turned orange.
It’s not the policy they follow, it’s the leader. The leader says X ergo X is true. Period, end of story. That is the essence of how you get to their compartmental thinking. The leaders tell them what is right. They listen and it is right. It doesn’t matter if what they hear is self contradictory, if the leaders say it’s right, it’s right. You could tell them that 2+2 = 5 and they’d argue it.
binzinerator
OT, but a funny animation over at Sully’s
Get your war on.
You have a gun, right?
Well someone from the campaign’s going to come by and take it, for the Give All The White People’s Guns to the Black People program.
And there’s gonna be new flag. America’s new flag is just a white flag but there’s a picture of a burning American flag on it.
Oh! And how old is your daughter?
Your life is about to get really really horrible.
And you know why?
Because Barack Obama was elected.
Damn that was funny.
Brian J
Maybe it’s because I lean towards the left and because I don’t visit the Daily Kos that often, but I don’t usually see the sort of stuff that most associate Free Republic with. Besides that, it’s a web site. The sort of platform that people use to communicate on sites like it means that if people don’t like what they see, they are free to start another forum. Isn’t that what happened when a bunch of Clinton supporters didn’t like the Obama love that the site was showing?
Comrade Stuck
@demimondian:
OK, But in order for a group to be susceptible to be controlled top down by a leader or leaders (Which is how I define authoritarianism), you have to have people who will shelve their own ideas for the sake of group unity and submit to the will of their leaders. The people at Kos and left wing groups in general don’t fit that criteria in my opinion. They may form movements and cliques out of some temporary groupthink, but that is not the same as authoritarianism. That is bottom up mobishness, that more resembles anarchy, IMHO. Authoritarianism is a top down affair.
demimondian
@Comrade Kevin: No, I haven’t read it. Do you recommend it?
Polish the Guillotines
@Brian J: And the hammer strikes the head of the nail.
This is why the remainder of the GOP is rudderless and doomed. They’ve convinced themselves that they’re the true mainstream thanks to nearly thirty years of focused propaganda. In fact, that same propaganda machine was pretty successful at convincing a significant part of the electorate that this was the case.
In any event, right now even a hard swing to the left would only serve to recalibrate toward the true center.
ninerdave
@Brian J:
Sure. America’s politics swing from left to right and back again. Usually as either party has a majority, it’s usually rebelled against. The "Grass is Greener" syndrome I suppose.
However, the GOP in the last 12 years has jammed the pendulum so far to the right, where is the middle I wonder? What do Americans really think? Was the GOP’s pounding a result of backlash against the GOP? or was it because America is getting more progressive. I hope the former, but I’m not ruling out the latter.
ninerdave
@binzinerator:
23/6…loved their debates in a minute. This however is onion hysterical.
Brian J
How are credit car debts similar to toxic mortgages?
Conservatively Liberal
I am a Shin Chan (on Adult Swim) fiend, so I don’t know how this one got past me:
Georgie Endorses Palin
Damn those people at FUNimation in Texas are a laugh! Lots of people think this show is aimed at kids but the Adult Swim version is anything but kid friendly. Georgie is the kid on the show who is a Reagan fan, resident Republican and everything liberal hater.
Why Shin Chan? Any kid who can do things with his ass like Shin can needs to be watched…lol!
Comrade Kevin
@demimondian:
Yes, I do. It has a lot of information about Manson’s background, where he got his techniques from, etc.
ninerdave
@Brian J:
Because "Trickle Down Economics" works, just not in the way it was supposed to. Mortgages are the "oil" of the credit markets. When that seized up the whole economic engine seized up.
demimondian
@Comrade Stuck:
Hmm. Actually, authoritarian cliques typically form cooperatively, self-organizing around a mob and a leader. Altmeyer calls out three primary features common to authoritarian personalities: (1) conventional, (2) submissive to authority, and (3) aggressive toward deviants and outsiders. (For clarity, Altmeyer’s contribution to the field is a quantitative scale which measures "authoritarianism".)
You need to realize that not all of those who join those cliques do so out of ideological aspirations; instead, some fraction join because they are authoritarian followers who are deriving satisfaction and fulfillment directly from the association. There’s nothing left- or right-wing about those needs, Altmeyer’s word play to justify the word "Right" notwithstanding.
Polish the Guillotines
@Brian J:
They’ve been securitized just like mortgages. $915 billion dollars worth. And the default rates are high which the banks are having to write off.
