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'We cannot afford ... a catastrophic short-term collapse'

The Canadian Press and Globe and Mail Update

PM, McGuinty pledge $4-billion for auto makers ...Read the full article

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  1. Paul C from Canada writes: Can I get a million bucks to prepare for bankruptcy? Only seems fair.
  2. A Westerner from Small Town Sask, Canada writes: The Coalition is forcing the PM to make this funding bailout. We had better see the Union step up and agree to concessions our I will be withholding the taxes on my $15 / hour wage!
  3. BoB ImemI from Canada writes: ..//

    I resent this use of my money.

    ..//
  4. J Law from Canada writes: Cy Warops from Canada writes

    You spell it 'check' in this instance. Cheque is something you can cash if the funds are in the bank. But why should I tell someone who is voting Coalition as details aren't important?
  5. Joe Technicality from Hamilton, Canada writes: I lost my job and I'm having trouble making my mortgage payments. May I have a bailout too, please?

    Seems all you have to do is beg.

    At least I'm sending this message for free instead of showing up in a corporate jet to do so.
  6. mike house from Toronto, Canada writes: how about bringing jobs back from Mexico for the 4 Billion
  7. Maximus Bishop from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: This money is heading into a very big black hole, Chrysler which is help by a private hedge fund group, which does not wish to help them out any further, instead it is asking North American Tax payers to fund them, how crazy is this?
    The USA blogs are saying that one or both of these companies will not be able to turn things around in ninety days, so there will be either a Chapter 7 or 11 very soon for one or both, then what happens to our Taxpayer money eh?
  8. Jason k from Canada writes: can I withhold my portion of this from my income taxes? this is just wrong.

    I would say that I feel bad for the people in Ont but the true is that they receive transfer payments from the feds so the rest of the country is footing this whole bill. Just not fair!
  9. Don't forget to bring a towel from Canada writes: Where's my bail out?

    What happens when the big 3 move all jobs back to the US in their down sizing process?

    What happens when they fire 300,000 jobs instead of losing the original 400,000 jobs

    Where's Toyota's and Hondas bail out?

    Where's VW and BMW's bailout?

    Why have the CAW / UAW already said they are not going to cooperate?
  10. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Watching the news conference and I keep pinching myself--a McGuinty/Harper love fest. The Seinfeld Bizzarro World lives.

    From what I am hearing, 'all-stake-holders' will have to take cuts. Let's see the details.

    There appears to be 'tough conditions' being put into place.

    Between the lines, they are conceding the D3 will be restructured and much smaller--that is why they are only referring to 'keeping their 20% share'--a share that will be significantly smaller because of a 40-50% cut in total demand, and a probable continuing decrease in the D3 market share.

    I see at least 100,000 jobs to disappear in the next 2 years concerning the D3 production jobs and their supply chain partners in Canada, while desperately trying to conserve a much smaller D3 part of the industry.
    .
  11. Ryan . from St. Catharines, Canada writes: What a complete waste of money. But then again, I suppose the Big 3 have no choice when the unions are demanding more money, even though they make $70 an hour.
    The quicker the auto-industry dies, the better everyone will be.
  12. Ray jones from Hamilton, Canada writes: Four thousand million dollars! I had to give my boss a business plan so that I could move my lunch hour forward thirty minutes. I'd sure like to see what must be a very detailed business plan that the carmakers submitted.
  13. bilbo baggins from Canada writes: This is wasted money. Until they change the vehicles they are building and the union makes significant pay / pension cut concessions, I wouldnt give them anything. They are still going to go bankrupt.
  14. byronc conroy from vancouver island, writes: Harper could you help me out with my visa bill. I have overextended myself and no legitimate lending institution will lend to me. I promise to make better decisions.
  15. Mark S Noel from Canada writes: What a waste of hard earned Western's tax dollars. Another welfare cheque for Ontario. I'm sick of paying you people my hard earned money. Maybe you should get real jobs instead of handouts.
  16. Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes: This is just the beginning.

    The Corporate-Union welfare bums have been handed they keys to the Treasury and there's nothing hard-working taxpayers can do about it.
  17. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...was this really ever in doubt?......
  18. Antonio Bach from Calgary, Alberta, Canada writes: Had Layton been in charge, they'll be getting twice that amount...
  19. Apu Nahasapeemapetilon from Vancouver, Canada writes: I did my part this year for the 'Big 3' by puchasing a new vehicle. I want a refund on the GST I paid.
  20. Jason Roy from Central Nova - After October 14th AKA STILL Peter Mackay Country, Canada writes: Sorry folks but you were going to get this either way...either from the current feds themselves or the coalition government in the event they (CPC) were defeated.

    There was no in between....
  21. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    There is another issue not being disgussed with its medium and long term repercussions for both the UAW and the CAW.

    There have been HUGE investments by the D3 in Mexico over the last 5 years-THIS year included!

    Quite easy to understand where the 'wage earned' is between $1.50-$ 3.00/Hour (no typo)

    While several cars made there get shipped to central and South America, many are being shipped into the North America. Add to that, more and more parts manufacturers are also setting up in Mexico.

    One just has to google 'automotive investment in Mexico'--BILLIONS of dollars being invested and the huge transfer of jobs almost quietly taking place.

    Perhaps this is a pre-emptive strike against 2 companies who have plans to enter the North American market place in the next two years.

    If you haven't heard of them, you will shortly. One is called TATA from India and the other is GEELY from China. ( we all laughed at Honda/Toyota in the 70's..)

    Because there doesn't appear to be any 'national' loyalty when purchasing a vehicle, my call is that the D3 Canadian auto sector will last only several more years--try 3-5, maybe less and there may be only 1 survivor.
    .
  22. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Mark S Noel, as you are certainly aware, no one east of Manitoba pays taxes and of course it's only your taxes that are paying for this. It must be nice that there are so many posters here so well off they are paying more than 4 billion a year in taxes.

    Oh and gee, those who are stupid enough to believe that autoworkers make 70 an hour. It's no wonder this country is in an economic crisis, many of our citizens can't do very basic math or look up facts.
  23. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Antonio Bach from Calgary....have patience Antonio....this isn't the end....this is only the let-me-just-pit-it-in-a-wee-bit figure of 4 billion.....there's much more to come......
  24. ali mansur from etobicoke, Canada writes: A Westerner from Small Town Sask, Canada writes: The Coalition is forcing the PM to make this funding bailout.

    ------

    He's taking credit for the bailout. He's standing by the bailout. It's his bailout. He is giving OUR money away to unions. Please remember that next time you tout the awesome conservative prowess of Harper.
  25. Gail Thomas from Canada writes: Now that we've bailed out the Big 3, will the Little 3 (Libs,NDP,Bloc) be happy now? No..they're still pushing for power to raise our taxes so they can spend more of our money.
  26. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: We can thank the coalition for for this generous loan to auto makers I hope for that is does what it is supposed to do. Somehow I doubt it, just prolonging the inevitable. But when it does not work out we can blame Harper and McGuinty for pi$$ing away the Canadian taxpayers money so that should be worth 4 billion to the coalition supporters.
  27. Mark S Noel from Canada writes: I hope the Gov of Canada cuts the cheque from a US bank so the auto makers won't have to pay the fee for a cheque drawn on a foreign bank account. This money will head south of the border faster than Jack to a photo op.
  28. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: The current government does not have the authority to offer bailouts to either the automakers, or the banks. These are extraordinary spending items that do not lie within the scope of the current year's budget.

    If he is to respect our parliamentary system, Mr. Harper must table both bailouts as separate spending bills when the sitting resumes at the end of January. Parliament must be the final word on how taxpayers' money will be spent.
  29. Frank Farmer from MyWheatfield, Canada writes: Wheat prices are down 60% in 8 months with no prospect of increaseing. Canola is down 50%. The Americans, reacting to the militant cattle producers in Montana have put up barriers to trade in beef, forcing the liquidation of the Canadian cattle herd at very depressed prices. So I need a bailout. So do my neighbours. Hey, what's more important? Food on your table or a new car in your garage? Come on Canadian taxpayer - I NEED your money. Really. I need a new car for my garage, and the only way I can see it happening is if I get a bailout.
    And Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer, I think I will actually get some. The Government has no resistance. They'll bend to pressure. We've got lots of evidence they will - it happens every day.
    STEWARDSHIP OF THE NATION'S ECONOMY AND TAXPAYER'S MONEY IS DEAD. POLITICAL EXEDIENCY IS ALIVE AND WELL (but it will bite them in the end). WHAT A GONG SHOW.
  30. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Wilma, no you can't thank the coalition, Harper did this himself. He could have allowed parliament to sit and got defeated, he could have called a bluff, he could have allowed a coalition to take over. Then if the coalition had done the bailout you could thank them for it. But, Harper did nothing of the sort.

    So whether Harper wanted to bail out the industry or not, it falls to his responisbility for doing so. Don't try to blame it on others, no one made him do it, he did so willngly.
  31. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Gail Thomas from Canada....the little 3, when taken together, are giving poor Stevie nightmares, and causing him to do and say irrational things....lately, he has given even his most ardent sycophants reason to pause.....
  32. bilbo baggins from Canada writes: Mark S Noel - fast forward your reality pal. Sub $ 40 / barrel oil makes Alberta a sad place. Your premier just announced the province will likely dip into the reserve fund to pay the bills. Welcome to the recession.
  33. Joseph Matheson from Glace Bay, Canada writes: On Dec 18, 2008 The Sydney Morning Herald 'Australia', reported that General Motors had just opened a facility in Shenyang City in China that will produce 158,000 cars a year. We nice Canadians are going to underwrite the cost of this for the destitute General Motors Corporation to the tune of almost 5 billion and no assursnce that jobs will be maintained in Canada at present levels. Why hasn't this newspaper informed their readers of the China syndrome for Canadian workers and where are the Politicians who should be raising hell of this venture that will eventually spell the end of auto making in this country.
  34. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Wilma Guywin ...ah, yes, the neocon spinner par excellence....you've outdid yourself this time Wilma.....time for a Senate appointment.....head for the trough while the heading is good!!!.....
  35. bilbo baggins from Canada writes: Norm Jom - You cant have it both ways either. The opposition parties are contributing to the budget in the minority govt. This is a shared scenario. I love it when people try to blame world economic woes on a party or one person.
  36. JA M from Our Town, Canada writes: Lets hear it for capitalism and free markets ... the next psuedo economist who gives that lame Economics 101 explanation for not raising the minimum wage gets my foot up their rear end
  37. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: bilbo, I am not blaming the world's woos on anyone. Simply pointing out that the bailout is from the Harper government, while it very well may be supported by others doesn't change the fact of who it is coming from. Harper's government does not have to do this, but they are.
  38. Greg R from Canada writes: Use the money to open a new Museum of Ugly Design and employ the auto workers to be guides and promoters.

    Ooops - that's Art Spending. Harper would never do it.
  39. Lamont Lamont from Canada writes: The CAW members swear not to take cuts, and they will still vote NDP anyway, should have let them go bankrupt and restructure.
  40. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Joseph Matheson from Glace Bay...really Joseph, our record for largess for good causes under Stevie is without blemish, aren't we spending both human and financial capital so that little girls get to attend school?......
  41. Jim Z from Canada writes: Actually the government did not have a choice to let the auto sector go bankrupt and collapse would have pushed the economy over the cliff.
    We would be looking at a depression. Twenty-Five per cent unemployment, soup kitchens and breadlines. Financial market collapse and pension and savings destroyed. We will be lucky to survive this crisis and can only hope the recession will not last long.
    I believe at the very best we are looking at least 4 years before we see daylight. The CAW need to compromise and assist the auto sector to recover because the alternative is bankrupcy and no job.
  42. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Antonio Bach from Calgary, Alberta, Canada writes: Had Layton been in charge, they'll be getting twice that amount...

    ..............................................................................................................

    And a pay raise with no concessions.

    We'll keep the steady hand.
  43. T. M. from Edmonton, Canada writes: The causal nexus of this 'crisis' is that US debtors can no longer afford, or no longer want, to buy cars that are made in the Canadian plants. There are not enough orders to keep the plants running.

    That's what Canada gets for hitching it's wagon to a horse that is half-dead.

    So if the federal government (who supposedly represent The People of Canada) and the Ontario government (who supposedly represent The People of Ontario) want to help those plants, they should be buying small, fuel-efficient cars from the automakers - either 4,000 million dollars worth, or whatever number it takes to keep the plants running - and GIVING them to the taxpayers of Canada, whose tax money bought them!

    Either that, or, if these governments want Canadians to continue to produce automobiles, let these obsolete businesses go bankrupt and start new, modern, govenment-owned and operated automobile-manufacturing facilities.

    The cars produced in these facilities would be of a design decided upon by the People of Canada. Hopefully they would be simple and resilient enough so that the owner could easily maintain them and they would last a very long time - in other words, the opposite of the current crop of incredibly expensive, high-tech lemons.

    We either follow the government's plan and get nothing, or we break from the road to ruin and get some great cars for our money. The choice is supposed to be ours, not the air-heads in Ottawa.
  44. Derek live..... from the center of the universe from Canada writes: With Oil down to the low 30's ...Alberta is on the way to becoming a have not province with Ontario or at the very least significantly reduced equalization contributor ....this will make provincial debt and deficits expand ...we might be talking about federal deficits here bu t be prepared to see provincial debt rise considerably ...the federal tories will do what the federal liberals did by offloading debt onto the provinces to make their books look better....this will get nasty
  45. Fight the New World Order from United States writes: Maximus Bishop from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: This money is heading into a very big black hole, Chrysler which is help by a private hedge fund group, which does not wish to help them out any further, instead it is asking North American Tax payers to fund them, how crazy is this?

    Bishop, well said. It's just a bailout for the rich. 3 billion is a bandaid that is not going to save these auto workers from NAFTA and globalization. Has anyone noticed that Canada is becoming a country that doesn't produce anthing? Back in the day, I remember getting my shoes from Canadian manufacturing company and now I can't find anything that isn't made in China. The only thing that Canada and the US produce now is derivatives and other fake investment products.

    Anyway, Harper saying that there is no way of getting around a deficit. Here's an idea PM Harper. To make up for this $3-4 billion dump in the toilet, force a 40% cut across the board to all federal government workers to bring their salaries back in alignment with similar professions in the Canadian private sector.

    This is nonsense plain in simple.
  46. Spending our money from Canada writes:
    Do your part,

    Next new car you buy,

    Buy the car your neighbour built.

    We all win.
  47. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Gee Jim Z, gotta love a guy that can make up projections on the fly like that. Do you read palms too?
  48. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Roger Cooper from Canada writes: The current government does not have the authority to offer bailouts to either the automakers, or the banks. These are extraordinary spending items that do not lie within the scope of the current year's budget.

    If he is to respect our parliamentary system, Mr. Harper must table both bailouts as separate spending bills when the sitting resumes at the end of January. Parliament must be the final word on how taxpayers' money will be spent.

    According to the Policy Accord to Address the Present Economic Crisis
    penned and signed by all parties supporting the Coalition they support this and a whole lot more. They even support an increase for Arts in Culture in the accord. It is a socialist dream the Accord but as Margaret Thatcher once said the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of someone else's money.
  49. Dan Green from Palm Beach Gardens FL, United States writes: God Save.

    1. Parliament
    2. The Queen
    3. The CAW

    in that order !
  50. phineas freekinstone from out there somewhere, Canada writes: stinks
  51. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: bilbo, I am not blaming the world's woos on anyone. Simply pointing out that the bailout is from the Harper government, while it very well may be supported by others doesn't change the fact of who it is coming from. Harper's government does not have to do this, but they are.

    ..............................................................................................................

    I guess you missed the part about McGuinty's Liberal contribution.

    And this from the same guy that says they don't have to make concessions cause if they lose their jobs, they can collect UI.

    For how long? Think a little. Better still. Don't post. You make no sense at all.
  52. Allan McElroy from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Current CAW wages average in the vicinity of $28-$30/hour. The other 40 bucks is largely pension, which rather than being vested is paid for by the current operations. That $40 has to be addressed aggressively; there's more available there for cutting than there is in the current hourly wage. For those of you feeling sorry for those 'poor pensioners' who might lose 20-30% of their pension, please remember that most of us have lost far more than that from our RSPs, which are tied up in the market.
  53. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Fight the New World Order from United States writes: To make up for this $3-4 billion dump in the toilet, force a 40% cut across the board to all federal government workers to bring their salaries back in alignment with similar professions in the Canadian private sector.

    --------------------------

    Apparently you're pretty clueless about what government employees make. I left the public service to get 30% more in wages.
  54. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Time to organize citizens around a taxe$ revolt, and refu$e to pay taxe$ for bailout$ of the financially obe$e. -- Better do it before those blind, vi$ionle$$, planle$$, follower$ ruin the Canadian economy! Time i$ running out, a$ we $hall $oon $ee in the New Year.
  55. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: Joseph Matheson said, 'The Sydney Morning Herald 'Australia', reported that General Motors had just opened a facility in Shenyang City in China that will produce 158,000 cars a year.'

    Yes, and Bloomberg reported this week that GM has invested US$3.6 billion over the last three years to expand its production in Mexico. See this link:

    http://tinyurl.com/8c7gwl
  56. R. P. from nowhere, writes: I would never wish anyone losing their job. You people make me sick.
  57. Major Pain from Canada writes: This is BS. I support injecting cash into the system, but not these guys. The industry needs massive change. This is tooling around the edges. Let these ones fail and put smaller amounts of cash into new startups building different kinds of cars. The upheaval will be tremendous, but the economy will be stronger for it at the end of the road. This just keeps things limping along.
  58. Jack Sprat from Calgary, Canada writes: bilbo, Alberta won't be really feeling the recession for a while. The oil companies are certain oil will come back up eventually and will try to hold on to as many as people as possible. The suspended projects from lack of cash flow will take a bite, but our labour participation rates are still very, very high and unemployment very low.

    But give us a year (or two) of this and lets see where things stand. Or if oil keeps going down, that might be sooner. But right now, I don't think the large majority of Albertans feel the recession at all.
  59. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Fight the New World Order from United States

    There is no way that would fly the government would be brought down in a heart beat if they did anything less than throw money at at all the squeaky wheels. They went crazy when he was to implement a no strike clause for a two year period on all government employees. The opposition parties saw this as playing politics and punitive.
  60. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Boycott Petro Canada! Put all those Albertans out of work.
  61. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes:
    I guess you missed the part about McGuinty's Liberal contribution.

    And this from the same guy that says they don't have to make concessions cause if they lose their jobs, they can collect UI.

    For how long? Think a little. Better still. Don't post. You make no sense at all.

    ---------------------------------

    No, I missed nothing. My original comment was in response to Wilma's on blaming the coalition. Why would I bring McGuinty's contribution into it when it has nothing to do with what was mentioned. I have never said if they lose thier jobs they can collect UI. You are clearly mistaking me for someone else.

    It's no wonder it makes no sense to you. You're reading other people's posts and attributing them to me.
  62. Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: My sincere condolences to vitrually all posters above. It sure must be hell trying to live with yourselves burdened by all the negativity and lack of financial knowledge on economics and concern for your fellow man.
  63. Spending our money from Canada writes:
    Buy goods made in Canada, by Canadians.

    We all win.
  64. mrs dobson from Canada writes: I am okay with this.It isn't a left or right issue.I just wish I could see an ounce of contrition from these CEO's. If PM Harper hadn't done this, he would have been slammed, and he does it, and he is slammed. Alberta with the NEP we got nothing.So we don't care what Ontario does or doesn't lose, try it on for size, and see what it feels like , plus you can have your lousy unions. They had better make concessions, these bullies doesn't seem to understand, a cut in pay, or no job.Can they not think what would be best?
    I am still okay with it.Maybe we can just print money like Obama is going to do.Everyone loves him, and he's going to make this stimulus package a trillion dollars. A legacy to be paid off for generations to come.Great!
  65. Mel Hoffart from Dawson Creek, Canada writes: The most obvious problem with both the articles and the comments on this scenario over the past few days is trying to sift the flydo from the pepper. The facts are buried in mountains of emotional bs, and the reporting to date has been so selective in the information printed, that I have tried to read as many different publications as possible - and I still know that I don't know. In reality no one can give more than just an emotional rant with the dearth of facts presented thus far. It is little wonder that our voted officals must be better at photo ops and question ducking than nearly any other skill if they want to be elected.
  66. C D from Victoria, Canada writes: I do not like the fact that my money is being used to bail out a company that has severe labour issues.
  67. Jack Sprat from Calgary, Canada writes: Keeping manufacturing in Canada, a very worthy goal, won't be done with bailouts. Canada needs to examine its trade agreements and tax structures.

    Frankly, Dion had some good ideas. Canada should tax companies that pollute and do not maintain minimum worker conditions - regardless of where the actual product is manufactured, including China. As consumers, we have the power to protect our labour gains over the last 200 years, if we just accept we will be paying more for these products.

    Of course, Canada couldn't do this realisitically. It would take the United States.
  68. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes: .
    Taxpayers who wouldn't buy the Detroit-3's lousy cars have to pay for them anyway.
  69. bob saunders from Belleville, ON, Canada writes: Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Joseph Matheson from Glace Bay...really Joseph, our record for largess for good causes under Stevie is without blemish, aren't we spending both human and financial capital so that little girls get to attend school?...... -------------------- No stevie is just being a man of his word, honouring the commitments that the liberals got us in to. If the Federal government doesn't bail out/loan the D3 money then lots of crying that Harpers not doing enough, if he allows them to declare chapter 11( proper thing) then you'll be saying he hates Ontario. Face it no matter what he does, right or wrong, the haters will be haters.
  70. Anyone but Ignatieff; Rae and LeBlanc. or Duceppe for the new Liberal Leader. from Canada writes: Just another example of the non union work force bailing out, once again, the $70 an hour union workers in the auto sector?
  71. Mister Fartleberry from Toronto, Canada writes: Quick - better cut a few hundred million out of the Ministries of Environment to pay for it. And don't forget to jack up all user fees. Just put a box in the income tax form to fill in with the appropriate amount we'll have to pay to the Dopey3-1.

    Seriously, given all the new crossover cr*p coming off their assembly lines who's going to run out and buy them up the next 90 days? Oh yeah, the dopes that think gas will be 73 cents forever now. Just doesn't make sense to keep building what amounts to more inventory. I just read in some auto columns that crossover simply means the vehicle does nothing well. Billions of our money to just keep them living in an auto production dreamworld.

    Wait a few hours and we'll see Lewenza proclaiming an attack on Canadian Auto workers. So predictable.
  72. DON BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - As Zando Lee stated above, this is only a down payment.

    - Mega Bucks will be needed to avoid a big meltdown in the North American economy.

    ~

    - Note to Lamont Lamont; If the CAW voted NDP like you say, why are both Oshawa ridings Conversative.....

    ~
  73. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa

    For the majority of workers in Canada who do not have dental benefits for their families, pension plans, extra medical benefits, job security, paid sick days and holidays, crying about the hardship of being a government employee falls on deaf ears.
  74. R. P. from nowhere, writes: mrs dobson...the CAW DID NOT TAKE A WAGE HIKE FOR THREE YEARS. WE AGREED TO MORE COPAY FOR DRUGS AND MEDICAL SERVICES. WE GAVE UP A WEEK VACATION. WE REWROTE OUR LABOUR CONTRACTS TO GIVE MORE TO THE COMPANY.
  75. The Economic Hitman jr. from Vancouver, Canada writes: The greatest danger is that this won't be the end of the support. What happens if the US pledges another $20-30B under Obama? Do we follow proportionately again? Are we 'pot committed' at this point?
  76. R. P. from nowhere, writes: THE LAST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAW MEMBERS DO NOT MAKE 70 DOLLARS AN HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE BE SO STUPID TO BELIEVE THIS?
  77. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa

    For the majority of workers in Canada who do not have dental benefits for their families, pension plans, extra medical benefits, job security, paid sick days and holidays, crying about the hardship of being a government employee falls on deaf ears.

    -------------------------------

    Deaf ears? You mean deaf brains. I didn't cry about any hardship. I told another poster that I left the public service for greener pastures and better pay in the private sector. Do you actually read what people are typing or make it up as you go along.

    The poster said public service employees should take a 40% cut to be in line with the private sector, I responded that I took a decent wage by entering the private sector. Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  78. m a from Toronto, Canada writes: I wish the Western people who post on this board would get a hold of their inferiority complex and stop taking pointless swipes at people who live in Ontario. a) We have 12 million people and we pay more taxes than all of you combined, and b) many of the people here think this bailout is just as disgusting as you do.
  79. Byron Leclair from mississauga, Canada writes: I run a small business...I hope that there are programs coming that will assist us in continuing as a going concern!
  80. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: THE LAST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAW MEMBERS DO NOT MAKE 70 DOLLARS AN HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE BE SO STUPID TO BELIEVE THIS?

    -------------------------------

    Even big bold capital letters will not get through to them. It's like they have a set of talking points and no clue how to formulate anything in thier own heads.
  81. Jason Roy from Central Nova - After October 14th AKA STILL Peter Mackay Country, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: bilbo, I am not blaming the world's woos on anyone. Simply pointing out that the bailout is from the Harper government, while it very well may be supported by others doesn't change the fact of who it is coming from. Harper's government does not have to do this, but they are.

    ---------------------------------

    Correct me if I'm wrong but the article I read said the Ontario government was contributing 1.3B...

    McGuinty's government doesn't have to do this, but they are.
  82. Being Canadian from Canada writes: People's ignorant bias's are blatantly exposed in this anti-union doggy doo doo commentary. The thinking person will realize that this is just the beginning and a huge one at that, of the thirdworldification of our country, indeed the world. If CAW is required to offer concessions than I think concessions should be shared ones. Let's start with government workers. First, fire all the dead wood, second check the credentials of ALL government workers, (degree's, diploma's etc) and fire those who have fraudulently obtained their 'cushy' jobs. This is just a start. That should bring down our collective costs by quite a bit. Is it possible to have a house, and a car two minor material accumulations that we have a right to expect in this a rich country, without the type of the wages (combined household or otherwise) offered by the CAW. No it is not. This is a plan for the elite and we will lose all the billions thrown into the industry and our children will pay and pay without remotely living a standard of living we have all become accustomed too. Wake up, something wicked this way comes. Or be stupid jump on to the simple and I assure you, you will submit.
  83. bedford capital from Canada writes: GM / Chrysler do not have $4 billion in tangible cdn assets to pledge vs the loans. It's a dog & pony show. These US firms have not interest in preserving cdn interests never have never will. Harper ? McGuinty are being played for suckers as they have in the past, with other 'investments in our auto industry'.

    We're better off to allow a pre packaged bankruptcy with these funds and then back a new canadian company. I'm sure Magna could emerge as a car producer with the current GM & Chrysler cdn assets.
  84. gar gurr from Canada writes: As a Conservative supporter I believe Harper has just shot himself in the foot. This is a very slippery slope with Obama yet to make his plans known that could include shutting down the Canadian wing of the automakers. The Harper government has been had by the left wing. It will take at least six months to get any of this 30 billion he is throwing out to make its mark. Ignatieff by that time will have made his mark and will force an election. He will probably win just as this 30 billion will start doing what it is supposed to do in helping the economy recover. Harper better hope that the coalition defeat his budget and take over these headaches. This picture will then reverse itself in his favor,because those 3 parties will keep shovelling money off the truck and will have to bring back higher personal taxes and push the GST up to 7% again to get us out of deficit. Once more Canadians support a party they think has the courage of its convictions and once more we end up with power mad politicians that will do anything to win.If they only knew they are on the wrong side of most voters thinking by trying to buy their power at our expense.Well run families put a limit on their spending and only buy what they can afford. Maybe we should have a league of homemakers running the country
  85. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Jason Roy from Central Nova - After October 14th AKA STILL Peter Mackay Country, Canada writes: Correct me if I'm wrong but the article I read said the Ontario government was contributing 1.3B...

    McGuinty's government doesn't have to do this, but they are.

    -----------------------------

    Umm, duh yeah!!!! I never talked about McGuinty and it wasn't what I was addressing. But yeah of course the McGuinty government doesn't have to do it but they are. What's your point?
  86. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    R. P. from nowhere, writes: THE LAST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAW MEMBERS DO NOT MAKE 70 DOLLARS AN HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE BE SO STUPID TO BELIEVE THIS?
    Posted 20/12/08 at 11:59 AM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ================================

    R.P. you are wasting your time.

    These COns are a lynch mob out for blood. ........
  87. Paul Bayer from Canada writes: I saw a Dodge /Chrysler commercial with their latest promo. They had costomers at every showroom vehicle talking to sales people and traffic in and out of showroom doors... Wow!
    ' Buy the car your neighbour builds '.... Last time I checked, no cars built in BC, Alberta,Sask, Manitoba...
    Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai all seem to employ local people at their dealership . They should share any Govt $$ as much as big 3 .
  88. live in the country and actually have internet from Moose Jaw, Canada writes: Why don't we let two of them go and keep the most solvent one?
  89. DON BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - YO , R.P. ; Watch your blood pressure, anyone with a brain can figure out that $70.oo /hour is BS.

    - It's like when you go to a dealership and try to find out the real cost!

    ~

    - What really scares me is that these '$70.oo/hour believers' may be able to vote....

    ~
  90. sam stone from Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: THE LAST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAW MEMBERS DO NOT MAKE 70 DOLLARS AN HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE BE SO STUPID TO BELIEVE THIS?
    ================================================
    How do you know? You proved on the last board that you have considerable trouble with the English language. Are you on shutdown form your bolt tightening job?
  91. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa

    I was being more facitious than not

    We can't have it both ways, accuse him of not playing nice and not doing what the majority of Canadians want by working with the opposition and providing all these bailouts and stimulus. Then in the next breath say he is wrong to do what the majority of Canadians represented by the coalition want and limit the stimulus and bailouts to only where it will really help. It does not matter which way he goes the majority of Canadians are represented by the coalition and this is what they want or the government falls. So what does it matter which government spends the same cash in the same way?
  92. Wayne H from Canada writes: Might as well kiss this money good bye..........
  93. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Well southern Ontario I hope that you do not lose sight that this aid is a contribution by the the gov'ts of Canada and Ontario (a have not province so they what they give will be made up in transfer payments you can bet on that) is being made from ALL Canadians so I would expect and hope the residents recognize and appreciate that.
  94. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Paul Bayer from Canada writes: I saw a Dodge /Chrysler commercial with their latest promo. They had costomers at every showroom vehicle talking to sales people and traffic in and out of showroom doors... Wow!
    ' Buy the car your neighbour builds '.... Last time I checked, no cars built in BC, Alberta,Sask, Manitoba...
    Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai all seem to employ local people at their dealership . They should share any Govt $$ as much as big 3 .

    ----------------------------------

    So are you saying the Dodge/Chysler dealership in your area is importing salesmen?
  95. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    Citizens, how long are we going to put up with the COns lynch mob tactics ??
  96. ali mansur from etobicoke, Canada writes: Mr. Harper, thanks for wasting $4B.. And I hear you're going to spend another $30B per year for the next two or three years as well...

    Harper is putting his stamp of approval on this. I don't hear him blaming the coalition for this, so don't put words into his mouth.
  97. dreaming of a green party majority from Canada writes: If a Toronto cop can get $65 an hour watching a worker dig a hole in the road I guess I am willing to give my hard earned tax dollars to big three workers to make $70 to build cars I don't want. The world makes a lot more sense today!
  98. TERRI R from Kimberley, Canada writes: This has been in the making since NAFTA, one might look up the NorthAmerican Competitiveness Councils(SPP2005) Report of 2007, you will see why much of this is happening. In order for a NorthAmerican Union to happen we in Canada & the US will be dragged down so as when the NorthAmerican Union transpires, the monetary difference will not be so large as to be totally detrimental to Mexicans. I have been telling people to invest in the Mexican Peso and as soon as they see one iota of movement near the end of 2009, PULL OUT.
  99. Jesse Winger from Calgary Doubts Harper, Canada writes: Too many Conservative supporters are doing their Happy Dance on the backs of laid off auto workers - it's sickening, really. Conservatives seem to be the biggest threat to Canadian unity with Harper in command...
  100. A. M. from toronto, Canada writes: this situation is quite the dilemma... on the one hand, it can be argued that these companies deserve nothing for being lazy and resistant to change and for offering poor quality products. toyota and honda are in great shape and the reason is simple - they make good cars that people want. they are offer FUEL EFFICIENT cars, a concept that is completely lost on american car companies. they thought that the 75 cent litre of gas would last forever, thus sustaining the market for the hummers, SUVs and trucks which form a large (and profitable) portion of their product offerings.

    on the other hand, if the government was to let GM and Chrysler fail because of their own stupidity and mistakes, this would have a huge impact on the economy. there would be scores of people turning to the government for support, which would result in a huge spike in payouts in welfare and EI.
  101. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: You know, I support the bail out on this and I think Harper finally did the right thing. Why so many conservative supporters want to blame the bailout on others is beyond me. Surely if such a strong willed individual as Harper wanted to, he would go kicking and screaming to his grave refusing to offer a bailout. Are you conservatives so sure that your leader is a mindless drone that can't make up his own mind or what?

    Time will tell if this was a good move or not, but I for one think the alternative would be far worse.
  102. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: My sincere condolences to vitrually all posters above. It sure must be hell trying to live with yourselves burdened by all the negativity and lack of financial knowledge on economics and concern for your fellow man. --- $pare u$ your $anctimoniou$ attitude, Don, we're the one$ paying and that is more than enough. --- No more taxe$ for bailout$ of the obe$e. Demand lower taxe$ for the too $mall to be $aved now. Mobilize. Thi$ i$ the time for action on behalf of the true needy one$, i.e. mo$t of u$, citizen$. We are running out of time, being $eemingly governed by the wor$t.
  103. Jack Sprat from Calgary, Canada writes: Vern, stop trying to rally the workers. Most of these posters are not Conservatives out for blood. They are taxpayers baying because they forsee monstrous bailouts (this $4 billion is just the start) and then the CAW stands up and says that they won't give an inch.

    It is the stupidity of the CAW that caused this backlash against the union, not any particular ideological stance. Otherwise, we would just be all talking about how the bailout is a bad idea in general, instead of attacking the union specifically. I seriously doubt the UAW is taking this kind of heat.
  104. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    DON BARTA from Canada writes: -
    - YO , R.P. ; Watch your blood pressure, anyone with a brain can figure out that $70.oo /hour is BS.
    - It's like when you go to a dealership and try to find out the real cost!
    ~
    - What really scares me is that these '$70.oo/hour believers' may be able to vote.... ~
    Posted 20/12/08 at 12:13 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    =====================================

    Don do you mean the cost of a new vehicle in the showrooom ??

    Most provinces require the MSRP to be clearly identified in new car showrooms. It's on all sales and lease ageements. Unless it's a demo or used.

    The real cost ?? When you buy your next cheap toaster at Walmart ask the clerk what the store's cost is and then decide what you want to pay.

    Go ahead and try it.

    Mind you I bargain frequently. Not everyone has the stomach for it though. Nor can they do it successfully.
  105. Jason Roy from Central Nova - After October 14th AKA STILL Peter Mackay Country, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Jason Roy from Central Nova - After October 14th AKA STILL Peter Mackay Country, Canada writes: Correct me if I'm wrong but the article I read said the Ontario government was contributing 1.3B...

    McGuinty's government doesn't have to do this, but they are.

    -----------------------------

    Umm, duh yeah!!!! I never talked about McGuinty and it wasn't what I was addressing. But yeah of course the McGuinty government doesn't have to do it but they are. What's your point?

    ---------------------------------------

    My point is I'm laughing at the posters flailing on Harper for this but overlooking McGuinty's contribution to this...conveniently perhaps?

    Or is that it...CPC bailout bad; Liberal/Coalition bailout good?

    As I said above, my daily routine isn't going to come to a crashing halt because if this...either we were going to get it from Harper or we were going to get it from the coalition if Harper was defeated earlier...there was no in between.
  106. Pierre-Yves P from Canada writes:
    Disgusting news.
  107. david blaine from Canada writes: I think the bailout is not about saving GM and/or Chrysler or at a minimum saving jobs in canada.

    I think it is about providing a controlled landing to a changing economy.

    Many on here talk of how GM and Chrysler build cars nobody wants, and thus why are we bailing them out. Others talk about the unfair wages, and thus why are we bailing them out.

    I think we need to look at how societies have evolved to note how as societies become 'affluent' they shift their 'menial' (as in socially no longer viewed as desirable) jobs to societies that are at an earlier stage of development. To just look at North American recent history, did anybody cry when companies like RCA disappeared? Did anybody cry when IBM stopped making personal computers? Two things can happen in a globalized economy: the 'first nation' company can lead in the design and engineering of products and produce elsewhere, or they can attempt to compete on brand or quality and charge a higher price for the premium product (needed due to higher costs). (of course you could do both).

    So, what is the future of the d3? I would not say they have established premium brands, so that avenue is out (for now). Design houses? They have the expertise if only they could bring it to produce 'wow factor' final designs. This is possible. To compete with the world market, they will then have to shift the building of the vehicles to cheaper jurisdictions.

    The inevitable problem is that locally 'what happens when you have outsourced everything' and globally 'what happens when there are no more 'less developed' jurisdictions to shift production to? THe answer: look what happened to Rome when it outsourced its armies.
  108. Charles Brown from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: The three big are this situation as a direct result of poor business practices, incompetent management and the UNIONS!!!! All three factors have EQUAL SHARE. If unions continue to think it is their legitimate right to expect US$73 an hour for their work, we as taxpayers, will be looking at sinking many times $4 Billion in this crap industry. Instead of wasting the money on dead wood, the government should have used the $4 Billion as incentives for Toyota, Honda, Hyundai to build more properly run factories in North America.
  109. truth betold from Canada writes: Vern, you calling out the fiscally conservative lynch mob? Name a time and place. I'll get together my people. You can scour the bean sprout counter at the local deli, or the hackey sack tournament, or the local library that's hosting readings from the Communist Manifesto.

    We'll get together at your convenience.
  110. phineas freekinstone from out there somewhere, Canada writes: so us cowpoop boots,rednecked,bible punching,illiterite,rigpig,hillbillies gonna bail the latte swilling upper canada tax sucking know -it -alls again or is that again and again?
  111. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ......if Stevie were really clever, master tactician that he is.......he may wish that he had allowed the Coalition of the All Too-Willing to wear all this inevitable bailout stuff.....lay low in the reeds, and come roaring back to a majority government when human nature sets in and the financial stool hits the fan....but guile got in the way of common sense......pity!.....
  112. Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes:
    Harper must resign! He's just an NDP hack and a schill for the unions!

    Ignatieff...now there's a real man. He won't grovel to Jack Layton and we need him as PM, ASAP, say on January 28 2009.
  113. R M from Canada writes: Can someone check the lost and found box in the House of Commons, Stephen Harper is missing a couple of very small round objects.
  114. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Well southern Ontario I hope that you do not lose sight that this aid is a contribution by the the gov'ts of Canada and Ontario (a have not province so they what they give will be made up in transfer payments you can bet on that) is being made from ALL Canadians so I would expect and hope the residents recognize and appreciate that.
    Posted 20/12/08 at 12:14 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ====================================

    Just a reminder there are 14 million Ontario residents of whom 14 million pay federal taxes in one form or another. In the GTA alone there are 6 million people who pay taxes. In the auto and direct parts business in Ontario alone there are 200,000 workers who pay federal taxes. Auto assemblers pay BIG federal income taxes.

    On the other hand Sask has slightly over 1 million population.

    More people ride the TTC in the daily rush than live in Sask. All of them pay federal taxes.

    So do you still think Sask and the west are paying for this all by their lonesome ?

    I hear farmers get rebates on their fuel ?
  115. Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: So whats the problem with a deficit. Life goes on. I do hope they get significant concessions from the auto workers.
  116. Charles Brown from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: THE LAST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAW MEMBERS DO NOT MAKE 70 DOLLARS AN HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE BE SO STUPID TO BELIEVE THIS?

    * Posted 20/12/08 at 11:59 AM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ===============================

    Maybe you forgot to add the gravy train, extended health benefits for extended families, holidays, sick leaves, job banks, training, unions meetings, union gatherings, union picnics, pensions etc., etc., etc.,
  117. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: So as it turns out, you can teach an old Harper new tricks.
  118. Paul F. from AB, Canada writes: Money well wasted - typical government.

    Jim Rogers on government bailouts - the policies of central banks and politicians are turning what would have been a recession into a new great depression.

    Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
  119. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: phineas freekinstone...that's just how it works for real.....it's just soooo Sisyphus......
  120. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Charles Brown from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes:
    Maybe you forgot to add the gravy train, extended health benefits for extended families, holidays, sick leaves, job banks, training, unions meetings, union gatherings, union picnics, pensions etc., etc., etc.,

    --------------------------

    When you tell someone what you make an hour, do you include all those things? Be honest, even working the McDonald counter you get vacation, holidays, etc....
  121. Paul Bayer from Canada writes: If Dodge/Chrysler dealers are as busy as their TV commercial reflects, they would not be needing bailout $$.
    Whatever vehicle is bought in Canada(irrelevant where it is built) still gets charged taxes and still needs service and parts and autobody repairs and insurance . A lot of periphrial jobs abound.
    I'm afraid handout's to the Big 3 will be tax $$ down the drain as they will still be in dire straits down the road.
    If the $$ went to retraining people for other job skills and careers I could then buy into the idea.

