F/A-18 crashes into San Diego neighborhood
Photo credit: Sandy Huffaker / Getty Images
*Updated at 3:30 p.m.
Officials said two people were killed when an F/A-18 military jet about to land at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar slammed into a San Diego neighborhood today. The pilot was able to eject safely.
Two in the house are dead and two are missing.
Neighbors said they heard sputtering, saw the jet wobbling, and then it crashed, creating a ball of fire. Afterward, neighbors said they saw the pilot wandering around in a daze. He had parachuted out of the jet and landed in the baseball field of nearby University City High School.
John Kreischer, 62, was returning home from taking pictures at La Jolla Cove when he spotted the plane only 300 to 500 feet in the sky.
“It was mushing through the air,” Kreischer said. “It was chugging along with what seemed like one engine. Then I heard a roar of engine and all of a sudden, woop, dead silence.
"This guy could have turned it around and put it in the ocean," he continued. "He was never going to make it to Miramar.”
“My heart goes out to the family of the victims and to the community of University City,” said Mayor Jerry Sanders.
Marine officials told The Times the pilot was part of a training squadron and that he was trying to aim the plane at a deserted canyon to avoid slamming into homes or the nearby 805 Freeway. He had taken off from the carrier Abraham Lincoln several miles off the coast. His destination was the air station. Marine Col. Chris O’Connor pledges an in-depth investigation and to see “that the neighborhood is cleaned up as quickly as possible.”
Jason Widmer, who was working in the neighborhood, talked to the pilot after he ejected and landed.
"He was pretty shook up," Widmer said. "And pretty concerned if he had killed anyone. He had seen his bird go into a house.”
Students at University City High were eating lunch when they saw the F/A-18. "It was coming in too low,” said student Mike Scott.
“It was like the plane hit a wall: it went straight down."
Vanessa James, a neighbor, was taking out her trash when she heard a high-pitch boom.
"I heard the boom, came out, and saw a parachute coming out over a house into a canyon,” she said. Police and fire officials said one home was destroyed and another damaged in the crash that occurred just before noon.
Paulette Glauser, a neighbor, said she saw the homes and cars on fire and people running away from the flames.
“One girl was hysterical," Glauser said. "I got her a blanket and water. The explosion was so loud and so horrifying.” Paramedics got there within minutes to rescue the pilot, who had landed in a tree just beyond Glauser’s home.
"Can you imagine what’s going through his head when he’s ejecting and he sees his plane going down into a neighborhood?” she said.
San Diego Police Chief William Landsdowne said engine failure forced the pilot to eject from the two-seater jet. Only the one pilot was aboard.
Monica Munoz of the San Diego Police Department told The Times that a bomb unit was checking the crash zone to deal with any jet fuel that has not burned.
Smoke billowed from homes in the University City section of San Diego, about two miles from the air station.
Three homes were lost.
-- Tony Perry and Richard Marosi
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This pilot could have diverted to a remote airfield or ditched overwater. Instead, he gambled with peoples lives and lost. I think he should be court-martialed for murder and his commanders fired.
Posted by: Joe | December 19, 2008 at 07:14 AM
Annie -
The Post doent know much about aircraft accidents and incidents.
McCain's "crash" in Corpus Christi was caused by engine power loss in a single-engine prop aircraft at an altitude too low to bail out (no ejection seat in those aircraft). - mechanical failure.
The first ejection was caused by a flameout in a single-engine jet trainer - mechanical failure.
One was caused by a rocket from ANOTHER airplane hitting McCain's plane on the Flight Deck of USS Forrestal (CVA-59) - personnel failure to follow ordnance handling procedures on the other airplane.
The Vietnam shoot down is obvious.
True, the "flat hatting incident" was his fault. Flying too low on a low level traing mission is a total "no-no" in any military aviation organization.
Only one was his total fault, the rest were the result of circumstances totally beyond control.
Being involved in an aviation mishap does not necessarily mean you were the CAUSE of the mishap.
Posted by: Retired Naval Aviator | December 12, 2008 at 06:35 AM
Susan Price's comment accusing the military of having too much power and demanding that Miramar be turned over to civilian aviation apalls me almost as much as this tragedy.
As many have already said, the airbase was there first, not the residential neighborhood. This is a fact very easily researched. And as has also been pointed out, commercial airports would be no more safer for those living directly under the flight paths.
Don't you think the people who have too much power in this case would be the home industry and municipalities deciding to zone and build so dangerously close to an existing airbase, and NOT the military?
When Altus AFB renovated its airstrips to accomodate the then-new C-17 Globemasters, the Air Force offered to buy the homes of people who lived directly under the base's flight path, so that they would have the money to relocate elsewhere. These homes were then demolished.
Frankly, I feel the military--the Navy, Marines, and Air Force--needs to repeat this for all of its air bases. We are clearly seeing the danger that uncontrolled suburban sprawl poses. It is not right when families are put at risk due to urban planning that doesn't take the dangers posed by aviation accidents into account.
That being said, my prayers and thoughts go out to Mr. Yoon and the pilot involved in the crash. I can't imagine how the both of them feel, especially Mr. Yoon, having lost his entire family to this crash.
Posted by: Theodore Harrington | December 11, 2008 at 03:14 PM
I went to San Diego to see family soon after I returned from a deployment to Iraq. It made me mad to come home and see all these rich people in La Jolla surfing and having a good ole time while people were dying overseas for them. Basically enjoying their freedoms without any sacrifice whatsover. It also made me mad to see how all theses developments with outrageous price tags have encroached on the mililtary bases north of S.D. In a way, it's kind of symbolic of our country. So few sacrificing for so many is wrong. I wonder how many people who live in University City are serving, or have served their country?
