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Union: Abitibi tells loggers to go home

The Canadian Press

Company says government seizure violates NAFTA. ...Read the full article

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  1. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Well you knew they weren't just going to roll over and die. This is going to make a lot of lawyers very happy.
  2. Akbar M from Regina, Canada writes: There's not much chance of that. Danny's on a roll and Newfoundlanders are loving him for standing up for them. Even if NL lost the case he will be loved and has nothing whatever to lose.
  3. Cameron Jantzen from Halifax, Canada writes: The compensation arrangement for assets is heavy handed (nice speak for just plain wrong).

    I don't know the legalities, but from first reading, a lease is not ownership, and so the province is not nationalizing.
  4. Mike Potter from Hamilton, Canada writes: I love the way companies scream when they get burned. It's to bad they don't scream when they get government handouts.
  5. TIME FOR CONS TO WISE UP from Harper is going to sink your party as well as, Canada writes: Weren't there a whole bunch of business-oriented types here the other day assuring everyone that Abitibi is a Canadian company?

    If so, what possible relevance does NAFTA have?

    Anyway, the company should have honoured its deal if it wanted to keep these licenses.
  6. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Expropriate! Kick them out!! Consider a campaign to denounce NAFTA and get out. This is not Africa, this is not Latin America. We are not $lave$. Enough of that arrogant old world order that only wants to cru$h decent citizen$ throughout the world. More and more countrie$ are learning to manage without the imperial in$titution$ of the old world order. --- Expropriate! Kick them out!! Get out of NAFTA! Enough of cannibalistic, casino capitalism on the dole, con$tantly looking for bailout$ from the too $mall to $ave! --- $tand up! We are not $lave$!!!
  7. Zarny YYC from Canada writes: It will be funny when Newfoundland finds itself in a position where no companies will invest capital in the Province.
  8. Toxic Planet from Disney land USA, Canada writes:
    The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Williams can award Newfoundland assets to another corrupt capitalist organization instead. Abitibibowater you got fired for mismanaging those assets, capitalist losers like you can start looking for another day job, maybe you can get into the automotive or financial industry? Those capitalists have sound business track records, or maybe not.
  9. Brian Van Ezel from Ottawa, Canada writes: If they still wanted the hydro and timber rights, then they should provid jobs to NF. Pure and simple. Do they expect to get something for nothing.
  10. Save our Planet from Toronto, Canada writes: AB wanted the union to roll back wages! Imagine that a corporation demanding it's workers take pay cuts while doling out huge bonuses to the executives! NL should take over the mill - give the union workers their wage demands, and run the business. If it doesn't make a profit at least people are working and paying taxes!
  11. G. Veneta from Canada writes: Stick to your guns Danny! The only reason Abitibi were given these leases in the first place was to support the mill. Seems like a no brainer that these leases would be forfeited once the mill shut down.

    They also signed this agreement before NFLD became part of Canada so Nafta may not apply at all.

    Williams is an inspiration to Canada. He appears to be the ONLY leader that actually stands up for his people and for Canada. Canada needs more Danny Williams.
  12. m y from Canada writes: NAFTA has no relevance in this case.

    They signed a contract with the Gov't of Newfoundland and they breached it...so good-bye to your assets as per the terms of your contract.

    Threatening legal action is a puff of smoke....the state is the law so stuff it Abitibi.
  13. A Banana from Canada writes: Zarny YYC from Canada writes: It will be funny when Newfoundland finds itself in a position where no companies will invest capital in the Province.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Funny, that's been said before by the Oil companies. Sorry, but if the choice is do business with Danny Williams or Hugo Chavez, Danny still wins.

    These corporate types are just learning the other side of the rules, ie the governments that actually play by them.
  14. G. Veneta from Canada writes: Abitibi is an American company not Canadian. Why should the timber and water rights go to enriching Americans while Canadians are losing their jobs.

    These timber and water rights belong to NFLD and were only temporarily awarded to Abitibi as long as their mill was in operation. How difficult is that to figure out Abitibi?

    I agree with the above poster GO STUFF IT ABITIBI.
  15. TIME FOR CONS TO WISE UP from Harper is going to sink your party as well as, Canada writes: Zarny YYC from Canada writes: It will be funny when Newfoundland finds itself in a position where no companies will invest capital in the Province.

    =====================

    Please. People still invest in all kinds of places a LOT more unpredictable and unstable than NL.

    Williams has woken up to a fact that other forelock-tugging, Board-of-Director-wannabe Canadian politicos haven't grasped -- industries need resources.
  16. N. Ontarian from Canada writes: Danny Chavez apparently still thinks he can do whatever the hell he wants. The legal case for this should only cost the people of NL a few hundred million or so. But it will be all worth it, as long as it proves Danny Blowhard is right, eh?
  17. Raging Squirrel from Toronto, ON, Canada writes: Give 'em hell, Danny. I'm sure you have a pair of words for them, neither of which are 'Merry Christmas'. Ratbag companies like Abitibi-Bowater want to have their cake and eat it too. I doubt their case will go far. The Crown has the right to grant and rescind rights. If A-B is shutting down the mill, the rights should revert back to the Crown. Tough beans. Besides, will A-B be one of the forestry industry companies with their hand out for corporate welfare in the coming weeks? Would they use that taxpayer money to sue NL for more taxpayer money? Beat it and don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out.
  18. Vic Hotte from Kettleby, Canada writes: Obviously, corporations have been 'calling the shots' in Canada for FAR TOO LONG. Good for Danny Williams' decision to expropriate this plant's licences, etc, because Newfoundland's resources BELONG to Newfoundland, and Newfoundlanders can demonstrate excellent stewardship over these natural resources. Abitibibowater wants to exit and take 800 jobs with it. Bye-bye! If the east coast had retained ownership over the groundfish industry since the 1950s, they would not have over-sold offshore fishing licences to international freezer-trawlers as the federal Dept of Fisheries did. Local people usually understand the 'limits' of resources and how to allocate them. Now, we will get a chance to see how a province operates with the best interests of its citizens as a guide. I don't always like Danny Williams' little 'piques', but he is absolutely right on this one. Canada should belong to Canadians, not foreign interests who don't give a damn about the people, nor the environment. Look at Alberta, polluting its largest river, the Athabasca, and surrounding lands just to keep foreign companies happy -- and sending the processed oil to the USA, while getting stuck with the awful mess, slag, etc -- a future of nothing but clean-up costs and despoiled lands.
  19. TIME FOR CONS TO WISE UP from Harper is going to sink your party as well as, Canada writes: N. Ontarian from Canada writes: Danny Chavez apparently still thinks he can do whatever the hell he wants. The legal case for this should only cost the people of NL a few hundred million or so. But it will be all worth it, as long as it proves Danny Blowhard is right, eh?

    =================

    There's no reason at all for NL to spend a penny defending this (if A-B is stupid enough to launch it).

    NL can happily ignore any order the trade tribunal makes -- just like the U.S. did that with the softwood lumber cases.
  20. A skeptical MD from Canada writes: Hmm, lots of hysterical left-wing screamers here supporting Danny Chavez. It's an interesting little situation he's created here.

    AbitibiBowater IS an American corporation, so NAFTA rules do apply. Check your facts. Chapter 11 of NAFTA would seem to be available as a legal route for the corporation to mount a legal challenge. Unlike the findings in the softwood lumber dispute Chapter 11 disputes are subject to binding arbitration and legally enforcable. Some simple fact checking will establish this as correct if you don't believe it. Also note the defendant in a NAFTA dispute will be the govt. of Canada, not Newfoundland!

    While I can sympathaze with the Newfoundlanders on this one it seems possible or even likely that Williams is legally in the wrong. The government tried something like this recently with Alcan in Kitimat with regard to the Kemano hydroelectric project and lost in court.

    Yep, Danny's opened a real can of worms, which always plays well with the populist faction at home. It's going to take a passel of lawyers to sort this one out.
  21. Hairless Joe from Canada writes: It warms the heart to see an actual leader in Canada who is in it to actually serve the people. The BW company doesn't have a leg to stand on. The contract is very clear.
  22. Summer Blast from Ottawa, Canada writes: Danny for PM!
  23. Donald Wilson from Canada writes: Sadly it is obvious that many posters have not read the 1905 agreement with the predessor company to Abitibi Bowater . They never owned the property nor the forest that grew upon the property . The forest company agreed to pay 2.00 per acre rent and a further 50 cents a thousand board feet for any lumber sold . They were further allowed the water rights to two rivers to enable them to build a power station to run the mills with .
    It is A.B that is walking away from that wonderful deal - N & L are taking back what they never sold in the first place . And they are planning to pay a sum for the power station depending upon the condition yet to be determined .

    It's about time governments stood up to multi-nationals in support of Canadians .
  24. D H from Canada writes: I can only hope and pray that Danny Williams runs as head of the federal conservatives one day. They would have my (lifelong) liberal vote in a second.
    Keep at it Danny boy. Let them eat cake. Support the people who voted you in. Support them, their resources, and their families.
    Keep at it Danny boy, keep at it.
  25. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Danny must have been waiting for them to close the mill. They never saw it coming. Danny for PM.
  26. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: Bravo Newfoundland! It is so nice to see somebody standing up to the plunder of our country and resources by foreign scumbags. Every country in the world needs our energy and natural resources - Canada on the other hand, does not need them at all.
    Imagine, claiming 'property rights' to OUR NATURAL RESOURCES after closing down the mill.
    Kick the bums out.
    I dunno who this Williams character is, but he rocks!
  27. Dave Brown from Canada writes: Premier Williams is gonna absolutely kill the incentive for corporations to do business in his province. Why would any corporation in their right mind put up with this stuff?
  28. Bryan M from Calgary, Canada writes: Good for Danny. If Abi did sign as he claims, then he has every right to do what he did, establish a crown corp and ensure that the province receives the benefits. It's high time that people got it through their heads that they shouldn't be held hostage to 'foreign investment' and engage in a destructive race to the bottom with their neighbours by chopping taxes, depressing wages and giving away resources.

    As for companies not wanting to do business, well, live up to your obligations and things will be fine. Besides, where else are you going to go? Russia still seems to attract foreign investment, despite it's aggressive nationalization strategies. Venezuela would still get foreign investment if Chavez would allow it.

    Loath as you may be to admit it, a properly run crown corporation can deliver services better and operate more efficiently than private ownership. Don't believe me? Well, AGT kicked the hell out of the mess we have now in Alberta and energy prices have risen steadily since the government decided to deregulate that industry.
  29. Mike B from Canada writes: Danny Chavez will probably win the battle but lose the war. Your kidding yourself if you think big business does not notice these incidents and takes them into consideration when investing their monies. The real losers are the people of newfoundland and labrador in the long run, and that's sad.
  30. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: Bravo Newfoundland! It is so nice to see somebody standing up to the plunder of our country and resources by foreign scumbags. Every country in the world needs our energy and natural resources - Canada on the other hand, does not need them at all.
    Imagine, claiming 'property rights' to OUR NATURAL RESOURCES after closing down the mill.
    Kick the bums out.
    I dunno who this Williams character is, but he rocks!
    -----------------------------------------------
    Steve , you really don't know who Danny Williams is ? Wow didn't see that one coming.
  31. J A from Ottawa, Canada writes: Really bad move by the NF government. With all the problems around us, I wonder what Canada will become of after this economic depression? Probably going the way of Argentina and Chile in the 1920s and 30s?
  32. Percy from NL from Canada writes: I guess taxpayer handouts to companies are so popular that AbitibiBowater is trying to get their share. I'm afraid they're barking up the wrong tree (pardon the pun).

    This is a good message to all jurisdictions however about the quality of corporate citizen AbitibiBowater can become after they have made their profits from your resources.
  33. George Nikitin from Hamilton, Canada writes: Wow, look at Abitibi cast aspersions.
  34. Spence Cole from Vancouver, Canada writes: We might as well settle in for a long fight. This expropriation is just the beginning of the unwinding of many international trade contracts as governments move to protect their own electorate over the demands of multinationals in light of the depression we are now in. Even the mighty US is now abandoning global currency agreements by printing massive amounts of money to pump into the domestic economy.
  35. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Akbar M from Regina, Canada writes: There's not much chance of that. Danny's on a roll and Newfoundlanders are loving him for standing up for them.
    =================================================

    I'm loving him also because I am sure he got good legal advice before he acted and I think he is right. Our natural resources will never be for sale, NAFTA or no NAFTA. The Americans are always trying to screw Canada and I sincerely hope that Harper does not try any of his sleaze in this regard.
  36. F B from Canada writes: An interesting article today is that ABH, Abitibi Bowater will probably be kicked out of the NYX soon.
    Heck of a week for them no?!
  37. Tucker Clark from Canada writes: J A: You mean recession right? Not quite a depression yet. Either way...last time I checked, Nfld. is not a party to NAFTA, so who exactly is Abitibi going to sue? I hope they take legal action because I just want to see what will happen when someone sues a Provincial government under NAFTA. Probably going to be suing the Feds though...wow, Harper will hate Danny even more after this one. That might a good enough reason for Williams to keep going with it...pi.ss off Harper.
  38. dwight tanner from Canada writes: Does anyone recall the story of the two farmers who disagreed over the ownership of a prize dairy cow? Just picture one farmer pulling at the head of the cow, and another farmer tugging at the animal's tail, while there is a lawyer on each side of the cow milking it.
  39. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: Wrong! We got every natural resource there is.
    They got the square root of jack squat!
    No oil. No energy. No fresh water. No forests left. No nothing.
    You need our stuff? Get on your knees.
    I wish more Canadian politicians had the stones of this Williams guy. We would be much better off.
  40. Harper can't be trusted from Canada writes: Mr. Williams

    I don't know if you read the comments here but just in case you do:

    PLEASE put more effort into helping Canada rid herself of that liar on the hill in Ottawa.

    We would really appreciate it if you would help us get rid of a dictator.

    As for Abitibi...seems you are exercising your rights by contract of 1905.

    Good job protecting NL from corporate theft.

    A Harper promise is STILL as good as a lie
  41. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Akbar M from Regina, Canada writes: There's not much chance of that. Danny's on a roll and Newfoundlanders are loving him for standing up for them.
    =================================================

    I'm loving him also because I am sure he got good legal advice before he acted and I think he is right. Our natural resources will never be for sale, NAFTA or no NAFTA. The Americans are always trying to screw Canada and I sincerely hope that Harper does not try any of his sleaze in this regard.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ya Yvonne, it's harpers fault.
  42. Happily Retired from LupinLand, Canada writes: Hang in there Danny, the whole country is behind you, and next election you could become the first 'write-in' Prime Minister in Canadian history. The novelty of having a politician that will actually stand up for the people he represents is so novel that you are fast becoming a national hero. Good on you, Danny!
  43. j wilson from vancouver, Canada writes:
    Abitibi owns the equipment onsite. The leased rights are nullified because the company is no longer using the site.

    Newfoundland will end up paying the going rate for the old mill, subtracting the cost of Abitibi having to move it (thats how leased land works. You cant just leave yourshit around after youre done.)

    Abitibi may have screwed up expecting a different outcome. The reason the province leased the land in the first place instead of selling it was to retain ownership when Abitibi was done with it.

    Theyre done with it. Abitibi doesnt have a case. Whether the company is Canadian or US, the company has concluded the business of their original agreement.

    Shakes hands, go away, and see if the NL government will buy your old mill.
  44. Steven Koning from Bloomfield, ON, Canada writes: Under NAFTA a USA corporation has to be treated the same as a Canadian corporation. All the feds who are the defendants in this possible case have to do is state that they would also expropriate a Canadian corporation if it did the same thing AB did, and they could even pass a law forcing themselves to do so, to make it clear.
  45. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: To Zany yyc or whatever and N Ontarian.Do you two pukes have a vested interest in Abitibi or something.All you both need to know before you both go back to sleep is that a person in postion with some power to do so has taken a multi billion dollar company to task for breaking their lease agreement
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Steadfast, you stated they were a multi billion dollar company. Looking at their stock it seems they're in trouble. If their stock drops any further you could just buy them up.
  46. Peter Turner from Hamilton, Canada writes: Abitibi's threat to invoke NAFTA should give us pause. How is it that the State (our country) has yielded up its supremacy to a Corporate culture. In this case NAFTA should not apply, but on the whole most of our governments seem to have succumbed to this abstract entity. We are a nation and as such WE should possess ultimate authority as concerns the common good. Somewhere, we have drifted off into a corporate economy and, in the last generation (20 or 30 years) we have settled into a Madoff Economy (my thanks to Paul Krugman for the term). This is nuts. When Henry Ford built and sold cars, he paid his workers a fair wage because, as he said, 'I want them to be able to afford my product'. In short the wage created the possibility of a market.

    This 'modern economy' the Chicago school has spawned is just one huge Ponzi scheme and the results are that firms like Abitibi have this Lord Blackian sense of entitlement.
  47. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    If NAFTA's panel says this is wrong then it is time to abrogate the treaty.
  48. Percy from NL from Canada writes: “The legislation, which is without precedent in Canada, and is reminiscent of decrees emanating from jurisdictions with less democratic traditions, shocks common sensibility.”

    Wow, this AbitibiBowater guy is a real class act, isn't he? No wonder the company is not doing so well.
  49. Offshore Reg from bridgetown barbados, Canada writes: Coming from nw ontario, I worked for Abitibi in a mill and woodlands as a student and my father worked in woodlands for almost 40 years. It was a far different company in those times. It has always struck me as strange that when these paper companies close up shop and move on, that they retain cutting rights to crown land limits which they no longer need. It appears that Dan has recognised that and is simply reclaiming cutting rights given to Abitibi (a Delaware company now) which it needed to operate its mill. If the mill closes, then Abitibi (a Delaware company now) no longer needs those cutting limits and they are simply reverting back to the province. As I understand it, Abitibi (a Delaware company) will still own its shut down plant and can sell it off piece by piece as it has done elsewhere, and will still own the dam structures.

    The alternative would be that Abitibi, a Delaware company no longer in the paper business in the province, could sell cutting rights to crown lands which it apparently believes it owns in perpetuity, and which it no longer needs, to anyone it wants...Americans, Europeans, Russians, whomever. From my perspective at least there is something wrong with that picture.
  50. Henry Wojak from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: Maybe abitibi-bowater should reconsider closing the mill.
    If we had a prime minister in Canada we should be considering giving six months notice on the cancellation of nafta,like 'osama' in the U.S. suggested!
  51. K St-Pierre from Canada writes: Dave Brown- So long as NL has the resources/infratructure for business to be profitable then they have nothing to worry about. If you think companies will make some moral stand and move their companies to a place that is more expensive then you have no idea how business or reality works.
  52. Warron yu from Canada writes: It's not just property like this article would have you believe. It's anything that can infringe on profits. This has been defined clearly by the NAFTA tribunal in Mexico that can overrule our supreme court. Bill 75 will still need royal accent. We can't pass a law or even hold parliment in this Commonwealth country without permission from the Queen. For anyone interested, here is a list of other NAFTA lawsuits you payed for: http://fina-nafi.org/eng/triumvirat08/documents/NAFTAChapter11.pdf This list comes from NAFI who held a MODEL North American Parliment in Quebec City's city Hall in the springtime. How much pull will Canada have in a future Parliment shared with a country ten times the population and Mexico? NAFTA CHAPTER 11 IS WHY POISON IS IN TOYS. it is why BPA is still in cans and bottles. It is why Alberta will need a bailout soon with oil below 70$ a barrel. It is why Ontario's Manufacturing industry is going kaput. READ it Yourself: Google Nafta Chapter 11 Article 11110. The Canadian Action Party is the only Party willing to ABROGATE NAFTA and sit down for the next six months to work out a FAIR trade deal. Google them too. Wish GM, Ford and Crysler could sell to Asian markets yet?
  53. Warron yu from Canada writes:

    HATE GETTING SQUISHED

    It's not just property like this article would have you believe.

    It's anything that can infringe on profits. This has been defined clearly by the NAFTA tribunal in Mexico that can overrule our supreme court.

    Bill 75 will still need royal accent. We can't pass a law or even hold parliment in this Commonwealth country without permission from the Queen.

    For anyone interested, here is a list of other NAFTA lawsuits you payed for:

    http://fina-nafi.org/eng/triumvirat08/documents/NAFTAChapter11.pdf

    This list comes from NAFI who held a MODEL North American Parliment in Quebec City's city Hall in the springtime.

    How much pull will Canada have in a future Parliment shared with a country ten times the population and Mexico?
  54. Warron yu from Canada writes:
    CONTINUED....

    NAFTA CHAPTER 11 IS WHY POISON IS IN TOYS. it is why BPA is still in cans and bottles. It is why Alberta will need a bailout soon with oil below 70$ a barrel. It is why Ontario's Manufacturing industry is going kaput.

    READ it Yourself:

    Google Nafta Chapter 11 Article 11110.

    The Canadian Action Party is the only Party willing to ABROGATE NAFTA and sit down for the next six months to work out a FAIR trade deal. Google them too.

    Wish GM, Ford and Crysler could sell to Asian markets yet?
  55. F B from Canada writes: To Steven Koning from Bloomfield: What's interesting is that they will be thrown out of the NYSE soon, being under 1$. By the time they start any move, they might be out of business altogether.
    By the way, they don't have many friends up north.
  56. Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: Danny Williams for Prime Minister of Canada! We need a leader with guts. Newfoundland and Labrador, will you share your greatest resource? Down with Delaware.
  57. P Martin from St. John's, Canada writes: AbitibiBowater has a lease, the province did not sell anything to them. I hope that it works out for the province. However, NAFTA, as I read it, does not care about this. If you lease something to someone then they can treat it as if they owned it...and they can make you pay for it.

    Hopefully they lose out. The province did not sell it to them for a reason. That reason being that when the company decided to withdraw then everything reverts to the province.

    Good riddance.
  58. Greg Out West from Canada writes: AB urges Williams to reconsider ? Duh
  59. Howard Young from Canada writes: Mr. Williams, I humbly ask you to urge AB to shove it!
  60. Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    I hope the GoC will give Nfld all aid and support possible in this vital issue. Canada belongs to Cdns not to cut and run corporations.
  61. scott thomas from Canada writes: Abitibi broke their contract - run a mill in exchange for resources - forestry and energy to run the mill. No need for the resources if they're not doing the job. And if it falls any other way, then it's time to quit Nafta.
  62. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: .....a question of just who has the cojones to prevail....ball's in your court Danny Boy.....
  63. Wassup Widat from Canada writes: You heard the people Danny. They hate Harper because he is controlling and heavy handed. Instead , we need more people like you. They say he uses the laws to his advantage and damn it - he's a bully. Now Danny Williams - well you sure can't call him a bully, can you?
  64. Warron yu from Canada writes: F B from Canada writes: To Steven Koning from Bloomfield: What's interesting is that they will be thrown out of the NYSE soon, being under 1$. By the time they start any move, they might be out of business altogether.
    By the way, they don't have many friends up north.
    Posted 19/12/08 at 5:17 PM EST

    -----------------

    nafta is a law.

    By your logic I shouldn't be able to press charges if I'm broke.
  65. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Tucker Clark from Canada writes: 'J A: You mean recession right? Not quite a depression yet. Either way...last time I checked, Nfld. is not a party to NAFTA, so who exactly is Abitibi going to sue?'

    They'll sue Canada, Tucker, and to this I say, as Peter Turner already did:

    'Abitibi's threat to invoke NAFTA should give us pause. How is it that the State (our country) has yielded up its supremacy to a Corporate culture. In this case NAFTA should not apply, but on the whole most of our governments seem to have succumbed to this abstract entity. We are a nation and as such WE should possess ultimate authority as concerns the common good. Somewhere, we have drifted off into a corporate economy and, in the last generation (20 or 30 years) we have settled into a Madoff Economy (my thanks to Paul Krugman for the term). This is nuts. When Henry Ford built and sold cars, he paid his workers a fair wage because, as he said, 'I want them to be able to afford my product'. In short the wage created the possibility of a market.

    This 'modern economy' the Chicago school has spawned is just one huge Ponzi scheme and the results are that firms like Abitibi have this Lord Blackian sense of entitlement.'
  66. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Howard Young from Canada writes: Mr. Williams, I humbly ask you to urge AB to shove it!
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Howard, I think he already has.
  67. John Hinkley from Canada writes: I guess the big question is whether or not NAFTA precludes the 105 year old covenant with the company.

    I would say that it doesn't.

    But one never knows when dealing with our neighbours to the south.

    They usually take a 'my way or the high way' approach when dealing with problems whether they're right or wrong.
  68. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Sorry Greg Out west but buying a company with ABitibi's mentality,is not a priority for me or anyone else iwould think.To rape this province for years and still feel the need to continue with that rape is just off the charts to say the very least.
  69. Warron yu from Canada writes: F B from Canada writes: To Steven Koning from Bloomfield: What's interesting is that they will be thrown out of the NYSE soon, being under 1$. By the time they start any move, they might be out of business altogether.
    By the way, they don't have many friends up north.
    Posted 19/12/08 at 5:17 PM EST

    ---------------

    Disregard my last post. I guess it's more like a lawsuit. Which does cost money.