  122. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...where's the great Liberal Hope Iggy?.....has he yet broken his self-imposed vow of silence?......
  123. Ray Luft from Mississauga, Canada writes: Let Nortel, scientists and engineers go to hell but bail out the Americans. At least this saves me my annual contribution to the Conservative party.
  124. sam stone from Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes:
    Harper must resign! He's just an NDP hack and a schill for the unions!

    Ignatieff...now there's a real man. He won't grovel to Jack Layton and we need him as PM, ASAP, say on January 28 2009.
    ============================================
    If he was half the man Harper is, he wouldn't have signed off on the coalition. He backstabbed his own people and you want him to lead. Go stick your head out in the Edmonton cold for a little brain clearing.
  125. Red Harris from Canada writes: Incentives to buy cars!! With impending layoffs all over the economy -this seems like another hair-brained idea out of a government out of touch with reality. It is increasingly clear that Harper has nothing to offer and should resign.
  126. Jack Sprat from Calgary, Canada writes: david blaine, I think you are right when you're talking about a controlled change. And funds to that end are undoubtedly required.

    I also agree with your conclusion and believe we have to start well before we've outsourced everything; I really don't believe you can have a healthy North American economy (and society) without manufacturing, which is the direction we are obviously going. We need to seriously look at some of these trade deals and our own internal taxes and regulations and better protect industry.
  127. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: What a load of crap. They make crappy cars and over pay their workers... 74 bucks an hour!!

    I want a bailout!

    Let Quebec separate and take Ontario with them... see if they can make an auto that will keep the wheels on.

    I guess the coalition won.

    What a load of crap.

    10% of us population so we are effectively giving 40 billion in the same ratio.
  128. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Paul Bayer from Canada writes:
    If the $$ went to retraining people for other job skills and careers I could then buy into the idea.

    ---------------------------

    I seriously doubt you would. I have a feeling you would be complaining about how they should have been retraining themselves all along, or how they should have been saving for a rainy day, or why isn't the government retraining you for a new job..........
  129. phineas freekinstone from out there somewhere, Canada writes: Zando Lee.........He didnt though did he?........maybe the man really cares what happens to our country?.......Giving the coalition of greed a key to the vault is just too vulgar to think about, Years of breathing fresh mountain air tends to keep the mind refreshed
  130. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Red Harris from Canada writes: Incentives to buy cars!! With impending layoffs all over the economy -this seems like another hair-brained idea out of a government out of touch with reality. It is increasingly clear that Harper has nothing to offer and should resign.
    =======================================
    The no nothings are getting up out of bed.
  131. L.B. MURRAY from !! from Canada writes: R. Carriere writes :

    Perhaps this is a pre-emptive strike against 2 companies who have plans to enter the North American market place in the next two years.

    If you haven't heard of them, you will shortly. One is called TATA from India and the other is GEELY from China. ( we all laughed at Honda/Toyota in the 70's..)
    __________________________________

    The TATA from India.... Some people were laughing their heads off when I first mentioned this TATA a couple of months ago.... No doubt in my mind that this TATA will be RENAMED....for the North America Market....

    You're also right about auto parts being manufactured in Mexico at a fraction of the cost...

    Meanwhile, we have to follow the lead of Mr Bush who decided he wanted to leave on a ''good note'' and give billions to the auto industry while the next prezzz will have to deal with the mess.... and so will Mr. Harper in Canada ....

    -
  132. J M M from Canada writes: If you don't like it look to the Liberals, NDP and Bloc to blame they are the parties screaming 'spend, spend and spend'.
  133. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes:
    10% of us population so we are effectively giving 40 billion in the same ratio.

    -----------------------------

    Wait, when did Regina become a city in Ontario? You do realise that the 4 billion isn't all fed dollars right? You did read the article, right?
  134. Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes:
    Once again Steven Harper sells out the West and caves to the NDP...the Great Right Hope was born in...Toronto! And he seems determined to dig his political grave there. Preston Manning should come out of retirement and bring the Reform Party back to life, the Conservatives have turned to CRAP.
  135. DON BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - Come on Vern, Buying a new car / truck at a dealership is about as much fun as a root canal at a dentist......
    - It doesn't compare with buying a toster at Wal-Mart where the price is posted on the item. When I bought my last toster, the clerk didn't have to see her manager for an OK on the price and I didn't get overcharged for extras and overpriced add-ons or pushed to buy insurance, paint protection, seat spray, etc, etc, etc. When the receipt came out of the till there wern't any mistakes in the company's favour either.

    - Anyway, have a nice day - I got to go shovel about 3 feet of Global Warming out of my driveway.....
  136. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: bedford capital writes, 'We're better off to allow a pre packaged bankruptcy with these funds and then back a new canadian company. I'm sure Magna could emerge as a car producer with the current GM & Chrysler cdn assets.'
    ________________________________________________________

    Yes, exactly right. There are plenty of automakers and parts makers around who can employ Canadians in good jobs and turn out high quality vehicles that people want to buy. Let these bloated and ill-manged companies go into bankruptcy, replace the executive and underperforming managers, open up the collective agreements, and THEN ask the government for financial help.

    The current approach will lock in all the factors that have brought these automakers to failure. It will also guarantee that taxpayers will be individually paying hundred and possibly thousands of dollars more in taxes for cars they will never drive.
  137. phineas freekinstone from out there somewhere, Canada writes: Zando.........i think iggy is still riding around out west in his white horse (with a budget rental sticker on its butt).
  138. Vern McPherson from Canada writes: Jack Sprat from Calgary, Canada writes: Vern, stop trying to rally the workers. Most of these posters are not Conservatives out for blood. They are taxpayers baying because they forsee monstrous bailouts (this $4 billion is just the start) and then the CAW stands up and says that they won't give an inch. It is the stupidity of the CAW that caused this backlash against the union, not any particular ideological stance. Otherwise, we would just be all talking about how the bailout is a bad idea in general, instead of attacking the union specifically. I seriously doubt the UAW is taking this kind of heat. Posted 20/12/08 at 12:23 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment =============================== Rally the workers ?? Are you kidding me jackquie ?? I know the players here. I know they sign in and out of threads with different names and make the same point and express the same point of view no matter where they go. There is a large black solid line between ordinary taxpayer concern for this and plain COns union busting jacquie and if you had your smarts about you - you's rcognize it too. We could start with the 75 dollar an hour thingy. That IS a lie but it makes very good negative PR doesn't it ?? As far as rallying the troopen I'd venture a guess the COns party are the champions at that initiative. Say what ? And dear to the OCns hearts all over the land is busting unions isn't it ?? You think a character like Sam Stone posting here is a concerned taxpayer jacquie ?? 'cause if you do ......... that's real funny.
  139. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: What a load of crap. They make crappy cars and over pay their workers... 74 bucks an hour!!

    I want a bailout!

    Let Quebec separate and take Ontario with them... see if they can make an auto that will keep the wheels on.

    I guess the coalition won.

    What a load of crap.

    10% of us population so we are effectively giving 40 billion in the same ratio.
    ========================================
    Not all of Ontario, Toronto and everything east. The rest of the province actually has alot more in common with the West than it does with Toronto or Ottawa.
  140. What's Next? from Canada writes: What about forestry?
  141. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    ....off don ....
  142. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: What's Next? from Canada writes: What about forestry?

    -----------------------------

    Maybe you should wait for a news story about the forestry. This one is about the auto industry, fewer trees, more cars.
  143. Tesa Rant from Canada writes: I think McGuinty should try to buy a piece of American auto industry with that money outright. They could buy Chrysler that price. Chrysler was sold for $7.4B in the last round, how much is it worth now. I know that their health care liability is their major issue for American companies but that is not the case in Canada. Americans have 10 times Canadian population and they have invested only17B$ or as Canadians we want to make sure that we don't subsidize American health care liability problem .
  144. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from Canada writes: Rally the workers ?? Are you kidding me jackquie ?? I know the players here. I know they sign in and out of threads with different names and make the same point and express the same point of view no matter where they go.
    =============================================
    Here we again!! Vern not wanting face reality. The majority of Canadians have had it with the stupid Big Fat Boss Hog union types. They aren't too thrilled about you 'living in mommy's basement' types like yourself either!!!!
  145. R. P. from nowhere, writes: TAX ME TO DEATH...SHOW ME WHERE I MAKE 74 BUCKS AN HOUR! SHOW ME! WHERE IS THE PROOF? WANT TO SEE MY PAYCHEQUE? NOWHERE DOES IT SAY 74 BUCKS an HOUR! STUPID STUPID STUPID PEOPLE!
  146. Tor Hill from Canada writes: It is a bit sad that we are bailing out an industry that plays a big role in global warming, proven by science. I still can't get it right. We are throwing big money at a problem, not by solving the problem but by exacerbating it. I still can't get it right. We're spending all the money that had to be spent, but we're spending it the wrong way; that's a bit closer. It must warm GW deniers' hearts just a bit. They can't have it both ways. They can't see a cherished part of their lifestyle go down the tubes, not just yet.
  147. Plain Joe from Canada writes: I am relieved that the big 3 got the money. Great news. Too bad anti labour, anti-union posters!
  148. ALASTAIR JAMES BERRY from NANAIMO BC, Canada writes: It seems totally unwise to prop up a dying industry or one that,by force of circumstance cannot compete. Nanaimo had over 30 very profitable coal mines, supplying coal to the commercial Pacific maritime fleets but with the advent of cheap oil from Long Beach, California the industry died completely. Would subsidies have averted the catastrophe that hit the Coal Masters and the miners? No. At the end of WW11 Oshawa Ontario was almost the LEATHER CAPITAL of the world and Canada was the leading exporter of leather boots and shoes. Cheap sneakers undercut the leather footwear business and all the tanneries round Oshawa vanished until today there is not the slightest trace. The only salvation I can see for the auto industry, given that this depression has cut into virtually every citizens resources(EXCEPT POLITICIANS, THE MILITARY, the CIVIL SERVICE and the POLICE) is to convert our auto facilities to producing tanks, L.A,V.s and Helicopters for our Armed Forces. Subsidize conversion of the facilities, Make sure all our C.A.W. are gainfully employed. With the projected 3000,000 unemployed National Defence should have no difficulty raising an army by the time the equipment comes off the line.
  149. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: TAX ME TO DEATH...SHOW ME WHERE I MAKE 74 BUCKS AN HOUR! SHOW ME! WHERE IS THE PROOF? WANT TO SEE MY PAYCHEQUE? NOWHERE DOES IT SAY 74 BUCKS an HOUR! STUPID STUPID STUPID PEOPLE!
    ===========================================
    It includes all the ridiculous benefits that everyone else DOES NOT enjoy. Are there any special excersise you have to do so your bolt tightening arm doesn't get out of shape over your extended brake where YOU ARE STILL GETTING OVER 90% OF YOUR WAGES. Bone Head.
  150. phineas freekinstone from out there somewhere, Canada writes: Verns .......vast knowledge of other posters indicates that he spends alot of time here......why? 1. he has no life 2.he has no job 3.he is pissed because there was no stimulus for welfare bums like him.......
  151. Paul Bayer from Canada writes: I do support career retraining and embrace the notion and $$ committed to it as I have utilized such myself to shift careers . It can be achieved by many and perhaps get one into a more fullfilled job/career.
    Time to log off as I do not want to turn into a troll .

  152. Western Weasel from Canada writes: For Western Canadians the solution lies here:

    http://www.westcan.org/

    The sooner, the better..........
  153. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: The CAW is now the most hated organization in Canada.
    Try a little humility you union hacks.
    ---
    Plain Joe from Canada writes: I am relieved that the big 3 got the money. Great news. Too bad anti labour, anti-union posters!
    ---
    Be sure to thank each and every Canadian for propping up the big 3. Canada is anti-union, they're anti-greed, and that's all the CAW is - greed
  154. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: My previous comment... U.S = us

    we have 10% of the USA population - so 4 billion from us is like 40 billion to them - so why not 10% of theirs? 17 billion (20 billion cdn or so) so why not 2 billion?

    And... theirs is contingent upon them restructuring.

    OURS? Well - another NDP/LIBERAL handout by the conservatives, no less!

    The coalition won.

    whoopee.

    (what a load of crap)
  155. Vern McPherson from Canada writes:
    carrierre, LB Murray, can I remind you both auto parts can be manufactured anywhere other than the US or Canada extremely cheap. Bengledesh would likely be the cheapest.

    The question is how do you run a just in time manufacturing operation with parts shpped in form parts unknown ?? Delayed by snow storms, train wrecks, ships sinking , tornadoes and all the other neat thingys that happen with long distance travel ??

    Or have the assembly plants stock parts and pay more ???

    Which do you think is the low cost way ? Just in time delivery form fairly nearby parts plants or cheap from overseas ? And Mexico is a long way off in the parts business isn't it ?
  156. Jack Sprat from Calgary, Canada writes: Vern, I've been around these boards more than long enough to know that left-wingers have multiple aliases as well. There is a huge amount of background noise on these boards with too much copy/paste from talking points.

    That $73 an hour is accurate - for the U.S. - and the UAW has agreed to concessions. All good. What the actual figure is for Canada, I don't know. As pointed out in another article, the health care costs would be lower, but its still very high.

    The CAW saying that compensation not on the table at all is ludicrous. I know waving the hammer and sickle and yelling 'workers unite' is fun, but eventually you and others will have to recognize that. You may refuse but the CAW won't have that luxury or they will lose everything.
  157. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Freddie, I do not tighten bolts. I operate 7 CNC machines that Mill Crankshafts. I went to school to learn. You are the bonehead.
  158. Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: To Comments Closed etc; To you my specific condloences. Please reread your own comments and tell me what positive attitude you espouse. While the announceements by the Federal and Prov. Govts may give the r results they hope or not is immaterial. This is the decision of ALL the political parties (Libs & NDP were calling for this a long time ago and was part of the coalition platform). It will help, at least in the short term, many workers in all fields in Ontario as well as the rest of Canada to weather a terrific economic storm we are all going to face.
    My point was that maybe we should have a little consideration for others and hope for the future rather than the negativity expressed by so many posters.
    MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
  159. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Gotta love that western idealism. Used to be 'Bob's barn burned down and he's fallen on hard times. Let's go put up a new barn for poor old Bob and bring some food to tide him over the winter.'

    Now it's. 'Hey Bob's barn burned down, and he's fallen on hard times. Well heck old Bob should have known better than to try and farm, let's run him out of town so maybe he'll find work elsewhere as a grocery store clerk'

    How times have changed.
  160. GlobeandMail Reader from Canada writes:
    If a company is not doing well, let it die. Companies go bankrupt EVERYDAY!

    Many of you guys and the goverment are so stupid, It's NO big deal. Auto workers can work for Toyota/Honda/Nissan, and we could get better cars!!!
  161. Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes: Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: The CAW is now the most hated organization in Canada.
    -----

    Make that the 2nd most hated. I'll be throwing my shoes at that UNION SCHILL - RED STEVE HARPER and his COMUNSERVATIVES.
  162. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Freddie, I do not tighten bolts. I operate 7 CNC machines that Mill Crankshafts. I went to school to learn. You are the bonehead.
    =================================================
    I know a few people that work for tool & die makers and marble shops that operate CNC machines and they don't get full pay when the shop shuts down. You asked where the $70/hr comes from. Who said anything about school? Guess what, the marble shop doesn't have a pension plan or RSPs for that matter. They don't get tons of vacation time or family days or unlimited sick days. And, CNC machines arenot that hard to operate anymore.
  163. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: It's like Bonus Day at Sears: I thought I was buying a Toyota Matrix, and it turns out that I'm getting a piece of a Pontiac Phartmobile as well !!
  164. Tor Hill from Canada writes: The bailout is being used, ludicrously, as leverage for getting even more concessions from workers.
  165. Rick Brontus from Edmonton, Canada writes: Exactly how does Harper get to pledge or spend mega-money when he's prorogued parliament? He's writing govt cheques without any accountability to taxpayers or parliament. Parliament sits silent and locked up through all this.

    Shouldn't a budget come first before the spending? Where's the 'plan' in all this bailout mania?

    At least in the US, it's a fully functioning administration that announced its bailout plan.

    Or are we just winging it here in Canada?
  166. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes: Make that the 2nd most hated. I'll be throwing my shoes at that UNION SCHILL - RED STEVE HARPER and his COMUNSERVATIVES.
    =========================================
    Would those be your high heals? If you think Steve sold you out, get real. He is doing what he has to to keep Canada from enduring years under Bob Rae and Jack Layton. Open your mind.
  167. Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes: sam stone from Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes:
    Harper must resign! He's just an NDP hack and a schill for the unions!

    Ignatieff...now there's a real man. He won't grovel to Jack Layton and we need him as PM, ASAP, say on January 28 2009.
    ============================================
    If he was half the man Harper is, he wouldn't have signed off on the coalition. He backstabbed his own people and you want him to lead. Go stick your head out in the Edmonton cold for a little brain clearing.

    -------------

    Harper is the one who has backstabbed his own people...but you're right, maybe Jack Layton should be PM because he's calling all the shots anyways. Like him or hate him, Jack's got the biggest pair in Ottawa.
  168. True North from Canada writes: Harper before election: 'no bail-out'

    Harper after election: 'get your free money here'
  169. John Lake from Calgary, Canada writes: As a retired Auto employee. Thank you, thank you, thank you. By the way $70.00 an hr includes the legacy costs for the retirees as well. Please get that through your heads. A new CAW employee starts at $14.00 an hour not $28.00. Last but not least 1 out of every 7 people in North America work directly or indirectly in the Auto industry. Funny how the West didn't wnat the bailout bout the East did. Just another way to split the great country of Canada up. P.S. If not clear on what the Legacy Costs mean do your own research and look it up.
  170. Mark From BC from Canada writes: To those Canadians sickened by the thought of the Federal government performing a violent financial rape on them to steal funds to subsidize the privaleged CAW members, there is a means of opting out of paying.

    If you have a paid off house, and you own an Japanese/German engineered auto, you do not require any more income than $24,000 per year for a married couple. If you are in this situation, go on strike and refuse to earn more than $24,000 per household. This way you become non taxable and you avoid being one of the idiots that is enslaved by the goverment, and bled dry to maintain the privalage of a insignificant minority (CAW workers).

    To those who are sickened by the government rape of the productive poor, who are unwilling to become non-taxable, you can always hope for a violent and bloody revolution.
  171. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Tell me what you do Freddie.
  172. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes: sam stone from Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes:
    Harper must resign! He's just an NDP hack and a schill for the unions!

    Ignatieff...now there's a real man. He won't grovel to Jack Layton and we need him as PM, ASAP, say on January 28 2009.

    ..............................................................................................................

    Now there is a Bush supporter. Count Iggy. Best to throw the high heels at him isn't it?
  173. R S from Canada writes: I would hate to be the P.M. on the clock who refused the 'loans' and then had the industry collapse. What a way to go down. Steven Harper had no choice. He couldn't let 400 000 people be affected by it.

    Just a note, on the shop floor of WAP..............1) we make $32/hr 2) we're probably going to lose the 3rd shift. The writing is on the wall. For those of you who are not aware, our contract still stays in place through all of this. Within that contract, when a restructuring or outsourcing issue occurs, buy-outs occur to senior and junior workers. So if your blood isn't boiling, I'm sure it is now. It will be extremely compensatory.

    We hope both management and union bring a restructuring package back to the government that is satisfactory to all involved.
  174. Fred Smith from Canada writes: All you workers out there making $40 per hour actually cost your employer about $70 per hour after adding in benefit costs so when you quote auto worker pay at $70 per hour that includes benefit costs. Just making it real people.
  175. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Freddie, I do not tighten bolts. I operate 7 CNC machines that Mill Crankshafts. I went to school to learn. You are the bonehead.
    ==================================
    Furthermore R.P. Even if you did make $70/hr, you are not the problem. The problem is the bolt tighteners, janitors and shippers making outrageous amounts of money. If you are a CNC operator, you are skilled and deservr to be rewarded. The unskilled labour should be compensated accordingly!!! Probelm is, unions think that unskilled labour should be paid handsomely.
  176. Paul F. from ON, Canada writes: Where else can high school drop-outs make $74 per hour?!
  177. My 2 Cents from Canada writes: Excellent. The government is stepping in, where the moronic consumer failed to.

    The most unreliable cars I have ever owned;

    96 Honda Civic and a 1991 Nissan Sentra.

    The import companies are genius marketers that have fooled the sheep into believing they're number one. If it weren't so sad, it would be a hilarious commentary on the stupidity of the average North American.
  178. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Tell me what you do Freddie.
    ==========================================
    Bean counter. Boring, but when you can interpret the Income Tax Act, let's talk.
  179. My 2 Cents from Canada writes: Paul F....probably where you work....but they'd be your boss.
  180. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: Last time I checked Mexico is part of North America. How many billions is the government of Mexico committing to save the Detroit three? Are Canadian taxpayers just subsidizing the eventual exportation of these jobs as well? Why don't we give Hyundai, Honda and Kia 4 billion to build plants here? That way we can spread the risk if the D 3 still end up failing.
  181. Carole George from Edmonton, Canada writes: Paul F. from ON, Canada writes: Where else can high school drop-outs make $74 per hour?!

    -------

    Unfortunately, lots of high school drop out druggies make that kind of money in the Alberta Oilfields. I just hope RED STEVE HARPER has the stones not to bail those bums out as well.
  182. Reid Kaplin from Canada writes: Paul F. from ON, Canada writes: Where else can high school drop-outs make $74 per hour?!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Selling dope to our kids, Paul.
  183. Daniel Dawson from Canada, Canada writes: The fact is for many years benefits have been the main thrust of contract talks and the companies have always said its not affordable but have signed to avoid strikes. This has simply pushed the day of reckoning back well its here and the UAW,CAW can't say they didn't know ask for the world and be careful about it. Any bean counter could figure out that sooner or later it would catch up. Read all about the steel industry or Air Canada because its real this is what happens.
  184. GlobeandMail Reader from Canada writes:
    You guys just don't get the point.

    I mean, what WILL THEY DO with so many billions???

    Keep making garbage cars nobody's gonna buy? Then after 3 months, they come back and beg for money again?

    W T H ! Let them die.
  185. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Freddie, there are no more 'janitors', that has been contracted out. Basically there is no more shipping either. Penske Corporation took that over in the Ford plants in Windsor. Also, my plant has already downsized to half of the employees that we had even 2 years ago.
  186. Doug Nenzel from Victoria, Canada writes: These comments seem to be polarized - people for or against the bailouts, but few people are questioning the efficicay of bailouts in general (look to AIG for an example). If you support the bailout please explain what you think it will accomplish exactly.
    I do not support throwing good money after bad. Do we not have free martkets? There are many businesses locally that are in the process of failing yet we are not bailing them out - we don't do that because they are failing for a reason. Perhaps tax dollars are better spent where they will provide a positive return (what a concept).
    Can someone please detail how exactly this money is going to ensure GM and Chrysler will be viable going forward and how it will ensure no job loss going forward?
    I didn't think so. Kiss the money goodbye.
  187. GlobeandMail Reader from Canada writes:

    Reid Kaplin from Canada writes: Paul F. from ON, Canada writes: Where else can high school drop-outs make $74 per hour?!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Selling dope to our kids, Paul.

    -------------------------------------

    Should be: Selling dope to those high school drop-outs.
  188. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Wow Freddie, That was the first thing I thought of. I know you beancounters well. They dumped half of our workforce. But...they are all still working.
  189. Right Said Fred from Canada writes: Now that the tax payer money is to be burned away, I say the time has come for the CAW to pay up in their own way. We are going to have rollbacks of wages and benefits. This is going to put them more in line with honda and toyota. No more union bozos with high school or less making $75hr turning screws. Same with the upper managers, you are going to take a pay reduction as well and no bonuses.
  190. Paul Byer from Canada writes: R S from Canada writes: I would hate to be the P.M. on the clock who refused the 'loans' and then had the industry collapse. What a way to go down. Steven Harper had no choice. He couldn't let 400 000 people be affected by it. Just a note, on the shop floor of WAP..............1) we make $32/hr 2) we're probably going to lose the 3rd shift. The writing is on the wall. For those of you who are not aware, our contract still stays in place through all of this. Within that contract, when a restructuring or outsourcing issue occurs, buy-outs occur to senior and junior workers. So if your blood isn't boiling, I'm sure it is now. It will be extremely compensatory. We hope both management and union bring a restructuring package back to the government that is satisfactory to all involved. .............................................................................................................. Very honest and realistic. Some of the recent packages at GM were cash incentives of over $100,000.00 and a $35,000 car voucher to boot. Don't blame the workers. I would have taken it too. Your post is the same thinking as the auto workers that I know. I also believe that the majority of thinking Canadians, regardless of party affiliation, hope that the auto workers don't lose their jobs and are all for the bail out with concessions. Without them, there is no purpose to the excercise. The D3 must be competitive or they are history regardless of what anyone thinks. Basic economics. Good luck.
  191. Sherwood Forest from Edmonton, Canada writes: Mr. Harper, however, warned that today's announcement 'is not a blank cheque' for the industry, suggesting both the companies and their employees will have to make concessions.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Which Edmonton dealers are closing shop? Highest number of GM dealerships per capital!
  192. John Lake from Calgary, Canada writes: Give the CAW a break.....What the hec do you think your electrical, plumber,carpenter, bricklayer, and other UNION trades make in Canada today??? Peanuts?..I don't think so. Have them come to your house some time and find out when you get the bill. YOU will be shocked.
  193. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Freddie, there are no more 'janitors', that has been contracted out. Basically there is no more shipping either. Penske Corporation took that over in the Ford plants in Windsor. Also, my plant has already downsized to half of the employees that we had even 2 years ago.
    ===========================================
    I still think the line workers need to adjust their benefits. BTW, the edge is on my short list of next purchase. And although I think the line guys make too much now, I do not believe you guys make an inferior product. My Windstar has been near flawless for many years. My previous dodge went 300k befor I decided to get a chevy. So I don't want death to the indusrty, a little more concession. Cheers, my wife says I have to shopping now.
  194. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Right said fred...CAW members make the same as Honda and Toyota. Look it up.
  195. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Wow Freddie, That was the first thing I thought of. I know you beancounters well. They dumped half of our workforce. But...they are all still working.
    ==============================================
    Actually R.P., Ford's tax department is contracted out as well. This is a fact. Alot of the accounting function was sent to India. So the bean counters got hit too!!!
  196. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: Here Here -

    And btw -
    the worst cars I've ever had - 1985 Camaro, GMC truck 454 (glug glug) Chevy Monte Carlo - Engines, seals, transmissions, rear ends, water pumps, leaks.... you name it.
    Best cars I've had? Camry Hybrid, Honda Hybrid, Honda Accord - never ONCE in the shop except for oil changes.

    Let me buy 'big three' when they get their act together.

    Honda/Toyota are making GREAT vehicles in North America by Canadians and US workers - why CAN'T or WON'T the big Three? Because they don't have to...

    They don't need to compete - they get the money whether or not we buy their crap.

    (I'm going to duck because I can see the UAW workers getting upset after they put their dictionaries down)
  197. Paul Byer from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Right said fred...CAW members make the same as Honda and Toyota. Look it up.

    ..............................................................................................................

    No where near the same benefits and therein lies the problem. Look it up.
  198. R S from Canada writes: John Lake from Calgary.................I agree with you, thank you for the loan!

    But I do disagree with you.................in reference to Chrysler..........we didn't put the 2 tiered wage system in place so new hirees do not start at $14/hr. Also, we 'directly' affect 7 jobs and 'indirectly' affect 5..........that's a total of 12. Just clarifying for the readers.

    I hope your retirement is serving you well!
  199. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Freddie, thanks for buying a Ford. I hope you like the Edge.
  200. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: Nope - they don't. They get profit sharing when they make a profit.
  201. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Paul, You look it up. My cousin works for Toyota and enjoys the same benefits I do. He also makes the same $ as me.
  202. Paul F. from ON, Canada writes:
    R. P. from nowhere, writes: Right said fred...CAW members make the same as Honda and Toyota. Look it up.

    _______________________________________

    Perhaps, but you don't see Honda and Toyota at the trough because they sell a superior product.

    Today taxpayers are involuntarily investing in crap to ensure more crap gets produced.
  203. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Paul F, read the harbour report. Honda and Toyota are not at the trough because they haven't been here long enough. Give it time.
  204. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Paul F...perhaps? Now you agree with me? Which is it?
  205. Tom Logan from Canada writes: The dog's body is the USA. The dog's tail is Canada (and by dog, I really mean dog). In the end, does it really matter what we do in Canada, with Canadian's tax money, when all the core decisions, revenue upflows and future viabilty of these companies (er, dogs) rests with what transpires in the US? 'We've been good little tails, please throw us a bone' It is interesting to note that the majority of Americans (over 70% polled) are against auto bailouts---even most Republican politicians. Yet, what did they (er, Bush) do? Yes, $13.4B, to start. Does anyone know about polling stats for Canada? By the comments on this forum, the numbers may be similar? Also, very clever by Ford to deny funding help for now. Certainly increases one's sense of potential for their future viabilty and may swing sales their way.
  206. Wild Bill from Canada writes: When this amount is spent which will include huge buy outs for executives in the millions and the well runs dry we'll hear Taliban Jack calling for more billions to be pumped into the auto industry. If they don't provide the money he'll be the first to announce since he's not getting his way he along with his caucus will be looking to bring down the government. Then we'll see the money flowing.
    By the way why does the government hire people to wrap Christmas presents for the MP's in Ottawa??
  207. Large Double Single from Halifax, Canada writes: I am glad the government is stepping in. Those jobs are worth fighting for. If the bailout is succesfull, we get our money back with interest and we save hundreds of thousands of jobs. If it fails, well at least we tried with the support of all political parties.
    Ontario has helped support this country for decade and now they need our help. I am glad we can help.

    A maritimer.
  208. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: Here Here -

    And btw -
    the worst cars I've ever had - 1985 Camaro, GMC truck 454 (glug glug) Chevy Monte Carlo - Engines, seals, transmissions, rear ends, water pumps, leaks.... you name it.
    Best cars I've had? Camry Hybrid, Honda Hybrid, Honda Accord - never ONCE in the shop except for oil changes.

    ..............................................................................................................

    I've had 4 GM vans, all identical models over the past 11 years and I noticed that every year, the standard equipment kept getting less and less and the parts cheaper and cheaper. I am tired of major brake jobs for them every 30,000 km when my wife's hondas go 120,000 km.

    That creates another problem. The D3 'brands' image has deteriorated to the point people have no faith in them as far as quality. The Malibu is getting good reviews as are other companies select models but it is going to take time to get their names associated with quality again.

    Hopefully they can but again quality and price are the answer as the imports have shown us.

    Only obtainable with equal costs in a level playing field. No other way.
  209. R S from Canada writes: Tax me to death................just curious as I couldn't locate your other thread................Who get's a profit sharing cheque? That's in the U.S., not Canada.
  210. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: Honda and Toyota aren't at the trough and never will be as long as they believe in quality.

    Too bad the big three gave that up a long time ago.

    Remember the glory years in the 60s? Remember how no one would buy Japanese because they were crappy cars?

    My how times have changed.
  211. A Realist from Canada writes: Bottom Line - if consumers bought their products there would be no problem.
  212. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: Way back in a previous century, when I was fifteen and started looking at cars, it soon occurred to me that American cars were something other than transportation vehicles. They were couches on wheels, ego-boosters, personality horns, expressions of status, virility, youth, achievement, masculinity, etc. etc.. The European cars were basically transportation vehicles: much smaller, more efficient, with much better gas mileage. They were rational products, although not without faults. The Japanese followed the European model, but much better. Today, millions of pieces of oversize junk and many years later, I am still of pretty much the same opinion. These companies won't last five years, at the outside, without coming back begging. They incorporate many of the worst aspects of the very prosperous 20th Century in North America. They are shot full of holes, but will drive around in circles for a while yet before crashing.
  213. Tim Cares from Toronto, Canada writes: Allan McElroy from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Current CAW wages average in the vicinity of $28-$30/hour. The other 40 bucks is largely pension, which rather than being vested is paid for by the current operations. That $40 has to be addressed aggressively; there's more available there for cutting than there is in the current hourly wage. For those of you feeling sorry for those 'poor pensioners' who might lose 20-30% of their pension, please remember that most of us have lost far more than that from our RSPs, which are tied up in the market. ...

    If you haven't sold, you haven't lost anything. If you are a pensioner, you shouldn't have your retirement savings invested in something like stocks.
  214. Mark From BC from Canada writes: What Canada needs is a revolution by the proletariat.

    The parasitic Kulaks that are the CAW must be punished.

    Ship them all off to the Fort McMurray Gulag...

    It sickens me how the CAW feels entitled to rape the population of Canada. Only a strong leader like Stalin could effectively deal with the CAW.
  215. bilbo baggins from Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Harper's government does not have to do this, but they are.
    ---------------------
    Of course they have to do this - he is running a minority govt and if he wants to stay in power, he needs to present a budget that the left leaning opposition can live with. That doesnt change the fact that he did cause his own crisis before. But, for this scenario, his hands are tied. People should boycott the NA car manufacturers to speed their demise and get them off our welfare roll.
  216. Paul F. from ON, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Paul F, read the harbour report. Honda and Toyota are not at the trough because they haven't been here long enough. Give it time.
    __________________________________

    Give it time? Oh ya I forgot, it will take a long time for Honda and Toyota to match the same number of government lobbyists.

    Office space is getting expensive in Ottawa.
  217. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Mark from BC...How many millions of tax payer dollars are funding the winter olympics in BC?
  218. Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    Say has anyone heard the rumour that Steve is gonna cross the floor and join the NDP? I mean he might as well, cause he's taking his budget and bailouts right out of the NDP's policy manual and website.
  219. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Paul Dieter...no, Stevie's staying put, but he's changing the Neocon name to the Capital Socialist Party.....
  220. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    Say has anyone heard the rumour that Steve is gonna cross the floor and join the NDP? I mean he might as well, cause he's taking his budget and bailouts right out of the NDP's policy manual and website.

    ..............................................................................................................

    Nah. The NDP coalition were going to Drive By with $30 billion, throw it out the window and hope that some of it was going to stick to something where it might do some good.

    And with no Concessions. Word is they were going to give wage increases along with the bailout.

    Jack is in hiding since his ill begotten coo with the Separatists. And his popularity has fallen 7 %.
  221. Paul Byer from Canada writes: And the Bush lover Iggy is going to vote for him for the 44th time on January 27th.

    Just out.
  222. Mark From BC from Canada writes: ' Mark from BC...How many millions of tax payer dollars are funding the winter olympics in BC? '

    Too many. The property owning Kulaks from Whistler belong with the CAW Kulaks in the Fort McMurray gulag.

    Both classes have this sick idea that they are entitled to enslave everyone else to support their privileged bourgeois lifestyle. Both groups are in need of some serious correction.
  223. Common Sense Matters from Canada writes: What is this non-voting stock BS? and warrants to get those stock at that. If the taxpayers are funding this financial mess, it should be VOTING stocks. Stocks that entitle the shareholders a voice on the Board, including closing down operations.
  224. Brian NAV from Shelby Twp, United States writes: Buy a vehicle from the GM, Chrysler or Ford and support your local economy. You will reap dividends. You will see. Keep your money in North America rather than sending to our friends in Japan, Germany and Korea.
  225. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: Here is a hilarious link that might add a little levity (albeit truth) to this conversation:

    http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg

    have a good laugh... sad as it may be!
  226. Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    Let's not forget Jim Flaherty, after all he's a key player in all this:

    theglobeandmail.com
  227. Tim Cares from Toronto, Canada writes: Doug Nenzel from Victoria, Canada writes: These comments seem to be polarized - people for or against the bailouts, but few people are questioning the efficicay of bailouts in general (look to AIG for an example). If you support the bailout please explain what you think it will accomplish exactly.... The loans will allow these two companies to continue on with their restructuring that began well before the financial crisis that dried up loans, not only to these companies but many others. Unfortunately, these restructurings will result in a much smaller Big Three work force. Ultimately, unless we as North Americans start buying more of our own built cars, the Big Three will continue to get smaller as more car companies from China, India etc. launch in our countries. At some point in time, we have to realize that we are shooting ourselves in the foot by destroying our manufacturing base. It is not just auto workers but other people who build washing machines, lawnmowers and sew blue jeans who have and will continue to lose their jobs. There is only so much room for salespeople and coffee servers. This short term gain we are all after mirrors the folly of Wall St., where risks were taken with shareholder equity and ended up blowing up in the brilliant CEO's faces. Another example is all of those people who invested in Bernie Madoff's pyramid scheme. They thought they were getting an unrealistic return on their investment and look what happened. Let's smarten up and realize that nothing comes for free. If we have more people out of work or making low wages, our society suffers and we just end up paying more for social services. We cannot expect to be considered one of the best places in the world to live if every blue collar guy and gal make $15/hour with no benifits. That will destroy Canada's standard of living.
  228. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: The Big 3 workers get big $$ because they can. They had the muscle to shut down auto manufacturing - and often did - which is like shutting down the Catholic Church in Italy; and the car companies had the money to pay it. Uneducated and unskilled [as in trades] people would not otherwise be making $60,000 benefits & pension overtime. To expect to be able to extract that kind of money from an industry on the edge of bankruptcy, without enough cash or credit to last even 90 more days, is.......... well, go ahead, try it. I lived in Brantford when the local 458 and 397 helped drive Massey Ferguson and White Farm Equipment [Cochshutt] out of town and/or business, and it devastated the place for decades, it still hasn't recovered. If you think that couldn't happen to the broader southern Ontario, you had better hope that the taxpayers of Newfoundland and Alberta taxpayers etc., have very deep pockets and generous dispositions.
  229. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Dear 'Ryan . from St. Catharines', 'Anyone but Ignatieff; Rae and LeBlanc.', 'dreaming of a green party', 'Freddie B', and all the others who seem to think that auto workers make $70/hour:

    Please pack up your computer in the box provided and send it back for a refund with a note 'Hi, the owner is too stupid to own a computer'. You might also want to do that with your voter registration card, because if you really believe that an auto worker makes $70/hour, then you're really too stupid to vote.

    I find it unfortunate that we don't have some sort of test for who gets to vote, instead giving it to anyone regardless of whether or not they can string two coherent thoughts together. Because it's those people who will elect Harper to a majority if they are given half a chance. People who can't think, who refuse to look at facts, and who will believe any lie put in front of them so long as it appeals to their bigotry, prejudices and personal ignorance.

    These are the same people who blame unions for all the car makers woes when it's rather well documented (there's those pesky facts again) that labour costs are under 10% of the cost of a new car, rather than those who are really responsible, the people who made ALL the decisions, and are directly responsible for ALL the costs. They are called 'management' and 'shareholders', and together they are going to make a killing on these bailouts while the fools vent their anger on the wrong group.
  230. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Bailouts...Alberta seeks tax breaks on oilsands G&M; 8/12/08. Help forestry Industry B.C urges. G&M; 25/11/08. Ontario gives BC $5,000,000 for Olympics. (Alberta...$100,000) Wow ,seems to me everyone wants a bailout.
  231. The Skipper from Canada writes: #1. So who is going to buy these cars and trucks that the Big Three will continue to pump out ???

    #2. I think the CAW better get a reality check !

    #3. Any CAW worker who works at one of the Big Three and is driving and parking an import in the parking lot should be put on notice to get rid of it and buy a Canadian made car.

    #4. The Big Three closes it's manufacturing plants outside of North America.

    #5. Executive salaries are rolled back and 'capped.'
  232. Brian NAV from Shelby Twp, United States writes: Good comments Tim Cares.
  233. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes:

    Jack is in hiding since his ill begotten coo with the Separatists. And his popularity has fallen 7 %.

    -------------

    Jack and the NDP are getting more popular by the minute, and the latest Angus Reid Poll shows their support at pre-election levels, while support for Harper is dropping like a stone. But you're right Jack has been out of the public eye...he's been really busy writing Steve's new budget...
  234. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Managers are babysitters. At Ford they make $140,000 a year. Now who is really overpayed. The employees actually making a product, or the babysitters making $140,000 a year. I want to join their union. Oh yea, they don't have one.
  235. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Dear 'Ryan . from St. Catharines', 'Anyone but Ignatieff; Rae and LeBlanc.', 'dreaming of a green party', 'Freddie B', and all the others who seem to think that auto workers make $70/hour:

    Please pack up your computer in the box provided and send it back for a refund with a note 'Hi, the owner is too stupid to own a computer'. You might also want to do that with your voter registration card, because if you really believe that an auto worker makes $70/hour, then you're really too stupid to vote.

    ..............................................................................................................

    Since you are so knowledgeable in regards to labour costs, instead of insulting others, please provide the actual labour costs including wages, overtime and benefits for a Big 3 and then the actual labour costs including wages, overtime and benefits for Honda in Canada.
  236. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: Politicians only care about their own power and tax base, otherwise they wouldn't be wasting money sustaining the last buggy whip factories.
    'Catastrophic' for who?
    For politicians, of course.
    And yah, autoworkers too. But jobs come and go, and so does industry.
  237. Mark From BC from Canada writes: One of the conditions of a bailout should be that workers for the Detroit 3 are required to own and drive cars built by the Detroit 3 exclusively. This rule should extend to their immediate families.