Brian J
In any event, right now even a hard swing to the left would only serve to recalibrate toward the true center.
Word.
I’m curious, though: what do you consider a swing to the hard left?
I don’t mean to sound shallow, but I watched two episodes of "The West Wing" last week that involved the appointment of Supreme Court justices. In one from the first season, the retiring justice said to President Barlet that he wanted to retire five years earlier, but that he waited until a Democrat was in office. But as he said, he got President Bartlet instead. I’ve often heard similar sentiments in regards to the Clinton administration.
Hearing stuff like this, whether describing fiction or reality, makes me wonder what a true Democrat really constitutes.
Comrade Darkness
They aren’t supposed to be the same. They are unsecured by definition, unlike bad mortgages, which were unsecured by short-sighted, blind, banker greed.
They are on the radar because people are beginning to default on them in higher numbers. The banks will undoubted whine about how they need help because customers are defaulting, but in reality, much of the debt has been revolving a long time and has been paid back several times over in fees and interest rates that would make a loan shark cry.
Comrade Stuck
@demimondian:
Not the left that I know. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
demimondian
@Comrade Stuck: Fair enough. I hope you’re right, although I remain deeply skeptical.
Polish the Guillotines
@Brian J:
Well, not to get all semantical about it, I said "hard swing to the left." There’s a bit of a distinction, at least as far as I’m concerned. Swinging to the "hard left" suggests (to me, at least), something along the lines of socialism, whereas a "hard swing to the left" just marks a sharp change in direction.
I think there’s clearly a range, but I think a common denominator would be the idea that you can utilize government as a tool to help ordinary people and move society forward. Obviously, people’s ideas of what it means to move society forward will vary, but one example that’s currently relevant is regulation of industry. (See the current unregulated securitized mortgage fiasco as an example.)
Brian J
They are on the radar because people are beginning to default on them in higher numbers. The banks will undoubted whine about how they need help because customers are defaulting, but in reality, much of the debt has been revolving a long time and has been paid back several times over in fees and interest rates that would make a loan shark cry.
But wouldn’t a lot of the people who have so much credit card debt already be in a bad situation? How many people can be left to fall off a cliff?
I like to think that most people who weren’t already in the hole figured out a way to get their heads above water and improve their situation, however slowly. I’d also like to think that if banks are really going to cut back on available credit, it would prevent people from taking on more debt, and then making a situation even worse.
McMartin
It’s way too late for this to be actually relevant, but Alan Keyes was running for President this year on the American Independent Party ticket – at least in California. The joy of voting for Obama instead of Keyes is no longer exclusive to a single state.
Brian J
I guess I should read more about this topic. That site, for this topic and for others, seems like a good place to start.
Delia
Well, I suppose if you’re talking about left wing authoritarians such as Maoists, Stalinists or Trotskyites it’s plausible, but it hardly makes sense in our current situation.
Oh wait. Didn’t all the American Trotskyites morph into neocons? Reset.
Brian J
A lot of effort should be placed into convincing Republican parties in all states to have Keyes run in their races. Imagine how many seats we could get!
Chuck Butcher
@Delia:
Yes, Brownlow’s vote was larger than Merkley’s margin. What that actually means is kind of hard to pin down. Cripes, Smith attacked Brownlow as being too liberal – don’t ask me.
BlueOregon had a big discussion about IRV which I think is another solution looking for a problem. I’m not displeased with people being forced to make ONE decision. If a Party insists on running people who most think of as a #2 choice why should they win and that Party be allowed to run such bad candidates rather than just getting blown out? Why in the hell should I have to figure out whether the Libertarians or the Constitutionalist is better than the other? I am not in this lifetime going to vote for either of those right wing nut job parties, not happening. If a Green or whatever wants my vote then show me why, not why you should get a part of a vote. Very seldom have the Rs run somebody I liked enough to vote for and then it was the Ds fault I even had to look that hard. The Ds deserved to suffer for that choice.
The rule of unintended consequences should have close attention paid to it, especially in the realm of voting procedures. If a Party becomes a weak thing through its policies why should it benefit from the #2 vote from the Party closest to it? That only encourages rather than punishes that behavior. You want the Wingnut Republican Party to get the #2 vote on top of its nutcase base? You perpetuate their behavior. They need to fail badly enough to change or go out of existence. fuck IRV and especially fuck top 2 primaries which OR voted down 65%. (IIRC)
TheHatOnMyCat
@Incertus:
I am not sure what you mean by the "not progressive" statement, but it’s an interesting one.
