Goth

From Encyclopedia Dramatica

If you're looking for someone who is batshit crazy, please see Psychopath

Standard Issue goths.

A typical Goth. He will spend his entire life in his mother's attic composing great pieces of shitty poetry as he masturbates on his sister's ~~bras~~ yaoi.

Based on a true story

If you see a goth, PUNCH IT!

Goths are gay walking vampires. This particular sub-culture is obsessed with death and vampirism. If one of them offers you a cigarette, it's a trap; it's laced with a sedative, and they will take you back to their lair to drain about 1/8 of your blood, then leave you fatigued and powerless on the side of the road to be raped by a hippy. Known for sending subliminal messages in their symphonic goth metal to encourage them to worship the Dark Lord, they are avid practitioners of satanism, AIDS spreading, Bullshit and being fat. Having been involved in animal sacrifices, blood sacrifice, ritualistic smoking, and even human sacrifice are potential qualifications of being Goth- you don't have to do these, but if you do, it's bad ass by goth standards. In rare cases, they have been spotted on MySpace, normally in a group (or herd/clan). Most goths reach the age of thirteen, find out about the wonders of Slipknot, and proceed to not progress socially for the remainder of their lives. They always maintain that they are 'way maturer than you'.

Those who want to be Goth are generally angsty teens, sixteen year-old attention whores and closeted gay boys who are still in high school. They are obsessed with "dark" music and "dark" poetry, and come in two sizes: morbidly obese and flies-on-the-face Ethiopian-thin.

Want to troll a goth? Ask them why there are never any black (not evil but African), Asian, or Hispanic goths. Or accuse them of being Emo.

Want to troll a troll? Dir en Ghey.

Want to troll a trolled troll? We made it easy. We put a troll in your troll so you can raep while you raep.

Note: Fuck off goth. They don't like it when you rhyme insults at them

A Brief History of Goth

Goths and Vandals once lived in harmony.

The Goths were East Germanic tribes who, in the 3rd and 4th centuries, harried the Roman Empire and later adopted a form of Christianity. In the 5th and 6th centuries, divided as the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, they established powerful successor-states of the Roman Empire in the Iberian peninsula and Italy, respectively (hence the obsession with Romance).

The origins of the Goths and their enemies, the Emi tribe, is described by Michæles Jordanes in his 'Gothica':

"You surely remember that in the beginning I said the Goths went forth from the bosom of the island of Satani with Berik, their king, sailing in only three ships toward the hither shore of Ocean, namely to Gothisatani. One of these three ships proved to be slower than the others, as is usually the case, and thus is said to have given the tribe their name, for in their language Ermohen means slow. These slow people were given so severe a telling off that they started crying and whining; the Emos were born unto the world!" (xvii.94-95)

Alaric, King of the Goths. Not gay.

In the middle ages "goth" became a term to describe something that was gaudy and barbaric. So in essence, the definition of the word has yet to change.

During the same period, the adjective "Gothic" came to denote a kind of Cathedral built by the French (it is therefore logical to assume that a secondary meaning to the word goth is "GAY"). This style emphasized large, open ceilings which would reach upwards towards some dude who doesn't even exist as well as multiple windows allowing in as much light as possible. Contrast this with modern goths and please to be reading the definition of irony. For additional lulz, take into consideration that Gothic was considered a pejorative term, because civilized people thought gothic cathedrals were FUCKING UGLY (as opposed to Romanesque ftw).

Later the goth movement adopted the KISS-metal look, that would later devolve into Black Metal, in the mid-70s. Sometime in the late 70s early-'80s, thanks to Robert Smith, Siouxsie Sioux, Morrissey, and Nik Fiend, it morphed into the "goth" involving red lipstick, big black hair, ankhs, black eyeliner, and mostly black and white clothes. These "old-school goths" typically enjoyed reading, gothic literature in particular, which is how the term was coined to describe them. This style became a fad and therefore uncool for a very long time and once it had died out almost completely, it resurfaced in the early 90s with bands like Marilyn Manson redefining goth and bringing back the style, although it was a little more gay. Things got progressively gayer as metal heads and rivet heads suddenly became goth, and the ridiculous notion that punk, emos, and scenekids can be considered goth as well.