    If after six months it is found that a Detroit 3 worker or their immediate family have an automobile built by anyone other than the Detroit 3 in their possession. That CAW worker/Detroit 3 manager loses their job with no severance or buyout.
  238. Jim Maxwell from Canada writes: Thats about $100 per head new debt. We can afford the gamble.
  239. John Feldsted from Winnipeg, Canada writes: This will not 'save' American automakers. It is bridge financing to get them through the next couple of months, protect the Canadians share of the Auto Pact agreement and avoid a serious spike in unemployment.

    The D-3 will have to restructure, downsize and retool to make desirable autos. That means lost job and we need to have the programs in place to allow people to retrain and possibly relocate.

    The argument over auto worker wages is silly. The wage paid is far less than the cost of the wage / benefits package. The $70 per hour is all-in cost, not the gross amount on a pay cheque. Anyone who has met a payroll understands that sick days, vacations days, stat holidays, family days, all have a cost not shown on T-4 slips and that those costs are for non-productive days. When you add the costs and divide by actual hours worked, the results are startling.

    Beyond this bridge financing, the D-3 have been told to modernize or die. They will likely wind up in a US bankruptcy court to allow for an orderly transition. If we had not participated in providing bridge financing, we would have no case for keeping our 20% share of NA production intact. The CAW and UAW will be forced to accept the terms set by the bankruptcy court.

    Face facts - the so-called 'Big Three' are dead and gone as viable enterprises. The unions don't have any jobs to protect. Our governments, on both sides of the border trying to salvage what they can with a view to minimizing a disaster for thousands of families and their communities.

    400,000 auto sector jobs at an average of $50,000 each totals to $20 billion per year. Trying to cover even half that to protect families from catastrophe would be far more expensive than the bridge finance loans, at least part of which are secured.

    Lost taxes and increased welfare payments will result from a flat-out auto sector shut-down. While we cannot avoid it all, we can and should mitigate the harm to the extent prudent.
  240. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: 'Buy a vehicle from the GM, Chrysler or Ford and support your local economy. You will reap dividends. '

    With what?
    I cannot afford a 30K vehicle on my $10 bucks per hour. I can only afford a japanese beater, because I also cannot afford the constant break-downs.
    Only autoworkers can afford their own vehicles, and of course, some government workers in the 'public' sector that make their money off other people's taxes.
    Your economic model is stupid.
  241. Mark From BC from Canada writes: I think it is time to declare an amnesty, and issue a pardon to all robbers and thieves that are currently residing in federal/provincial jails.

    It has become open season on the taxpayer. Why should burglars, robbers and thieves be in jail, when the state sanctions this behavior by bankers and CAW member's.

    Doesn't it seem unfair that if you steal small time you go to jail whereas if you steal unfathomable amounts of money, the STATE helps you.
  242. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes:

    Jack is in hiding since his ill begotten coo with the Separatists. And his popularity has fallen 7 %.

    -------------

    Jack and the NDP are getting more popular by the minute, and the latest Angus Reid Poll shows their support at pre-election levels,

    ..............................................................................................................

    I think you had better check that one again. The NDP are now down 3% to 15%. But they have regained somewhat since their unholy alliance and coo attempt with the Separatists. I'll give you that.
  243. Zarko Budisavljevic from Canada writes: ok, i'm confused...nothing new really...i get that the auto workers does not 'take home' $71 perhour...BUT, he is taking home $37 (approx), and some goes towards medical dental benefits etc, and the rest goes towards retirement (of past workers as well as his own)...so, in effect, they are getting the BENEFIT of $71 hourly, and that was it COSTS the company...som why is i tthat the union supporters are so bent out of shape, saying 'we don[t make $71 hourly'....wish i was part of a DB pension plan, instead of the lousy DC crap i've got now......couldn't everyone do well at a $55 hourly BENEFIT package????? please, somebody explain.....
  244. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Here is a link to the benhttp://www.eluta.ca/einfo?en=Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada Inc.&ri;=a307bc5ae55d24c75d66fb876744b982&rk;=d851a1ec7e8d22657710f0a3749fac27efits enjoyed by toyota workers in Canada.
  245. carlos somocurcio from Waterdown, Canada writes: good for the CAW, now they can keep building those high quality, fuel efficient, reliable vehicles....Just one question: will the D3 be able to sell those cars? instead of 'fixing' the supply they should worry about the demand for those vehicles. shouldn't they??????
  246. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Well Vern McPherson...you make a good case. No need for any federal money if you have that kind of economy down there. You should be able to suck it up on your own.....thanks for pointing that out!
  247. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Zando Lee from Vancouver says 'Gail Thomas from Canada....the little 3, when taken together, are giving poor Stevie nightmares, and causing him to do and say irrational things....lately, he has given even his most ardent sycophants reason to pause.....'

    Uh yeah....like the most recent polls (even after the installation of Ignatieff as 'leader' of the Libs) which show the Conservatives 20% ahead of the Liberals nation wide.....I'm sure Harper is losing sleep. You are into the BC bud again....aren't you Zando?
  248. Daren Alex from Toronto, Canada writes: Who cares! Banks are not buying anyway, so what is the point? They will get their bailout but carmakers can't sell since banks are not lending. In US at least, banks had decency to publicly say we are not bying if score is not 650-700. Our guys won't do that! I am telling you that because I am working in that industry.
  249. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Mark From BC from Canada writes:

    'I think it is time to declare an amnesty, and issue a pardon to all robbers and thieves that are currently residing in federal/provincial jails.'

    In a rusted machine, don't the squeaking parts get oiled first?
  250. Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    THE CONBOT PARADOX:

    (spoken in a machine voice)

    STEVEN HARPER IS INFALLIBLE

    STEVEN HARPER SAYS UNIONS ARE BAD

    STEVEN HARPER SAYS SOCIALISM IS BAD

    STEVEN HARPER IS ALWAYS RIGHT

    BUT WAIT... STEVEN HARPER NOW SUPPORTS A SOCIALIST BUDGET AND BAILS OUT UNIONIZED COMPANIES- THEREFORE SOCIALISM IS GOOD AND UNIONS ARE GOOD, BUT STEVEN HARPER SAYS THEY ARE BAD...THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE. THIS IS A NON SEQUITER. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE. THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...THIS DOES NOT...(sound of grinding gears and hissing smoke...)
  251. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: Yah, Harpo gets elected on 'no deficits' then promptly runs up the biggest debt in history.
    Stevo is about as 'conservative' as Karl Marx.
    Why? So we can attempt to salvage a dead business - the entitled, self important pigs of a dying industry. Good deal for the CAW pigs who get to keep their 35$ per hour jobs a bit longer. Lousy deal for the rest of us.
    Oh, great plan Stevo. You are so outta there.
  252. Pete Mitchell from Canada writes: To Brian Nav from Shelby Twp... I will go buy a Big 3 car and support my local economy, once you get rid of every piece of Japanese made electronics in your house. Don't be a hypocrite.
  253. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Dieter....you really should know better than to pretend that any polls done on behalf of the Toronto Star are anywhere close to reality.
  254. Sassy Lassie from Canada writes: Globally we are mocked for being a giant welfare nation, I guess this makes it official. Welcome to Canada the line for polygamist welfare is in Toronto, the line for Corporate Welfare is in Ottawa. If you are a low income earner you need not apply we hold you incontempt. The Coalition elites would not be denied their right to their/our money. Where's Iggy and Layton? They should be on every Media medium thumping their chest and bragging that they made this happen, they demanded the bailout and like good marxist/socialist they get what they want.

    What a sad day this is for all those Canadians who worked their guts off for 10 dollars an hour, they are the ones paying for this bailout. I'm use to the Feds and the Provinical government taking more than half my income, I can afford it but hardworking low to middle income people shouldn't have to bare this burden. It's just wrong.
  255. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada...no, unions are not good. Restructuring of businesses that were held ransom by socialist union racketeers is good. The CAW will be decimated in the restructuring....and THAT is good. No paradox whatsoever.
  256. jason rohlig from guelph, Canada writes: Lets hope the cash from the goverment works and both union and management can get things together to rescue the business, save some jobs, and hopefully build a better or new product that people will be proud to buy and is reliable.

    If not then all is for nothing if in three months these companies are back looking for more capitol from the goverment. Or worse moving back to the US or Mexico.
  257. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Appears we aren't going to get the truth from those who so loudly protest and insult others.

    My understanding from close associates in the auto industry (and not management-hourly workers) is that the figure for Canada per worker is $70 for the big 3 for all costs including wages and benefits. With Honda, it is around $40.

    Now if the problem is that the added benefit cost is as a result of all of the pension costs which I assume Honda and the imports don't have to the same degree because of their length of time in Canada, then there is a serious problem that cannot be resolved easily.

    If it is a problem of concessions to reduce the Big 3's costs to make them viable and able to compete on price and quality levels, then the solution can be found to save the jobs.

    It seems very simple, however complex to those that are directly involved in taking the hit on income. Many families of course are living on their present budget and concessions will create hardship in a big way.

    However, UI and then welfare is a bigger hardship, the way I see it and it also affects hundreds of thousands of other jobs in auto supportive industries and retail merchants.

    If someone has better statistics, I'm all for them.
  258. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Steve French from Windsor says 'Yah, Harpo gets elected on 'no deficits' then promptly runs up the biggest debt in history.
    Stevo is about as 'conservative' as Karl Marx.
    Why? So we can attempt to salvage a dead business - the entitled, self important pigs of a dying industry. Good deal for the CAW pigs who get to keep their 35$ per hour jobs a bit longer. Lousy deal for the rest of us.
    Oh, great plan Stevo. You are so outta there.'

    Really? And replaced with who, exactly? Vladimir Layton? Marxist Duceppe? Brain Dead Lizzie May? Central Canadian robot Ignatieff?

    Give your head a shake.
  259. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes:

    Uh yeah....like the most recent polls (even after the installation of Ignatieff as 'leader' of the Libs) which show the Conservatives 20% ahead of the Liberals nation wide.....I'm sure Harper is losing sleep. You are into the BC bud again....aren't you Zando?

    -----------

    Sorry to say but the latest Angus Reid Poll:

    CONs= 37%
    LPC = 32%
    NDP = 15%
    BQ=9%
    GPC = 8%
    -------------

    Coalition parties have 63% support...and this poll was done entirely after IGGY become LPC leader and all 4 opposition parties re-affirmed their support for the Coalition.

    Best Leader:

    Ignatieff= 28%
    Harper = 27%
    Layton = 10% (but highest scores on trust)
  260. wade robbins from calgary, Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada.....if you want attention for being the biggest fool, then those big bold letters have given you your wish
  261. john near lake ontario from Canada writes:
    I TAKE IT A FEW TAXPAYERS ARE REALLY TICKED OFF ABOUT THIS.

    I HOPE HARPER/McGUINTY CALLED KENNY TO BRING OVER HIS LIST OF CONCESSIONS BEFORE THIS CHEQUE WAS HANDED OVER.

    ( WHAT A 4 BILLION PHOTO OP )

    I HOPE THEY HAVE SOME MONEY LEFT OVER FOR 'REAL PROBLEMS OF THE COUNTRY '
  262. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Byer........the Calgary Herald reported today that Dennis DesRosiers of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants Inc. says that his quick read of the US package tells him the CAW will have to find savings of $25 per hour if the union expects to remain competitive with their counterparts in the UAW.

    Ken Lewenza and the CAW are about to be swept into the dustbin of history.
  263. James Coruzzi from Winnipeg, Canada writes: unbelievable. money to the auto companies to reward them for mismanaging their own funds and making inferior products. i'm sure this money will go to good use like paying pimply-faced teenagers who dads and uncles work for the companies $30 an hour for summer work. that's proper allocation of funds.
  264. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: wade robbins from calgary, Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada.....if you want attention for being the biggest fool, then those big bold letters have given you your wish

    ------

    Sorry, but most of the CONs are home schooled and they have trouble with these small letters.
  265. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Dieter says 'Sorry, but most of the CONs are home schooled and they have trouble with these small letters.'
    Whereas Paul was educated in the Indoctrination Centres sometimes called the Ontario Edukashun Sistim.
  266. Yours Truly from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The population of the USA is approximately 300 million compared to ours of approximately 30 million, which by my calculations comes to about 10%. The USA has provided the auto industry with 17.4 billion and we have provided 4.0 billion or about 23%. Shouldn't it have been 1.74 billion? Mr. Harper has confirmed that we are going to sustain a deficit and I can now understand why! We need to hire some accountants and fire the economists.
  267. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes:

    -----------

    Sorry to say but the latest Angus Reid Poll:

    ..............................................................................................................

    And the end result...........Harper is the Prime Minister elected for back to back governments and Iggy will vote for him for the 44th time on January 27, showing his confidence in the government. A second record minority. And more benefits for Canada despite a minority.

    What Uncle Jack thinks is irrevalent. The NDP will always have extreme left supporters of around 17%. 15 right now and thankfully will never see power.

    In a nutshell.
  268. Paul, Bytown, from Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: mrs dobson...the CAW DID NOT TAKE A WAGE HIKE FOR THREE YEARS. WE AGREED TO MORE COPAY FOR DRUGS AND MEDICAL SERVICES. WE GAVE UP A WEEK VACATION. WE REWROTE OUR LABOUR CONTRACTS TO GIVE MORE TO THE COMPANY.
    ------------------------------------

    Guess what.

    - I don't get an automatic wage hike. If I want more money, then I have to work harder and longer hours. I know, this may be a foreign concept to you.

    - I don't have medical or dental insurance.

    - I don't have paid vacation time.

    But I know I will eventually have to pay hire taxes which means that I won't have the extra cash-flow to pay my own medical and dental and vacations. Why...so that you can continue to live the good life.

    And I represent today's average Canadian whose is self-employed or on contract work.

    So go cry me a river somewhere else you greedy son of B.
  269. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Dieter...if you put any faith in polls conducted for the Toronto Star, you are beyond hope. The coalition is a dead duck. There is no such thing as a 'coalition party'.

    ----------

    When Iggy takes over the PM's office on Jan 28, who will protest? You? Why? Harper has already rolled over and given up everything he said he believed in anyways. Why would you protest? Iggy will be strong and will stand up for conservative values where Harper simply caved. Harper has betrayed you and everything you believe in.
  270. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Yours Truly from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The population of the USA is approximately 300 million compared to ours of approximately 30 million, which by my calculations comes to about 10%. The USA has provided the auto industry with 17.4 billion and we have provided 4.0 billion or about 23%. Shouldn't it have been 1.74 billion? Mr. Harper has confirmed that we are going to sustain a deficit and I can now understand why! We need to hire some accountants and fire the economists.

    ..............................................................................................................

    I think the problem is our reliance on the automotive industry is much greater per population. If you look at our major cities, there is so much relying on the industry.

    We don't have a lot of industry left. What there is, must be protected if possible but not by throwing money in places that are only going to disappear regardless if unions are not prepared to make concessions.

    An excercise in futility. The other problem I see is that with the economy the way it is in the U.S., there will be a push on to get the jobs back down south and I really don't see Obama, who has massive union support, having much sympathy for our economy and job loss.
  271. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Bottom line.....the CAW is going to have to give up $25 per hour or the deal will collapse. The taxpayer is not a party to the union contracts. The CAW is going to have to give in or collapse.
  272. Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: Dear Alberta: I am happily accepting your tax contributions in support of Ontario industry. Keep it coming. Ha Ha HA Ha Ha.
  273. Homer S from Springfield, Canada writes: DO NOT BUY BIG 3 AUTO'S- ALL CRAP CRAP CRAP. BUY JAPANESE, HONDAY, TOYOTA, NISSAN, MAZDA.
  274. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Dieter...you have no idea what I believe in so STFU. Harper is by far the best politician and leader for Canada today. There will be no coalition. Ignatieff is another empty suit Liberal who has already said he is prepared to increase the GST....yeah...that's what the country needs now. Increased taxes.

    -----------

    Joe, if you believe that Harper is the best leader for Canada while at the same time he is implementing an NDP budget then maybe you don't have any idea what you believe in either...maybe you are a Layton supporter after all and have suppressed the true socialist side of your nature...c'mon Joe...come out of the closet...
  275. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Paul Dieter...if you put any faith in polls conducted for the Toronto Star, you are beyond hope. The coalition is a dead duck. There is no such thing as a 'coalition party'.

    ----------

    When Iggy takes over the PM's office on Jan 28, who will protest? You? Why? Harper has already rolled over and given up everything he said he believed in anyways. Why would you protest? Iggy will be strong and will stand up for conservative values where Harper simply caved. Harper has betrayed you and everything you believe in.

    ..............................................................................................................

    I can't believe I'm reading this. You will be changing your name at the end of January, I guess when Count Iggy the Liberal dream boy and Bush lover, votes for Harper like he has in the past for 43 times in two years.

    The Count will be acountin 41...42....43.....44 times have I supported Harper.

    I will give him some credit, he knows the alternative is the GG calling an election on the advice of the PM and Harper will have his majority.

    But everyone should have a dream.

    Careful what you dream for. It may turn into your nightmare.
  276. A Realist from Canada writes: To all the CAW defenders - thanks for validating many persons opinions about the CAW - shout down anyone that disagrees with you, point fingers, deflect blame to management, and attempt to validate your existence.

    My brother-in-law works at Ford and admits that any monkey with 5 minutes training can do his job. His sisters, most of whom are nurses, make half his wages. When autoworkers that have invested little in their skills makes more than nurses, there is a problem. The entitlement train is about to leave the station - finally.
  277. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Yours Truly from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The USA has provided the auto industry with 17.4 billion and we have provided 4.0 billion or about 23%. Shouldn't it have been 1.74 billion?

    -----

    20% of the autosector is located in Canada, not 10%, that and the difference between the USA and Cdn dollar is why our socialist PM, RED STEVE, is putting up 4 billion.
  278. wade robbins from calgary, Canada writes: the toronto star had a poll out just before the last election that showed dion tied with harper...we all know how accurate that poll was
  279. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: This is a completely peripheral point but what really pi$$e$ me off about the entire auto industry is how poorly the Canadian consumer is treated. Whether you are buying a foreign (read American) car or a foreign (read Japanese, Korean, European) car, the same make and model in the USA is absolutely loaded with goodies.
    The 'Canadian' version of the same car is a stripped down crap wagon where everything is extra. Oh you want doors? That will be $3500 more, ABS? $700, Traction control? $1200, moon roof? $1800 and so on.
  280. J Canucklehead from Disband the UN, Canada writes: I think the only responsible course of action is to make sure that Canadian operations are not put at an unfair disadvantage relative to U.S. operations due to gov't action in the U.S.

    So in that context, although I think the whole thing stinks, I don't see where there was any reasonable alternative once the U.S. deal came to light.

    I think when it's all said and done, there will need to be concessions from all parties, including the unions in order to make this palatable to Canadians at large. Thinking otherwise is just plain delusional.

    If I were an auto worker, I don't think I would want to be entering March next year without having made any concessions when (not if) the big 3 come back hat in hand.

    That would not end well.
  281. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: A Realist from Canada writes:
    My brother-in-law works at Ford and admits that any monkey with 5 minutes training can do his job. His sisters, most of whom are nurses, make half his wages. When autoworkers that have invested little in their skills makes more than nurses, there is a problem. The entitlement train is about to leave the station - finally.
    ----------

    So your sister married a monkey...well, I'm not surprised...but the fact is that the top wage for an RN far exceeds anything in the CAW. The Nurses have a real union that plays hardball with management, not like those roll over surrender monkeys in the CAW.
  282. Paul Byer from Canada writes: wade robbins from calgary, Canada writes: the toronto star had a poll out just before the last election that showed dion tied with harper...we all know how accurate that poll was

    ..............................................................................................................

    And the only paper in Canada to support the Liberal party along with the Federal Pen Inmates daily rags. Go figure.
  283. festus from gunsmoke from Dodge City, Canada writes: You lost my vote Harper. The law of the jungle should rule. If you can't figure out how to survive then too bad. We are heading into Socialism with these so called bailouts for car makers and banks
  284. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: The crux of the current problem isn't wages, quality, or political ideology. It's the US market for cars. Unless the US economy improves, nothing else matters. Did anyone see the 60 Minutes story on ARM and Alt-A mortgages last week? Two more waves of bad news on their way after the current sub-prime mess. And the commercial property crap is on top of these again! I believe that's why the US package is being held out as enough money to arrange an orderly bankruptcy. There's just no way the Detroit 3 will be able to weather this series of storms. Worst case - even the Asian manufacturers will be in trouble.

    Everybody should buckle-up and hang on. This is going to really REALLY suck.
  285. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    WOW!

    Reading these forums is so informative!

    Why, just today, I have learned that the CAW is the most powerful organization in the world and that Ken Lewenza is the most powerful man in the world!

    If Lewenza and his union give a few peanuts back then American banks will start giving away money again so people can buy cars.

    Damn proud day to be a Canadian with that kind of muscle.
  286. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    Not everyone agrees that UAW/CAW are the main culprits. Above all, I like points of view justified by data - of course the well-researched and hopefully objective kind - such as those provided in this article below:

    http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/dec/15/00010/

    A balanced view on things is of uttermost importance, especially during a crisis. Otherwise any cure could be worse than the disease.
  287. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes:... Nothing of substance.... as usual.

    .
  288. Saskatchewan Free and Strong from Mongolia writes: I can't see the fuss some of the posters cry on here. This is not a forgivable loan.....its a loan that has to be paid back and interest included. I can just about gaurantee that most of the people bitching here have some sort of loan.
  289. Paul Wilbee from Ottawa, Canada writes: LET’S GIVE A THOUGHT TO CANADA

    At this special time of the year, let’s give a thought to Canada and the future of our democracy.

    While we are distracted by the festive season and economic worries, our democracy may be slipping away from us.

    Both Mr. Harper and Mr. Ignatieff have shown that they possess dangerous anti-democratic tendencies.

    If we leave the destiny of Canada in the hands of either of these two men, I am not hopeful for the survival of our democracy.

    Mr. Rae does not cause me such concerns.

    Let us remember that none of us will live forever. The question is: when we are gone, will we have left our children a real democracy, or just a reasonable facsimile thereof ?

    An email to Liberal MPs and to the Governor General now could make all the difference.

    Please visit my YouTube Channel for details.

    Happy Holidays !
  290. wade robbins from calgary, Canada writes: the CAW was saving the big 3 over 15$ an hour since we have gov. health care...so of course the CAW had too slide the extra wage in the backdoor with 10 spa days..legal defense fund etc..pretty sweet deal
  291. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: The crux of the current problem isn't wages, quality, or political ideology. It's the US market for cars. Unless the US economy improves, nothing else matters. Did anyone see the 60 Minutes story on ARM and Alt-A mortgages last week? Two more waves of bad news on their way after the current sub-prime mess. And the commercial property crap is on top of these again! I believe that's why the US package is being held out as enough money to arrange an orderly bankruptcy. There's just no way the Detroit 3 will be able to weather this series of storms. Worst case - even the Asian manufacturers will be in trouble.

    Everybody should buckle-up and hang on. This is going to really REALLY suck.
    -----------

    It is gonna be a nightmare and saving the millions of jobs in the NA autosector is the first part of trying to wakeup from this Bush created bad dream. The USA is going to have to bite the bullet and nationalize their entire banking system to prevent a complete meltdown, but we can set the autosector to work building the next generation of vehicles and them stimulate demand for those vehicles to help prime the pump of the economy.
  292. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes:... Nothing of substance.... as usual.

    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

    Now that is the joke post of the day! And your substance?
  293. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Many blame wages for the auto industry woes.

    They may play a part,
    but a very small part as labour is only 7% to 10% of the cost of a car. So if CAW workers cut their wages and benefits in half the company could save $500 to $700 per car or less.

    The real causes of the immediate problems is the credit crunch and the abrupt disappearance of the auto market. it will come back.

    The long term problems are:

    1/ The lack of a single-payer public health care system in the US.
    This is being addressed through VEBA (which will pick up the legacy health care costs) and the companies costs will rapidly decline.

    2/ Bigness itself has hurt these companies. Honda or Kia are smaller and can react quicker to the market than Toyota or GM.
    The investments to produce for 6% or 10% of the market are much smaller.
    Ford shank itself and is now not much larger than Honda so is in better shape and will become one of the top companies in every category very soon.
    Toyota even with huge subsidies (Google japan auto subsidies) is now losing money.

    The simplistic views of many posters show that they don't understand this complex international industry.
  294. G H from Canada writes: Here's what I see when I look in my garage, I buy my vehicles based on value. In 2000 when we needed a mini van I checked out all makes and models. When we drove the Honda Odyssey...we were sold. Heads and shoulders above the competition in a $$ for $$ / feature for feature basis. That van drives / handles / sounds the same today as the day we drove it off the lot. Shortly after, we needed a smaller car to drive to work and back...looked all over...loved the Jetta, bought a used TDI, I fill the thing for $40 and drive 900km. Recently daughter drives the Jetta so I need somethnig to drive to work. Fuel prices being wat they were....I bought a used Smart car. (hey a redneck Albertan driving a Smart....there's a visual) I do not hate the NA auto industry, nor do I hate unions, in fact having lived through the NEP and $12 oil....I know EXACTLY what loosing a home looks like because I had friends who lost theirs, and frankly, my heart goes out the the folks who are living with uncertanty. I did not set out to NOT buy NA cars.....they just were NOT selling the VALUE in cars each time I went to buy! I aggree with the comments that state we should be using the bailout bucks to build future industry. If I saw a proposal to build electric cars, build solar panels, build wind mills or whatever here in Canada using the same workers / plants etc. etc. I think you'd see some support. Sort of sounds like the green shift :) I'm already on record as saying that was not a bad idea....just not a good thing to propose and explain in an election. Anyway...there's my ten cents worth.
  295. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Paul Wilbee from Ottawa, Canada writes: LET’S GIVE A THOUGHT TO CANADA

    Both Mr. Harper and Mr. Ignatieff have shown that they possess dangerous anti-democratic tendencies.

    If we leave the destiny of Canada in the hands of either of these two men, I am not hopeful for the survival of our democracy.

    Mr. Rae does not cause me such concerns.

    ..............................................................................................................

    Shirley you jest. I was around when RAE 'ONTARIO YOUR TO RECOVER' was Premier.

    If that man had of gotten hold of the reigns of Canada, it would have been 'CANADA DOWN UNDER'

    One dream of a Coalition and he was ready to through $30 billion in a DRIVE BY throw out of the window save the country.

    Different party. Same man. Same Policy. A socialist does not a democracy make.

    But Season's Greetings anyway.
  296. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    We would actually strongly consider a 'Big three' vehicle (although a Chrysler is unlikely) as we have the need for a new car or at the very least for a replacement for our 2004 Corolla (despite snow tires) in this nasty central Ontario weather.

    Up until recently, I had a quite likable 10y old 'inherited' Volvo that had more warning lights on than off at times it seems.

    It seems that with some certainty the qualities of the Big Three products have improved. Two years ago, my uncle bought a Buick in Shanghai after cross-shopping against Volvos and Audis! Mind you, his Buick apparent wasn't the same as those available in NA.

    But there has to be some sort of guarantee that warranties will be honored. This is not like someone showing up at the airport only to be told that the budget airline has folded.

    A vehicle has to be backed up by some sort of warranty.
  297. CallofDuty . from Toronto, Canada writes: Monkey see, Monkey do.
  298. Yours Truly from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Thanks for the explanation of why we are supporting 20% of what the Americans are contributing, instead of 10% as I had suggested based on population. However, if it is true that Obama and the USA unions are going to press for a shift in production down south, then aren't we going to lose the battle anyway; so let's bite the bullet now. I think the explanation that currency exchange is a factor in the equation is irrelevant to my comparison. The good news is that the children of those CAW Moms and Dads will at least have a good Xmas this year, as next year might be problematical.
  299. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    I Think the CAW should accept a three year wage freeze.

    They should lose a weeks vacation every year.

    They should have a drastically higher co-pay for drugs.

    They should reduce nursing home benefits for their retirees.

    They should agree to less union reps.

    They sholud agree to new shop floor work rules.

    They should agree to out source some of their work.

    They should have no cost of living increases.

    They should have no pension increases.

    They should have no lump sum at retirement.

    OH Wait...They did all that ...this year. and more

    They opened their contracts early to help their employers.

    The CAW wants the auto companies to succeed.
  300. G E from Toronto, Canada writes: When we talk about concessions having to be made on labor costs we need to keep in mind the different components.

    Workers with seniority currently employed earn significantly more than recent hires. The problem it appears is that there are more of the former than the latter due to lack of turn-over.

    The other aspect of labor costs is the benefits (medical, dental and pension being accrued by current workers.

    The biggest labor cost appears to be the legacy costs i.e. pensions and medical benefits for retired workers.

    So when we talk about labor concessions we need to be looking at the different components and yes the burden of any labor cost reductions will not be eveny distributed both among those employed and between the employed and retired workers. (The new hires are probably close to where they need to be in terms of a competitive wage.)

    None of this is going to be easy. There just is no realistic alternative. Surely the unions can see the political writing on the wall. Political support for the auto bailouts is weakening and bailout fatigue is setting in amongst governments and voters.

    Of course labor costs are not the only problem facing the Detroit 3 but it is one that can be acted quickly. Some of the other costs are 'fixed' and yes they can in time be reduced but certainly not in the next 3 to 6 months.

    Personally I favor a 'managed bankruptcy' since I believe that it is all coming down to too little too late by management and labor. If we are lucky in 12 months time we may still have one of the Detroit 3 operating albeit as a niche player in the North American market. Will that survivor be producing cars in Canada? I would give it no better than a 50 50 chance. The reprieve from execution is temporary and should be used to soften the blow of an abrupt shutdown on the Canadian economy.
  301. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes:

    'It is gonna be a nightmare and saving the millions of jobs in the NA autosector is the first part of trying to wakeup from this Bush created bad dream. The USA is going to have to bite the bullet and nationalize their entire banking system to prevent a complete meltdown, but we can set the autosector to work building the next generation of vehicles and them stimulate demand for those vehicles to help prime the pump of the economy.'

    ==========================================

    I think that anybody working in the auto sector who imagines that they'll still have a job with the Detroit 3 or most of the related parts makers in a year or two, should put that 'gagger' down, and straighten-up. In the US you can write-off your mortgage interest. Many people routinely refinanced their houses to buy stuff - like new cars & trucks. A lot of them can't do that anymore, because their houses are worth less than the existing mortgages. Google '60 Minutes' and watch the story on mortgages from last week. The story is specifically about mortgages, and doesn't mention the auto biz. But pretty much everybody should be able to 'connect the dots'. The US economy isn't near the bottom yet. Really. If I was an auto worker, I'd be looking any gov't money as buying me a little time to get working on 'what's next' - because that's all it is.
  302. Just A Guy from Canada writes:
    ..next up...

    Kill the unions and bring wages in line with the education and skill required to do the work that autoworkers do. There is zero reason anybody working on a line turning a nut or using automation to center a car hood should make $25 per hour.

    Interesting enough...a gloss through the massive contract these people have there is nary a peep about productivity nor quality of work.

    Next time one of these hicks known as CAW reps yanks about cash, they should be reminded to say thank you to the taxpayers who have, for years, enabled them to be overpaid.
  303. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    They should have no lump sum at retirement.

    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

    So those packages within the last six months from GM should be returned? I don't think the retirees will agree.

    Over $100,000 in lump sum incentive retirement packages with a $35,000 car voucher.

    And the cutting down on the dental from cleaning from twice a year to once a year?

    And the cutting down of nursing home payments to $1700 a month while still collecting the pension? The only company that I know that pays out that kind of payment. Mine doesn't. I know of one other that pays $600 a month though.

    Your posted points are however moot if it does not result in equal benefit/wage costs between the Big 3 and the imports to make them competitive.

    A lot more concessions unfortunately. I will say though that the family members and associates I know that are with the auto industry, are cognitive of the need for concessions similar to the UAW.

    Otherwise, benefits and wages will mean nothing. There won't be any.
  304. Andrew Jones from Halifax, Canada writes: Western Weasel, I just clicked on that link you posted. Hang on a second, I'm still laughing.....
    Phew. That's better.
    I love you arrogant Westerners and your calls for separation. Have you called Palin yet and asked her to run for Westie President?
    When problems arise and others not directly affected (apart from a few extra tax dollars) react by calling for separation, I just have to laugh. Nice way to show support for your countrymen.
    Take Quebec out of the picture. Who cares what Quebec does anyway? But now you're wanting to split away from Canada because Ontario is going through tough times? Have you people not read the forecasts about oil and the mining sectors in general?
    Now that Danny boy has fixed things in Newfoundland, should they, the only province with a real case for it, be calling to separate?
    Of course not. They're Canadians. You're Canadians. Ontarians are Canadians. And even Quebecors are Canadians.
    Shessh...no wonder the divorce rate in the mighty West is so high. When a problem arises or there's a big conflict, what will we do?
    Jerk the knee, then SEPARATE!
    Must be all that fresh mountain air....
  305. dreaming of a green party majority from Canada writes: Noticed Fred Couples wearing Cadillac logos on his golf clothes -whats that worth to him half a milion -just speculating does my tax money go to these endorsemnt things to Tiger and Couples or just to maintaining Canadian jobs. What a joke!
  306. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    'Workers with seniority currently employed earn significantly more than recent hires. The problem it appears is that there are more of the former than the latter due to lack of turn-over.'

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    One of my in-laws worked for Dana until recently and had fairly high seniority. When asked about the auto situation a few months ago, the first thing he conceded was that 'people like himeself was to blame, then other factors ...', in relation to seniority and various benefits that did not seem flexible with changing economic conditions.

    And of course, the age-old adversarial model of union-management relation did not really help, he also conceded.

    But I couldn't help wonder that life really isn't fair. The Madoff financiers are getting one bail-out after another even though they arguably got everyone else into this mess.

    Unionized CAW/UAW workers can at least expect some measure of 'bail-out'.

    Yet my two middle-aged relatives who worked in tech industry in the US lost their jobs during the recent carnage with just a snap of the finger. And they have no recourse and no hope of a 'bail-out'.

    Who says life is fair, I suppose.

    If next comes lay-offs in the oil-sands, then all bets really are off ...
  307. Blizzard Man from Canada writes: What about helping out the Forestry sector? Nothing was done when thousands lost their jobs in that industry. sounds like Harper is simply buying his way into Ontario hoping for a majority sometime down the road.

    So the big 3 will get rewarded for their mismanagement of the industry over the past 15 years and now hold Canada and Canadians at ransom. Failing companies should fail......
  308. Mike from Van from Vancouver, Canada writes: NO more welfare for these corporate bums.

    I'll be calling my MP on Monday to protest this.
  309. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: dreaming of a green party majority from Canada writes: Noticed Fred Couples wearing Cadillac logos on his golf clothes -whats that worth to him half a milion -just speculating does my tax money go to these endorsemnt things to Tiger and Couples or just to maintaining Canadian jobs. What a joke!

    ===========================================

    There was a news story a few weeks ago about how Tiger and Buick were parting ways.
  310. Pinnacle . from Vancouver, Canada writes: A victory for the unions, a sad day for taxpayers.
  311. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Paul Byer from Canada writes:
    And the cutting down of nursing home payments to $1700 a month while still collecting the pension

    ________________________________________

    Since you seem to be hung up on nursing homes.

    Now $1500 for new entrants to long term care.

    The former benefit of $1700 was not cut for current recipients.

    I am surprised that you don't have your facts right.

    You profess to 'know' everything but have many factual errors in your posts.

    I think you would be happy if people who worked all their lives for their pension were cut off and starved.

    Most people would say that they earned it.
  312. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: I am opposed to a bailout. This is a big victory for the coalition. Let us not forget that in the next election.

    And the glorious coalition must own up to its part in the nefarious happenings in Ottawa. We also should insist they run on the coalition 'accord' in the next election.

    Who is/are the bullies now? Dump on the coalition. And RIP big 3.
  313. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Pinnacle . from Vancouver, Canada writes: A victory for the unions, a sad day for taxpayers.

    ..............................................................................................................

    Not if you like me, have family and friends with families that not only work in the auto industry, but in retail stores that rely on the industry. I don't think people realize the extent of the industry and it's supportive outside jobs or they would support the bailout, but again........only with concessions. Otherwise we would be throwing billions at something that can't possible sustain itself.

    There are tens of thousands of workers dependant on the industry that won't be paying their taxes or health care or spending and it will be a disaster if it fails. Think of the health costs, UI and welfare cost. A hundred times greater than a few billion properly doled out to save it.

    There is no time in the immediate future to transfer these jobs over to sustainable energy or whatever new industries that can be created, as suggested by some. It takes time and meanwhile the Canadian economy goes under big time. We haven't seen anything yet if it fails.

    Pray it doesn't. This totally benefits the tax payer if properly administered.
  314. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:

    If next comes lay-offs in the oil-sands, then all bets really are off ...

    ===========================================

    The oil sands are pretty much all that's left of the industrial economy. Operations & maintenance will be going as long as the existing plants keep running. Construction is dwindling, though. The first ones that will feel that will be the travel cards and people on living out allowance. That will mean that guys will get laid off in AB, and return home to BC or the east, so unemployment will actually increase in the ROC first.

    If the oil sands sputter, where does everyone imagine that the money will come from to bail anybody else out?
  315. Free The West Free The West from Rock of the Westies, Canada writes: For all of you above complaining about this socialist pandering to the C.A.W., we can put a stop to this fast. No more purchases from the Detroit automakers.

    Tell your friends, your neighbours, only buy from Companies responsible enough to not take corporate welfare. We all know that the CAW is going to be back for more welfare soon, and again after that. We can shut them down first!
  316. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: To Comments Closed etc; ... While the announceements by the Federal and Prov. Govts may give the r results they hope or not is immaterial. This is the decision of ALL the political parties (Libs & NDP were calling for this a long time ago and was part of the coalition platform). --- 'Results immaterial'? You must be kidding! That is what one rightly calls 'social irresponsibility'... And in times of world crisis, social irresponsibility on the part of governments is a $crime. That ALL the political parties be equally opportunistic only goes to show Canadians should all have voted 'none of the above'. Season's greetings. ---------- Saskatchewan Free and Strong from Mongolia writes: 'I can't see the fuss some of the posters cry on here. This is not a forgivable loan.....its a loan that has to be paid back and interest included. I can just about gaurantee that most of the people bitching here have some sort of loan.' ---- That must be the joke of the year! Nobody expects the bankrupt to pay back any of their loans, let alone new loans they would have received once the whole world knew they were bankrupt. To authorize such loans is nothing short of a $crime, knowing most of the $$$ come from the pockets of the have-not$. --- FYI, in Mongolia... I owe money to no one and have not for decade$ -- too expen$ive! If more Canadian$ were in the $ame po$ition, this country would not be going down the drain at an accelerated pace, as we shall all see more conclusively in the new year. --- Electoral entertainment is over. Back to reality.
  317. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes: And the cutting down of nursing home payments to $1700 a month while still collecting the pension ________________________________________ Since you seem to be hung up on nursing homes. Now $1500 for new entrants to long term care. The former benefit of $1700 was not cut for current recipients. I am surprised that you don't have your facts right. You profess to 'know' everything but have many factual errors in your posts. I think you would be happy if people who worked all their lives for their pension were cut off and starved. Most people would say that they earned it. .............................................................................................................. I think you have confirmed my post with the exception that it is now down to $1500 from the $1700. The point is moot, as I pointed out because if the concessions are not made, there will be no benefits or wages. Not about people starving as 99% of other people do not have those benefits from companies, but do from the government who pays for long term nursing homes if there is no income. It is a benefit that far exceeds any others in other jobs or professions. It is about companies about to go under without concessions. End of story. Which of my other facts are wrong? The dental cuts to once a year from twice on cleaning. No. The pay out incentives that you were indicating were given up? No.
  318. Joe Technicality from Hamilton, Canada writes: Let's do some quick math. 4billion$ divided by 30million Canadians. Let's see here... carry the one... Each and every one of us, including my 2 year old son, have just given these failing businesses over $133.... for starters.

    I'll tell you what. On my son's part, I'd like to charge out my $133 through the OSAP program. The federal portion charges prime 5% interest if you lock in (OSAP website). Bank prime is 3.5% (BMO), so if the government promises to give my child an education grant of $133 8.5% compound interest for 16 years when he's ready to go to college, then they can 'borrow' my tax dollars now.

    Seems fair. My son has a better chance of going to college (and contributing to the future economy, ergo tax base), than these corporate wieners have of making their corporations work.
  319. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: Are you in favour of an automaker bailout?

    G&M; ran that on-line poll about two months ago. The result was about 80% against.

    American polls report that a little over 60% are against the U.S. bailout.

    Seems like a good time to run the poll again G&M.;
  320. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Free The West Free The West from Rock of the Westies, Canada writes: For all of you above complaining about this socialist pandering to the C.A.W., we can put a stop to this fast. No more purchases from the Detroit automakers.

    Tell your friends, your neighbours, only buy from Companies responsible enough to not take corporate welfare. We all know that the CAW is going to be back for more welfare soon, and again after that. We can shut them down first!

    =========================================

    The Canadian market is just too small to matter for either sales increases or decreases. Automakers - whether Asian or the Detroit 3 - will sell as many or more cars in a big state like New York or California as they will in all of Canada in the same time period.
  321. R S from Canada writes: a Realist from Canada...................if your brother-in-laws sisters are nurses and are making half the wage he is, then they are working in the wrong medical facility. I question if they are RPN's or just aides. I'm not aware of any nurses in this province who are paid $16/hr. That is a fact.