Posted by: coloradovet | December 11, 2008 at 01:01 PM
Mr. Yoon's grace and prayerful request is truly amazing. You sir are a "treasured American" and I will honor you, your family, and the pilot in prayer. May God be with you through all of this and may you and the pilot find peace.
Posted by: Trish | December 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM
God bless the wife, mother-in-law and the two kids.
Posted by: sam | December 10, 2008 at 07:53 PM
It always amazes me how many totally ill-informed people make comments trashing the pilot in incidents such as this.
You weren't there.....you don't know what happened....most of you don't know the sharp end from the blunt end of an aircraft, much less how to deal with an inflight emergency !
By all means make your condolences to those who lost their lives...just don't talk about things you know nothing about.
Posted by: Brian Whitelegg | December 10, 2008 at 03:02 PM
how can i contact mr. yoon, or his church to convey my condolences/send blessings? please help LA Times blog people, since you didn't post my previous comment.
gracias, mele
Posted by: mele | December 10, 2008 at 02:24 PM
omg... blessings and love to you mr. yoon. you are such an outstanding individual and it will be hard, but you will get thru this terrible tragedy.
i send you all my prayers and hope that you will endure and continue to be such an incredible example of heroism... so many other people would want to sue the military, or find blame... your christian community and the Lord Jesus has helped make you so strong.
i once many years ago was hit by a car, as my friend and i walked in a crosswalk. others wanted me to sue the driver for the maximum on his policy, but i didn't do it cuz it was the wrong thing to do... that instant of being hit brought me to be a believer in Jesus Christ... almost 10 years after the accident... and it changed my life forever... somehow i pray that something good will come to you out of this horrific thing that has happened to you and your family...
just to know that there are decent, so great people like you mr. yoon... gives so many of us hope of a better world. in your weakness you are strong.
love and aloha always to you from hawaii and new york where we are now, mele and husband
Posted by: m | December 10, 2008 at 02:20 PM
Anyone who doesn't want US jets flying in and around the airports across this great nation...remember, it COULD and WOULD be some one else's.
Just a thought. Prayers to the families and to the tramatic experience that young pilot experienced.
Posted by: DanInGTMO | December 09, 2008 at 12:20 PM
My grandparents moved to La Jolla, California in 1958. As a child, we would drive down from Riverside to visit them. There was nothing between Highway 395 and La Jolla except Miramar Naval Air Station. In the 1980s, growth in the area exploded. Everything about that area now sucks completely, with the exception of the beaches. I spent many years in La Jolla and neighboring towns, and watched the fighter planes roaring out over the ocean. It was actually pretty entertaining.
Statistically, it's remarkable that this is the first fatal crash into a residential neighborhood near the base (that I'm aware of.) If I had my way, none of the newer civilian development would exist, and La Jolla would be just like it was in 1965. (A pleasant fantasy.)
I feel equally bad for the pilot and the civilian victims. He had to make some quick decisions and, unfortunately, this time luck ran out. Wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
Posted by: Mac | December 09, 2008 at 09:40 AM
I lived in the University City area and I looked upon the Miramar jets as a neighbor. I liked having them close. I felt safer knowing they were there. I did NOT want a civilian airport to move in.
Why would anyone start blaming the pilot before they know why it all happened? Don't you think he feels bad enough already? He didn't kill that family. The plane did. Let's wait and see why it happened before saying stupid things about how he should have gone down with the plane. Five deaths would have been better than four? How do you get that?
Posted by: sdlady | December 09, 2008 at 08:26 AM
I'm a Canadian...love my american friends! Hearing about this crash is heartbreaking....so I've been reading some of the comments on here and had to say something.
Just seems that everyone jumps to trash the miliitary right away...thats not fair. These people commit their lives and put their lives on the line all the time...its not an easy job...not one that most of us would want to do. So I think judgement should be reserved for when the facts come out and there is a thorough investigation of the FACTS...not hearsay and conjecture.
the loss of the lives of the mother, gramdmother and two children hits hard with me as I am a mother...and I cant understand why so many people are blabbing away about STUPID THINGS like....its densely populated...aircraft should be allowed etc. etc. Well, how come you didnt every think of that before? Seems this just brings out the stupid in people.
I think there are some things that just happen....tragic accidents. Let's focus on finding out FACTS and I think the best path forward to prevention of accidents.
There is nothing that can bring these beautiful souls back to this life now....nothing...all the cussing, swearing and finger pointing in the world will not do it.... finding the facts with a clear head and stable emotions is the only option. Comforting the families and dealing with the loss another... it is so tragic...my mother heart is crying...but I cannot understand this need to vent anger at the military as just some need to vent frustration and some deep need to make sense of it all. These is no sense to tragedy ever.
Posted by: christine donovan | December 09, 2008 at 07:01 AM
i cant believe some of you people have the nerve to speak so negatively about this unfortunate pilot. you guys are saying that he should have died too because of a situation he had no control over. put yourself in his shoes, your plane is going down, you have absolutely no control over it, and its headed towards a residental neighborhood. you cant honestly say that you are going to go down in flames with it and die senselessly just because others are going to die.
this is a tragic incident and my thoughts and prayers go out to the family.
Posted by: alex | December 08, 2008 at 11:31 PM
So many idiots on this board, so little time. Lets just start with some real gems.
"We should do all our training flights over the ocean?"
Good thing we never fight wars over land. Beyond that this military aircraft crashed while attempting to land, not while doing anything remotely tactical. According to you, this risk is unacceptable and therefore we should never have military aircraft flying over land, or at least not near a city. By extension then you are proposing that no civilian aircraft fly near cities either, because they have been known to crash occasion. Commercial aircraft carry way more jet fuel than a fighter and consequently present a far greater danger if they crash in a populated areas. Don't believe me? Fine, go pull some file footage on Manhattan circa September 2001. I don't want to belabor the point, you are an idiot, moving on.