Like everything, the popularity of the goth look and lifestyle waxes and wanes. As a subculture, goth makes a rebirth about every 6 to 8 years, following. The current goth subculture is focused around Synthpop, Industrial, Deathrock, EBM, Gothic Rock, Futurepop, Halloween, BDSM, lustful heathen sex, and the films The Nightmare Before Christmas, Edward Scissorhands, and The Crow.

Types of Goths

In mainstream culture, goths are generally regarded as being all one group. But contrary to popular belief, there is a vast variety of different goths, distinctly known for what makes them annoying.

The important thing to remember is that nobody cares whether you are a LVL 47 BLACK METAL CYBER GOTH WITH TRENCHCOAT GOTH TENDENCIES. You only look like a fucking moron when you say you're a specific type of goth. I have yet to meet an "Industrial Goth" who listens to some actual fucking Industrial.

This is what a Betty Page goth strives to look like. Their efforts are usually cut short due to their obesity. Note the ~~hair cut~~wig.

Some goths are actually mutated fruits.

A beautiful Goth kid .

Goth's Closed, due to Christ.

Anime Nerd Goth: Goths that are overly annoying and love anime. The girls are generally ugly and wear little anime gloves and head bands that they bought at Sun Coast or some other place that sells shit quality anime accessories for disturbingly high prices. They suck cocks.

Betty Page Goths: Known for their love for 1940's pin up girls. They are fuckable. Just be sure to shout "SURPRIZE!!11!!ONE!1" first.

Black Metal Goth:(also known as Tr00 kvlt goths) Known for their misanthropic behavior, wearing shirts with black metal band logos that nobody cares about, and burning emo kids. These goths are equivalent to black metal elitists and alpha goths, but with the corpsepaint or shitloads of eyeliner and goth makeup. Most of these goths are also the otaku version of Cradle of Filth or Immortal. They are also serious business if you mention a black metal band that 5 or more people have heard of and will label as sold out.

Club Goth: Goths that twingle and dark industrial/electronic style concerts in the shadows.

Cyber Goth: Known for being on the computer 24/7 and their electronic dreads. They too are fuckable, but don't get your cock electrocuted.

Emo Goth: Emos that dress like goths but fail at being goth. Or, if you happen to see or meet an emo that acts or dresses 50% goth, you just found one. As big of a bag of failure as they are, they are absolutely in no way, shape, or form goth or emo due to the unholy union of the two common types. It is absolutely common knowledge that no real goth would in any way allow themselves to fuse with emo. The best way to deal with these abortions to nature is to publicly call them a poseur upon every time the subject(s) is/are seen and dispose of them in a somewhat violent nature.

Hot Topic Goth: (also known as: Main Stream Goth, Poseur Goth) Once popular in the late 90's - early 2000's, this style has died dramatically due to the the shift in market at Hot Topic from a goth counterculture thing to a Sceneshow thing market. See Mallgoth.

Metal Goth: Goths that are into that heavy rock shit. Hated by tr00 metalheads. Have a pure, burning hatred for My Chemical Romance and anything emo. They, like raver goths, are fond of baggy black pants, with half his or her own weight in chains. Usually, males wear loads of spiked jewelry, while females generally wear none at all.

Metal Goths are ALWAYS trolls. ~~NO EXCEPTIONS~~ except when they are HAWT!!!11!!one!

"Old School"/Original Goth*: Poor souls that read Neil Gaiman and H.P. Lovecraft and think it's still 1985, reject Hottopic and listen to old goth music like The Cure, Switchblade Symphony, and Siousxie and the Banshees. The kids feel like crying when ever someone calls them emo and are usually really full of their gothness because they

are "what goth originally was" and hate what it has become. Utilizing Aqua Net to maintain their spider-like doos, worshiping Nick Cave as a god, and quoting Alistair Crowley make these guys the coolest goths, they just want to be understood for what they are, but society is too dumb to look at the past. Any other questions, you can look at the Goth Kids from South Park, the most accurate representation of a true goth kid.

Raver Goth: Known for their large, baggy black pants (often with a neon trim and possibly some suspenders if they are cool enough), this style of goth was originally all the goth kids that started to go to raves. Most of these goths have gone from dark to light and are full pacifier suckin' ravers who like upbeat happy-hardcore.