    Tell them to come to Windsor, we need nurses!!!!!
  322. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Paul Byer from Canada writes:..... Which of my other facts are wrong? The dental cuts to once a year from twice on cleaning. No. The pay out incentives that you were indicating were given up? No.
    ____________________________________________

    Yes... both wrong.

    Try getting facts and not hearsay, most of this stuff is on the net.

    -------
  323. billy mac from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Let's see now, that's $4 Billion to save 400,000 depent people in Ontario. Not a bad Christmas present at $10,000 per head. Where's my present.
  324. by jove from Canada writes:
    Will this ought to last them to the end of January.

    Then what?
  325. T. M. from Edmonton, Canada writes: I say it again.

    The causal nexus of this 'crisis' is that US debtors can no longer afford, or no longer want, to buy cars that are made in the Canadian plants. There are not enough orders to keep the plants running.

    That's what Canada gets for hitching it's wagon to a horse that is half-dead.

    So if the federal government (who supposedly represent The People of Canada) and the Ontario government (who supposedly represent The People of Ontario) want to help those plants, they should be buying small, fuel-efficient cars from the automakers - either 4,000 million dollars worth, or whatever number it takes to keep the plants running - and GIVING them to the taxpayers of Canada, whose tax money bought them!

    Either that, or, if these governments want Canadians to continue to produce automobiles, let these obsolete businesses go bankrupt and start new, modern, govenment-owned and operated automobile-manufacturing facilities.

    The cars produced in these facilities would be of a design decided upon by the People of Canada. Hopefully they would be simple and resilient enough so that the owner could easily maintain them and they would last a very long time - in other words, the opposite of the current crop of incredibly expensive, high-tech lemons.

    We either follow the government's plan and get nothing, or we break from the road to ruin and get some great cars for our money. The choice is supposed to be ours, not the air-heads in Ottawa.
  326. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Paul Byer from Canada writes:..... Which of my other facts are wrong? The dental cuts to once a year from twice on cleaning. No. The pay out incentives that you were indicating were given up? No.
    ____________________________________________

    Yes... both wrong.

    Try getting facts and not hearsay, most of this stuff is on the net.
    .............................................................................................................

    Ah yes, the old go find it. No answer. You are so full of b.s.

    Try a discussion with presenting facts, not lies.
  327. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Paul Byer from Canada writes:..... Which of my other facts are wrong? The dental cuts to once a year from twice on cleaning. No. The pay out incentives that you were indicating were given up? No.
    ___________________________________________

    Yes... both wrong.

    Try getting facts and not hearsay, most of this stuff is on the net.
    .............................................................................................................

    Ah yes, the old go find it. No answer. You are so full of b.s.

    Try a discussion with presenting facts, not lies.

    _____________

    I did present facts...,you disputed them by citing hearsay from relatives etc.
  328. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: 'Will this ought to last them to the end of January.
    Then what?'

    Then welcome to Cuba, North.
  329. Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, Canada writes: Paul Byer has family and friends with families that work in the auto industry; in retail stores that rely on the industry; the unions; the gravy train. He worries about the health costs, UI and welfare cost. A hundred times greater than a few billion properly doled out to save it.

    Dole is the right word! Paul, your approach is selfish and not based upon reality. If these lame-brain, vote buying, crooks in Ottawa go on stealing and giving away 'a few billion' here and 'a few billion there' how long do you think it will be before canada is bankrupt?

    The auto industry, it's workers and unions have lived high on the cheap oil hog for fifty plus years. It's over! Do what the rest of us have to do: stand on your own two feet. BTW that does not mean welfare when the EI runs out. Get two or three jobs like the rest of us: and make one of them a volunteer postion!
  330. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: billy mac from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Let's see now, that's $4 Billion to save 400,000 depent people in Ontario. Not a bad Christmas present at $10,000 per head. Where's my present. -- You mu$t be too $mall to $ave, billy. But you are wrong. $10,000 is only a deposit on that Christmas present. Only a small deposit. I am told that present come$ in many in$tallment$ --- Number of in$tallment$? Un$pecified....
  331. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes:

    Mostly B$ but the 'facts' you give are wrong.

    There was no change to the dental plan. The change you refer to was at least 15 years ago.

    Retirees under the old contract got $25000 at retirement. Now $0

    The buy outs you mention are ,as you know, because GM broke the contract at Oshawa within 2 weeks of signing it by announcing the closure of the plant in Oshawa.

    My problem with your posts is that although you present yourself as knowledgeable you show that your knowledge is out of date.

    Many CAW locals publish the highlights of the contracts on the net.

    My comments are verifiable.

    Yours are not as they have glaring errors.
  332. Gregory W. Barker from Peterborough, Canada writes: Hey Buss
    You and jerk friends,Jack,Dion and ect. can stand in line to shake my hand.If you think that spending my tax dollars to keep these over paid workers building a expense item that I will not bye is making me happy...guess again!!
  333. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, Canada writes: Paul Byer has family and friends with families that work in the auto industry; in retail stores that rely on the industry; the unions; the gravy train. He worries about the health costs, UI and welfare cost. A hundred times greater than a few billion properly doled out to save it.

    Dole is the right word! Paul, your approach is selfish and not based upon reality. If these lame-brain, vote buying, crooks in Ottawa go on stealing and giving away 'a few billion' here and 'a few billion there' how long do you think it will be before canada is bankrupt?

    The auto industry, it's workers and unions have lived high on the cheap oil hog for fifty plus years. It's over! Do what the rest of us have to do: stand on your own two feet. BTW that does not mean welfare when the EI runs out. Get two or three jobs like the rest of us: and make one of them a volunteer postion!

    ..............................................................................................................

    Perhaps you should put a little thinking into it. Where would you suggest the people go for jobs when the auto industry collapses?
  334. J lien from Richmond, Canada writes: Yes union members do not make $75.00 per hour this is the cost of hrly emplyment plus benefits. Obviously too much in the way of benefits, What type of pension plan do these union members enjoy?
    It is obvious that the automotive industry, even in the best of times has substantial over capacity. If the any of the ' big three' are going to survive, they must become the big one or two. As Ford is the only one not requesting an immediate bailout to survive, I would belive the other two shoudl be force to amalgamate.
    However that said, with the economic times that we are going to experience in the next couple of years there is no guarantee that any of us will enjoy continued employment, and the tax payer cannot bail everyone. WE are the economy and we are under extreme stress! No one needs a new vehicle every 3 years, get used to it, the good times are over.
  335. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, is a nutcase from a made up 'religion.'

    His posts never have any credibility on any subject.

    'Religions' like his are an abuse of tax-deductibility.
  336. lafontaine louis from laval, Canada writes: Capitalism is sick......
  337. Michael Ireton from Calgary, Canada writes: This move is ludicrous and utterly wrong on SO many levels it's hard to know where to begin. Giving billions of dollars to companies which have appallingly mismanaged and bungled their enterprises is insane. Giving billions to automakers who have fought tooth and nail against every attempt to legislate or regulate ANYTHING to do with safety, efficiency, or any other kind of improvement is beyond exasperating. Giving billions to them to essentially continue 'business as usual' in a technology which is rapidly becoming (and MUST become) obsolete is beyond belief. It is a band-aid measure to try to 'save' an industry which is showing early signs of the death it inevitably and must die. It is absolutely and completely indicative of a lack of vision and foresight on the part of our national 'leaders'. Rather than thinking of this as a transformative opportunity, the only thought process is to try to keep the terminally-ill patient alive at any cost. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that IF various levels of government are going to pump billions of dollars into 'infrastructure' as a 'financial stimulus', perhaps they ought to spend those billions on track and rolling stock for passenger rail--trams and light rail transit in and around cities and RELIABLE HIGH-SPEED INTER-CITY RAIL. The 'auto' plants could easily be retooled into 'rail' plants...the billions could be spent...and we Canadians would all have a viable, sustainable way to get around within and between the places where we live. Building railways was a nation-defining gesture more than 100 years ago--it could and should be again! Tell GM and Chrysler and the parts manufacturers they're in the 'human mobility' business, not just the 'car' business; have a vision of sustainable mobility in the country; and use this 'crisis' as the PERFECT opportunity to make that transformative shift. But no...
  338. Manfred Scholl from Burlington, Canada writes: The CAW clearly articulates that no bailout is required, their options, I suppose, is go out on strike.
    So, why are we doing this?
  339. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Paul Byer from Canada writes: Mostly B$ but the 'facts' you give are wrong. There was no change to the dental plan. The change you refer to was at least 15 years ago. Retirees under the old contract got $25000 at retirement. Now $0 The buy outs you mention are ,as you know, because GM broke the contract at Oshawa within 2 weeks of signing it by announcing the closure of the plant in Oshawa. My problem with your posts is that although you present yourself as knowledgeable you show that your knowledge is out of date. Many CAW locals publish the highlights of the contracts on the net. My comments are verifiable. .............................................................................................................. Then perhaps you can verify them. It is easy. I can lead you through copy and paste if you like. You have all the web details. Unfortunately your personal knowledge is faulty. The dental was just changed to once a year cleaning from twice . I stand by that and I call on you to prove otherwise. GM workers took over $100,000 in retirement incentives and a $35,000 car voucher within the past 6 months and I stand by that. Now please disprove either fact. You have called it heresay. I'm waiting for your proof. You have it readily available. Then please provide a solution to the crisis other than blaming others and blowing hot air about the CAW. Your answer to solving the problem is what to make the jobs viable with bailouts? Concessions or no? And can they compete without concessions and equal wage/benefits? A little substance.
  340. Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, Canada writes: Paul Byer: do what the rest of us have to do: look for work! You think that it is some sort of right. The auto industry bottom line bleeds red ink; as does that of many other industries. Where does it stop?

    Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, is a nutcase from a made up 'religion.' His posts never have any credibility on any subject. 'Religions' like his are an abuse of tax-deductibility.

    Well, whoever you are behind that sill name: nuts I may be, and Christianity may be 'made up', and are certainly tax-deductable for the churches.

    But are you not the self-proclaimed big-mouth guru of verifyable facts? Are you not the one who is spot on accurate in your posts?

    Naw, you are just another gravy train feeder who works black market economy on the side! Crawl out from under your rock and get some credibility!
  341. TIME FOR CONS TO WISE UP from MY M.P. COUNTS JUST AS MUCH AS YOURS, Canada writes: When a headline says 'PM', who is it talking about?

    Doesn't a PM in Canada have to have the confidence of Parliament?

    .
  342. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: Paul Wilbee from Ottawa, Canada writes: '... let’s give a thought to Canada and the future of our democracy. While we are distracted by the festive season and economic worries, our democracy may be slipping away from us. Both Mr. Harper and Mr. Ignatieff have shown that they possess dangerous anti-democratic tendencies. If we leave the destiny of Canada in the hands of either of these two men, I am not hopeful for the survival of our democracy. Mr. Rae does not cause me such concerns.'

    Is this a joke or just delusion? Rae was a big-time promoter of the anti-Canadian, anti-democratic cabal. The people of Canada stood up against this attempted coup d'etat. Rae is gone, Dion is gone. Hopefully, Layton will be next, along with Duceppe and May. Broadbent has returned to his well deserved obscurity after his heinous involvement in this affair. Canadians of all legitimate political views must stand on guard against those anti-democratic forces that would attempt to usurp our Canada.
  343. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: I'm certain the little coalition just love all this throwing around of B's of dollars. Where's Jack? Do he and Olivia still live in subsidized housing?

    Poor little Jack. Ignatieff doesn't seem to like his coalition. Or does he??
  344. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Here we go ... the government coming to the rescue. This is an entitlement that today's 'Canadians' seem to think is their right. Now the taxpayers pay while billions are dumped into industry that is quickly becoming, if it isn't already, unsustainable. What a waste. The money will be misused by the industry and the unions. Then, they will be the ones to complain about Canada's deficit.
  345. Yakatarina Verbosovich from aslowlydyingprovincialcity, Canada writes: Here we have two of Canada's most incompetent giving away our tax dollars....I suggest we start a Taxpayer's Revolution.

    I don't have a dirver's licence...and never wil.

    What a waste of money!!!......these auto makers are destroying our atmosphere through their ignorance and terrible products!....and now we will see the tax hikes 'a comin...they are both just setting us up for a royal 'Rodgering'.....God help the poor!...They sure won't!
  346. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: TIME FOR CONS TO WISE UP from MY M.P. COUNTS JUST AS MUCH AS YOURS, Canada writes: When a headline says 'PM', who is it talking about?

    Doesn't a PM in Canada have to have the confidence of Parliament? ...
    __________________

    Wow, that was weak.
  347. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: I think I have become addicted to this issue and cannot stop posting comments. The argument presented by the CAW that we cannot sell cars to China etc. is absolutely stupid. No wonder, with the wages and benefits at $73/hr vs $4/hr in China , really, how many cars would they sell. If the CAW wants to work for $4/hr then maybe their arguments have validity. Get real and work for wages which are realistic and make cars which are competitively priced. Then maybe the big 3 have a chance to survive.
  348. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Paul Byer from Canada Perhaps you should call you relatives about these things since you have them wrong.

    Your insistence on Dental care being annual and just changing makes you look foolish to any Caw big three worker.

    It changed at least 15 years ago, to nine months not twelve from six.

    Ask any Dentist or receptionist in southern Ontario.

    From

    B A R G A I N I N G R E P O R T MAY 2 0 0 8

    The $25,000 Retirement Incentive has been eliminated.

    I posted originally about CAW concessions this year.

    You chose to nit pick my post with hearsay.

    I don't disagree with you that more could be done.

    But as I said above CAW workers want their employers to succeed.
  349. Liz Hutton from Brantford, Canada writes: I guess next time the Conservatives will get a majority...and to all those complaining you had better get to all those town hall meetings, write to your MP to tell him what you want included in the budget.

    3,7 billion down, 26.3 billion to go on stimulis package. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

    My opinion I think the Conservatives should forget the cries of the doomsday oppostion and just stick to their plan.

    Most of us will back you if the Coalition votes you down. We would rather have an election than socialist policies forced upon us.

    Harper don't back down!!!
  350. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: I think I have become addicted to this issue and cannot stop posting comments. The argument presented by the CAW that we cannot sell cars to China etc. is absolutely stupid. No wonder, with the wages and benefits at $73/hr vs $4/hr in China , really, how many cars would they sell. If the CAW wants to work for $4/hr then maybe their arguments have validity. Get real and work for wages which are realistic and make cars which are competitively priced. Then maybe the big 3 have a chance to survive.
    ___________________________________

    As you undoubtedly know, no autoworker makes $73 per hour.
  351. Steve French from Windsor, Ont, Canada writes: 'Giving billions to automakers who have fought tooth and nail against every attempt to legislate or regulate ANYTHING'

    Yes sir, you are correct. Every one of them DOVE through the 'light truck' EMISSIONS LOOPHOLE so they could continue building monstrous, wasteful, polluting poorly made piles of junk loaded with luxury crappola when it was clear society wanted smaller, non-polluting, efficient small cars.
    But no, they had to shove those titanic road-yachts down our throats to maximize profit and keep those million dollar exec bonuses rolling in. Of course the ball cap wearing dunces working in the auto plants were happy to oblige and use their 35$ bolt tightening jobs to buy those huge vehicular penile extensions and imagine they're driving a 'big rig' while living in suburbia.
    Now, they come pan handling to taxpayer to save their precious jobs.
    Nobody bailed me out.
    No severance. No nothing when my plant folded up and moved to China, thanks to the Big 3 putting the screws to every supplier and tool and die plant in North America.
    They should get the exact same bail out I got - Unemployment Insurance with NO TOP UP, get out there a retrain for something else.
    Wah! Wah!
    Stop blubbering.
  352. diane marie from Canada writes: Liz Hutton:-- I recommend two things. Research the meaning of socialism before flinging/parroting the word around. Before you do that, though, take your current and erroneous working definition of the word and ask yourself what it is that you think Mr. Harper is doing.
  353. Robert Mason from Canada writes: so long, farewell, adieu to $4b, the worst decision the crass despot Harper and the sycophant McGuinty ever made. Does the average Canadian hard earded income and related taxes mean nothing to you? Idiots the pair of you, god help us all
  354. Kevin Desmoulin from Canada writes: I agree with Nick, I looking at the TV, and Ford is pushing the new F150 with Step ups behind the Cab, It does not seem like things are going to change.
  355. diane marie from Canada writes: Liz Hutton:-- If you're feeling particularly generous, you can also look up the terms democracy, constitutional monarchy, and parliamentary democracy for Freddie Fender. He must have skipped classes that day/week/month.
  356. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: Nick Be: I agree with your last post. Also, the CAW argument about not being allowed in the Asian market is so old and fusty.The production costs in Canada are too high.
  357. A Realist from Canada writes: Paul Byer - I see you went to the University of CAW - insult someone that disagrees with you - way to win over the hearts and minds
  358. Donald Wilson from Canada writes: It appears from the comments and dribble above that everyone has forgotten that the Honda or Toyota vehicles sold in Canada and the USA very likely was made in Ontario , by Canadians . Many of the component parts were also made in Ontario . Toyota is expanding production and 90% of that will go to the USA . And they don't need a loan today . Also no one has mentioned that the Detroit 3 have hugh Unfunded pension plans - that 's correct - Unfunded . What government overseer of pension plans let this continue ? Some years back the CPP was like that , but was changed and is gradually becoming a viable long term pension plan - and we are paying for that every tax year . GM in the US have offloaded the pension plan and I expect they will offload the Canadian plan onto the federal government department that does that for plans that go broke . Chrysler will quickly follow . This may happen before GM in the USA goes into Chapter 11 and is liquidated . We will be paying those pensions in the near future . The governments have no security it appears beyond ' warrants ' to buy non voting preferred shares . These are of no value when the bankrupcy happens . The shares themselves might have a little value upon liquidation . Neither do ' warrants ' pay a dividend . Thus it appears we , the taxpayers of Canada , have just made a gift to the Detroit 2 ( Ford has not asked for funds ) , and to the Union workers of GM and Chrysler . Union workers with less than 6 years of seniority had better be looking for a new career very soon .
  359. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: i want to see a poll on this. i bet the CAW would not like the results
    not only should auto execs take pay cuts, CAW STAFF should take pay cuts as well, along with their numbers
  360. martha stewart from Canada writes: So much for the goofy theory that the government could not take action due to the prorogation of the House.

    Contrary to the screams of the dead coalition when it was born, there could not have been any action on the auto industry any earlier. That cover story for their existence - that the CPC was not acting fast enough - was just that - a cover story.

    Although I am not too thrilled about this bailout, especially to privately owned Chrysler, I do not see any other alternative. One can only imagine how bad things would get in Ontario, and thus Canada, if these companies were to go under.

    The CAW definitely needs to get with the program. This industry cannot survive unless they accept the fact that a job with less pay and benefits is better than no job at all.

    Not a great Christmas present for anybody...

    into the zillionairs
  361. Scare Crow from Canada writes: Who is next? Step right up forestry sector. Abitibi should be asking money to keep their mill in NL running. Then the mining, then... I am a libertarian by heart and would like this company to die if they cannot support anything.
    One thing that is clear here is plainly there is no buyers of your cars! We can shovel sackfuls of money to you but in the end it would be of no use. People don't like your car. period.
  362. Chris In POCO from Oh the humanity!!!, Canada writes: Our government sucks... It should be survival of the fittest. Instead, we keep them alive like cancer stricken rats in a laboratory...

    Well, it's only $133.00 for every man woman and child in Canada in order to cover it. That means that this will in fact be carried on the backs of the middle class (yet again). My share is likely to add up to $650.00 given my tax bracket...
  363. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Scare Crow from Canada writes: 'One thing that is clear here is plainly there is no buyers of your cars! We can shovel sackfuls of money to you but in the end it would be of no use. People don't like your car. period.'

    ========================================

    Not true - sales of ALL makes are WAY down, including the likes of Toyota & Honda. The difference is that the Asian car makers are in much better financial shape than the Detroit 3, and therefore more able to weather the storm.
  364. Keith Jones from Balzac, Alberta, writes: Hmmm.....$4 billion to help preserve 140,000 jobs...at $28,500 per job, this is a big price to pay for a band-aid, and a big price to pay for incremental Ontario votes. Not a good idea without a solid plan put forward by the D3 and the CAW.
  365. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: Scare crow: Danny beat us all to it. He expropriated Abitibi(sp?). I heartily agree with your comments.

    I'll add those socialist shovelers of money (the coalition NDP, LPC & Bloc) have plunged us into this morass.

    I want a coalition bailout or loan for all brunettes.
  366. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: I am still amazed by the number of people that think if the auto sector fails and goes bankrupt it would be a good thing. Clearly people have no idea what the effect on the population would be on the loss of 400,000 jobs.

    Find other work you say. Wow, how naive, basically there won't be other work in or anywhere near the towns that rely on that industry as even the small business owners will be forced to close shop or drastically cut back.

    What is it you folks are actually proposing, shutting down entire cities and moving the populations somewhere else? And where would that be, Alberta perhaps. And when the slowdown hits Alberta we move everyone to where?

    If you somehow don't get that the failure of such a major industry is going to impact you drastically, you need to hit the books folks, because economics was not being taught to you correctly. If you think the 4 billion federal and provincial dollars is a bad thing, try to imagine the cost if the auto sector shuts down. It's many times more and you will see the pinch almost immediately no matter where you work.
  367. J. Michael from Canada writes: Keep in mind that this is only a loan. A very high risk loan because obviously other institutions were not prepared to lend the money. A good sign the tax payers will eventually need to pick-up the tab; since government passes all risk onto the tax payers.

    This money could have been invested in public transport with a guaranteed return and with a tangible asset to the community at the end of the day.

    Does it occur to anyone that government have no interest in public transport since it does not feed the GDP index anything like the auto industry?
  368. Liz Hutton from Brantford, Canada writes: 'diane marie from Canada writes

    I recommend two things. Research the meaning of socialism before flinging/parroting the word around. Before you do that, though, take your current and erroneous working definition of the word and ask yourself what it is that you think Mr. Harper is doing &

    Liz Hutton:-- If you're feeling particularly generous, you can also look up the terms democracy, constitutional monarchy, and parliamentary democracy for Freddie Fender. He must have skipped classes that day/week/month.

    Actually you are talking to the wrong person, I believe in free enterprise, low taxes for people and industry, firmly against Nanny State policies, i!!!!!! Harper is stuck because he has a minority government....but if coalition votes down the government on the up coming budget we will appeal to the GG instantly I think so far we have 500,000 people!!! I understand the constitional monarchy etc duhh...but what is wrong is that the coalition was planned either before the election or right after...The voters were betrayed and cheated
  369. J. Michael from Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, - What's worse? 400,000 people making stuff we do not want or need, while using up precious resources; or 400,000 people busy making stuff we do need; stuff that will secure and strengthen our communities.
  370. diane marie from Canada writes: martha stewart:-- The problem is not that a minority government can't get something done under prorogation, but that there is no holding-to-account by the opposition parties. In other words, we have a self-imposed dictatorship extant.

    One point that many overlook. Vehicular equipment is somewhat key to a transportation-dependent economy. There is a national security aspect to having at least some domestic production.
  371. Peter Smith from Canada writes: What is the security for the loans, I doubt they get paid back. Why not issue stock to the government as well so the government can have some say in the running of these companies, like producing an electric vehicles.

    Why the no. of 20% of what the Americans are paying, these are American companies not Canadian. All the head office and high paying jobs are in America not Canada. We are supporting American shareholders and American high end jobs.

    Why not give 4 billion and create our own car company. A company that would be so much in debt. They say the 4 billion is the only the beginning and Canada's share is going to be another 20 billion. I fail to see how this is fair to the Japanese manufacturers who have built plants in Canada.
  372. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: Dianne Marie: Why don't you make a valid point rather than hectoring others? Who made you the grammarian of the board?

    I agree with Liz. Not just because of her name.

    The NDP, LPC and Bloq coalition was a disastrous attempt to grab power. Did we all know that Belgium has just had its 3rd parliamentary failure in about a year. So much for the efficacy of coalition governments.

    Only Jack, Gilles and Michael would think a coaltion is good for Canada. Oh, and their followers (some).
  373. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    The only question worth discussing is the folllowing one;

    Considering how much hatred conservatives have for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living-wages, anything near Toronto....

    Will conservatives support their PM now that he has been owned by the Liberals??

    LOL!!!!
  374. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>McGuinty: 'What the Prime Minister and I are saying today is that those people and their jobs are worth fighting for.'

    Well that's very nice of you Dalton.

    McGuinty may think their jobs are worth fighting for, and Stephen Harper may think their jobs are worth fighting for, but do the auto executives and union workers think their jobs are worth fighting for?

    Given what's been going on at GM, Ford and Chrysler for the past 40 years, I'd say the answer to that question is a big fat NO!
  375. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: I am still amazed by the number of people that think if the auto sector fails and goes bankrupt it would be a good thing. Clearly people have no idea what the effect on the population would be on the loss of 400,000 jobs.... What is it you folks are actually proposing... economics was not being taught to you correctly...' --- Norm... listen, very carefully, and write this down for future reference: those jobs are LOST, no matter what. Those jobs are LOST. Those companies are BANKRUPT, no matter what. Those companies are BANKRUPT!!! Without vision and without development plans, as they are, they have no future. NONE. They are as good as DEAD. CORPSES: DRY SKIN AND BONES. --- The Canadian economy needs to be RESTRUCTURED and DIVERSIFIED. In other words, Canada needs to take its place in the world as a whole, instead of playing the part of the number 1 parasite of the US. --- Canada cannot survive economically in any other way.I hope you understand. --- Therefore stop being amazed and think. Open your eyes, observe and think hard. --- Think hard and act accordingly because this country is running out of time. The party is over. Back to reality 101. --- See if you can attend one of those courses.

  376. reason passion from Canada writes: Liz Hutton - And what is your source for your claim that the Coalition was planned either before or right after the election? Oh yeah, Stephen Harper said so, therefore you must believe. If you really understood and respected Parliamentary democracy, then you'd realize that in any minority situation, a coalition is possible, constitutional, and legal. Just because you and half a million Canadians willing to sign your silly petition don't like the rules by which the game is played, doesn't and won't make a wit of difference. One person, one vote. Yours doesn't count for any more than than those who voted for the Coalition parties.
  377. Peter Smith from Canada writes: Harper and the Conservatives need a lesson in running the economy. Now they may discover why Martin had generous contingencies built in his budget projections, SO WE DIDN'T GO INTO DEFICIT. Harper preferred razor thin margins in his budget projections.

    Economies always go into recession and it was obvious that we were do for one coming up and Harper FAILED to realize and adjust so we had a Balanced Budget.

    Watch out for years of pain and discomfort in order to pay for the Conservatives mistakes so we balance the budget.
  378. reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Smith - You're right. Harper supporters like to point out that he's a trained economist...Sadly, the man's never been anything but a career politician all his life. He hasn't got a clue where the economy is concerned. Politics is all the 'brilliant strategist' knows how to do, and as the past few months have shown, he ain't very good at that either.
  379. JM Moulin from county of york, Canada writes: $52 million in interest income for 100 day loan. Not bad work Mr. Harper LLP. Keep up these efforts and Bay street bankers are out of work.

    Cost of K for gov't of canada: <0.5%
    Ir for big 3: 5.3%
    480 point spread. Mr. Nixon are you looking over your shoulder yet?

    The world is changing. Do u k2?
  380. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .
    >>The only question worth discussing is the folllowing one;
    >>Considering how much hatred conservatives have for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living-wages, anything near Toronto....
    >>Will conservatives support their PM now that he has been owned by the Liberals??

    Dave, their is one big problem with your question.

    You see, the Conservative party does not have and never has had hatred for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living wages and anything near Toronto.

    That's just made up partisan hack nonsense continually repeated by the Liberals and NDP in the hope that if you tell a lie enough times people will actually start to believe it.
  381. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: those jobs are LOST, no matter what. Those jobs are LOST. Those companies are BANKRUPT, no matter what. Those companies are BANKRUPT!!! Without vision and without development plans, as they are, they have no future. NONE. They are as good as DEAD. CORPSES: DRY SKIN AND BONES. ---

    ---------------------

    Not only does this clown think that by annoyingly repeating something twice in a row makes it true - but that he has complete inside knowledge into what the auto companies have planned.

    What an embarrasment to conservatives everywhere this clown is.
  382. John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: Peter Smith from Canada writes: Harper and the Conservatives need a lesson in running the economy. Now they may discover why Martin had generous contingencies built in his budget projections, SO WE DIDN'T GO INTO DEFICIT. Harper preferred razor thin margins in his budget projections.

    Economies always go into recession and it was obvious that we were do for one coming up and Harper FAILED to realize and adjust so we had a Balanced Budget.

    Watch out for years of pain and discomfort in order to pay for the Conservatives mistakes so we balance the budget.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yup, that neocon, right-wing, Republican-friendly Dalton McGuinty i at it again. McGuinty is obviously just a Bush-America puppet.
  383. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    Dave, their is one big problem with your question.

    You see, the Conservative party does not have and never has had hatred for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living wages and anything near Toronto.

    ----------------------------------

    Nice try Peter - you've been drinking way too much kool-aid. To anyone who isn't brain-washed like you are, it's very obvious that the conservative party has a hatred hard-on for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living wages and anything near Toronto.
  384. Joe Btfsplk from toronto, Canada writes: Maybe four billion dollars would be better spent kick-starting a new car from the ground up.

    Why do we blindly follow the US lead?

    They brought us to this point.
  385. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Donald Wilson from Canada writes: It appears from the comments and dribble above that everyone has forgotten that the Honda or Toyota vehicles sold in Canada and the USA very likely was made in Ontario , by Canadians . Many of the component parts were also made in Ontario . Toyota is expanding production and 90% of that will go to the USA . And they don't need a loan today . Also no one has mentioned that the Detroit 3 have hugh Unfunded pension plans - that 's correct - Unfunded . What government overseer of pension plans let this continue ? Some years back the CPP was like that , but was changed and is gradually becoming a viable long term pension plan - and we are paying for that every tax year . GM in the US have offloaded the pension plan and I expect they will offload the Canadian plan onto the federal government department that does that for plans that go broke . Chrysler will quickly follow . This may happen before GM in the USA goes into Chapter 11 and is liquidated . We will be paying those pensions in the near future . The governments have no security it appears beyond ' warrants ' to buy non voting preferred shares . These are of no value when the bankrupcy happens . The shares themselves might have a little value upon liquidation . Neither do ' warrants ' pay a dividend . Thus it appears we , the taxpayers of Canada , have just made a gift to the Detroit 2 ( Ford has not asked for funds ) , and to the Union workers of GM and Chrysler . Union workers with less than 6 years of seniority had better be looking for a new career very soon .
    _________________________________________

    Sorry but there are no factsin you rant.

    The pension funds are as funded as they are supposed to be under government regulations.

    You are confused about the US deal.
  386. alex mackay from Vancouver, Canada writes: These companies looked like they would fall hard years ago.

    We should let them fail and save tax payer money.

    They failed in the marketplace.

    They failed their workers.

    They failed to show an iota of corporate responsibility, building bigger trucks in the face of climate change.
  387. John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .
    The only question worth discussing is the folllowing one;
    Considering how much hatred conservatives have for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living-wages, anything near Toronto....
    Will conservatives support their PM now that he has been owned by the Liberals??

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I agree. There is no rigth-wing, neocon politician with more hatred for the GTA then Dalton McGuinty. That's why he's pictured above with PM Harper. McGuinty must be stopped or he will turn Ontario into a US state. Obvously, McGuinty has a hidden, right-wing agenda that is closely tied to the Bush-Rove Repubican Party.
  388. diane marie from Canada writes: elizabeth and liz:-- Mr. Harper's province-by-province machinations and vote-buying attempts to earn a majority notwithstanding, majority governments are going to be almost impossible to earn the 'natural way'. This means that until Canadians adopt an electoral system other than first-past-the-post, they will require mature governance. There is nothing illegal about a coalition, nor do voters have to vote for one (else they'd be voting for something called the Coalition Party of Canada - another CPC) in order to be able to place their trust in such an arrangement.

    Unfortunately, Mr. Harper couched his response to a possible coalition in terms more suited to the discussion of armed insurrection or traitorous plotting. It suited him to appeal to the ignorance and fears of the rabble, not to mention their short-term memory, and you both appear to have bought what Mr. Harper was selling. There is a reason why our political arrangements are quite difficult to change in the short term and that is so that we are protected from instability.
  389. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Comments closed... Not only does this clown think that by annoyingly repeating something twice in a row makes it true - but that he has complete inside knowledge into what the auto companies have planned. What an embarrasment to conservatives everywhere this clown is. --- You Jansen nerd, why don't you tell all of us what those companies have planned? Both the US Congress and Senate would so much like so much to know (contrary to that Canadian conservative lot) that they are even prepared to listen to a nobody like yourself. -- Go for it, Dave, tell us what those PLANS are, with a special emphasis on their PLANS for Canada. Tell u$, Dave, we are all ear$. Tell u$, we're the one$ paying for that non$en$e,after all!
  390. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: i want to see a poll on this. i bet the CAW would not like the results
    not only should auto execs take pay cuts, CAW STAFF should take pay cuts as well, along with their numbers
    ________________________

    Derek

    CAW staff are paid from union dues.

    Their salaries are defined in the CAW constitution, a public document.

    I'm not disagreeing about them sharing any cuts but they are not the fat cats here.
  391. John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Smith - You're right. Harper supporters like to point out that he's a trained economist...Sadly, the man's never been anything but a career politician all his life. He hasn't got a clue where the economy is concerned. Politics is all the 'brilliant strategist' knows how to do, and as the past few months have shown, he ain't very good at that either.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think that the neocon, right-winger Dalton McGuinty is behind all this. He obviously has a hidden agenda to turn Ontario into another American state. There should be no doubt now that McGuinty's policies are a mirror of the Bush administration.
  392. Tor Hill from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar writes:

    ''You see, the Conservative party does not have and never has had hatred for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living wages and anything near Toronto.

    That's just made up partisan hack nonsense continually repeated by the Liberals and NDP in the hope that if you tell a lie enough times people will actually start to believe it''

    Now that is one the neatest 180-degree spins I have ever seen. Where do you think CPC is getting most of its mileage from, if not from the CPC-directed strategy to divide the nation like it's never been divided before?
  393. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    For every job saved in the auto industry
    A conservative goes nuts with anger and rage
  394. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: To anyone who isn't brain-washed like you are, it's very obvious that the conservative party has a hatred hard-on for the middle-class, Ontario, unions, car companies, living wages and anything near Toronto.

    Just like I said, you tell a lie enough times in the hope that people will actually start to believe it. That's twice from you in just a few minutes.

    Congratulations, you are a good partisan hack Liberal. Tow that party line.
  395. Liz Hutton from Brantford, Canada writes: ' Liz Hutton - And what is your source for your claim that the Coalition was planned either before or right after the election?'

    I read it in the news there was an article about it ....I just have to find it
  396. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: i want to see a poll on this. -- No poll because the results would not please those gentlemen! --- Polls do not exist to know facts, they exist to manufacture consent... 'under freedom'.
  397. John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: elizabeth and liz:-- Mr. Harper's province-by-province machinations and vote-buying attempts to earn a majority notwithstanding, majority governments are going to be almost impossible to earn the 'natural way'.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Oh, I see now. That's why he and Dalton McGuinty are doing this together. I have always suspected that McGuinty was an uber right-wing pol with a hidden agenda. McGuinty is obviously just towing the line of the Bush administration.
  398. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Tell u$, Dave, we are all ear$. Tell u$, we're the one$ paying for that non$en$e,after all!

    ------------------

    Is the 's' broken on your keyboard??

    LOL!!!!! What a loser!!!!
  399. Zarko Budisavljevic from Canada writes: dear (my) honesty is the (only) policy.....how do i get a job like yours?..it seems to be interesting work....you are employed by the CAW aren't you?.....to provide disinformation and mocking statements to the majority of canadians who do not work in the auto industry.....i'm sure you're celebrating now that some government cash is about to make it's way into your hands....gee, this might extend your propaganda consulting gig until, let's se, at least march 31!
  400. joe kolo from Canada writes: with the money, the companies can use this cash to shut down and pay out lucratrive severance packages to themselves and union memebers, a win for the CAW and management, and a loss for the taxpayers and all other workers in other industries that don't get the special perks the CAW get. It's amazing how CAW has so much control of the government, oh ya maybe it's from giving big money to special interests group to preasure the government, looks like paying politicians off finally pays off.
    Disappointed in our elected officials but that shouldn't surprise me, it's not their money their giving away.
  401. John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes: I wonder what Shempo and the iberal party of Ontario are going to have to say about this. Who are we kidding? It doesn't matter what they say because they will be voting for the budget anyways...lol...
  402. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Peter Smith from Canada writes:.... I fail to see how this is fair to the Japanese manufacturers who have built plants in Canada.
    _________________________________________

    They got theirs from the governments here when they built the plants and they got theirs at home, big time. (Google japan auto subsidies)
  403. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Tor Hill from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar writes: Now that is one the neatest 180-degree spins I have ever seen. Where do you think CPC is getting most of its mileage from, if not from the CPC-directed strategy to divide the nation like it's never been divided before?

    Now that's funny.

    The Liberals under Cretin won majority after majority by taking all 99 seats in Ontario and virtually no seats west of Ontario, and now you tell me that the CPC strategy is to divide the nation like it's never been divided before.

    Too funny.
  404. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    Congratulations, you are a good partisan hack Liberal. Tow that party line.

    -----------------

    Funny how anytime someone sets the conservatives straight, they're always accused of being a 'liberal' - as if 35% of the vote didn't go for other parties.... I guess when you are sooooo obsessed with hatred towards everything, you simply assume everyone is a liberal. Have it repeated to you often enough at the con brain-washing conventions and you start believing it I guess!
  405. reason passion from Canada writes: Liz Hutton - What you no doubt read was a news report about the Conservative Party's spin on the 'timing and motives' of the Coalition arrangement. Seems to me the Harper Throne Speech was passed by a majority of MPs. If they'd been in talks about a Coalition, that would have been the time to act. But do go ahead and look for that article. I'm sure it'll be enlightening for all of us.
  406. Stephano Daliwal from Canada writes: Now that the backbone of their prosperity has been proven to be phony, autoworkers are still demanding a fix to maintain their addiction. Typical withdrawal symptoms: give us more money while we drive the companies companies into the ground with our inefficient performance, over priced wages and benefits.

    The sad truth is, once we arise from our slumber we'll be facing a mountain of debt. Indeed, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

    Truly delusional: Harper and McGuinty.
  407. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: Dianne Marie: I wasn't speaking for Liz. I happen, however, to agree with her remarks.

    The coalition whilst 'legal' was a power grab by a cabal of losers. Please advise which western country has had sucess with a coalition.

    Long standing sucess, that is, not months.
  408. diane marie from Canada writes: Liz Hutton:-- More than one source is always a good thing.
  409. Where's the Beef from London, Canada writes: There was a I time when I used to hold my nose and accept that in order to get good financial management in the Federal Government I was going to have to accept the fact that it came from Harpie and his hidden agenda social conservatives. Now that Harpie has clearly shown he is liar on nearly every issue going into last election, can we ever trust him with a majority? Not if women like to have a vote or be able to show their faces in public, not if our children are hoping to read anything other than religious texts in school.

    This guy is a disaster of historic proportions and hope the history books treat him accordingly. Bush-Harper, how did North America survive (or we don't). Please call an election January 26th so we can send you back to oblivion.
  410. Liz Hutton from Brantford, Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes'you both appear to have bought what Mr. Harper was selling.'

    No we are not as daft as you think....It is people like you, trying to impress people by your big words etc but it won't fly....

    Harper is right...now he is bending for the sake of us voters (I wish he wouldn't) and everyone who opposes Harper and the conservatives can't stand it....
  411. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: They got theirs from the governments here when they built the plants and they got theirs at home, big time. (Google japan auto subsidies)

    --------------------------------

    People forget so quickly don't they. Towns and cities were bending over backwards to offer tax incentives to these foreign companies to open in thier municipalities. The feds and provinces were all too willing to cast tax dollars and tax breaks to these companies just to have them open here. And absolutely, they are also getting subsidies in thier home markets as well where they have the same economic downturn.

    It's unfortunate that the memory of some is so selective.
  412. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Zarko Budisavljevic from Canada writes: dear (my) honesty is the (only) policy.....how do i get a job like yours?..it seems to be interesting work....you are employed by the CAW aren't you?.....to provide disinformation and mocking statements to the majority of canadians who do not work in the auto industry.....i'm sure you're celebrating now that some government cash is about to make it's way into your hands....gee, this might extend your propaganda consulting gig until, let's se, at least march 31!
    ________________________________________

    Sorry.... guess again

    With your low level of comments here I don't expect much from you.

    I am informed on the industry though unlike many here.
  413. stan bowles II from Winnipeg, Canada writes: I will never ever ever buy a car from the 'big' three again. I know none of my family ever will or my friends. And I am encouraging every person I meet and talk to about this to NEVER again buy from them. This amounts to stealing of taxpayer money. Ford/GM/Chevrolet you are common thieves in bed with the unions, destined to fail.
  414. The Lanark Centrist from Canada writes: Dave Jansen....just another of Funny Old Vern's persona. A waste of time trying to debate him :-)

    A waste trying to debate Diane Marie too, but at least she has the odd intelligent tid bit to offer :-)
  415. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Funny how anytime someone sets the conservatives straight, they're always accused of being a 'liberal' - as if 35% of the vote didn't go for other parties....

