Obama Tells Liberals Public Option Doesn’t Have Votes
* In a private meeting at the White House this afternoon, Obama told a roomful of House Dems he doesn’t think the votes are there to pass the public option, and urged them to take the long view and to support the Senate bill as merely the beginning of reform, Dem Rep Lynn Woolsey tells me.
Also: Obama thanked the assembled, mostly liberals, for their ongoing insistence from the left over the months that the bill be improved, Woolsey says. “He thanked us,” she recalled. “He said the bill wouldn’t have been nearly as good as it is if we hadn’t advocated.”
Woolsey, the co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, who was present with around seven or eight other liberals, says Obama compared the health reform fight to the passage of Social Security and Medicare.
“He was very clear: He thought this was as good as it’s going to get,” Woolsey said, referring to the plan to pass the Senate bill and fix it via reconciliation.
“He encouraged us to understand that this is the beginning of health care reform, not the end of it — and that we will fix it later, as we have with Social Security and Medicare,” she continued.
“He doesn’t believe the Senate has 51 votes for the public option,” Woolsey said, characterizing Obama’s remarks to the assembled.
But Woolsey says she’s now a definite Yes on the Senate bill, provided the reconciliation fix is adequate, even if it lacks a public option.
*************************************
Happy Hour Roundup:
* Former No Vote Moves To Undecided:
Dem Rep John Boccieri, who voted No on the health bill last time, is now undecided on the Senate proposal, his office confirms. In a statement emailed my way, Boccieri said:
“After reviewing the President’s health care proposal and watching portions of his bipartisan health care summit, I’m encouraged the proposal contains important provisions to reduce fraud, waste, and abuse and reduce the deficit. I am hopeful that going forward from last week’s summit with bipartisan ideas, we can finally move toward providing affordable, quality coverage for everyone.”
Boccieri represents a new addition to the “undecided” camp, so expect him to be lobbied hard.
* But: Dem Rep Stephanie Herseth-Sandlin, a previous No vote who was thought to be undecided this time, is now a definite No on the Senate bill and reconciliation.
* Cheney Fearmongering Fail: Sam Stein reports that Liz Cheney’s latest McCarthyite smear is even at odds with conservative legal heavyweight Theodore Olsen, who as the lead counsel in Bush v. Gore helped make Dick Veep!
* Relatedly, a nice catch by Spencer Ackerman: The two GOP Senators leading the Cheney-ite smear of the “Al Qaeda seven” actually voted for the act that enshrined the right of terror detainees to defense counsel.
* More: Adam Serwer gets Condolleezza Rice’s former legal adviser to condemn the Cheney smear.
* Amy Sullivan explains why health reform proponents shouldn’t quake with fear every time Bart Stupak opens his mouth.
* Getting the GOP to filibuster in person on the floor may be seductive to some liberals, but it also may be a non-starter.
* CNN fact-checks White House claim that health bill has GOP ideas, calls it (largely) for the White House.
* Obama reads riot act to insurance execs, tells them rate hikes are “unacceptable and unsustainable.”
* And Michael Roston says the Eric Massa mess isn’t really comparable to the Mark Foley scandal, but Dems had damn well deal with it in a hurry anyway or squander what’s left of their moral high ground.
What else is happening?
Update: The Progressive Change Campaign Committee’s Adam Green emails a response to Obama’s claim the votes aren’t there for the public option:
Obama is telling America, “No, we can’t.” But we’ve been showing more and more each day, “Yes, we can” pass the public option. If President Obama doesn’t think the votes exist in the Senate, he needs to name which senators would oppose it. If he can’t or won’t, there’s no reason for House progressives to be part of the White House’s loser mentality.
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Interesting. I thought it was the House, but Obama’s saying it’s the Senate still. I still think it’s the house, but liberals are going to get encouraged by those comments to try to force a vote in the Senate.
Weird. The Round Up was all bolded, but not it’s not.
I don’t “shake with fear every time Stupak opens his mouth”…I shake with anger, if anything. His obsession with fetuses (as John Cole describes it) is disturbing. And I think that it’s unconscionable that one individual’s religious beliefs may hold 30 million people hostage.
Have you all joined the Coffee Party yet? It should be awesome since you get to keep using your CPUSA panchose and tote bags.
Like I said yesterday, Stupak has a funny way of showing that he is “pro life.” Bilgey and I went round and round about this, but I still don’t believe that “all Stupak is doing” is consistent with Hyde. That’s what he claims on his web site, but I don’t see it in these machinations.
Jeez, the week started out so promising, too.
Probably a good thing I won’t be around this weekend.
