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Blame Denmark, not China, for Copenhagen failure

The decision to override the multilateral process and hold a secret meeting of select nations ruined any chance of success

It's been several days since the chaotic end to the Copenhagen climate conference but the aftershocks from its failure are still reverberating. As John Prescott points out in his letter to the Guardian, the pointing of fingers in the blame game does not help the regaining of trust needed for the positive resumption of talks early next year and to complete them by December 2010, the new deadline agreed to in Copenhagen.

First, the misinformation put out in the past few days has to be corrected. The UK climate secretary, Ed Miliband, backed by individuals such as Mark Lynas (both writing in the Guardian) have turned on China as the villain that "hijacked" the conference. The main "evidence" they gave was that China vetoed an "agreement" on a 50% reduction in global emissions by 2050 and an 80% reduction by developed countries, in the small meeting of 26 leaders on Copenhagen's final day.

There was indeed a "hijack" in Copenhagen, but it was not by China. The hijack was organised by the host government, Denmark, whose prime minister convened a meeting of 26 leaders in the last two days of the conference, in an attempt to override the painstaking negotiations taking place among 193 countries throughout the two weeks and in fact in the past two to four years.

That exclusive meeting was not mandated by the UN climate convention. Indeed, the developing countries had warned the Danish prime minister, Lars Lokke Rasmussen, not to come up with his own "Danish text" to be negotiated by a small group that he himself would select, as this would violate the multilateral treaty-based process, and would replace the documents carefully negotiated by all countries with one unilaterally issued by the host country.

Despite this, the Danish government produced just such a document, and it convened exactly the kind of exclusive group that would undermine the UN climate convention's multilateral and democratic process. Under that process, the 193 countries had been collectively working on coming to a conclusion on the many aspects of the climate deal.

Weeks before, it had become clear that Copenhagen could not adopt a full agreement because many basic differences remained. Copenhagen should have been designed as a stepping stone to a future successful outcome accepted by all. Unfortunately, the host country Denmark selected a small number of the 110 top leaders who came, to meet in secret, without the mandate or even knowledge of the convention's membership.

The selected leaders were given a draft Danish document that mainly represented the developed countries' positions, thereby marginalising the developing countries' views tabled at the two-year negotiations.

Meanwhile, most of the thousands of delegates were working for two weeks on producing two reports representing the latest state of play, indicating areas of agreement and those where final decisions still had to be taken.

These reports were finally adopted by the conference. They should have been announced as the real outcome of Copenhagen, together with a decision to resume and complete work next year. It would not have been a resounding success, but it would have been an honest ending that would not have been termed a failure.

Instead, the Copenhagen accord was criticised by the final plenary of members and not adopted. The unwise attempt by the Danish presidency to impose a non-legitimate meeting to override the legitimate multilateral process was the reason why Copenhagen will be considered a disaster.

The accord itself is weak mainly because it does not contain any commitments by the developed countries to cut their emissions in the medium term. Perhaps the reason for this most glaring omission is that the national pledges so far announced amount to only a 11-19% overall reduction by the developed countries by 2020 (compared to 1990), a far cry from the over 40% target demanded by the developing countries and recent science.

To deflect from this great failure on their part, the developed countries tried to inject long-term emission-reduction goals of 50% for the world and 80% for themselves, by 2050 compared to 1990. When this failed to get through the 26-country meeting, some countries, especially the UK, began to blame China for the failure of Copenhagen.

In fact, these targets, especially taken together, have been highly contentious during the two years of discussions, and for good reasons. They would result in a highly inequitable outcome where developed countries get off from their responsibilities and push the burden of adjustment onto the developing countries.

Together, they imply that developing countries would have to cut their emissions overall by about 20% in absolute terms and at least 60% in per capita terms. By 2050, developed countries with high per capita emissions – such as the US – would be allowed to have two to five times higher per capita emission levels than developing countries. The latter would have to severely curb not only their emissions but also their economic growth, especially since there is, up to now, no credible plans let alone commitments for financial and technology transfers to help them shift to a low-emissions development path.

The developed countries have already completed their industrialisation on the basis of cheap carbon-based energy and can afford to take on an 80% goal for 2050, especially since they now have the technological and organisational capacity and infrastructure. For a minimally equitable deal, they should commit to cuts of at least 200-400%, or move into negative emission territory, with net re-absorption of greenhouse gases, to enable developing countries the atmospheric space to develop.