"The pilot is a coward and should have rode it into the ground like a real man."
Ah yes, because once his engine failed and he lost all systems (propulsion, hydraulics, electrical, etc) he still would have been able to control the jet... It's not like the control surfaces needed to maneuver the airplane rely on any of those systems... Like the rest of you, I don't know the details of this mishap, but suffice to say that any control he might have had would have been marginal. I am glad to see however, that despite the fact that there was quite likely nothing further the pilot could do, you all seem to think that it would be LESS tragic if the body count was higher? We hold ourselves to incredibly high standards and this pilot will face an incredibly harsh board that will determine if and to what extent he is at fault and he will be dealt with accordingly, but at least we don't want him dead. You aren't just idiots; you are vindictive, blood thirsty idiots.
"He should have just crashed it into the water."
This is actually the least moronic thing said, but only because in hindsight that looks like it would have been a better course of action. But, like I said, that is hindsight. How happy would the tax payers have been when the pilot decided not to try to bring back his MULTI MILLION DOLLAR jet that was still flying at the time it went feet dry? "Why did he intentionally crash his jet into the ocean, Miramar was just 5 miles away?" The point is that none of us know what indications if any the pilot had of the impending catastrophic failure so it is useless to second guess him. A board of professionals will sift through all the facts and do that for us. Until they do, shut the hell up and stay in your lane.
Alright, enough ranting for the evening.
Posted by: Cupcake | December 08, 2008 at 10:00 PM
i have been in the marine corps for five years now. it saddens me to see that although all of us in the military put our lives on the line for every single person in this country, you still hate the military and its efforts. everyone needs to stop and think of days like 9-11 and remember that our military is what gives you your freedoms. we need places to train, our country grows through the years and people move by bases. it is tragic that people died because a military jet crashed, but accidents happen and far more civilian aircraft kill people than do military.
Posted by: Travis | December 08, 2008 at 09:44 PM
"And I also want to respond to this comment, "Our men and women do not serve for money but because they have a heart bigger than you can ever imagine!!"
I would say this is true in most cases but not all cases. Yes, there are many in the military who do it to honor their country, but there are also those who do it simply because they have no other opportunities and therefore no other choice. I've had friends in the military comment that they would rather have gone to college than enlist, but they didn't have the money and financial aid was too scarce." - Paul
Who wouldn't rather go to college and earn a nice paycheck than enlist in the military which is exactly my point...these guys and gals are doing their job and doing it well in spite of the low pay and sometimes poor living conditions. But instead of taking a handout for being in a bad situation they are actually doing something about it. The military life is hard and not for everyone. Is it a perfect corporation? No...I never said that it was. It is not made up of Saints either...name one corporation that is. The military community is made up of regular people who have flaws just like everyone else and they are justifiably held accountable when deemed necessary.
Posted by: Trish | December 08, 2008 at 09:28 PM
"People that can, do....People that can't, join the military. Get a real job, one that pays well. Then you can move away from those scummy dorm-looking housing units, and maybe you will cheer up a bit. If these guys are so smart, why doesn't the country pay them what they are worth?...or maybe they already do. Hey, if he crashes a few more-he can run for president on the Republican ticket."
posted by some ridiculous moron named Mitch
_______________________________________________________________
Mitch, you are right. When I graduated top of my class in college, (that doesn't mean much: it was an engineering program, devoid of the rigors of your poli-sci major with a double minor in italian and media studies) I passed up jobs paying TWICE as much to join the military. It wasn't because I wanted to serve, felt honor bound to give back to a country that had done so well for my family, and had dreamed of flying something fast and mean from the time I first saw the Blue Angels perform. No, it was because I was not able to hack it in a "real" job. You sure had me pegged you sharp son of a gun. And all of my pilot buddies, they are real morons too. We couldn't possibly get a job anywhere else. You are right, hell you probably pay us too much...given that most men would pay thousands of dollars for a ride in a jet that I get paid to fly everyday.
But Mitch, even though I am dumb as a post and so incompetent that I couldn't cut it in the real world I do take solace in the fact that I have the job I dreamed about since I was six. I love everything about it, but mainly it's those sweet green pajamas with the flag on my shoulder that really gets me going. Retards like me sure do appreciate the simple things. Of course you know how it feels to live your dream Mitch. I mean, ever since you were a little kid you must have dreamed of being a money obsessed, cake eating, empty suit, moron stuck in an office accumulating a life time of stories no one will ever care to hear. "Remember the time I closed that big account in Chicago?" *yawn* Congrats on making it to the big time you smart devil you.
Oh yeah, there is that one other little thing that lets me take solace in how "lowly" a profession I have stumbled into. As you work away at your meaningless job, scratching away for promotions to middle management as your hair falls out you may find that in twenty years your boss will be some former Navy flier. You see, he spent a couple decades in the Navy only to realize that he could shoot straight in front of you in pretty much any field he chose. Sucks when he got hired for the position you hoped that one day you might get promoted to. You see, the same qualities that it takes to run a squadron or handle procurement contracts, interact with other government agencies, or operate in other nations tend to make you quite good in the business world. Also, the types of guys that can make life and death decisions one right after another in a multimillion dollar warplane traveling more than a mile every 10 seconds in close proximity to the ground tend to be very capable of handling easy decisions, like whether to fire a pathetic waste of manhood like yourself.
Posted by: Cupcake | December 08, 2008 at 09:23 PM
Ok, if you're like me you've checked this sucker a couple times to see the replies....so here goes.
Best post award goes to : Paul
"The people portraying the military as a bunch of saints are just as foolish as the people wantonly attacking the military. You may have risked your life defending this country, but that shouldn't excuse you from the consequences if you make a mistake that costs an innocent civilian's life."