    Just wanted to point out that NAFTA is a law
  70. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: An international case to be sure.

    All Canadians will watch this one.

    Natural resources belong to the Provinces.

    The dawn of a New World Order, social justice?
    .
  71. Peasinour Thyme from Edmonton, Canada writes: If nothing else, this will shine a light on the power of NAFTA to impose corporate standards on public assets.

    Under NAFTA, corporations can overturn wetlands and other ecological protections on the grounds of asset depreciation. It always seems that NAFTA works against Canadians. When we win a ruling, the US gets to thumb their noses at us and the treaty, like they did with the cattle ban and softwood tariffs.

    When a foreign firm feels they can't capitalize on Canadian assets, they seem to get their way by bullying their way through with threats.

    We need to take back Canada, and if the battle begins on the Rock, so be it. We should stand by Danny Williams.

    Protectionism and nationalism are not good foundations for economic growth, but like everything else in moderation, they have their benefits.
  72. Mr Malcontent from Canada writes: Danny is showing us that Nafta was a joke , Canada got screwed, Mulroney got his brown envelopes filled with cash, and the Americans are not our friends
  73. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...which NAFTA deal?.....the one the incoming US president vows to renegotiate?......it's high time someone reads the riot act to those companies who act in bad faith.....
  74. Gord Adam from oot on the freezin prairie, Canada writes: I cant put it any better than Peter Turner above. I agree with most of the pro-NL posts and am happy to see that Canadians have found a champion of our rights and our resources. The example given in one post of the contrast between this advocacy by a province compared to the Tar sands (bitumen sands, but thats not as catchy) situation is apt.
  75. Percy from NL from Canada writes: AbitibiBowater needs to get its corporate act together and this is not the way to do it. This is clearly a desperation move being made by a company that has other problems. They're not going to get their free taxpayer handout from NL, so they may as well move on.

    If they are not careful, this story will stick with every other jurisdiction considering leasing resources to AbitibiBowater; not very smart business on their part. Then again, if you're desperate ...
  76. Brian Canuck from Canada writes: If AbitiBowater is Montreal based...and therefore a Canadian legal entity....what has NAFTA got to do with it?

    Also, even if NAFTA comes into play, we already know that the USA does not respect NAFTA legal processes...so what is the issue?
  77. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Sorry Greg Out west but buying a company with ABitibi's mentality,is not a priority for me or anyone else iwould think.To rape this province for years and still feel the need to continue with that rape is just off the charts to say the very least.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Steadfast, I agree. I was just pointing out that aside from your resourses the company really isn't worth all that much.

    Cheers
  78. Akbar M from Regina, Canada writes: There's no chance that anything Williams does will jeopardize investment in NL. There's huge investment in places like Russia which has a terrible track record. What are companies supposed to do? If NL has the resources they need they'll invest and be more clear in their agreements. Think of the investment in 'communist' China. Doesn't seem to be deterring any companies that will shroud themselves in democratic ideals only when it suits them.
  79. John Melnick from High River AB, Canada writes: Harper cancelled the high tech satellite deal out West to protect Canada's interests. Unprecedented that was.

    Guess to qualify as a Liberal supporter you need a short memory.
  80. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Dick Garneau from Canada wrote: 'An international case to be sure.
    All Canadians will watch this one. Natural resources belong to the Provinces.'

    Maybe so, Dick G, but Canada is fully within her rights to negotiate 'on behalf' of all re: international trade.

    Now, we can argue whether or not Canada, in signing NAFTA, actually acted in our collective best interest (IMHO, she did not, but it is only most recently that many other Canadians are seeing it my way), but we are all surely bound by it, like it or not.
  81. Apu Nahasapeemapetilon from Vancouver, Canada writes: Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...which NAFTA deal?.....the one the incoming US president vows to renegotiate?......it's high time someone reads the riot act to those companies who act in bad faith.....

    Perhaps it's the one that Jean Chretien promised to tear-up!
  82. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Sorry Peasinour - NAFTA can't overturn things - only ensure that those impacted are farily compensated.
  83. Cactus Jack from Edmonton, Canada writes: Man I wish Alberta had a leader like Danny.
  84. Tiu Leek from Canada writes: 'A skeptical MD from Canada writes: ...AbitibiBowater IS an American corporation, so NAFTA rules do apply. Check your facts. Chapter 11 of NAFTA would seem to be available as a legal route for the corporation to mount a legal challenge.'

    That applies only to compensation, and nothing else.

    At best, Abitibi-Bowater can get compensation, but not the land itself back, since legally it doesn't seem to have owned it in the first place.

    And that compensation might take quite a while, and be rather difficult to collect in the first place.
  85. Warron yu from Canada writes: Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...which NAFTA deal?.....the one the incoming US president vows to renegotiate?......it's high time someone reads the riot act to those companies who act in bad faith.....

    -----------------

    UNBELIEVALBLE!!!!

    Ghoulsbee called Ian Brody and told him Obama wasn't serious.

    It was only on the cover of Every National newspaper.

    The phrase 'political Rhetoric' comes to mind.

    After Obama Apointed every cheerleader for NAFTA he could find, I would think that this might have got through even the Thickest skulls out there.

    A Third Clinton Administration is not the Change I had hoped for.
  86. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: That would be great if Canada announced a pre-emptive tear-up of NAFTA. Just tell the Yanks to shove it and keep their corporate plunderers off our soil.

    Protectionism will work just fine in Canada because we are lucky enough to have gobs of natural resources to use as leverage.

    What's the difference between the Somali Pirates and Wall STreet?
    ONe is a band of thieves and cut-throats and the other is a pirate.
  87. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: hmm - Natural resource belong to the provinces - that is until until they sell them to someone. (As was the case here if you bother to read the agreement.)
  88. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Cactus Jack from Edmonton, Canada writes: Man I wish Alberta had a leader like Danny.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    CJ you have to remember that Ed got in the same way that dion got in. Being nobodies first or second choice he got elected by coming up the middle.
  89. ken g from Canadian in Cuernavaca, Canada writes: The Williams 'shock and awe'. Great, scare the sh!t out of business.
  90. Warron yu from Canada writes: You (Warron yu, from Canada) wrote: Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...which NAFTA deal?.....the one the incoming US president vows to renegotiate?......it's high time someone reads the riot act to those companies who act in bad faith.....
    ------------

    I think I missed the sarcasm the first time i read your comment and responded

    It is, right?
  91. A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes: According to a different article in G&M; - not Danny but Harper has to (or does not have to) defend the deal when it comes to NAFTA. So, Danny put Harper to make a choice either for American corporation or Canadian resources.

    It's getting interesting ...
  92. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: To the people who call him 'Danny Chavez'.

    Newfoundland Pulp and Paper Act 1905, Schedule, para 5.e and others. It was a contract between the Newfoundland Government and the company that eventually became AbitibiBiowater. Keep the mill, keep the resources. Close the mill, lose the resources. Nothing in there gave 'the company' the right to unilaterally change the contract.

    AbitibiBiowater is in breach of contract. ALL the resources they had LEASED, and everything that uses them, reverts to the government. If NAFTA can be used to reverse a clear case of breach of contract just because the company happens to be American, then it's time to tell the USA where to stuff it. If contracts aren't valid any more just because it's an American company vs a Canadian government entity, then it's a worse deal than I thought.
  93. Lyn Alg from Canada writes: Hey, little Davey - I'm sure Danny Williams is shaking in his boots. Get serious and pack up your belongings and go back from whence you came - the good ol' USA. This is Canada. Not Afghanistan. Your bully tactics don't frighten us, little boy!
  94. Chris Halford from Ottawa, Canada writes: I'm with Danny, if they want the lumber and the hydro, they can run the mill. If NAFTA says NL can't do this then NAFTA is wrong.
  95. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Greg out west I didn't mean to sound offended there .I only was pointing out as well ,the attitude that this company has for the worker here who last year saved this company 12 million after they were asked to save 10 million.In return they came back this year and said either let us contract out the work and let most of you go to retirement or take layoffs ar we shut the mill.The employees stood their ground and the mill is to close in March.This mill made money last year just not enough.This is not someone I or most people would take as a good corporate citizen.
  96. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: The contract only said they had to build a mill - I don't see anything about keeping it running for eternity. What are the prairie provinces going to take back land where homestead concessions are currently not being farmed? The granting of land on the priaries or in Newfoundland is not different.
  97. Ian Berg from Canada writes: It would be tolerable if NL was willing to pay a fair market price for the company's assets but expropriation goes to far. It just means the NL government is getting into the business of 'plundering' the province's natural resoucrces by robbing a private company's means of 'plundering'.
  98. Byrd 17 from New Zealand writes: In International Law (which may trump NAFTA) a sovereign state should be giving notice of major policy changes, so that other states, NGOs and MREs can 'adjust' to the new policy from that country.

    If I were a lawyer for the Newfoundland government, I would be rushing to Geneva before doing anything and providing the ICJ with legal notice of its proposed action (and why).

    Visiting the WTO enroute with the same 'notice' might be wise too.
  99. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Cactus Jack from Edmonton wrote: 'Man I wish Alberta had a leader like Danny.'

    I wish Canada did!
  100. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: J Albert you remind me of YakaBuski and his article yesterday .Do your research first.It was a lease agreement.Get that though your kindergarden mind.Get the facts before you blirt out dumb comments.
  101. Greg Out West from Canada writes: A B from Saskatoon, Canada writes: According to a different article in G&M; - not Danny but Harper has to (or does not have to) defend the deal when it comes to NAFTA. So, Danny put Harper to make a choice either for American corporation or Canadian resources.

    It's getting interesting ...
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't think it will come down to harper having to make a choice. I think it will be cut and dry. I'm sure Danny read the contract before making his move and as such AB will prpbably be out of luck. That's why they are currently URGING him to reconsider. If they has a case the lawyers would be all over it like white on rice.
  102. R L from Canada writes: .

    One thing I can say about Paul Martin is that he fought for Canada's rights on the Softwood Lumber matter, which is the right thing to do considering Canada won every single ruling and appeal. The only thing that went in USA's favour was a non-binding WTO judgment, and that is what the U.S. used to keep the appeal process going. Canada was within a month of closing the deal in our favour, but too bad the Harper Cons got into power.

    Harper sold out Canada on Softwood Lumber. What a disgrace!

    I expect that Mr. Danny Williams on the other hand will fight for the rights of Newfoundland.

    .
  103. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Greg out west I didn't mean to sound offended there .I only was pointing out as well ,the attitude that this company has for the worker here who last year saved this company 12 million after they were asked to save 10 million.In return they came back this year and said either let us contract out the work and let most of you go to retirement or take layoffs ar we shut the mill.The employees stood their ground and the mill is to close in March.This mill made money last year just not enough.This is not someone I or most people would take as a good corporate citizen.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Steadfast, I'm with you 100 % Have a great weekend
  104. Zippy Doodah from Vancouver, Canada writes: This is one story I am definitely going to follow! I think NewFoundland have a strong case. I would just caution that this is all done in such a manner as to not scare off any other potential businesses that would want to take over these rights. Won't NewFoundland need someone else in place to make this a revenue generator for the province? In short my support to you NewFoundland all the way from BC!
  105. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: Offshore Reg from bridgetown barbados, Canada writes: '...The alternative would be that Abitibi, a Delaware company no longer in the paper business in the province, could sell cutting rights to crown lands which it apparently believes it owns in perpetuity, and which it no longer needs, to anyone it wants...Americans, Europeans, Russians, whomever. From my perspective at least there is something wrong with that picture.'

    You raised many good popints in your post Offshore! But your last point (above) is probably the crux of the issue.

    It seems to me that A-B believes its mills were significantly devalued as a result of their leases being withdrawn.

    This will be an interesting test of NAFTA rules. Whatever the result, I am sure that many people's eyes are going to opened on what NAFTA is.

    cheers!
  106. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Ian Berg The assets you speak of belong to the province and its people.The only thing of market vale belonging to the company are the mill itself and the hydro generating station.The river has been there for centuries and so substation.The mill they can have or sell to someone else .Their call.That shouldn't be that difficult to understand even for you.
  107. F B from Canada writes: To Warron yu from Canada writes: F B from Canada writes: To Steven Koning from Bloomfield: What's interesting is that they will be thrown out of the NYSE soon, being under 1$. By the time they start any move, they might be out of business altogether.
    By the way, they don't have many friends up north.
    Posted 19/12/08 at 5:17 PM EST

    -----------------

    nafta is a law.

    By your logic I shouldn't be able to press charges if I'm broke.
    ____
    You know: lawyers, money, greed, war chest, unfair cause. It's an unwritten law too.
  108. dog river from Canada writes: In exchange for separating, let's just give Labrador 'back' to Quebec. That ought to raise Danny's blood pressure a tad...
  109. Michael Palmer from Canada writes: Go Danny, go Danny go!! Right, a lease is not ownership! And give the swine 48 hours to pack up their CEO's and get out of NL!
  110. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Steadfastly rude - is that in vogue on the Rock these days? I read the agreement - it was posted somewhere in this website. If it was simple breach of contract, Newfoundland would simply have to make that claim in a court-of-law The fact that they had to pass legislation should tell you that it not a case of breach of contract by the company. (Simple logic - try it sometime.)
  111. Scott Robinson from Calgary, Canada writes: So, who owns Crown assets? The people, not corporations. Also, it is funny how NAFTA seems to have been a bit of a sell out nafta-all!
  112. James Cyr from Balmertown, Canada writes: So according to socialist Williams, the company is expected to remain open and continue to loose money until it is forced to close eventually anyway. If the Newfoundlland government can do this, then any provincial government can expropriate any company for whatever reason.
  113. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Last blog should have read the river has been there for centuries and so have the timber lands.Sorry about that folks
  114. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: R L from Canada writes: .

    One thing I can say about Paul Martin is that he fought for Canada's rights on the Softwood Lumber matter,
    Harper sold out Canada on Softwood Lumber. What a disgrace!

    Martin sold out Canadians with UI premiums to balance the budget - downloaded cost like Healthcare to Provinces, and put flags of convenience to avoid Canadian taxes on his Ship business, oh ya he was a real gem! Now that softwood has hit rock bottom (who's building houses in N. America these days) what deal there is no market? Spruce Pine Fir is great if people need it! Today not so much, a deal on the back of no market - sounds like an Auto Plan!!!
  115. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: 'hmm - Natural resource belong to the provinces - that is until until they sell them to someone. (As was the case here if you bother to read the agreement.) '

    J Albert, it was a lease agreement, not a sale.

    But A-B is acting as if they do own the land (they are negotiating the sale of the dam they built) so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the WTO dispute resolution courts!

    Go Danny Go!
  116. Zarny YYC from Canada writes: Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes:

    'To Zany yyc or whatever and N Ontarian.Do you two pukes have a vested interest in Abitibi or something....and then a whole lot of drivel.'

    Nope...I don't own shares in Abitibi and really couldn't give a sh!t about the company.

    The reality is that Danny isn't doing anything by this expropriation to encourage investment in Newfoundland.

    If I were a major multi-national corporation I would be thinking twice about investing in Newfoundland if Williams will so easily just rip up existing agreements.

    Russia, Venezuela and other jurisidictions that have pulled this sort of thing have a hard time convincing corporations to invest capital in their regions.

    Capital investment is global and highly mobil in this day and age.

    If you think Danny trying to run roughshod over Abitibi will do anything but scare away investment you are delusional.

    Danny's actions will make it much harder to convince companies to invest in the Province and the funny thing is Danny will only have himself to thank for it.
  117. Henry Wojak from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: Warron Yu writes that the Canadian Action Party wanted to cancel Nafta,it also warned about bank leveraging,but it was a voice in the wind!
  118. kjell Anderson from Saskatoon, writes: All of these comments about companies heading for the hills and halting all investments in Newfoundland and Labrador are quite funny. That is just the same fear-mongering you always get from corporations that don't get their way. Many companies invest heavily in countries that are far more risky than Newfoundland (for example Sudan). The point is: if there's money to be made they will invest. Ignore the right-wing fear-mongering from corporate overlords and their lackeys.
  119. Warron yu from Canada writes: Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Sorry Peasinour - NAFTA can't overturn things - only ensure that those impacted are farily compensated.
    Posted 19/12/08 at 5:32 PM EST

    -----------------------------

    NO? I guess the NAFTA Tribunal just basically rules yes this Company can sue for billions and then the law just happens to overturn itself.

    Call it what you will. See my earlier posts.

    What about MMT?

    http://www.canadians.org/media/trade/1998/20-Jul-98.html

    Here is a whole list of NAFTA claims:

    http://fina-nafi.org/eng/triumvirat08/documents/NAFTAChapter11.pdf
  120. J Law from Canada writes: Backing someone who has a wish doesn't make that wish come true. I think this could be a very interesting battle. I wonder what really is a stake here.
  121. Zarny YYC from Canada writes: A Banana from Canada writes:

    'Funny, that's been said before by the Oil companies. Sorry, but if the choice is do business with Danny Williams or Hugo Chavez, Danny still wins.'

    When comparing Newfoundland to Venezuela then yes Newfoundland probably still wins as Hugo has expropriated a lot more than Danny has.

    Heck Nfld might still win if the alternative is Russia.

    However Alberta, BC, Sask, the US, most of Africa, the North Sea and a whole lot of other places are a much more attractive place to invest than Nfld given Mr. William's actions.

    The fact you are comparing Nfld to Venezuela should be your first clue this isn't going to attract investment capital.
  122. Steve Brooke from Canada writes: G. Veneta from Canada writes: Abitibi is an American company not Canadian. Why should the timber and water rights go to enriching Americans while Canadians are losing their jobs.

    Don't disagree but have to wonder about GM and Chrysler being US operations and how the current US Auto Bailout might affect Canadian operations? Just how connected are we? This NFLD Abitibi fracas may well serve to illustrate just hoew much autonomy we truly have?
  123. Ken Hunt from Canada writes: I guess we have to thank Mulroney for NAFTA.
    American companies can tell Canadian governments what they can and can't do
  124. D H from Canada writes: If worst comes to worst and we lose the Nafta challenge, Canada is in a good position to just ignore the win.
    The Russian economy is in the toilet and their once mighty oil business in now government owned, and Mr. Putin is not playing nice with the West. Venezuela has a lot of oil too, but is not playing nice with the USA. Saudis are stable, but Iraq is a mess, and Iran is at odds with the Americans.
    So Americans MUST turn to Canada for their fossil fuel needs. Alberta has a bunch and Newfoundland has some too.
    Their need for our resources oil, gas, uranium, potash, etc etc etc for outweighs their need to support a practically bankrupt company.
    This is basically what happened with the softwood lumber dispute. We are a stable democracy, friendly to the USA and endowed with many resources that the Americans AND the Chinese AND the Indians need.
    Who do you think really holds the better cards in this poker hand?
    Danny Williams does, and so does Harper. Once Harper learns how to grow a pair, he'll stare down Obama (whom I like a lot) with the best of them.
    Keep at 'em Danny boy. Newfoundland and Canada forever!
  125. Winter of Discontent from Ottawa, Canada writes: It would be wonderful news to hear that Williams and NFLD will be sued for $10 BILLION for illegally taking over the companies assets. Then for fines to be imposed on Danny personally and NFLD too... to pick up the tab which Ottawa will get from the US due to Danny's idiotic antics.

    Bye bye to any further US dollar investment after this one into Canada.
  126. Jesse Winger from Calgary Doubts Harper, Canada writes: Many western Conservatives loathe Danny 'cuz he stood up to big oil - and won a fair deal for his province. He's got balls, something the western premiers only dream about.

    Don't listen to the crackpots Danny! One Premier, at least, knows right from wrong.
  127. Jim Edwards from London, Canada writes: I see a lot of Williams fans from the Conservative party posting here, exuberant in their admiration ... . I am reminded of the adage 'the bigger you are the harder you fall' being a metaphor for this adulation and its sure path to failure. There is no question Abitibi will win.

    Danny's friends in the Federal wing negotiated your rights away years ago. Where were you?

    How sad! your rights were negotiated away by the same Fed parties/individuals you vote for year in, year out.
  128. R L from Canada writes: .

    I remember this same talk when Mr. Williams told the oil companies to get lost. Oh no, someone is actually standing up for the people instead of standing up for the big corporations. How dare he! Then the Harper federal NeoCons started labeling the Premier as Danny Chavez.

    A few months later, the oil companies came crawling back, on their knees, begging for a new deal, and the new deal signed was far more favourable to the people of Newfoundland than if they had caved in to the corporate bullying.

    .
  129. chris W from Tranna, Canada writes: Go, Danny, Go! Barring any silly scandal or other mental fart, DW will probably rule NFLD til the day he dies. Too bad a provincial premier has never s uccesfully changed careers to become PM. We could use a dose of the DW-cohones in the Big O. Abitibi -- and other corporate USA/World parent corps -- are no doubt watching this with grave concern: If Danny can get away with this take-back, why can't all the provinces do it when they have to deal with companies who come here for the easy money, then close up thinking the assets have more value than producing goods... and more value than hiring people and contributing to their communities.
  130. Joyce Smith from Canada writes: Right on Danny!!!
  131. what's wrong with the world from Lethbridge, Canada writes: Danny for Prime Minister!
  132. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Ok Zany YYc Let me ask you this question.Do you agree that large corporations should be in control of provincial resources long after they have closed up shop,especially in light of the fact that they have now broken an agreement signed over 100 years ago to lease the land .Yes they have the mill which they can sell plus their hydro station But the river as I have said and the timber lands belong to the province. Because you have used them for your operation doesn't mean you own them outright after you close up shop.If you agree that they do indeed retain the right to these lands and waterway's,then you are wrong as far as I and many others here feel.My lease agreement to rent your property is up but screw you I am staying and .Take it or leave it.I don;t intend to pay rent
  133. Slightly Optimistic from the West Coast, Canada writes: Zarny YYC from Canada writes: It will be funny when Newfoundland finds itself in a position where no companies will invest capital in the Province.
    ---
    What a laughable argument. OK, Zarny, if you're willing to get bent over a barrel out of fear and stupidity, then so be it, but there's no reason why the rest of us have to. Go Danny!
  134. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: You folks should actually read the legislation (Bill 75), It clearly states that the Province is taking' 'The timber rights to lands currently held by Abitibi Consolitated'. I right that one's hold means ownership - it doesn't mean a lease.
  135. shaun narine from Fredericton, Canada writes: The idea that companies won't go to Newfoundland if NFLD expropriates ABBW is a nice and convenient lie, but one that has been proven false time and again. How many companies are still invested in Russia? How many are still going in to China, despite that country's often suspicious business and banking practices? And, way back in 1997-1998, during the Asian Economic Crisis, the same threats were made against Malaysia when it shut down the convertibility of its currency and forbade investors from withdrawing their investments from the country. Malaysia did not suffer and the country was later credited with doing the right thing, rather than trusting in free market forces to behave rationally.

    The more interesting thing here is the NAFTA connection. The US ignores NAFTA all the time. Why shouldn't Canada, especially under these conditions? If ATBW is not prepared to act in a way that benefits the people of the place in which it does business, then it should be penalized.
  136. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: For all the Danny-Boy cheerleaders here, that's all nice...however His actions (property rights etc.) will start a whole bunch of Lawyers charging huge fees that NFLD. Canada et al will have to buck up and pay - regardless of the outcome...I can hear the funds going down the drain er Law Firms as I type, Principled no doubt! Danny Foolish... as to hard earned tax dollars supporting Law Firms well executed might last 8-ten years???
  137. The Lanark Centrist from Canada writes: Go read a copy of the lease. It precedes NAFTA, BTW.

    The INTENT will be what sways things..... the INTENT of giving the Company the trees, water rights etc. was to build a town, support a business that would provide for people in NL.

    Since the Company has decided they no longer want to abide by the terms, the INTENT, of the lease, they are therefore voluntarily giving up their rights to trees and water.

    If the Company has an argument at all, it's with their lawyers, the ones who are supposed to do their due diligence as to contracts in force etc. when one Company purchases another. It appears Abitibi's lawyers didn't do theirs, otherwise they'd have told the Company about the lease, and the possibilities.

    I'm not a fan of Danny Williams....far from it.... but in this case, I'm behind him 100%
  138. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Steadfast doesn't seem so anymore.
  139. steve allan from Canada writes: This hasn't made it to court yet but Newfoundland has already lost. The fact is they will lose in court and they have already lost in the eyes of the business community. But then again they had already set a poor precedent when they tangled with Inco.

    As long as Newfoundland and its people continue to thumb their nose at the law, it will continue to be a backwater where no one wants to invest.
  140. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: 'Williams has woken up to a fact that other forelock-tugging, Board-of-Director-wannabe Canadian politicos haven't grasped -- industries need resources.'

