Will God allow justice to be abused?

He allows what ever we allow, so why not?
Justice, what is that? Is it the thing when we put get the "bad" persons in to jails out of sight out of mind without any other purpose than punish them? Just throw them in and make sure they know that
society hates you.

Wasn't it Jesus who was punished also and he said "forgive them for they do not know what they are doing" or something like that.

It works really good in everyday life, instead of blind hatred try to remember that the other person thought what he/she is doing is "right" he/she had motive for the action - whatever it was and try to make communicate with each other.

Love not only the ones whom love you but also the ones whom hates you.

It's damn hard to remember love someone who hates you but it have always worked great for me everytime I made the effort to stop in situation and asked myself "What love would do now?"

Just my thoughts.

Neale thanks for writing the books and thanks for the movie CwG.

God wants what I want.

See you all!
Faith

If we forget everything we have ever been told about what God wants, what would we be left with?

"I don't pretend to know all of HIS motives. But I'm pretty sure he does HAVE motives.

God Bless!
Russ"

Hi Russ!

This is my opinion: the life as we know is God...expressed. Life is the expression of God. Without life, God would be only theory. With the entire process of life, God can be practice.

Every planet, every mountain, every flower, every animal, the peace, the war, the love and the fear, the greatest joy, the greatest pain,...all of this, is God in act.

So, if you believe this, what does god need?
She "only" needs the experience, to experience everything.
This is the work of God through all of us, and it is our work, through God. What kind of experience do you want? It's your choice. Your choice is the choice of god.

I hope this is an help for you and I hope you understand my english:)

See you
Faith

God wants nothing, God has no motives, God only is and because God is, I am. No, i cannot imagine a legal system that never punishes anyone for anything. If someone hurt someone else or does anything harming the environment, we the people, should have a system being able to deal with that. In nature we share all life and that sharing must be equitable but is not necessarely fair to all.
Langzaam

I don't know, let's ask:

Dear God/dess,

We live in a world filled with religions, all claiming to know Your Will and what You want. They claim to know and understand You intimately, so intimately that they have a direct personal relationship with You.

Yet, as I observe many of these religions it appears to me that their interpretations of Your Will often directly benefit the religions themselves. Or, more accurately, the stewards of these religions. In fact, I can't remember a single one of these religions who hasn't had a scandal over one thing or another, in the past twenty years. Money, sex, pedophilia, all the areas of "moral authority" that they claim jurisdiction over seem to have fallen prey to a cadre of errant priests and clergy. Was this Your way of revealing the hypocrisy within these organizations?

And, what would You say to us about the treatment of persons who disobey the law? What is it in our human makeup that wants to penalize, and ostracize, and brutalize people who disobey the laws that we agree to live by? Of course, it is notable that those standards are most fervently applied to those who are least able to defend themselves. Could it be that the prison system, the court system, the lawyers, the police, the jails, and all of their support industries are disinterested in solving a problem that they receive so much money for? The recidivism rate is upwards to 80%. What would happen if the majority of people who spent time in prison came out and became contributing members of society? And, how can we make that happen?

God/dess, I think You think that we are smart enough to figure this out when we decide to. I think You have seen the worst of what we can be, and that the best is yet to come. Thank You for believing in us, no matter how unbelievable we are.

Dear Neale and JenSuf

*******************
Who is God Anyways?
*******************
The first question that you and JenSuf have to decide on and may have a conflict with is the idea of WHO IS GOD Anyways?

is the God you are asking for Neale an external object? thus wondering if this external object will punish us one day. Or this external object doesn't exist in the first place "outside" of us.

****************************************************************
Please be clear: do you mean punishment Now or After life?
****************************************************************
Because, in your argument you talk about finding other societies with no punishment, that is Now. But yet you confuse it with quoting the Bible or Koran on Heaven on Hell. Two different arguments, isn't it.

Now, in your argument and questions, you agree to have consequences for people's reaction. I agree but not to stop at that.
You say also, in highly evolved societies (somewhere other than earth) they don't punish their people. Off course, because their people are evolved enough to be aware of the Action/Re-action. In our earth here, people are not evolved, and human who are committing crimes have to be STOPPED so they, at least, don't do them anymore.
I read somewhere, that 2% of the entire population of the states are the crooks and thiefs, wouldn't it be natural to put them in prison so others can live peaceful life? I am not saying they are treated well in prison, on the contrary, I think there is so much yet to be done so people make a turn around, but that is another subject.