I think one of the biggest mistakes that both parties have made in American politics is conflating ideology and policy.
It is possible to support progressive taxation and be pro choice, to use two cocnvenient examples, without being "liberal." It is possible to be an advocate of an agressive defense without being "conservative."
The parties, as machines, have tried to keep to rigid ideological rulesets as a way to guide policy, but policy is like water, it flows where it’s needed. We are at a point where progressive policy is going to be needed and appreciated, but that doesn’t make the country progressive.
Comrade Darkness
There are anecdotal signs of that happening already, based on the getting out of debt blogs that have cropped up everywhere. Sudden 33% interest rates and revoked helocs do apparently motivate some people to get their financial act together.
The reason cc debt was mentioned was in terms of the pain to the entire financial system, not so much individual consumers. Not that they’re not important. They are easy to suss out, is all. They aren’t sitting on 400 trillion in unregulated derivatives so complicated only a handful of MIT mathematicians know how they work. All of this crazy paper has at the base of it (ponzi scheme, anyone?) some kind of debt paper. As the paper is degraded the inverted pyramid above it teeters and falls apart. The financial people securitized anything not bolted down and a load of things that were. But credit default swaps are yet another layer on top of that that’s been running in the shadows. Concerned citizens are looking around at what is following sub-prime down the toilet and estimating how big the ponzi on top of it is.
Sub-prime troubles are easing off. No small consolation. Auto loan debt isn’t the same as real estate. Since you can move the car to liquidate it, it’s less regionally dependent. And I think cc debt defaulting is going to be exaggerated for political advantage. The way the banks are behaving right now, it’s like they want cc consumers to default.
Comrade Darkness
Every time I edit, I get stuck in moderation. So rather than edit, here’s a chart of credit default swap exposure for banks.
Note: those numbers are in millions of dollars. So, for example JP Morgan/Chase at the top there is exposed to the tune of 91 Trillion dollars. That’s with a T. In comparison the entire GDP of the U.S. is 14 Trillion. The GDP of the Entire Planet is roughly 65 Trillion. So yes, JP Morgan/Chase is sitting on crazy paper worth a year and a half of the entire world’s economic output.
But no, we did not need to regulate credit default swaps because lord knows we don’t want to get in the way of financial innovation.
Brian J
The more I try to learn about this, the more I realize I don’t know. So perhaps what I am about to ask is a fairly easy question to answer, but maybe not.
Anyway, obviously keeping our heads above water as far as consumption habits go is important. But like many other people, I used my income tax rebates and my stimulus checks to pay down debt. Why is that such a bad thing? Is it only bad because it could have been used for consumption? I’m not sure of the flow of money into banks, but isn’t it a way of giving the financial systems money by way of paying back debts that, at some point, have to be paid back? Perhaps it was that there is so much debt that the money in the recent round of stimulus checks didn’t come close to making a dent in paying down debts.
ninerdave
Peak Wingnut? Pshaw…you’ve got nothing on my Peak Schadenfreude:
Title: Has the End Come? Is Barack Obama the Anti-Christ – Part I
yes this is a multipart series that I will be enjoying for it’s high comedy.
Oh! My!
Yet he’s going to do a multipart series investigating that indeed Obama is the anti-christ. I’ve died and gone to Schadenfreude heaven.
ninerdave
@Brian J:
Because the American economy has been artificially propped up by Americans borrowing. Credit Cards, Second mortgages, etc. The average American has been spending well beyond their means. Thus, if you are paying of debt, you’re not spending on goods. If you’re not spending on goods, you’re not growing the economy. This is exactly why cutting checks to the general public is stupid and a waste of money. Conversely, spending on infrastructure, creates jobs, lowers unemployment and allows people actually spend money they have (making the broad and probably wrong assumption that they don’t try to keep up with the Joneses).
Brian J
I guess it’s not possible to fully separate what’s good for a person versus what’s good for the country.
I wonder if it would be good if the government itself took on more debt for a certain period of time by sending out stimulus checks while at the same time spending money on infrastructure and pursuing other policies like that would make sense.
ninerdave
@Brian J:
To answer this question directly, if a person defaults on their loan, it’s money the banks will never see. It’s gone. For example a person cannot make their mortgage payment, they move out, leave the keys on the counter and find a place to rent. The bank is stuck with a property that is probably below the value of the money they lent the original owner. Even if they can sell it, they are going to take a huge loss, the value of the house they loaned the property at less the amount they can sell it for.