    Yes, EXACTLY! We don't need them, they need us! Paper money is WORTHLESS unless backed by resources.
    Danny is my new hero. We are desperate for heroes in Canada these days. We don't even get a debate in Canada, Harpo just whips out the taxpayer chequebook and asks: 'How much do you need, boys?'
    Pathetic...
  141. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: J Albert Please stop with your word play .It really is not factual.Because they hold the rights to the timber land doesn't mean they own the timber lands out right How many time do we have to spell it out.It is a lease agreement not an ownership agreement.
  142. Canadian Abroad from London, United Kingdom writes: Im curious to know if AB is in danger of administration. If they go under it won't be them who takes Canada to court, but the creditors. I'd like to know if this is even possible?

    Even if it does go to court I doubt there will be much attention paid to this south of the border the way things are going.
  143. John Ridout from Canada writes: I hope Danny has a case. There is something fundamentally wrong when a corporation, piled high with incentives and after having made itself a ton of money for its shareholders, can up and leave throwing several hundred people out of work, and then expect to continue to accrue to itself benefits that accrue from either ownership or leases it is walking away from. God how I wish Danny was the prime minister of this country. Backbone is so sorrily needed
  144. If I had a million lobsters from Mexican Riviera, Canada writes: boy when the US comes up to kick your sorry asses with the US army you gonna be in for surprise. These guys take over countries, some island off the coast of Canada is like when they invaded Grenada 25 year ago.

    It's one thing to piss off harpo it's another to piss these nutballs off.

    LOL OMG Danny boy you bit off more than you can chew. Who do you think runs the court that decides the fate of these disputes.
    Jesus they'll take you women too when they are done.
  145. Stephen Pickett from St. Johns, Canada writes: I guess its the old adage 'USE IT OR LOSE IT' from Danny boy.
  146. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: The 'lease' agreement is for 999 years. Long terms leases such as that are essentially ownership. For example, a lease of over 50 years in Ontario is subject to the Land Transfer tax. BY my calculation, the 999 year period is still in its infancy.
  147. black dog from canada, Canada writes: NF isn't competing with Chavez, they are competing with other jurisdictions in North America such as Saskatchewan and Ontario. As the poster above noted, good luck with future invesmtent in the province.

    Hate to break it to you people, you can't get something for nothing.
  148. chris W from Tranna, Canada writes: When it's all said and done, the provinces can do whatever they want with the land. They might play the game of legal compensation for expropriation, but if the ultimate push and shove happened, the provincial government will win. Not withstanding what legal case happens. The only stoppage would be if it were the feds who wanted the land. Ace trumps king. And in any case, as I understand it, and probably not well, the agreement as one person said earlier predates NAFTA... and it was a lease based on certain conditions of performance that are no longer being performed.
  149. Blake Johnston from Vancouver, Canada writes: People who say lease isn't ownership, need to read up...because it is in fact a form of ownership
  150. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: If any one of you feels for a monment that large companies should be permitted to continue to control your provinces resources long after they have closed up shop,then your province gets what it deserves.In the case of our premier and the people of this province we feel it is wrong and are taking a stand against it.Right or wrong (and we feel we are right here)companies that sign lease agreements and do not continue to honor them should not continue to control provincial resources.If another company is interested in the mill great. The province is interested in the hydro station and so it should be.The river and the timber lands have been here long before Abitibi and will continue to be here long after.It should revert back to provincial control after they leave as per the lease agreement.Never ever should any company be in control of any provinces resources long after they are gone and have broken their agreement.It doesn't wash here and shouldn't wash across this great country
  151. Hopelessly Hoping from Seville, Canada writes: Never thought it would happen...smartest and best leader in the country is a Conservative. Not since Peter Lougheed!

    He's one Fart Smucker, that Danny Boy. Right up there with Captain Canada and the Spanish (Basque) fishermen! Thankfully SOMEONE has the cajones to watch out after our resources.

    BTW, try to find the Rick Mercer Report on YouTube from when Mercer visits Cirque du Soleil. There is a brief, accurate and hilarious mention of Mr. Williams.
  152. Hairless Joe from Canada writes: James Cyr from Balmertown, Canada writes: 'So according to socialist Williams, the company is expected to remain open and continue to loose money until it is forced to close eventually anyway. If the Newfoundlland government can do this, then any provincial government can expropriate any company for whatever reason.'
    ========================================
    The company was not 'loos'ing money. They decided that they could make more money by using the water rights to make and sell electricity. But the LEASE specified that the water rights were for the purpose of operating the mill only. Pretty slippery don't you think?

  153. black dog from canada, Canada writes: R L from Canada, I don't think you OR williams understand exactly what happened earlier this year with the oil companies. You think williams made a good decision to go long crude oil at $100/barrel? You tell me - it's trading in the mid $30s/barrel today. You think the oil compananies would not have paid more royalties instead of giving up equity...duh...of course they would have, but instead they got to sell to danny at $100/barrel...they must be laughing their heads off at him. R L you may not understand it now, but you and others will in the future when you finally figure out and they are comparing this deal to churchill. (Unless of course crude shoots up past $100/barrel again...good luck with that...)
  154. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Bill 75 cleary states the Gov. of NL isexpropriating the land (it does not say 'repossess' as would be the case if this were an early termination of a lease ). This is a typical defintion of 'Expropriate':

    - to take possession of, esp. for public use by the right of eminent domain, thus divesting the title of the private owner:
  155. Hopelessly Hoping from Seville, Canada writes: Blake: Last time I signed a lease with a landlord I sure didn't feel like I owned anything. He was around all the time telling me what I could and couldn't do. Not a glimmer of remorse, and nary a clause in NAFTA for my defense.
  156. JA M from Our Town, Canada writes: 'black dog from canada, Canada writes: As the poster above noted, good luck with future invesmtent in the province. Hate to break it to you people, you can't get something for nothing.'

    If there are resources to be exploited you'll have some company sniffing around like a pack of jackals
  157. Hopelessly Hoping from Seville, Canada writes: Steadfast...any time you'd like to share, the rest of Canada would LOVE to have whatever it is you put in the water there. Maybe we can feed it to some of the wannabe 'leaders' in Ottawa?
  158. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Support Our Troops if Danny Williams scares you because he takes a stand against companies trying to run over citizens like you I and works for the beneifit of his province, as any good leader should then you my boy are a girl.
  159. Mikey Dee from Canada writes: It's good to hear that someone finally has the balls to stand up to these tirants from the US. Go ahead invoke NAFTA....we cam play the same game as the softwood lumber deal. In 25 or 30 years there may be a settlement ! I for one am tired of our timid little politicians turning tail & running from these companies that don't live up to the agreements they made. These resources belong to the Canadian people not to multi-national corporations!
  160. steve allan from Canada writes: By the way, AbitibiBowater IS a Canadian company based in Montreal.
  161. John Onuaillain from Canada writes: It's refreshing to see a provincial politician who has enough gumption to stand up for the citizens of his province; one who knows that his first responsibility is to those citizens, and not to Ottawa or industry. We all should be so fortunate - Go Danny, Go...
  162. bilbo baggins from whirlpool, Canada writes: Danny is not a fool. Even if his case will not hold up in court, he will gain something from all the hoopla surrounding this standoff.

    It's like Mr. Harper's defamation lawsuit against the Liberal Party. It's just a bunch of posturing.
  163. Hopelessly Hoping from Seville, Canada writes: Black Dog...hate to break it to you, it's Abitibi trying to get something for nothing here, and NF trying to keep what's there's.

    Way to go, NF!
  164. Dick Nails from Canada writes: Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: 'Danny Chavez is a socialist slime ball and an embarrassment to all on Canada.'

    You people are either a) corporate shills or b) really weak minded groveling worms who kneel and bob before authority wherever they find it.
    Which is it?

    >> Golly, Steve, that is a ... err toughy.

    And what do the baying hounds who yelp and snarl at the command of the dog runner?

    Recognizing what Williams did is for people who live outside Newfy. You, from the inside, are drinking his bathwater.
  165. What's Next? from Canada writes: Mr Williams is an insperation to us all. Tell Bowater to blow off. Hats off to the Peoples premier. You stick to your guns.
  166. black dog from canada, Canada writes: JA M from Our Town, it is quite a simple concept. 'If there are resources to be exploited', sure there might still be interest...but NF will simply have to pay more (i.e. accept a lower royalty rate) compared to other jurisdictions, all else equal. Probably much more. Otherwise companies won't invest. It's no different than various other jurisdictions around the world that are hostile to investment. They can still attract it, eventually, but at a worse price. You can't get something for nothing. Do you understand?
  167. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Here's the Merriam-Webster definitions of 'expropriate':

    1 : to deprive of possession or proprietary rights
    2 : to transfer (the property of another) to one's own possession

    All the Abibiti lawyers need to do to win is bring a copy of Bill 75 before the courts.
  168. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Akbar M from Regina, Canada writes: There's no chance that anything Williams does will jeopardize investment in NL. There's huge investment in places like Russia ....................................

    Akbar - You are ABSOLUTELY right!

    American and Canadian Corporations are everywhere where they can make money, no matter what the ideology of the country. For instance the major Oil Corporations of the U.S. operate in the STANS of Central Asia and Africa. There are many Canadian Corporations operating in the Middle East drilling for Oil, Cuba and Latin American countries and on and on.

    Zarny YYC - You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG!

    Please stop your fear mongering. Investors research companies before they invest in their stock, it is one of the prime criteria in investing. I do and I am sure most other people do as well. So therefore they know the locations where they operate. It is a critical piece of criteria, on whether you purchase a stock or not.
  169. Conspiracy Theory from Cambridge, Canada writes: As an entrepreneur who has operated successful corporations, I have to congratulate Premier Williams for calling the corporation on the contract.

    There is absolutely no excuse for Abi to close the mill and yet profit from the natural resources which was 'part' of the contract.

    For anyone who thinks this will prevent any corporations from investing in NFLD is wrong on their assumption.

    Abitibi can cry foul all they want but they will not see a penny from their claims.
  170. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Hopeless Hoping from Seville.when Mr Williams came into politics he had as an ordinary citizen in this province watch as we all have ,successive gvmts give away the shop as one leader said at one time.He ran on the principle of the day's of the giveaway's are over.Finally a politician here who has kept his word and has held his ground to better his province even tho he has been desecrated across the nation.His idea of a better province for all is something that has struck a cord for us all and hopefully leaves us across this nation with a better understanding of what it means to keep ones word as a political figure in this country.
  171. bilbo baggins from whirlpool, Canada writes: Fifty Cal

    Are y'all for real Tex?

    You, and the liars that get elected out of Texas have not had a lot to be proud of the last 8 years, have y'all?

    Clean up your own back yard, son.

  172. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: NAFTA does not invalidate AbitibiBowater predating contracts.
  173. Conspiracy Theory from Cambridge, Canada writes: Fifty cal from Austin Texas, United States writes: Ah, so you canucks want to fight the U.S. in the one area where we RULE THE WORLD! LAWYERS!!! He, he, he. By the time they get done with you, we'll be taking your gold and oil and trees for compensation and the U.S. company will STILL have 'rights' to the water and land.

    You never learn. And it will stop any other company from investing money in your socialist country.

    ENJOY!
    _____________________________________________________

    You will be wallowing in so much debt for the next trillion years, you won't have any money to buy anything or anyone out.
  174. Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: Hopefully, the softwood lumber battle with the US taught us everything we need to know about NAFTA. One NAFTA tribunal after another found on Canada's side, yet Harper gave pal George $1Billion to settle the issue. He wanted so desperately to impress George that he was pro-American all the way that he rolled over and played dead. This time, Americans want our resources but aren't willing to pay. The NAFTA playbook solution, as demonstrated by the American softwood lumber industry and their pocket politicians, is for Danny to ignore any NAFTA ruling, appeal for the next ten years and start putting the screws to the Americans on offshore oil. Push up royalties as soon as the price starts to go up and keep pushing them up until the US government, increasingly desperate for energy security, caves and tells Abitibi Bowater of Delaware to get lost. Don't count on Harper's help on this. He has proven on softwood lumber and on the Battle of the Coalition that he has weak knees and wets his pants at the first sign of trouble. In any case, he won't be around much longer.
  175. david ferguson from halifax, Canada writes: you have to say they have guts....when you consider they produce a product from resources that they essentially do not own, and get government assistance to do that,....when push comes to shove...the business of business is more one of leverage and politics than in making the profit that old business class 20 years ago taught you.

    oh wait, that's how people go out of business. if they cannot do it succesfully, then let someone else have a go, the beauty of resources is that they are adaptable. multinationals on the other hand....
  176. Hairless Joe from Canada writes: ' Mr. Williams said the government will not compensate AbitibiBowater for the loss of water and timber rights.

    But the company says under Chapter 11 of NAFTA, it is entitled to fair market value for all property taken by the province, whether it's directly or indirectly owned.'
    =============================================
    It appears that the company is not arguing over the legality of the expropriation, just the compensation.
  177. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: Fifty cal, I hear that Texas is seeking independence from USA. How is that going so far? Any success yet?
  178. Linda Dial from Canada writes: AB can knock themselves out. The good ship NAFTA is an unlikely saviour, lol. NL has caught them in breach of certain deal-breaking lease conditions. Premier Williams is right to play hardball here. Business is business.
  179. Large Double Single from Halifax, Canada writes: This is news? The second coming of Christ is expropriating an American company!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
  180. Dan Zenderman from TO, Canada writes: I think Abatibi wanted to keep the resources as assets on their books..I believe they may have wanted to sell or lease the timber rights to Kruger in Quebec.....If Kruger is in fact in a backroom deal with Abatibi , then Danny is out of luck .....Anybody ever hear of a story about Churchill Falls and Quebec Hydro ?...La Belle province always comes out the winner !
  181. Here comes the New World Order from United States writes: Congratulations to NF for having a premier that is willing to stand up for the people.
  182. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: J Albert : Here are details of the lease agreement: PART 1 99 Year Non-Renewable Licenses - ABH holds 38 non renewable timber licenses which were set to expire at 10 different dates between 2002 and 2021. However, under the 2002 Amended Forestry Act, expiration dates of these licenses were harmonized to a common date of December 31, 2010. At that time (2002 Amendment), ABHs continued use of 965,585 hectares of Crown land became contingent upon the company maintaining current production levels at the Grand Falls mill with two paper machines continuing to operate. Upon expiration, these licensed areas revert to Crown management control; however, the legislation also commits the Government to a comprehensive consultation process through which a new and consistent tenure regime for these licensed areas can be developed. Charter Timber Lease - Initially granted to the Anglo Newfoundland Development Company, (A.N.D. Company) under the 1905 Pulp and Paper Act, AB holds a lease to 517,998 hectares of Crown land which expired in January 2004. The lease included provisions for renewal by the company, under certain circumstances. Private Reid Newfoundland Company (Reid) Land - Through its predecessor the A.N.D. Company, Abitibi acquired freehold rights to 117,132 hectares on 16 separate Reid lots. Part 2 to follow...
  183. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: SB leases - Part 2

    • Timber Rights - When the Newfoundland Government purchased 144 Reid lots in 1974, AB acquired rights to eight of these, which now corresponds to 72,782 hectares of Crown Reid Lots. If Government divests these Reid lots to an entity other than AB, the company loses its rights to the timber on the land but may seek offsetting compensation.
    &8226; 999-Year Lease - Acquired from H.J. Crowe&8217;s company, Newfoundland Pulp and Pine Company, in 1907, Abitibi holds a 999 year lease to mineral and timber rights on 1,619 hectares of forest land. This lease expires in 2906 and is non renewable.
    &8226; 99-Year Special Leases/Grants - In addition, AB controls 2,461 hectares of perpetual 99 year special grants obtained from various sources.

    source: http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/forestry/publications/ForestSectorStrategyFinalReport.pdf
  184. xyz Say! from Canada writes: If any of you have seen documentaries which have been made on politicians and what they are up to in recent years, you would plainly see that THE CROOKS are governing Today's World and running Big Industry! It is quite plain from the documentaries that I have seen on World and Industry Leaders that they are not of the honest type. Make no wonder the World Economy is floundering around our ankles.

    Also the prime reason why the province of NL failed to thrive over the past 59 years, despite its vast resource base, is because the outside crooks got control over our resource base and built the economies from them in other jurisdictions.

    We will be more astute and mindful from now on over our natural resources, while big industry will be on the outside drooling to come to our honest province to do business.

    There are no pirates here seizing oil laden ships or kidnapping oil workers or I doubt that they will ever find themselves embroiled in a militaristic coup d'etat here!
  185. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Modern Business and Ponzi Schemes are one and the same!
  186. Howard Young from Canada writes: Hairless Joe, water and timer rights are not property and those rights were lost based on the lease agreement. The only thing AB is entitled to is compensation for the fixed assets relating to the hydro power generation.
  187. Ob Server from Canada writes: Don't do it Danny....all they want to do is rape and pillage NL's resources. They're leaving and that means that as of 3/31/'09 they have no further rights to the resources they previously exploited. Let them hire lawyers, who cares? The government interest trumps the private interest every time. Good for NL and it's wonderful they have a spunky, in-your-face, get-it-done Premier. If only, if only, if only (yes, 3 times...) we had that in Ontario and Canada!! Go Danny!
  188. What's Next? from Canada writes: Danny Williams for P.M.

    The Peoples Premier.
  189. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: I mean this in the nicest way - but if potential investors in NL haven't been scared off by Williams low-brow antics - they'll certainly be by some of the comments in this board.

    It seems that the sustained period of human capital outflow from the aforesaid envrion has resulted in a profound advancement of general synaptic blockage of its remaining denizens. Were he alive, Jonathan Swift would be quick (no pun intended) to realise that these deinzens were are the extreme 'Y'-end of the 'Y-H' scale (Yahoo-Houyhnhnm).
  190. Emilio Garazgos from Kanata, Canada writes: Dave Brown from Canada writes: Premier Williams is gonna absolutely kill the incentive for corporations to do business in his province. Why would any corporation in their right mind put up with this stuff?======

    By the same token, a resource co. like A-B needs resource rights in order to survive as a resouce co. and companies rely upon the good graces of prov & fed govts to grant them those resource rights.

    If A-B makes a legal stink about having to give up privileges to which it is no longer ethically entitled by virtue of its having pulled out of NL, what govt in their right mind is going to grant A-B any privileges in the future ?
  191. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: Dan Zenderman, obviously this company is going bankrupt and they are play these their games to get something out of because they have nothing to lose. They would have known the outcome of their actions.
  192. Ontario Man from Canada writes: Whatever happens Danny will just blame it on Harper. I mean someone has to take responsibility and it sure as hell won't be Danny boy.
  193. Polar Bear from Edmonton, Canada writes: Right on Danny. There is no need to be scared of such companies. You make our people jobless, you pay for it. Simple. Someone needs to stand up for Canadians.

    Watch them crawl back when they realize Danny is not blinking.
  194. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: I mean this in the nicest way - but if potential investors in NL haven't been scared off by Williams low-brow antics - they'll certainly be by some of the comments in this board.........

    Your statement is ludicrous. Why do Big Oil and Mineral Companies, etc. etc., invest in the Stans of Central Asia where the only type of Government is that operated by War Lords, who also sell heroin?

    Come on Please make sense!
  195. Bix Brecht from Canada writes: i've seen , on this thread, the claim that NAFTA Rules are legally enforceable. The first thing that popped in my head was; 'would they put Newfoundland and Labrador in jail?' I mean, how exactly would you enforce a law on a land and its people? It's not like there's going to be an embargo or an invading force now is it?
    just sayin'
  196. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Emilio Garazgos from Kanata, Canada writes:
    If A-B makes a legal stink about having to give up privileges to which it is no longer ethically entitled by virtue of its having pulled out of NL, what govt in their right mind is going to grant A-B any privileges in the future ? ?????

    YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO MAKE THAT COMPARISON! YES, A GREAT COMPARISON!
  197. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: Dave Brown, they would have known the terms of their own contract with the province. Is there any company foolish enough not to know the terms of their own contracts. They are just bluffing to be handed something for free because they are loud and claim to be American .
  198. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Abitibi or anyone else in the P&P; industry wants to run mills and make products for its customers. It would be ludicrous for a company to do so while losing money - and/or being accused by locals of 'raping' the land. Why would anyone in their right minds do that. Maybe Xyx Say! is gong to open a paper mill in NL so that he can fritter away his savings. Good luck!
  199. James Young from Brampton, Canada writes: What a difference between BC and Newfoundland.

    (Kitamac) sell power from their Dam (Old Alcan) and want to close Alcan smelting and the jobs.

    Abatabi tried the same and got head-slapped.

    Time to take back the resources at fair market prices if there is a major investment. Canada is fast becoming a type of Colonial occupied country giving resources away for peanuts.

    Go Danny Go.

    Durgan.
  200. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: how ironic that after giving Harper the icy cold shoulder, and his flag issues with Paul Martin, Nfld needs the ROC to back them in their NAFTA battle
    If Nfld loses, I wonder if this won't be the beginning of the end of Canada. maybe this will cause Nfld to consider separating now...
  201. D. Patrick from Gonzoville, Canada writes: This is seeming more and more like a ill-thought out rash action to punish an employer for shutting its mill when it became uneconomic. Surely it would reopen when conditions turn. This action does not bring that closer, in fact quiet the opposite. The premier should counsel for patience and return to the negotiating table.
  202. Cognitively Cogitative from Urbia, Canada writes: Too bad Gordon Campbell is such a corporate lackey. If only we were so lucky here in BC to have a premier with a portion of the testicular fortitude that our friend Danny Boy does.
  203. Joe Cool from Canada writes: If Danny pulls this off his next target should be Quebec Hydro and the pittance it is paying for electricity generated in Newfoundland at a price that has no escalation clause.
    Now that confrontation should be fun to watch!
  204. D. Patrick from Gonzoville, Canada writes: Joe Cool. Why stop there? Why not nationalise Hibernia, White Rose and Ben Nevis? Are these resources not the provinces own already.
  205. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Al Smith - there's some truth to that. The sad thing is that Williams has stolen something with very little value - and in doing so, made everyone aware of it. NL taxpayers may end up on the hook for the book value of the assets - which is likely far higher than their neglibible market value. Williams is playing right in the company's hands.

    The hard fact is that in a few years, newsprint demand will be a tiny fraction of what it is today - mostly because people will get all their news online. Almost all paper is recycled today. There won be a need for newsprint shipped all the way from Newfoundland for a long time - if ever.)
  206. Babbleon ! from Canada writes: Big talkers here aren't we,if you don't play ball with the Yanks they will drain the Great Lakes and send the water to Vegas.
    You people are pathetic.
  207. D. Patrick from Gonzoville, Canada writes: J. Albert. You are correct that William's actions gain the province little while potentially putting it on the hook for a worthless asset. The bigger danger is the reputational damage it causes to Nfld as an investment jurisidiction that respects property and contract rights. But everyone seems to love it, which may be his game. More fool him. Unfortunate that Newfoundlanders will pay for this in other ways, even if the costs are less tangible re investment foregone, which, admittedly, is something that cannot be easily quantified.
  208. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: D. Patrick - you're hitting the nail squarely on the head.
  209. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: J Albert, they were given timber rights as a package with to run the mill otherwise they wouldn't have timber rights.
  210. Major Pain from Canada writes: Go Danny! Let them sue under NAFTA Chapter 11, and then legislate that all suits under Chapter 11 are limited to compensation by the province of $1. About time someone stood up to the usury we've been exposed to by this rotten agreement.
  211. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Tesa - I'm sure NL lawyers will make that argument (which I don'y buy) - unfortunately for NL taxpayers is the text of Danny Boy's Bill 75 which clearly documents the expropriation. (Homesteaders in SK and MB were given land to farm - not all of them are farming today. )
  212. Can't believe it from Canada writes: J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: The 'lease' agreement is for 999 years. Long terms leases such as that are essentially ownership.

    Man you gotta stay off the sauce!!! You're not seeing straight!!!

    lease is NINETY NINE years same as 99 not 999 or NINE HUNDRED NINETY NINE years-----
  213. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Cant belibe (or cant't read) - see page 7 of Bill 75
  214. Joe Cool from Canada writes: J Akbert

    I don't think Antibi care about the timber, it will be the water generated electricity that with near zero cost of generation - no fuel cost and minimum maintenace cost - will be a cash cow. With the mill closed Antibi will be able to sell every kilowatt electricty generated. Small hydro stations such as this can be operated by two men and a dog and have a virtual license to print money.

    I'm no fan of Danny Williams but there is no way as Premier of Newfoundland he can allow a private company to suck money out of the Province without putting anything back, based on an agrrement that intended the hydro to be used for the mill.

    If push come to shove, of course, he could offer to buy the electricity from Antibi for no more that a couple of cents a KWhr, they have no where else to sell it.
  215. Hairless Joe from Canada writes: Howard Young from Canada writes:' Hairless Joe, water and timer rights are not property and those rights were lost based on the lease agreement. The only thing AB is entitled to is compensation for the fixed assets relating to the hydro power generation'
    ==================================
    Good! Thanx for the info.
  216. Can't believe it from Canada writes: Fifty cal from Austin Texas, United States writes: Ah, so you canucks want to fight the U.S. in the one area where we RULE THE WORLD!