CT voter, if he was really standing on religious principles and the Senate bill truly didn’t support the Hyde ammendment I could understand his stance. I wouldn’t agree with it as I am pro-choice, but I could understand it. He wants to use insurance reform as a regressive movement for women’s access to legal abortions. It’s C Street all the way and that’s what pisses me off.
“but I still don’t believe that “all Stupak is doing” is consistent with Hyde. That’s what he claims on his web site, but I don’t see it in these machinations.”
I think this is largely about keeping the progressive caucus from voting for the bill.
“rukidding” wondered:
“… I believe even N.R. is on the PTDB bandwagon …”
Nope.
Take out the Corporate mandate and I’d consider supporting it.
That removes two of my ‘dealbreaking’ concerns:
Corporate ransoms and Regressive taxes.
I’d still need to reread the language on restricting women’s freedoms and look into how costly it is for poor Americans to choose an abortion when their state doesn’t even have a clinic….
I’ve been quite explicit that those are my three ‘dealbreaking’ complaints.
Having or not having a Public Option was never a dealbreaker for me, nonetheless, pushing a Public Option through reconciliation would also supplant those first two complaints.
Put me in the FTDB (Fix The Dmn Bill) bandwagon.
Again, as I said yesterday, Stupak = stalking horse for Pitts and the other C Street knaves.
How dumb do you have to be to get worked by Joe Pitts?
All, see the Adam Serwer link I just added — good stuff.
That’s funny because the majority of people support the public option, just not a majority of politicians.
If so, Tena, I don’t think it’s going to work.
lmsinca–yeah, I know he’s not going this because of his religious beliefs–but that’s how it’s alway portrayed. He wants us back in the dark ages. It’s a profound disrespect for the ability of women to make appropriate choices.
“And I think that it’s unconscionable that one individual’s religious beliefs may hold 30 million people hostage.”
Yeah, well it is.
Frankly much about the anti-choice movement holds all of hostage. They get to say where their tax money won’t go and nobody else does.
If we didn’t have a batshit insane SCOTUS, I would feel much better about our right to choose.
Stupak is using the bill to force more restrictions on a woman’t constitutional right to privacy in her own body.
No man in this country ever faces that invasion of privacy and it’s not just any old privacy, it’s about as private as it gets and it’s beyond time for the government to tell the anti-choice people that it’s over for them.
but that’s not going to happen. This is America – everybody in DC is scared spitless of the Big White Jesus.
Let’s see, the Cheneys and the GOP have slandered the legal profession and law enforcement in recent months.
They don’t like Law & Order.
OK Plum Liners, what is the Cheney’s favorite TV show?
The Adam Serwer stuff illustrates, once again, that the Cheney’s are the classless jerks of the Bush Administration.
Cheneys’ (oops)
“… Obama compared the health reform fight to the passage of Social Security and Medicare.”
That’s grossly disingenuous if not an out-right lie.
Neither Social Security nor Medicare were designed to be controlled by PRIVATE for profit Corporations. The current healthcare legislation is specifically designed to be a MASSIVE PRIVATIZATION SCHEME.
It’s bad enough when Obama’s supporters make such an absurdly false comparison, some of them don’t know any better and some clearly don’t mind lying, but Obama KNOWS better.
Obama is pushing a CORPORATE PRIVATIZATION of health care.
Worse, Obama’s Corporate privatization scheme will be used by the right-wing to attempt to privatize Medicare in the future.
OK Plum Liners, what is the Cheney’s favorite TV show?
The History Channel’s portrayal of the Spanish Inquisition.
Since it’s happy hour I’m going off topic. I don’t know if any of you have been following our college protests out here but it’s gotten quite impressive. Someone wondered earlier what all the 18-29 year olds were doing, this is it. Our newest Congressman from CA weighs in with support for the students and solutions.
On a personal note some of you know my youngest is off to grad school in August, she didn’t even bother to apply to any CA colleges even though there were two she was interested in. There’s no upside anymore to attending college in CA so she’s off to CO instead. Take note Andy, I know your daughter was looking into UCLA, fees are up and classes are very difficult to get.
“Other studies show that for every dollar the state invests in UC and CSU, it gets back $5.67 and $4.41 respectively in long term economic output. Taking a long view, higher education in California pays for itself and then some, meaning every qualified student we force away from a higher education is a dent in California’s productivity and output. Taxing students is simply bad fiscal policy. Luckily, there’s a better way.
California can maintain its commitment to higher education without taking a penny more away from students or the general population. California is the only oil-producing state in the nation without an oil severance tax. When the building blocks of our economic development are in jeopardy, why should we let the oil companies take California’s oil for free?”