S&M Goth: Attempts to fit into another sub-genre that is even more fucked up than themselves. Identifiable by the streaks of cum on their second-hand latex leggings and on their hoods and they are good for wiping your butt with.

Torrid Goth: Originally a break off of Hot Topic for the more plus size gothic market, the Torrid goth style quickly died when the owners realized no one would buy this shit so they quickly renovated their stores to appeal to a more Classy-Ghettoesque-Baby Phat style and that kinda preppy-punky thing where a fat chick will wear jeans, a tank top, and have her knock-off Chanel purse but considers herself "alternative" because she has hair that is spiked in the back.

Trench Coat Goths: Widely known for wearing the same trench coat everyday, and the trench coat being the only thing they are known for. They wear it all the time, even in summer when it's too fucking hot. Do not mistake their red and sweaty face for hatred of mankind, they're just sweating in their coats, hoping nobody will notice. But everyone always does, and that's why the best reaction is to laugh at them, or throw muffins and beer bottles in the direction of their heads. Favorite activities include school shootings and researching Lolumbine to find out how to be moar trench coat. They like teh Matrix, but they don't understand the story, they just has fascinations for trenchcoatz and hope that people will think they can fight and do gay ass bullet dodging like Neo (Fag no wadaimeen) in order to avoid drive by muffining-or real drive by shootings with real firearms, which no trench coat goth owns. But they can't inspire fear, because they look so funny trying to look all mean while fighting their trench coat which is constantly flying up in their faces when it's windy, or knocking over chip stands at the corner store while trying to look all Sephiroth and ominous. They often get stopped by the cops because they look teh suspicious wearing a trench in the middle of Summer, and then cops just lulz at them when they find out they're not dangerous, and are merely individuals devoid of any real Goth or criminal traits, and are also victims of no life having. The secret shame of the trench coat goth is having absolutely no criminal record and the only time they have one is when they kill themselves after killing a bunch of students in some learning establishment.

Halloween is not a lifestyle.

Mallgoth: Although technically not a Goth, Mallgoths are usually kids ranging from the ages of twelve to fifteen and live at the local Hot Topic. They are commonly known for professing how Goth they are by going on about Slipknot, how they cut themselves at night, and their deep dark depressing poetry that radicates the very foundation of the mortal soul. Most likely to be morbidly obese and only try to be Goth because they're too ugly to fit into any other social clique at school yet are too whiny and uneducated to educate themselves on what Goth actually is.

Kindergoth/Babybat: A younger goth, usually ranging from the ages of twelve to seventeen. While they are less experienced and knowledgeable about what is and isn't goth, they are still learning and on their way to true Gothdom.

Hot Goth: (Also known as "Goth, Larval State") Easily the rarest goth of all, roughly 0.000001% of all goths worldwide are new to the goffick style and do not know how to push these boundaries just yet. This minuscule percentage of goths wears a minimum of makeup, and instead chooses to display their frighteningly white skin au natural. Usually with one or two facial piercings, all are physically and mentally weak and are of course ripe targets for your tender loving care. PROTIP: All Hot Goths are sluts, so even you have a chance with them. WARNING: When Larval Goths are exposed to any of the other kinds of Goth, they transform immediately into what is known as the "Boss Form", more commonly referred to as "Fucking Retarded".

So Serious Goths: Faggots who do not respond well to trolling. I know, how redundant, but these faggy goths are usually pretty old and jaded, being raped by hobos, etc. They don't like mudkipz, nothing is SO cash to them. These goths decide to kill the lulz because they are failures at life.

Aussie Goth: Australian who enjoys editing ED articles to make himself look better. Trolls So Serious Goths. Lieks mudkipz.

The Alpha Goth: Within each town or city there is one of these for each and every form of Goth. They are the boss of all the other Goths and are what the other Goths aspire to be. They spend each ~~day~~ NIGHT coming up with different ways to improve their gothness in order to impress the other Goths because they totally don't care about what other people think.

Rules of Being a Goth

Don't be an attention whore or brag about cutting yourself. You'll eventually get PWNED by a real goth calling you EMO which you failed.

NEVER, under any circumstance, classify yourself as a "GOTH". Make fun of goths to protect your "non-goth" image. If you call yourself a "goth" you are eternally condemned to be a poser.

Call all of your children 'Damien'.