Same thing exactly happens with God. God wants you to be aware completely of your action, however when you are not aware, you will have consequences naturally occurring, this draw the similarities between judgment here on earth or on another planet like you stated.

Love and Peace,
Mounir
niceslow.blogspot.com

Hello everyone. I am not sure if I am posting in the right area. I was reading about justice and punishment as it relates to God and His purpose for our lives. There were also some comments regarding whether we spend eternity in hell for choosing the "wrong" path to God. My comments here will be regarding the path to God.

Let me begin by stating that I am a born again Christian - wait, don't bail out on me just yet - I may be a bit different than most Christians that you might have met. Please hear - or read - me out.

First lets explore what is meant by the phrase "Path to God". There are two aspects to this path that must be explored. The first view deals with the "salvation" question which most Christians are bent on drumming into everyone's soul. According to this view one must accept Christ in order to escape eternal damnation in hell, and anyone who chooses another path is doomed. (I will comment on this a bit later).

The second view relates to having a relationship with God in the here and now. In a relationship we commune with God. We talk to Him, and He talks to us. Usually this happens during prayer or meditation. This communion, this relationship leads us to spiritual enlightenment, peace of mind, and tranquility in our lives. I believe that one can attain this type of relationship with God through any religious flavour out there. So, wether you are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, Navaho, or (insert your religious affiliation here), or a fisherman on a lake in the quiet of the early morning, you can attain this enlightening, peace gathering relationship with God if you are a TRUE seeker of God's path. Every religion, almost, contains some of God's truth. A wise preacher once explained it to me this way, "Everyone has different personalities and different methods of understanding. This is why there are so many different religions. So that everyone may find a way to relate to God, because everyone relates to Him differently". So, in seeking to have a relationship with God there is no "wrong" path.

Ok, now to tackle the more difficult and controversial question, "does everyone who does not come to God through Jesus Christ go to hell?" Wow, what a juxtaposed idea - that a loving God could condemn us simply because we don't ascribe to a particular belief. Here we are dealing with a completely different kind of monster than just having a relationship with God. We are no longer talking about achievement in life, accomplishing goals, or having peaceful interpersonal relationships with our follow man. Now we have begged the question, "What happens when I die?". Do I go to Heaven, Paradise, (insert your word for Heaven here), or do I go to Hell, Purgatory, (insert your word for Hell here), or do I just cease to be?

There is so much to discuss here, but I will try to keep it brief - plaese bear with me. I will begin with the idea that we simply just cease to be. I think most of us here understand that the spirit and the body are entertwined for a short period of time here on earth, and that at death the two separate. The body remains behind and the spirit travels on to other realms. Every spiritual person understands this concept. The controversy arises over Heaven or Hell.

So, lets look at hell. Is it all "fire and brimstone" as the Baptists would have us believe? Is it a multi-level chamber of torment like Dante wrote about? Or is it simply a plane of existance where we can no longer communicate with God? Think about it. What could be worse than living a human lifetime in constant communication with God then suddenly losing that connection - for eternity? My concept of hell, based on the Christian Bible, is an eternity of separation from Him after having known Him in all of His glory for a brief moment. That, my friends is Hell indeed.

Ok now lets look at Heaven. Is it a place where we all are given a handful of virgins? Do we sit around playing harps and singing praises? Well, I don't think we will get the virgins. I mean why would God let us do in Heaven the things that are forbidden in every religious text known to man? As for the harps and singing - fine for some, but some of us would get bored pretty quick if that is all there is to it. So then what is Heaven? Let me say here that Heaven is not simply a place. It is ALL places. The universe is much bigger than we inagine, and the physicists claim that there are many universes - not just this one. So lets describe Heaven simply as another plane of existence where our spirit may dwell. In that plane we maintain continuous communication with God, and not only do we commune with Him but we talk to Him face to face.