This creates a situation where the banks in fear, don’t want to loan. Since there is no money to be loaned, banks can’t sell their foreclosed properties, and a downward spiral begins.
Again another example of why cutting a check to people is stupid. While it might help the person with the check make one more payment, it’s just pushing off the inevitable.
You making a big payment on your credit card, just means that you are smart and a mench. It has nothing, and will not have anything to do with the larger crisis. It gets the politician’s votes and that’s it.
To really stem the tide of the economic failure, the government needs to stop the foreclosing of houses. While there are many thoughts on how to do this, I think the government should require lenders to renegotiate the mortgages with their customers to fixed rate loans at the current market value of their homes. The lenders should then be able to take a write down on the depreciated value of the properties.
While the current crisis can be laid at any number of feet: lax lending standards, uneducated home buyers, securitizing bad mortgages with good, kicking people out of their homes does no one any good.
Delia
Not only peak wingnut, but wingnuts with too much time on their hands. Clearly, Obama’s first priority needs to be a public works program to provide useful employment to the fighting keyboardists. I’m sure they will all start feeling much better if they get out in the fresh air, start engaging in some good healthy physical labor, and start eating something besides Cheetos.
ninerdave
@Delia:
NOOOOOOOO
Where will I get my entertainment?
Brian J
@ ninerdave,
I was talking about credit card debt, not housing debt. Does that change the situation you describe at all?
Martin
I had an extended discussion on the economy with my dad last Thurs. I pointed out to him that Moodys was reporting that the 4 things that give the best economic bang for buck were extending unemployment insurance, infrastructure building, funds for states, and expanding food stamps.
And what does Obama’s team announce on Friday that they’re looking at in a stimulus package: extending unemployment insurance, infrastructure building, funds for states, and expanding food stamps.
You know, it puts a smile on my face to not see ‘tax and cap gains cuts to encourage investment’ as the answer to all problems. The economy lives and dies by the jobs at the bottom – they have to exist and they have to provide a living wage.
ninerdave
@Brian J:
Well as far as I know, and I’m nothing more than a hack when it comes to economics, debt is debt is debt. In the current economic crisis, it don’t matter whether it’s secured or unsecured. Debt is debt, or more specifically lack of credit is lack of credit.
I’d encourage you to do your own research though. Kevin Drum, Paul Krugman to start with the liberal side of the world. NPR’s Marketplace is all kinds of awesome. Branch out from there. The immediate problem is the seizure in the credit markets, cause by the mortgage melt down. Example GM:
If GM cannot borrow money, to meet payroll among other major obligations they go belly up. Normally they’d hit up the Commercial Paper market, however that’s frozen up like the rest of the credit market:
So the unsecured credit world (credit cards) is one thing, and to insulate yourself from impending doom by all means pay off your debt! However, while personally smart, using your stimulus check to pay down your credit card does nothing for the economy at large. It simply insulates you from the the crisis.
ninerdave
Trickle up economics? heh.
Brian J
@ ninerdave,
Now that there are no more polls to check, perhaps I can split my time between this and studying for the LSAT.
I’m actually heading to bed right now because I am ready to collapse, but I’m definitely going to read the last few posts you wrote tomorrow morning.
About Kevin Drum and his site: I just read this article via his site. Something tells me it’s going to be making the rounds.
Zuzu's Petals
Apropros of uhm, nothing I guess, the latest update to PalinAsPresident.com:
BarackAsPresident
Joshua Norton
Hell, even the Chimpster’s dog wants out. As an unfortunate Reuters reporter found out, you do not mess with the B-dog when the B-dog does not wish to be messed with.
tavella
If you click through to the original, they had a few last changes. Be sure to click on the lightswitch, for example.
bellatrys
Dennis, if you want left-wing authoritarians, how about all the posters who for years and years keep saying we have to shut up and never criticize the Democrats in government, just trust them since we’ve elected them as leaders/they’ve been in government a long time & must be smarter than us/you’re a Purist!/we will be giving aid-and-comfort to the enemy etc?
They tend to be a little more polite and less bloodthirsty about it than the rightwingers, but it’s the same "sit down/shut up/trust the grownups in charge" mentality that RedState et al have accorded to Bushco for all these years.