    Well Fifty cal you best keep your powder dry!! The last time you Yanks tried to 'invade Canada' a bunch of, as you say 'injuns' and a ragged tag militia drove you fellas back to where you came from BEFORE the British Army got to back 'em up!! By now after ALL the wars you guys fight in you should have learned guerrilla warfare will always prevail!! NO???
  217. Some Thoughts from Canada writes: A clear violation under NAFTA,populist it may be, but sensible it ain't. I won't be just usually right here, I know it.
  218. Nosce te ipsum from Canada writes: Danny Williams is acting in an arbitrary and incomprehensible manner regarding this matter.
    It is one thing to bully the Canadian govt. and the Conservatives in particular, but it is another thing to take on a MNC and NAFTA. Things would work in his favour if like the petroleum industry the paper mill is a long term viable industry. It is not, and hence he will not be able to get blood from stone in this matter.
    Arbitrary and inimicable laws towards investments only drives away potential investment in that province.
    This populist move will play with Newfoundlanders, but I wonder how long it will be before he comes hat in hand to Ottawa and demand that we, the taxpayers, bail him out! With the global slowdown and esp. the oilsands in Alberta being impacted where a lot of Newfoundlanders have gone, many of them will be motivated to move back home and poor Danny boy will have to eat some crow.
  219. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: J Albert, if it was the reverse, Any US state would have done the same. In fact Americans never give an inch as they pile up their lawyers to get everything and give nothing. NAFTA was abused by them severely and Canadians were witness to that. No company can cut up their existing contracts to find the benefits that they seek based on some conjecture about another entity in another province. In fact in USA, no single state would abide by civil laws of another state themselves.
  220. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: Nosce, the only bully here is the American company that believes it can bypass its Canadian contracts.
  221. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Abitibi or anyone else in the P&P; industry wants to run mills and make products for its customers. It would be ludicrous for a company to do so while losing money - and/or being accused by locals of 'raping' the land. Why would anyone in their right minds do that. Maybe Xyx Say! is gong to open a paper mill in NL so that he can fritter away his savings. Good luck! ............

    This Company decided it was going to shut down the Mill on their own accord. The Mill operated for 100 plus years.

    AbitibiBowaters thought it could just get up and leave the province, then utilize the territory, which is 3 times the size of PEI, containing Hydro Energy capability and the Timber Resource, assets of NL worth $50 Million dollars or more annually. These assets were leased to the Company to solely operate a Paper Mill.

    This act is really despicable and unthinkable.
  222. D. Hall from Wpg, Canada writes: Danny Williams for Prime Minister!
  223. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: how ironic that after giving Harper the icy cold shoulder, and his flag issues with Paul Martin, Nfld needs the ROC to back them in their NAFTA battle...

    Derek Holtom who signed the NAFTA AGREEMENT which caused this loophole, if indeed, there is a loophole? It is an Agreement between Canada and the United States.

    Also the softwood lumber dispute is a NAFTA Dispute and Ottawa is paying for that, what is the difference?

    It wasn't Newfoundland and Labrador which signed the Agreement!
  224. Festina Lente from United States writes: Can't Believe it From Canada: Were you making comment about the Battle for New Orleans? Andy Jackson: Well, we fired our guns and the British kept a coming. Not so many left as there ahile ago!
    Hence, Britain could not reclaim her colonies.

    We want those traitors aka loyalists back so we can send then down to Gitmo. State of the art facilities there! Old scores must be dealt with. Can't sleep well at nights worrying about this!

    We will hang loyalists and then give them a trial. Old Judge Bean was a real jurist.
  225. Warron yu from Canada writes: Can't believe it from Canada writes: Fifty cal from Austin Texas, United States writes: Ah, so you canucks want to fight the U.S. in the one area where we RULE THE WORLD!

    Well Fifty cal you best keep your powder dry!! The last time you Yanks tried to 'invade Canada' a bunch of, as you say 'injuns' and a ragged tag militia drove you fellas back to where you came from BEFORE the British Army got to back 'em up!! By now after ALL the wars you guys fight in you should have learned guerrilla warfare will always prevail!! NO???
    Posted 19/12/08 at 8:19 PM EST

    -------------------------

    This is rather senseless. On feb 14th last year a agreement was signed for American troops to come up here and push us around and Canadian troops can do the same thing to Texans.

    It's called divide and conquer.

    Meanwhile we are all in the same sinking ship.

    Perhaps Danny Williams should join the Canadian Action Party. The ONLY political party that will Abrogate NAFTA and spend the next 6 months working on a FAIR trade deal.
  226. xyz Say! from Canada writes: D. Patrick from Gonzoville, Canada writes:

    There are $50 Million dollars worth of Hydro energy and Timber Resource on that piece of land which is 3 times the size of PEI.

    The Hydro Energy can be entered into the NL Energy Grid immediately for instant cash to the province.
  227. Richard Keefer from Omemee, Canada writes: Before revving up to make goofy attacks on Danny Williams, I find it amazing that most of the blowhard posters in this thread couldn't be bothered reading the original lease agreement of 1905 between the 'Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company' and the then-colony (British) of Newfoundland, which was made available by the Globe & Mail as a .pdf file.

    Given the amazing privileges gained by Anglo-Newfoundland under the agreement, the cessation of operations by Abitibi-Bowater was incredibly stupid, since it voids the intent and key provisions of the agreement. As far as I can make out, there were no clauses covering assignability or severability, so in the first regard, it could be that the agreement drifted into an vague implied form years ago, given that Abitibi-Bowater is not Anglo-Newfoundland,

    As a shareholder of Abitibi a few years ago, I came to the conclusion that a once-great company was being run into the ground by a group of idiots. If it is possible, this new lot seem to be more arrogant and even stupider. Goodness, what does NAFTA have to do with walking away from an agreement, and then perhaps regretting it afterwards?

    I'm sure any intelligent investor in Newfoundland would pay no attention to the loud grunting noises made by Abitibi-Bowater, and would regard Danny Williams as taking a position that is both responsible and well within the rights of the now-Province of Newfoundland.

  228. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes: .
    Abitibi cannot have a very strong legal case for ownership of the assets if its opening salvo consists of political posturing and threats.
  229. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: NL already has enough power for its grid. With a general decline in population - I'm not sure if getting 'free' power from another river is anything to get excited up about. More cheap power that can't be exported or stored anywhere - wilth a dwindling demand base - wahoo!

    Just reading some of the recent history between Williams and Abitibi. I'm pretty sure that Abitibi could have expected Williams to respond as he has.
  230. Cape Breton Cowboy from Glace Bay, Canada writes: Really though unless they shut down the North Sydney ferry there will always be an option for the boys from the Rock.
    There must be an unthinkable amount of money from Fort Mc flowing into the Rock.
    So the current recession will eventually affect the Rock.
    Regardless of the outcome, big corp usually trumps governments.
    Wealth is never destroyed just transferred.
  231. Hank Moody from Canada writes: Rarely do I agree with the grand pooh-bah Williams, but I like this little stunt he's pulled off. You would never see McGuinty do something like this (an action that takes guts, right or wrong). McGuinty would shrug his shoulders, blame Harper, then look to make up those lost taxes somewhere else.
  232. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Xyz! - you should go and run the mill at a loss - or stop the namecalling. Why is despicable to not run a mill at a loss? Do you think the newpapers are going to buy NL newsprint for more than market just to make you feel good?
  233. Warron yu from Canada writes:

    Maybe Danny should just give the land away to UNESCO, which was founded by a NAZI.

    Stephen Harper gave away a chunk of land 5 times the size of PEI.
    (Nahanni, NWT. Harper went up north to 'assert' soverignty)

    Dalton McGuinty has lined up Ontario's Boreal Forest, saying we need to be 'good Global Citizens'and Manitoba followed suit.
  234. jonathan leitch from Toronto, Canada writes: Williams move may just be a test case. If he wins then there may be other factors put into play. For example, say one day there is a disagreement with the oil companies would he be able to revoke their drilling operations? I would agree with the sentiment that if you are no longer in the province then what right to you have to use the resources for profit? Maybe governments should play a lot more hard ball with multinational companies who really don't give a fig about people, just the bottom line. This may be the beginning of a new relationship where corporate greed doesn't fly anymore.
  235. Eastern Edge from Canada writes: Don't forget that this is the second mill that Abitibi have shutdown in the last 3 years. Previously they shut down the Stephenville mill and at that time the Government warned them that they could lose the Crown grants related to timber and water. From my perspective the Government bent over backward to help Abitibi keep the Grand Falls operation going, including renewing power sales agreement to Nfld Hydro.

    The fact is, the Government is perfectly within their rights to retract those grants. Abitibi does not technically own water and timber rights since they were granted conditionally to support their business. Abitibi have decided to abandon their operations so those grants can revert to the crown. The expropriations are really related to the 'improvements' that Abitibi made, such as the hydro dam.

    Any legal challenge would be a waste of time, and since Abitibi are ceasing operations any NAFTA appeal is going to be a waste of time. By the way, the Government of Canada might have to respond to a NAFTA claim but water and timber rights are constitutionally a Provincial responsibility. The GOC has no jurisdiction.
  236. J S from St. John's, Canada writes: This seems to be a no brainer. Why should a company be allowed to remove/own assets after leaving? All those (maybe 2 or 3) posters who believe no company will invest in Newfoundlad, please give your head a shake. This is the fastest growing province in Canada economically and will likely be for some time now that politicians here are managing our resources properly. Good job Danny.
  237. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Albert from Toronto: Let me assure you there certainly wasn't any loyalty displayed by AbitibiBowaters in this instance. AbititbiBowaters operated in Newfoundland and Labrador for 103 years, then decided it would up and go and take $50 Million dollars worth of Hydro Energy and a Timber Resource along with it on a territory 3 times the size of PEI.

    Where is the loyalty there? I am very sure that neither the workers of that Paper Mill or the Premier of NL would have thought that AbitibiBowaters would have contemplated doing such a disloyal deed and rob it of Millions of dollars worth of resources.

    No indeed there is no loyalty there on behalf of a company which operated in NL for 103 years.

    Where are your emotions Albert? You must be operating without any emotions which centers around loyalty or honesty?

    Albert you wouldn't want that to happen to your province. Are you a big wig of AbitibiBowaters or are you heavily invested in their stock?
  238. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Hank Moody - there's a couple of sayings to keep in mind:

    1) Discretion is the better part of valour.
    2) Pride goeth before a fall

    Is it better to have a chest-thumping / knuckle-dragging leader fill of bravado - or one who looks out for the long term interests?
  239. A Van Harten from Brampton, Canada writes: Some have claimed Abitibi is a Canadian company so we have nothing to worry about. We don't know all the facts at the moment, but these commenters are revealing their lack of knowledge of how NAFTA Chapter 11 and the other lopsided investment treaties work. First, arbitrators have interpreted the treaties to allow minority foreign owners of a national company to bring a claim on behalf of the national company against its own country (see the GAMI claim under NAFTA against Mexico, where both the US and Mexico argued that the shareholders should only be able to bring a claim for their own losses and not those of the national company; the arbitrators rejected them). Second, arbitrators have gone so far as to allow a foreign shell company, 98% owned by a country's own nationals, to bring a claim against their country under an investment treaty ostensibly designed to encourage 'foreign' investment (Tokios v Ukraine). Note that the arbitrators' decision are not reviewable by any (proper) court for errors of law. It is an affront to judicial independence to allow arbitrators (read corporate-commercial lawyers for the most part) who have no security of tenure and are paid by the day to decide what legislatures can or can't do under the law. Security of tenure goes back to the English Act of Settlement of 1701, and incorporated into our constitution via the British North American Act. 'Rule of law' does not exist without an independent judiciary. Unlike other parts of NAFTA, NAFTA Chapter 11 is utterly illegitimate for this reason.
  240. Jonny Bgud from Vancouver, Canada writes: Never thought much to Danny Williams apart from trying to figure which was bigger, his ego or his mouth but I have to say I agree with his stand here. Public Service = Serve the public.
  241. Non Partisan I AM Canadian from Canada writes: 'It will be funny when Newfoundland finds itself in a position where no companies will invest capital in the Province' .. . . . I not sure Newfoundland should be too upset if companies who would rape them of their resources would decline to come to the Province.
  242. xyz Say! from Canada writes: steve allan from Canada writes: You are the one who is short on brain to make such a statement.

    We are finally taking a stand after 59 years of being shafted. This is the first time. How stupid and corrupt of a company like AbitibiBowaters to attempt to take off with Millions of dollars worth of a provinces resources on a piece of land the 3 times the size of PEI?

    In the case of clean hydro electricity it can be converted into instant cash. Holyrood, NL is operating on dirty fuel to run its operation. I am not sure whether or not it needs all of the energy, but I am pretty sure it can use some of it.
  243. Devil Bud from Canada writes: Michele K.: I'm sure you're gone by now, but Tucker Clark was the first one on this post to actually bring up the fact that it is Canada that would be sued, not Nfld. So, why you making it seem as if you were correcting him? I think that Danny loves the fact that he can stick it to corporate greed, and Harper in one awesome stroke. Gotta love the guy.
  244. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: xyz! Who said anyting about loyalty? This is newsprint. Why would anyone make something if there is not a market for it?

    Every couple of weeks, I (along with hundreds of thousands of other Torontonians) put out a huge recycling bin - mostly full of paper. The point is, there is less and less need to cut down trees to make paper - and less overall need for newprint due to use of the internet.
  245. Bobbi Zahra from Canada writes: Al Smith, are you SERIOUS?! You wrote, 'Most people in Newfoundland live well below the poverty line and starvation is rampant. What is the result? The people steal. It is in the blood of the Newfie to steal. Danny Williams steals.'

    And NOBODY rebutted this?! I cannot be the only Newfoundlander reading these comments... maybe they've just heard it all before and are tired of it, but SERIOUSLY! Neither my family nor those of my friends or relatives EVER lived even CLOSE to the poverty line, much less under it. Starvation is rampant?! You MUST be joking, right?! Only it's a lousy joke. It's in our blood to steal? Apparently you're also taking some weird hallucinogenics.

    As to your assertions, supported by 'J Albert...' about Newfoundland's status as the poorest province in Canada - did you both miss the news that for the first time since Confederation in 1949, Newfoundland is NOT receiving federal transfer payments, while Ontario IS? Newfoundlanders know that Newfoundland got a pretty raw deal with Confederation - Danny Williams is trying to reclaim what NEVER BELONGED to Abitibi, or to anybody BUT the province of Newfoundland & Labrador. You don't like it? Sucks to be you, I guess.
  246. Non Partisan I AM Canadian from Canada writes: 'Premier Williams is gonna absolutely kill the incentive for corporations to do business in his province'
    .
    .
    I bet you tell your daughter to let men rape them, so these men in question have an incentive for hanging out with said daughter too?

    Danny will kill incentive for corporations with bad INTENT to harbor within the Province....and that would suit me just fine if I lived and worked within that province.
  247. xyz Say! from Canada writes: J Albert - The Mill apparently made $9 Million dollars in profit in two months in October and November. I heard a Mill employee giving those figures to a Radio station this week.
  248. steve allan from Canada writes: ---------xyz Say! from Canada writes: steve allan from Canada writes: You are the one who is short on brain to make such a statement.

    We are finally taking a stand after 59 years of being shafted. This is the first time. How stupid and corrupt of a company like AbitibiBowaters to attempt to take off with Millions of dollars worth of a provinces resources on a piece of land the 3 times the size of PEI?----------

    Oh please. Abitibi is going broke. Have you read their financial statements. Obviously not. This is one of the highest cost mills in the world. It should have been closed years ago.

    Before you run your mouth, go look at their financial statements. Oh forget it, you don't a balance sheet from a cash flow statement. On second thought, go play bingo.
  249. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Bobbi Zahra from Canada writes: And NOBODY rebutted this???????

    Other Newfoundlanders and Labradorians noticed and read that EVIL COMMENT, matter of fact it was too EVIL to comment on. There are very sick people in this country and it appears that one of them penned here tonight.
  250. xyz Say! from Canada writes: steve allan from Canada writes: Honesly I have never played BINGO in my whole life, and I cannot understand how anyone else can do so. It would be far to boring for my type. Maybe that is your past time or why would that crazy, inane thought have even entered your mind?

    By the way, I find the 3 or 4 entrants who are anti on this site are acting very childishly. In the meantime, you might be a child, if so please forgive me.
  251. steve allan from Canada writes: Newfoundland is not receiving transfer payments?

    It will be the biggest recipient of transfer payments on a per capita basis for 2008-09.

    Like I said, GET A CLUE BEFORE YOU POST that way you avoid making a complete fool of yourself!
  252. P Martin from St. John's, Canada writes: Bobbi Zahra - It was noticed. Too stupid to comment on. Just ignored.
  253. Mike Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Hmmm...

    If there's no market for pulp, who cares who owns it?
  254. Percy from NL from Canada writes: Besides the stupid and cowardly bigots like 'Al Smith', I notice that the nay-sayers are out in force again.

    I remember them saying that the NL off-shore oil industry was nothing more than a make-work project. Oops, that turned out to be totally wrong. I remember them saying that NL holding out on the Hebron negotiations was poor business practice. Oops, that turned out to be totally wrong as well. And now their back whining about the AbitibiBowater situation. I guess someone people never learn, even when they've been proven wrong time and time again.
  255. Can't believe it from Canada writes: Warron yu from Canada -- What you said !!! We could ONLY wish!! If ya can't get 'em with bullets, get 'em with the 'LAW'....NAFTA should never have been signed in the first place....one of the worst agreements Canada ever got involved with....bar none! Free, maybe....fair?...no.....

    Festina Lente from United States -- Were you making comment about the Battle for New Orleans? --- No, actually it was a little closer to the 49th.....but you know that , don't you??
  256. bill bocher from Canada writes: Bottom Line: Unions made this mill uneconomic and had to shut down. Unions are running the mills and auto factories into the ground and wonder why there are no jobs left for them. Their mentality needs to change. They need to stop thinking thry are entitled to have the company provide them a job and everything else they demand. You should earn your raises not blackmail the company for wages that are unrealistic and not in line with competitors salaries. Why not make your business competitive and profitible if you can do it somewhere else free of leahing unions? Unions are obsolete. We have proper rules and regulations in this country already. It is not like it's the old days anymore. Companies can't get away with treating people like they did. As soon as a union is involved with any company, you might as well start counting the days until that company can no longer survive.
  257. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: xyz! - individual production facilities in an integrated / commodity market don't make/lose money. Generally companies 'credit' production managers with a set 'transfer price' as an internal metric. This transfer price doesn't necessarily keep up with market conditions.

    Newsprint capacity in North America has been dropping like a rock over the last decade - even before the current econmic downturn.
  258. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Percy from NL from Canada writes: Besides the stupid and cowardly bigots like 'Al Smith', I notice that the nay-sayers are out in force again....

    Yes, Percy and now they are angry because Newfoundland and Labrador is not about to allow a piece of its territory to be confiscated by outsiders, which is 3 times the size of Prince Edward Island, and which contains $50 Million dollars worth of coveted Hydroelectricity in today dollars and a Timber Resource that is worth Millions more. The Hydroelectricity can be utilized, I am pretty sure immediately and can be converted into instant cash. Hydroelectrcity is a license to print money, as we all know.
  259. Percy from NL from Canada writes: So can our knowledgeable posters please tell us how much of each federal transfer dollar actually goes to NL? Is it 20 cents, 15 cents, 10 cents, 5 cents, or 2 cents? Which is closest to the correct number?
  260. David Bakody from Dartmouth, Canada writes: It appears to me that Danny Boy remembers Harper's first move on the softwood lumber deal. Canada had won hands down on that NAFT court.... and Harper via sell em out Emerson gave Bush one billion dollars as a birthday gift..... Hello... and y'all thought we forgot eh..... go get em Danny.... full speed ahead..... Newfoundland belongs to Newfoundlanders and Labourians.... plain and simple... and the plant, timber and water rights are theirs.... and by the way Harper has plans to sell Canada's water.... so think about that.... our water was gonzo had he won a majority...... So Danny is fighting for us all...... Go Danny Go....
  261. garlick toast from Canada writes: Our natural resources exist to create wealth for Canadians, not to be used as chips in corporate poker games. N/L should invest in the wood pellet industry. There's a large and growing market in Europe and their location gives them a shorter shipping route.
  262. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: xyx! - I suppose everyone in NL could string up some Xmas lights. Maybe you can take some of the incandescents that are on their way out and use them. Ship us your compact fluorescents. Electricty is only worth something if there is a use for it. With mills closing and people emigrating - whaddya going to do with all that juice?
  263. steve allan from Canada writes: Here's the equalization payments for 2008-09 -

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp
  264. Percy from NL from Canada writes: xyz Say! from Canada

    I have a number of theories why so many get all upset with NL and its recent progress. But more and more I'm convinced that most of them are middle-aged or older and have told their children alot of BS about the people of NL over the years. Now we're beginning to make them look totally stupid to their children and they are not happy about it.

    Of course the central Canadian media is struggling with the same problem with their readers and the garbage they have written about us over the years.
  265. George Smith from Canada writes: bill bocher from Canada:

    Bottom Line - Unions aren't going anywhere - grow up and get used to it. This mill would be uneconomic even if you were running it with slave labour. There is a rapidly declining market for paper is case your didn't notice while reading this on your computer monitor.

    Your hatred of Unions is something you should get some help with.

    Hatred is a waste of time.
  266. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Funny, I don't recall NL signing on to NAFTA...

    For some strange reason, I cannot seem to get nearly enough wood pellets for my pellet stove in Halifax...

    So why don't we let the courts have a look at what was in that 1905 contract between the Province of NL and AbitibiBowater...

    Simple enough, eh ?

    Slainte
  267. Eastern Edge from Canada writes: J Albert from Toronto- are you just slow or are you stupid? Oh yeah, stupid is as stupid does - Gump 'Electricty is only worth something if there is a use for it'. and I suppose you still light your home with candles. Well I've been to Toronto and I think you guys need all the juice we can generate.
  268. xyz Say! from Canada writes: J Albert - You are not coming across as a comedian, but more like a very hateful person. You sound so much like the school yard bullies, who in today's world are causing so much stress amongst children. Maybe it is time that you sought help for your worrisome syndrome!
  269. Percy from NL from Canada writes: steve allan from Canada

    Could you answer my 9:35 PM post about the amount of each total federal transfer dollar that goes to NL? I'm curious whether or not its closest to 20 cents, 15 cents, 10 cents, 5 cents, or 2 cents. Canadian taxpayers are curious as well I expect. So why don't you tell us?
  270. ali mansur from etobicoke, Canada writes: Once AbitibiBowater loses the case, and I hope it drags on for decades, the federal government should prohibit governmental dealings with any company affiliated with A-B. And further, they should also prohibit dealings with any company associated with the current directorship or executive of A-B.

    This action would be non-discriminatory under NAFTA.

    I'd also like to say that when it comes to resources, people will deal with you no matter what.

    However, we should start building some small scale nukes just in case the U.S. gets unruly.
  271. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Percy from NL from Canada writes:I have a number of theories...

    I have a theory as well. Maybe they are the $78 dollar per hour Auto Workers who have so many perks, amongst them 10 Spa Days per year and many other ridiculous items. While fishers whose resource, namely 'fish quotas' have been utilized by Ottawa to enable the sale of their products have had to work for $12 dollars per hour and NOTHING MORE.

    By the way Percy did you see the list of perks these workers have had negotiated into their wage contracts? Make no wonder that automobiles and auto parts they produce became so expensive that they couldn't be sold.
  272. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Xy! - are you going to take your toys and go home? Nothing comefic intended. Williams is harming Canada's reputation and all Canadians.

    Eastern Edge - if you've invented a way to get power from the Island to Toronto, don't waste your time posting on this board. Get ye to the US Patent Office forthwith!
  273. xyz Say! from Canada writes: J Albert you are in the 2 per cent Anti Group on this site, maybe it is time that you say Nighty, Night! My toys are all stowed away in my toybox.

    Goodnight J. Albert! I will talk, MAYBE, in the new day!
  274. Percy from NL from Canada writes: If I were in any other jurisdiction in the future I would be very cautious about doing business with a company that thinks they actually own what they lease, and they even think that way after they've broken the lease deal themselves.
  275. Eastern Edge from Canada writes: J Albert - Your previous comments had me assuming you were a bit mentally challenged, but obviously your intellect extends to being able to reference google maps. Yes I agree the intent of our focus on hydroelectric power is not solely on lighting up YOUR Christmas lights. In fact we have been conspiring for years for an opportunity to use that power for OUR Christmas lights. Sorry for the deliberate attempt to mislead you into turning off your many power generation facilities, both dirty and semi-dirty. I fully understand your desire to ensure the nether-regions of this Country continue to be completely sub-servient to the whims and desires of that great metropolis at the centre. Merry Christmas
  276. William MacPherson from Cape Breton, Canada writes: Danny keep on looking after your people and showing what leadership is all about. I have not been able to get any wood pellets for over a month. The last 40lb bag cost $5.99, for compressed spruce pellets. You can turn that mill into a wood pellet factory and keep those people working using NL natural resources.
  277. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Eastern 'Gone off the?' Edge - you've aspired to write something clever. Keep trying! (As they say, there's always hope.)