Buy two pets (any animal) and called them Buffy and Angel. (Well, my neighbors did, and they're goths...)

~~Get a tattoo that looks like something from a Tim Burton 'animated' film; i.e Corpse Bride/Nightmare Before Christmas. Because even when your 50 that will still be 'So' cool.~~ This is slowly being done away with, by telling the world that Tim Burton is a pedophile. But don't be like Daisy De La Hoya (VH1's Daisy of Love)and her "really alterna-goth" Nightmare Before Christmas sleeve....which goes great with her fake boobs and blonde hair extensions and puffy lips....NOT GOTH!!!... just lulz on a slutz.

Hang around graveyards or cemeteries with your creepy ~~buddies~~ minions/sex slaves. The more the merrier... or not as the case may be. Bonus for drinking cheap red boxed wine there.

Vehemently insult those who listen to Slipknot, Marilyn Manson, or MCR to feel smug that you are the tr00 gawffikk of darKNEZZ inkarnaete and that NO 14 year old is going to spit on what has been a 20-year slump for you. Including the part where you got AIDS from working the glory hole. Go about your day thinking you're unique - in reality, YOU AIN'T BITCH!

Burn crosses on a nigger's lawn as Rozz Williams has commanded, and eventually commit the act of self-lynching as he has done.

Eat your sorrows away, you fat shit.

Goth Mating Rituals

The goths have a fascinating and complex series of rituals that they must preform in order to attract a mate. They start by applying a thick coat of white foundation on their face, follwed by black lipstick, eyeliner, and occasionally things like tears and other symbols. after dressing up in all black, trench coats, and over 9000 spikes and studs they head out for the club. At the club they fill up on pussy ass girly drinks while sulking in a corner eyeballing that hot person over there that they'd even lack the balls to fap to. From time to time they may pretend to get up and dance to some lame ass song that's supposed to be all dark and moody but in actuallity either sounds like a pig screaming into a microphone or the 'scary' theme of Scooby Doo. This is where the ritual branches off depending on the individual. If she's a hot I'd do her goth chick she'll likely get picked up for degrading sex with jock who just needed to get his hands on some underage goth ass. If she's a fat goth chick she's gonna go home and secretly fap to a romantic comedy starring Dane Cook. A male goth, if on his own he'll go home and attempt autofellatio while listening to Marylin Manson. If he's with some buddies they'll get invariably drunk, confess the strength of their friendship, and head to their mother's basement for a circle jerk and some possible hot 69ing.

Goth Canon

Canon goth music is made up mostly of the genres Goth Rock, Death Rock (more closely related to horror punk), and Darkwave (an offshoot of synthpop). There are other, less popular goth genres and subgenres, including Ethereal, Dark Cabaret, Gothabilly/Psychobilly, Martial Industrial, and Neoclassical. The following is an accurate portrayal of goth music:

Goths are also universally fond of Gothic novels , Vampirefreaks, DarkRaves, Jhonen Vasquez comics, Lenore and GloomCookie, Tim Burton movies, The Crow, and The Matrix. Unless they're stupid "Metal Goths", who hate reading, and get Cs in school as a result.

Goth Fashion

Exercise your pet Goth every day.
what cool goth hasn't been seen trying to get attention doing this

Just as black is the absence of color, Goth is the absence of fashion. Goth fashion has and will always be about black. In order to be truly "Goth," one must wear as much black as possible, regardless of season, weather, time of day, occasion, location, and whether or not you (or your faggot ass goth friends) are surrounded by people.

Pokemon Goth is too cheap for Raven Manic Panic.

Indeed, the more black one wears the more "hardcore" goth one is perceived as being, since only posers would let a 100 degree day prevent them from wearing those baggy black pants and long-sleeve black vinyl shirt to the mall.

The one exception to this is the skin, which must be as pasty white as possible; if a goth accidentally exposes his or her skin to the light, they usually paint their faces with clown pancake makeup before applying their black lipstick and inch-wide streaks of eyeliner. This is not a trivial task, since the pastier and whiter a goth's skin gets, the higher the chances of being ostracized. In order to mitigate potential social rejection (for which most goths secretly pine), goths must be prepared to make up any excuse to explain their obvious aversion of sunlight.