Response : Very true Paul. The investigation of this incident will go to the highest levels...so let's say it comes back as a hardware malfunction in the aircraft, not due to pilot error. What now? Who faces those consequences? Incidents of this nature, especially where a loss of American life is involved, do not often warrant a quick and judicious response as I think you're eluding to. Americans (as a societal culture) want justice, rather demand it. Careful to not judge too quickly.
Worst post Award goes to : Susan
Response: Really, do I need to address this?
Editorial : People in the military (based on my 16 years of service) join for one of two reasons. The need of a job, or the desire to support a country who has given us so much. Regardless, we willingly accept lower pay, combat deployments, crappy housing and the adject rants of ignorant liberals (joke!). We do it because we take pride in putting on that uniform and knowing that maybe in some small way we helped make this country better. My first deployment to Iraq was ridiculous. I doubt I made this country a better place or improved the quality of life for anyone. I know for sure that I angered more Iraqis than pleased them. The second trip was just as bad. But then I went down to New Orleans in 2005. I helped pull people out of their flooded homes, I distributed food and water to the needy, and I helped sandbag buildings while it was still raining. I saw in their faces then, that they wanted my (our) help, and were appreciative of it. So, rant all you want on the military, bash it until you are blue in face. All I can say is, "You're welcome. I make sure you'll always have that right, because that's what makes this country great."
My prayers and condolences go out to the people killed today, and their families. No words can appease the pain of their loss. Nothing any blogger can say will ease this tragedy. They are missed, truly.
-Captain of Marines
Posted by: John | December 08, 2008 at 08:59 PM
Uh, wow. Some of these comments are simply off the charts. Are some of you people mentally ill?
Sacramento, especially, who notes that:
people should not live this close. The air force was there first.
Wow. So they deserve it, I guess. I think the point of the article was that the pilot could not get the plane to Miramar Air Base, which is at least 15 miles away. It was an accident. But certainly the ol' "they were asking for it" concept definitely does NOT apply. Yikes.
Posted by: Cal | December 08, 2008 at 08:52 PM
This is what we're talking about:
“It was mushing through the air,” Kreischer said. “It was chugging along with what seemed like one engine. Then I heard a roar of engine and all of a sudden, woop, dead silence. This guy could have turned it around and put it in the ocean," he continued. "He was never going to make it to Miramar.”
KNOW when to get your plane out of a populated area. This is an example of poor training.
Or is it another military pilot thinking of his own safety first rather than the civilians on the ground?
We'll see.
___________________
And then there's this nugget:
[ ".....I know you weren't complaining about the military when September 11th happened!....." Posted by: Stephanie -02:33 PM ]
No, we were complaining about your heroes Bush and Cheney ignoring CLEAR warnings and intel that an attack was coming using hijacked aircraft.
Duh.
Posted by: gts1014 | December 08, 2008 at 08:24 PM
A few thoughts after reading through all of your comments. First, this thread is much more mean spirited and emotional than it needs to be. Second, the logic in the stated arguments was often tainted by those same emotions. Third, some good information came out of it, nonetheless. In trying to be relatively unbiased about this, here is what I'm taking away from this.
* Replacing MIramar with a civilian airport maybe a recipe for an even bigger disaster in the future (remember PSA?). However, there are examples of operating urban airports such as Washington National. Still, this accident would argue for an airport where you could put the flight path out over the ocean or unpopulated land if you could.
* Not clear if Miramar should remain where it is. You can argue that Miramar was there first and that poor zoning decisions are to blame for putting houses around it. Still, Mirimar and the houses that surround it are where they are. Given that as a starting point, I think you would need to look at the relevant statistics to decide whether it was worth the risk. It is undeniable that mechanical problems occasionally happen (i.e., there is quantifiable risk), despite our best efforts. It is a question of weighing the benefits and the costs of that occasional mechanical problem.
* The facts are not all out yet. It is not clear what the pilot knew and how soon he knew it. Certainly, if ditching at sea were an option, we can wish that he had done so. However, I would guess that he was making the best decisions at the time that he could, given what he knew at the time. Also, a dead stick is a dead stick. Modern military jets aren't designed to glide, they're designed for performance. I'm guessing the pilot did all he could under the circumstances.
* Who is to blame? We won't know until the black box and records are sorted through. It will be a while. My suspicion, until then, however, would be to point the finger at faulty maintenance. This was not a combat mission. He was flying back to base. There should have been time for a decent inspection prior to the flight, one that hopefully would have prevented this. There is a question of whether it is time to flip to newer models or at least newly manufactured jets of the same model as fatigue is fatigue and if you fly/drive something long enough, you will have occasional breakdowns.
* If Miramar were moved to the middle of the desert would anything be different? Not clear. Certainly, the volume of flights over populated areas would decrease. However, this flight was returning from the carrier to the base. That would have to happen, regardless of whether we moved Miramar to the desert or not.
* Should we move San Diego Airport to the middle of the desert? The North Park disaster when PSA went down would suggest that it would be safer for all. On the other hand, that driver to the airport would take a lot longer and a lot more gas. You decide.
Posted by: Thoughtful | December 08, 2008 at 08:10 PM
To Barbara: somehow I think an aircraft failing and some failure of a human being stealing a tank are not truly related. I seem to remember a similar FOHB taking a tractor and leveling Granby, CO, a few years ago. Idiots will be idiots. Most pilots are very intelligent. Try to think about what you are posting.
To others: Since most of you (including me) have no idea what it is like to be flying a high powered jet, you should hold your tongue about the pilot's thoughts. He appeared to ground it in the canyon from the photos showing where it landed. There is very little possibility he could have made it to the ocean, depending on where he was coming from and the direction he was heading, which was not publicized judging from this article.
There are many details we don't know, and to make accusations based on ignorance is only prejudicial and hurtful.