The acceptance of the two targets would also have locked in a most unfair sharing of the remaining global carbon budget as it would have allowed the developed countries to get off free from their historical responsibility and their carbon debt. They would have been allocated the rights to a large amount of "carbon space", historically and in the future, without being given the obligation and responsibility to undertake adequate emission cuts nor to make adequate financial and technology transfers to developing countries.

Fortunately these targets are absent from the accord. The imperative for the negotiations next year is to agree on what science says is necessary for the world to do (in terms of limits to temperature rise or in global emissions cut) but also on what is a just and equitable formula for sharing the costs and burdens of adjustment, and to decide on both simultaneously. By asking for agreement on only a global goal and a very low commitment figure for their own obligatory cut, the developed countries were attempting to fix a global carbon budget distribution that enables them to get away with the hijacking of atmospheric space, a resource worth many trillions of dollars.

Learning from Copenhagen's mistakes, the countries should return to the multilateral track and resume negotiations in the climate convention's two working groups as early as possible.

They can start with the two reports passed at Copenhagen as reference points. There should not be more attempts to hijack this multilateral process, which represents our best hope to achieve final results.

The bottom-up democratic process is slower but also steadier, compared to the top-down attempt to impose a solution by a few powers that will always lack legitimacy in decision-making and success or sustainability in implementation.


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Blame Denmark, not China, for Copenhagen failure | Martin Khor

This article was published on guardian.co.uk at 12.11 GMT on Monday 28 December 2009. It was last modified at 12.24 GMT on Monday 28 December 2009.

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  • TheGreatRonRafferty TheGreatRonRafferty

    28 Dec 2009, 12:24PM

    No Martin. The whole idea was an utter nonsense from the start.

    There was no way all the countries were going to agree, and that is without the added distraction of the world and his wife also having their own agenda.

    Exaggeration, lies, claims against "rich" nations, by "developing" nations, (meaning the poor of 'rich'nations would be funding the lifestyle of the rich of 'poor' nations.

    It was self evident that the whole charade was doomed to failure long before 20,000 warmists gathered in Copenhagen to prove that it was always the others who were going to pay - not the warmists, whose jetting the world strangely produces no carbon at all.

    Take time, take stock, come up with some plans. For starters, never ever again hold a conference that encourages 20,000 warmists to pollute the planet with their travel, and to go on a self-aggrandising ego trip.

  • WheatFromChaff WheatFromChaff

    28 Dec 2009, 12:31PM

    It's been several days since the chaotic end to the Copenhagen climate conference but the aftershocks from its failure are still reverberating.

    Well quite. This Christmas, my family spoke of little else.

  • WheatFromChaff WheatFromChaff

    28 Dec 2009, 12:37PM

    The developed countries have already completed their industrialisation on the basis of cheap carbon-based energy and can afford to take on an 80% goal for 2050, especially since they now have the technological and organisational capacity and infrastructure. For a minimally equitable deal, they should commit to cuts of at least 200-400%, or move into negative emission territory, with net re-absorption of greenhouse gases, to enable developing countries the atmospheric space to develop.

    So you are saying that people alive now who happen to have been born into (or migrated to) western countries should effectively ruin their economies in order t "repay" the "carbon debt" which was incurred by Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his mates?

    Good luck selling that one to the people of the west.

  • Exodus20 Exodus20

    28 Dec 2009, 12:41PM

    The "atmospheric space, a resource worth many trillions of dollars." probably sums up one of the real motives. Oh, well, no surprises.

    China and India could probably cut their emissions by at least half within one year if every developed countries make their own consumer goods. The bonus is the saving on transportation carbon emissions.

  • NeverMindTheBollocks NeverMindTheBollocks

    28 Dec 2009, 12:44PM

    compare and contrast:

    As John Prescott points out in his letter to the Guardian, the pointing of fingers in the blame game does not help the regaining of trust...

    with
    "Blame Denmark, not China, for Copenhagen failure"

  • Gangastaista Gangastaista

    28 Dec 2009, 12:45PM

    Exodus20

    China and India could probably cut their emissions by at least half within one year if every developed countries make their own consumer goods. The bonus is the saving on transportation carbon emissions.

    Coming from a family that once owned a British-built car, and a British-built motorcycle, what you suggest is a horror beyond contemplation.