Though the subculture's general style has evolved over the past two decades, it still attempts to embrace a certain attitudinal spookiness. Modern goths, however, tend to dress either like characters from The Matrix (see "Goth Canon", above), or to focus on the more traditional, pseudo-Victorian look (while paradoxically having dramatic flairs of patently punk-styled hair). On the other hand, buying and wearing a Batman costume is just as effective.

Goths like to tell non-goths that they have no style, and if style means AIDS then this is true.

Naming Conventions and Syntax

Wannabe-Goths (a.k.a. "goths") typically choose nicknames for themselves because they're doing it wrong. These "goth" names are serious business, and should you call a "goth" by their real name (which is usually something like Brian Warner or Jeordie) they will get OMG offended. This self chosen name is often melodramatic.

Anyone who calls themselves "Wolf" but isn't a Goth or a Injun is always a pedophile. Every person called Spider is a date-rapist and only has one testicle.

Wannabe-Goths also think that they have to speak a certain way in order to be fit in. Therefore, to the ignorant mainstream, Goth is possibly the only clique to be able to produce TL;DR responses to verbal speech. Basically This cheeseburger is fucking tasty translates to O how I loath thee, fatty demon of cheese and quartered bovine. And yet thou filleth me with such blissful, passionate glee.

Goth Diet

Goths are mustards, and subsist solely on their own feelings of social ostracism. To feed, a goth must try to solicit fear, contempt, or ridicule from mundanes. This causes an avalanche condition in fat goths. Because goths are so non-conformist, typically, back in the 90's, a male goth was skinny while a female goth was fat. However, this changed when Goths became CyberGoths and flooded the Rave scene, thereby losing the weight and gaining the muscle to become the elitist posh bitches/bastards that they are today.

Evolution

Due primarily to the German goths finally getting bored with mincing about like prats in black lipstick, the European scene has been slipping ever more drastically in the direction of candy-raving manic happy shit. In some sort of attempt to combine wearing bright colors and raving on ecstasy with the ethos and aesthetic of the gothic movies they still like to watch, the techno and trance tracks continue to be suspiciously over layed with "sinister" sounding chanting about death, rape, murder and other goth past times.

American Goths are shitting brix because they think these goths are not really goths anymore at all. Though still a pretentious minority, at least these are a step away from boring fucking black-dyed hair, corsets and ugly virginal men in baggy white vampire shirts and capes.

Empty Threats, Lulz and You

“	"[J]ust remember jackholes that when you take the piss out of people like this long enough, you wind up with another Columbine massacre. Just keep it coming..."	„
—Focus, b&

“	You're an idiot if you get on my bad side. I'll get my revenge on you in some way, I can guarantee that to you. I'll confide in sources you don't know existed, I'll take charge and have my own personal army fucking your shit up, ripping you to shreds, letting them have their rightful piece of you if you aren't smart enough to stay on my go0d side. I don't attack innocent people, but if you dare take a hit at me, your shit will get fucked up. Huge reality check for you, and I won't give up until you're so miserable you can't even cry. People know not to make me mad in person, bad things happen. You little internet bitches are just starting to realize. If you give me one piece of information, no matter how miniscule it may seem, I can use that to build a whole web of shit around you, and there is no escape. I won't stop.	„
—IHM, goth and wannabe /i/nsurgent

One unique aspect of goths is that, unlike furries and emos, Goth kids are hilarious when trolled. While furries decide that it's time to get on their fucked-up soapbox and preach about "equality" for bestiality, and emos just cry, Goth kids make some of the longest, funny, and empty threats that you will ever hear. Why, even this page has seen its share of goth angst!

Goth kids seem to think that if you talk like Edgar Allan Poe or H.P. Lovecraft, they'll scare the mundanes into showing them respect. Sadly, IRL, this is not always the way things work out.

However, if you run into the So Serious Goth who is unaffected by your trolling attempts, including copypasta and memes, I suggest you pack your bags and move on, BUT for lulz, always ask why so serious?