    I was referring to your Xmas trees. With the extra power Danny Boy is expropriating for you, you can run more lights. I would love to be able to tap into your power gride, but I lent out my extension cord to my cousin the contractor. Bad idea - neither I nor his customers have seen him in weeks.

    I have no wish for you to be subservient to anyone. However, I don't need your newsprint and can't use your hydro power.
  278. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: xyz! I guess better to be anti-group (whatever that means) that anti-matter.
  279. Art Gopher from Vancouver, Canada writes: The thing the pro-Abitibi folks don't get is that appurtenancy has been a key fundamental in awarding tenure rights across Canada for more than a century. This means that government provides a long-term lease (25 years, renewable, on average) to extract timber resources on provincial crown land - public land - that is tied to the production of forest products like lumber or paper at a mill in the community. If the mill shuts down, they lose the lease on the resource. It provided the backbone of this country's development for more than 100 years.

    This land is OURS. The province also provides tax-cuts and incentives for the company to build a mill and hire local people. The company proceeds to harvest said resources, and replant the trees (at least in the last 20 or so years where necessary). Stewardship has vastly improved, contrary to some naysayers who ignore expanding urban malls and condo developments as DEFORESTATION and have never seen second or third growth forests that are often mistaken as virgin.

    Reality check - Ontario mills shut down over the past 10 years and the government simply reallocates the resource or moves the raw wood to a location where it can be milled or converted into paper - often at the cost of jobs in the community where the forest is located. Community stability is sacrificed, people move, towns die.

    I say WAY TO GO NEWFOUNDLAND! Thank you for finally sticking up for your communities and rights to the resource the way that Ontario never has. Now, hopefully BC follows the NFLD example and ignores Ontario as it (sadly) sinks further into depression.
  280. MD Kachmar from Bubbleville, Canada writes: Danny Williams' style is controversial to say the least but do not discount the possibility that he might enter the federal political arena in the not to distant future.

    Prime Minister Williams, anyone?
  281. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Art Gopher - it's not about pro-Abitibi or pro-Williams. The point is about whether companies can enter into agreements with governments and not have them abrogated. The P&P; industry is tough - demand is falling for newsprint. I don't see that coming back - a gradual decline at best. I guess timber that is not good for construction grade could become fuel. I'm not sure of the economics - or whether the fuel can burn cleanly enough for urban use.

    I'm not sure if NL 'standing up for communities' is helping. Is the Abitibit plant staying open? No. Has Williams made it less likely that someone else will want to operate a mill? Yes.
  282. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Wow, it seems that a shortage of wood pellets in Atlantic Canada is a more common problem than just mine as a few other posters have already mentioned this too...

    And yet, a company like Abitibi Bowater seems to feel that NAFTA somehow protects their rights to perpetually LEASE Atlantic Canadian lands so that forest products CANNOT be made here...

    A product that I want to buy and cannot seem to buy in my own backyard (despite the potential,) but I will now be taxed to pay for products that I don't want to buy being made in other people's backwards...

    Funny World....

    Let's have more information on what is contained in that 1905 Contract between the Province of NL and AbitibiBowater.

    Shall we ?
  283. garlick toast from Canada writes: Wood pellet stoves and furnaces burn very cleanly, so efficient that they don't need a real chimney. In Europe it is common to have a water jacket in the stoves and therefore be able to hook up hotwater radiators to them.
  284. Art Gopher from Vancouver, Canada writes: A contract lasting since 1905 demonstrates that the province honours its agreements.

    A company that attempts to bypass a contract with smoke and mirrors does not reflect badly on the province.

    You are correct about the future of the pulp and paper industry, and the expropriation of the assets was a bit of a stretch. However as in the case of the Weyerhaeuser mill in Prince Albert Saskatchewan, that the mill will attempt to sell its mill AND associated lease on provincial resources at a premium. With no buyer, the town slowly dies.

    I give Williams credit for not waiting for the eventual death or being held hostage by some foreign owned company. At lease this way they control the destiny of their resources, not Abitibi.

    Also, refer to the Abitibi consolidated closure in Kenora Ontario, another sad example of Ontario selling out public resources to foreigners.
  285. Herb Martin from Prince George, Canada writes: Danny Williams was smart enough to look at Mackenzie BC,Gold River BC, Kenora Ont., Chandler PQ, Stephenville NL, where Abitibi-Bowater has shut mills down in the last 10 years. About time someone has the guts to say stop. And at the moment Abitibi can't even afford lawyers to fight . At $0.40 share price they'll be lucky to make it through the year. They will take whatever the NL government gives them and will say Thank You!
  286. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: Art - I'm not sure if I'd give credit for keeping with a contract for part of the time. (Say - I'll give you my umbrella for $10 - but I might come and take it back if it starts raining )

    According to you your theory, Abibiti would have simply to keep operating the plant (at - say - 1 ton per year) to keep with the terms of the 'lease'. Regardless, NL has no case now that Bill 75 officialy states that the company had rights and that the law expropriated them. (No better ammo in a court case than a law written by your opponent that explicitly provdes your case.)

    I'm guessing that the shareholder base for Abitibi is in large part Canadian. Most of the head office functions are in Montreal. (The official head office address is on Metcalfe.) I think agreements should be enforced with foreign corporations as they are with domestic companies.
  287. Art Gopher from Vancouver, Canada writes: J Albert. The umbrella analogy doesn't work in this case, since what we're talking about isn't a chattel but a renewable resource....maybe a dairy cow would be better. Lease the cow to allow someone to milk it and keep the cow alive so it continues to give milk. When the cow's production slows down because the people providing the financing to keep the cow alive want to make more money, the cow gets skinny. Now the cow's owner wants the cow back and will pay current market value for the milking machines. It's a pretty frail cow and not worth much anymore, but the company says because they've milked the cow for so long they now own it??? unreal.

    Whether it's legal is beside the point. I'd say the owner of the cow has the moral imperative to get the cow back and bring it back to life.

    Lawyers....pshhwww
  288. Brian Fisher from Nanaimo, Canada writes: Mr. Paterson -- Get out of our Country !

    Hurray for Danny Williams and a semi-polite 'Bugger off' to you Mr. Paterson.
    Finally a Canadian politician is standing up against you carpet baggers.
    I hope you leave the country completely and forever.
    You are not dealing with Harper or Emerson or Campbell here. You won't buy Williams for a shoddy
    political contribution. You are dealing with a Canadian who is doing his job. I only wish my province had a premier with integrity. Our country is being stolen from under us.
    Live up to your agreement in full or get out!
    Perhaps we'll compensate you what you paid for our assets under
    your control. (Oh yeh, that's right, you didn't pay anything did you? You just made a promise which you want to break without penalty)
    Time and again, American firms come into Canada and try to take the grain and leave the chaff.
    Obama is going to cancel the NAFTA anyway ( It's so unfair, right)
    Get Out! Go away! Find some other country to rape and pillage!
    Good riddance.
    Brian Fisher
  289. The Bubble from Canada writes: The legacy of Lyin Brian and NAFTA. 20 years ago the issues were not clear but the Americans knew the resources were finite and had to secure all of Canada's resources for themselves. Brian Mulroney gave the Americans the right to take away anything they want. It's time to break up the country because the federal politicians are only beholden to Washington. Quebec will be sitting ducks with Harper and the citizens of Canada will be completely sold out by the likes of Harper, Flaherty and weasel face Clement. Given that Harper has stomped all over what little democracy Canada has, the argument that Canada's image will be damaged is moot.
  290. desiderio manzanal jr from sunshine, Canada writes: Multinational have significant influence in canada and that is backed by their influence in many other countries. These corporation have learned to play countries against each other to break Unions and to lower labor cost to increase profit. Of course most of us or some of us who buys shares in these companies would not not like it when countries expropriate because its destroys our investment. Its like investing in Venezuela, one day you up and the next day your expropriated. However its is understandable, after years of local goverment aid to supports these local operations and after years of profit these multinational cannot just move without having contributed. They must meet their obligation to the community. YEAH a bit socialist. Yes it is because we are paying high prices in taxes year after year giving away our hard earned money to the canadian and provincial government and they in turn give this money to these multinational promising jobs for local communites. It is socialism for the multinationals as long as they are making the profit and we are taking all the risk. Another example is how alberta tar sand projects are mainly owned by other countries but we certainly gave them significant aid to start the project. Our royalty are nowhere near the royalties of other oil producing coutries like Saudi Arabia. In Yemen, the goverment demands their 50 percent of barrel pumped out. Can you imagine if Canada have kept Petro Canada and if we have invested on developing the tarsand ourselves. For several years at 3 to 4 million barrels of oil over 80 dollars a barrel we would have significantly reduced our national debt. In addition, having our own energy production at home should protect us from the world market speculation that raised the price of oil to 150 dollars. Our oil is profitable at 40 dollars a barrel. A stable energy pricing supports strong economy. Expect the price of oil to move back up when the economy recovers...
  291. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: This is a bombshell ----http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/exec/0727n03.htm----
    I agree Danny this demand by Abitbi is out of all reason, tell them to go home. DO NOT GIVE IN TO THESE BLACKMAILERS.
  292. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: In addition to the fact that the Province of NL had not signed the NAFTA agreement, I had also briefly forgotten that President Obama had previously indicated that he would be cancelling NAFTA...

    The 1905 Contract between the Province of NL and AbitibiBowater really seems to be the more important agreement here...

    It seems ridiculous that Premier Williams would continue to LEASE Crown lands to a party that clearly hasn't maintained their part of this contract...

    Why not turn that whole thing into one giant wood pellet factory, M. Williams, and you can supply the world with these much needed products while also maintaining some local employment in Atlantic Canada ?

    Good thinking.

    Slainte
  293. John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: Great political manoeuvre but a really stupid legal move. Williams and NL are going to lose their shirts in Court. Mind you Williams will probably not be in power by the time the court case is resolved. I guess in the end its the people of NL that will have to live with the legacy of Williams ego. dumb, dumb, dumb...
  294. The Bubble from Canada writes: The markets will always be subject to politics, that's just part of the gamble. All is fair in love, business and war.
  295. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada:

    Have you reviewed the aforementioned 1905 contract that the Province of NL has maintained their part of while AbitibiBowater hasn't ?

    Or are you just speaking off the top of your head ?

    The way it is looking to me is that we all may be losing our shirts to the Big 3 and the CAW to attempt to keep the likes of your Province afloat again...

    Good move by Williams to do what is in the best interest of his Province if you ask me...

    Slainte
  296. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: 'This is a bombshell ----http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/exec/0727n03.htm----...'

    Uh Still Learning...? That news release is 3 years old. You knew that right?
  297. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: 'Great political manoeuvre but a really stupid legal move. Williams and NL are going to lose their shirts in Court....'

    On what legal principle do you base this John?

    A-B negotiated a lease agreement based on the condition that they operate a mill in N&L.;

    Once they shut down operations, they were no longer keeping their part of the lease agreement, ergo the gov't is well within its rights to take back their leased lands?

    N&L; never 'sold' any property rights to A-B, yet A-B are acting as if they did!? As far as I am aware, there are no squatters rights here either.
  298. george abraham from Ottawa, Canada writes: AbitibiBowater is the worst run pulp and paper company in the entire world and it has the record to prove it. Good job Danny. Transfer the assets to Kruger and they will make a go of it.
  299. little bowpeep from Canada Sucks, Canada writes: I love this story. The resource czars are out in force. Only in Canada is a lease on a public resource considered ownership, Eh! So the absolutely worst thing a politician can do is stand up for the taxpayer, time to put resource lease losers on notice, you don't follow the rules and you and your pinons lose. To the other provincial leaders, you had better start charging world scale royalties if you expect the public to pay world prices for the commodities. To all who disagree, maybe I should lease some of those empty government buildings, then I will sell them and tell the government too bad!
  300. Older Better from New Brunswick, Canada writes: Abitibi... did you quit or were you fired?!... lol You can sue for wrongful dismissal, and the lawyers will get rich, and you'll still be gone and NL will control the resources... as they should. If you want to come and work, we'll welcome you. When you're ready to leave... go! The trees and water will still be there... for the people!
    Danny must have trouble sitting with a set like that but... give him a beer and something to lean on.
  301. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: J Albert we have people returning to this province. We have people moving here.We have had a plus on the population side the last several years.Yes we have a good power grid and yes we will probably end up with the hydro plant from Abitibi.However we own the resources the company has been using in an agreement signed back in 1905.How hard is that for people to accept and understand.What the company wants to do here is have its cake and eat it wihout any beneifit to the province or its people .Not going to happen on Mr Williams watch.When he ran for premier it was on the premis that there will be no more giveaway's.That he is holding to.imagine a politician keeping his word.that may be what is scaring people like you and others here.Its unfamiliar territory.This thought that we will scare away companies from wanting to come here is absolute hogwash.If companies are legit and good corporate citizens there will never be issues.If they are like Abitibi we don't want them any way.
  302. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Art Gopher from Vancouver, Canada writes: A contract lasting since 1905 demonstrates that the province honours its agreements.

    A company that attempts to bypass a contract with smoke and mirrors does not reflect badly on the province........

    ***WELL SAID MR. ART GOPHER and THANKS FOR SAYING IT!***
  303. Maybe LLB from Toronto, Canada writes: It would be great if The Globe (or someone) published the text of the 1905 Contract.

    The dispute will turn on whether the rights conferred by the contract amount to a license or a property right.

    Once we know this, it will be relatively easy to determine the winner, under Canadian Law at least.

    Chapter 11 is a complicating factor though, for a tribunal may apply a different legal standard.
  304. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: XYZ Says.Well my friend we are doing the right thing here and defending this province and the decision of its leader.Fortunately on this issue the majority of our fellow Canadians are on side as well.Where would any province be if we left the resources to the control of private enterprise.In this case I think those who appear opposed are missing the point of the lease agreement and what Abitibi is really trying to do.Good corporate citizens will be welcome here with open arms.Those such as Abitibi can go elsewhere.It is ironic that this company made billions off the backs of the province,yet still feels the need to try and screw the province out of more.Hopefully they become the ones who get screwed.Premier Williams I implore you to not back down.You have the best interest of the province at heart and the support of its citizens .100%
  305. Maximus Bishop from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: You all can see what's wrong with the NAFTA now with this situation in Newfoundland and Labrador, leave it to a large USA Corporation with a Canadian HQ in Montreal try to steal Water and Hydro rights from the people of one of the Canadian Province's, ie carry the big stick and have agreements by different governments to make this possible, despite what some Government officials have stated, Canada got the dirty end of this stick when it signed the NAFTA accord!
  306. George Nason from Canada writes: R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Funny, I don't recall NL signing on to NAFTA...

    For some strange reason, I cannot seem to get nearly enough wood pellets for my pellet stove in Halifax...
    ----------------------

    No pellets here in the valley either, but I do have a theory.
    Many folks here were thinking about installing pellet stoves due to the high price of home heating fuel last year. Maybe a few thousand folks did that around the maritimes. I would be interested in any data that somebody might have. I worked in a pellet mill about 15 years ago and gosh they were simple to make, the hardest part was loading them on a truck. Easy money maker for a lumber mill. As for NL, I have to agree with Danny on this one, it's high time company's stop gouging the country's that they work in, there is to many Monsanto's in this world.
  307. Anne Peterson from Canada writes: NAFTA should be renegotiated anyway to get rid of those clauses that protect business from any responsibility. We were made serfs in the past by all the concessions to business. We should break free. You hear that Alberta. Look to Norway.
  308. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: It is somewhat humorus reading these blogs in particular you 'armchair' lawyers giving legal opinons on something that you are completely clueless and unqualified to do. Your dribble is evidence of ignornace as well as your envy of Newfoundland and the pragmatic leadersip of Mr. Williams. You 'politically correct' losers might be finding this painful but my suggestion is that you get used to it.

    Oh, by the way, I am just cuious but Mr. Williams' accomplishments include being rodes scholar, an accomplished lawyer and a self made millionaire. How do you 'arm chair' lawyers benchmark to that.
  309. Rog in ontario from Tillsonburg, Canada writes: Way to go Danny W! As has been said many times above - a politician who understands the best interests of his province - knows what to do - and does it! The people of NL should be mighty proud to have a Premier like Danny Williams.
  310. PANIC! At The Ice Floe from Ottawa, Canada writes: Could someone, anyone please tell me why this is not like Castro's moves in Cuba?

    Seriously...This smacks of Cuban-style leadership, no?
  311. Straw Dog from Kitchener, Canada writes: Under Nafta rules the US has first dibs on all Canadian resources, including water, gas, timber, etc. This deal, that strips Canadians of all rights to water and minerals in their own country, was negotiated by the Coservatives under Brian Mulroney. This guy should burn in Hell!
  312. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: 'This is a bombshell ----http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/exec/0727n03.htm----...'

    Uh Still Learning...? That news release is 3 years old. You knew that right? :

    Yes 3 years old. Did you read what Abitbi wanted from NL. I would never sign a agreement like that in a 1000 years. Danny is right to tell them no way.
  313. Dave Snowdon from Ottawa, Canada writes: Hey Federal Liberal Party:
    Do you see what kind of leader Canadians WANT ?

    Drop all current wannabe leader IGnorants, and see if Danny will take the helm.
  314. Arvid Hambler from Scarborough, Canada writes: Danny for Prime Minister ! He'd have to find a different party though: can you imagine him leading a team with the likes of Peter van Loon, Rona Ambrose and Stockwell Day?
  315. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Danny is a member of a different part. The Progressive Conserative Party.
  316. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: When did Hugo Chavez take over Newfoundland? With oil revenue down, they are back in the pits. Having alienated the Federal Conservatives, this is just Williams way of distracting attention from oncoming problems.
  317. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Straw Dog from Kitchener, Canada writes: Under Nafta rules the US has first dibs on all Canadian resources, including water, gas, timber, etc. This deal, that strips Canadians of all rights to water and minerals in their own country, was negotiated by the Coservatives under Brian Mulroney. This guy should burn in Hell!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey, don't worry about NAFTA, Chretien is going to scrap it. Remember?
  318. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: The more that I see from Mr. Williams the more that I realize that no other Canadian politician likely has better answers and can effectively generate the necessary solutions in dealing with his Province's problems...

    Danny ain't waiting for a nice taxpayer funded Federal bailout here like some other Premiers (Hello, Dalton) are doing ...

    He is simply keeping his own end of a contract that both parties have respected since 1905...

    If a tenant doesn't pay his/her rent, they don't get to claim the right to still breathe the air within the apartment...

    It's called a LEASE...

    Slainte
  319. Henry Wysmulek from Winnipeg, writes: All this time I thought NL was a part of Canada, not Cuba.

    Do you people seriously think you will find any companies willing to invest in your area after this?
  320. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Knotter 49 writes Williams alienated the Federal Conseratives, not so, the Federal Conseratives alienated Newfoundlandand. These same Federal Conseratives have in 60 days since the election alienated the whole country.
  321. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Knotter 49 your are a twit.Your comaprison to Hugo Chavez certainly shows your colours. Are you sure your not some communist half wit who wants to be a Chavez himself.Get a life you nitwit. Your comparison is so far back in the woods ,you have to come out to hunt.You my boy are a girl
  322. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Knotter 49 your are a twit.Your comaprison to Hugo Chavez certainly shows your colours. Are you sure your not some communist half wit who wants to be a Chavez himself.Get a life you nitwit. Your comparison is so far back in the woods ,you have to come out to hunt.You my boy are a girl
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Are you sure you're supposed to have access to a computer? For heaven's sake at least use the spell checker.
  323. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: Straw Dog from Kitchener, Canada writes: Under Nafta rules the US has first dibs on all Canadian resources, including water, gas, timber, etc. This deal, that strips Canadians of all rights to water and minerals in their own country, was negotiated by the Coservatives under Brian Mulroney. This guy should burn in Hell! -- Straw dog, if you do a bit of research on this instead of just repeating the Liberal brainwashing talking points, you will find out that Mulroney was working on what was called FTA. At the time, Chretien campaigned saying that he would cancel NAFTA . By the time he was elected based on this promise, among many other that he broke (remember the GST), although NAFTA has been agreed upon, it was still in the stage where it could be ratified by both congress and Ottawa. However, he had changed his mind and NAFTA was finallized under his leadership. It was then and through him that NAFTA was finallized and he is the one that gave away most of our rights to the US. By the way, he had won a extremly large majority and he could have done whatever he wanted. However, for some reason, the liberal once again got away with it without a peep about this in the media and somehow have made Mulroney the bad guy in this affair.
  324. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Awe Knotter 49 Did I offend you by calling you a communist or the equivelent of one with your idiotic comments.People like you have a retort of small mindedness when taken to task for dumb a$$ comments.Your lack of knowledge of the issue here and tour idiotic comparison are offensive to say the least.Don't like being taken to task for it ?TOO BAD.
  325. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Awe Knotter 49 Did I offend you by calling you a communist or the equivelent of one with your idiotic comments.People like you have a retort of small mindedness when taken to task for dumb a$$ comments.Your lack of knowledge of the issue here and tour idiotic comparison are offensive to say the least.Don't like being taken to task for it ?TOO BAD.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Please take your medications as soon as possible. Keep working on that spelling. Later we'll see if you can put together a coherent thought. Remember always take your meds.
  326. Panty in a knot from vancouver, Canada writes: This mill is too old, too far away, too expensive wood, too expensive labour and too low product prices.

    Any government efforts to re-kindle uneconomic businesses are short-sighted. Should help training workers for new tech industries where canada can compete.
  327. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: knotter 49 is recomending that steadfast should put together a coherent thought. Question to Knotter 49: What makes you you confident you would reconize a coherent thought?

  328. Mark S Noel from Canada writes: And Williams finds himself another windmill! Charggggge!!!
  329. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    Williams for premier of Ontario!

    Finally a politician that stands up for his province rather than feathering the nests of the special interests.

    Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, regardless of whether he wins or loses, this is the sort of leader this country needs. A man of principle!
  330. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Henry Wsymulek from Canada :

    Wow, where to begin with that idiotic post comparing NL and Cuba ?

    What's going on in Ontario with the CAW and Federal taxpayer's moneys is far more comparable to Communism in my mind...

    Danny Williams is merely expecting a corporate citizen to live up to the written agreement that has been in place since 1905...

    If AB doesn't provide any jobs locally, they don't have any claim to continue their LEASES of NL's resources...

    Let some other company have those rights that will get the job done.

    I fail to see how that is so hard to understand ?

    I called around all the local hardware stores, and still cannot get any wood pellets today...

    Amazes me that no one is bothering to meet the needs of the growing wood pellet market while Atlantic Canadian mills are closing down...

    Slainte
  331. C Osborn from Canada writes: Good on you Danny Williams

    After loosing the fishing industry to over fishing and global interests Newfoundland has learned a valuable lesson. It is time to play hardball with these corporate pillagers who take everything and give very little in return.

    Danny Williams
    He's our man
    If he can't protect the provinces resources from greedy corporations and robber barons
    Then no one can!
  332. Red Minotaur from Ottawa, Canada writes: Hugo Chavez, northern version. The politics of confrontation is ugly and ultimately less productive than the politics of collaboration and mutual interest.
  333. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...stand up for Canada Danny!....someone has to......
  334. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Red Minotaur from Ottawa...Chavez, unlike our current PM, has a Majority government and is considered a hero by many......So Danny Williams confronts a foreign multinational intent on breaking its contract with his province....what is your problem with that?.....
  335. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Red Minotaur, is there a point to your sillineess. Other than your foolish referrence to 'Hogo Chavez' What wou you do if you were in Willimas place? Please be specificm what does collaboration and mutual interest mean in this instance

    Thank you
  336. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Panty in a knot from vancouver, Canada writes: This mill is too old, too far away, .....

    Too far from where, Newfoundland and Labrador is centered half way between the industrial area of the United States and Canada, and Europe. It is centered much closer to Europe than is any other place in North America, matter of fact, it is just over 3000 kilometers in distance from England AND Ireland and Newfoundland and Labrador has the EXTRA ADVANTAGE that it is situated on thousands of kilometers of the Atlantic Ocean where the trade routes run next door.

    Do you realize that most of the Worlds trade is carted around the world through Ocean Travel. There is no other way to get goods from China and the other places that goods are produced for the N.A. Continent than by water. At least a mode of travel that would make it as cheap.

    The company has a ready supply of wood and hydroelectricity which certainly is a great advantage which would cut down on costs. Don't believe everything that industry tells you.
  337. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Yes AbitibiBowaters operated on a terriotry which had a ready supply of coveted Hydroelectric Energy and Wood fibre, and it had a location in relation to world markets that was second to none.