  • bobemax bobemax

    28 Dec 2009, 12:50PM

    Better still, blame no one. There is no one Country less, or more guilty than any other Country for accelerating, or affecting "Climate Change.
    Each Countries self interest is the stumbling block that prevents global agreement. It is much like the old League of Nations, it was well meaning but could not defeat "Self Interest".
    Seeking deals is not the way to seek resolutions, and until the power is removed from individual Nations, the answer to "Climate Change" will remain elusive. Without borders there can be no arguments. Without national governments, there can be no self interest. And without self interest there is hope for this world.

  • straggleyway straggleyway

    28 Dec 2009, 1:02PM

    I just get the impression this is never going to be fixed. People following the science will still be labelled as 'warmists' and scientists will be accused of attempting a commie world government (I mean, are you serious?). Some countries will try to change, but over the next decades we will probably watch the effects and wonder how we got here. Still, we gotta go someway eh?

  • NeverMindTheBollocks NeverMindTheBollocks

    28 Dec 2009, 1:04PM

    @WheatFromChaff

    Too late, I'm afraid. Monbiot got there before you. He was probably faster than you because he broke his well-self-publicised lifelong vow not to fly by spending 16 hours flying to and from Canada. :)

  • JamesCameron JamesCameron

    28 Dec 2009, 1:05PM

    "Blame Denmark, not China, for Copenhagen failure"

    I think not! It was the pressure groups from the aid industry and the green persuasion who completely lost the plot in Copenhagen. They are so sunk in anti-Americanism they compltely missed the sympathetic and courageous stance taken by Barack Obama (very much against the advice of his most senior staff). All the evidence shows that it was Climategate, the Russian confirmation of the nefarious activities of Hadley/CRU, and China's deep scepticism both of the science and the proposed solutions that ruined the talks. But Greenpeace announced that the US had "dragged the talks down", while Christian Aid blamed rich countries? "strong-arm tactics and instransigence", singling out Obama for special condemnation. There was no pressure put on China or South Africa to tow the Global Warming line. On the contrary, the NGO's perversely assisted the wrecking of the conference by making public leaked documents which destablised the talks. And even when a deal was patched together, which at least provided help to vulnerable countries and offered an (admittedly slender) basis on which to rebuild, they called for it to be scrapped at a post-mortem meeting on Monday. The ambassadors from the Maldives and Bangladesh said they needed the deal that was reached, but Action Aid insisted eveything be trashed. Perhaps oil giants like Exxon Mobil should soon start funding Greenpeace, the NGOs, and the western christian churches as "useful idiots".

  • bobemax bobemax

    28 Dec 2009, 1:21PM

    In my comments of 12.50PM today, i omitted to include the following:-

    With 6.8 bn human beings occupying this plannet, there is little hope of the world surviving as a life sustaining planet in any event.

  • NeverMindTheBollocks NeverMindTheBollocks

    28 Dec 2009, 1:21PM

    @corporatescum

    I know that "comment is free" and all that, but might I suggest you consider some facts as well?

    For starters, you might read the history section here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading

    Carbon trading had its origins in the late 60's/early 70's (long before Enron was what it became, and became infamous for) and it was built on a successful acid rain trading program in the US (one that both businesses and environmental groups supported!).

    Not a clue what your reference to 1997 is concerning. Possibly the Kyoto Protocol from 1997 that bound most developed nations to having a cap-and-trade system?

    The EU system started on 1 Jan 2005.

  • cuckoocuckoo cuckoocuckoo

    28 Dec 2009, 1:28PM

    All nice and interesting ,but in the end it was chinas veto. So pointing finger afterwards at someone else, is a lot of hot air. Considering that a lot of developing countries have a lot of natural resources ,one can assume,that they could have led the way in
    development of green energies . Imagine all that sun in africa. Thanks to china ,
    developing countries will accept any kind of aide and investment . Africa is just the playground for big countries like china and the u.s of a .The companies that are there ,usually just getting rid of the stuff they can't sell in their own countries.
    Knowing the chinese they will also spread their very own brand of thinking.
    ideology has not been completely wiped out with new found wealth. What denmark is supposed to gain in this sorry affair is a bit of a mystery.

  • JunkkMale JunkkMale

    28 Dec 2009, 1:40PM

    Oh, heavens, I wish some (it's a rather hard tribe to define) would make their minds up.

    First it was the Americans, but then Obama got his people to talk to our people and Gordon and Ed dutifully moved it to the Chinese.

    Then they got onto some African types who kinda need their guns and stuff, who reckoned Obama wasn't really that much one from the home team so moved it back there.