I also think there are fewer of them, proportionately, given the respective herd-o-cats/cast-out-the-traitors mentalities on left and right blogs (absolutely I don’t know), but there are enough of them that I think they could be as much of a problem as those who refused to hold Clinton’s feet to the fire in the ‘90s because he was "one of us" and thus allowed the Drudge-led right to successfully push their agenda instead. "Never question, never criticize" is a recipe for – well, what just happened to McCain.
bellatrys
Oh, and American Trotskyites morphing into neocons—how about the PUMAs at NoQuarter? It’s like getting to watch the mental evolution of a D-Ho or Podoretz via time machine!
ninerdave
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Yeah wasn’t that the perfect end to that site?
ninerdave
Well good luck with your LSAT!! and remember just as any asshole posting in the comments of a blog I’m talking out of my ass. But, if I can head you towards your own research and conclusions then I feel pretty good about myself :)
Xenos
I must be one of those left wing authoritarians because I can’t recall such posters. Maybe they are off in the Democratic Underground or something. I do recall some lefties telling republicans to shut up about their opposition to Clinton putting troops in Kosovo and Haiti. Nothing quantitatively nor qualitatively like prominent and mainstream conservative blogs, think tanks and talking heads during the last 8 years. though.
So either I am guilty of severe bias myself, or you are full of it.
Xenos
@Brian J: Make sure to read ‘Planet Law School’ before you matriculate. You need to be aware that the law school industry is producing more lawyers than the economy can support, and forcing crazy debt on way too many graduates. Have plans B, C, and D ready before you go.
D-Chance.
From GOP to FPP.
Fail.
Calouste
People higher up on this thread are mixing up the parliamentary system with proportional representation. The characteristic of a parliamentary system is that the head of government is elected by and from the parliamentarians, and not directly by the electorate, and that his or her position is dependent on the continuing approval of parliament. Proportional representation means that the representation of each party in parliament is derived directly from the proportion of the popular vote they get, rather than having districts each choose a separate representative.
Even though they quite often go together, there are exceptions. For example the UK has a straightforward first-past-the-post system similar to that used for the US House of Representatives, and Ireland uses a modified district system, where each district has three or four seats.
kommrade jakevich
@Zuzu’s Petals: ARgh. Why’d they have to set it to music? Now I’ve … um … something in my eye … allergies … [snif]
Napoleon
Toles on the general subject.
Napoleon
@Xenos:
And it has been that way for a long time. Supply and demand are not even close to being in line.
Dennis - SGMM
@bellatrys:
You’re just plain wrong. A distinguishing characteristic of Democrats is turning our wrath on our own elected representatives. We demand that Democrats be able to bend steel with their bare hands and to leap over tall buildings without breaking a sweat. You don’t hear many calls for William Jefferson to resign from the right but you do from the left. Some of my own posts re Harry Reid have accused him of sexual practices that he is no longer energetic or limber enough to perform by way of castigating him for his piss-poor leadership. Democrats tend to write their idealism onto their leaders and then blame them when they fall short. Republicans tend to write their desire for an America that never was on their leaders and then blame the media when they fall short.
Comrade Scrutinizer
Morning highlight—-
Scarborough drops the f-bomb on Morning Joe. He was talking about Rahm, and said something about Rahm saying "fuck you" to other people. Total freakout after someone screamed in his ear.
I actually feel a little sorry for the guy. A little.
Svensker
The economy lost 240K jobs in October. How do you think those folks will do on their credit card payments?
Comrade Darkness
Of course not. The right needs access to "but but but Jefferson!" to balance out ten or so corrupt republicans referenced in any argument.
liberal
@ninerdave:
But there are numerous proposals to turn them into renters in their own homes. That takes care of the problem, and it’s not unjust, unlike the proposals that take tax money from people who were too smart to buy during the bubble, or too poor to buy, and give it to homeowners who are behind in their payments and banks who made foolish loans.
RememberNovember
when a pack of thugs can’t get their story straight, it’s time for the Big House.
bellatrys
Well, Dennis, I guess you don’t frequent the "Great Orange Satan," then.
Because there was an inter-recced-diary flamewar on this very subject, demonstrating it as well as arguing about it, for two days running post-election.
So yeah, you are a) biased, and b) full of it, yourself. Or just ignorant but willing to talk authoritatively, which comes to the same thing – and is indeed an authoritarian thing, and better suited to a rightwing blog.