    Well of course, they are in a coalition now, right? One big happy Liberal family, united under Dion.....or is it Iggy now? No matter, Iggy is sure to go 'pop' any day now, just like Dion.

    And as far as setting someone straight goes, I can't stop laughing long enough to type in a response to that one.

    By the way, if the NDP and Bloc are now in a coalition with the Liberals, does that make them eligible for some of those brown paper bags filled with cash?
  416. reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar - Ontarians make up over 30% of the population of Canada. Ontario and Quebec make up over 50% of the population of Canada. Alberta makes up 10% of the population of Canada. Central Canadians might easily be persuaded that there's something wrong with the righteous right Reformers from the West imposing their will on everyone else. And it won't matter how much you stamp your feet and scream and cry about it. To conclude, I just want to remind everyone that Stephen Harper is a career politician who's never had a real job in his life.
  417. The Lanark Centrist from Canada writes: reason passion...... Whacko Jacko was on Mike Duffy Live telling how they'd ( Him and Gilles) planned this thing well in advance.... then it was just a matter of bringing Dion on board ( which was easy as they told him he'd be PM) He'd have done almost anything to be PM for awhile :-)
  418. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: stan bowles II from Winnipeg, Canada writes: I will never ever ever buy a car from the 'big' three again. I know none of my family ever will or my friends. And I am encouraging every person I meet and talk to about this to NEVER again buy from them. This amounts to stealing of taxpayer money. Ford/GM/Chevrolet you are common thieves in bed with the unions, destined to fail.

    ---------------------------------------

    Right. Never going to buy Canadian beef again, never going to buy Canadian lumber again, never going to buy anything made with Canadian mine products, never going to buy fish...... Do you really think this is a wise strategy, I mean the governments (feds, provinces, municipal...) have been giving incentives, tax breaks, subsidies, bailouts etc... to various companies and corporations for decades. We're supposed to believe that the solution is to no longer buy thier products? Sadly it seems there are quite a few making these rather stupid claims.
  419. reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar - Let's not forget that it was a Conservative PM, one Brian Mulroney, who was in the habit of accepting cash in brown paper bags - or envelopes as the case may be. Can't wait for the Oliphant inquiry to get to the sordid bottom of it all. Too bad Steve didn't get his majority before having to weather that coming storm.
  420. Zarko Budisavljevic from Canada writes: dear 'my own ego is the best policy'......LMAO....i've read through your many posts and responses...other than attempting to look unbiased by directing folks to other 'impartial' articles, you are clearly a strong union supporter, and as such, your comments are so biased that they can't be taken any more seriously than those of the union bashers who also post here....time for the great majprity of canadians who are neither lovers or haters of unions to be heard....i number myself among them and will leave you with this.... where can i go to get a 'loan', and only have to present a business plan 3 months down the road? ....that's what many of my neighbours, clients and friends are asking
  421. Jason Roy from Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    Congratulations, you are a good partisan hack Liberal. Tow that party line.

    -----------------

    Funny how anytime someone sets the conservatives straight, they're always accused of being a 'liberal' - as if 35% of the vote didn't go for other parties.... I guess when you are sooooo obsessed with hatred towards everything, you simply assume everyone is a liberal. Have it repeated to you often enough at the con brain-washing conventions and you start believing it I guess!

    -----------------------------

    Since I remember you shouting from the rooftops over your support for Dion and the Green Shift, not to mention posts in new found awe of Iggy that would probably make you a Liberal...for the time being anyway.
  422. bob london from Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar = and why does 70 percent get f&7&ed; over for the 30% all the time? Ontario is still on the government bottle and has not moved to pablum.
  423. The Lanark Centrist from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy is another of the persona. This dude just gets off on argueing.... we see him on as 1 name or another almost 24 hours a day.... doesn't have any other life...sad.
  424. dave charlston from toronto, Canada writes: and no money for honda and toyota? hmmmmmmmmm
  425. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar - Ontarians make up over 30% of the population of Canada. Ontario and Quebec make up over 50% of the population of Canada. Alberta makes up 10% of the population of Canada.

    And which two provinces are now the only ones paying more into the equalization scheme than they get out?

    >>I just want to remind everyone that Stephen Harper is a career politician who's never had a real job in his life.

    By reading how upset many people are in this forum regarding the auto bailout, it may be fair to say that a career CAW worker has never had a real job in his life either.
  426. joe kolo from Canada writes: It's unfortunate that the government bails out the CAW while other industries struggle, forest industry, steel industry, fishing industry, mining,and the rest of the businesses that I missed that didn't and won't get funding. The Silverado and F100 were the big 3's biggest sellers, #2 and #1, how are they going to improve sales? I own a Big 3 vehicle for the last time! Unless something major changes ie. a new company, they won't get my money, but the way where is my rebate for buying my vehicle 2 years ago, I'll be needing it for repairs as it's already showing it's age.
  427. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: The Lanark Centrist from Canada writes: .... we see him on as 1 name or another almost 24 hours a day.... doesn't have any other life...sad.

    ----------------

    And you have a life because you are always reading his stuff and apparently track it all too?
  428. bruno tomassini from Canada writes: Was it not Preston Manning, founder of the Reform Party, later joined by Harper that wanted an all inclusive Canada, that is including 'separatists' form Quebec?

    Come on Reformers. What do you want to reform now?...ah just forgot...suspending Parliament is reform!

    cheers!
  429. reason passion from Canada writes: Lanark Centrist - The Bloc is not part of the Coalition, has only committed to supporting it should it take the Harper minority down. Just like the Bloc supported and helped pass scores of Conservative bills in the last Parliament. So what you're saying is that the NDP and the Bloc were in early talks about a Coalition. The Liberals weren't, and without them, there would be no Coalition - a may not be going forward.
  430. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: joe kolo from Canada writes: It's unfortunate that the government bails out the CAW while other industries struggle, forest industry, steel industry, fishing industry, mining,and the rest of the businesses that I missed that didn't and won't get funding.

    -------------------------

    Were you born just yesterday? All of the industries you mentioned have at one time or another received bailout money in one form or another. BTW the government isn't bailing out the CAW, it's bailing out the auto companies.
  431. evelyn robinson from Canada writes: Merry christmas scrooges.
  432. Garibaldi III from TO from Canada writes: John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 -
    Obvously, McGuinty has a hidden, right-wing agenda that is closely tied to the Bush-Rove Repubican Party.
    ---------------
    It's called bankrupting the province/country into submission.

    And;
    Like Harper, he was barely the better of the worst.

    Also it's to Harper's advantage to keep McGuinty in power. Ontario voters don't like same party in power provincially and federally.
    Cheers
  433. reason passion from Canada writes: Peter Wojnar - Ontario pays far more into federal coffers than almost all of the other provinces combined. And proportionally gets far less in federal spending. That Ontario is a have-not province is semantics, nothing more. Having said that, provinces are an anachronistic waste of tax dollars, and unnecessarily divide Canadians along parochial lines that contribute nothing to our quality of life. We should have a national government and municipalities.
  434. Charles Wirrell from Vancouver, B.C., Canada writes: I hope that the CAW making concessions is part of the conditions to the companies receiving my tax dollars.

    This does NOT impress me!

    I hope that Ontario is forking over a significant portion of the funds as well as this is an Ontario issue more than elsewhere.
  435. diane marie from Canada writes: elizabeth vann:-- Well, let me try to put this in the simplest of terms such that I won't be suspected of trying to impress fellow posters. Would your definition of long-standing success include four elections, at a cost of $300 million each, in just eight years? Would you consider that these futile attempts at accomplishing a majority stability-producing? Capable of encouraging long-term policy?
  436. Peter Smith from Canada writes: Enough of my tax money going to the Yanks and supporting their pensions and corporate head offices. What security did the government get for the loans?
  437. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Dear Diane Marie , stop posting stupid arguments on this blog using big words in incoherent sentences. Honestly don't you have anything better to do than to carry on conversations with strangers who think your your weird.
  438. R M from Canada writes: The Lanark Centrist from Canada writes: reason passion...... Whacko Jacko was on Mike Duffy Live telling how they'd ( Him and Gilles) planned this thing well in advance.... then it was just a matter of bringing Dion on board ( which was easy as they told him he'd be PM) He'd have done almost anything to be PM for awhile :-)

    We already know they planned it well in advance because they had Stephen Harper signed up to pull the same thing on Paul Martin a few years ago but it fell apart before they could pull it off.

    That's politics.

    What,s your point?
  439. reason passion from Canada writes: RM - That's exactly my point.
  440. Garibaldi III from TO from Canada writes: The Un-Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Dear Diane Marie , Keep posting good arguments on this blog using coherent sentences. Honestly, Thank You for carrying on conversations with strangers who think highly of You.
    -----------
    :-)
  441. Peter Kells from Bytown, Canada writes: In all fairness, support packages should be offered to Honda, Toyota and anyone else building automobiles in Canada. Government support should be spread equally across the industry, not just to specific companies.
  442. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Charles Wirrell from Vancouver, B.C., Canada writes: I hope that the CAW making concessions is part of the conditions to the companies receiving my tax dollars.

    This does NOT impress me!

    I hope that Ontario is forking over a significant portion of the funds as well as this is an Ontario issue more than elsewhere.
    __________________________________________

    Try reading the article before posting.
  443. Ken Woodwords from Canada writes: Keep beating the bushes and pointing fingers. The facts are:
    1) Over the years D3 dug their own grave by taking customers for granted and destroyed their brand name.
    2) Taxpayer's money is wasted by our self serving politicians. The money infusion will not change the outcome. Jobs will be lost, manufacturing streamlined, and factories will be closed or moved to Mexico.
    3) We kept and still keeping a blind eye on outsourcing of our well paying jobs into China and India. We lost a lot of well paying engineering design and know how in technology.

    When we wake up it will be too late.
  444. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: Dianne Marie: Just answer my question. It was about coalitions. And those which are long lived. In todays terms that would be about 30-40 years.

    As far a simple goes, I do resent, on behalf of simple people like I, your attitude.

    Signed a red necked old Victoria lady.

    Read some history books. Look outside Canada. There is a world out there.

    Abientot.
  445. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada we ALL know that the cost is $73/hr TOTAL compensation. So stop with the crap.
  446. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: This is a direct result of not giving Harper a majority.

    Thanks go out to the ABC crew, especially Danny Screaming Puffin Williams and the other crew, Margaret Atwood and the Separatists.

    Way to go eastern canada, you really taught Harper a lesson. I don't remember a bailout for the West after truedough did his NEP.

    THE WEST STANDS ALONE.
  447. Lee Hiller from Winnipeg, Canada writes: $4 billion of our tax dollars will only temporarily extend the misery of the terminally ailing North American auto industry.
  448. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada we ALL know that the cost is $73/hr TOTAL compensation. So stop with the crap.
    _____________________________

    MARKET MOVERS
    by Felix Salmon

    Nov 18 2008 10:49pm EST
    The Return of the $70 Per Hour Meme

    You might expect it from right-leaning commentators like Will Wilkinson. You wouldn't expect it from someone like Mark Perry, who lives in Flint, Michigan. And you certainly wouldn't expect to see it in the New York Times, from the likes of Andrew Ross Sorkin. But all of them are perpetuating the meme that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs.

    It's not true.

    The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

    Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply. But anybody who uses it as a rhetorical device suggesting that US car companies are run inefficiently is being disingenuous. As of 2007, the UAW represented 180,681 members at Chrysler, Ford and General Motors; it also represented 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses. If you take the costs associated with 721,025 individuals and then divide those costs by the hours worked by 180,681 individuals, you're going to end up with a very large hourly rate. But it won't mean anything, unless you're trying to be deceptive.
  449. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada we ALL know that the cost is $73/hr TOTAL compensation. So stop with the crap.
    __________________________________________________

    theglobeandmail.com
  450. double mike from Canada writes: .
    Oh, whatever. If the government thinks I'm reacher than Cerberus, who am I to argue?
    .
  451. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada we ALL know that the cost is $73/hr TOTAL compensation. So stop with the crap.
    __________________________________________

    Get facts instead of insults.
  452. Brian NAV from Daytona, United States writes: Buy a North American made vehicle and keep the money here rather than sending to Japan, korea and Germany.
  453. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Elizabeth Vann you are spending to much of your time off-topic. You and Diane should get together for tea or take a course in political science.
  454. reason passion from Canada writes: neil b - Regardless of the Conservative mantra, Alberta is not 'The West'. Alberta is 10% of the population of Canada. And it's had its bailout in tax subsidies to the oil sands that the other 90% of Canadians have financed. And in other federal tax spending since the western separatist Stephen Harper gained his first minority. If the West stands alone, as you say, it is only in its monotheistic adherence to and support of one political party, nationally and provincially.
  455. bruno tomassini from Canada writes: Harper is a divisive person...western Canada deserves better that Harper.

    The sooner the Cons coalition (Reformers plus old Harris leftover) get rid of Harper the better it is for everyone.

    cheers!
  456. reason passion from Canada writes: Bob London - one person, one vote, that's democracy.
  457. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Hey Bruno. Merry Christmas, but respectfully you are so wrong!
  458. R S from Canada writes: I can't believe what I am reading. I honestly thought that being an autoworker, going to work everyday, doing my job with quality being number 1 in my mind, wanting my company to be successful, paying my taxes...........was the right thing to do in life. But obviously I'm supposed to work for far less than what I make now and be thankful that I have a job while I visit the local foodbank to feed my family.............the one that I supported just last week with my $250 food hamper donation, not to mention the weekly contributions to United Way, the daily contributions of coins in the buckets of charities at our gates wanting coins so they can make ends meet (it's called a tag-day), the coats for kids campaign............there are so many more things we do for the people of Windsor.

    I just don't know how I will do it on half my wage. God help us all. We're going to need it.
  459. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: nick be: Your post was off topic, too. I'm from good old Victoria. We meet for Martinis, not tea.

    I am opposed to the coalition of losers.

    No to bailouts. Period.
  460. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

    THANKYOU! that is my exact point. The bottom line is CAW you are too expensive!
  461. Vanni Di Ponzano from Canada writes: @bruno tomassini: well said! i have been saying this for two months now, we cannot afford to have Harpers around.

    @Brian NAV from Daytona: Toyotas and Hondas are MADE in USA/Canada. The consumer has voted with their money ... NA made but not from the big three ....
  462. bruno tomassini from Canada writes: Bill G...not even Manning trusted Harper... if you are familiar with the Reform history you should know it....now it is obvious on the national scene.

    The sooner westerns wake up the better it is for everyone.

    cheers!
  463. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Elizabeth , I have never been to Victoria BC but I heard it is beautiful, someday I will get there.
  464. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    If the oil sands needed a boost (which based on the plummeting price of oil has a pretty good chance of happening) - Harper would have injected 400 Billion with no strings attached.

    It's a fact.
  465. reason passion from Canada writes: Auto workers earn wages and spend them to the benefit of our economy. They pay taxes like all the rest of us, and will contribute as much to any bailout as their fellow Canadian taxpayers. They've already given concessions to their employers. They are more productive than other countries' auto workers. It is their employers that need to find a profitable path forward.
  466. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: John Smith from Support Ont Bill 93 - Ottawa Bill, Canada writes:
    'There is no right-wing, neocon politician with more hatred for the GTA then Dalton McGuinty. That's why he's pictured above with PM Harper. McGuinty must be stopped or he will turn Ontario into a US state. Obvously, McGuinty has a hidden, right-wing agenda that is closely tied to the Bush-Rove Repubican Party.'

    Hello? The extreme left-wing fringe needs to lay off the booze and pills. They held an election in the US back in November, Bush wasn't even running. Some feller by the name of Barak Obama from the Democratic Party will soon be president. George W. Bush will be gone in 30 days, Rove left long ago. Get over it already.

  467. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    Using conservative fuzzy-math anti-middle-class logic, I earn $750 an hour.

    I figured this out by adding the cost of the building where I work, the future costs of cleaning it. The original construction cost, my boss's salary, and all the paper costs through-out the business.

    $750 is what it costs the company per hour to keep me employed there.

    Conservatives are right, I should be taking a pay-cut. How DARE I make that much.
  468. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    If the oil sands needed a boost (which based on the plummeting price of oil has a pretty good chance of happening) - Harper would have injected 400 Billion with no strings attached.

    It's a fact.

    ===========================================

    'It's a fact.' What do you base THAT on? If it's 'a fact', then it can be proven. Prove away.
  469. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    If the oil sands needed a boost (which based on the plummeting price of oil has a pretty good chance of happening) - Harper would have injected 400 Billion with no strings attached.

    It's a fact.

    ===========================================

    'It's a fact.' What do you base THAT on? If it's 'a fact', then it can be proven. Prove away.

    ------------------------

    Sure. The fact is that Harper will bend over backwards and give the oil companies in Alberta anything in the world. Can you prove otherwise?
  470. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    Using conservative fuzzy-math anti-middle-class logic, I earn $750 an hour.

    I figured this out by adding the cost of the building where I work, the future costs of cleaning it. The original construction cost, my boss's salary, and all the paper costs through-out the business.

    $750 is what it costs the company per hour to keep me employed there.

    Conservatives are right, I should be taking a pay-cut. How DARE I make that much.

    ==========================================

    Are you a civil servant? If you are employed by the private sector, is YOUR company looking for a taxpayer funded handout? If not, THEN I DON'T CARE WHAT IT COSTS YOUR COMPANY TO EMPLOY YOU.

    It's just that simple, Dave.
  471. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: 'Sure. The fact is that Harper will bend over backwards and give the oil companies in Alberta anything in the world. Can you prove otherwise?'

    ============================================

    YOU made the statement, claiming it to be 'a fact'. The burden of proof is YOURS. That's how science and logic works, Dave. And that IS a fact.
  472. IT'S BCFORME from Canada writes: Reason Passion writes: They (auto workers) are more productive than other countries' auto workers. It is their employers that need to find a profitable path forward.

    BS
  473. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    Using conservative fuzzy-math anti-middle-class logic, I earn $750 an hour.

    I figured this out by adding the cost of the building where I work, the future costs of cleaning it. The original construction cost, my boss's salary, and all the paper costs through-out the business.

    $750 is what it costs the company per hour to keep me employed there.

    Conservatives are right, I should be taking a pay-cut. How DARE I make that much.

    ==========================================

    Are you a civil servant? If you are employed by the private sector, is YOUR company looking for a taxpayer funded handout? If not, THEN I DON'T CARE WHAT IT COSTS YOUR COMPANY TO EMPLOY YOU.

    It's just that simple, Dave.

    --------------------------

    Yes, we're looking for a public bail-out so we can further antagonize the conservatives and their sheep supporters. These clowns just HATE the middle-class - we're simply proving that point one Alberta commentator at a time.

    LOL!!!!
  474. reason passion from Canada writes: Dave Jansen - I doubt Harper would pour $400 billion into the oil sands, though given his erratic behaviour of late, your speculation is not unwarranted. Despite the short-term benefits of getting oil sands development going, the long term prospects seem questionable at best. It's expensive, 'dirty' oil that's rapidly losing favour in the US. All the effort that's gone into it and emissions that have come out of it to date will likely be all for naught once drilling starts in the Arctic after a few more years of ice melting.
  475. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: What exactly does this mean:
    'We are doing this on the assumption that we cannot afford either in the United States or Canada a catastrophic short-term collapse,' Mr. Harper said.

    Cannot afford catastophic short term collapse? If it is catastrophic and short term who cares. What does he mean? Does he understand double speak too.
  476. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada - Dave, dude - put the big gagger down, and try to focus. I don't care if the CAW line workers - or YOU for that matter - are paid $200 an hour. I really don't. UNLESS, you and/or they are looking for MY tax money to fund the paycheques. Then I care a LOT.
  477. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    Everytime the TSX bell rings (closing with lower oil prices)
    An Albertan loses their wings

    LOL!!!!!
  478. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason passion, tax subsidies is not a bailout. The feds , way back in the 60's , were offered a piece of the oilsands in the West. They didn't bother with it.

    treudoughs NEP reduced the West to ashes. I saw auctions held during the NEP ,of oilfield companies liquidate ,while their previous owners quietly weeped in the back of the crowd. A lifetime of goodwill and the belief if you work hard and honest you will succeed, flushed down the drain by the lieberals and truedough.

    The lieberals are no longer true to themselves. They are backed by separatists. At one time they were only socialists and communists like tredough. I understand the lieberal mantra of anything is possible. Without common sense though, and full of ego, we have you.
  479. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes:

    Oh I see - suddenly you understand how that works? Funny how you quickly forget that when it comes to actual science on articles about climate change.

    Oh how easy life would be if only I were an Albertan rural-tard like yourself!!!!

    ======================================

    But Dave - YOU'RE the one who told me that I had to prove your idiotic statement - presented as 'a fact' wasn't correct, right?

    'Sure. The fact is that Harper will bend over backwards and give the oil companies in Alberta anything in the world. Can you prove otherwise?'

    You DID post this, correct?
  480. reason passion from Canada writes: ITS BCFORME - Such articulate invective! Boy, am I smarting from that.
  481. J Law from Canada writes: Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    Everytime the TSX bell rings (closing with lower oil prices)
    An Albertan loses their wings

    LOL!!!!!

    And everytime they lose their wings they hitch hike back home to Ontario.
  482. bruno tomassini from Canada writes: All of you talking about facts...the fact is that Harper is a divisive person...just look at his past record and see.

    Wester Canada deserves better that Harper...so do the rest of the Country.

    cheers!
  483. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: neil b from edmonton, Canada writes:
    treudoughs NEP reduced the West to ashes. I saw auctions held during the NEP ,of oilfield companies liquidate ,while their previous owners quietly weeped in the back of the crowd. A lifetime of goodwill and the belief if you work hard and honest you will succeed, flushed down the drain by the lieberals and truedough.

    ------------------------------

    Let's not forget the 4 million Albertans that lost their jobs, or the 62 million that committed suicide, or the 483 billion that lost their homes, or the 90 trillion dollars of lost savings...

    Let's also not forget the unemployment rate in Alberta during the 'worst' years was still lower than almost everywhere else in Canada at the time...

    But hey.... let's keep pretending Trudeau and the NEP were behind the global economic crisis of the 70's and that the global economic crisis in no way, shape, or form played any roll in the slumping economy - without doing so, Albertan history books would be really, really, boring. The poor whittle Albertan-victim-for-infinity-angle is the only way to keep the population voting conservative.
  484. reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - I don't doubt many hopes were dashed when oil went bust back then as it has today, and there's no good for Canada's economy to come of that. Period. Regardless, despite scared Conservative rhetoric, the Liberals aren't any more in league with separatists than Harper has been since winning his first minority. Harper's the one who declared the Quebecois a nation, and he himself is in many ways a separatist – just of another geographic stripe – as are many of his most vociferous supporters.
  485. Liz Hutton from Brantford, Canada writes: ' elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: Dianne Marie: Just answer my question. It was about coalitions. And those which are long lived. In todays terms that would be about 30-40 years.

    As far a simple goes, I do resent, on behalf of simple people like I, your attitude.

    Signed a red necked old Victoria lady.

    Read some history books. Look outside Canada. There is a world out there.

    Abientot. '

    Agreed (but I wish I was either there in BC or in Hinton Alberta where my son lives rather than being stuck in Ontario :-(

    Back to comment .....No worries there will be no Coalition just hope the Conservatives don't bend over any more they already have by this Chrysler/GM bailout...NO More!!!!!Look to the future...jwho cob creation lower payroll taxes/premiums, lower personal taxes, training for people who lost their jobs or who can't find a job...

    But please don't waste more money on temporary government jobs (infrastructure)

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
    Night all
  486. diane marie from Canada writes: elizabeth and Liz:-- No single-party democratic government has lasted 30-40 years, so why would you establish that as a basis for winners (as in, not 'losers') and stability? I can think of a few dictatorships that are that long-lasting - perhaps that's what you both have a closet hankering for.

    Big word, long sentence alert. One of the complaints about Quebec in general and the BQ in particular is that neither wants to participate in the governance of Canada, but seeks only to use the ROC as a milch cow in the furtherance of Quebec's 'national' interests. It seems to me that participation - even on the simple basis of promising to support a government for 18 months - might have been a chance for BQ-voting Quebeckers to take a broader view of Canada.
  487. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: dave janson...you can minimize and trivialize all you like. Your good at that. WE are not victims in the WEST. We are wise enough though, because of truedough and the lieberals, to never let your greedy eastern paws touch our oil ever again. truedoughs NEP TAX (GREEN SHIFT TAX GRAB SCHEME) decimated the West.

    reason passion.... the lieberals owe their existence to the Separatists. Without the Separatists backing, ignatieff wouldn't have the Separatist Coalition in the east to threaten PM Harper with.

    THE WEST STANDS ALONE
  488. diane marie from Canada writes: Sorry. Missed a word. 'It seems to me that coalition participation...etc.'
  489. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: 'One of the complaints about Quebec in general and the BQ in particular is that neither wants to participate in the governance of Canada, but seeks only to use the ROC as a milch cow in the furtherance of Quebec's 'national' interests. It seems to me that coalition participation - even on the simple basis of promising to support a government for 18 months - might have been a chance for BQ-voting Quebeckers to take a broader view of Canada.'

    You had it correct in the first sentence. The remainder is fluffy fantasy. Go read about Quebec since the Quiet Revolution and Federal-Quebec relations, it has not been otherwise. Those who vote BQ will not change.
  490. The Centrist from Canada writes: $4 billion for overpaid unionized auto workers!!!

    can I get a bailout too!!

    Conservative principles BETRAYED. I didn't vote for you to bailout companies which can't compete Harper.
  491. Brett G from Niagara, Canada writes: Neil b, 'THE WEST STANDS ALONE', umm, what are you talking about?
  492. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: 'elizabeth and Liz:-- No single-party democratic government has lasted 30-40 years....'

    That is not correct. The Progressive-Conservative Party in Ontario was in power from 1943 until 1985 and it did provide stable and responsible government during those four decades.
  493. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: nick be: I've been to Toronto. So you should come to Victoria. I'll buy you a Martini and all will rock.

    I do not support the bailout to the D3. And absolutely am against the coalition.

    Merry Christmas.
  494. Git Er Done at Home from Not the Centre of the Universe, Canada writes: Vanni Di Ponzano from Canada writes: @bruno tomassini: well said! i have been saying this for two months now, we cannot afford to have Harpers around.

    @Brian NAV from Daytona: Toyotas and Hondas are MADE in USA/Canada. The consumer has voted with their money ... NA made but not from the big three ....

    According to Cars.com, (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject;=ami&story;=amMade0808&referer;=advice&aff;=national) the vehicles with the most american or north american content are: then how come the vehicles with the most north american content are:
    1. Ford F150
    2. Chevrolet Cobalt
    3. Chevrolet Malibu
    4. Pontiac G6
    5. Toyota Tundra

    Maybe we should start importing our wheat from Asia, or how about beef, or geez, get our banking done there so that north america doesn't have any industry (except Wal Mart - isn't that something to be proud of?).

    If paying them 4 billion to help them turn around saves many times that amount in social assistance (welfare and EI), then it is not such a horrific thing.
  495. reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - The West stands alone as the most mono voting block in Canada and the democratic world. If it's a victim, as you so bitterly complain, it's got no one to blame but itself.
  496. The Centrist from Canada writes: Where oh where did Harper's Conservative principles go?

    Bailing out companies which can't compete and supporting shipbuilding unions; autoworkers unions and overpaid bureaucrats.

    $30 billion of my childrens future GONE for what?? To give to overpaid unionized autoworkers.

    Harper you LOST MY VOTE.
  497. Canadian First from Hazelton, Canada writes: If everybody didn't have to own a car that would do all their thinking for them plus do the dishes at home, maybe we would be able to afford a North American Made Car.

    But no, we all need to drive like a rich Arab Shiek. Well guess what, we are not all rich Arab Shiek's.

    One should watch what one asks for because you just might get it and then find out you cannot afford it.

    The only reason the Auto Industry is in trouble is because too big of a percentage of you posters can not afford to buy a new car. It is you people who are the real problem.

    You have all bartered away your wages to the point you can not now even afford a Bicycle. Way to go guys!
  498. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason?....perhaps you should re-read. We in the WEST are not victims. We are Champions. We took our lumps from the east long ago. We are wiser for it, stronger for it and have outgrown the same old shout coming from the east. You easterners lost your way a long time ago. You took us for granted, in the WEST and basically ignored us for over 30 years. In the mean time, we developed our own culture ,independent of you easterners, long before you realized it.

    We are a proud and honest society that view the imputes of the east as a hindrance to forward thinking. You easterners hold back, you never believe in yourselves. This is why the West must leave. You are stuck in the 60's.

    THE WEST STANDS ALONE!
  499. Dan Zenderman from TO, Canada writes: Call me a doom and gloomer but let's face the inevitable here ..

    This aid package is not going to ' save' the auto sector in Canada ....it is only going to slow down the collapse so it is a controlled implosion rather than a catastrophic implosion . This will buy the govt. time to organize for the anticipated meltdown..

    I believe within a year , we will see the start of much of North Americas automobile manufacturing infrastructure being disassembled and shipped to China.. ( maybe more so in the US..)

    This ' Aid Money ' or ' Loan ' or whatever it is called will disappear into a great black hole never to be seen again the moment it is released from the Governments hand .
  500. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: dave janson...you can minimize and trivialize all you like. Your good at that.

    --------------------

    It's 'you're' not 'your'...

    Albertan schools should spend less time brain-washing with pathetic victimization stories and more time actually educating you. Imagine no oil companies to hire all those grade 8 edumacted folk? Where would all you victims end up?

    LOL!!!!
  501. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: Canadian First from Hazelton, Canada writes: 'The only reason the Auto Industry is in trouble is because too big of a percentage of you posters can not afford to buy a new car. It is you people who are the real problem.'

    Huh? I think you have had too much of the seasonal eggnog this evening. I already bought a new car this past summer, and no, I did not buy from the D3.
  502. reason passion from Canada writes: Centrist - It's quite obvious that Harper's principles didn't go anywhere. He never had any in the first place. He is a career politician, seduced by and seeking power for all of his adult life. Look at the money the man's invested in propaganda to remain in power. His party has a fully equipped television studio in Ottawa - woefully staffed by a bunch of Conservative party amateurs - but a full studio nonetheless. He's vain to the extreme, believing only he knows the right way, and belittling everyone - Conservative or otherwise – who disagrees or challenges his position, using the Big Lie whenever convenient. This is, after all, the same guy who, in our Parliament, gave the same speech in support of the Iraq war as did John Howard scant days before. Sure, he made his speech writer of the time take the fall for that one, but one day he'll be fully brought to account for it and for the many other transgressions of principle he's committed.
  503. Former 2 Time CIBC Staffer from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Amazing... 4 billion dollars of taxpayers' money committed without a single debate or vote in Parliament... I know all the opposition parties are in favour but it would have been nice to see if any individual MP had the guts to oppose it and speak out against it. From my discussions with friends, family and colleagues, most people I know are revolted at this 'bridge loan to nowhere'. This action brings our whole parliamentary democracy into disrepute...
  504. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: Spending our money from Canada writes: 'Do your part,
    Next new car you buy, Buy the car your neighbour built.
    We all win.'

    That is correct - people buy Toyotas made in Ontario.
  505. J Law from Canada writes: It is my understanding that only two governing parties at the federal level in Canada have received more that 50% of the popular vote; one by Trudeau and one by Mulroney. By some of the comments I see on here they think every other governing party was not legally able to govern. What nonsense!

    Just as it is nonsense to think if this coalition defeats the governing party then the G-G will automatically allow them to govern. The instability in the leadership of the major of these minor parties and the fact one party's stated purpose is the break up of Canada then I am lead to believe that won't any time soon.

    Here is another scenerio that could be worrisome: Throw another two parties into the mix and th evote is split except for the Quebec votes who vote wholly Bloc then the Bloc could become the ruling party. Then what?
  506. diane marie from Canada writes: Freddie Fender:-- Elizabeth Vann's challenge was concerning national governments. I'm sure that if you slice-and-dice the constituency small enough...even in purportedly monolithic Alberta (the Alberta of neil b's fantasy) the voting population is not entirely happy with single-party rule, hence the fact that the Alberta PCs attracted a mere 52.6% of the popular vote. In the event that your numeracy is wanting, that's only one in two voters.

    The past may influence the future but it does not dictate it. I believe that this is the underlying basis for Mr. Flanagan's 'incremental conservatism' shtick. If a population, any population, is incapable of change (as you suggest), then your enthusiasm for the Afghanistan mission is entirely misplaced.
  507. reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - Again with the victimization complex. Big bad easterners ignored the poor west. The west grew strong and developed a forward-looking, honest culture despite being held back and trampled upon by the backward east...What's next? The rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air? An independent Alberta would be but a Canadian Kuwait. That's not in the interests of Albertans nor Canadians.
  508. David Bakody from Dartmouth, Canada writes: Git Er Done at Home from Not the Centre of the Universe, Canada:

    Your point is well taken..... most if not all the assets of the once mighty US of A have been sold off.... with a National debt reaching $11,000,000,000,000 (Trillion) financed at 19% and new deficit of another Trillion and no end in sight for Iraq & Afghanistan financed at 30%.... all couched it destructive effects of global warming that they are unable to repair something has to give..... Look East.... far East for the new world order.... Harper and Co now know they sunk Canada by jumping on Bushes Winds of War Neoconservative band wagon.... which was 'Democracy by Force' and Let the free market place run the world and all will be fine..... any educated person knows there must be rules and regulations set by government that puts the people first ...... not big business.... and the WTO is the biggest of them all... the word is they want only 5 super automobile plants to service the world.... and they will control everything to do with the industry.... it is not will ...... it is when?
  509. martha stewart from Canada writes: diane marie writes: 'One of the complaints about Quebec in general and the BQ in particular is that neither wants to participate in the governance of Canada, but seeks only to use the ROC as a milch cow in the furtherance of Quebec's 'national' interests. It seems to me that participation - even on the simple basis of promising to support a government for 18 months - might have been a chance for BQ-voting Quebeckers to take a broader view of Canada.'

    Except that the Bloc has no interest in taking or promoting that broader view, and that was definitely not why the said they would support the dead coalition. Duceppe duped Dion and Layton. He killed the coalition in the ROC himself when he announced that it would be good for his objectives. One can just imagine the stunts Duceppe would have pulled if that fiasco had gone forward.

    And one can imagine what the CAW/NDP coalition partners would be doing to muck up this bailout!

    Harper specifically bashed the 'separatists.' That may serve to wake up the sleeping PQ federalists and, with memories of what the coalition almost did, one wonders if they could ever vote for the LPC or NDP now.

    The coalition is so dead.
  510. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: d;ianne marie: plse answer my question. Do not try to speak for me.

    Coalition is bad. Cabal of losers is disgusting.
  511. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    neil b from edmonton, Canada writes:...THE WEST STANDS ALONE!
    ______________________________

    You forgot to add in public spending per capita

    Welcome to socialist paradise .....Alberta!
  512. reason passion from Canada writes: Former 2 time - You're right. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the merits of this action, it hasn't been put to the elected representatives in Ottawa nor Ontario. It's a huge investment, and the people we've elected to oversee the investment of all of our tax dollars haven't been given the opportunity to exercise the power we all conferred to do so. There are too many instances of executive decision-making in our democracy. This is a hugely expensive example.
  513. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes:
    Total waste of money, and I say that as one of the 400,000 people working in the automotive industry in Ontario that McGuinty claims he is helping. Our company won't see a dime of this. If anything some of the money might go to our competitors placing us at a disadvantage.
  514. diane marie from Canada writes: martha stewart:-- The BQ has maintained no interest in the broader view because it hasn't had to have one. At the moment, the LPC is in disarray in Quebec and the CPC has shot itself in the foot there (spurning Mr. Mulroney's Rolodex, Reform/Alliance attitudes that don't resonate, choosing fear-mongering about separatists over facing the HOC, etc.). However, the BQ was facing its own mortality until Mr. Harper screwed up.

    In the tough times we face, the 'lucides' Quebec view will be that the milch cow can only be milked if it isn't on its death bed. Quebeckers are nothing if not pragmatists. THIS coalition might be dead, but the perfectly reasonable concept of a coalition is not. Having been introduced to the idea of one, the public needs time to contemplate it. THIS coalition was easily shot down by the CPC's war room, but other ones might not be so easily dismissed, especially if Mr. Harper continues with his bizarre economic gyrations.
  515. diane marie from Canada writes: elizabeth vann:-- I couldn't possibly pretend to speak for you.
  516. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason passion....thanks again for your critique of Western Culture. Your idea of revisionist history only happens in qbeck and amongst liberal crew members in the east. Pointing out my grammatical miscalculations in my rebuttal made me laugh as well. If this is an issue with you, I am on high ground with my thoughts. LOL

    I think some of you understand the WEST has the ability to strike out on it's own. Perhaps you should, in the east, re-examine your priorities. It would be ironic if, after qbek stating it wanted out and the WEST saying it wanted in, that you easterners could be left with a whimpering qbeck latched to your leg and the WEST enjoying FREEDOM for the first time.

    THE WEST STANDS ALONE.
  517. earl pearl from Canada writes: I am glad to give more support to my neighbour, but I wish my neighbour could build a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.

    But I suppose if they could do that they wouldn't need our support.
  518. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: '...then your enthusiasm for the Afghanistan mission is entirely misplaced.'

    Don't put words in my mouth. I have never used the word 'enthusiasm' regarding Afghanistan. It is a matter of duty, responsibility and acting in the national interest. These are concepts that you obviously find difficult to comprehend.
  519. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    neil b from edmonton, Canada writes:...THE WEST STANDS ALONE!
    ______________________________

    You forgot to add in public spending per capita

    Welcome to socialist paradise .....Alberta!

    Very good Sir.

    Perhaps you are one of the few that understand the enormous social spending going on in OILBERTI! by the Stelmach Government. Us Rednecks like to see a job well done, including dealing with the pressure put on infrastructure due to the population explosion out here. Lots of new Alberta bambinos born everyday, vibrant, growing OILBERTI. I love this place!
  520. reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - 'The WEST enjoying FREEDOM for the first time'? Freedom to what? Ship all of its resources abroad for far less than countries like Norway demand of the world oil cartel? Get a grip. We all saw the Alberta premier go to Washington, stetson in hand, to plead with the Americans not to declare your oil sands 'dirty' oil. But guess what? They did anyway, and won't fuel their federal government nor military vehicles with it. So, to whom would your liberated Alberta sell its oil? China, perchance?
  521. diane marie from Canada writes: Freddie Fender:-- I understand duty, but I would understand that my duty was to defend the system of government my nation actually had rather than the one that, for partisan reasons, I might prefer. I refer you to your post of 4:57.
  522. ZERO percent of Canadians voted for Michael Ignatieff from Victoria, Canada writes: Neil b, cut it out, the West will never do it and stop bashing Quebec, again a Westerner who blames everything on others. and YES I am a Westerner.

    You are nothing more than a Western Quebecer , whine and cry, oh poor little me, I need to leave to have true freedom, please. The only difference is the speak French, you speak English, otherwise, same simple minded mentality.
  523. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: Mark S Noel from Canada writes: 'What a waste of hard earned Western's tax dollars. Another welfare cheque for Ontario.'

    Mark and others who have posted similar comments. If it's any consolation the vast majority of the 98% of Ontarians that are NOT employed by the auto sector are opposed to this bailout. In fact, a good chunk of the 2% that are in some way connected to the automotive industry (myself included) are opposed to this bailout as well.

    Also you're only being robbed of your share of Federal tax dollars, about $85 for the median wage earner outside of Ontario. Us Ontarians are getting robbed by both the Feds AND our own Provincial government here, to the tune of about $145 for the median Ontario citizen. We'll also get to pay more for EI and retraining when the auto workers get laid off anyway since bailouts like this NEVER solve anything.
  524. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - 'The WEST enjoying FREEDOM for the first time'? Freedom to what? Ship all of its resources abroad for far less than countries like Norway demand of the world oil cartel? Get a grip. We all saw the Alberta premier go to Washington, stetson in hand, to plead with the Americans not to declare your oil sands 'dirty' oil. But guess what? They did anyway, and won't fuel their federal government nor military vehicles with it. So, to whom would your liberated Alberta sell its oil? China, perchance?

    =========================================

    I call BS on that. Cite your source. I remember lots of tree-huggers wailing about 'dirty oil', but I don't actually recall anybody in a position of power in the US DOING anything. All I remember is the governor of Montana warmly welcoming Stelmach, and thanking him for Alberta being a secure supplier of energy.
  525. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason passion...of course China...what's wrong with that? truedough would be proud.

    Proclamations from any Gov. are nothing more than hot air. NAFTA would shut down any embargo from my good friends the Americans. Unless of course, they prefer to open up the energy file all the way. That would include natural gas. Ca-Ching!

    One more thing reason, we as Albertans have been there and done it. All your doom and gloom only play in the east. Out here in OILBERTI ,we sit back and watch. Now and then we chuckle. You can't scare an OILBERTIAN like you can an eastern lieberal.