    Meanwhile, in gated communities, it all seemed pretty safe to blame Russian hackers, but somehow that then got shunted over to China.

    However, showing all the synergy for which they are noted, fellow Government rapper/reporter/whatever, 'so long as it has 1st class seats and 5* rooms to get/stay there' has weighed in to deflect off the Chinese and back to the hapless Yanks.

    And meanwhile they all get to fly about overseeing climate funds as a 'reward'.

    Whilst being coherently 'statespersonlike':

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/20/ed-miliband-china-copenhagen-summit

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/28/john-prescott-defends-china-copenhagen

    No connection, one is sure...

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/23/john-prescott-lands-top-job-at-chinese-university-115875-21617900/

    The EU was looking pretty clear up to now, but no, the land of bacon and... well, bacon anyway, is now next on the list. It's the meat thing, right?

    Who next? Austral... er... oh. Cana... um... Braz...sheesh.

    Confused? You should be.

    Fortunately, all the finger points are settled on one thing at least, and that is the global public has no right not to be fully on board with all they say and do, from science to politics to fingers wags, because, well, they are right and you are wrong. Daily.

    And if anyone doubts it, then press releases masquerading as news are freely available from the Grauniad to the BBC that prove just about anything some are prepared to swallow.

    At least, apparently 'Scientists say this could be happening'. Or not.

    Happy New Year!

  • twiglette twiglette

    28 Dec 2009, 1:40PM

    The 'developed' countries have not "completed their industrialisation". A whole new green infrastructure and green industrial machine will have to be built in Britain at vast expense and huge carbon cost if this island is to move to a sustainable future. In a sense the industrialised nations are in a tighter corner than the developing ones, as the latter can build sustainable systems cheaply and from scratch, whereas for us both the cost and the replacement are frought with planning and financial pitfalls. So perhaps Milliband is not so far wrong after all!

  • crompton crompton

    28 Dec 2009, 1:46PM

    It is much too chaotic a world for the simplistic solutions proposed by the Greens, there was never going to be a solution acceptable to all parties, because of the socio-economic complexities.

    I read an article in the Guardian by John Prescott saying it had been a success, now he's saying don't blame the Chinese for the failure. Is it me?

  • FoundThePlot FoundThePlot

    28 Dec 2009, 1:56PM

    As Harry Lime never said
    "In Denmark they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and Lego - and what did that produce? The Copen-chuffing- hagen accord."

    The whole deal was I believe wrecked by
    - leaders' acknowledgement that scepticism is now in the ascendancy
    - a nod and a wink among the suits that said "OK - hydrocarbons are finite - we'll paper a few cracks now, do the alternative R&D (not too urgently you understand) but meanwhile BURN THE F***ING LOT PRONTO so that we can preside over the whole cycle of exploitation again but with a different driver"

    The NGOs would also get their tacit wish in the long term, read - life-support for new objects for the campaigning that is in any case a fundamental part of international consultations like Kyoto and Brokenhagen. Seat at top table assured; status quo rescued. Phew.

    On the other hand, individuals concerned about the climate can only continue to follow their consciences. Whch in terms of the conventional CO2 producing technologies simply dictates "Travel less, consume less". But to that, I can definitely say from recent experience, "Oxford Street says no".

  • clearHead4U clearHead4U

    28 Dec 2009, 2:13PM

    To get the developing nations to agreed on any fair deals, the developed nations should set a good example for others to followotherwise this is what happens between the people in the developed countriesand those in the developing ones :
    - Drive big cars Vs Riding on push bikes.
    - Jet around the world once or twice a year for holidays Vsgoing to their local parks on their bikes.
    - Watching big screen LCD TVs Vs 14" CRT TVs.
    - Wasting half eaten foodin their big meals Vs the bare basics.
    - Living a luxurious lifestyle Vs just managing to get a roof over their heads.
    etc

    Well, unless the 2 sides get a lot closer from their inequalities, I doubt the developing nations will see any deals as being fair.

  • lazymindsdislike lazymindsdislike

    28 Dec 2009, 2:23PM

    Oh no...never China....how could we?
    ...such a ecological caring democratic country, allowing his citizen to protest against social& ecological abuse.
    China is a light of hope to each of us!
    Praise pseudo communist turbo capitalism.
    Let thousand plastic flowers grow!

    Ps: shut up damn sparrow!

  • lazymindsdislike lazymindsdislike

    28 Dec 2009, 2:28PM

    Pseudo "better east" progress arrogance is as stupid as neo western resource colonialism.