Finally, lets consider God. Who or what is God? I think that most rational people would agree that in our physical state of existence we are incapable of true comprehension of the totality of God. I mean we are talking about the Entity who, with a word, created the universe. Many universes if the scientists are to be believed. I will focus here on only one aspect of God, and we all must agree that there are many aspects of the Devine Deity. My focus is on the energy of God. Think of this : electricity is a blessed source of energy that enhances most of our lives. However, if we disregard its power, or disregard its governing laws it can kill us without regard for who we are, our religious beliefs, our level of spiritual attainment, or the quantity of good that we have accomplished in life. Now consider the power of the sun - exponentially more powerful than electricity - on the order of 10 to the power of 25 or greater, and our sun is considered to be small in comparison to all of the suns in our galaxy. Now consider the power of all of the suns - not only in the Milky Way Galaxy, but in the totality of the universe. Now we are talking about an awsome amount of power. Are you still with me? Good. Now lets consider the power of God who, with a word, created all the suns, the planets, the quasars, the pulsars, the black holes, the comets, the asteroids, the atoms from which all things are composed, and you and me. How much power is that? We can't even comprehend that amount of power/energy. Let it suffice to say that if we walked unprotected into the presence of that kind of power...... well lets just say it would be worse than free falling into the surface of ten billion suns. Instant incineration. That is the POWER of God.

We all like to think of God as love - and He is love; forgiveness - and He is forgiveness; compassion - and He is compassion; but He is also POWER, or energy. What if we need an insulator to protect us from God's power before we can walk into His presence? Does that make you angry? Well, no one gets angry because insulators are required in order to safely handle electricity. With electricity we need ground wires, grounded plugs, lightening rods, ground fault interrupt devices, and circuit breakers and yet no-one gets upset by the need for these governing principles/devices. So, how much greater is the power of God than the power of electricity? Why then should we be upset or angry that God requires a buffer to protect us from His indescribable power?

Ok, I know I have ben a bit long winded........lol, but these concepts are so very important that I couldn't help myself. Oh, one more thing - what if Jesus Christ is the buffer? What if the only way to walk into the presence of God's power is by protecting ourselves from that power through the insulator/buffer of Jesus Christ? Interesting question.

Ok I'm through now. Just allow me this disclaimer. I do not presume to think that I have all the answers to the questions of life and after-life. I have simply found a set of beliefs that work for me. If anyone has any questions of comments, or would like to discuss these beliefs I am open to answer or debate.

God go with you all.

It is as possible for there to be an eternal hell as it is for there to be an eternal heaven. But I don't think, Neale, that you grok that concept. Hell is not a "punishment" in the way you are describing for crimes committed during one's lifetime. My God is a just God as well as a loving God. Is the image in your mirror a male or a female? Or a genderless image? My God has no gender the way we know gender. Because my God loves me, God would not have rebellious/hurtful spirits reside with my spirit for all eternity. That would not be loving and certainly would not bode well for the peaceful, joyous place heaven is supposed to be no matter how big it is.
I can't believe that God wants spirits who cause, let alone revel, in sin to be in heaven. In essence, all sin is against God as well as against the victims. Just as all crimes are against justice as well as the victims. I'm sorry that words cannot contain better descriptions of my God and what God wants. Many have tried. But even that wonderful heavily-censored collection of books spanning many centuries of socio-philosphical concepts mixed with spiritual concepts -- the Bible -- it's usually misquoted out of the original context in which the seeds of Truth were planted.
Hell is an existence separated from God. Words like fire and worms and torment may try to describe such an existence. I simply believe that our spirits are given a chance to choose God (or not) during our corporeal lifetime. And the reason there will never be another you or me is because we are unique spirits that will either be be accepted or rejected by our loving Creator based on the choices we make during that time.
Without agreement on what words like "love", "God", "sin", "repent", and many other terms mean to both of us, any discussion about what God wants is kinda like the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. We have to know what we believe and not be led astray by clever words of the deceiver. By the way, ever notice that most evil characteristics are ascribed to the ruler of hell, the spiritual opposite of the loving God?
Likewise, because God wants love and joy, the opposite of love and joy -- including selfish desires -- is not wanted and must be separated, or exiled, from the wholesome environment of love.
Umm, one more metaphor: a body wants to be healthy and cells that contribute to that health are welcome by the body. Because of the nature of the body's realm, cancerous cells may develop and their numbers may grow. But when One who knows how to keep the body healthy finds the cancer growth will not go into remission, the wise One eliminates those cells out of the body as soon as possible and, hopefully, forever.