(Oh, and I said that it wasn’t anything like as common as on the right, so you’re also c) full of poor reading comprehension.)
Jennifer
I’ve been reading the economic analysis here in comments with some interest. My own take on it, and I’m just a layman so it could very well be that I’m completely wrong, goes like this:
The economy never really came out of the recession that started in 2001, for several reasons: 1) the wealth gap had finally become so large that it discouraged or outright hampered a recovery, 2) productivity gains of some 20% since then were never passed on to those responsible – the producers – i.e. workers. What we had was the classic example of squeezing the turnip harder and harder only to discover that in fact, you really can’t get blood out of it. These two things worked in tandem to build the foundation of the mess we have now.
As for 1), think about a poker game where one guy keeps winning all the chips. At some point, the only way to keep the game going is for the other players to borrow from him to stay in the game. That’s where we were c. 2002. Too few people with too much of the wealth, which left too little of it circulating through the economy. That brings us to 2), via this route: by 2002 people were already strapped: prices were going up on various necessities and a lot of people were keeping head above water with credit cards and home equity loans, hoping for times to get better. But they didn’t. The productivity gains, as noted, didn’t "trickle down" – that 20% went into the pockets of stockholders and business owners. Meanwhile, gasoline over several years increased by 300%, food by 50%, home heating by 100%, health care by 100%, etc. The squeeze didn’t let up; it kept getting tighter. By the time we get to 2005, everyone is pretty much tapped out – they can’t cover their bills or borrow any more money. So we get a new bankruptcy bill, which says you can’t walk away from your unsecured debts, at least without forfeiting your secured debt (home). Put in this untenable situation, people did the smart thing – they started walking away from their secured debt instead.
Meanwhile, the people sitting on all the money have problems of their own – where to put all the excess money they’ll never be able to spend in order that it can earn even more excess money they’ll never be able to spend. Can’t make anything on investing or manufacturing, because everyone is too in debt to keep buying. So where to put it? Quite a few of them put it into the mortgage market, on the premise that "real estate is always a safe investment" because "values always increase" and "the investment is secured in tangible property." And under normal circumstances, that’s true: when default rates are low, real estate is a pretty safe bet. But what happens when billions and billions of dollars flood into the mortgage market? The law of supply and demand, absent any regulatory safeguards – in this case, demand for borrowers – exerts a downward pressure on lending standards. And suddenly, the premise of "low default rates" is no longer operable. Remember, people were already over-extended by 2002, and by 2005, were completely over their heads. And yet, for 6 years – 2002-2007 – we continued to hear this news trumpeted: "housing remains strong – it’s the engine driving the economy! While other sectors remain sluggish, housing is going strong." Well, what’s wrong with that picture? Here’s what’s wrong: how was it possible that people so maxed out in debt that they could afford no more cheap Chinese crap from Wal-Mart could afford a mortgage on a $300,000 house? (and by the end of the cycle, that was a low-end price, thanks to artificial inflation of values from easy credit and the fact that it was mostly "luxury homes" i.e. McMansions being built) The short-n-simple answer is that they couldn’t afford it – but they were being given loans anyway, on the theory that when they defaulted, the house would still be there and be worth just as much.
And here we are now. I think there’s an analogue in the macro sense as well – we’ve seen all this stock market "growth" over the past 6 years that’s really not based on anything other than productivity gains going to shareholders instead of workers (which ate away at the foundations underpinning everything) and shell games like the credit default swaps. There hasn’t been much in the way of actual value gains because some 50% of the participants in the economy haven’t been really participating in it for years. By 1998, the wealthiest 10% in this country owned 70% of all assets, while the poorest 40% owned 2/10ths of 1%. And it’s only gotten more lopsided since. Bottom line: consumer economies don’t function when half of the people in them – or more – have no disposable income. It becomes increasingly impossible for businesses to "add value" when their market is drying up.
We’re at a point where there are only two solutions that will bring back health to the economy over the long term: mandatory wage increases for workers, or tax increases for owners (the dreaded "spreading the wealth around" stuff without which we will no longer have an economy) or preferably, a combination of both. We dodged a bullet last week when voters rejected John McCain, because neither of these solutions would ever have been considered by a Republican.
Anyway, that’s my take on it, though as I said I’m a layman so maybe I have no idea what I’m talking about.
Napoleon
@Jennifer:
You have that exactly right.
Good post.
Dennis - SGMM
@bellatrys:
Um, you attributed Xenos’ post to me. Reading comprehension?