    So...does the Chang Chinese still consider them self as higher developed as the rest of humanity?

    ONE SPECIE IN DANGER!

    ONE!

  • stuv stuv

    28 Dec 2009, 2:28PM

    ... what a silly article ... does Martin Khor really think, that US, China, India, etc, etc, etc plus the real 'hosts' the UN, are/were going to let the government of a small European country of 5 million people either set or determine the real agenda ... he'll have to wake up and sniff the real world if he wants any credibility ...

  • LucAstro LucAstro

    28 Dec 2009, 2:43PM

    The 4% reductions in emission proposed by the US relative to 1990 were unacceptable from the start and jeppardized any chance of deal. The US civilisation is going down the drain, with their citizens remaining uninformed despite having the best scientists on climate change. They are unable to have a critical look at their system, even when it fails miserably. The subprime meltdown on Wall street has so far lead to no proper reforms. Why just not copy the banking laws of Canada (just one case I am more familiar with) whose bank sailed through the crisis without significant losses.

  • DeChantal DeChantal

    28 Dec 2009, 2:53PM

    In secret how we appreciate China strong standing...That cannot be bullied by any coertions and inciting ...which was aim to The Chinese banking toilets ...in desperate attempt in the name of climate!

    Copenhagen Climate Change blufferies ...By the way how those propaganda of Hollywwod stars and puppetries of organized crimes and pretenders to the throne of Europa... bannning a veteran Scientist on airing a proffessional unsolicited opinions over BBC ... No person of normal and sound mind ..have the impression of sincererity in Global Climate physiological problems...rather of sovereignty treacheries and extortions of frauds from political gangsterism.

    UN seem turning also to the directions of Global gangsterism..and it cannot no longer recall legalities in sovereignty by legal protocol to summit.

  • fabiusmaximus fabiusmaximus

    28 Dec 2009, 2:54PM

    If you think I am giving up my lifestyle based on dodgy science you can think again. There is no brotherhood of man and I am not my brothers keeper. I like things the way they are.

  • BrianKern BrianKern

    28 Dec 2009, 2:55PM

    I respect Mr. Khor's opinion, but he's way off here.

    The last-minute scramble to get an agreement, any kind of agreement, smelled of desperation, and Mr. Khor is right that the attempt fell along lines we recognize from WTO negotiations-- a few big guys get in a room and try to thrash out a deal, excluding others. But these were hardly the key reason the conference was such a failure.

    For once, Western politicians are correct in their analysis of the conference, and the blame apportioned to China is justified. China had a half-year plan to sabotage the conference, and it followed its plan consistently.

    First it propagandized that it was turning green, with more renewable energy and conservation projects. This was a story that many reporters outside of China took at face value when really China is an environmental disaster and the little the government's doing about that is completely overshadowed by the environmental destruction being wrought.

    Second, it announced that it would be making reductions "of some kind". Again, this was regarded widely as a positive step.

    Third, it said that the reductions would come in the form of a decrease in "carbon intensity", a bogus measurement that would mean in practice that China could pretty much just go on polluting as before.

    Then, at the conference, its sole strategy was to sabotage any kind of agreement that contained any language of a mandatory or binding nature, and in this, it was successful.

    Its success was made easier by the foot-dragging of the US Senate, and Mr. Khor is correct that the West's pledges are not as big as they should be, but given the fact that US for years was nowhere on this issue, its pledge of 17% reductions counts as significant progress.

    Many developing countries actually side with the West in wanting a binding agreement, and the basic template is there: the West must do the most to decrease emissions but the rest of the world must do something too, and the West must provide substantial funding of the developing world's efforts.

    The interesting thing about the outcome of the conference was just how isolated China was. There was only a handful of nations that supported its position. Strangely, this resembled the dynamics of Kyoto, where the US ended up refusing to participate, along with a few other countries.

    In that case, the rest of the world was right to call the US out and go on without it, even though it meant a much weakened treaty. In this case, the rest of the world should have done the same without China.

    When you've got a big bully hold-out, whether the US or China, the negotiating position must be to isolate that country and constantly call its bluffs. In the end, it may go along, which would be better, but even if it does not, then the rest of the world needs to make progress without it. Eventually, like the US, it will come creeping along when its domestic political dynamics change.