This is truly a very sad event. Condolences to those who lost family and friends and to the pilot who had to make one of the toughest decisions of his life.
Posted by: SD resident | December 08, 2008 at 07:58 PM
latimes.com news local la-me-fa18crash-pg 0 6139721 photogallery index=11
This photos shows both the devastation and how close he was to the canyon and not hurting anyone.
url is butchered because I'm getting cross scripting error warnings
Posted by: T | December 08, 2008 at 06:57 PM
Paul - the pilot made the only choice available to him - since most reports state the jet was silent when it came down then there he was already past the point of controllability. The days of "The Great Santini" where you could dead stick a fighter jet to a landing are over. If the motors quit then the game is over - period - end of story - nothing more anyone can do except eject and attempt to save yourself. If you suggest that he should have committed suicide rather than face the aftermath than thats a different story - but I don't think we live in a society that condones ritual suicides to save face. The only thing way we can figure out if the accident was preventable will be to wait until the JAGMAN investigation is complete in lets say 8 to 10 months.
Saying that he should have done something differently in this situation is about the same thing as asking for manslaughter charges against him without knowing anything about what really happened or the how the systems of the F18 really work.
1200hrs
Posted by: 1200hrs | December 08, 2008 at 06:45 PM
well i read a few stupid things on here ....some people...first off ...for you all that feel its safer to convert to civilian use...get a life...thats gotta be the dumbest thing ever...this fighter probably had 3k lbs of fuel at the time it went down...fully fueled they hold 10k max....now lets think of a airliner....180k lbs of fuel....full..and sometimes they land with 50 to 60 k...just incase they have to circle for a while when there is problems on the runway...can you imagine 60k of fuel in that strip of houses...instead of 3..would have been a disaster....
and second...its not just a Marine base...yes its a marine air station..but units like 101 are half navy half marine....oh and by the way...this was a 101 plane that went down...so it could have been a navy or marine pilot...so stop bashing jarheads...
and third...you have no idea what it takes to fly these things...landing is the hardest...especially when you have mechanical issues....if his motors were out and his flight controls were dead stick...why should he take the ride to his death...im sure judging by his LATE punch out which also could have killed him...im sure he did everything in his power to save it from crashing on a house....
oh and another...who ever told you that marines fly old fa18s...well that s half right and wrong....these fighters are known as A+ they are the old A model FA 18 but i can assure you they have more life left in them then the newer C and D models....the reason why they made the switch back to them is cause thier C and D models landed on the carrier too many times...once they reach thier limit of carrier landings...they cant fly to the boat anymore...so the A+ marines have are structually better ....just missing some new technology like the instruments...but has nothing to do with the flight controls...or the engines...those are still new...and they get checked on flight hourly basis to assure they stay within standards of saftey....
This was a unfortunate accident....lets not bash on the military...or the pilot...or the plane....cause all three....KEEP YOU SAFE AT NIGHT...AND FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM WHEN YOU SLEEP......
thank god the pilot is ok...blessings go out the whoever was hurt or any losses...
Posted by: unknown | December 08, 2008 at 06:31 PM
I want to echo this sentiment "...the pilot should have stayed with his jet attempting to the very last to keep it from endangering any innocent lives, even if it meant his death. If in fact the grandmother, mother, and two kids died in this tragedy, my heart goes out to them and their family. If the pilot has a conscious, he knows he made the wrong choice."
And I also want to respond to this comment, "Our men and women do not serve for money but because they have a heart bigger than you can ever imagine!!"
I would say this is true in most cases but not all cases. Yes, there are many in the military who do it to honor their country, but there are also those who do it simply because they have no other opportunities and therefore no other choice. I've had friends in the military comment that they would rather have gone to college than enlist, but they didn't have the money and financial aid was too scarce.
The people portraying the military as a bunch of saints are just as foolish as the people wantonly attacking the military. You may have risked your life defending this country, but that shouldn't excuse you from the consequences if you make a mistake that costs an innocent civilian's life.
Posted by: Paul | December 08, 2008 at 06:22 PM
For those that keep saying the pilot should have died a hero by "riding it in" to save civillians - the F18 doesn't work that way. When the jet loses power it doesn't become a glider that can be "flown" to good crash site. The jet literally shuts down and the flight controls die putting Sir Isaac Newton in the drivers seat. if the pilot had attempted to "ride it in" we would be mourning three dead civillians and a Naval Aviator.
1500hrs
Posted by: 1200hrs | December 08, 2008 at 06:11 PM
I worked at TOPGUN at one time when we were still at Miramar, we moved in 1996, and I have been around Naval Aviation for most of my adult life. I also grew up on the beaches of San Diego. But the real issue here is a Marine pilot was in his plane trying to get it back to Miramar, the plane wasn't going to make it and he knew it. The only other thing he could try to do is stay in it and point it where it will do the least damage and hope the plane makes it that far. I don't know what he could see or where he was pointing it, but it sounds like he waited to the last few seconds before he punched out. After that it was all in God's hands. I trust the Lord and He has something in mind that He can do with this, I pray that He will guide and comfort the families of those that have lost in this tragedy. It would be nice if people would do what they can right now to help support and care for the ones left behind, and one family that needs care is this young Marine's family. It is hell trying to live with yourself after taking someone's life, on purpose or an accident, and they too need help.
For the naysayers on here that have no respect for our military, I'm sorry, no-one really wants to fight for our country if we don't have to, but someone sure better know how. Without our U.S. military, you'd probably be cursing a MiG crashing twice as often there.