Dear Robert,
there are many reasons for the tragedies you wrote about. Do I know ALL of them? No, but I believe this: anything you do to another being, you do it to yourself: you're gonna experience it, in this life or in another and believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

What kind of life did Hitler experience after his suicide? What about Joseph Mengele? Eichmann? Stalin? And what about all the Gengis Khan's soldiers? They killed millions of people in their own land and homes. Everything produces conseguences and this could be one explanation to some of the things appening in the world. Anyway I don't think it is punishment. It is growth.

Faith

Solman, my understanding is that when we die, we are no longer human. We are spirits. There is no longer anything separating us from knowing God. It is not an easy thing to be human.

When we die, we retain our free will. We still have a choice. We can accept the flood of light and love of God who is willing to envelop us in peace, or we can say, "No thanks."

My understanding is that people screw up when they feel inadequate or unloved. In the awesome presence of God who is Pure Love, who would choose to hold on to the petty trappings of sin? When the veil is lifted, the truth is obvious to all. We will rejoice with Adolph and Mother Theresa alike.

Deb,

Interesting. We will rejoice with Adolph and Mother Teresa alike. What an interesting group therapy session that would be! One lived her life serving others, and one lived his life serving himself. Yet they both attain the same reward?

That, of course, begs a couple of questions: First of all, what consequences, if any, did Hitler have to pay for his life of nihilism? If Neale is right, and we can pick the exact circumstances of our reincarnation, what motivation would there be for people like Hitler to live more like Mother Teresa? Why should I be good? I know you will say something like, well, if I do something bad to someone else I do it to myself because we're all one, right? So why would someone who hurts the unity be welcomed into the same reward as someone who builds it up? Is that growth? Or is that insanity?

Myself, I would rather believe in a belief system that has absolute right and absolute wrong. That obedience, trust, hope, and faith are rewarded, and rebellion, rejection, evil, and wickedness are not. I don't want to rejoice with Hitler or Stalin or Mengele or Nero, not if they went into the hereafter unrepentant for what they had wrought here on earth. If they accepted Christ before they died, then I will rejoice with them, because they will have been made dead to sin and alive in Christ with their conversion. But if they didn't make that decision, they will have no part in paradise. They probably wanted it that way.

God bless you!

Chief1989

Sol,

Good questions! Let me just start off with saying that by no means am I perfect, either, so I am certainly not trying to hold myself up as some paragon of virtue.

That being said, I am looking forward to rejoicing with anyone who is there. I love and appreciate people who dedicate time and energy into serving others. But I think we get hung up on labels - I won't and don't regard myself or anyone else as a former anything, be that Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Mormon, Atheist, etc. There are only two kinds of people on the earth, the redeemed and the unredeemed. I don't where they're from or what background or skin color or language or anything. I am only a sinner saved by God's grace, nothing more, nothing less. And that is what defines me. I do not consider myself better or holier than anyone else, I am only pardoned because of what God did for me. And that is the company that will be in heaven, those who accepted the gift of God's grace. And I will rejoice with them, and will sorrow for those who had the means and the opportunity but for some stubborn reason never made the decision.

You see, Sol, in my opinion there is only one reason why someone who has heard of Jesus doesn't accept Him, and that is pride. "Jesus is the only way? Well, that doesn't sound very fair to me! Even if Jesus said He is the only way, well, he can't tell me what to do! I'm going to do and believe what I want to believe, no matter what He says!" Is it so hard to believe that the One and Only God, the Lord God Almighty, would make only One way to come to salvation? Is God the God of confusion? No, but Satan is, and the diversity of religion on this earth speaks to the lengths that he will go to prevent men from coming to know God truly, and it speaks to the amount of lies we are willing to listen to and believe. So those people who live moral lives and do good things but refuse to honor Jesus as Lord? Well, Jesus himself put it best, "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul? Or what would a man give in place of his soul?"