    One last word: Mr Khor concludes with a reference to bottom-up democratic decision-making being more substantial. I couldn't agree more, but many countries went to the conference with strong support from their electorates, whereas China, being an authoritarian dictatorship, has not electorate at all, and because of its strict censorship, the vast majority of people there know little of what's actually been going on with international negotiations. So where does that leave the bottom-up approach where China's concerned? Mr Khor is using an analytical lens from the early years of globalization that can be more misleading than enlightening in the current age in which the dynamics of international relations have changed substantially. The "developing world" is not a united block, and that fact must be acknowledged. The sort of "developing world solidarity" that Mr Khor hews to here is deluded.

  • RapidEddie RapidEddie

    28 Dec 2009, 3:02PM

    China never said that they would cut emissions. They have expressly and consistently said that they expect their emissions to continue to grow.

    They 'pledged' to attempt to limit the rate of growth.

    All that was known before the conference. China is only involved in the talks anyway because it doesn't want to give developed countries - the US in particular - a justification to put limits or embargoes on Chinese goods. So it plays along.

    This was all common knowledge. That China didn't agree to cuts in their emissions should have come as a surprise to no one. Apparently, developed nations believed either that they knew better or that they could dictate to the Chinese. They didn't. They couldn't. Quelle surprise.

    Perhaps at the next conference, delegates could start from positions more grounded in political reality.

  • panktainter panktainter

    28 Dec 2009, 4:01PM

    I think that before developing countries stick their hands out for free money they should develop safe and orderly governments. I have no desire for my country to help countries condoning and profligating terrorism, genocide, and repression of their own people. Sudan and Yemen were very vocal in demanding money for the climate yet we know the money would never be used for that purpose.

    What concerns me more, and it was mentioned only once in the media that I could find, was Denmark's order for it's population not to display any Christmas decorations lest Muslim countries be offended. The country is 93% evangelical Lutherans and they have to stop their celebration of Christ?!

    Screw global warming and concentrate on the slaughter of Christians around the world. Constantinople used to be the Christian base and now less than 1,000 followers live there. Most of the Christians in Iraq have been killed or driven off. Sudan has murdered hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims. Another Muslim tried to blow up a plane in the US the other day. Feral scum!

    The global warming scare tactics are a facade for money making frauds (see Gore). Today at my home it is 12 degrees and three feet of snow. Been that way for hundreds of years as long as my ancestors have lived here. Earth's climate is changing but it always has since creation. There was more carbon and pollution in the air before humans progressed. Volcanoes and such. We took steps to reduce acid rain in the 70s and 80s. It worked. We can clean our air as technology improves and is cost efficient. No sense going nuts because someone claims they will be drowning in 70 years. B as in B, S as in S. Cry me a river. Clean up your own backyards before you stick your hand out for my hard earned money.

  • Vyse Vyse

    28 Dec 2009, 4:03PM

    I don't see how we can blame the Danish PM; he clearly foresaw the failure, his decision to make a agreement on the side wasn't undermining anything, it was desperation by people willing to do something before time runs out. What a load of crock this article is. And theirs people here saying oh we can't blame them (the leaders, specifically the Chinese), yes we can. We give them the power, we have a right to expect from it/

  • oldcon oldcon

    28 Dec 2009, 4:04PM

    Blame! Congratulations, rather!

    Now we've got time - 5 years or more - to reappraise the evidence, this time including that of sceptics such as Prof. Lindzen of MIT and others but ignoring the input of Greenpeace, FoT and similar and taking a somewhat jaundiced approach to the IPCC's assertions, given, inter alia, Dr Pachauri's apparent conflict of interest, even if that isn't such as to invalidate the IPCC's conclusions.

    The debate which must now take place will have to take a more nuanced approach, i.e. encompass not only whether AGW is a genuine phenomenon, which it may well be, but also the relative input of other factors, the validity of some of the computer models being used and a proper cost-benefit analysis of some of the measures (e.g. carbon trading) now being proposed.

    Scepticism isn't the same as denial. But there's a strong feeling amongst many of us sceptics that so far the debate hasn't been conducted in an even-handed way or in the public manner required if economically harmful, though possibly necessary, measures are required.

  • stevehill stevehill

    28 Dec 2009, 4:13PM

    As John Prescott points out in his letter to the Guardian, the pointing of fingers in the blame game does not help the regaining of trust needed for the positive resumption of talks...

    So why are you writing a piece called "Blame Denmark"?

    Jesus wept!