Posted by: Rex | December 08, 2008 at 06:07 PM
As I hope everyone is done bashing Susan, I would like to come to her defense. First of all, all of you military peeps need to understand that your view point is just one of many, we live in a democracy where everyone (ostensibly) gets heard, so just because you all have strong opinions about the 'might' and 'moral defensibility' of our military, it doesn't mean that Susan doesn't have a point, nor that you should feel free to call her names under some high-horse of a guise. She makes a good point, in that we spend way too much money on the military - and that point is pretty hard to argue with. The military has caused about as many problems it has solved, what with all the improper training, lack of support, and single-mindedness of their superiors - mind you, I don't blame the soldiers, they are as honorable as any public service group that willfully puts themselves in harms way, which a small but proud group and rightly so. The problem is with the priorities of the US military towards hegemony at all costs, and this is what has been chipping away at our 'rep' ever since we decided to impose regimes from Haiti to Nicaragua through to current-day Iraq. Along with our support for Israel and our general balkanization of the Middle East, which has been pissing off Persians, Palestinians and other Arab constituencies for the last 50 years or so, to the extent that such military 'dangers' actually do exist they are more attributable to our financial priorities than anything else.
As a final note - whoever said this:
Civilians run the nation last time I looked...maybe you were thinking or North Korea, Cuba, half of Africa...etc.
is the true moron, because that is so patently false that it is really funny; the statement 'civilians run the nation' is a non sequitur. Our 'nation' is run by what is ostensibly a representative democracy; meaning for one that our government apparatus is more appropriately referred to as a system of collective organisms - i.e,, the executive branch, the judicial branch, where the emphasis is not on the individual at all; that being said, were that even an appropriate comment, these 'individuals' would not be 'civilians' but 'officers' of the state, and as you know the president is an officer (duh!). Susan was probably also referring to power the military lobby, which is one of the great 3 forces in our corporate fascist state - the other 2 being Big Pharma and Wall Street.
So, in closing, I appreciate all of you military people and what you do/have done, but please realize that your political views have been shaped quite literally by this government, so you should probably try to keep an open mind about stuff you haven't heard about. Plus, your knowledge of our government is sort of laughable, seeing as you call us 'civs' just 'NIMBYs' living in a 'fantasy land', and you are the ones who don't know how to put your collective finger on the actual meaning of 'civilian'.
--from Wikipedia:
Article Two of the Constitution establishes the President as commander-in-chief of the armed forces and enumerates powers specifically granted to the President.
A civilian under international humanitarian law is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces.
Posted by: El Gordo | December 08, 2008 at 06:04 PM
I am so sad for the small minds in our country. Barbara...do you propose all our weapons leave the country? Really? Would you like attacks to become a regular part of your daily life? How about families...would you like them to be separated from their loved ones for good? Obviously you have not thought your post through well enough so I think I'll just let that one go.
I can not say LOUD enough what a sad tragic event this is for all involved.
Posted by: Trish | December 08, 2008 at 05:57 PM
"People that can, do....People that can't, join the military. Get a real job, one that pays well. Then you can move away from those scummy dorm-looking housing units, and maybe you will cheer up a bit. If these guys are so smart, why doesn't the country pay them what they are worth?...or maybe they already do." - Mitch
Oh Mitch...you are a sad little man with an even smaller brain. I feel sorry for people like you who have no clue!!! People like you...who probably have made a good amount of money for yourself...have done so because of our men and women in uniform and you don't even bother to thank them. Our men and women do not serve for money but because they have a heart bigger than you can ever imagine!! You couldn't possibly understand the passion that fuels a Marine and that is why I feel sorry for your empty, pathetic, little insignificant life. Have you ever done anything that REALLY matters???
The saddest part of all of this is that you have managed to use this tragedy as a platform for your selfish views....Ugh...you disgust me.
God Bless the pilot and his family. Your military family is behind you 100%. My heart goes out to those lost and injured on the ground. God be with all of you.
Posted by: Trish | December 08, 2008 at 05:32 PM
This is a real tragedy, but I think it could have been much much worst. Its very easily to put the blame on the Marines, the pilot, the military or even San Diego, for housing the once Navy and now, Marine base. But ultimately, nothing is perfect. And there will be tragedies. MCAS has been there for over 50 years. There have been air shows, training, even during Charger Football games, where I am free to dance and sell pizza, are there fly overs by jets. And since then, no real harm has come. So, something like this happens today. Two are known to be dead, two missing, and 3 houses with about 2-3 million dollars of damage done to the city.
Yes, its sad, and people have to right to be angry. But, it could have been much worst. The pilot could have bailed out sooner, and it an apartment, or a school. He may not have been able to bail out any later, and if he did, that does not guarantee any less casualties.
Should the casualties and victims be compensated justly for this happening to them...yes. But is the Military, marines, the pilot, and everyone else directly associated to this happening be banished from now till for ever? No. Not unless you value preventing one tragedy in a blue moon, more than you value all of Europe not having to speak German.
Posted by: Eric K | December 08, 2008 at 05:30 PM
Wow I have been telling all my friends that something like this was due to happen again!
Does anyone remember the civillian who stole the Tank from the millitary in San Diego and did millions of dollars in damage, before before he high centered on the freeway median ?
Well This another Example of why we should do all our training and practice flights over-seas.
All millitary vehicles tanks planes weapons should not be atleast near a city,probably best to keep them all over in Germany or somewhere else but here!
May god take mercy on the victims because Our pilots apparently Dont!
Posted by: Barbara Winslow | December 08, 2008 at 04:55 PM
I was just ready a blog on a different newspaper's site. The topic was a story concerning the discovery of a body of a known gang member in the San Gabriel River. What I find so amazing is that even though the people who submitted comments in support of the deceased gang member couldn't possibly be more divergent from the people submitting comments in support of this pilot, both groups parrot the same message, "Don't judge! You can't judge! You need to wait to hear all the facts before you judge!"