    The problem here for Grand Falls is AbitibiBowaters's other operations were not profitable and they needed fuel. It also held too many Paper Mills. It recognized that it hald a license to print money from the Hydroelectric Energy that it held in its possession, so it decided it would take advantage by closing down the Grand Falls operation and becoming a power company.
  338. L. Eisely from Canada writes: Let's do the math: approximately
    11 billions in assets,,
    8-9 billions in debts,
    earn. per share minus 20$,
    52,400000 millions shares at 0.53 cents, for approx. 30 millions$,

    Can they even afford to sue?

    Another takeover, liquidation or 'managed bankruptcy' case?
  339. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Knotter 49 My meds are fine and I do need them to calm me down when clods like you try to make points on issues of which you are lacking serious
    knowledge.Your mental instability with comments of Chavez speak volumes.At least I can admit when I am wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.Whats your excuse?I will take This premier and his stance any day over some company wanting to control the resources of the people .WOULD YOU?.I tHINK NOT.Please try to have a serious, sensible thought regarding this matter.As hard as it may be.
  340. Brian L from Canada writes: So Abitibi has operated the mill since 1905. 103 years later, in terrible economic conditions and with an intransigent labor force, it finally capitulates and shuts it down.

    Corporate pillager??? Looks like they have been a solid corporate citizen in NL for over 100 years.

    And Williams' response......expropriation......kind of like the government deciding on a whim to take away my house, our bank accounts.....exactly the same thing.

    For those applauding this silly move, please give your head a shake. All governments, from Alberta to Newfoundland to Venezuala, require the investment and risk-taking of businesses to produce 'OUR RESOURCES', employ US and generally raise the living standards of all Canadians. Businesses are about dollars, taxes and jobs; governments create nothing.

    WE don't have the money to do it ourselves, as every lame-brained politician from Trudeau to the silly Stelmach to Williams has learned to their dismay.

    Idiots all but Mr. Williams is a poster boy.
  341. Brian L from Canada writes: And to the idiots applauding this move, consider the 10s of millions, perhaps 100s of millions of investment Abitibi has made in the resources and infrastructure of NL over the past 103 years.

    And consider as well how many people they have employed over that period, multiple generations of Newfoundlanders, and taxes they have paid.

    Do you honestly think that a midget like Danny Williams can replace that.

    No. Like he did with the oil companies he will have capitulate (please don't bore me with the story that he won that negotiation, he caved) and hope to attract new companies to invest in the future.

    What a dummy.
  342. Percy from NL from Canada writes: Brian L from Canada

    Besides that long-winded post ... Do you even know the conditions of the century-old leasing contract? And do you know which party first broke the conditions of that contract?
  343. Brian L from Canada writes: A fact of life that the generally soft minded readers and editors of the G&M; universally fail to understand is that Canada, coast to coast, is reliant on foreign investment to develop our resources, provide jobs, pay taxes (directly and indirectly, through employees and contractors) and fund our overly generous health and welfare programs.

    We are a vast land mass, rich in resources, with a very small population. We don't have the money to develop our resources ourselves.

    And yet the common theme of this publication and its readers is that foreign investment, and indeed corporations generally, are a bad thing.

    And without that necessary risk-taking and investment, our huge valuable resources, stuck in the ground, employing nobody, paying no taxes to the state are worth.......how much?

    But you are right, they are ours. Idiots.
  344. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Brian L from Canada writes:
    For those applauding this silly move, please give your head a shake. All governments, from Alberta to Newfoundland to Venezuala, require the investment and risk-taking of businesses to produce 'OUR RESOURCES', employ US and generally raise the living standards of all Canadians. Businesses are about dollars, taxes and jobs.....

    But what we don't need is after they have had a 103 years of being patronized with energy and fiber so as to operate profitably, was for them tothen turn around and close the Mill, and confiscate NL territory, which is 3 times the size of PEI and all the resources thereon, for which those assets can only be described as a license to print money, especially coveted Hydroelectric Power.

    What is Grand Falls going to live on? Let Grand Falls sell the Hydroelectric Power and Wood Fiber so that it can exist.

    The NAFTA AGREEMENT was a false and fickel as the economies that were created under the scheme.
  345. Percy from NL from Canada writes: Brian L from Canada

    I asked you a question dealing with the substance of this matter. So far all you have said is nothing but hot air.
  346. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Brian L do you even understand the reasoning behind the move made by Mr Williams.Seems like you don't with the comments you have made.any province needs companies to come in set up and creat employment using that provinces resources.However where do you draw the line when these companies want to leave and still maintain control over these resources.If Abitibi no longer wants to operate from this province why are they so hell bent on keeping this rich resource.Their main reason is to become a power company and sell the hydro that they generate to this province.No cost ,creat little employment yet make millions from a resource and sell it to the same province using that provinces own resource.If that is acceptable to you then you are seriously flawed in your thinking regarding this issue.To most common sense thinking people it doesn't fly.
  347. Joan Forsey from Toronto, Canada writes: To Brian L. -- Abitibi has not operated the company in Grand Falls, NL since 1905. It was operated by the Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company, known as the A.N.D. Company until 1961 when Price Brothers took over. I don't know when Abitibi got involved -- and I believe Abitibi and Bowater's joined forces only within the last few years.
  348. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Brian L, go on..................and that $10's of millions or even $100's of millions came from those same resources and and the labour input. How much money did Abitibi take from these resources and labour inputs?Or is it the case that in your enlightened fantasy world these $'s came from the Abitibi tooth fairy?

    You miss the point ' smart one', Abitibi are shutting down operations, it was their ideal to leave, Mr Williams is only protecting the interest of his province after this fact. Nfld owes Abitibi nothing.

    When you next have a sober thought perhaps you can amuse us further with our rationale and supporting facts on how Mr Williams capitulated to the Oil companies.

    Midget perhaps? mental midget is you sir.



  349. Percy from NL from Canada writes: Joan Forsey from Toronto

    My guess is that throwing facts at the likes of Brian L. is like trying to attract plastic using a magnet. It ain't gonna work; he doesn't take to it.
  350. Brian L from Canada writes: That the posters above miss my points is not surprising.

    To those who suggest Abitibi has broken a contract, well, the article suggests that they strongly disagree.

    But since you are so proud of your premier, I will sign off.

    Wonder where you will get the investment and jobs from now.
  351. Percy from NL from Canada writes: Aw, Brian L. thinks all legal authority comes from those opinions which are written in an article by the G&M.; Need we say more about him?
  352. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: brian L is nothing more than a hot air ill informed bigot who is likely president of his trailer park's tenants association. He experinces extreme pain and runs from facts and logic. But given the time of year, let wish him a happy holiday season and and with his understannding of economic matters he really should be the treasurer of said association.
  353. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: But Percy Don't you realize that all that is written in a so called national paper is the truth ,the whole truth and nothing but the truth.My good god man.These articles printed tell the story like no other .Brian L and others seem to think that these papers are right and everyone else in wrong.We poor peons no nothing and are null and void of sensible thoughts and clear thinking.When will it ever end.I am afraid not during our lifetimes.
  354. Sidhe Fleury from the ville in BC, writes: way to go williams and the folk of NFNL/LAB!! it's about time some one grabbed a spine...take notes gordy campbell, then start protecting our people and resources against the corporate greed and agreement breaking.
  355. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Thanks for your support here C Roger.It is good to see that Canadians can stand together against perceived wrongs.How is it that some people just don't get the fact that no company should be in control of any provincial resource after they close up shop.Yes they should get some compensation for their hydro plant but thats it.All resources should revert back to the province.They broke their agreement here.Not the province.
  356. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Whatever happens, I hope Newfoundland comes out ok. I have spent a lot of time there and its land and people are God's gift to Canada.
  357. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Steadfast in my opinion it is simple to understand. The G & M always puts forward any issue relating to NFLD and Premier Williams in a negative manner and context. They do this because this is what many of our 'fellow canadians' want to read.

    They perfer us to be the 'goofy newfie' and they are intiminated if not somewhat frightened at the current level of change being led by Premier Williams. In their mind we are not entilled to be equal and put forward our own interest, we should be grateful that they will do this for us.

    Happy Holidays
  358. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Kotter 49, please do not spend too much time in Nfld, we like it the way it is.

    All canadians are god's gift, patroizing Nfld or Nlflder's is not cool either
  359. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Kotter 49, please do not spend too much time in Nfld, we like it the way it is.

    All canadians are god's gift, patroizing Nfld or Nlflder's is not cool either
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    And Merry Christmas to you also. Keep working on the spelling.
  360. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: You (kotter 49, from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada) wrote: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Kotter 49, please do not spend too much time in Nfld, we like it the way it is.

    All canadians are god's gift, patroizing Nfld or Nlflder's is not cool either
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And it's people like me who support the tourist industry that helps keep the place viable. You must still regret 1949, do you?
  361. Greg Atkin from Canada writes: For some laughable right wing journalism read Corcoran's spin in the National Post.
  362. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Knotter 49 you are some piece of work.Its the clueless like you that give us true Canadians real cause for concern for the future of this country.The only thing we regret about 1949 is the taking of valuable resources from us for the so called betterment of Canada which our province suffered for and having to incorporate trash like you into our new country
  363. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Kotter 49, a couple of points,

    You must be the spelling bee champion of Brampton or you have a fetish for it, either way, congratulations.

    And I on behalf of all Nflders we are so grateful for your tourist $s, that should put us over the top. Talk about foolish and self centred.

    Do I regret 1949, hell I wasn't even born then, so why would I regret 1949? or 1959 for that matter. I said 'all canadians'........like you are all over the spelling fetish...........you should move on to reading.
  364. toco- mak from moonbeam, Canada writes: This is the same company cut the crap out of the forest around Kenora and distroyed any relationship with the Natives in the area. The Natives don't agknowledge they gave up rights and title to the land (read Treaty 3) and now they'll never work! This area will never recover because of Abbitibi. This company epitomizes bad cut and run forestry in all of Canada. One other thing, Canadians don't know crap about forestry, they just want the mindless mill jobs.
  365. aging oldtool from Canada writes: I truly hope AbitibiBowater does go through with it's threat to raise NAFTA rules in an effort to take on Premier Danny Williams. No, I don't oppose what Williams has done, but like a lot of other matters of serious concern for average Canadians, getting federal politicians to pay attention to issues they have caused is all but impossible without confrontation. It is my expectation that if it comes down to a fight through NAFTA to decide who owns crown resources such as water and timber, the vast majority of Canadians will be on William's side. Why, because he is laying down the rule for corporations that want to exploit those resuources. Live up to your agreements ( to process forest products) or lose your right of access. It's an issue right across this country. What he is doing is creating a confrontation, a move that can force actions, if not by politicians then by the courts. I admit there is little precendence. Courts tend to shy away from jumping into a political fight, but if it goes beyond political and becomes legal they have no choice. The best example I've seen of this is from first nations in BC, that have learned unless you can get before a court, the bueaucracy and their bosses will ignore, ignore and ignore for as long as they need. In the Indians case it's 150 year of being ignored. Opponents of NAFTA have been trying to challenge the pact, but just like our Indians, they have found their isn't a means of getting taken seriously. When push comes to shove, though, as I've seen over land here in BC, police will be called in and in the case of developers, there will be applications made for cease and desist orders. Sometimes even a tresspassing charge in such an event is enough to bring the courts in. Once there, the issue is out of political hands and must follow case law and, as often as not, delve into the depths of the issue far deeper than policitians of various stripes would like.
  366. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Greg Atkin From Canada.I just read the article in the national post .All I can truly say is wow.Why is it that we must bow to every company who makes use of our resources to the tune of billions.When it wants out we seek to tak back what is rightfully ours but we become the bad boy of society.Again WOW.Cocoran has as much twisted sense of the issue before us as I have ever seen.How anyone with any common sense at all cannot see how this is the right thing to do is beyond me and most everyone here.Any way thanks for the info and should I say somewhat ludicrous read.
  367. Jerry Richards from NL, Canada writes: This was coming sooner or later. Progress has it's ways. A-B wants to play legal games with not just NL; but it's people. A corporate mistake for sure. As for NAFTA; well there's something to be learned there. Most Canadians have already learned how bad a deal this is for all Canadians.
    I don't expect we'll gain much respect from the big corporate entities in the future whether we rightfully win or lose this argument; but there is one thing I'm sure of; I don't care; because at some point in the future we'll be recognized as a real part of Canada. Thats more than we have right now.
    Not that I'm for the thought. 1949 was a mistake to begin with.
  368. Percy from NL from Canada writes: I too just read Corcoran's National Post article. My God, what utter unbalanced garbage this guy is spreading. I'm guessing that when the legal bluff of AbitibiBowater is over he'll go into hiding from the shear embarassment he will have caused himself. Talk about a journalist deperate for attention.
  369. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: 'You folks should actually read the legislation (Bill 75), It clearly states that the Province is taking' 'The timber rights to lands currently held by Abitibi Consolitated'. I right that one's hold means ownership - it doesn't mean a lease.'

    --------------
    J Albert needs to read up on the basics of law. Or even just read the damn agreement before sticking another foot (that's what, 23 now?) into his mouth.

    They held the rights. As in, through a lease. As is explicitly set out in the Pulp and Paper Act of 1905. Did you bother to read it? Or are you just another corporate shill who can't stand a corporation getting shown up for being incompetent, and can't be bothered to look at facts that might contradict your inanities?
  370. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Percy from NL from Canada writes: I too just read Corcoran's National Post article. My God, what utter unbalanced garbage this guy is spreading. I'm guessing that when the legal bluff of AbitibiBowater is over he'll go into hiding from the shear embarassment he will have caused himself. Talk about a journalist deperate for attention.......

    Remember some people will write anything, do anything, they will even commit a crime to get attention. All that matters is that whatever it is they do will bring attention to them. Either going down in history as being 'famous' or 'infamous' is all that matters.

    The National Post is a cesspool of nonsense, it is even worse than the Globe and Mail if that is possible.
  371. Steadfast N.L. from Canada writes: Percy have you ever read such slanted one sided garbage in your lifetime.It is quite clear to me that these people have no knowledge of the facts of this issue and seem to care less.It seems that these clowns would prefer to see Williams hanging from a tree and the company here in this case walk away with the world in the palm of its hand.Hopefully Danny Williams will show the world that the resources that originally belong to the people go back to the people when agreements get broken.Never mind the nonsense about scaring away future companies.It they are legit and good corporate citizens then they will come .Those such As Abitibi we don't want any way
  372. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Blake Johnston from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'People who say lease isn't ownership, need to read up...because it is in fact a form of ownership'

    --------------
    Yes. A FORM of ownership, but not 'ownership' itself. Depending on the lease agreement (did you BOTHER to read it?) it can be rescinded. As has happened here when Abitibi decided to close the mill that is specifically mentioned in said lease agreement. It's a short, readable agreement (unlike modern ones). You and others should read it before spouting off.

    In Canada (as in the UK), the only entity that OWNS land is the CROWN (even First Nations don't technically own their land as far as I know, but I could be wrong. Didn't study that part of the law.). Nobody else. Everyone else LEASES from the Crown, and can have their lease rescinded in exchange for appropriate (as determined by the Crown) compensation. In the absence of a specific lease agreement, it's called 'expropriation'.

    However, Abitibi DID have a lease agreement. One they, in their corporate arrogance, decided they didn't need to abide by anymore. Then, unlike many governments faced with such a situation, the Newfoundland government decided to actually enforce the lease agreement (ie: the contract). Since Abitibi wasn't willing to abide by its obligations in the contract, they don't get any of the rewards either. Contract breached, contract voided, everything reverts to pre-contract status.

    Abitibi:0, Newfoundland:1.
  373. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Percy: yes, I have read bilge that bad before. Invariably in a Canwest publication. People who spew out lies like that (ie: most of Canwest's 'columnists') never admit they were wrong, so no hope there of this person vanishing for any amount of time.

    He's writing for the readership of Canwest propaganda sheets. These people don't care about accuracy or facts, as witnessed by their choice of reading material (admittedly, a lot of Canada doesn't have a choice since Canwest was allowed to monopolise the news in many communities, so shouldn't tar everyone with my wide brush). But he's speaking to a prepared audience and telling them what they want to hear. Even when Newfoundland is shown to have every right to do what they did, these people will continue to hold their opinions, because said opinions are not based in fact or reason, but in prejudice and irrationality.

    The Big Lie unfortunately works quite well, and the followers of the neo-con Big Lie will continue to flock to these kinds of opinions. I wish I knew how to counter that kind of behaviour. Unfortunately, it's like religion. No amount of fact, proof, or evidence will convince these people they are wrong, because they are 'true believers' and therefore cannot be wrong.
  374. xyz Say! from Canada writes: I have a house which I rent out. I ask my tenant, upon accepting my house for rent, to sign a rental agreement that includes certain conditions which I wish the tenant to abide by, one of which is that I require a one month notice before the tenant vacates the property.

    While the tenant is occupying my rental house, it is the tenant's home, but once the tenant gives me the one month vacating notice and the tenant vacates, that house reverts back to me. How can it be any different for AbitibiBowaters with the Grand Falls property?

    It is ludicrous for AbitibiBowaters to think they have title to ownership of a piece of NL 3 times the size of PEI and the Hydroelectric and Wood Fibre resources on it.

    Did, whoever signed the NAFTA AGREEMENT; on behalf of Ottawa know what they were getting the provinces into? It sounds like an Agreement from H ELL!

    In any case the province of NL didn't sign onto the Agreement, it was Ottawa! It is Ottawa's problem!
  375. xyz Say! from Canada writes: By the way, the tenant I just told you about in my above post, is it possible NAFTA gives me the same right to collect rent from that tenant after he has vacated?
  376. Marvist Clank from Canada writes: I am no fan of Danny Williams but I am less a fan of a Southern Arrogant Corporation with remnants of the Olympia and York machine that milked the Paper Industry in Canada and then abandoned it.

    To be fair to Danny he will treat Quebec with just as much respect when their contract is over. He is simply applying the rules to benefit Newfoundland and not South Carolina. The NAFTA thing is a ruse. Like typical Southerner's they can't keep their word and can't be trusted. Even a Southerner will tell you that. In the world of 'Player Player' Danny is smackin' 'em down. Good on 'im.
  377. M Liggins from hyderabad, Canada writes: Warron yu from Canada writes:
    'Wish GM, Ford and Crysler could sell to Asian markets yet? '
    They already do; check out the auto special report section in Dec. 13 economist.

    F B from Canada writes: 'nafta is a law.'
    Actually, it's an agreement which was implemented through the enabling legislation which received royal assent June 23, 1993. The law or act was the North American Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act, 1993, c. 44
  378. kotter 49 from Canada writes: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Kotter 49, a couple of points, You must be the spelling bee champion of Brampton or you have a fetish for it, either way, congratulations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry I hurt your feelings. I just find that contributors who can't take the extra 30 seconds to proof read their comments before the poke the enter button usually put the same effort into their thinking. They also tend to think that putting their comments into full caps somehow validates their opinions. Curiously you seem to have improved your spelling and structure since my first comment. Keep practicing and you might achieve mediocre literacy. Bye for now and Merry Christmas.
  379. Jim Z from Canada writes: Danny Williams is making the right decision. Abitibi sold their land near Thunder Bay to an American company. The Liberal government in Ontario stood by and let it happen. These were Canadian National resources and should have been retained for Canadians. They should have been negoiated by the Ontario government at a fair price and failing that been expropriated.
  380. Mtl Guy from Canada writes: Wow. 386 comments from people who know nothing about business and law. The globe editors must be so proud of their readership profile.
  381. muriel martin from Canada writes: Williams is such a nut bar. We made huge mistake taking Newfoundland out of the woods in the first place. We never fixed this huge mistake and like all unrepaired mistakes they always come to bite in the bum. We now look like Chavez. Go get em Abitibi.
  382. Fifty cal from Austin Texas, United States writes: You got anything up there worth enough to PAY for the lawsuit that the INTERNATIONAL COURT OF LAW is going to whack you canucks with for confiscating legally owned property? Is there any gold or oil on this land that we can take to pay for your chavez like action?Thank god for NAFTA. Keeps you kanuck criminals from stealing our property.
  383. Ground Working from Canada writes: Williams is taking a direct say in the hiring of a university president; he's huffing and puffing about who people should vote for in federal elections; he's lowered the Canadian flag at the provincial legislature; and now he's seizing company assets because they made a politically unpopular business decision. I even saw a unscientific newspaper poll in Newfoundland where the majority wanted to separate from Canada!

    His province has 2/3rds the population of New Brunswick, half the population of Calgary, and less than 1/10th the population of the GTA.

    Small populations beget Mickey Mouse politics. Danny Williams is all about Mickey Mouse politics. I'm a big believer in letting provinces sink or swim on their own. But it's no small wonder why this province is still losing its population, despite its economic turnaround. All the better for us in the rest of the country.
  384. Carl Hansen from Canada writes: NAFTA sucks. Danny for PM.
  385. Tango Zulu from Canada writes: Danny Williams is doing what all politicians should be doing: representing the interests of the people they were elected to represent. Too many, almost all politicians are more concerned about representing foreign owned corporations.

    Abilibiblowhard's letter is whiney posturing anyway. This issue is about contractual law, not trade law.
  386. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: Ground Working from Canada writes: 'Williams is taking a direct say in the hiring of a university president; he's huffing and puffing about who people should vote for in federal elections; he's lowered the Canadian flag at the provincial legislature; and now he's seizing company assets because they made a politically unpopular business decision. ...'

    Which assets of A-B did Danny seize, Ground? Their only assets were the mills (which he isn't touching) and the power generating stations (which he is buying from them).

    So, I'll ask you again - which assets of A-B are Danny seizing?
  387. Ground Working from Canada writes: 'Resource rights and hydro assets.'

    Resource rights are assets, because contracts with governments in Canada are considered so secure--and are so enforceable legally--that companies can use them as leverage to borrow money. That might change for Newfoundland. Short term politics vs. long term uncertainty. But like I said: I don't care. There are bigger things to worry about than the sporadic 'mayor' of a small city--which is essentially what the premier of Newfounland is.
  388. Compos Mentis from in the Darwinian, Wild West..., Canada writes: Ground, I think you are confusing 'security in raising capital' with actual ownership of assets. Banks like to see secure long term government agreements in place when lending money to resource companies. A-B did have that with N&L.; But once they shut down the mill, they effectively ended the agreement. The water and timber lease was tied directly to A-B operating a mill in N&L.; Not simply owning - operating.

    Resource rights and hydro assets (e.g. access to waterways) are owned by the province. They are never 'sold'; they are 'lent', or in this case, leased, as long as the 'leasee' (? - not sure if that is a real word) fulfills certain conditions of their agreement.

    A-B's problem is that they have leased these assets for so long (since 1905), they have come to think that they own them! They don't. The people of N&L; do.

    I can totally understand why A-B would try for this asset grab - without these leases, their mills are worthless (i.e. without access to self-owned power and timber, it is too expensive).

    But Danny has not taken any assets from A-B. I cannot fathom how you can come to such a conclusion?
  389. dm lk from Canada writes: Although Williams may think he is being Newfoundland's saviour, this move will put a chill in the thoughts of companies considering investing in the province.

    May bring short political gain but long economic pain which is a familiar theme in Newfoundland.
  390. Danny Briard from Saint Lambert, Canada writes: We definitely need more people like Danny Wiliams to stand up and fight for our people, as a maritimer from northern New Brunswick i feel what the people of Newfoundland sre going through.
  391. What's Next? from Canada writes: Investing. Is that what this is called. Bowater exploits. Far cry from investing.
  392. What's Next? from Canada writes: This company has taken advantage of Canada since th 90's.
    They are heartless, cruel and don't give a damn about the communties they devestate. Stick it to them Mr Williams
    D.W. for P.M.
    We need a leader like this in Ottawa.
  393. peter jones from Canada writes: oh yes. these companies are all concerned about 'private property' untill they want a bail out from the tax payer.
  394. xyz Say! from Canada writes: dm lk from Canada writes: Although Williams may think he is being Newfoundland's saviour, this move will put a chill in the thoughts of companies considering investing in the province....

    This move will not put a chill in the thoughts of companies considering investing in our province - Big Business will move anywhere they can make a dollar, even to Stans of Central Asia, where the War Lords reign supreme. They have been investing there for years doing business and they are in Africa as well where their workers are kidnapped on a monthly basis.