  • infrafred infrafred

    28 Dec 2009, 4:45PM

    'The developed countries have already completed their industrialisation on the basis of cheap carbon-based energy and can afford to take on an 80% goal for 2050, especially since they now have the technological and organisational capacity and infrastructure. For a minimally equitable deal, they should commit to cuts of at least 200-400%, or move into negative emission territory, with net re-absorption of greenhouse gases, to enable developing countries the atmospheric space to develop.'

    A reduction of 100% means a reduction to zero.

    A reduction of 200% is either meaningless or it means a reversal from emissions to absorption of the same amount.

    Is this what the writer means or is he just innumerate?

  • roverdc roverdc

    28 Dec 2009, 4:46PM

    Surely regardless of whethere one believes in AGW or not the blame lies with the fact that some nations were out to abuse the climate change to get an unwarranted subsidy instead of using the money raised to put in place energy efficiency and renewable energy programs. In short a broadening of the misuse of the money raised we have already seen in the form of unproven carbon sequestration, proven useless carbon trading and proven erratic wind energy programs.
    All except our on its way out government realised that this was a guaranteed way out of office, as aid now has an even smaller cult following than climate change given its record of possibly even more spectular wastage than green causes.

  • VladDrakul VladDrakul

    28 Dec 2009, 5:17PM

    '' fabiusmaximus
    28 Dec 2009, 2:54PM

    If you think I am giving up my lifestyle based on dodgy science you can think again. There is no brotherhood of man and I am not my brothers keeper. I like things the way they are.''

    Of course you do, as do most people who enjoy the view from privelage as they grind someones else's face in the mud with the heel of their boot. Wether it has been tribes, companies of soldiers or any organisation or cooperation there have always been the parasites who with their sociopathic behaviour cause the misery, betrayel corruption and daily genocides taking place.

    In India, a rich developing 'western ally' the middle classes feel just like you do;that 2 MILLION CHILDREN die every year of the slow tortured death of starvation. Their 'untouchables' tramp coloured acid waters so that we can get cheap clothing and their political leaders still haven't prosecuted the mass murderers Union Carbide for the 180,000 dead, sick or dying from the worlds worst enviromental disaster Bhopal.

    This is just the effects of your 'morality' corruption on one nation alone, cue in China, EU , USA,Africa etc and you can see the pretty picture your ;'There is no brotherhood of man and I am not my brothers keeper, I like things the way they are.'' philosophy' creates. You are the perfect product of our system, not a citizen with rights and duties just a thumb sucking consumer. There is another word I would use and it is evil. Strong word but utterly appropriate if you are not so limited that you think that evil is something that only exists in those with power as opposed to the good and evil in all of us.

    So you lack compassion and are proud and boast about it. Unfortunatly I fear there is going to be far more suffering and killing in the next century than the last. Billions are going to die this time and all notions of freedom and humanity and it will be because there are too many people who think like you do. Who hate others who ,wether or not they are 'naive' care about things enough to show that we a re not all souless waiting for the grave thing worshippers.

    In reality the 'cynical' are even more naive than the 'naive' who what ever their youth and inexperience at least understand and feel the life force and moral imperitive of survival as opposed to laughing at 'stupid youf', antiwar demonstrators or UAF who just irritate shoppers on their way to consume some more. There ARE consequences to your cynicism and to have not have had millions on the street protesting the Iraq war in 2002 or against vietnam would have been a devastating comment on the human race as a whole rather than as a part.

    Wether you like it or not your life will change as biological realities will force it too sooner or later. The question for the stupidly selfish like you and the many other like you out there is, do you want to keep your democratic freedoms and dignity or will you be happy making all the necessary sacrifices along with all your other 'brothers' while watching the very rich retire behind high tech security systems to live like techno demi-gods while 90+% of the rest of the survivors after billions have been 'culled', live like cows in a field. If you don't like the sound of that then you better start caring about others or else one day you will be alone as you say you want to be but it won't be like you want it to be.

  • skumar skumar

    28 Dec 2009, 5:18PM

    So you are saying that people alive now who happen to have been born into (or migrated to) western countries should effectively ruin their economies in order t "repay" the "carbon debt" which was incurred by Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his mates?

    Good luck selling that one to the people of the west.

    its not a question of selling it to the people nor its a question of ruining our western economies -- after-all the west has industrialised through carbon emissions and colonial mid-adventures across the world -- its a moral obligation.

  • skumar skumar

    28 Dec 2009, 5:20PM

    China and India could probably cut their emissions by at least half within one year if every developed countries make their own consumer goods. The bonus is the saving on transportation carbon emissions.