Well folks, I'm gonna judge. The gangbanger met the fate that was appropriate considering his chosen way of life, and the pilot should have stayed with his jet attempting to the very last to keep it from endangering any innocent lives, even if it meant his death. If in fact the grandmother, mother, and two kids died in this tragedy, my heart goes out to them and their family. If the pilot has a conscious, he knows he made the wrong choice.
Posted by: Just Ed | December 08, 2008 at 04:50 PM
RE: Lisa's comment about McCain
Don't you folks read the Times? John McCain was involved in 5 accidents. He lost his first plane during training; the Navy's official investigation blamed "pilot error". The second accident was when he snagged some power lines in Spain due to "daredevil clowning" (McCain's words). He caused a blackout and severed an oil line on his plane but did return safely to his carrier. The third incident forced him to eject and the plane slammed into a grove of trees. Mc Cain said the engine flamed-out; the official report first blamed pilot error, then 2 weeks later was changed to an "undetermined engine failure" (not surprising, given that he was the son of an Admiral.) The fourth accident was the Forrestal Disaster, when a missle from another plane accidentally fired and hit the plane next to Mc Cain's. Mc Cain was lucky that he wasn't one of the 134 sailors killed. The 4th loss was when he was shot down over Hanoi.
Posted by: Scot | December 08, 2008 at 04:41 PM
Well I used to live on the opposite side of the canyon from where the plane crashed, and my husband is a pilot. - so yes I recognize the view well, if you take out the smoke.
Yes it matters whether it is University City or University anything else - because University city commonly called UTC is close to Miramar Base - which has had marines and Naval Aviators in it - there was a swap over a few years ago - and yes it was associated with top gun training. University Heights is much closer to down town SD.
That crash site is really close to a major school - he missed the kids at least.
The canyon he was apparently trying to land in is the one amtrak and the coaster and heavy goods trains go through - and if it has rained recently - it has a river in it. There are power lines too - and an apartment complex opposite the crash site - which in the good old days - the blue angels flew UNDER my window. (middle floor apartment) 3 levels
But this is high rent district. You do not fly military aircraft or jets over this area unless the air show is on and you are a blue-angel type plane. instead you go down the flight corridor of sorrento valley to the ocean. One of the reasons you do not fly over utc out of miramar is because Mt Soledad is sitting at the end of the runway waiting for you to crash into it if you screw up on take off in a wide bodied jet - and this is why Miramar will likely never be a replacement for san diego airport - because dead bodies scattered all over really high rent la jolla is a real no no. but wait - military airports aren't wide bodied jets - true - but they are noisey and high rent whiners about noise seem to have more clout than those living in lower rent districts. military planes out of miramar turn before the 805. Now it could be said the guy was going to Miramar rather than from it - which makes me wonder why he was over utc and not on the sorrento valley corridor. I don't know. You don't go into miramar airspace without permission - and he was talking to the military atc - so this is a horrible tragedy but it would have been much worse if he'd hit the school or the apartments.
the military has gone out of its way to fly safely and have good relations with the locals - and not annoy them with noise. I'm not military - I'm a foreigner. And the twit saying he could have put it in the ocean is just so full of b-s, better to shut up than to demonstrate your ignorance. The guys at miramar are good neighbors. I have no idea why this horrible accident happened but if I moved back there I would still feel safe living in what used to be towne centre raquet club, and then became Lucera aparments and is now Lucera condos. ... because stuff happens and the military have done their best to keep everyone as safe as statistically possible. You are far more likely to be killed in a traffic accident than a plane accident there.
Posted by: T | December 08, 2008 at 04:36 PM
Two innocent people have been killed, how tragic.
What happened today is the responsibility of the pilot, the mechanics who maintain the plane and ultimately the Marine Corps. Someone should face consequences for these unnecessary deaths.
Posted by: Paul | December 08, 2008 at 04:32 PM
As a Marine F/A-18 pilot (Naval Aviator) all I can say is my heart goes out to the family of those people who died. Gods grace and peace comfort them. To the residents near the crash site and anyone that goes to "see for themselves", STAY AWAY! There are some nasty things that are hazardous to unprotected people around military aircraft crash sites.
Educated Guesses & Conjecture: The pilot may be a Marine or Navy pilot since the training squadrons that may have been flying the F/A-18B or D (two-seater) during carrier qualification (note the plane originated at the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln) could be from VFA-125 (Lemoore), VMFAT-101 (Miramar) or possibly even from VFA-106 (Oceana). Training squadrons are not assigned regular fleet duty, all they do at the "boat" is do carrier landing qualifications. It sounds like the pilot was likely trying to take an aircraft that may have lost an engine to the divert (Miramar), which is much preferred to trying to have a possibly inexperienced new pilot under training land on the boat with one engine, when the other engine quit due to some form of failure (mechanical or otherwise). All I have to say is from what I've seen and heard today in the news I would have done the same thing. He would likely have ejected over the water if he had any indication that he might lose the second engine and crash. Nobody's perfect, but I'm sure he made the best decision his experience allowed.
- 2500 Hornet Hrs
Posted by: Anonymous Hornet Driver | December 08, 2008 at 04:23 PM
Mitch -
"Sounds like they should re-name it to Jar-heads that cant fly Corp Station."
Basically those "Jar Heads" have paid for your right to say that with their blood. You're an IDIOT
Susan Price
"It's ridiculous to have a military air station in a residential neighborhood. Miramar should be converted to civilian use. The military has too much power in our society"
That base was there for 40 years before the housing developements. Obama got elected so maybe the military won't have any power. Of course maybe then you will bitch and complain in Chinese. You, Madam, are also an idiot.