Bob In Pacifica
I think that opponents to Prop. 8 might have been a little too confident going into the election.
Having said that, there are now a hell of a lot of angry people in California, gays, friends and family of gays, and just plain supporters of the concept of civil rights. If the supporters of Prop. 8 thought that they’d just scapegoat gays and then waltz away then they were mistaken.
Expect a lot of bad publicity against the LDS. A boycott against Utah is already starting, and if you think boycotts by the gay community don’t work, think back to Coors. They went from Joe Coors’ public hatefest against gays to his beer corporation buying ads in gay publications and sponsoring gay street fairs.
Expect plenty of demonstrators at Mormon places of worship. Already the Mormons have had to move their services.
If I were in the Mormon hierarchy I’d be hoping for a swift overturn of Prop. 8 by the California Supreme Court. There is going to be a lot of damage to the good ship Bring ‘em Young before this is over.
Comrade Stuck
@bellatrys:
What a load of bullshit. So you claim to have the right answers and anyone who disagrees is being authoritarian, because er, your so right. That tells me I’m responding to a purity troll trying to self stamp it’s own opinions with certitude. Your type just wants to criticize any and every damn thing any politician does for some kind of high minded self righteousness. It’s not about holding pols accountable, it’s about misplaced conceit.
Face
@Bob In Pacifica: BYU - Bang ‘Em Young Uni….fits with their penchant for marrying 12 and 13 year olds….
I agree that these protests will not cease. Gay couples tend to be affluent (usually no kids = much more spending $$), and they have the means to make life hell if they’re pissed.
Dennis - SGMM
@Comrade Stuck:
Well put. I’m trying to figure out what GOS or any other blog has to do with the opinions expressed on this one. I stopped being a habitue of GOS, likewise Huffpo, and a couple of others when they started taking themselves seriously. Our friend bellatrys seems to suffer from the same disease.
demimondian
@Dennis – SGMM and @Comrade Stuck: I think you’re misdirecting your ire; I’m the one who raised GOS originally, and I think bellatrys was merely echoing me.
As for me, I just wish I could give GOS up. I lack the strength the two of you have, and I regret it all the time.
Comrade Stuck
@demimondian:
No, My ire toward bellatrys was the snobbish condescending certitude of his own opinions. It wasn’t about GOS or you.
ksmiami
Over at Sully, he had some post about how the Daily Show and other liberal shows are going to have a hard time in the new political environment, but as long as there are guys like Mike Pence around, I do not foresee any difficulties at humor.
Comrade Darkness
You’ve summarized a lot of my view of this in that post. I’d add that to your statement above a judge even ruled this to be true when a borrower sued because they’d been given a loan they could not afford even though they had admittedly lied on the application. The judge ruled in their favor on this exact point, saying the bank based the loan entirely on future value, not likelihood of repayment.
I knew it was a bubble, and so did lots of others, but I can cut some of the silly homedebtors a tiny bit of slack because apparently the entire financial industry couldn’t comprehend it was one either.
I’ll add one angle to what you said about consumer debt. The last decade, especially post-bankruptcy reform, was pernicious and evil. Consumers took their bankruptcy-protected assets (house and retirement funds) and exchanged them for credit card debt, which cannot be fully written off now. I really think the banks wanted this situation. I think they were hoping for a legion of debt slaves at 30% interest. They sold people on helocs with the notion that it was "dead equity" and you were crazy not to put it to use. People who fell behind on the subsequent double payments, dug into their retirement funds and their credit cards to stay afloat before finally calling it quits and walking away, utterly empty handed.
This massive transfer of wealth aspect of this whole thing really grinds me. Never, ever dip into the house equity or the 401k. It’s protected (in most states). You get to declare bankruptcy and still get a place to live and a retirement. It’s evil how these idiotic financial products were marketed. Yeah, people shouldn’t be weak and give into the sales pitch, but these are supposed "experts" that were selling this crap. Grrrr.
Dennis - SGMM
@demimondian:
No worries, Demi.
Peter G
Fifty percent of the population is below average in intelligence. The Republicans will always have a shot.
Comrade Tax Analyst
To borrow from Rosanne Rosannadana, you sure ask a lot of questions, Mr. Butcher.
But some of them have occurred to me as well. I try really, really hard not to delve too deeply into what motivates the Larry Johnson’s of the blogosphere. It usually just gives me gas and makes my head hurt.
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