The truth of the matter is, Sol, that while many people talk a good game, if you were to look at all of the hospitals, orphanages, half-way houses, rehab centers, and aid organizations, only about 10% were started by people who did not have a religious affiliation (you can look that up). Add to that fact that a number of our leading universities, including Harvard and Princeton, were started by Christians. When it comes to "good" works and serving others, a lot of people give it lip service and might contribute a few bucks here and there, but it has been Christians (non-denominational, Mormon, and Catholic churches lead the way) who have stepped up and really put their money, time, and efforts where their mouths are.

Chief1989

Chief1989,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my questions. I appreciate that. Let me start off by saying that although I would probably disagree with you on most religious/spiritual beliefs, I respect yours and appreciate your willingness to explain your faith. If your faith brings you hope, happiness, and peace, then who am I or anyone for that matter to convince you otherwise. Having said that, I won't argue that Jesus wasn't a messiah, or the Messiah, yet I would contend that his mission was not entirely to die for our sins, but to teach and show us how to live while we're here for such a short time. Perhaps when Christ supposedly says that, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me," he meant to live like him to the best of our ability whether we call ourselves a Christian or otherwise. I think his message of an all-loving, all-forgiving God is still lost to this day. The Bible was put together by those who wanted power and control over people. Jesus' message that God is all-loving and all-forgiving seems to have been altered, manipulated, and altogether changed to serve the agenda of those in power. Love and forgiveness, the essence of what I believe Christ preached, does not scare people into coming to church and subsequently giving money. You need to instill fear in people to do that, and as we know in our culture and society, fear = big business. I couldn't imagine Christ walking around on earth today, if he were to come back anytime soon, telling non-believers or non-Christians that they need to believe in him and accept him to be loved by God. It is man who makes such absurd claims - not Christ or God. Is it any wonder that his message was manipulated to make him into a key to heaven or weapon to use against others who are different from them? This stage of consciousness had its time and played a role in our world, but now that we are in the 21st century, I don't think we are operating at our highest potential by maintaining a mentality and belief system that was established thousands of years ago at a time when we didn't have a complete understanding of our place in the universe. I would only encourage Christians to maybe place more emphasis on how Christ lived and what he taught rather than on the lopsided emphasis and focus on him just coming here to die for our sins. I've learned more about Christ from those who don't claim to be Christian than those who do. Go figure.

"There are only two kinds of people on the earth, the redeemed and the unredeemed."

If this is true then approximately 4.3 or so billion people are going to hell while only around 2.2 billion will make it to heaven. That does not sound like a God of love, mercy, and forgiveness, but of a tyrant hell-bent on destruction, pain, and sadistic desire. If Hitler were in charge upstairs, I am sure this is how he would run it, but then again it's just man's flawed nature and incomplete understanding of God that created this tyrant in the first place.

"I do not consider myself better or holier than anyone else, I am only pardoned because of what God did for me. And that is the company that will be in heaven, those who accepted the gift of God's grace. And I will rejoice with them, and will sorrow for those who had the means and the opportunity but for some stubborn reason never made the decision."

What about a young child in Africa who dies of Malaria or AIDS by no fault of their own, yet never got a chance to know anything about Christ? Is he or she condemned to everlasting damnation after having just lived through a hellish life on earth? For some reason that just doesn't resonate as being true to me and I would think to many others. I guess we won't even get into the millions that walked the earth before Christ came to save us all. I guess they were just born at the wrong time. Wow, that's too bad. Anyways, just food for thought.

Sol

Sol,

Thanks for your comments! I appreciate your thoughts. I would disagree with you on the Bible and how it came into being, but I'm not going to launch into that. I would just say read it with an open mind, and have a good concordance or commentary with you to explain the things you have trouble understanding. You would probably be surprised to learn that God spends a lot of time in both the OT and NT reminding people to help the poor, widows, and orphans, and for people to be VERY careful they do not take advantage of their fellow man. In fact, if you look at the Ten Commandments, the first four describe our relationship to God (I am the only God, do not have any idols in my place, set aside a day to worship and meditate on my laws, and do not take my name in vain), and the last six describe how we are to get along with each other (respect your parents, don't take someone else's spouse, don't steal, kill, lie to each other, and don't desire what your neighbor has [God is not big on keeping up with the Joneses!])