    THE WEST STANDS ALONE.
  526. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    This is a LOAN at interest.
  527. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: 'They did anyway, and won't fuel their federal government nor military vehicles with it. So, to whom would your liberated Alberta sell its oil? China, perchance?'

    How about ordinary American citizens? Keep in mind that probably 99% of the population has no idea what the origins of the gasoline in their tank is and most don't really care. At best they might know some high-level numbers, but they certainly aren't going to know the history of gasoline from one station to the next in such a way that will influence their buying decisions.

    Oil from the oil sands is already traded at a different price than conventional oil because it needs to be refined differently. The spread might grow a tiny bit if this new U.S. government policy turns out to be enforceable (and it probably won't), but it won't really change much. Maybe a few cents per barrel.
  528. Dave Fly from toronto, Canada writes: By using this money, GM will soon open many other car plants in China/Mexico and still crying and threats to cut canadian jobs. Business by nature is for profit, where is the cheap labours goes, where is the money goes, you can't stop it!
  529. reason passion from Canada writes: Sweeny Todd BBC News, December 11, 2008 'During the US election campaign, President-elect Barack Obama's team talked of breaking the US's addiction to 'dirty, dwindling' oil - seen by many as a direct reference to the oil sands.' The Economist, May 13, 2008 'CANADIANS like to think that although they are the junior partner in their trade relations with the United States, the 174 billion barrels of proven reserves in the oil sands of Alberta provide a powerful ace up their sleeve in any dealings with their energy-hungry neighbour. That belief has now been shaken by an American law that appears to prohibit American government agencies from buying crude produced in the oil sands of the western province.' National Post, June 24, 2008 'Barack Obama on Tuesday vowed he would break America's addiction to 'dirty, dwindling, and dangerously expensive' oil if he is elected U.S. president -- and one of his first targets might well be Canada's oil sands.'
  530. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: This whole bailout is from the coalition. It's bad. Canadians do not need this socialist stuff.

    Merry Christmas to us all. And a very jolly New Year.
  531. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: ZERO..I don't whine...I make promises I can keep.

    Somewhere , along the line, you thought we cared about the east. We were never patched over with you to begin with. You want our money ,not our culture, opinion or brotherhood. You can't have our money but we accept the rest of the deal.

    qbek has hi-jacked Canada ever since the FLQ crap hit the fan. I have been waiting over 40 years for them to come around....Not happening...a truedough salute to them and you.

    THE WEST STANDS ALONE.
  532. skenderbeg begger from Albania writes: 20 % comes to 3,5 billion...not 4 bil...but I guess for politicians its much simpler to round up numbers as long as Its not from their pockets....and yes, ceo's will work for 1 $, workers WONT cut their salaries, but politicians should take their pay cut as well as a sign of a good will and sympathy for THY who voted them IN......
    ha,ha,ha, only in LA LA Land
  533. scott thomas from Canada writes: Why has harper been sucking in his lips lately? (not that he has lips). If he was a dog, his ears would be lying back and he'd be looking down.
  534. reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - Oil's hovering at about $40 a barrel...About the same as your average Ontario auto worker makes in an hour, and contributing less to tax revenues on the dollar. Try going your own way on that.
  535. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Sweeny Todd BBC News, December 11, 2008 'During the US election campaign, President-elect Barack Obama's team talked of breaking the US's addiction to 'dirty, dwindling' oil - seen by many as a direct reference to the oil sands.' The Economist, May 13, 2008 'CANADIANS like to think that although they are the junior partner in their trade relations with the United States, the 174 billion barrels of proven reserves in the oil sands of Alberta provide a powerful ace up their sleeve in any dealings with their energy-hungry neighbour. That belief has now been shaken by an American law that appears to prohibit American government agencies from buying crude produced in the oil sands of the western province.' National Post, June 24, 2008 'Barack Obama on Tuesday vowed he would break America's addiction to 'dirty, dwindling, and dangerously expensive' oil if he is elected U.S. president -- and one of his first targets might well be Canada's oil sands.'

    =======================================

    'Appears', 'talked' and 'might be'. Wow...

    The vast majority of Americans - and most Brits couldn't find Canada - let alone Alberta - on a map of the world if their very lives depended upon it.

    Again - I call 'BS'.
  536. Jair Ferreira Jr. from Toronto, Canada writes: This is what will happen: The big 3 will use the money and they will fail miserably anyway. The taxpayer will be stuck with the bill and the jobs will be lost regardless of whatever bailout we provide the auto industry. Why? Because people are not buying the gas guzzlers junk GM, Ford and Crysler produce anymore.

    Why is that the 3 levels of government invest in public transit, high speed trains and better public infrastructure instead trowing our money in the garbage? The auto industry workers could get jobs in these new industries with a more reasonable salary of $25.00 per hour, instead the $70.00 they make now - including benefits.

    Let them fail, enough of gas guzzlers junk in our streets. We need transit not more cars in our highways.
  537. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - Oil's hovering at about $40 a barrel...About the same as your average Ontario auto worker makes in an hour, and contributing less to tax revenues on the dollar. Try going your own way on that.

    OK reason...Can we keep the $8,000,000,000.00 we give to you if we leave? Can Saskatchewan keep all their surplus as well? WE will take the Yukon and the NWT as well. BC would probably want in also.

    Sounds good. Where do we sign?

    You get the humping dog on your leg called qbek.
  538. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: 'Freddie Fender:-- I understand duty, but I would understand that my duty was to defend the system of government my nation actually had rather than the one that, for partisan reasons, I might prefer. I refer you to your post of 4:57.'

    There was nothing partisan in that post. Just the truth regarding certain individuals who were ready to sell their souls to the separatist devils so that they could be in power and attempted to use the most nefarious means to do so.

    The Canadian public response to the attempted cabal is reminiscent of previous anti-democratic attempts at hijacking this country by so-called 'elites.'The Canadian people said NO! to Meech Lake and Charlottetown and they are now saying NO! to the cabal today.
  539. reason passion from Canada writes: Sweeny Todd - Doesn't matter if the majority of Americans and Brits can't find Alberta on a map. All they have to know is whether or not the source of oil meets their test of cleanliness. But go on living in your never-never-land if that gives you comfort. The oil sands will be abandoned as soon as Arctic oil becomes a cost-efficient alternative. Which emissions from the oil sand are apparently helping hasten.
  540. Paul Byer from Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Sweeny Todd BBC News, December 11, 2008 'During the US election campaign, President-elect Barack Obama's team talked of breaking the US's addiction to 'dirty, dwindling' oil - seen by many as a direct reference to the oil sands.'

    ..............................................................................................................

    Seen by many what?

    Oil from an oil well is dirty, dwindling and expensive.

    Some imaginations.
  541. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Sweeny Todd - Doesn't matter if the majority of Americans and Brits can't find Alberta on a map. All they have to know is whether or not the source of oil meets their test of cleanliness. But go on living in your never-never-land if that gives you comfort. The oil sands will be abandoned as soon as Arctic oil becomes a cost-efficient alternative. Which emissions from the oil sand are apparently helping hasten.

    ========================================

    '...apparently helping hasten.' There you go again. ;)

    The US is in serious financial trouble. The Detroit 3 are well on their way to bankruptcy. There are two more waves of bad mortgages about wash ashore - PLUS the commercial mortgage mess. They've got TWO wars on the go. States & major cities are in dire financial straights. In spite of political rhetoric - much of it spewed during an election - they DON'T CARE where their oil comes from - as long as they can get it.
  542. reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - I could take a page from the Conservative handbook and demonize you as a separatist. But then, that would be lowering myself to their and your level. Personally, I believe Canada would be a better place without provinces. They're a left-over from colonial times that do nothing but exacerbate our differences and waste tax dollars. But Albertans and Quebecers would be the last to support that view, because their views of the national interest are virtually identical, as you so ably demonstrate.
  543. The Bubble from Canada writes: The auto industry is in Flaherty's neighborhood. Hershey's is in Runciman's neighborhood, I don't see anyone getting excited. Liberal or conservative, the rural is going to suffer and I expect to see a few people following me into the city. I hope they don't pull each others weewee's too hard right now because this country has a few years of misery to go through still.
  544. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason...thanks for that ..I am.

    I know that dissolving the Provinces into a collective would be troudough's dream, and yours as well.

    As I said earlier. I have become impatient waiting for you easterners to get a grip and fend for yourselves without fabricating problems for the government to babysit you over. You easterners , apparently, don't know any better.
  545. Tor Hill from Canada writes: Well within the context of this entire mess, poster Bobby Dy said by far the most relevant thing a few stories and threads ago: In September, Mr. Harper proclaimed dysfunction in Parliament (dysfunction caused by his party more than any other one), said he couldn't govern under such conditions and called an election (against his own election law). He was returned with a minority gov't. and hence more dysfunction. He said he couldn't govern under such conditions. They were placed in his path twice. The only honourable thing for him would have been to resign. Yes, a majority gov't. would have smoother sailing, hence the viability of the coalition. And no, none of this was planned by Harper. He is being carried along by events along with the rest of us.
  546. Tor Hill from Canada writes: Of course, I failed to mention the deliberate flip-flop of Mr. Harper regarding the deficit, the recession and the stimulus package. But that is all kind of a given in these circumstances. And the flip-flop only strengthens the argument that Mr. Harper's resignation was the only solution.
  547. neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: Tor Hill...very wise words...Nobody has a crystal ball...but we all play with the hand we are delt.

    If it wasn't Harper than it would have been someone else.

    This situation is evolving as we speak. Measured response is all that can be strived for.
  548. Wilma Guywin from Allover Canada, Canada writes: Some of the Coalition Economic Stimulus Package The top priority of the new Government is an economic stimulus package designed to boost the domestic economy beginning with (but not limited to): - Accelerating existing infrastructure funding and substantial new investments, including municipal and inter-provincial projects (such as - transit, clean energy, water, corridors and gateways). This would certainly include addressing the urgent infrastructure needs of First Nations, Métis and Inuit; - Housing construction and retrofitting; and - Investing in key sector strategies (like manufacturing, forestry and automotive) designed to create and save jobs, with any aid contingent on a plan to transform these industries and return them to profitability and sustainability. Facilitate skills training to help ensure Canadian workers are properly equipped to keep pace with the rapidly changing economy, while respecting provincial jurisdiction and existing agreements; - Amend the current law establishing a new crown corporation for employment insurance in order to guarantee that all revenue from EI premiums provides benefits and training for workers. Eliminate the current two week waiting period; - Lower the minimum required RRIF withdrawal for 2008 by 50 per cent; - Reform bankruptcy and insolvency laws to better protect pensions; and - Implement an income support program for older workers who have lost their jobs in order to help them make the transition from work to receiving retirement benefits.
  549. Tor Hill from Canada writes: I don't think that to say Mr. Harper did a deliberate flip-flop on the budget, the deficit, the recession and a stimulus package is anything like saying he is in control of things. But we will see, maybe he is demonstrating control. Whether or not it is enough is another thing that will have to be played out.
  550. Paul Byer from Canada writes: Tor Hill from Canada writes: viability of the coalition. And no, none of this was planned by Harper. He is being carried along by events along with the rest of us.

    ..............................................................................................................

    There was never going to be a coalition. Harper got wind of the NDP Separatist plot and led the little lambs to a slaughter. He brought in the cancellation of the voter $1.95 knowing what would happen. He then let the Coalition of Fools fall right into his trap.

    Dion gone. Layton and Piggy May (right to the Trough to get a Senator's 'Cash for Life' disgraced in Canadians eyes and a recently arrived Bush supporter seizing the Liberal party. Coalition dreamers still wondering what hit them.

    All going to plan. And the Count will be voting for thee 44th time to support Harper. Even Iggy knows he can't bring down the government as there will be no coalition only a very good chance of Harper getting his majority from fed up Canadians in another election called by Harper through his advising the GG.

    All good.

    Great strategy.
  551. ZERO percent of Canadians voted for Michael Ignatieff from Victoria, Canada writes: Neil B, you know what is funny ( sad really ) is how you are blasting Quebec for doing or wanting to do the EXACT same thing you want to do but of course it is ok for you to think that way just not them. Wanting to separate is noble for Neil B but those Quebecers who think like Neil B are wrong.

    A bit hypocritical are we?

    Your big*oted views are laughable, how did a 4 billion $$$ bailout article becomes a Quebec bashing, boggles my mind but then again, if an article came out on Men landing on Mars, you would bash Quebec in that article as well so your credibility is pretty much nil.
  552. Elmer Fudd from Somewhere, Canada writes: John Lake from Calgary, Canada writes: As a retired Auto employee. Thank you, thank you, thank you. By the way $70.00 an hr includes the legacy costs for the retirees as well. Please get that through your heads. A new CAW employee starts at $14.00 an hour not $28.00.

    Aren't you talking about the US workers and the UAW. the CAW refused to negociate the 2 tier wage agreement.
  553. diane marie from Canada writes: Freddie Fender:-- Actually, Freddie, they aren't saying 'no' to anything. Voters voted and they did not vote either for or against a coalition, but for specific parties - including, I might add, one that is duly registered and which has not spoken of separatism in a good, long time. You err in confusing media-sponsored polls with voting.
  554. Dave Cajun from Bobcaygeon, Canada writes: What about a bailout for the millions of pensioners who have had their pension incomes decimated because of the stock market collapse. We don't have guaranteed indexed pensions like the privileged MP's and MPP's. We need help now
  555. Mike McFae from Canada writes: Dave Cajun , totally agree but you should also include the CAW pension plan. Has anyone answered why Jack Layton is not all over this . Shouldn't he be out there supporting the unionized workers ? What's up with that ?
  556. Freddie Fender from Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: '...one that is duly registered and which has not spoken of separatism in a good, long time.'

    If you really, really believe that, then you must be either delusional or something worse, in the form of Atwoodism. If the latter, than it's not a simple matter of error.
  557. Jeff D from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark S Noel from Canada writes: 'What a waste of hard earned Western's tax dollars. Another welfare cheque for Ontario. I'm sick of paying you people my hard earned money. Maybe you should get real jobs instead of handouts.' Please stop being so ignorant. Do you think that 400 000 people is equal to 10 million? We Ontarians are contributing more to this than people from other provinces. Are we happy about our tax dollars being used for this bailout? Well just read the goddamn comments written by Ontarians!
  558. Jeff D from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark S Noel from Canada writes: 'What a waste of hard earned Western's tax dollars. Another welfare cheque for Ontario. I'm sick of paying you people my hard earned money. Maybe you should get real jobs instead of handouts.' Please stop being so ignorant. Do you think that 400 000 people is equal to 10 million? We Ontarians are contributing more to this than people from other provinces. Are we happy about our tax dollars being used for this bailout? Well just read the goddamn comments written by Ontarians!
  559. Michael S from Toronto, Canada writes: I find it quite humorous that the western-style macro-capitalists always rail against nationalization of bread and butter industries and are always fervently in favour of privatization at any and all costs.....UNTIL that is, their very own businesses no longer seem to be reaping the benefits of 'maco-capitalism' that they so staunchly defend in the 'good times'. Very peculiar indeed. Because, then, it's gimme gimme gimme, state, but don't you dare 'nationalize' me, just gimme. Seems as though if I'm investing money into a company (i.e. buying a stake, stock) I now own part of that company no matter how big or small that part is. But the rules, ah, the rules have now been thrown out the window. This is a money grab by the moneyed. That includes all the power players, like politicians.
    Anyway, where did all the money go in the first place? Either:
    a) The economy is a sham, a house of cards that was bound to come down some day, we've all be hoodwinked.
    OR
    b) All the Saudi money is now stolen. Yes, you read that right. Saudi Arabia is the U.S.'s biggest investor, and 'owned' a majority of all stock in the high-fliers of wallstreet. How does the U.S. pull off the scam and steal all the Saudis' money from them? Easy, invent a credit crisis and allow the money to evaporate on the stock exchanges. In any closed system, such as planet Earth, you never lose elements (read: wealth), they simply move from one place to another (i.e. think 'One man's loss is another's gain', or 'There's no such thing as a free lunch, mate'). Sure there was some collateral damage like a few serfs lost their homes, a couple got laid off. But relax everyone, we just appropriated trillions in Arabian money and we're going to 'rebuild' our economy better than ever before and Americans' standards of living will be even better in comparison to the Arab world's. So smile! We just pulled off the biggest heist in the history of this earth. You should be proud!
  560. lord cross of Blacks Harbour from BLACKS HARBOUR NB, Canada writes:
    For your reading/viewing enjoyment:

    1. Obama Team Assembling $850 Billion Stimulus

    By Lori Montgomery—Washington Post Staff Writer

    Friday, December 19, 2008; Page A01

    2. Greenspan Admits The Federal Reserve Is Above The Law...

    He says it at 7:40 ... 9 min –

    [[www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol3mEe8TH7w]]

    Kinda like, 'Who's watching the watchers, watching the watchers, watching the watchers?'

    And, I don't mean passive spectators.
  561. T M from Canada writes: '2. Greenspan Admits The Federal Reserve Is Above The Law...

    He says it at 7:40 ... 9 min – '

    And again, religion and allegation. It is 12:14 and I am so tired. I have better things to do tomorrow. Merry Christmas everybody!
  562. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: 'This is a LOAN at interest.'

    The problem with 'loans' like this is that they have a nasty habit of never being paid back. Even at the best of times it's a loan at interests rates bellow fair market value, so it's still a government handout.

    If the company ends up filing for bankruptcy protection anyway then the government has to line up with all other creditors and usually they get booted right to the back of the line behind parts suppliers, banks, bond holders, etc. At best the governments only get a tiny fraction of the loan repaid, at worst they get nothing. Given that Chrysler is up for sale and GM is likely to need bankruptcy protection with or without this bailout money don't expect to see very good return on this 'investment'.

    There's a reason why the banks won't lend GM or Chrysler money, they don't expect the companies to ever be able to pay their 'loans' back. Us taxpayers have no reason to expect any different.
  563. Peter Smith from Canada writes: How can they change their ways in 3 months? What a waste of tax payers money.

    How about making it a law that 70% of our cars have to be hybrid or electric and give the work to some Canadian companies. Maybe they can then hire a bulk of the employees from GM and Chrysler.
  564. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: Peter Smith from Canada writes: 'How about making it a law that 70% of our cars have to be hybrid or electric and give the work to some Canadian companies.'

    There's a surefire way to flush money down the drain. NOBODY is buying electric cars anymore, the market for them has completely crashed! Most electric car companies are in worse financial shape than GM or Chrysler.

    Even hybrids aren't doing particularly well right now, sales are down about 50% year over year, MUCH worse than the industry average and certainly a LOT worse than pick-up trucks and SUVs that are selling much better than the industry average. Ford recently announced extended holiday shutdowns for all their plants EXCEPT those making pickup trucks.

    Turns out that people talk a good talk about fuel economy, but when it comes to actually putting down cash to buy a new vehicle most people in North America want big vehicles.
  565. John Hidden from Puntarenas, Costa Rica writes: Let the chips fall where they might. We cannot afford to help produce a product nobody wants, and that nobody can afford anymore.

    There will be so many unemployed needing government help in ALL sectors of the economy that politics cannot be seen as playing favorite.
  566. jamie yavis from Canada writes: Gee, my bailout would only cost $750K, and it would save workers too!

    If you give the money to the same clowns who got the car companies in the mess they are in it's like flushing the money down the toilet!

    The dirty-dozen top echelon of the car companies will make sure half goes into their pockets, and maybe, half will go into some type of shell game that makes it look like they are making progress.

    It does not make sense to give the money to the same people that got the north American companies where they are ... they want to blame labour, but hey what about the 10's if not hundreds of millions of dollars spent on lobbyists? What about the zillions of dollars spent on advertising substandard cars, trying to convince the public that they are the best? What about all the sourced out labour to third-world countries? What about the ridiculous pay and benefits paid to the CEO's .... that's what would have to be changed before I supported them with one red cent!
  567. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Break it down! Approx $130 Canucks bucks charged to every man, woman and child in Canuckistan for the bailout. Yeehaa!
  568. Math Cen from Canada writes: Yeah, I know what you mean.
    I can't afford a catastrophic collapse either.
    Goverment - give money please, or I'll move away.

    It's Animal Farm folks - wake the hell up.
    The people in charge are sucking you dry.
  569. CallofDuty . from Toronto, Canada writes: What a joke this is. The US banks were bailed out and they still laid off they're workers and they are still in trouble with 700 billion!

    Just imagine how may jobs cuts with this little money to the D3?
  570. Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    Another federal bailout for Alberta:

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/12/20/pf-7813851.html

    Harper has embraced socialism with the fervor of a convert!
  571. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: CallofDuty . from Toronto- Don't worry CallofDuty 40 CEOs should be taken care of with the 700 Billion.

    Ok I have to fess up I got an F350 and I would take a full size diesel truck Chev or Ford over any toyota or honda anyday of the week. Man I just love it in the snow. I heard of a friend's father in law that was recently in a severe accident in the snow and I think it is a good thing to have a real vehicle that suits Canadian winters. I won't pay through the nose for another big truck though- you boys better trim your wages and make less expensive good trucks or kick your union bosses out in the snow so you can afford to make less expensive good trucks.
  572. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: you boys better trim your wages and make less expensive good trucks or kick your union bosses out in the snow so you can afford to make less expensive good trucks. ----------------------------------- Guess you never read the comments about how little the price of a vehicle is effected by actual wages. Even if the auto workers worked for free it wouldn't have a substantial impact on what you pay for your new car or truck. Price isn't the reason people aren't buying new vehicles. People are holding on to thier older cars longer and they are lasting much longer. My 2000 Ford is doing just fine, there's no reason to replace it even if I could afford it. There's no big price differences between foriegn and domestic vehicles with equivalent features despite different operational costs to build. That domestic vehicles are somehow inferior is also a myth. Some foreign models come with a bunch of extras that people who want new tech toys are attracted to, but that doesn't make the vehicle itself superior. It really comes down to disposable income and whether people have a need to replace thier current vehisle instead of spending thier income on something else. The problem here is not the labour costs or the quality of the vehicles. It's the economic downturn and less disposable income in the hands of the low and middle class. The hope is that the bailout will help tide the companies over the current downturn until that changes. Manufacturers will still hve to downsize and restructure, but that is far better than having them pull up stakes and close down. It's far easier to ressurect a downsized company than it is to ressurect a dead one.
  573. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Some good points Norm but, higher wages = more expensive vehicles = more financing and less disposable income for purchaser etc etc. People are primarily stretched to thin due to their financing. Puchases such as home(s), vehicles, or wasted money sometimes high interest (Visa).
  574. R. P. from nowhere, writes: I just priced a Toyota Camry and a Ford Fusion. They cost almost the same. Shouldn't the Camry cost about $10,000 less than the Ford? You know, no union wages, legacy costs etc. Seems to me the consumer is getting ripped off. That Toyota is WAY overpriced.
  575. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: RP- If I had a choice over a ford fusion or a Camry it would be a Camry any day of the week. When it comes to practical trucks Ford or Chev are the way to go.
  576. R. P. from nowhere, writes: REV...read consumer reports magazine. They rate the Fusion as the better car, better value.
  577. old Curmudgeon From Ottawa from Canada writes: Gee, I would love to do my bit for the country and buy a new car from the big 3, but, errr, I lost my job a year ago and EI is over...

    Can I get a bail out? If not, how about some EI before I have to start eating my cat's food?
  578. Johnny Luke L from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Of course these companies need a bailout. They need to rebuild everything because they need to change the way they make cars. It costs a lot of money to transform a plant that produces gas guzzlers into and a place that produces vehicules that cost you less to run. Honda and Toyota have been making a killing! Its because they believed people would need smaller more fuel efficient cars because it does not make sense anymore to have a big car that uses a lot of gas. A. They knew this negative economic situation might have a strong chance to happen and B. They knew people would have less money to spend as a consequence. Its just the way it works man. We re realizing that the US auto makers made the wrong choice and we have no choice than to follow suit because of the decisions that were made blindly in a time when we thought everything we (North America) created could not go wrong. We sold the farm, and now we're buying it back.
  579. Fa Chili from SW ONTARIO, writes: No reason to build cars that nobody wants to buy. It will be hard for D3 to change. Big car=big profit was their reason for being.
  580. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: Bailing out the companies and the position of the unions make we want to trash the whole lot and I definitely don't want to give them taxpayer money. I do feel great sympathy for the families, as I do for all families who lose their income, and, during these difficult times, want to help them all to manage while they are relocated, retrained and / or find other jobs. They, of course, will be expected to make the effort that I believe we should financially support as we restructure the economy.
  581. Malcolm MacKay from Canada writes: I may be ignorant on this, but I thought porouge meant that government was shut down and out of business for now. Are there no votes on this, and can they just hand out money when it suits them. This sucks big time as I guess it's business as usual whether the house sits or not.
  582. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: If the unions don't budge on compensation, I will be encouraging everyone to not buy vehicles from 'the Big Three' and politically try to mobilize all those across the country to punish those politicians who accept it. I now encourage all readers to make the same stand.
  583. D Ross from Canada, Canada writes: Just delays the end.

    This problem in the auto industry has been recognized for years. Defined benefit plans and retirement medical plans have companies like GM over the barrel. There is no out here. They owe these benefits and no one is going to want to deal with the issue of lowering them, especially not in the current state of the market.

    Combine that with the quality of vehicles that the big 3 put out and their demand is declining. I've seen companies like Toyota and Honda go from crappy car manufacturers to the most reliable cars on the road in a few decades. The Big 3 haven't don't anything on this front. I gave up throwing my money down the toilet with their cars about 10 years ago and I'm happy for it.

    Time for capitalism to run it's course. They haven't done anything to deal with their situation in years, 3 months isn't going to fix things.
  584. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: The CAW wants to say it is paid in accordance with industry norms. They don't get it. Most people, not auto industry workers, believe that these assembly line workers are paid far too much for the relative worth given; relative worth considered in comparison to the expertise and effort and other often hash conditions in other industry.

    As for the Alberta vs Ont commentary - lay off it. It is not the real issue. Conservative vs NDP would be a more accurate way to characterize the differing opinions.
  585. D E from Canada writes: Get out and buy these cars folks because the Big 3 have improved over the last 10 years and they needed to. We need to save these jobs, this industry, the spinoff technologies, the feeder plants, the taxes paid and the UIC system. Hopefully this will prevent the oncoming depression that would occur without the big 3 bailout. We have no choice folks !
    On the otherhand taxpayers expect the big 3 will straighten out their act - its way overdue. Build efficient, quality controlled vehicles. Dealers need to provide better warranty service if they expect to sell these cars to repeat cusyomers. My new Chrysler 300 is a decent car but the dealership provides unsatisfactory service. Rear doorlocks and broken sunvisor hooks failed at 15Km, rubber door gaskets at 25Km, which are all manufacturing defects. These types of problems are very rare with low mileage imports. I see no intention from the dealer to fix these problems under warranty and thats the real problem - poor after sale warranty support....The consumer feels ripped off and doesn't return.
  586. Dieter Sprockets from Dusseldorf, Germany writes:

    The market will determine winners and losers.

    Bailout will buy a short period of time, perhaps a quarter.

    Can GM continue to pay for sponge days additional time off above and beyond guaranteed holidays?

    Will GM continue to pay for legal costs –a nice part of the collective agreement which pays employees legal costs in the event they mess up?
  587. m y from Canada writes: why don't you give this money to Honda and Toyota, the two companies that really know their stuff and are productive and produce product the marketplace wants now and into the future.

    GM, Chrysler, and Ford are DEAD - end of story, time to move on into new industries like alternative industry.

    this country has no innovation and no technical expertise and RIM is only one company and even there - smartphones....wow...how important is that for the future of an entire economy.

    this country stinks.
  588. bob london from Canada writes: Harper looks like a dad who has been ripped off by a whiny snot nosed little POS kid that just got himself in a pickle and has not learned yet. Dalton is running Ontario like a Camp for Unionized Boomers.
  589. Brian NAV from Daytona, United States writes: Do you folks realize that in North America we IMPORT 4,200,000 vehicles a year. That means you EXPORT roughly $118,000,000,000 per year to JAPAN, KOREA AND GERMANY. That is a lot of cash. Numbers based on Wards Automotive reports.
  590. kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: Apparently the big 3 employ directly 22000 manufacturing and 5000 administrative people. Bailout works out to about 150000 each. Talk of impending doom implies that no manufacturer will build cars or buy parts in Ontario. Somewhat unlikely. Research the money poured into McDonnell-Douglas (Boeing) before they deserted Malton and you will get a glimpse of the future. Can the CAW negotiate some cash for me?
  591. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    Another federal bailout for Alberta:

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/12/20/pf-7813851.html

    Harper has embraced socialism with the fervor of a convert!

    ============================================

    How can even YOU possibly confuse municipal infrastructure projects with an out-and-out bail out of the businesses that are the D3? And one of those - Chrysler - is privately owned by Cerberus, a Wall Street vulture fund!

    Why are you SO desperate to slag Alberta? Why would you support pouring taxpayers cash into a private company over projects that would benefit the average citizens of this country?
  592. Dieter Sprockets from Dusseldorf, Germany writes:
    Toronto Sun

    Worse is coming. Chrysler and Ford will shut plants in January. GM is next. In spite of the $13.4-billion auto industry bailout announced by President Bush last Friday, many plants may never reopen. As this column has long said, the U.S. auto industry closely resembles the old Soviet Union: Economically declining, bereft of new ideas, producing unwanted products, run by dimwitted careerist bureaucrats.

    America produces the wrong cars, and far too many. The bloated auto industry must downsize. It has been selling cars only thanks to the steroid of cheap, easy credit -- in effect, almost giving them away. Now that the drug is largely cut off, sales have nosedived

    Eric
  593. D Roberts from Canada writes: Harper tried to save Taxpayers. You saw what happened. My Liberal MP boasted (to me) 3 weeks ago that they'd bring down the government so that they could cut checks to the Big 3 and many others - well and protect government workers pay increased and right to strike, of course.

    Harper should have let them do their own dirty work, instead of jumping into bed with them. But then again, this is the will of parliament. But not the will of the taxpayer. Only Harper was on the same page as most of you.
  594. Dieter Sprockets from Dusseldorf, Germany writes:

    How many North Americans will decide to buy UNION cars?
  595. D Roberts from Canada writes: Remember, the union members could work for FREE - and under the current model, they still (all) go bankrupt. There is no way out. The market will only support one modest sized domestic car maker - with no unions attached. As I don't personally believe that unions can be reasonable, and logical.
  596. D Roberts from Canada writes: Dieter, that is a great point. This is a PR disaster for the big 3 that has made things even worse. Anti big 3 sentiment is rampant. Their brands have been tarnished - even more so that from building inferior vehicles (that Management continues to admit to in press releases). That is just plain stupid - even if it's true. It's time for positive spin and at least claiming some quality success.
  597. Brian NAV from Daytona, United States writes: How many North Americans will decide to buy UNION cars?

    The cars you buy from Germany are made by UNION folk. The cars you import and buy from Korea are made by uinon folk, just different country must make it ok.....
  598. D Roberts from Canada writes: Brian - Toyota Canada builds more cars here - that are sold here - than any other auto maker - percentage wise. If Canadians want to aid Canadian job creation, the answer is quite simple and obvioius.
  599. j mackinnon from Canada writes: I think I get it. UAW/CAW are supposed to bring their wages in line with Honda and Toyota. Workers at Honda/Toyota justify their wages on the basis of what the UAW/CAW earn. I just have not got around understanding how north americans can rationalize ignoring the labour costs in the auto indutries in Slovakia, Korea, China and India being more than ten times lower than the USA hourly rates. I somehow also think that the reason that Canada produces two to three times what we consume might be because our labour costs are almost half those of the USA. This whole situation has an odour of greed and incompetence.
  600. Steve in Ontario from Toronto, Canada writes: Add this $4 billion on top of the rest of the subsidies this companies have gotten over the years and what do you get? Nothing. You get nothing for it. Remember when these companies sued N. American governments to prevent fuel efficiency legislation from being enacted? Remember how these companies focused on gas guzzling large vehicles when the price of oil was going exponential?

    These companies are not too big to fail, they're too incompetent to save. Let them go. If we want to improve our standard of living in Canada, let the crap go and put the money somewhere smart.
  601. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: Johnny Luke L from Winnipeg, Canada writes: 'Honda and Toyota have been making a killing! Its because they believed people would need smaller more fuel efficient cars'

    Three points here. First, Honda and Toyota are NOT making a killing, especially in North America right now. Both companies are barely breaking even if not losing money here. However they don't have 3 plus decades worth of mismanagement dragging them down.

    Second, Ford has pretty much tied Honda for fuel economy and GM has Honda beat pretty much across the board. Seriously, check the U.S EPA fuel consumption scores for yourself (the Canadian ones are horribly unreliable but generally show a similar trend). The Chevy Aveo is more fuel efficient then the Honda Fit. The Cobalt XFE beats the Civic, Cobalt SS beats the Civic Si, Malibu I4 beats the Accord I4. Impala V6 beats the Accord V6, Solstice beats the S2000, Colorado beats the Ridgeline, etc. Honda offers almost few, if any, products that will beat competing products from GM. Toyota is the only company in the world offering comparable fuel economy to GM.

    Third, fuel economy stopped selling when gas prices dropped. Sales of small cars are well down, the market for hybrids is MUCH worse than for the industry average and the market for electric vehicles has essentially vanished. The only vehicles selling comparatively well right now are pickup trucks; they are only down about 20-25% while the market as a whole is down 35%.
  602. Accountant from Toronto from Canada writes: ' D Roberts from Canada writes: Brian - Toyota Canada builds more cars here - that are sold here - than any other auto maker - percentage wise. If Canadians want to aid Canadian job creation, the answer is quite simple and obvioius.'

    Exactly why Toyota Canada had an all-time record sales in October in the middle of a financial crisis.
  603. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Who will win and Who will Lose. Lets's look at the situation. The CAW vs UAW: The Big 3 need to shed excess manufacturing and they need to do it with the cooperation of the unions. The Big 3 have one big hand 'JOBS' ,so; the UAW says OK we will help you out Big 3 but in return you must minimize layoffs; The Big 3 respond by saying OK we will save the jobs in the USA; the UAW says great you get our cooperation; The CAW says what about us. we were joking when we said no cuts; the Big 3 say, to bad Lewennza, two people can't play the same game- sorry you're out of luck. So Canada gets screwed and the bribe money from Harper is not needed. Now let's move on to the other stakeholders and play the same game.
  604. Accountant from Toronto from Canada writes: It hurts knowing these guys are getting our tax dollars..

    As soon as big three employment drops and they no longer account for such a serious portion of our GDP, i say we need to recall those loans and pull the rug out from underneath them.
  605. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: 'I just priced a Toyota Camry and a Ford Fusion. They cost almost the same. Shouldn't the Camry cost about $10,000 less than the Ford?'

    I know the message was meant in jest, but for those that don't understand these things it's important to note that the cost to build something has very little to do with its price. A car sells for what someone will pay for it, that is what it is worth. If a car costs $30,000 to build but can only sell for $20,000 then it's only worth $20,000.

    The difference doesn't show up on the sticker price, it shows up on the companies bottom line. Toyota is roughly breaking even in North America right now, possibly even losing a little bit of money. Ford lost over $2B in North America last quarter. The difference in labour costs are only a small part of that $2B (at most $300M), but they are still part of the reason.
  606. Bobby Boy from Canada writes: 'We cannot afford ... a catastrophic short-term collapse.'

    So instead we'll suffer a catastrophic collapse 2 months from now - real smart!. If their cash flow is that bad, this bailout money won't do anything except delay the inevitable.

    All we are doing is bailing out the banks. Let these companies go bankrupt now and restructure them for 20 cents on the dollar. Let the banks take the hit, not the taxpayer!

    What amazes me (assuming the comments on this site are somewhat representative of the Canadian population) is that the average Canadian does NOT want this bailout. So why are the bureaucrats so intent on doing it then?
  607. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: kotter 49 from The new Sikh homeland, Brampton, Canada writes: 'Research the money poured into McDonnell-Douglas (Boeing) before they deserted Malton and you will get a glimpse of the future.'

    You don't even need to look that far adrift to see the future, just look at the $400M plus of government money that was given to GM in 2005 to 'guarantee' jobs. The job cuts started almost before the ink was dry and they haven't stopped. Do you think either the Feds or Ontario are going to get back any of that money? Not on your life!

    GM is burning through cash at a rate of $2B a month, and Chrysler is probably in a similar boat. It's almost certain that the market for vehicles isn't going to improve much through 2009, so unless there are dramatic changes made to how these two companies operate they are going to go under by next summer or fall even with this bailout. Those dramatic changes that are needed are definitely going to involve a lot of job cuts.
  608. Dave Jansen - The Progressive Centrist from Canada writes: .

    Has anyone read about the socialist bail-out Harper has just offered to his Albertan minions?

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/12/20/pf-7813851.html

    Unreal.

    Can't wait to hear all those Albertan hypocrits suddenly come around and talk about how wonderful helping industry is....

    Pathetic neo-con reform hicks.
  609. Richard Soley from writes: Another classic example of politicans displaying thier lack of business experince. While it is hard to take job loss remember that countries like Mexico China, India,Asia, should be new markets as well as competive labor and instead of funding a few months of continued failure this money should be developing new technology cars. Natural gas powered, solar powered, hybrid vehicles, whatever it takes to lead the technology race for clean efficent internal combustion engines that would be first in world demand. Instead the Big three are getting a short term bailout that won't work. If the product was competitive they wouldn't be asking for bailouts. Ask your MP why the airlines wern't bailed out? We still have airlines, this bailout is the worst kind of political folly. Brought to you by the appointed leader of the liberals, the sovereign separtists, the socialist NDP, Canadian taxpayers are being handed a deficit by default. Canada needs reformed senate and an end to the lack of democratic process at all levels. Watch while the auto industry eats money and fails !
  610. greg middleton from Canada writes: Ryan . from St. Catharines, Canada writes: What a complete waste of money. But then again, I suppose the Big 3 have no choice when the unions are demanding more money, even though they make $70 an hour.
    The quicker the auto-industry dies, the better everyone will be.

    Do some reading Ryan. No one at these companies earns $70 and hour. Thats the total layout including to pensioners and healthcare and healthcare for pensioners for US Big 3. Wages are more like $28/hr.
  611. Reed Holmes from Halifax, Canada writes: This sucks.
  612. Dieter Sprockets from Dusseldorf, Germany writes:

    It's not unions that are the problem but bad union contracts are most certainly a source of concern. If the contract limits the amount of robotics which can be used the vehicle may be inferior to other vehicles made with more robotics. If the union contract means means that the per unit cost of the vehicle is not competitive with non unionized shops, than the contract is deleterious to the survival of the industry. And if 50% of CAW workers at Oshawa are driving non domestic vehicles, it communicates a very very bad message.
  613. DAVID W from KINGSTON, Canada writes: Nor can we afford........................'a long term catastrophic LONG term collaspe'........We will be paying for years to come in supporting the Big 3's management and overly paid and unskilled CAW workers............the Big 3 will never recover in the long or short term.........once you produce poor quality. It is extremely difficult, frustrating and distrusting to purchase vehicles that were so poorly built. As well as very poor and uncaring customer service.
  614. tom johnson from mississauga, Canada writes: HARPER DID A FLIP - FLOP. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    I KNEW THE GUTLESS COWARD WOULD WORRY MORE FOR HIS POLITICAL HIDE THAN FOR HIS 'WESTERN COHORTS.
    REMEMBER ALBERTA, HARPO WAS BORN AND RAISED IN ONTARIO, THE COWBOY HAT IS FROM A DRUG STORE.
  615. David Beentheredonethat from Canada writes: It seems McGinty and Harper were to be damned if they did and damned if they didn't. I just read 50 posts or so throughout this board and the vast majority are against the bailout. What do they do? Let the automakers go under and put hundreds of thousands of Canadians out of work? Merry Christmas. And yet, no one I've ever known received a bailout for mismanagement and incompetence and lack of vision. This is really tough. Anyone could see it coming for years and yet nothing subsatntive was done and now it's hit the fan. I really hope the money is not uselessly being thrown away and I guess I'll know pretty soon anyway. A real tough call. Sit by and do nothing and be called a bum, or do what they've done and be called a bum. Go figure. At least, could they fire those in the industry responsible for this fiasco? That would at least make me feel better.
  616. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Dieter Sprockets from Dusseldorf, Germany writes:

    It's not unions that are the problem but bad union contracts are most certainly a source of concern. If the contract limits the amount of robotics which can be used the vehicle may be inferior to other vehicles made with more robotics. If the union contract means means that the per unit cost of the vehicle is not competitive with non unionized shops, than the contract is deleterious to the survival of the industry. And if 50% of CAW workers at Oshawa are driving non domestic vehicles, it communicates a very very bad message.

    ____________________________________-

    Like every post you make there are no facts here.