Captain of Marines..God Bless you and your devil dogs. This great nation has lost another warrior and as tragic as it is, the blood of patriots will continue to water the tree of liberty....Semper Fi
Posted by: Chris | December 08, 2008 at 04:16 PM
Patricia re: Veteran's Day fly-over Santa Monica
The fighter you saw wasn't playing chicken with the shoreline. It was doing a fly-over salute at UCLA honoring the Veterans who are currently at UCLA as students or are now alumni. I was here and it flew right over me at about 100 feet and was quite awonderful sight. AND it was not reckless. Sounds like this particular pilot's problem was that his engines quit, and when that happens, the plane falls like a stone.
Posted by: Diane | December 08, 2008 at 04:12 PM
To the captain, a real man's man...
People that can, do....People that can't, join the military. Get a real job, one that pays well. Then you can move away from those scummy dorm-looking housing units, and maybe you will cheer up a bit. If these guys are so smart, why doesn't the country pay them what they are worth?...or maybe they already do. Hey, if he crashes a few more-he can run for president on the Republican ticket.
Posted by: mitch | December 08, 2008 at 04:10 PM
1. McCain was not only shot down, but crashed five airplanes due to incompetence and if his father and grandfather hadn't been admirals, he would have been grounded and made a general duty officer not able to command a dinghy. McCain is, was, and always will be a loser. No matter how hard he tries, he will NEVER be Stockdale.
2. Clint, I am sure the families of those killed on the ground are happy to know that their lives weren't taken into consideration, or at least if you were at the stick they wouldn't have been. The F/A 18 is a two-seater at max so if the pilot survived, at least one civilian was killed on the ground, if not two.
3. Homeowners pay an increased insurance premium for living near an air field. I live near one and take my chances. Personally, I feel I have a low chance of having one of the few Cessnas crashing into my house vs. C-130s practicing touch and gos all day and night. Miramar residents made their choices.
Posted by: smith | December 08, 2008 at 04:09 PM
The military base was there before the houses, and the residents of those communities bought into those houses at a lower price because of it. It's ridiculous to complain when the risks were apparent from the get-go.
My prayers are with the pilot and the families affected by the accident.
Posted by: Amy | December 08, 2008 at 03:59 PM
Glad to see most of the comments here support our armed forces.
Capt John, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. Unfortunately we live in a current society of spoiled NIMBY's who believe you can have a peaceful society with no military, law enforcement, jails, etc. These narrowminded short-sighted thinkers only agree with something when it suits their needs. Bunch of f ing hypocrites living in a fantasy world.
Posted by: oh boy | December 08, 2008 at 03:58 PM
Secondly, Erin, McCain didn't "crash" five airplanes - he was shot down by the enemy during a war! It is always sad when something like this happens, but we need our military and we need them trained - that is the price of freedom!
Posted by: Lisa | December 08, 2008 at 01:57 PM
Actually, Lisa, according to articles in Salon and the Washington Post, McCain was actually involved in three plane crashes. However, he "lost" a total of five US government planes. The following account is posted on the Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain site. This site apparently doesn't cite, as no sources are provided.
"McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.
McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."
McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.
Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.
McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.
McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi. "
Posted by: Annie | December 08, 2008 at 03:55 PM
To all of the knee-jerkers out there:
I'm a former Navy flier and I'm also a former University City resident. Yes, there are planes up in the sky. And they were there a long time before I was. (And, as has been well-established by previous comments, long before just about anyone lived in the area.) To Susan, does "too much power" in the military explain the location of SAN and LAX? Of John Wayne Airport? Of Ontario? Look at a map.
What we should all really be concerned about, first and foremost, is the well-being of everyone involved. People have lost their homes. Reports say that there are two dead and three missing on the ground at this point. Think about that. Think about the human impact. And for crying out loud, don't use this incident to support ridiculous political statements.
As a final thought, I pulled up some maps, and the crash site is about a quarter mile from undeveloped land. That's six seconds at F/A-18 approach speed. If the plane could have made it that far, I'd like to think that one of my brother pilots would have put it down there. But it sounds like it just quit flying on him. Sometimes, airplanes stop doing what you want them to do, plain and simple.
Posted by: BD | December 08, 2008 at 03:39 PM
Susan, get a clue.
If you don't like living next to Miramar, MOVE! Simple as that! The people that move into neighborhoods surrounding military bases, airports, freeways, railways, highways and even raceways (like Pomona and Fontana) and then complain about the noise are out of their damn minds.
Those places were there there first, and I used to live a few houses from the 60 fwy and down the block was the Metrolink tracks.
Now I live near Pomona Raceway and every Feb and Nov, while I welcome the earth-moving racket, most of the neighbors complain.
The dragstrip was there first, I tell them. If you don't like it, leave. Nobody's forcing you to live there. It's your own stupidity and pride that makes you the type of person to complain to deaf ears.
God Bless the US military and my prayers for the victims of this unfortunate accident and pilot.
Posted by: LA Racer | December 08, 2008 at 03:38 PM
While today's crash is a tragedy for the families who lost homes and loved ones as well as for the Marine pilot, let's not forget that planes do on occasion crash...and sometimes into buildings. I recall two small planes that crashed near Santa Monica Airport....one into an apartment building, the other into a backyard. Luckily no one was killed. In southern Virginia a few years back an F/A-18 crashed into a neighborhood outside of Oceania Naval Air Station. There have been countless other aviation disasters in the U.S. where both commercial and military planes have crashed into neighborhoods with devastating results. If you look, however at the rate of commercial versus military incidents I think you'll find there have been more commercial crashes into neighborhoods with far more carnage. Should the airports be forced to relocate?
Posted by: GSF | December 08, 2008 at 03:20 PM
I'm sure the pilot did the best he could in trying to steer his plane into the canyon. There was probably no way with engine failure going on that he could have turned that thing around and headed back to sea to ditch. Our prayers and understanding should go out to the pilot as well. I'm sure he did the best he could!
Posted by: eric | December 08, 2008 at 03:13 PM