    We know what is going on in the World, it appears you don't!
  395. dm lk from Canada writes: I am not saying that Williams doesn't have the right to do what he is doing. But there are ramifications to what he is doing.
  396. peter jones from Canada writes: yup why not D W for PM.. I like his style. you'd never catch SH doing something as ballsie as this.
  397. North of the Border from Canada writes: I'm not even going to bother going through all the posts in here since they amount to the following: Newfoundland will not get any outside investment now? Geez I wonder what kind of investment they were supposed to get. The same kind that they've got up until now? Whereby raw resources are extracted and shipped out? Yeah they've got it good. What are these companies going to do to 'not invest' now? Tunnel under ground to keep the resources? What a joke. Same investment as Voisey Bay or Churchill Falls? If so, I'm sure that 'investment' or lack of will be welcomed by NLers. These big companies think they can bulldoze everyone in their way and Williams is not only standing up to them but has, in many cases, called them bluff. I believe many of you fail to recognize what Williams was before entering politics. I'm sure he'll seek the legal advice of globe and mail readers. 'dm lk from Canada writes: I am not saying that Williams doesn't have the right to do what he is doing. But there are ramifications to what he is doing.' What are they? Seriously. Up until now NL has been exploited. Just about every single venture to date has been in lopsided favour of the companies doing 'business' in NL. Hate to tell you but Abitibi has already closed one plant in NL and now they plan on doing the same to a second (and last I believe). If the ex-wife takes everything before you get back from work would you keep sending her x-mas gifts? Maybe Williams should take notes from Harper then? Let's see: another $4 billion after saying no, no, no? lol. That'll teach em eh? There are strings attached though? So let's see. Are those same sort of strings similar to those in the agreement with NL? Maybe when the auto industry starts pulling out after the $4 billion is gone and has no plans on paying it back we should still feel and warm and fuzzy towards them? We wouldn't want to discourage foreign investment would we? Just like we rolled over for the Americans when it came to softwood.
  398. xyz Say! from Canada writes:
    I just hope my province takes care in the future and stays away from the Big Business prostitutes that were operating in yesterday's world, I say yesterday because they are all winding down into bankruptcy now because of the corruption which they allowed to be practised within their midst. Due diligence will need to be followed before dealing with anyone.

    There will be a new day dawning soon, because the Depression which is working through the global economic system will necessitate that new dawn. When things are being restructured, for that new dawn, let us hope that the industries which will emerge will have a conscience built into them and they will practise with honesty. We can do without the corruption that has gone on over the past 30 plus years in the business environment.

    AbitibiBowaters ran an 103 year old business into the ground, which was approaching 100 years before it took it over.
  399. Kevin Guest from St. John's, Canada writes: Being a Newfoundlander myself, I feel Premier Danny Williams is once again doing the right thing. Mr. Williams is standing up for the people of the province, and is taking back what is rightfully ours. If the company cannot provide Newfoundlanders with jobs why should they still have claims to our timber, and energy. Remember the timber claims is not covering two or three acres, its land 3 times the size of P.E.I. In the 2003 election of Mr. Williams, his motto was 'No More Giveaways' unlike previous government administrations. Premier Willaims today is sticking to his word. A Rhodes Scholar, Prominent Newfoundland Laywer, self made millionaire, Mr. Williams is well aware of the consequences of what he is doing, with other prominent lawyers in his Progessive Conservative party, such as Finance Minister Jerome Kennedy. If good legal advice is to come from anyone, two of these men are the best lawyers in this province to get it from. Both men are working with Newfoundlands best interest in mind.
  400. C Osborn from Canada writes: Fifty cal from Austin, US wrote 'You got anything up there worth enough to pay fot the lawsuit that the International Court of Law is going to whack you canucks with for confiscating legally owned property... blah blah blah blah blah...thank god for NAFTA, Keep you canucks criminals from stealing cour property.

    Okay everyone, Fifty cal is American and deserves some respect. All other nationalities slowly move toward the door. Don't panic. Keep smiling and nodding in agreement with him/her as you move slowly toward the entrance to this site. I think he's got a gun!
  401. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Fifty cal from Austin Texas: Isn't that the state where Wako is located?

    Yes Fifty cal, we have far more here than we ever get credit fot. Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's Eastern Bookend Province, a territory it dreamt of for 80 years before it got us into the fold, either by hook or by crook.

    Newfoundland and Labrador brought to Canada a 17,000 kilometers frontage on the Atlantic Ocean, NL is situated half way between Europe and the Center of North America, it has many natural resources, some of which are coveted Hydroelectric Energy, one of the largest fish Nurseries in the World called the Grand Banks of Newfoundland, Minerals of all types, including the largest Nickel find in the World and OIL.

    The U.S. was stationed here during the Second World War to protect North America, matter of fact your country had FOUR large Military bases on our soil up to the 1970s.

    I always heard that Americans were very narrow minded, I really believe that to be true.
  402. peter jones from Canada writes: hey,, why not just arrest any Atibib employees who set foot on the island to try and get 'their stuff' back.. Charge them with conspiracy and attempted larceny. Maybe that Illinois governor would bail them out or sell them a US senate seat or something.

    Atibibi are just like the Somalian pirates..time to face 'em down....
  403. xyz Say! from Canada writes: If there is anyone out there who is wondering how Newfoundlanders and Labradorians felt about joining Canada, you can go to the CBC Radio site below and listen to the the show of Dec. 11 of this year, the 60th year since the Terms of Union were signed and hear for yourself. Just follow the details below.

    http://www.cbc.ca/onthego/

    Thursday December 11, 2008
    December 11th was an auspicious day in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador, the 60th anniversary of the signing of the Terms of Union with Canada. Ted spoke about those days with retired St. John's lawyer, James Halley. Their conversation began with a short excerpt from the signing ceremony in Ottawa, on December 11, 1948:
    Listen to this audio feature (16:01)
  404. William E. Demers from Toronto, Canada writes: Williams is an idiot. He needs to be turfed.
  405. Iain's Opinion from Canada writes:
    I think the depreciated value as shown on the last tax form would be fair compensation.
  406. Marvist Clank from Alberta, Canada writes: Although I usually don't give a damn about what somebody who would bother to live in Texas has to say. How is it legal to sell something that is leased when you didn't maintain the conditions of said lease. I know these 'old' arrangements can be full of holes and difficult to bring forward into our 'modern' context but if you look at how Americans treat 'federal lands' for forestry use what Danny is doing is not 'extraordinary'.

    But hell, what do Americans know. Like President Jackson, ignore the Supreme Court and just exterminate a whole 'property based culture' so a bunch of bums can steal it while you ship people of a more advanced culture than you off to Oklahoma.

    Sorry, I just have a thing about Texas ....

    My 'brother in law' liked it there.
  407. Bitumen Queen from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    Sorry, but this time after all the industry & manufacturing that has made money for the US & their Corportacracy through NAFTA & Global free trade, it's about time we took control of what we own & start all over again...........Go Danny Go......>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  408. Brian Dell from Hong Kong writes: To all the people who believe that politicians like Danny Chavez are serving the interests of 'Canadians', pay attention to how politicians operate for a while and you'll learn that politicians serve the interests of politicians.

    The govt expropriating private property doesn't give ME anything. It gives the govt something and the govt is not me. And it's NOT YOU EITHER! Stop deluding yourselves. God forbid any of you start businesses yourselves or you might be next on the hit list.

    This is clearly government stealing since the Danny government has evidently claimed the right to unilaterally determine compensation (which is apparently none) for the seized private assets. If there was a truly a breach of contract on Abitibi's part it would be settled by reference to fair market value, not Danny's opinion of what Abitibi should get.

    A populist premier takes the boots to business, and a company who is technically even foreign, and the mob cheers because they've scapegoated business and foreigners as the cause of all their problems. Right out of the Chavez playbook.
  409. walter talacko from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'It's about time that somebody have some balls,maybe our federal leaders including PM take a cue!
  410. The Angry Left from Canada writes: Abitibi is getting exactly what they deserve, what they put in, which is a big fat NOTHING! Abitibi was given the rights to log and water rights in exchange for operating a plant. They are no longer operating a plant, therefore no more timber or water rights. Those water and timber rights have always belonged to the government, not Abitibi Bowater. Abitibi Bowater is entitled to nothing. They are certainly not entitled to sell off the water and timber rights, which they do not own, to the highest bidder. That right belongs to the province. If Abitibi Bowater's operation is no longer viable thanks to the loss of water and timber rights, too bad for them. They should have thought of that before they shut down their plant and laid off all their workers. Maybe the province can find someone who will employ the workers of Grand-Falls-Windsor who will then help Abitibi Bowater by taking their plant off their hands at a good price, much less than they would have gotten for it if they hadn't been so stupid as to give up the sweet deal they had with the province and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. And yes, the government does represent the people. If you want to be successful in business, understand the agreements you enter into and honor your side of the bargain, or end up out in the cold and on your a--, just like Abiti-Bowater!
  411. johhny taxi from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'This notion that private sector can do no wrong,'and we embrace wholeheartedly unbridled capitalism,'make you think' of all the scams, rip offs, and corrupted politicians!Who got us in this economic crisis!'Could it be private sector? 'And the best system in the world?(Capitalism)?
  412. Paul Bowler from Canberra, Australia writes: Here in the Australian Capital Territory (of which Canberra is part), all land is the subject of Crown leasehold. Although I like to think that I 'own' my house (freehold-style', all I own is the lease to the block of land on which the house is built. This lease was first granted in about 1971, for a period of 99 years. At the expiry of the 99th year, the Crown has the right to resume the land and all improvements thereon (ie the house), without paying 1 red cent!! If the 1905 Nfld Crown lease ( and it was the British Crown at the time!) was written in similar terms, then perhaps Mr Williams does not even have to pay for the mill nor the power station! Anyway, as the ols saying goes 'Use it or lose it!'. Guess A/B will lose it, eh?
  413. The Angry Left from Canada writes: Paul Bowler from Canberra, you are correct. In Canada we do own title to our land, but that is not in keeping with our tradition, which is British. People in Britain don't own their land. Most of the land here is crown land, ie-owned by the state. A-B held water and timber rights to crown land. Those rights had conditions. They abdicated their end of the bargain, therefore lose their rights. Period. Most people are clueless when it comes to the giveaways that governments give to corporations like Abitibi-Bowater.
  414. Vote for your country from Canada writes: Leased rights do not mean ownership. End of story. Merry Christmas Mr. Willams, and thank you.
  415. Brian Dell from Hong Kong writes: If it is Abitibi and not Danny that is breach here, then why isn't Danny & Co suing under existing law?

    It is obvious that Danny is CREATING law to take what he wants. Why is a new bill necessary if Danny is already empowered to seize this asset?

    He's acting like a tinpot dictator and most people here are cheering him on because they think the rule of law just serves the interests of corporations.
  416. R L from Canada writes: The rule of law DOES serve the interests or the corporations! (ie, they've been getting by with NO rule of law forever, and now we're paying for it)
  417. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Brian Dell from Hong Kong:

    You are not suggesting, are you, that any law, I do not care which law would allow a company after it has decided it doesn't want to operate any longer, can take with it a piece of terriotry 3 times the size of Prince Edward Island and the resources on it which, in one case, Hydroelectric Energy is a license to print money?

    Brian - do you think a company should have that type of power? For Goodness sake, some jurisdictions in some Provinces and States, after this Great Depression we are now suffering is over, will have nothing left of its territory, especially thos in the Manufacturing belts of the U.S. and Canada?

    I would like your answer.
  418. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: William E. Demers from Toronto, Canada writes: Williams is an idiot. He needs to be turfed.

    Billy boy, Williams is a rhodes scholar, an accomplished lawyer, a self made multi millionaire and an elected premier.

    While we are on the topic of 'idiots', how do you compare to this?

    Surely you meant to say I am the idiot for making this statement?
  419. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: We've watched foreign controlled companies have too long overly dictated how we exploit our resources and other aspects of the economy. For example, a USA company suing us for banning a dangerous additive to gasoline because they claimed it prejudiced their ability to compete under NAFTA, in the USA where laws were less demanding they didn't have that. When Canada was negotiating with the USA on the Softwood Lumber dispute, our federal politicians said that they had to get the support of our lumber industry, where most large players were American owned. Three cheers for Danny Williams. If Canadians want to develop/ exploit a Canadian resource, we should be able to ensure that we are not stopped by any company in Canada or the USA. To borrow a USA text ' We the people..' not vested interests ultimately own Canada, and where this is questionable we should make it so.
  420. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: muriel martin from Canada writes: Williams is such a nut bar. We made huge mistake taking Newfoundland out of the woods in the first place. We never fixed this huge mistake and like all unrepaired mistakes they always come to bite in the bum. We now look like Chavez. Go get em Abitibi.

    Muriel, very interesting - admitly not very enlightening - but you have to admit in this instance isn't Williams taking Abitibi 'out of the woods'? Other than usuing childish references to nut bar and Chavez, please tell us how you would 'fixed this huge mistate'. A diet of nut bars?.........adopting spanish/latin names or bum biting?
  421. Michael Black from Canada writes: 'Zarny YYC from Canada writes: It will be funny when Newfoundland finds itself in a position where no companies will invest capital in the Providence'

    Yeah that would be hilarious. Are you Canadian or what??? We're all in this together people, I can't stand this regional infighting. Stupid.
  422. Ron McKee from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: Major corporations have been taking our property and tax concessions etc in exchange for development and employment in our country for years, they need to be held accountable. They were GIVEN the property to use for a reason. You didn't pay directly for it, you don't own it. They get to use it under the terms of the agreement period.
    KUDO's to Danny Boy,
  423. J Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: I agree with Michael Black.

    The damage being done by Williams is Canada wide. Companies - foreign and domestics - will weight it riskier to enter into agreements with governments. Fewer will respnd to RFP.

    This is already happenning in Toronto - there were only one bid from a major company for one of the largest transit equipment contracts in the country's history! Fewer bids mean that our governments (and us) will pay more and get less - and lower quality for our tax dollars.
  424. Percy from NL from Canada writes: This comes down to a very scary position being taken by some Canadians. Apparently, because of their right-wing ideology, they have no problem with the idea that a multi-national company leave a jurisdiction and take ownship of Canadian land, water, and forest resources with them. This in spite of the fact they have violated the terms of a leasing contract. In other words these Canadians are saying that our country, with its huge land mass, is available for the taking. I'm sorry, but this Canadian believes that our land, water, and forest resources belong to the people of this country, and not those who try to steal it through termination of leasing contracts. A NL land mass more than three times the size of PEI is not for sale by AbitibiBowater on the world market. They never owned it, and they will never own it. The operators of the pulp and paper industry in NL have made a tidy profit for themselves over the last 100 years. They have used that profit to build more modern and competitive mills elsewhere, not in NL. And yes, NL has benefited through jobs and taxes. Both parties have benefited, to suggest otherwise would be a lie. But to suggest that a multi-national company now owns a huge chunk of our province through the termination of a lease is nothing short of a sick ideology which will not fly in this province.
  425. daniel Belland from Pembroke, Canada writes: Danny Williams is acting like Hugo Chavez, this is Canada not Venezuela.
  426. peter jones from Canada writes: Oh come on now , everyone knows that Atibibi will just get Obama to send in the US Marine Corps to bring Democracy to Newfoundland.

    then they will send in some Wall Street bankers to teach them how to run their finances..

    That governor from Illinois will be sent to Newf to teach them how to be completely corrupt and still think you can sue anyone who tries to say otherwise ( did he take lessons from Harper BTW)
  427. Percy from NL from Canada writes:
    daniel Belland from Pembroke, Canada is a modern day Senator Joseph McCarthy.

    Sorry but one silly statement deserves another sometimes.
  428. peter jones from Canada writes: Maybe a few Hugo Chavez types would be good for Canada,,,bring us some balance so that we are not always being so obliging to 'Uncle Sam'..
    Even the Brits are standing up to him these days...
  429. What's Next? from Canada writes: They have used that profit to build more modern and competitive mills elsewhere, not in NL.

    You can take that to the bank. Calhoun, Cossa Pines. 100's of millions spent down there.
    This is what Bowater will contimue to do. Nothing or very little spent here.
    Is this the type of multinationals we want here in Canada?
    This is their mandate.
    Just look at N.W.Ont. Go Bowater. We are better off with no investement.
    They are pirates. Plain and simple.
  430. Kevin Cochrane from Virden,MB, Canada writes: I have one wish, well two actually, one would be a Prime Minister that actually leads this country to it's capabilities and two, to see the end of the corporation as we now know it. Maybe Danny Williams will be the start of something good.
  431. What's Next? from Canada writes: He leads by example. Danny Williams is 'The Peoples Premier'
    Would love to see him run for P.M.
  432. Percy from NL from Canada writes: Maybe other jurisdictions need to take a closer look at AbitibiBowater's operations and intentions in their backyards. They are looking for a corporate welfare land-grab here in NL, and they are simply out of luck. We helped the pulp and paper industry over the past 100 years with their profits and we helped them build more modern and competitive mills elsewhere. We owe them nothing.

    There is a huge difference between encouraging good business and encouraging all business. Many of those with extreme right-wing ideology cannot bring themselves to understand that difference. In the case of NL, good businesses only need apply.
  433. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Albert from Toronto, Canada writes: I agree with Michael Black. The damage being done by Williams is Canada wide. Companies - foreign and domestics - will weight it riskier to enter into agreements with governments. Fewer will respnd to RFP. This is already happenning in Toronto ... Your statement above shows how narrow minded and low on knowledge you are. The false pseudo economy which was created by NAFTA and other agreements around the world is what is causing this Depression. And by the way Newfoundland and Labrador didn't enjoy any of the growth that Toronto enjoyed over the past 40 years, because NL's natural and human resources all went to Toronto to build their economy. Ontario has a thousand or more skyscrapers from that growth, Newfoundland and Labrador has one 10 story building, despite it huge natural resource base and its prime location. Emphasis was placed on taking Newfoundland and Labrador's natural and resources over the past 40 year period and fashioning pseudo economies in places like Toronto. Yes narrow minded, low on knowledge Mr. Albert, Ontario is one of the places which has brought on this Depression. Just imagine Trillions of dollars worth of growth has taken place there in infrastructure over the past 40 years, and now the Federal Government has to try invigorate those same financial institutions and manufacturing industries with an infusion of Billions more of Federal tax dollars, which are my province's tax dollars, as well, again, to help maintain those structures, for which I do not see one piece of infrastructure around me here in Newfoundland and Labrador that was created from those dollars or our natural and human resources.
  434. David Stevens from LEGAL FACTS, Canada writes: AbitibiBowater doesn't have a leg to stand on.

    Expropriation known, as Eminent Domain in the US, is the states legal right to forcefully purchase private property. The private entity is paid. The US government can and does do this. So does Canada. If someone's farm is where they want to build an Airport (see Mirabel) the government may seize the land as long as it pays for it.

    In this case Newfoundland will pay for it and a judge will decide if further restitution is warranted.

    And regarding the 'democratic' comments. Since when is business and finance 'democratic'? The Corporation is modelled after the Military. NOT democratic in the least.

    And such a decision in favour of AB would be putting into question the idea of state sovereignty. If this interferes with Canadian Constitutional law then Canadian courts might not have the choice, but to declare NAFTA invalid... A Big Can of Worms.

    ALSO Abitibowater doesn't have the cash to contest this. They are nearly bankrupt. They were counting on selling off their Newfoundland assets to keep the company afloat...

    And, and, and... Abitibibowater will be gone before this ever sees a judge.
  435. David Stevens from LEGAL FACTS, Canada writes: UNITED STATES (from Wikipedia)
    -------------------------------
    The power of governments to take private real or personal property has always existed in the United States, being a part of the common law inherited from England. This power reposes in the legislative branch of the government and may not be exercised unless the legislature has authorized its use by statutes that specify who may use it and for what purposes.

    The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1791, which reads, '...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation'. The U.S. Supreme Court has consistently upheld the rights of states to make their own definitions of public use.

    AUSTRALIA (from Wikipedia)
    -------------------------------
    In Australia, section 51, subsection xxxi of the Constitution permits the Commonwealth (federal government) to make laws with respect to 'the acquisition of property on just terms from any State or person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has power to make laws.'

    CANADA (from Wikipedia)
    -------------------------------
    In Canada expropriation is governed by federal or provincial statutes. Under these statutory regimes public authorities have the right to acquire private property for public purposes, so long as the acquisition is approved by the appropriate government body. Once property is taken, an owner is entitled to 'be made whole' by compensation for: the market value of the expropriated property, injurious affection to the remainder of the property (if any), disturbance damages, business loss and special difficulty relocating. Owners can advance claims for compensation above that initially provided by the expropriating authority by bringing a claim before the court or an administrative body appointed by the governing legislation.
  436. What's Next? from Canada writes: There is a mill in Thunder Bay. Did well for 75 years. We were all working, happy and content with our lives. Getting rich in the possess? Not at all. Just comfortable. We under went a 800 million dollar expansion in the early 90's. Our way of preparing for a leaner competitive market. Just like we are all facing today. Then Bowater moved over in on a hostile takeover. And have been downsizing our work force in our 'one horse town' ever since. That's all we had left. There was only a few mills to sustain 125k people. Over the past 10 years Bowater took millions and millions and invested down in the states. Then we started seeing our orders go south as well. Now we have nothing left. And they will also pull out of N.W.Ont. in the next few years if not sooner. THEY ARE EVIL. No other way to describe it. Is this the type of business Canadians want?
    Danny Williams is an inspiration to us out here in N.W.Ont.
    If only we had a premier like him. Simply a dream out here.
    Eh! DALTON!
    Where have you been?
  437. Gord Cee from Canada writes: I have no idea who's right in this specific instance however I view unions negatively and Williams as a not very bright blowhard, arrogant and in the long term detrimental to his province. This being the case I'm betting the company is right and I wish them well
  438. David Simon from Canada writes: So what is Danny going to do with timber and power for a closed mill?

    Does anybody in NF know?
  439. r b from Calgary, Canada writes: You people are simply outrageously funny.

    Newfoundland has a 13.7% unemployment rate, it actually INCREASED after Danny boy 'put the boots to' the oil companies, and now you're cheerleading his latest socialist escapade. 13.7%! in any other province people would be out with pitchforks and burning effigies of Danny boy, but on the rock, he is a hero. Too funny.

    Jesse Wingnut says we need Danny boy out west as well - yes, the 3.5% unemployment rate in Alberta could use some of his loving touch. Now it is true that we're probably headed to 7-8% unemployment in Alberta, perhaps if we pray very hard we can get to 13.7% as well.

    Really, really funny.

    Please, please keep the humor posts rolling, I can't leave for Palm Springs until after New Year and this 30 below zero Global Warming snap we're experiencing out west is dragging me down.
  440. Rob r from Fredericton, Canada writes: Williams plays hard ball and usually knows what he is doing...NFLD in surplus and the feds running scared. IF this is an issue of crown leases then it should be a no brainer. AB can't expect to sell access to wood it does not own and sell power to NFLDers when they don't own the rights to the water! Both rights apparently provided on condition of running the mill. AB probably expected to generate revenue from both assets to stave of bankruptcy and now they're fubarred...give them fair market value for the power assets and send them on there way.
  441. The Bubble from Canada writes: Anne Johnston, while you call Newfoundlanders dumb, your provincial government under Ed Stalemate gives all the oil and the oil profits to the Americans, talk about dumb.
  442. Percy from NL from Canada writes:

    Anne Johnston from Edmonton, Canada

    Your post coming from a person whose former Premier picked fights with drunk street people (likely trying to steal they liquor) is hilarious.
  443. Kim Morton from Canada writes: It must be a real shock to the managers of Foreign owned multi nationals to run into a Canadian politician with some balls. After a century and a half of governments of all stripes rolling over this is clearly a new experience for them. Fact: the developed world needs our resources and we now have a leader who is no longer willing to give them away for a few trinkets. Way to go Danny.
  444. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Anne Johnston from Edmonton, Canada writes: I see the yahoos from Ontario, on here, rahing Danny Chavez. But have they not seen the fact that the auto industry is also American based, and they have provided jobs for Canadians for years. I don't see these jerks saying kick the bums out. Believe me, I would not set up a business in Nfld, as long as 'Danny' is the dictator there. The Newfies are the dumbest people on earth, They believed in Joey Smallwood, now Danny????

    Annie, you left out the bigoted red necks from Alberta. Danny really frightens you doesn't he? Bigots like you have a problem with him?

    By the way 'Newfoundlanders' were 'dumb' enough to put the boots to Harper and his gang.

    I guesss that Newfoundland will be destined for total economic diaster now that you won't set up a business there What a piece of work.

    While on the topic of political leadership, shall we go to Ralphie and others or leave that for another time.

  445. What's Next? from Canada writes: r b from Calgary
    Anne Johnston from Edmonton

    At least Williams don't bend over backwards to kiss yankee a$$.
  446. Gord Cee from Canada writes: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes ' I guess Newfoundland will be destined for total economic disaster'

    You're absolutely right C. Rogers and I must say you're very insightful. Course they have been an economic disaster for years and years and years
  447. xyz Say! from Canada writes: daniel Belland from Pembroke, Canada writes: Danny Williams is acting like Hugo Chavez, this is Canada not Venezuela.......