    All lies ... all the time. This must be your motto
  617. Richard Soley from writes: The eastern agnst here is certainly understandable but ALbertans are tired of the terms like HICKS, NEOCONS etc. Alberta has paid it's way and contributed to equalization to the point a majority of labor in the Oil Sands is from eastern and Atlantic canada. There is a new airline formed with the business plan of transporting labor directly from Halifax to Ft. McMurray. The waste of taxpayers money forced on the country by the Appointed leader of the Liberals, the Bloc separists, and the Marxist wannabe NDP is not about east and west it is about power, political, union, and industrial, wrong thinking! If the product made by the CAW, UAW, and the big three was competitive there won't be a problem, would there? SO what will change in three months except your tax dollars will be gone and Government regardless of which colection of fools will need more tax dollars to piss away. Lets have an election Now and find out where the taxpayers stand, Canadians pay to much tax to be governed by a coalition of fools!
  618. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Richard Soley Your partisanship is showing.
  619. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Richard, We are governed by ONE fool. Harpo
  620. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: The D3's business ship has been taking on water for decades. Then, the leaky old tub got absolutely torpedoed by the credit mess in the US. Now, it's sinking FAST. I think this tax money - here and in the US - is to give many people in the industry time to 'man the life boats', rather than go down with the ship.

  621. R. P. from nowhere, writes: How much did BC get for the Olympics? I don't want my taxpayer money going to a bunch athletes to train. Get a real job like the rest of us. No more $ for Olympic athletes.
  622. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Torontonians, It cost $600 MILLION taxpayer dollars to build Skydome. Why should my taxpayer dollars pay for this?
  623. Northern Alberta from Canada writes: Everyone here seems to feel better by bashing a CAW worker, Harper or Alberta. This is the problem with our country lots of people to complain but who wants to talk action? Lets put a D3 collapse another way. For most people a car loan is only second to their house as far as personal debt goes. (if you don't own/finance/lease a car I'm sure you have family that does or an employer that does) If we see the auto industry collapse D3 or foreign, it is fair to assume the value on used cars is going to take a beating. Once the banks/finance corps realize on their balance sheets that loans outstanding =< asset value outstanding life is going to get interesting. If a car company fails who is going to buy the cars? No one. So even in a best case when the time comes to sell, trade in and/our return your lease (open-ended) you are going to take a hit to the pocket no matter what you bought. Or finance companies will start calling loans, now you have no car and get the privilege to pay out the nose. Imagine applying for a loan, they look at your liabilities (what cars are) assets and income and say nope you own to much on your car sir we can't refinance your house... debt ratio all wrong. Sound like a depression to me. We can complain all we want about bail me out, who gets the $4 billion etc, but if done well can save our collective wallets some grief. Remember “Brand X Ontario parts company” buys your, computer systems out of Vancouver and uses Accounting Firms in Ottawa/Montreal. We are tied together and in Canada and the US love it or hate it, cars are in a sad way the glue that brings us together. So right or wrong let’s move forward as a country. Because outside of raw materials (bitumen, trees, pulp, mining ore, etc) what do we have as a finished product to diversify our economy with? If you can find a product on the same scale as the auto sector I’ll be surprised! My 2 cents.
  624. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Bobby Boy from Canada writes:....What amazes me (assuming the comments on this site are somewhat representative of the Canadian population) is that the average Canadian does NOT want this bailout. So why are the bureaucrats so intent on doing it then?

    ___________________________

    Because their decisions are based on knowledge.....not supposition as most of the posters here.
  625. D K from Canada writes: Canadians are rich.. they can afford to give money to American companies.
  626. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Torontonians, It cost $600 MILLION taxpayer dollars to build Skydome. Why should my taxpayer dollars pay for this?

    =========================================

    How long ago was the Skydome built? Skip ahead 20 years to now, and the truly MASSIVE financial problems at hand in the auto industry. Trying to put up a smoke screen by invoking unrelated nonsense about the Olympics and a decades-old sports venue isn't going to help. Those ships have already sailed. The D3's ship is about to go under - NOW.

    Focus, dude.
  627. Dave Little from From Ontario, where flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: Richard, sorry to say it , but R.P. is right, there is only one fool who is governing at this time an Harpo is his name. Now Richard, every time you cash your CPP cheque or EI cheque, or that you have affordable Universal health care you can thank the NDP for forcing the governing Liberals of the day on that.. By the way marxist and socialist values are not the same thing, that is like saying a liberal and a CONservative are the same and you know that is not true.

    By the way, Marx was correct on haw the free market should be operated, and the fools in Ottawa, Washington and on Wall street just proven it. There have been articles in the WSJ and the G&M; espousing that.
  628. David Beentheredonethat from Canada writes: D K from Canada writes: Canadians are rich.. they can afford to give money to American companies.

    DK.......... That made me laugh. Thanks. I needed that.
  629. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: It's amazing how many arm chair auto industry CEOs there are posting here. Seems everyone has an answer to why the automotive industry is failing. I think a few haven't shopped for a new car in the last couple of decades either, with comments like too expensive, bad workmanship, not feul efficient compared to imports...

    North American cars are as feul efficient as imports, they are as safe as imports, they have as many flaws as imports, they are priced closely with imports.

    As far as not making what the people want, that's wrong too. A simple glance on our roadways and it's no secret that North Americans want big honking SUVs that chew through fuel like it grows on trees. But the big three does also make better economy cars, most people don't want them though.

    The problem isn't the cars or the workers, it's the economy folks. Thus the bailout in the hopes that we can restructure to reflect current realities. Part of that is going to be better educating the public on what kinds of vehicles they should be demanding rather than what they seem to want now.
  630. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: D K from Canada writes: Canadians are rich.. they can afford to give money to American companies.

    _________________

    And Japanese companies too.
  631. Dave Little from From Ontario, where flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: So now we have Dumb and Dumber (Harper & McGinty) handing 2 private corporations from the States our money, hmmmmmmm this seems a bit odd smelling. Corporate welfare for the rich. I think I'll get in my Lear jet and go to Ottawa and Queen's Park and ask for a handout too.

    Antonio Bach of Calgary, you are just so wrong on this one. 'Had Layton been in charge, they'll be getting twice that amount...' Your man Harper is fighting for his political life and having to hold in all his natural tendencies, which were evident in the so-called fiscal statement on Dec 1/08. The Liberals do not intend to topple the Reform Government of Harper, they are too week-kneed, so we will have another session where they cave on every piece of legislation no matter how putrid, because Harper will use Votes of Confidence on everything. Liberals are quite a pathetic species, and I refer to McGinty as a fine example. He gave Ford a $100 million dollar loan not up to six months ago, repayable in 50 years. These two clowns are throwing our money away, and this is only the first installment, of about $30 Billion and NO guarantees that a single job will be saved or kept: we will leave that up to the companies and the free market to decide.

    Oh, wasn't it Flarherty who just 3 weeks ago said we are going to have a Budget surplus (a speech written by Harper I might add), and budget surpluses for the next 4 years. Those who voted for these idiots should be ashamed of themselves, the Tories are NOT good fiscal managers of our money and never have been, and the Grits are horrible as natural leaders of this country, Dumb and Dumber (Harper & McGinty). Also why are we giving money to a Private Equity Chrysler owner Cerberus Capital Management firm that made more than $100 Billion last year but won't give it a penny now. They also won't show the government their books either, 'That's private business!'.
  632. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: These two may be less concerned over a catastrophic collapse of the auto industry than a catastrophic collapse of their own political fortunes.

    Parliament should examine these deals very closely, and Canadians should demand full disclosure, especially of GM and Chrysler, 70% of which is privately held by Cerberus, which does not publish its financial statements nor reveal in any detail its ownership.

    GM currently has manufacturing centres in 35 countries, including:
    U.S. (40)
    Canada (10)
    Australia (3)
    UK (2)
    Japan (4)
    Mexico (4)
    South Korea (3)
    Germany (3)
    France (2)
    Spain (2)
    Brasil (2)
    Belgium (1)
    Austria (1)
    Italy (1)
    Chile (1)
    Columbia (1)
    Argentina (1)
    Venezuela (1)
    Ecuador (1)
    Egypt (1)
    South Africa (1)
    Thailand (1) and,
    Viet Nam (1).

    (see this link for a complete list: http://tinyurl.com/9kfya9)

    Two plants are scheduled for closure in the U.S. and two in Canada.
    This list does not include large joint ventures in China and Russia.

    So, when Harper and McGuinty talk of the catastrophic collapse of the auto industry, are they talking about the U.S. and Canadian auto industry, or the global industry? And should this bailout perhaps have wider international input?
  633. Common Cents for Dollars from Canada writes: If the government has to give the auto sector money, that money should be used to retool. By retool I mean change the factories to produce Hybrids and laws to ensure that after that most new cars are Hybrids. Since the government is payhing for the retool, passing laws to put a 100% tax on new, full-fuel using cars after 2012 is possible. To help consumers move towards hybrids, give a tax deduction for people that buy a hybrid, businesses that move towards Hybrids in the course of their work, and have a tax that starts in 2012 (5% of vehicle black book value) and goes up 5% a year to put the real cost of pollution in tha hands of the polluter. Make it easier for business to do business! Amazingly enough, something as easy as making cheese in Canada is strangled by monopolistic bureaucracy which controls milk making the Canadian consumer overpay for a basic commodity. There is a strong demand for English Stilton in Canada, something that is not made in Canada and with the stranglehold on milk, never will be. Every year now the tariff rate quota runs out and we wait till January when importers are 'allowed' to bring some in without paying a Canadian 200% duty. Bring the 200% duty down to 20% & the Canadian government will increase its revenue. Not much, only a couple of million, but with the deficit looming, I shake my head when I see some of the insane Liberal tariff rate quotas in place to restrict trade, business, and more importantly, stop cold new, smaller businesses from starting.
  634. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ....money, money everywhere and not a sou to the deserving poor....at Christmas even!!!!....what happened?...did the terrorists win?...eat your heart out Charles Dickens!!!!......the thing is that, thanks to Gordo, we have been double whammed here in paradise....we have to pay for the Olympics with the attendant cruise ships, lawsuits...etc...because we really don't want to p!ss off the scalpers....but we're really scared that, by the time the big 3 is finished with the public purse, there will be no more currency printing paper left.......
  635. Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: It's funny how far people think 4 billion dollars will go. 4 Billion is a tiny percentage of what NA auto manufacturrs spend in a year, why do people think that providing a single digit percentage point of production they should be able to tell the industry how to do everything? I mean if you only owned 1% of GMs shares, do you really think you can tell them to completely restructure and how?

    4 billion dollars put in perspective, is the equivalent of buying 200,000 $20,000 cars. That's a drop in the bucket folks. You do realise investors have many times more that invested right?
  636. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Sweeney Todd, I am focused DUDE. It was ok then for MY money to build crap in YOUR city, but it's not ok for YOUR money to help MY community? Spoken like a true BLUE Toronto native.
  637. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Common Cents for Dollars from Canada writes: 'If the government has to give the auto sector money, that money should be used to retool. By retool I mean change the factories to produce Hybrids and laws to ensure that after that most new cars are Hybrids. Since the government is payhing for the retool, passing laws to put a 100% tax on new, full-fuel using cars after 2012 is possible. To help consumers move towards hybrids, give a tax deduction for people that buy a hybrid, businesses that move towards Hybrids in the course of their work, and have a tax that starts in 2012 (5% of vehicle black book value) and goes up 5% a year to put the real cost of pollution in tha hands of the polluter.'

    =========================================

    The amount committed by the gov't isn't even close to being enough to pay to re-tool anything.

    The Canadian market isn't big enough to support a stand-alone auto manufacturing business - for anything - including hybrids. Unless you can get our US cousins to buy hybrids - or people here are willing to pay $100,000 or more a unit here - it'll never happen. The US consumer is broke, and can't get credit, and regardless of what you tree-huggers are hoping, he's not going to buy a Zenn, or hybrid, or anything else. And that situation isn't changing anytime soon.
  638. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Sweeney Todd, I am focused DUDE. It was ok then for MY money to build crap in YOUR city, but it's not ok for YOUR money to help MY community? Spoken like a true BLUE Toronto native.

    ============================================

    I'm not convinced that you're all THAT focused. You see where I'm posting from, right?
  639. double mike from Mississauga, Canada writes: Norm Jom from Petawawa, Canada writes: It's funny how far people think 4 billion dollars will go. 4 Billion is a tiny percentage of what NA auto manufacturrs spend in a year, why do people think that providing a single digit percentage point of production they should be able to tell the industry how to do everything? I mean if you only owned 1% of GMs shares, do you really think you can tell them to completely restructure and how?

    4 billion dollars put in perspective, is the equivalent of buying 200,000 $20,000 cars. That's a drop in the bucket folks. You do realise investors have many times more that invested right?
    ================================
    Market capitalization of GM is $2.74 Billion US. Amount of this “loan” of ours could’ve bought this miserable excuse of a company lock, stock and barrel.
    .
  640. Dave Little from From Ontario, where flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: Roger C pretty soon your North American car will be built in Mexico, I refer to the NAFTA agreement.

    The only catastrophic collapse that Dumb and Dumber are talking about are their two political hides.

    The only reason GM has branch plants in these other countries is to allow GM to sell their lousy automobiles in other world markets. Isn't it wonderful, that a multi-national company based in the US has such power. The corporate agenda by large US conglomerates has shifted into the next phase of world domination. Governments do not have the power to stop the Multi-nationals, and George W Bush just handed over the last piece of the government sovereignty. Way to go George, the dumbest of all. Now not to be out done, Harpo and McGuilty (Dumb and Dumber) had to get in on the act. we are truely being lead to the precipice by a band of fools.
  641. economic slave from Toronto, Canada writes: I keep reading articles about the 4 billion dollar bailout, and other than executives will be taking pay cuts, what other cutbacks will the unions and management be making for this money. In the U.S. the unions gave up their 95% salary and benefits which they receive when they are laid off. I'd like to have complete details of what concessions the auto industry is making for this money. Anyone else feel this way?
  642. The Rules from Ottawa, Canada writes: Seems lime a rock and hard place.

    Dont give money and see people loose their jobs.

    Give the money and treat those already making good money and their corporate lords like special citizens at the expense of those that are not so lucky and or already lost or loosing their jobs.

    Seems to me that we need to ensure an orderly bankruptcy that sees the auto industry shrink to one or at best two much smaller companies but as importantly we need to see the same kind of help to those not in the auto industry or union and or government protected jobs

    We that are not in these protected areas need the help now but unfortunately we have no one in power really speaking for us.
  643. Ob Server from Canada writes: We've been snookered. On the one hand, every Canadian supports a healthy economy and the threat of devastation, armageddon even, by the car companies is enough to make everyone quake in their moccassins. The other side of it though requires some thought and serious questions like: If the CAW refuses to negotiate, as they have already indicated, what then? or Who actually gets the money and what will it be used for and who decides? or What will happen in those 90 days to materially change these car company's prospects....will people buy cars in vast numbers in a major recession? or What about the past and the hundreds of billions they blew in good times....is that a fair indicator of what will happen in the next few months? or If there is a plan to materially change their prospects wouldn't we have already seen it? Let's see the plan now before we hand over untold Billions. These companies need a miracle to save them....is it in the cards? I guess the bottom line is that I feel they won't be able to pull rabbits out of their hats mainly because I don't trust Wagoner and Cerberus....this latter which owns Chrysler, is flush with cash and refuses to invest more of their money in their own company....Why? Maybe I'm too cynical but I think what we've done is postpone the inevitable. I hope not but I see no miracles on the horizon...If N.A.'s ain't buying today, they certainly won't be buyin' 1, 2 or 3 months from now. I may be wrong....I hope so.
  644. Dave Little from From Ontario, where flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: A further check shows:

    Chrysler currently has manufacturing centres in 3 countries, including:
    U.S. (22)
    Canada (3)
    Mexico (3)

    Please remember that you are giving your hard earned tax dollars to Cerberus Capital Management (owners of Chrysler) to support an American Private Equity Corporation and they have no intention of using any of their own money (profits last year estimated at $ 100,000,000,000.00 dollars U.S., that's Billions) to support one of their own businesses, does that not tell you something??? I think the red flags should be going off right about now. Harpo and McGuilty (Dumb and Dumber) are not doing this because it is right, they know that you have forgotten that they wasted your tax money by the time they go for re-election.
  645. NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: I will make my post short and simple for all to understand: Harper has betrayed Canada PERIOD !
  646. Alan Craigie from Aberdeen, writes: The only thing that subsidizing businesses produces is businesses that need subsidies. Better to provide one time startup capital for new car companies that would be unencumbered by overpaid CAW louts.
  647. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Sorry Sweeney, True BLUE OILBERTAN. LOL
  648. R. P. from nowhere, writes: Wow Alan, Louts? I haven't been called that yet. How about Scum? Bums? Losers? Whiners? Any of those, but PLEASE not a LOUT.
  649. John Peterson from Canada writes: The CAW won't negotiate??? Who the hell do these people think they are. Beggars can't be choosers.
  650. Dave Little from From Ontario, where flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies got it right. Harper did lie to get your vote. One more soul has been saved.
  651. R. P. from nowhere, writes: John Peterson, The CAW DID negotiate. This past summer. The contract is public knowledge. Now, isn't it ILLEGAL to break a legally binding contract?
  652. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: 'We cannot afford ... a catastrophic collapse' --- Always the same blackmail, re: the economy, Afghanistan, radical action on the environment, the coalition, non-confidence votes in Parliament, keeping the House opened, wire-tapping, the rule of law, democracy, etc. etc. etc. .... 'We cannot afford... a catastrophic collapse (of our arbitrary entitlement and power).' --- We need lower taxes for the true majority on whose shoulders the future of this country rests. That true majority cannot afford more and more taxes for themselves, their children and grandchildren, to bailout the failed obese, the visionless, the planless, and the already bankrupt. --- Mobilize!
  653. Eric Williams from Ottawa, Canada writes: Giving money to a failing business is a hard one to swallow. I believe these billions will help avoid the economic catastrophe due to a sudden bankruptcy of the Big 3 (following as it is the financial collapse and the global recession). But it will not heal the Big 3, it will only slow it's demise.
  654. Dave Little from From Ontario, where Flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: Let's see know: Rick Wagoner, GM chief executive officer, made close to $3 Million (3,000,000) last year, salary, options, corporate jet, and bonuses. The bonuses I have come to conclude are for running a well run company into the ground as fast as you can. The faster you run it into the ground the larger your bonuses will be. Please refer to the banking scandals of 2008, anyone remember Bear Sterns??????

    The assembly line worker might make $60,000 which is 2 percent of Wagoners' salary, with no options, no jet, and no bonuses, nor a golden parachute once they are laid-off.

    Isn't Capitalism great, the workers are treated like dirt, the executives cry poverty and are paid 50 times what the worker gets and everyone wants the people who actually make this system work to pay for the executives' mistakes. Who has to cut the wages the workers, not the executives. Something is really wrong here
  655. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ....what we can afford is to spend our treasure and our precious blood so that little girls get to go to school......
  656. R. P. from nowhere, writes: John Peterson, The CAW gave major concessions in the last contract. Wage freeze for 3 years, cost of living freeze, prescription co-pay, reduced vacations, new workers make 30% less to start. Also alot of language in the contract to benefit the Company. We HAVE made concessions.
  657. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: .....is there a war out there the we can't afford?......Canada can't afford Stephen Harper.....
  658. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Sorry Sweeney, True BLUE OILBERTAN. LOL

    =========================================

    I was born & spent most of my life in southern ON, but I never lived in Toronto. I only moved to AB couple of years ago, because I could see the writing on the wall for Manufacturingland ON. Nobody subsidized any job I ever had in ON. Nobody subsidized ANYTHING for my family to relocate to AB. Take some responsibility for yourself & your family. The auto biz in North America is on the ropes, and the Detroit 3 are DOA. Suck it up, and move on. I did, so can you.
  659. Dave Little from From Ontario, where Flarhety wouldn't want you to invest taxpayer money, Canada writes: We did form a MAJORITY, they called it a COALITION, and that infuriated Harpo. The majority did NOT vote for the Tories, thank goodness for small miracles.

    '>' aren't you being a bit harsh?
  660. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    I think the CAW should accept a three year wage freeze.

    They should lose a weeks vacation every year.

    They should have a drastic co-pay for drugs

    They should agree to less union reps and new shop floor work rules.

    They should agree to out source some of their work.

    They should agree to a lower wage for new hires.

    They should have no cost of living increases.

    They should have no pension increases.

    They should have no lump sum at retirement.

    They should give up the extra for working three rotating shifts.

    OH Wait...They did all that ...this year. and more

    The CAW opened their contracts in the spring of 2008 to help their employers.

    The CAW wants the auto companies to succeed.
  661. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: I've got an idea - how about we simply reclaim all the assets and income from anyone who has gotten rich over the last 10 or 15 years in the financial sector? It's time we rebalanced the books in favor of value-creating members of society - and took something back from the parasitic investment bankers that got us into this mess in the first place.
  662. Mark S Noel from Canada writes: These unions need to be gutted. Their '70s work ideology doesn't work in the new century. Employees are paid to work, not be 'entitled to their entitlements'.
  663. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ......if Stevie were really clever, master tactician that he is.......he may wish that he had allowed the Coalition of the All-Too-Willing to wear all this inevitable bailout stuff.....lay low in the reeds, and come roaring back to a majority government when human nature sets in, the sweetness in the milk-shakes gets sour..... and the financial stool hits the fan....but a lusting for power got in the way of common sense......pity!...
  664. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: This cannibalistic world order has come to an end. The neoliberal front is discredited. All can now see that the true masters of this world are those financial oligarchs and speculators whose mode of operation is greed. -- Who wrote that in La Presse, today? Swiss sociologist emeritus at the university of Geneva and special UN rapporteur on the right to food, professor Jean Ziegler.
  665. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada - At the end of the day, it just doesn't matter what the CAW has done, or will do. The D3 CANNOT sell enough of their products to remain in business. It's unfortunate, but that is the bottom line. And it doesn't matter what happens on this side of the border. US consumers need to buy D3 cars for these businesses to keep going. They're not, and they're not going to, because they can't get credit.

    The game is over. The fat lady is singing. D3 employees, and most of the employees of the parts makers should be looking at the money that is being put-up by gov'ts as enough to give them a bit of time to figure out what they're going to do 'Post D3'. I figure they've got about 3 months - tops. And it's not like I'm posting with one of those stupid 'LOL' things either. I take no satisfaction at all in this situation. It's a tragedy for the workers and their families, and the economic pain will touch everybody in the country. We simply cannot pour money into factories to produce cars that nobody can buy. Sorry.
  666. Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: This board is unbearable. So many people seem to think that the answer is somehow every Canadian worker making $12 per hour. Our economy has been growing at 3% real rate for decades, workers real salaries have not risen, so where has the wealth gone? It's not in labour's hands. Despite this every no-brain Sun Newspaper reader laps up the conservative talking points and argues against their own cause and well-being.
  667. NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Feds to pump $800M into Alberta projects

    Alberta, Ottawa team up with $798M infrastructure package

    POT ......... MEET KETTLE !!

    There are more Canadians living in the GTA, than in any other province in Canada, with the exception of Ontario or Quebec.
  668. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: .....this crisis it turning out to be Stevie's undoing......his words, his actions and his lack thereof have all served to bare his secretive soul for all to see....even among his most ardent fans, the bloom on the rose is beginning to wilt.....
  669. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Feds to pump $800M into Alberta projects

    Alberta, Ottawa team up with $798M infrastructure package

    POT ......... MEET KETTLE !!

    There are more Canadians living in the GTA, than in any other province in Canada, with the exception of Ontario or Quebec.

    ========================================

    Did you actually READ the story you're referring to? The money is for municipal infrastructure projects, not to bail out private sector companies.
  670. double mike from Canada writes: .
    Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    I think the CAW should accept a three year wage freeze....

    Honesty, I know you couldn't care less, but my colleagues and I for example have never had any of the perks you mentioned. Neither we will ever have. There is no notion of overtime in our field. You just do whatever it needs to be done to complete the task at hands. We still produce goods and services which go for export and sell good enough to keep our company above the water. But with this loans of yours which I anticipate to go sour in no time the taxes will go up and there won't be any incentive for our company's owners to keep the operation running in Canada.

    So how should I personally feel about the 'loans'?
    .
  671. Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Feds to pump $800M into Alberta projects

    Alberta, Ottawa team up with $798M infrastructure package

    POT ......... MEET KETTLE !!

    There are more Canadians living in the GTA, than in any other province in Canada, with the exception of Ontario or Quebec.

    ========================================

    Did you actually READ the story you're referring to? The money is for municipal infrastructure projects, not to bail out private sector companies.

    ======================================
    As a 'trained economist,' although unfortunately of the discredited Milton Friedman Chicago school of thought, PM Harper must realize that Alberta needs a cash injection particularly since 3 - 4% unemployment is looming and loose money has driven up costs and inflation while contributing to such a tight labour market that the Province is recruiting Mexican and other developing country labours to move to Alberta - what a waste of money. No this can't be political.
  672. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Feds to pump $800M into Alberta projects

    ....although the latter is not a bailout....do you seriously expect Stevie to minister unto Ontario and not simultaneously lubricate his Western separatist base as well?......
  673. Tom Barak from Canada writes: And to think people expected government to be responsible with our tax dollars. Shame on you. Well my fellow Canadians, lets all hold hands and collectively bend over.
  674. double mike from Canada writes: Tom Barak from Canada writes: And to think people expected government to be responsible with our tax dollars. Shame on you. Well my fellow Canadians, lets all hold hands and collectively bend over.

    Even lower? How is it possible?
    .
  675. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: 'As a 'trained economist,' although unfortunately of the discredited Milton Friedman Chicago school of thought, PM Harper must realize that Alberta needs a cash injection particularly since 3 - 4% unemployment is looming and loose money has driven up costs and inflation while contributing to such a tight labour market that the Province is recruiting Mexican and other developing country labours to move to Alberta - what a waste of money. No this can't be political.'

    ============================================

    So, why were there ANY unemployed people in the ROC while the boom was on, here in AB? If THEY had come here, nobody would have gone to Mexico, or India, or the Phillipines looking for help. I think that it's a national disgrace that many Canadians wouldn't come out here to fill well-paid jobs.

    And why is infrastructure work in AB a waste of money? A LOT of people DID move here over the last few years. The infrastructure is beyond 'maxed-out' in many areas. I guess we don't need streets, water treatment plants, hospitals, sewers, etc. What do you figure - that we don't pay federal taxes here? Be careful what you wish for - there is a sizable portion of the population here, that would very much be 'OK' with that.

    Instead of crying about what AB is getting, why don't you see what's on the books for where YOU live? Or - god forbid - come on out AND GET A JOB!
  676. NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Quoted by NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada :
    ' Feds to pump $800M into Alberta projects

    Alberta, Ottawa team up with $798M infrastructure package

    POT ......... MEET KETTLE !!

    There are more Canadians living in the GTA, than in any other province in Canada, with the exception of Ontario or Quebec. '

    ========================================

    Quoted by Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada 'Did you actually READ the story you're referring to? The money is for municipal infrastructure projects, not to bail out private sector companies.'

    ========================

    Yes I did read the article.......and basically the near 1 Billion dollars for Alberta is a giveaway FREE MONEY !! The Detroit 3 is a LOAN that must be repaid, You Neocon A$$hole...open your stitched-shut eyes and put a brain in your head !!
  677. Tor Hill from Canada writes: As far as I am concerned, this is the first Christmas that truly reflects the spirit of the age (mean-spiritedness). A system gone wild from greed and profit while humble and decent people scrabble about for a living. Surely there are some conditions attached to this bailout? Didn't GM burn McGuinty a few years back by shutting a plant down after receiving a nice infusion of big cash?
  678. Malcolm MacKay from Canada writes: I am going to repost this, as I have not recieved an answer.........honestly. I don't understand!

    You (Malcolm MacKay, from Canada) wrote: I may be ignorant on this, but I thought porouge meant that government was shut down and out of business for now. Are there no votes on this, and can they just hand out money when it suits them. This sucks big time, as I guess it's business as usual whether the house sits or not.
  679. Glynn W from Canada writes: I'm afraid that a catastrophic collapse is not only all we can afford but should be actively nurtured so that a new transparent system might emerge; not the type of transparency which only appears when people get caught or when there is no more to be had!
  680. John F. from Toronto, Canada writes: Ive been in the manufacturing business for 25 years. I am insulted by the assembly line workers calling themselves 'skilled'. Their salaries are way over what they deserve, which would be the salary of an average un-skilled worker working in any factory. The union is one of the biggest reasons they are and WILL, go belly up soon. The ONLY reason they are getting the bailout cash is political. Their companies were mismanaged, and brought to where thay are now. It is not Hondas, Toyotas, or ant other brands fault. People buy imports for a reason. Not because they hate GM, Ford and Chrysler, but because they too, work har for their money, and are looking for a reliable, fuel efficient car. The unions xenophobe, ignorant, clearly uneducated, comments and demands, are the very reason they will fail. The rest of the country should not be responsible to bail you out. During these times did any of the big three demand someone be responsible in their organisation ? Did any of the CEO's, marketing execs etc, stand accountable for gross incopetance ? Did anyone else notice that while the Japanese were advertising safety, fuel economy and reliability, the big three were advertising the return of useless muscle cars, and huge pickups with extended cabs ? Do the European and Asian car makers not make their cars here, in north America, and employ hundreds of thousands of workers ? Please, take your heads out of your behinds. The money is going to be lost, together with your jobs. And no, its not the tax payers fault, its your bosses fault, and your unions fault. Unions are great at the gimme, gimme gimme, routine, but the fact is, they have not offered nothing to help, other than make sure the nails of the coffin the big three will soon be in, will be nailed nice and tight.
  681. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes:

    'Yes I did read the article.......and basically the near 1 Billion dollars for Alberta is a giveaway FREE MONEY !! The Detroit 3 is a LOAN that must be repaid, You Neocon A$$hole...open your stitched-shut eyes and put a brain in your head !!'

    =========================================

    So if you can't argue facts, resort to name-calling? Very clever...

    Anyway, two points.

    1/ We pay federal taxes here in AB. The population has increased significantly over the last few years. We are somehow undeserving of services like water, sewers, schools, hospitals, roads, etc? Really?

    2/ Anyone who images that they'll ever see a nickel of taxpayers money repaid by the D3 is naive beyond words. There's not enough market for their product to keep them in business. It's over.

    I'm looking forward to your well thought out and cleverly worded response.
  682. S Guy from Canada writes:
    This will be the first of many many bailouts for these American automakers, ABCP, municipalities, forestry, mining, perhaps oil services soon given $33 oil, etc...

    Yes, short term gain but long term much more pain. Printing money today to flood the market doesnt produce any value in the long term. Its a mirage.

    Your children and grandchildren will be paying for these mistakes for decades.
  683. T M from Canada writes:
    Sorry I was out, so my cell phone doesn't tell the time well. I hope the interest rate falls to 0.4% then a stagnation will result; this will be good for the Canadian economy.
  684. jamie yavis from Canada writes: After reading so many of the comments here, which some are very, very good and bring great information to the table, it's a given that the government had to give money to support the short-term needs. That can be debated back and forth, but the answer will remain the same. As for the auto company's do they deserve it, no! As for the workers yes they did deserve it - yes! Two reasons why the D3 got in this mess was their execs were out of touch with their poor product reliability, thinking they could just spend their way through advertising to finding buyers. The other reason was the availability of 'in-demand' autos that gave a variety of purchasers what they wanted, at prices they could afford and were almost trouble free. Now it seems reasonable that once the $4B aspirin is given, that a long-lasting cure is found. And it should start with the axing of current D3 execs to quickly change their operating style, along with drastic salary and benefit reductions for the managing echelon of companies that come to government hat in hand. Next temporary import taxes should be raised across the board for every product coming into North America to help pay for the bailouts and to encourage own-continental purchasing; temporary, to say to the manufacturers that you have this amount of time to get your house in order and in that time you must become competitive through quality of product, or you will simply disappear. Out sourcing stopped! If a product, or service is provide by a developing nation that has less strict environmental policies, or where the wages paid there are 25% less than the equivalent job here, then there should be another levy collected to be put into a Canadian worker, or environmental related fund. What is happening now is just crazy! And something, or someone has to start getting the job done instead of this silly shell game that is being played out.
  685. r b from Calgary, Canada writes: Think about this (yes I know that thinking is hard for many of you hardened socialists, and apparently even harder for you Keynesians):

    Every $1 billion in print and spend stimulus represents the equivalent of about 1% of the total federal income tax take from Canadians.

    Therefore the $30 billion 'stimulus' deficit being bandied about, which includes bailout bucks like those of the article, represents, for each taxpayer, the equivalent of a 30% rebate on our income taxes. Look at you last paycheck or remittance form: what would 30% less federal income tax, or the rebate equivalent, mean to you?

    So, which 'stimulus' package is going to encourage you to buy more cars? Would it be the government throwing fancified welfare and EI benefits to workers pumping out cars that will sit unbought, or would it be the government throwing back your taxes to you so that you could afford to buy those cars being pumped out by auto workers?

    Gee, that's a tough one.
  686. Hans Wolf from Kelowna, Canada writes: R. P. from nowhere, writes: Bailouts...Alberta seeks tax breaks on oilsands G&M; 8/12/08. Help forestry Industry B.C urges. G&M; 25/11/08. Ontario gives BC $5,000,000 for Olympics. (Alberta...$100,000) Wow ,seems to me everyone wants a bailout.
    Posted 20/12/08 at 1:58 PM EST | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment
    _______________________________________________
    I agree with you. I live in B.C. and as a Provincial taxpayer I have had no choice to vote for or against the Olympics. Most of the B.C. taxpayers did not want them here. B.C. has the worst child poverty in Canada. Guess what all the money wasted on the Olympics could have done to our healthcare system instead of making some more millionaires and billionaires. Wait for the next Provincial election next year.
  687. Brian C from Canada writes:
    That's works out to $120 per Canadian, male, female, young and old.

    The US bailout works out to $57 per person.

    That's money well wasted.

    How are the big 3 going to suddenly become viable in 3 months when they haven't been able to over the last several years?
  688. double mike from Canada writes: jamie yavis from Canada writes:
    Next temporary import taxes should be raised across the board for every product coming into North America to help pay for the bailouts and to encourage own-continental purchasing; temporary, to say to the manufacturers that you have this amount of time to get your house in order and in that time you must become competitive through quality of product, or you will simply disappear. Out sourcing stopped! If a product, or service is provide by a developing nation that has less strict environmental policies, or where the wages paid there are 25% less than the equivalent job here, then there should be another levy collected to be put into a Canadian worker, or environmental related fund.

    Bravo! The best recipe for economical, political and humanitarian disaster I've seen here for a while. Last time they tried something like that it ended up in Great Depression and caused WW II.
    WW III anybody?
    .
  689. T M from Canada writes:
    $74 dollars an hour, I think this is a good rate. With $12 an hour in Edmonton is only the minimum wage, the price of everything has gone up 30%... ie. check with a builder to have your basement built, you will be surprised to find out how much it is.
  690. David MacPhail from Canada writes: Does anyone on this blog believe that the executives at companies like General Motors didn't see the wall rushing up at them for years now? As more than one poster has pointed out GM just built an ultramodern facility in China. I think it safe to assume that if GM tanks in North America their facilities in other countries will not be impacted.

    Some form of protectionism is almost a certainty in the global economic meltdown. Out of this will come a hue and cry to rebuild North American auto plants at a huge cost. Even if the 3 D do this they still have the union contracts in place. So they would be in even worse shape than they are now. One doesn;t have to be a financial wizard to see that this option is not viable. What to do? Go out of business after building new plants overseas? I think not.

    Shuttering the doors of North American plants and importing big 3 cars from countries like China is not an option. Even us meek Canadians would raise hell. How about this scenario. Our government bodies provide a cash loan (bail out) with all sorts of conditions attached. After a valiant attempt at making a go of it the 3 D default and tank. No more big 3. But then again no more union contracts. Taxpayers' cash helps soften the cost of ditching North American manufacturing facilities. Maybe our government would even take them over (God help us). Don't laugh.

    But wait, GM is not dead - not by a long shot. They are now churning out fuel efficient cars that Canadians want at a price we can actually afford. How can we refuse to accept their entry into our country with minimal tariffs. At least a few Canadians might get work servicing them (if they even need servicing).
  691. Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: So, why were there ANY unemployed people in the ROC while the boom was on, here in AB? If THEY had come here, nobody would have gone to Mexico, or India, or the Phillipines looking for help. I think that it's a national disgrace that many Canadians wouldn't come out here to fill well-paid jobs.

    And why is infrastructure work in AB a waste of money? A LOT of people DID move here over the last few years. The infrastructure is beyond 'maxed-out' in many areas. I guess we don't need streets, water treatment plants, hospitals, sewers, etc. What do you figure - that we don't pay federal taxes here? Be careful what you wish for - there is a sizable portion of the population here, that would very much be 'OK' with that.

    Instead of crying about what AB is getting, why don't you see what's on the books for where YOU live? Or - god forbid - come on out AND GET A JOB!
    ==================================

    My post is about primping an already booming economy. I'm from the Prairies and half my family lives in Alberta. Imagine if Quebec was booming and the announcement was for $1billion of Federal government money to Quebec city infrastructure, I'm sure you would of course see the need and say 'Quebec infrastructure is maxed out, lets primp their overheated economy'. If you're honest you are probably finding that you are a hypocrite right now. I've frequently found Albertans who hint at separation to be the ones who loudly condemn Quebecers as whiners willing to hold the country up for ransom.

    Maybe you should try planned orderly growth, you know when responsible governments take steps to direct growth before an economy is overheated and chaotic. That way people dont have to live in tent cities while real estate prices triple.

    I'm gainfully employed where I am although I'm sure I would enjoy your strip malls, $600k bungalows and traffic jams.
  692. Michael Peter from Canada writes: The government expects job loses. Harper talks about retraining and moving people where there are jobs. The scenario is grim.
  693. T Scott from Toronto, Canada writes: neil b from edmonton, Canada writes: reason passion from Canada writes: Neil b - Oil's hovering at about $40 a barrel...About the same as your average Ontario auto worker makes in an hour, and contributing less to tax revenues on the dollar. Try going your own way on that.

    OK reason...Can we keep the $8,000,000,000.00 we give to you if we leave? Can Saskatchewan keep all their surplus as well? WE will take the Yukon and the NWT as well. BC would probably want in also.

    Sounds good. Where do we sign?

    You get the humping dog on your leg called qbek. ..................................................................................................................Uh, sure neil, if Ontario can keep the 23-24 Billion per year it sends to Canaduh every year, including now while supposedly a 'have not' province. Oh and all of the money generated by our tax base, and as well, the money contributed to UI (hell this should put us above the national average!!!)...yes please, do leave. It would be good for Ontario if both the west and quebec did. My god, our population is on pace to match Australia's within 15-20 years, we don't need you. So go ahead and go your own way. P.S. the federal money being used for this bailout is basically ours anyway....snore.....
  694. T M from Canada writes:

    This auto industry situation will never exist in Japan, China or Hong Kong. I am quite annoyed because in other countries, not only do the people (the tycoons) pump billions of dollars to save the industries, they also want their economies to survive. The Western countries are doing the exact opposites.
  695. NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada wrote: ' So if you can't argue facts, resort to name-calling? Very clever... ' Anyway, two points. 1/ We pay federal taxes here in AB. The population has increased significantly over the last few years. We are somehow undeserving of services like water, sewers, schools, hospitals, roads, etc? Really? 2/ Anyone who images that they'll ever see a nickel of taxpayers money repaid by the D3 is naive beyond words. There's not enough market for their product to keep them in business. It's over. I'm looking forward to your well thought out and cleverly worded response. ================= Ontario is in dire need of water, sewer, road, highway and other infrastructure requirements. Based on per capita population, I would estimate Ontarians pay 5x's the federal tax your province contributes....so why can Ontario not be given those same resources ? Well, you are obviously nothing but an Alberta separatist so why not call to your precious leader harper (get him out of my country....the Canada most Canadians know and love) and separate from Canada, using your Alberta 15.8 BILLION dollar 'Rainy Day Fund' as rightie Wilma calls it. Do your home schooling, live in your religious hypocritical beliefs, ignore the environmental problems plaguing our planet, continue to perpetuate the oil addiction and have fun !! Don't let the screen door smack you on the way out !! Now that the price of oil is tanking, Alberta is wanting a rescue package from Canadians for their precious oil sands !! Truly Pathetic http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2008/12/08/7672586.html
  696. NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada wrote: ' So if you can't argue facts, resort to name-calling? Very clever... ' Anyway, two points. 1/ We pay federal taxes here in AB. The population has increased significantly over the last few years. We are somehow undeserving of services like water, sewers, schools, hospitals, roads, etc? Really? 2/ Anyone who images that they'll ever see a nickel of taxpayers money repaid by the D3 is naive beyond words. There's not enough market for their product to keep them in business. It's over. I'm looking forward to your well thought out and cleverly worded response. ================= Ontario is in dire need of water, sewer, road, highway and other infrastructure requirements. Based on per capita population, I would estimate Ontarians pay 5x's the federal tax your province contributes....so why can Ontario not be given those same resources ? Well, you are obviously nothing but an Alberta separatist so why not call to your precious leader harper (get him out of my country....the Canada most Canadians know and love) and separate from Canada, using your Alberta 15.8 BILLION dollar 'Rainy Day Fund' as rightie Wilma calls it. Do your home schooling, live in your religious hypocritical beliefs, ignore the environmental problems plaguing our planet, continue to perpetuate the oil addiction and have fun !! Don't let the screen door smack you on the way out !! Now that the price of oil is tanking, Alberta is wanting a rescue package from Canadians for their precious oil sands !! Truly Pathetic http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2008/12/08/7672586.html
  697. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: I agree we don't need a catastrophic collapse of the Auto Industry.