An Account

“	I was 19 when I was in a drug rehab for a heroin addiction. We had this guy O.D. in the bathroom, and although the nurses tried to revive him, he died at the scene. "It took the ambulance like 15 minutes to come and get him. They obviously had been made aware that they were just picking up a corpse and took their time. I was able to get a good glimpse of his body for about 4 or 5 good minutes. I marveled at it. I remember the nice, dark place that he was now in, and I looked into his dead eyes. I wanted to be there with him. They left the needle in his arm when they took him away. "For some reason, the officials forgot to remove his shoes from the bathroom. They stayed in there for about 2 days, and I could not stand it any longer. They were a little tight on me, but I got them to fit my feet without socks. I wore them around in the drug rehab for the rest of the time. People noticed, but didn't care. I was in heaven. I wore them everywhere, and walked with a new confidence that I carried part of his dead sole with me. "Those shoes were also cursed. Whilst visiting my grandmother in Maryland a few years later, I was still wearing my shoes of doom. My aunt 'Pat' (alias), got to them, and threw them in the trash compactor because after I bragged about them to my family, it creeped her out. "3 MONTHS LATER, she was herself found dead at home, lying in her bed and my mom got scared and said "You're movin' with your Auntie and Uncle in Bel Air." I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said FRESH and it had dice on the mirror. If anything, I could say that this cab was rare, but I thought "Man, forget it." - "Yo homes, to Bel Air" I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 And I yelled to the cabbie "Yo homes smell ya later." I looked at my kingdom; I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air.	„

Clearly an example for us all.

Another excerpt from a faggotized 14th century Beethoven goth (notice the worship for Satan and the wish for being sodomized by him at the tender age of 12):

“	"To his chamber they sprang with excitement in there thighs to entwine in eternal miraculous play".....A My name is S****r, I’m seventeen years of age. I consider my self to be in league with the GREAT UNHOLY ONE. I am a Satanist, always was and never new it (until my mom got scared and said "You're movin' with your Auntie and Uncle in Bel Air." I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said FRESH and it had dice on the mirror. If anything, I could say that this cab was rare, but I thought "Man, forget it." - "Yo homes, to Bel Air" I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 And I yelled to the cabbie "Yo homes smell ya later." I looked at my kingdom; I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air -a year ago). With that said, I cant deny or brush off for that will be ignorant of me, the magnificent influences Religion has impacted on the past and still shapes the present. I enjoy sophisticated classical music and black metal. My instrument of choice is obviously the piano. With its versatility of mood changing climaxes and striking beauty, it warms my cold heart. My second favorite instrument of soul grasping powers and sensuous sounds to the ears would have to be, hands down the accordion."	„

Pictures

Gallery of Doom and Gloom

Poser Nigger Goth...DO NOT WANT	2 overweight goths from RAdelaide Australia showing the world how its done.	A typical goth whore.	He's NOT having a good day.
Typical male goth.	A typical Goth Couple.	An AZN Goth. (Also is an Insane Clown Posse fan)	When the mockery became too much, Meat Loaf died his hair red and retired to the cemetery for some angst. Jon Stewart lurks in the background to comfort Mr. Loaf.

A faggy AZN Cowboy Dinosaur Goth.	Some are goth well into their 50's.	Ya think ya got enough spikes thar, dude?	Cape Boy: furry, faggot, and all-around snazzy dresser.
Very dark. Very goth. Very wood-paneled.	Delicious goth cake, you must EAT IT!!	Typical anime goth. Thinks she's “Kawaii”, just like all the other fugly anime goths.	I'M SO GOTH I SHIT BATS
GOTHS ARE NOT ABOVE SHITTING FAGGOTS	IMMA CHARGIN' MA RAZ0R.	I would fap to this.	Rebellious goths
YOUR DICK IN MY ASS MAKES ME FEEL SO TRVE !	lulz Everyday is Halloweeeen!	Typical anime-freak goth.	A goth in its natural habitat, typically graveyards and mausoleums, though they have been sighted in their mom's basement or a local Starbucks.
Note how even the Aeris cosplayer has friends compared to both the goth and the KISS member.	A gay goth.	Sexy tiem in da graveyard!!1!	Goths love their contrast settings
Some Goths are also traps.	Typical goth witches.	Stefan Ackermann of Das Ich covers his body with paint during concerts.	Typical CyberGoth; notice the condoms on its head. Also notice that it is Fapanese.
How does he find clothes that big?	WTF		what a pretty flower!
Q: Which one of the 4 tagged people is the Goth?	Goth	Goths = Deathrockers = Losers