    That might be the case for China today -- however both India and China are on a path of industrialisation and self-sufficiency to support their local economies..

    To put it another way -- these countries will are economically prospering, but in the case of India -- consumerism in the West has not effect on India's growth. They need energy regardless.

  • Fomalhaut88 Fomalhaut88

    28 Dec 2009, 5:39PM

    The developed countries have already completed their industrialisation on the basis of cheap carbon-based energy and can afford to take on an 80% goal for 2050, especially since they now have the technological and organisational capacity and infrastructure. For a minimally equitable deal, they should commit to cuts of at least 200-400%, or move into negative emission territory, with net re-absorption of greenhouse gases, to enable developing countries the atmospheric space to develop.

    The best I have ever read.

    Do you hear that folks, a 400% cut!!!!

    So, FOUR times the current CO2 output of this nation going to be extracted from the atmosphere, compressed, and pumped into the earth?????

    No more CO2 output, and the taking of 4 times the current CO2 output from the atmosphere???

    It needs no energy, I take it????

    How will you extract it? What process?

    This is typical of the sort of stupid nonesense you get from this ever-vocal, ever-loud "green" lobby.

    The rest of the thesis we are supposed to take seriously.

    Oh dear.

  • NeverMindTheBollocks NeverMindTheBollocks

    28 Dec 2009, 5:44PM

    Now that's odd...

    Earlier corporatescum wrote at least 3 postings here. All of them have disappeared completely. Without even the usual "Comment deleted" comment.

    I disagreed with what corporatescum said, but surely there should at least be a trail left when deleting people's comments once posted.

  • adult adult

    28 Dec 2009, 5:52PM

    Blame others to cover your own sins, say you're not giving up as you like things the way they are, etc. This author and these posters need to grow up.

  • LaughingRight LaughingRight

    28 Dec 2009, 5:53PM

    Whenever I read an article like this of few old sayings always come to mind.
    Beggars can't be choosers, The Golden Rule, He who has the Gold Makes the Rules, Put up or shut up. There are others but these are the main ones. In the end if Climate Change could be managed and there is considerable questions about this, it would require some sort of world government to enforce the carbon mitigation. There is no possibility of this happening without
    major armed conflict. On the other hand a major armed conflict would probably kick up enough dust to reverse Global warming and send us in the other direction. Huge loss of human life, massive reduction in industrialization, the end of Globalization. The Greens would love this. If there were any Greens left.

  • knife knife

    28 Dec 2009, 6:20PM

    @VladDrakul

    In India, a rich developing 'western ally' the middle classes feel just like you do;that 2 MILLION CHILDREN die every year of the slow tortured death of starvation.

    Firstly, a source for your figure might have been nice, and anyway this is India's shame and problem, not the UK's. Secondly, the UK already gives India lots of money:

    Prime Minister Gordon Brown today announced that the UK will invest another £825 million pounds for development in India over the next three years.

    This isn't what most people would recognise as investment, a favourite NL euphemism for any kind of expenditure of public money, but is in reality gifts to pay for teachers and classrooms.

    So how is it that India, with all these dirt-poor people, can afford a space program? I think we should be cancelling all aid to India and they should be reviewing their own priorities.

    Their 'untouchables' tramp coloured acid waters so that we can get cheap clothing

    I agree, that is terrible. We shouldn't be importing anything from India which could be made here. It may mean UK consumers paying a bit more for things but will reduce our unemployment as well as the fuel costs of transporting fairly basic manufactures halfway across the world.

    Btw, what do you think the exploited Indian textile workers will do for work when that happens?

    The rest of your ravings are best ignored.

    PS - lazymindsdislike. The singular of species is species, though I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you as English obviously isn't even your second language.

  • Revround Revround

    28 Dec 2009, 6:43PM

    "Blame Denmark, not China, for Copenhagen failure"

    I didn't bother reading any of the article. That line was just about enough for me.
    I'm very happy to cure your obvious blindness.

    COPENHAGEN IS SYMBOLIC OF HOW USELESS ALL POLITICIANS OF ALL COUNTRIES ARE NOW.

    NOT ONLY HAS DEMOCRACY FAILED BUT SO HAS NATIONALISM.

    THE FAILURE IS ALSO DUE TO THE MEDIA WHO ARE COMPLETELY DISHONEST ABOUT COPENHAGEN

    COPENHAGEN WAS A COMPLETE FAILURE

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