    We need an amortized collapse with minimal impact to the over burdened tax payer.

    As President Bush said we need 'an orderly bankruptcy'.

    The Unions must face the inevitable, Chapter 11 is just around the corner.

    Obama will likely commitment funding to allow 'an orderly bankruptcy'

    Is Canada prepared to match the Obama bail out at the same % of the Bush bail out of the Auto Industry.

    I hope the budget includes $200 billion bail out funds or the NDP and Liberals will trash the government.
    .
  698. tom johnson from mississauga, Canada writes: Brian C from Canada writes:
    How are the big 3 going to suddenly become viable in 3 months when they haven't been able to over the last several years?

    FORD IS NOT ASKING FOR MONEY PEOPLE, IT'S THE BIG TWO.
    FURTHER, I KNEW THE SPINELESS WIMP (HARPER) WOULD FLIP - FLOP, SO, I NEVER WORRIED ABOUT MY JOB AT GM.

    PS: TO THE DUMMIES WEST OF ONTARIO, IT'S OUR OWN MONEY WE'RE BORROWING (AT OVER 5% INTEREST) SO......BITE ME.
  699. T M from Canada writes:
    'Maybe you should try planned orderly growth, you know when responsible governments take steps to direct growth before an economy is overheated and chaotic. That way people dont have to live in tent cities while real estate prices triple. '

    Yeah how about sustainable growth or reduced growth when the economy is at a contraction. Our real estate prices compare to Vancouver's, it is a big ways away.
  700. censured ... from Canada writes: ...as unwilling stakeholders in outdated companies...we also can't afford underperforming over-entitled workers who are prepared to take other peoples money to poorly construct cars that no one wants to buy. I wish that the US and Canadian governments could force the US/CDN automakers and Japanese auto makers to swap workforce with full rights to dismiss...my guess is that the Big 3 would improve quality and profitability and the Japanese auto makers would dismiss most of their workforce and give up on the North American market.
  701. Doug Edwards from rural, Canada writes: These companies were in trouble long before the current economic problems hit us. Handing over taxpayer money to failing companies won't solve anything unless they are prepared to do some things significantly differently.

    I earn less than $14 per hour and don't have company provided pension and health benefits. I don't want my tax dollars going to subsidise people that earn far more than I ever will.

    If this in fact happens I will do what I can to punish my MP.
  702. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Centrist 1867 from Canada:

    I never said that I was for separation - only that there's a section of the population here that would happily entertain the idea. I don't see how treating AB as a milch cow for the CAW is going to do anything but drive more Albertans to surf by the separatist web sites, do you?

    Let's stick to reality here, OK? The Quebec economy hasn't boomed since Bill 101 was introduced over 30 years ago. That ship sailed - and sank - decades ago.

    Actually, coming from ON, I find the hands-off approach by the provincial gov't here VERY refreshing. Having spent most of my life in ON, I have extensive first-hand experience with 'government planning' on pretty much everything. Every time I hear a politician claim that 'he has a plan', I instinctively put my hand on my wallet. My pocket has been picked far too many times. And, oddly enough, in spite of no-end of 'planning', nothing ever really got better. If we were lucky, things were different, but no worse. Normally, they were MUCH worse after 'the plan' was implimented. But at least I got to pay through the nose for it. Ah, memories ...

    And, where DO you live & work, and how much federal money is earmarked for infrastructure projects there?

    Just wondering.
  703. T M from Canada writes:
    'FORD IS NOT ASKING FOR MONEY PEOPLE, IT'S THE BIG TWO.'

    It really doesn't matter to me, big 3 or big 4. These are just corporate greed.
  704. double mike from Mississauga, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes:Yes I did read the article.......and basically the near 1 Billion dollars for Alberta is a giveaway FREE MONEY !! The Detroit 3 is a LOAN that must be repaid, You Neocon A$$hole...open your stitched-shut eyes and put a brain in your head !!

    Ahem... Do you mean the government’s done something it is really supposed to do with our tax money for a change? Like invest in infrastructure? How nice of them! Who could’ve expected?

    And BTW could you please move a little bit farther away? You are spitting at my monitor. Thanks.
  705. Mark Miller from Vancouver, Canada writes: 4 billion to save the auto industry? Absolutely ridiculous. So sorry Ontario, but it's a waste of money - my money. As for auto workers not wanting to make concessions, there's no way a dying industry being given a bailout should pay its workers top dollar.
  706. K D from Canada writes:
    What people don't get here is that while the big 3 were having problems before, no one anticipated sales dripping off 30-45% in a matter of 2-3 months. NO ONE!

    No one anticipated oil soaring to $145 and killing truck sales, no one anticipated a complete collapse of the credit markets and few saw the deep recession coming 5 months ago either. These are extreme conditions, a tsunami and perfect storm so to speak.

    Lots of people with great hind sight here, it's getting really old though. Arm chair economist, great. Giving the big three loans is giving them time to restructure and adjust and not allowing economic chaos to ensue and that is a good thing.
  707. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: ...2/ Anyone who images that they'll ever see a nickel of taxpayers money repaid by the D3 is naive beyond words. There's not enough market for their product to keep them in business. It's over.

    ______________________________

    The market will come back or 'it's over' applies to your chosen field as well.
  708. T M from Canada writes: 10:44

    Yes short-term indeed on these bailouts. Someone is right, I heard these corporations will declare bankruptcies next year. Why not if they can get away with it?
  709. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: T M from Canada writes:
    $74 dollars an hour, I think this is a good rate. With $12 an hour in Edmonton is only the minimum wage, the price of everything has gone up 30%... ie. check with a builder to have your basement built, you will be surprised to find out how much it is.

    ______________________________________

    Do people not read? no auto worker makes $74 per hour.

    Try some facts here:
    theglobeandmail.com

    .
  710. diane marie from Canada writes: Freddie Fender:-- Atwoodism? Why are those on the right seemingly unable to express themselves without using people's names as (misleading) short-forms for ideas that they fear? Is it because it is easier to hate a person than to articulate why one might disagree with an idea? I do know that its much easier to rouse the rabble that way. Are you employing the dark arts of military college on these fora?
  711. Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: Where is the infrastructure money going? I haven't looked but my cynical guess would be the majority will go as rewards for political support as well as spent in ridings where inroads can be made in pursuit of a majority government. You know; the way that tax dollars were pumped into Quebec and the suburbs of Toronto before last election. The background to my post is that there are things you do for the long-term good of the country and then there are things you do for political ends. This is why Federal government program spending is at record levels although we lap up the 'steady hand at the tiller' nonsense. Perhaps I became a little too testy, I tend to do this when regional interests seem to me to be placed above the good of the country - whether in Quebec or the West. Oh- I'm living in Ontario now for the record.
  712. T M from Canada writes:

    Merry Christmas EVERYONE.
  713. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes:
    Another federal bailout for Alberta:

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/12/20/pf-7813851.html

    Harper has embraced socialism with the fervor of a convert!

    ============================================

    How can even YOU possibly confuse municipal infrastructure projects with an out-and-out bail out of the businesses that are the D3? And one of those - Chrysler - is privately owned by Cerberus, a Wall Street vulture fund!

    Why are you SO desperate to slag Alberta? Why would you support pouring taxpayers cash into a private company over projects that would benefit the average citizens of this country?
    -------------------------

    That money will be poured into mostly private firms - many foreign owned to help stimulate the Alberta economy, an economy with an sustainably low tax structure in the absence of $100/barrel oil, which is in itself a massive subsidy to the private sector. I'm not slagging Alberta, but it is the Alberta CONs who are leading the fight to deindustrialize Ontario and destroy Canada's industrialized heartland, but now they embrace the Keynesian economics that they once belittled, or at least Harper does - in a complete reversal and repudiation of everything he ever espoused or campaigned on. Harper is a complete fraud.
  714. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: Dave Little: Yes, exactly. Cerberus has loads of money, but it is a limited partnership and they have structured their investments so that claims against holdings that go bankrupt cannot reach into their bigger pot.

    Steve Feinberg is one of the principals of Cerberus. The other 'names' are closely held, but we do know that they include former Vice President Dan Quayle, and John Snow, the current President's past Secretary of the Treasury. Cerberus is said to be tightly connected to the Republican Party.

    The very real problem with bailing out Chrysler is (1) they don't need the money, and (2) they are a politically connected, private partnership, who could appoint any past politician they like to a financially rewarding position without anyone being the wiser.

    More information on them in this revealing story by Forbes:

    http://tinyurl.com/7xws6n

    Be careful Canada!
  715. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Doug Edwards from rural, Canada writes: These companies were in trouble long before the current economic problems hit us. Handing over taxpayer money to failing companies won't solve anything unless they are prepared to do some things significantly differently.

    I earn less than $14 per hour and don't have company provided pension and health benefits. I don't want my tax dollars going to subsidise people that earn far more than I ever will.

    If this in fact happens I will do what I can to punish my MP.

    _________________________________

    You pay almost no taxes.

    Maybe you should look for other work.

    Most grocery store clerks have a drug plan and other coverages.
  716. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes:

    Are you seriously suggesting that Alberta is the ONLY province getting infrastructure project money from Ottawa? What do you base this on?

    The only guy I ever met who did home-schooling for his kids lives in Kitchener. I think he gave that up a few years ago, though. I'm not particularly religious, and I don't actually know anybody who is. Keep working on the insults for Albertans though - I'm sure it'll spur the spirit of generosity for everyone outside of ON to pitch-in and help you guys out, in your time of need.

    How BIG is Ontario's 'rainy day fund'? Is it enough to bail-out the D3? Probbably not...

    And, you DO realize that story you refer to is about tax deductions for new construction, not existing plants, right? I'll bet if any one of the Detroit 3 wanted the same kind of tax structure to build a new plant in Chatham, they'd have no trouble getting equal treatment. Oh, wait ...
  717. Save our Planet from Toronto, Canada writes: Oilsands workers with no High School Diploma's make more than $70/hour so no calling the kettle black Albertans! The federal government has been subsidizing your industry for years be allowing speculators to control the price of oil - Canada would have gas at $0.03/l like venezuela otherwise (another oil EXPORTER like Canada)
  718. T M from Canada writes:

    Will be back tonight with more input.
  719. We are all Broken from Van, Canada writes: 'ali mansur from etobicoke, Canada writes: A Westerner from Small Town Sask, Canada writes: The Coalition is forcing the PM to make this funding bailout.

    ------

    He's taking credit for the bailout. He's standing by the bailout. It's his bailout. He is giving OUR money away to unions. Please remember that next time you tout the awesome conservative prowess of Harper. '

    =============
    Are you serious? We all know that if Harper had a majority he at least would have demanded significant concessions from the Unions. Harper isnt the unions bi*ch. Layton, and to a lesser extent Iggy, is. Unions have no power in Harpers home province of Alberta. They believe in merrit, not seniority.
  720. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: K D from Canada writes:
    'What people don't get here is that while the big 3 were having problems before, no one anticipated sales dripping off 30-45% in a matter of 2-3 months. NO ONE!'

    Ok lets say you are right!

    80% of our auto sales are to the USA. The forecast is that USA will lose 4 million jobs in 2009 and the unemployment rate is expected to reach 9-10%

    Auto sales will plummet much lower. Even Obama says he can only save 3 million jobs over next two years. I think this is very optimistic.

    What will the excuse be in March 2008?
    .
  721. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: 'Where is the infrastructure money going? I haven't looked...'

    ===========================================

    You rant about what's earmarked for AB, and you haven't even LOOKED at what the other provinces are getting? It's always fun to trade posts with folks who put absolutely no thought whatsoever into what they write.
  722. carol h from victoria, Canada writes: I still don't get this urge to blame everything on unions and the Coalition. Hasn't anyone read about the recession that is hitting everyone from coast to coast to coast and in fact around the world? And have you not heard and/or read that almost every leading industrialist in every country including Japan, is saying that there needs to be spending by every government to get through this mess? And do you not know that the 1929 recession turned into a decade long depression thanks to the central governments policies of doing nothing and choking off credit? Or would you all like to continue to spin this out as a problem of partisanship and ideology? If so then Harper has trained us all well since that is what he has turned every move he makes into.

    Where were you when he was doling out perks and promises to various subgroups during the campaign? Didn't hear anyone complaining then about that. Let's assume that the man is a leader and is capable of making decisions. He seems to have given us that impression so far since he is the only one allowed to make decisions in his government.
  723. We are all Broken from Van, Canada writes: 'Spending our money from Canada writes:
    Buy goods made in Canada, by Canadians.

    We all win. '

    -----------------

    I will respectfully reserve the right to buy a product that I can get something for in a few years, rather than a POS that I will have to give away.
  724. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta

    Why is this about Alberta vs Ontario?

    You are from Ontario and must realize that the whole country is interrelated economically.

    Tough times are coming in Alberta, BC, NS, Ontario and everywhere else.

    We must stick together.
  725. Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Centrist 1867 from Canada writes: 'Where is the infrastructure money going? I haven't looked...'

    ===========================================

    You rant about what's earmarked for AB, and you haven't even LOOKED at what the other provinces are getting? It's always fun to trade posts with folks who put absolutely no thought whatsoever into what they write.
    ===============================
    Rant?? My post was about $1 billion primping an overheated economy that is the least needy of all in Confederation??? Why would I need to see how much PEI is receiving to make my point valid? You should think and only then type.
  726. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Paul Dieter from Canada writes:

    That money will be poured into mostly private firms - many foreign owned to help stimulate the Alberta economy, an economy with an sustainably low tax structure in the absence of $100/barrel oil, which is in itself a massive subsidy to the private sector. I'm not slagging Alberta, but it is the Alberta CONs who are leading the fight to deindustrialize Ontario and destroy Canada's industrialized heartland, but now they embrace the Keynesian economics that they once belittled, or at least Harper does - in a complete reversal and repudiation of everything he ever espoused or campaigned on. Harper is a complete fraud.

    ======================================

    So, let me get this straight - Harper masterminded the fall of the US dollar against ours, resulting in numerous plant closures in ON. Simultaneously, he coerced all of the other oil producing countries on earth to artificially drive up the price of oil, resulting in numerous plant closures in ON. As HIS MASTER STROKE, he then triggered the sub-prime mortgage melt-down in the US, resulting the credit crunch that will be the killing-blow to the Detroit 3.

    Wow - our little Stevie is one powerful dude. Machiavelli would stand in awe of this pudgy Calgarian transplanted from Ontario. ;)
  727. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: We are all Broken from Van, Canada writes: 'Spending our money from Canada writes:
    Buy goods made in Canada, by Canadians.

    We all win. '

    -----------------

    I will respectfully reserve the right to buy a product that I can get something for in a few years, rather than a POS that I will have to give away.

    _____________________

    In Korea it is considered unpatriotic to buy a foreign car.

    Same in Japan and Australia.

    Only here in North America is it OK to send your money to support regimes that undermine us every day.

    What you get in a few years is more foreign domination of our economy and less opportunity for your self and your children.

    Greed, as we should have learned from the current economic mess, is not good, and hurts everyone including the greedy.
  728. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: I leased Hondas from 1993 to 2008, when I switched to Toyota because of the Moronic Digital Speedometer which Honda stuck on the Civic. They were mostly 4 year leases. In that time, I might have had an hour down time with all the cars combined, in for maybe a window switch or something. In other words, they were reliable virtually to perfection. Granted, they were 4 year leases, but it was not easy driving. How many GM/Chrylser products could do 4 year stints, car after car, with that kind of record? The CAW Unionistas and the Lear Jet Beggars should meet behind closed doors, and discuss whether or not they think they can do as well. If not, I can think of better uses for our Billions.
  729. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: ''''Only here in North America is it OK to send your money to support regimes that undermine us every day.''' the Unionistas and Lear Jet Beggers undermined my standard of living and life, every time they put out a piece of junk. Junk Lots Of Advertising $29,999.99 Sex Appeal = Junk.
  730. Eric Williams from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's amazing how so many high priced CEO's are going down in flames. In the US financial sector, the US auto sector and other industries. What kind of system rewards people with ungodly amounts of money to destroy the system (i.e. the global economy and the environment)? It is the neo-conservative ideology which emanates from the US.

    A plea for a common sense will bring out the the wrath of the right wing rabble. They will accuse anyone who questions the validity of neo-conservative ideology of being a socialist, while at the same time they are crying for aid from the government after they have destroyed the economy. Pathetic, hypocritical, infantile, self-centered ... Tell them to GoFT's.

    Merry Christmas.
  731. We are all Broken from Van, Canada writes: 'Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: We are all Broken from Van, Canada writes: 'Spending our money from Canada writes:
    Buy goods made in Canada, by Canadians.

    We all win. '

    -----------------

    I will respectfully reserve the right to buy a product that I can get something for in a few years, rather than a POS that I will have to give away.

    _____________________

    In Korea it is considered unpatriotic to buy a foreign car.

    Same in Japan and Australia.

    Only here in North America is it OK to send your money to support regimes that undermine us every day.'

    ======================
    Maybe you and the 'Big' 3 should move to Korea. No self respecting person or industry wants you anyone to buy there product or employ them out of a sense of duty. Its called self respect. Its also called a meritocracy. Of the three you mentioned Japan is a powerful nation that has been mired in recession for over a decade due to the same attitude that you mention. Do you want us to be in recession for 10 years? And guess what, im Japanese!
  732. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    David Gibson from Hamilton, let the facts influence your rants.

    Do some research on Quality before you speak.
  733. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    This picture speaks volumes:

    http://buffalobeast.com/133/BIG3.ad.from.BEAST133.pdf
  734. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta

    Why is this about Alberta vs Ontario?

    You are from Ontario and must realize that the whole country is interrelated economically.

    Tough times are coming in Alberta, BC, NS, Ontario and everywhere else.

    We must stick together.

    =========================================

    Indeed we must, however, a number of posters seem to delight in referencing ANY story about anything that the federal gov't may be doing in AB, and distorting it. It's as if any nickel spent here is 5 cents that won't be available for the Detroit 3 rescue fund. Albertans have been referred to in pretty unflattering terms by several people from the ROC - and ON in particular - in the posts above.

    And, I'll piggy-back a response to your post to me above, in which you suggest that MY job will also disappear if the market doesn't come back. I was initially referring to the market for new cars made by the D3. I believe the auto manufacturing biz will come back in some form, but it will not include the D3. The same thing happen in the UK with British Leyland - they finally sank after massive gov't money injections, and Honda & Toyota simply upped production to fill the market need. The same will happen here.
  735. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes: We are all Broken
  736. We are all Broken from Van, Canada writes: 'True North from Canada writes: Harper before election: 'no bail-out'

    Harper after election: 'get your free money here' '

    ================

    Harper before the 'Coalition' tried to high jack the country 'No bailout.'

    Harper after the 'Coalition' tried to high jack the country 'If I have to do this to keep the commies from taking over then I guess its a bailout.'

    Wouldnt be an issue if they had got a majority. You borderlines that voted Liberal have only yourself to blame!
  737. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: ...a number of posters seem to delight in referencing ANY story about anything that the federal gov't may be doing in AB, and distorting it.

    ______________

    I believe that is an irrational reaction to the posts of a few Albertans, probably separatist or overly partisan types.

    Canada is worth defending.

    Regionalism is not.
  738. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Save our Planet from Toronto, Canada writes: Oilsands workers with no High School Diploma's make more than $70/hour so no calling the kettle black Albertans! The federal government has been subsidizing your industry for years be allowing speculators to control the price of oil - Canada would have gas at $0.03/l like venezuela otherwise (another oil EXPORTER like Canada)

    ===========================================

    Oilsands workers aren't looking for MASSIVE gov't bailout packages for their companies.

    Name ONE oilsands worker without a HS diploma that makes $70 an hour.

    How could be ever have 3 cent/litre gasoline? The taxes here alone are far more than that.

    Are you a friend of 'Vote NDP In The Next Election's? If not, you guys should get together for coffee - you have a LOT in common.
  739. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes: We are all Broken writes: 'Maybe you and the 'Big' 3 should move to Korea. No self respecting person or industry wants you anyone to buy there product or employ them out of a sense of duty. Its called self respect. Its also called a meritocracy.'

    --------------------------------

    Playing a little 'devil's advocate' here: strategically placed, clearly mandated, and scope-limited 'affirmative action' does not conflict with long term flourishing of meritocracy. It may very well enhance it in an 'anti-trust', competition-preserving fashion.

    The big-three want a little economic 'affirmative action', at least until the Volt comes out and then we will see ...
  740. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: Alberta has expanded oil production by 26.6% since 2001 adding 367,000 bbls/day of total production. During this period, conventional light oil and heavy crude declined by about 27%, shedding 196,000 bbls/day of total production. Oil sands production increased dramatically by 82.4% to 1.2 million bbls/day. In 2007 Saskatchewan produced 426,000 bbls/day of conventional oil or about 42% of western Canadian conventional production. Saskatchewan produces almost 50% more conventional heavy oils than Alberta. Alberta produces approximately 52% of the total conventional western Canadian supply of 1.017 million bbls/day. Combined Alberta and Saskatchewan account for 78% of Canada’s 2.753 million bbls/day 2007 production levels. Over this period total Canadian oil production increased by 24% adding 533,000 bbls/day of production. What is surprising about these figures is that Eastern Canada accounted for 41% of the increased capacity adding 220 bbls/day of production.

    See: Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, “Crude Oil Forecast, Markets & Pipeline Expansions”, June 2008, http://www.capp.ca/raw.asp?x=1&dt;=NTV&e;=PDF&dn;=138295
  741. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Don't forget that Ford did not ask or receive a loan. They have a plan.

    Ford's promised new products at a glance
    July 25, 2008 02:59 PM CDT

    Associated Press
    Ford Motor Co. announced a slew of new products that will come to North America by 2010, including six vehicles from Europe, as the company responds to rising gas prices and consumer demands for more fuel-efficient options. Here's what's on the way:

    2009:
    2009 F-150 pickup, which Ford says gets 7 percent better fuel economy than the current model

    2009 Ford Mustang

    2010 Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan and Lincoln MKZ midsize sedans

    2010 Ford Fusion hybrid and Mercury Milan hybrid, which will be the third and fourth hybrid models in Ford's lineup

    2010 Ford Taurus with fuel-saving EcoBoost engine

    New Lincoln seven-passenger crossover with EcoBoost engine

    Transit Connect multipurpose van from Europe

    2010:
    New Ford Fiesta subcompact from Europe

    New Ford Focus small car from Europe, in four- and five-door versions

    New Mercury small car

    New small vehicle in a segment that would be new to the North American market (possibly the C-Max multipurpose vehicle from Europe, a minivan-like vehicle built on a Focus platform)

    New Ford Explorer, which will be built on a car frame instead of a truck frame and will get 25 percent better fuel economy than the old Explorer.

    Beyond:
    Ford said it would bring two more European cars to the North American market by the end of 2012, although it didn't name those vehicles. Additional models Ford could be considering are the Mondeo midsize car and the Kuga crossover.
  742. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: According to the Alberta Provincial Energy Strategy document the energy sector is the single largest contributor to the provincial GDP and accounts for two-thirds of provincial exports. Examining industry Canada data over the last 10 year period from 1998 to 2007 and comparing exports to Alberta’s ten largest trading nations and reviewing the top 25 export products it can be seen that energy exports have jumped from $14.6 billion to $52.9 billion – a 261% increase. In 2007 the Industry Canada data showed that made up 67.6% of total exports. Total exports from Alberta increased 172% to $78.3 billion from $28.7 billion. Exports for all other products over the same 10 year period grew from $14 billion to $25.3 billion or an 80% increase. In realative terms however non-energy exports declined as a total percentage of all exports. In 1998 all other products made up just fewer than 50% of Alberta exports. In the year 2007 this percentage had dropped to 32.4%. Over the same period the share of energy (oil and natural gas, excluding electricity) as a total of all Canadian exports has risen from 6% in 1998 to 20% in 2007. The volume has increased to almost $83 billion. Auto manufacturing has declined as a total percentage of total Canadian exports from 19.3% to just 0ver 13% in 2007. The total value of auto exports in dollars in 2007 was $55.5 billion. Energy is now the single largest share of Canadian exports. It eclipsed auto in 2005. See: http://www.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrkti/tdst/tdo/tdo.php#tag
  743. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    I was just musing about a 'reverse NEP' a few weeks ago and it apparently has already been discussed on the blogsphere:

    http://calgarygrit.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-are-alberta-pcs-to-do.html
    http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/English/economy/1961NationalOilPolicy.html

    As soon as oil price hits the oilsands production cost floor, this would be a golden idea, IMHO. Set a Canada-wide petroleum purchasing price at $60 a barrel for 5 years and then re-negotiate.

    Such a scheme to protect Prairie wheat farmers and Quebec dairy farmers against catastrophic price fluctuations have been in place for decades, as I understand ...

    But this has to be an open-ended thing with scheduled re-negotionations to avoid the pit-falls of wheat board and dairy quotas.
  744. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada

    How does this work at $35 to $40 US per bbl.?
  745. Andrei Popov from NYC, United States writes: This 4 B gift to Ontario will end up down the drain. GM and Chrysler will not survive passed 2010.
  746. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: I agree with Honesty...Canada is worth defending. Alberta could supply Ontario/Quebec with cheap energy, Eastern Canada could supply Alberta/Saskatchewan with cheap industrial products like heavy haul trucks, cranes, pumps, motors, electrical gear, steels. This is what the US is fearful of, a Canada that could out produce, out compete US manufacturers. Instead policies of resouces sell-out by a complict Harper adminstration is providing raw energy to US refiners where they are now building upgraders at the same time as laying off thousands of Alberta workers...build the upgraders in Alberta, buold refineries in Ontario, Quebec and Eastern Canada and sell the product to the US...
  747. David Gagnon from Québec, Canada writes: It is unfair that people in Quebec have to pay for it. In Quebec, we do not even drive Ford, GM and Chrysler anymore. We drive mainly Toyota, Mazda, Volkswagen and Honda.

    It is going to callapse anyway...

    Alberta oil is to expensive to produce.

    Canada is finished too.

    Now, Quebc has the mean to separate LOL
  748. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    ' It is unfair that people in Quebec have to pay for it. In Quebec, we do not even drive Ford, GM and Chrysler anymore. We drive mainly Toyota, Mazda, Volkswagen and Honda.

    It is going to callapse anyway...

    Alberta oil is to expensive to produce.

    Canada is finished too.

    Now, Quebc has the mean to separate LOL '

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Will Toyota re-locate their factories to an independent_ Quebec? Hardly likely. Ditto for VW.

    And who's going to buy your dairy products at 3 times the European market price? Better ask Sarkozy. Oh wait, he is more interested in a 'Mediterranean co-prosperity zone' with North Africa ...
  749. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Don't forget that Ford did not ask or receive a loan. They have a plan.

    =========================================

    I think Ford was just 'lucky', and hit the financial wall a couple of years ago. They lined-up credit while it was still available.
  750. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: David Gagnon from Québec, Canada writes: It is unfair that people in Quebec have to pay for it. In Quebec, we do not even drive Ford, GM and Chrysler anymore. We drive mainly Toyota, Mazda, Volkswagen and Honda.

    It is going to callapse anyway...

    Alberta oil is to expensive to produce.

    Canada is finished too.

    Now, Quebc has the mean to separate LOL

    =======================================

    Why is it that whenever somebody posts something really stupid, they put 'LOL' at the end of it? Put it at the beginning, and I'll just avoid reading it.
  751. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: Honesty: Of course world prices affect what Canada can realize from other nations. But to develop Canadian industrial capacity and set price levels for Canadians first will expand prodcution capacity and contribute to expansion of Canadian manufacturing capacity. The Ottawa based Centre for the Study of Living Standards (CSLS) an economic policy research group released a research report on November 10, 2008 “The Valuation of the Alberta Oil Sands”. The CSLS report concludes that the Alberta Oil Sands make up 18% of Canada’s total tangible wealth. There has been very little commentary on the report to date. This suggests that Canada price is not so much a factor as developing real assests. Once those are developed we will sell/trade with other nations. Of course this cannot be done as long as the total capacity rests in the hands of the oil monopolies. Danny Williams has it right. Develop or get out of Canada. This should be said to PetroCan that has cancelled the Fort Hills project. To Gagnon: No it is not fair for Quebec...but I can assure you that ordinary workers in Alberta don't by the Reform chaivanism of the Flanagan/Manning brain trust...Canada can develop East/West. But this is what strikes fear in the hearts of the paracitical financial geniuses of Bay st. The US is looking to Canada to get it out of its crises and perpetuate its wars...Canadian workers are not buying the line. So they are destroying Canada's ability to produce and turn us into resource extractors. This will be done at the peril of all Canadians.
  752. Ocean Xpress from NCC Land, Canada writes:
    And in all likelihood, David Gagnon, Bombardier is straggling along not too far behind the Big Three ...
  753. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Don't forget that Ford did not ask or receive a loan. They have a plan.

    =========================================

    I think Ford was just 'lucky', and hit the financial wall a couple of years ago. They lined-up credit while it was still available.
    ___________________________________________

    True.
  754. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: .....the neocon fundamentalist rabble really have no problems with the current happenings....after all the prediction in good book is being fulfilled, the wise are living off the fools.....
  755. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ....as a user of public transit....this one doubly sucks.....
  756. BEN DOVER from WESTERN CANADA, Canada writes: After I do my income tax this year and square up for the difference, will I make my cheque out to REVENUE CANADA or the C.A.W? I hope there is enough left over from my C.P.P. for food that month.
  757. S G from Toronto, Canada writes: Hahahaha.

    David Gagnon....PLEASE SEPARATE!! Then we can stop writing you freeloaders an $8 billion per year equalization cheque. Yes that twice this auto package EVERY YEAR!.

    Quebec would quickly turn into a poor backwater without the rest of canada propping it up.
  758. Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Alberta Energy Worker, you need to know that your exports are based on demand. Demand for oil is headed south too. With the shift to green energy, Alberta better find another source of revenue or you may be headed back to Ontario. NO BAILOUTS FOR ALBERTA OIL
  759. Dwille Pruximus from Flamborough, Canada writes: What a bunch of losers. That money should be spent on cancer research.
  760. diane marie from Canada writes: The D3 would still be producing Pintos and K-Cars had they not faced foreign competition.
  761. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ....Canada hasn't been this divided in a while.....our cup of misery runeth over.....nice goin' Stevie.....
  762. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: Nick from Toronto: Are you suggesting that Canada should send all our capacity south instead of using for the expansion of Ontario manufacturing. I am not saying bailing out Alberta big oil. I fully understand what demand is...but to suggest that Canada meets that demand with raw exports sells Ontario out along with all Canadian workers. I am suggesting developing Alberta oil to meet Canadian needs first and in the process expand Ontario manufacturing. Oil is a Canadian resource not an Alberta resource. Don't buy into the clap trap of big business. Canadian energy for Canadian needs first!
  763. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Alberta Energy Worker, you need to know that your exports are based on demand. Demand for oil is headed south too. With the shift to green energy, Alberta better find another source of revenue or you may be headed back to Ontario. NO BAILOUTS FOR ALBERTA OIL

    ==========================================

    Try to focus - the story is about bailing-out the D3.

    Think 'happy thoughts' about the oil sands - they're just about the only industrial game left.
  764. NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: Frankly, I think we are ALL focusing on the wrong issues here......if we are truly worrying about the future debt we are passing on to our children and their children.....then why are we not discussing the 1 Trillion dollars the US government and the 75 Billion the Canadian governments threw to our banks to buy up all the 'toxic' mortages that Bush & Harper governments allowed into the financial system. It was all based on the housing bubble market which has now burst. What about all that money ? Really, this the true crime our Government has committed !! Thanks to harper's love for the Bush style ideologies, it was the harper government that allowed the toxic mortage poison to come to Canada two years ago. I just dont understand why people across the US and Canada aren't more upset and debating that criminal act ? It is for that reason (a pure financial bailout free money no re-payment, not just a loan) that the car companies are collapsing .....and in return to the middle class and working class of Canada all the government is willing to do is give a small loan to one of the largest employers in Canada ? Car company collapse is just the start, this is going to be a domino effect here folks and we haven't tipped over the second one yet !! Hold on tight. Let's hold our government accountable to us for their actions.......Oh, wait, we can't because our fearless leader has closed Parliament in this our dire need and is hiding under the GG's skirt, popping out from time to time to spiel his propanganda campaign to the media !! We as Canadians need to work together & demand leadership and accountability now from our Government and if they can't provide that, then we need to find a leader who is willing to stand up and lead. I never thought I would say this being a Canadian, but Barrack Obama is the only hope for the world at this point. The rest of the world governments will be followers and imitators of his true leadership.
  765. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: So, let me get this straight - Harper masterminded the fall of the US dollar against ours, resulting in numerous plant closures in ON. Simultaneously, he coerced all of the other oil producing countries on earth to artificially drive up the price of oil, resulting in numerous plant closures in ON. As HIS MASTER STROKE, he then triggered the sub-prime mortgage melt-down in the US, resulting the credit crunch that will be the killing-blow to the Detroit 3. Wow - our little Stevie is one powerful dude. Machiavelli would stand in awe of this pudgy Calgarian transplanted from Ontario. ;) -------------- Harper allowed the Cdn dollar to rise knowing that this would enable Alberta based oil companies, for example, to buy foreign made equipment and Cdns in general, to buy foreign made cars, for example cheaply, while placing Cdn manufacturing at a disadvantage. It also made hiring foreign workers cheaper, since their contracts are typically in USA dollars. However, this is a pitfall of a petro economy, since it drives up the price of the Cdn dollar whilst simultaneously driving down the competitiveness of Cdn industry and agriculture, and since oil extraction is a very capital intensive process, it directly generates relatively few jobs, hence the necessity for Alberta to subsidize the rest of its economy with an artificially low tax structure, that cannot be maintained without $100/barrel oil. So Alberta's economy is dependent on high oil prices, while Canada's economy is dependent on a lower Cdn dollar, since it exports finished products that must compete on their own merits rather than as a raw resource, such as crude (note the name) oil.
  766. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada...a noble sentiment indeed....Canadian energy for Canadian needs......who could disagree?....guess who?....NAFTA does!....and we agreed!...remember?....
  767. Doug Lippay from Sunderland, Canada writes: The CAW/ UAW has had almost a 70 year history of conflict with all of their major employers. It has resulted in the demise of three 100 year old companies to the point of insolvency. The Asian and most of the European car makers have a different, more cooperative rapport with their employees.

    It would seem that both are watching the pie get smaller with each year, both sides might wish to try something new? or else all will disappear.
  768. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    diane marie from Canada writes: The D3 would still be producing Pintos and K-Cars had they not faced foreign competition.
    ___________________________________________________

    Diane marie please don't get hung up on the 70s like other posters here. Times change, products change. Do you remember the garbage products from Japan of the same vintage, or the VWs with no heat or the tires that lasted one year? Perhaps you remember aluminum wiring from the 70s as well. Honda civics were a joke when they were introduced here.

    The Auto industry today in Canada is high tech, the plants are ultramodern and heavily automated both union and non-union.

    GM has invested $6 billion in Canada alone over the last few years.
    Ford invested $1 billion in just one plant, plus lots more elsewhere.
    Toyota has expanded one plant and built another.
    Honda has doubled in size in Canada.

    VW, BMW, Hyundai, Mitsubishi etc on the other hand contirbute nothing to Canada in the way of investment.

    Support the folks that support you.
  769. G L from TORONTO, Canada writes: If we let the auto companies go bankrupt, it removes their pension liabilities. At the same time let the health care system go private so there is no burden on the province. I am ready for it because I have saved, bought insurances and kept personal health my number one priority. I walk around homeless people here in the city, I expect they would do the same if things were reversed.
    If we remove the laws preventing replacement workers for striking workers, that will quickly bring the value of the labour down to the true market value. At the same time, remove the tariffs on import cars, let buyers get a good deal on their vehicle at globally competitive rates. That will keep management at a true market reimbursement rate.
    Less jobs, less people (or do unemployed people raise larger families?), great for carbon emission reductions and global warming is solved.
  770. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: G L from TORONTO, Canada writes: If we let the auto companies go bankrupt, it removes their pension liabilities. At the same time let the health care system go private so there is no burden on the province. I am ready for it because I have saved, bought insurances and kept personal health my number one priority. I walk around homeless people here in the city, I expect they would do the same if things were reversed.
    If we remove the laws preventing replacement workers for striking workers, that will quickly bring the value of the labour down to the true market value. At the same time, remove the tariffs on import cars, let buyers get a good deal on their vehicle at globally competitive rates. That will keep management at a true market reimbursement rate.
    Less jobs, less people (or do unemployed people raise larger families?), great for carbon emission reductions and global warming is solved.

    _________________---

    Let them all die

    I got mine
  771. p m from Canada writes: now that the supplicants have got their money at the end of act 1, what's going to happen at the end of act 2?
  772. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes: NeoCon Lies - Harper Dysfunctional from Chatham, Canada writes: 'Yes I did read the article.......and basically the near 1 Billion dollars for Alberta is a giveaway FREE MONEY !! The Detroit 3 is a LOAN that must be repaid'

    Ok this is just silliness in the extreme. The $800M being spent on infrastructure projects in Alberta is part of a $33 BILLION nation-wide program called 'Building Canada'. Ontario has already signed up for $7.7B of that money. Quebec for $4.9B, and Alberta for $2.2B. The $800M infrastructure program announced recently is one part of this and is similar to the $3.0B infrastructure program already announced for Ontario.

    The idea of these programs is to fund new roads, railroads and public transit. It is government money being spent on government programs.

    Ohh, and don't hold your breath on the 'loan' to the Detroit 3 ever being repaid. There's a reason why banks won't lend them money; they don't expect Chrysler or GM to ever be able to pay their loans back and nor should we.
  773. diane marie from Canada writes: Honesty:-- Actually, I've owned six Toyotas but recently made the switch to Honda. My last Toyota began rusting before I'd owned it a year. By year nine, the back hatch was completely rusted out. I still managed to get $5,000 for it. However, in all that time it remained mechanically sound, requiring only a new set of tires, and one auto door lock repair, and never failing to start even in the -20s. It just looked ugly at the end. Most of us will ;-). A friend owns a D3 minivan, much newer, and it's a 'hanger queen' - constantly in need of repair - another friend owns a Ford Escape - same thing. My Honda is now just over three years old and has not needed any kind of repair.
  774. Paul Dieter from Canada writes: Nick Be from Toronto, Canada writes: Alberta Energy Worker, you need to know that your exports are based on demand. Demand for oil is headed south too. With the shift to green energy, Alberta better find another source of revenue or you may be headed back to Ontario. NO BAILOUTS FOR ALBERTA OIL

    ---------

    While I don't think big oil should be given a bailout, i do think that Alberta oil workers should be given assistance in the event of redundancies and that a Federal-Alberta program should assist Alberta to redirect NG from being wasted cracking the tar sands towards direct sale in the NA energy market and as a vehicle fuel. This would provide Alberta with a stable revenue stream from this relatively clean energy source, to offset the loss of tar sands economic activity.
  775. Alberta Energy Sector Worker AB from Canada writes: Zando Lee: It has nothing to do with 'noble sentiments' it has to do with dispensing with big business nonsense of discussing the issues in the context of saving this or that monopoly interest at the expense of Canadian jobs and families. It requires fighting to get out of NAFTA and challenging big power. Canada has all the resources and industrial capacity to advance the nation forward. Are we so naïve to think that any of these big monopolies care about working people? It is a fight. We don’t go cap in hand and ask for some scraps from the table of finance money. We have demands and fight for them. One of those demands must be that the energy resources of Canada are developed in the interests of all Canadians first. That means East/West development. Of course it means bitter struggle. It can be no other way. Power will not willing give it to Canadians, they must be compelled to.
  776. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: diane marie from Canada writes: Honesty:-- Actually, I've owned six Toyotas but recently made the switch to Honda. My last Toyota began rusting before I'd owned it a year. By year nine, the back hatch was completely rusted out. I still managed to get $5,000 for it. However, in all that time it remained mechanically sound, requiring only a new set of tires, and one auto door lock repair, and never failing to start even in the -20s. It just looked ugly at the end. Most of us will ;-). A friend owns a D3 minivan, much newer, and it's a 'hanger queen' - constantly in need of repair - another friend owns a Ford Escape - same thing. My Honda is now just over three years old and has not needed any kind of repair.
    ______________________________
    I've had the same kind of experience with Fords.
    With the salt on the roads I get them oiled yearly and never have a rust problem. My 2008 Lincoln MKX (made in Oakville Ont. is a great vehicle. The body panels come from Buffalo NY and Milton Ont. The Seats are made in Canada. The engine and transmission are made in Ohio.

    My point about imports excluded Toyota and Honda which have made a big investment here and employ thousands. However it would help Canada and Canadian workers in these plants and parts plants that supply them if people bought the models made in North America rather than in Japan.

    the imports like VW, Kia, Hyundai etc. have made no commitment to Canada and do not buy any parts here or employ any manufacturing employees.

    An auto industry is important to a country's success, that is why governments world wide vie for plants to be located in thier jurisdictions

    Support the people that support you.
  777. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: I watched Buss Hargrove on TV this A.M. he is in noway repentant as being part of the problem in the demise of GM and Chrysler.

    His only concern was that the NDP & Liberals should have