    Sir, it is you who has it wrong. How can a Corporation like AbitibiBowaters, which took over a business that was in the Town of Grand Falls, NL for the best part of 100 years, then decide to abandon the business model, lay of 700 workers, leave town, and assume that they can take the lucrative profits to support operations in some other part of North America from the resources of that piece of Newfoundland and Labrador territory with them, a territory which is 3 times the size of P.E.I.

    give your head a good shake! It is you, Sir, who is acting like Hugo Chavez, not Premier Williams.
  448. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Gord Cee from Canada writes: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes ' I guess Newfoundland will be destined for total economic disaster'

    You're absolutely right C. Rogers and I must say you're very insightful. Course they have been an economic disaster for years and years and years

    And to think Newfounland had the opportunity to correct this if Annie would only start a business there.

    You Harperites are a laugh

  449. Chris S. from Kitchener-Waterloo, Canada writes: Danny Williams is a man of the people.
  450. Gord Cee from Canada writes: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes ' You Harperites are a laugh'

    I may be missing something here Mr or Mrs Rogers but what has all this got to do with Harper or have you just got your shorts, or panties, tied up in ideology and are getting away from the topic at hand?
  451. S Guy from Canada writes:
    This has many impassioned voices.

    While politically brillant and making great headlines today, this will cost NFLD in the long run. Why would any business allocate capital to a jurisdiction that confisicates assets?

    I'm not saying what Williams did was right or wrong or whether its legal or illegal. That's up to Newfoundlanders and the courts to decide. The issues of right/wrong and legal/iilegal are red herrings.

    The real issue is the message it sends to business capital...its clear and irrefutable...NFLD will never know how much capital has been directed away.

    Good luck to NFLD.
  452. L. Eisely from Canada writes: Why aren't people contributing (a generous qualifier) to this hockey panel able to crunch basic financials numbers and see that this company is doomed.
    Let's take a slow walk : approximately
    11 billions in assets,,
    8-9 billions in debts,
    earn. per share minus 20$,
    52,400000 millions shares at 0.53 cents, for approx. 30 millions$,

    Don't you think that they can't even afford to sue NL?

    More probably another dire takeover, liquidation or 'managed bankruptcy' case.

    NL is part of a global trend in that govt. are retaking control of basic national resources, first oil, then...minerals, water, forestry...where mutinational companies will have no choice but to keep investing in these countries...or someone else will. That is why US and Cdn. mutlinationals are busy investing in many less secure countries than Canada. in Africa, Asia...

    Get real, GB hockey panel commentators !
  453. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: Guy from Canada writes:
    This has many impassioned voices.

    While politically brillant and making great headlines today, this will cost NFLD in the long run. Why would any business allocate capital to a jurisdiction that confisicates assets?

    Simple...........the demand for natural resources. An example of this was in the fact the Oil Companies came back and settled on Williams's terms, much to the envy of Alberta.
  454. Green Canada from Edmonton, Canada writes: if the company lived up to their end fo the agreement it would be no problem...so no problem...I guess the power station could be left with Abitibi but the province owns the water so any money being created by the action of the water goes to the province.

    alternatively, the company can retain the revenue stream by paying all the mill workers in perpetuity. anything else is simply a windfall for the company. (so not surprising they are trying to spin it as they are.
  455. censured ... from Canada writes: this is where grandstanding has a price.
  456. Robert Bennett from Mississauga, ON, Canada writes: The greatest danger that Danny Williams faces in this action against the Abitibi Group is that he will be stabbed in the back by the CCP traitors now in control in Ottawa. I am afraid that Harpo will not show any support for an elected leader that shows any intestinal fortitude, which is a quality that Harpo does not own. GO DANNY GO!!!
  457. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    Why not hire David Emerson to negoitiate a deal that will see half of the assets given away ??

    Gord gee NAFTA is a federal jurisdiction and that's why harer will get a say in this evenutally - if it goes that far.

    I'd prepare for a sell out by stevie if it goes that far.

    Plus he'll figure a way to get three or four extra votes out of the loss to NFLD
  458. John Rowat from Austria writes: The aftermath of this action is going to be the interesting part. Canadians will find out how much sovereignty they have over resources on their territory ... under present arrangements. If they don't like the answer, will Canadians change the arrangements?
  459. C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes: censured ... from Canada writes: this is where grandstanding has a price.

    And?............what is that price?
  460. bob saunders from Belleville, ON, Canada writes: Robert Bennett from Mississauga, ON, Canada writes: The greatest danger that Danny Williams faces in this action against the Abitibi Group is that he will be stabbed in the back by the CCP traitors now in control in Ottawa. I am afraid that Harpo will not show any support for an elected leader that shows any intestinal fortitude, which is a quality that Harpo does not own--------------- Perhaps Harper will come out with an Anyone but Danny campaign, but I doubt it, Harper will support Williams if he is with his rights, unlike Williams Harpo is not as petulant. Remember Danny's lets bygone be bygones after the election.
  461. Gord Cee from Canada writes: C Rogers from Toronto, Canada writes " only a Harperite or a bigot would make that statement"

    So I'm not only a Harperite but maybe even a bigot? Although I do enjoy getting under your thin skin I must leave this enjoyable subject and do some errands. I will however let my negative appraisal of Williams stand as I never did say he was an "uneducated" dullard. Best regards Gord Cee
  462. Farm Boy from The Burbs, Canada writes: For once, something interesting is happening in Canada, that could have very far-reaching consequences. The courts will eventually decide the issue but watching the proceedings is going to be fascinating. In the end this has the potential to clarify a lot of issues, one way or another. I wish NL the best of luck in their fight.
  463. Joan Forsey from Toronto, Canada writes: If AbitibiBowater is "American-based," as so many posters say, why does it have its head office in Montreal?
  464. Can't believe it from Canada writes: muriel martin from Canada writes: Williams is such a nut bar. We made huge mistake taking Newfoundland out of the woods in the first place. We never fixed this huge mistake and like all unrepaired mistakes they always come to bite in the bum. We now look like Chavez. Go get em Abitibi.

    Muriel -- Just a few words about your post....In light of the rape and nonsupport Newfoundland has received from Canada on several of the "natural resource" ventures(Churchill Fall's in particular) you will find numerous modern day Newfoundlanders who actually will agree with your analogy of "mistake"....However the mistake is ours, in that all Newfoundlanders expect to be treated with respect and equality. Canadians enjoy that right under its Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I'm sure you would expect nothing less. To repair this "huge" mistake would make us(collectively) quite happy. It has been said this province has been a drain on the great dominion of Canada; so be it......If there are others who have opinions in like mine of yours, it would be to your benefit to acquire the "books" and determine the total value of raw resources and man power that Newfoundland has contributed to Canada. You then can deduct monies which have been given to this province through transfer payments and tally a balance. The people of this province will be happy to receive a lump sum payment at your convenience. I can sincerely say with no reserve, I do believe that "we " are bitten by Canada....but I digress....Signing the pact with Canada on March 31, 1949 just a stroke before "All Fool's Day" was indeed a cynical thing to do....I guess that's the ruse for the "Newfie joke".....However unlike Abitibi when this province leaves you can be sure it won't be tapping on Canada's back door.......but I suspect Canada "will" be tapping on Newfoundland's back door trying to drain us for more of our resources...interesting concept don't you think?? Dysfunction and dis-harmony is rampant in Canada....
  465. Ms. F Dee from Bear River, Canada writes: I am very proud of Danny Williams and his govt's stance on our national resources. It is very brave of him to challenge the unfair rules of NAFTA that are set up to benefit corporations. He could do a lot worse than be compared to Hugo Chavez. He could be compared to Harper!!
    I have never been impressed with a conservative as I now am with Premier Williams. Go for it!!
  466. BEN DOVER from WESTERN CANADA, Canada writes: OH DANNY BOY the pipes, the pipes are calling. You are going to need a few tricks to get out of this one. What was the hourly pay rate at the mill?
  467. David any from Loon a Tick, Canada writes: Go Danny ! Who cares about the logic ,economics or anything. Not that you haven't shown all those qualities in my opinion. But life is too short to be violated over the kitchen table by a Corporation playing hard ball. Hard Ball with Hardball. Give it to them Danny!
    This is the spice of life and politics. This is the way to play politics in my Humble Opinion.
    Damn the Torpedoes! Full Speed Ahead!
  468. The Real PS from Canada writes: S Guy from Canada writes:
    .
    S, you're the ONLY person here who seems to get it. Williams may win the battle but he will loose the war. What business in its right mind would start to, or continue to, invest in this province with this Premier.
    .
    Williams is unquestionably a bright man but I think his persona has taken over his business sense. Don't forget, he doesn't care what NL looks like in 20 years, he'll have his place in history as the 'tough' premier plus, he's wealthy.
    .
    He's acting like the guy who runs a company for the short term gain to make the balance sheet look good to his boss to get the big promotion, regardless of what happens to the company after he's gone.
  469. Vivaldo Latoche from Ottawa, Canada writes: Well. there cannot be any questions now. Danny Williams has become Danny Chavez. I suspect that that there is a red telephone line between Willimas and Chavez (presidente of Venezuela) and that they keep in contact on daily basis. The problem is that Abitibi is not an American Company but a Canadian one.

    Therefore, Danny Chavez should not call for a nationalization but for a regionalization or even better for Newfoundlandization.
  470. Independent Thinker from A Former Coal Mining Town, Canada writes: Considering the mill has been around for almost a century, how many times was it actually upgraded?
  471. Marian Olson from Canada writes: Danny once again is playing to his home audience. Assuming Abitibi doesn't roll over and beg for mercy, there will be a long tedious court tussle and for sure the lawyers, as usual, will win, but who else is the question. Likely Danny and his province may suffer with lost investment, and a whopping court judgment, but the ultimate losers will be the rest of us, as we will soon be sending tons of money to Danny and his friends in equalization payments as the economy once again heads south. In the meantime he's a hero at home, where they don't give a rat's *$# about the rest of us.
  472. Percy from NL from Canada writes: I remember well ... the NL off-shore oil industry was nothing more than a wasteful make-work project the fools said.

    I remember well ... the NL hold-out on the Hebron development was a huge mistake the fools said.

    And now the Abitibi-Bowater situation is a business disaster the same fools say.

    How many times do fools have to be proven they are fools? Oh, that's right, they're fools, they don't know the difference do they? Well add another one to your list.
  473. Steven Ferguson from Canada writes: Marian, you have got it about right. Danny is playing to his electorate, the lawyers will be the big winners, and Newfoundland will lose as other companies see what a loose cannon Danny Williams is.
  474. bob london from Canada writes: It does not challenge nafta and I look forward to hearing the legal arguments out of the lawyers mouth or other end. The timber is a lease and although it could represent an "asset" to an operating mill, how could it be an asset to a company which left the area. NL is in its rights to take it back and hopefully they will begin an independent mill. We have to review tenure rights as mills are feeling omnipotent and have not considered the communities they operate since they were independent mills with local owners.
  475. What's Next? from Canada writes: Joan Forsey from Toronto, Canada writes: If AbitibiBowater is "American-based," as so many posters say, why does it have its head office in Montreal?

    To run the Canadian division of their operation.
    The Head Office, is the Canadian head office.
  476. What's Next? from Canada writes: I keep hearing comments about internationals that will not want to do business in Canada after this.
    When a company invests all the profits from manufacturing into other divisions down south. After they rape and pillage they go back home. How in Gods name in this good for Canadian business and interests.
    We do not reap the benefits in the end. The States ends up the winner. Not us. AT OUR EXPENSE.
    This is what Bowater has been doing for years. I saw it first hand as an employee. Wake up people.
  477. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: Should be an interesting case!

    Keep us informed G&M;
    .
  478. aging oldtool from Canada writes: If Abitibi-Bowater have decided they are going to make its workers suffer in an effort to squeeze this government, I do trust Williams will seek a few smart labour lawyers to ram sufficient parts the Newfoundland Labour Code right up A-B's proverbial keester. This violent action of trying to starve their workers into getting on their side is pathetic, mean spirited and obviously breaks labour legislation as well as union contracts. Throw the whole damn Labour Code book at the bast**ds if its necessary to force this rogue corporation to heal and to make amends. It blows me away to listen the little men (and women) hiding behind the corporate screen here telling Dorothy, Toto and the whole damn gang they'll never get back to Kansas unless they cede everything to AB. Hey, it's harder than hell to get a hearing with a NAFTA panel, so why not let AB pay the freight and then fight it out. There is little doubt the province will win, but if it doesn't as (Canada found out with softwood), then start the process to dismantle the NAFTA shackles completely while we still have a semblance of independance. Danny Williams for Canada's Man of the Year and obviously Man of the People. We need more politicians like him with guts rather than politicians looking to please campaign contributors or to bow to the myths of capitalist entitlement.
  479. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Sadly it would appear that Newfoundland is heading back to an EI based economy along with Ontario at this point and perhaps Alberta. They that live by natural resources and branch plant economies die by natural resources and branch plant economies. It's going to be a rough few years in Canada.
  480. Bitumen Queen from Ottawa, Canada writes: Way to go Danny.......
  481. Howard Beale from Canada writes: I suppose if Danny removed the Canadian flag permanently, he would no longer be part of Canada or NAFTA and would be free from all outside constraints.
  482. What's Next? from Canada writes: Williams knows what he is doing. Let the man govern. Thats what he was voted into office to do. Go Danny Go
    The "Peoples Premier"
    We need more like him.
  483. Kyl e from edmonton, Canada writes: Danny boy is popular... too bad even fewer of his people now have jobs. Don't count on too many new companies setting up shop in NL after this pattern of behaviour for Chairman Williams.
  484. xyz Say! from Canada writes: kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Sadly it would appear that Newfoundland is heading back to an EI based economy....

    What is Ontario, the Manufacturing center of Canada and the place with Billions of dollars of Federal infrastructure going to depend on? Federal tax dollars, dollars belonging to taxpayers from all of Canada.

    Ontario became the Manufacturing center of Canada simply because of Ottawa's attention to that detail.

    At the moment there are something like $14 Billion dollars destined for the Auto Sector of Ontario, Federal tax dollars, and $80 Billion destined for the Chartered banks. I believe most of the infrastructure for the Chartered Banks is centered in Ontario as well, again Federal taxpayers dollars.

    So, yes, what is Ontario destined for? No doubt, EI will be one of the supports, but a great big infusion of Federal Taxpayers dollars to build up the Auto and Financial Sectors as well.

    You people are so hypocritical.
  485. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Kyl e from edmonton, Canada writes: Danny boy is popular... too bad even fewer of his people now have jobs....

    Another hypocritical statement. There were 70,000 people laid off in the Manufacturing Sector of Ontario in the month of November. Why are you so low on knowledge?

    I am sure they are on the EI role by now because there have been no new jobs created in Ontario.

    I am not happy about that, I am actually sad, but I point it out because of all the hypocritical statements made on this site concerning Newfoundland and Labrador.
  486. Farm Boy from The Burbs, Canada writes: What spoils a thread like this is the inane comments from people who don't appear to have even read the article or, if they have, they haven't understood half of it. Some commenters seem to think that it is Williams' actions that are causing the mill closing, when in fact AB made the decision. Others are under the impression that AB somehow owns the forest land and are going to have it stolen from them. Reading comprehension is not the strong point of G&M; commenters!
  487. Just Looking from Halifax, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: Anne Johnston, while you call Newfoundlanders dumb, your provincial government under Ed Stalemate gives all the oil and the oil profits to the Americans, talk about dumb.=============================
    And how long has NFL been giving its electricity away to Quebec? Talk about dumb.
  488. Just Looking from Halifax, Canada writes: Danny is showing off and the workers a paying the price for it. I hate to see people losing their job for nothing right before Xmas.
    What a shame.
  489. dave william from van city, Canada writes: Newfoundland and Labrador had to give the rights to electricity away to Quebec to join canada.
    What did you have to give to join canada Just Looking from Halifax?
  490. Bill Hopkins from London, Canada writes: Go, Danny boy, go! If the province granted the rights, they can withdraw them. The right should be effective only so far as the company exercises them. I can't imagine they are granted in perpetuity.
  491. Mickey Hickey from Toronto, Canada writes: Them were the days when theft could be covered by a thin veneer of legality. This is an earth shaking development for Canada. NFL and Danny Williams are leading the way in returning Crown assets to the Crown when they are not being utilized to benefit the people as outlined in the founding agreements. Politicians coast to coast at the provincial and federal level are now in a state of high anxiety as they anticipate their voters pointing to the NFL example and saying if it is good enough for NFL it is good enough for us. If Danny Williams was leader of the Conservative Party of Canada the Conservatives would be a shoo in the next federal election. Keep it up Danny the whole country needs you.
  492. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: Mickey: Yes they are. And Alberta needs a DW here. Stelmach is a clown for the Big Oil boys in Calgary. What DW is doing should be done here in Alberta. Tell PetroCan to develop Fort Hills or the province will take it over and develop it. Tell Imperial Oil to build Kearl or go home. Tell Enbridge to build a line to Ontario or get out of the way and we will build it. What needs to be said to all monopolies develop or get out of country and the people of Canada will develop it.
  493. T E from Oakville, Canada writes: This is an important precident for Canada not just NL. Goooo Danny!
  494. Red Green from Bahamas writes:

    AbitibiBowater appears to be a Canadian company. However it does have legal entanglements which lead to Deleware and South Carolina.

    From SEDAR:

    Administration
    AbitibiBowater Inc.
    1155 Metcalfe Street, Suite 800
    Montréal, Québec
    H3B 5H2 Canada
    T 514 875-2160
    info@abitibibowater.com

    Investor Relations
    AbitibiBowater Inc.
    1155 Metcalfe Street, Suite 800
    Montréal, Québec
    H3B 5H2 Canada
    T 514 875-2160
    ir@abitibibowater.com

    Environment
    AbitibiBowater Inc.
    1155 Metcalfe Street, Suite 800
    Montréal, Québec
    H3B 5H2 Canada
    T 514 875-2160
    info@abitibibowater.com

    Media
    AbitibiBowater Inc. Communications & Government Affairs
    1155 Metcalfe Street, Suite 800
    Montréal, Québec
    H3B 5H2 Canada
    T 514 875-2160
    media@abitibibowater.com

    Also from SEDAR:

    Date of Formation: Jan 25 2007 Stock Symbol: ABH
    Jurisdiction Where Formed: Delaware, USA

    And of course there is Bowater:

    Bowater Incorporated, headquartered in Greenville, SC, is a leading producer of coated and specialty papers and newsprint.

    .
  495. Normand LaBine from Winnipeg, Canada writes: AbitibiBowater is wrong on one key point. Their letter said, "“The legislation, which is without precedent in Canada..." Because of US pressure, Diefenbaker, Progessive Conservative Prime Minister of Canada, expropriated El Dorado Nuclear Mines and their properties across Canada, including the Port Hope land. The owners were my Great Uncles, Gilbert and Charlie LaBine. They were paid $82 million as compensation, and walked away. It might not have been under a 'free trade' deal, but it showed Canada's willingness to act for security of its resources. Dief also destroyed the Avro Arrow as well, where my grand-dad was the Chief purchasing agent. So these guys need to get there story straight.
  496. Joan Forsey from Toronto, Canada writes: Re AbitibiBowater's head office: What's Next? says the head office in
    Montreal is to run the Canadian operations. Yet a CIBC document says it's the head office for Abitibi-Bowater Inc. and that after the Abitibi and Bowater merger in 2007, Bowater's former head office became a U.S. regional manufacturing/sales office. (Abitibi's head office had been in Montreal.)

    So why is the company thought of as American? Because it was incorporated in Delaware? Just wondering. Thanks.
  497. xyz Say! from Canada writes: Normand LaBine from Winnipeg, Canada writes: AbitibiBowater is wrong on one key point. Their letter said, "“The legislation, which is without precedent in Canada..." Because of US pressure, Diefenbaker, Progessive Conservative Prime Minister of Canada, expropriated El Dorado Nuclear Mines and their properties across Canada, including the Port Hope land. The owners were my Great Uncles, Gilbert and Charlie LaBine. They were paid $82 million as compensation, and walked away. It might not have been under a 'free trade' deal, but it showed Canada's willingness to act for security of its resources. Dief also destroyed the Avro Arrow as well, where my grand-dad was the Chief purchasing agent. So these guys need to get there story straight........

    NORMAND LABINE:- THANKS FOR YOUR CASES OF PRECEDENT!
  498. FRANK FROM SCARBOROUGH from Scarborough, Ontario, Canada writes: Danny Williams might achieve short-term popularity from this move but he is sending a LOUD signal that it's dangerous to invest in Newfoundland and he will likely cripple the economy of that province for years to come, long after he is retired and out of office. It's not as if it's his doing that Newfoundland has been doing well in recent years, he does not determine world commodity prices.

    Firms come and go and the jobs that go with them come and go, in any type of economy. A move like this will scare off investment from Newfoundland and Williams will never be directly blamed for the loss of jobs that were never be created in the first place because any reasonable firm will prefer to invest somewhere else. He is an irreponsible demagogue and his peers in the Newfoundland legislature should force him out before it's too late.
  499. one voice from Nanaimo, Canada writes: Frank from Scarborough, you are jealous that you don't have someone with Danny's guts leading your province. I say all the more power to Danny Williams. It is time that democratically elected governments which are the real voice of the people assert themselves against the big businesses that are always trying to run our country...and all they care about is the bottom line, not the people who live there!
  500. one voice from Nanaimo, Canada writes: and Frank and all you other scaremongers....Danny Williams is NOT sending investors a message that it is dangerous to invest in NFL, he is telling them to live up to their side of the agreements and behave honorably to their employees or the government is ready to step in and seize the province's assets back. The resources are crown assets, AB contracted to get them to market.. They do NOT own them, the people of the province DO. I wish Danny was running British Columbia right now.
  501. xyz Say! from Canada writes: FRANK FROM SCARBOROUGH from Scarborough: - Please don't be so gullible - AbitibiBowaters was operating a business that was established in Newfoundland and Labrador since 1905, it was 103 years old and AbitibiBowaters has been only at the helm for a short while. They were treated as fairly as their predecessors in Grand Falls by the NL government. AbitibiBowaters is a casualty of the NAFTA structure. The manufacturing bubble that it created was bound to burst just as the Information Technology bubble it had spun burst in 2000. What a calamity that was. Had this AbitibiBowaters not had other operations depending upon it to survive, this business might have survived for another 100 years, given the fact it had a ready supply of wood fiber and hydroelectric energy. I am sure AbitibiBowaters was cognizant of the fact that one asset/resource which came with this particular operation, Hydroelectric Energy could be readily turned into cash. It then decided that it could close down its paper operation in Grand Falls, since it had a number of other operations making paper and become a Power Company with the Hydroenergy which was available at its Grand Falls operation and make millions annually from the generation of power to subsidize those other operations which were lagging. After the Depression which is ongoing, if there is a need for Paper Making, you can bet your bottom dollar that AbitibiBowaters, if it is still a solvent company and there is a need in that niche for paper making, it will be knocking at the Newfoundland and Labrador government office to pick up where it left off. The NL government turned over backwards to accommodate that company and it knows it. Industry goes where it can make a dollar.
  502. Paul Chislett from Windsor, Canada writes: National strike: we should be shutting down every corporation there is a moving to nationalize them....
  503. Canadian First from Hazelton, Canada writes: The big companies have run roughshod over B.C. for many years. Way to go Canada stand up for what is ours.

    A retired Logger, thirty five years on the stump.
  504. A. Nonymous from IP Ville, United States writes: We need to organize a bailout ASAP.

    We need to appoint an Abitibi Czar to make sure conditions are being met.

    Unions and workers should offer NO CONCESSIONS.
  505. steve allan from Canada writes: Investing in Newfoundland is like investing in a banana republic - if you run afoul of the government, you risk having your assets seized.

    A very bad precedent indeed.
  506. C Oslie from Canada writes: The company was given the right to cut timber and use water in exchange for providing jobs. No more jobs, no more timber and water rights.

    Seems fair to me.

    If Abitibi doesn't want to give up the hydro dams, the only part of this that can fairly be said to be expropriated, let them keep them. They're pretty useless though if you're not allowed to use the water.
  507. your kids teacher from London, Canada writes: How refreshing to see an actual vertebrate politician in Canada. Good on you Mr. Williams. Abitibi-Bowater and the rest of the corporate parasites that infest this country deserve exactly what you have given them; notice that it is we the people of this country who control our destiny and not the corporations. Let the legal whores engorge themselves on their useless feast, pustules on the nation's hindquarters that they are. Merry Christmas indeed Mr. Williams and to all my good friends on the Rock I say, Surgite!
  508. Carman McNary from Edmonton, Canada writes: I think it is great that Newfoundlanders support their communist leader. It is even fitting since the bulk of the economy there for the past half century has been spreading wealth from Ontario, B.C and Alberta among the "poor". But, unless the law of the rest of Canada (and the developed world) somehow does not apply to Newfoundland, their government will eventually have to pay for the little PR stunt. In the meantime, enjoy! I hope the oil lasts for a long time as the rest of us are getting tired of supporting this sort of nonsense.

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