We can ask questions about, "What about little kids, people who haven't heard about Jesus, people who are really, really good but don't believe in Jesus" all day and probably not cover all of the material or come to any conclusions. Let me just say this: God is just. He does not judge with partiality or ulterior motives. He is perfectly good, holy, and righteous, and He will be the ultimate in objectively looking at people. There are questions that I don't know the answer to, and I have to trust that God will do what He will with perfect knowledge and foresight. I don't know what will become of this person or that person, I only really know the state of my own heart. I have to believe that God in His wisdom has provided for the future of His people.

Sol, regarding your statement that 2 billion will be in and 4 billion out, well, I don't know the answer to that. All that I know is that Jesus told us He was going to prepare a place for us, and that He would return to personally take us there. Think of it as a club that has certain requirements for entrance. And no, I'm not thinking about some snobby club, either. There are certain people on this earth that this really appeals to, and there are people who won't want to be there, no matter how wonderful you make it out to be. As Alfred the butler says to Batman in The Dark Knight, "there are men who just want to see the world burn". Those people would not be happy in heaven.

Finally, Idolhunter, God gives us wonderful promises that we will be able to recognize each other in heaven. We will have immortal bodies then, not the perishable flesh ones we have now.

Just my thoughts on this Wednesday...

Chief1989

I guess I find it curious that so many who claim to follow Jesus aka Christ refuse to acknowledge that He preached like John the Baptist that people should repent so that they MIGHT be saved, where even repentance is only a primary step in the right direction. People calling themselves Christians say Christ didn't mean anything by the term "repent" except to maybe stop doing one or two bad things and to believe that He was the only Son of God.
The corporeal life of Jesus does not confirm what these so-called Christians are saying. His life made clear that repentance included healing your own wrongdoing and then moving forward doing only what is right in the God's eyes (ie, your will being in accord with God's will).
Jesus preached repentance. He preached that a place of eternal torment awaited the unrepentant (ie, those who rejected God's will during their corporeal lifetime).
People who believe that what has been translated as "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light" means Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven must believe that the way he taught the disciples to pray (Lord's Prayer) is the ONLY way to pray! Are we really only to discuss with God things like providing bread to us every day and forgiving us like we forgive others? Like Neale, my conversations with God have ranged over much more territory than that!
Taking poor translations literally is bad enough. Taking them out of context is worse.
The same guy who said "Love your enemies" created quite a violent mess in the temple early on in His mission. Later on He also cursed whole cities that had rejected His message. He cursed them like Sodom got cursed.
The same guy who accepted the mission on faith pleaded to be excused from fulfilling that mission: "Let this cup be taken away from me."
The same guy who said not to worry about your physical comfort complained that even the beasts and birds had a place to rest when He didn't.
You possession-heavy prosperity-theology believers should remember what Jesus preached about riches interfering with our spiritual health. He owned no property and preached that we should all share ("He who has two give to he who has none" and "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.") While people cringe when I call this a communist philosophy, it aptly describes the communal loving attitude Jesus said and showed we should have toward each other as fellow citizens.
Picking and choosing from how Jesus SHOWED us the way is a convenient way to indulge hypocrisy. He said "repent" and enforced repentance among His followers to the point of rebuking them before the actual event because of the direction they were headed in.
Socrates and others had disciples long before Jesus followers. To be a disciple, one follows the disciplines practiced by the master. I'm disappointed that many who call themselves Christians have substituted Paul for Jesus as their master. And even then they aren't truly faithful to the disciplines practiced.
Know love and you will know how to "love your enemies." Know God and you will know how God is manifested on this earthly plain.
Again, as surely as there is a heaven, there is a hell. While our spirits are eternal, our eternal destination is chosen by our embodied spirits. For those who believe otherwise, an apropo quote of Jesus is "Beware that your light be not darkness." The same way the serpent said nobody would really die from eating the forbidden fruit, you are claiming that nobody will go to hell for rejecting God's will during this lifetime.