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/33295
CT, I was going to suggest that they don’t like Law & Order, but they sure like to play at being the Special Victims Unit.
“OK Plum Liners, what is the Cheney’s favorite TV show?”
The “L” Word.
duh
Thanks for that, lms, and for the reminder. There’s LOTS of unrest about this around the country at all levels of higher ed: it’s students but also parents, faculty, and staff. We are damaging a SERIOUS resource in this country and I hope we pull out of it before it hits a critical mass.
“The “L” Word”
Of course, that’s perfect Tena.
O I am digging the campus protests. Nothing kickstarts a movement like campus protests and higher education shouldn’t be something just a privileged few can afford.
Here in CT, lms, we say “Well, it’s bad, but it isn’t as bad as California”.
Faculty here are somewhat demoralized by the coming tsunami of deficit, but we have it better than in California. I would imagine that anyone who teaches at any higher ed public institution in CA has to be completely demoralized at this point. 28 furlough days? I would imagine that people are probably trying to get out of there.
Of course, the problem is that jobs are tough everywhere.
BG, this is what conservatives don’t seem to understand. Investing in our future pays dividends, substantial ones.
Enough of Adam Green already, the guy comes across like a weasel. We all want the public option but if the votes aren’t there then the votes aren’t there. Grow the phuuck up already.
That’s why we really ought to call them reactionaries. Hell, if they were trying to “conserve” culture I’d be more inclined to think they had something to listen to.
The right in this country, and this makes them distinct from Europe (mostly), is all about selfishness. They didn’t read Rand very closely, but they got that part well enough.
CT, my other daughter teaches at a community college but can’t get anything more than one class to teach right now so it’s pretty discouraging. She won’t be able to pay her student loans off with one class. She took a second job editing but it’s still barely enough to live on. She is actually looking into leaving the state for greener pastures. She is amazingly talented and got her Master’s from one of the best in the State but is still having trouble finding full time work.
lms, what subject?
Obama’s attempt at crippling the Public Option he promised to create is meant to protect Regressive-Dems and their Corporate puppeteers.
Some of the Senators who have failed to step up:
Sen. Daniel Akaka HI Unknown
Sen. Max Baucus MT Unknown
Sen. Evan Bayh IN Unknown
Sen. Mark Begich AK Unknown
Sen. Robert Byrd WV Unknown
Sen. Thomas Carper DE Unknown
Sen. Kent Conrad ND Unknown
Sen. Christopher Dodd CT Unknown
Sen. Byron Dorgan ND Unknown
Sen. Russell Feingold WI Unknown
Sen. Kay Hagan NC Unknown
Sen. Tom Harkin IA Unknown
Sen. Herb Kohl WI Unknown
Sen. Mary Landrieu LA Unknown
Sen. Blanche Lincoln AR Unknown
Sen. Claire McCaskill MO Unknown
Sen. Bill Nelson FL Unknown
Sen. Ben Nelson NE Unknown
Sen. Mark Pryor AR Unknown
Sen. John Rockefeller WV Unknown
Sen. Jon Tester MT Unknown
Sen. Mark Warner VA Unknown
Sen. Jim Webb VA Unknown
http://whipcongress.com
Some of the more disappointing names are:
Christopher Dodd
Russell Feingold
Tom Harkin
John Rockefeller
To crib a Dkos line, all four of them are apparently take the position: “I’m strongly for the public option except by the only means available for it’s passage.”
I’d thought some of the others claimed to be for the Public Option as well, or maybe that was only when it seemed like it would never pass….
And what is Hawaii’s Senator Daniel Akaka doing on that list? Hawaii already has a very successful government run health care plan, why is he voting against that for everyone else?
lmsinca–I think what’s going to happen in higher ed is that institutions are going to try and eliminate as many fulltime positions as possible, and more and more people are going to be forced to work parttime. Some of my parttime colleagues now work at 4 different institutions just to make ends meet.
And they get no healthcare or retirement benefits from any of the institutions, of course.
On the other hand, maybe CA will start offering early retirement deals to those full professors pulling down relatively big salaries, and something will open up for your daughter.
“There’s no upside anymore to attending college in CA.”
I know I’ll be corrected, but public 2-year and 4-year universities in California are a great deal and offer a superb education!
sbj, the correction only takes the form of “at this rate, not for long.”
First Read catches Boehner in a lie (I know, not so tough, but still):
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/04/2219466.aspx
“BGinCHI | March 4th, 2010 at 06:12 pm
That’s why we really ought to call them reactionaries. ”
The really are.
@BG: “sbj, the correction only takes the form of “at this rate, not for long.”
Perhaps, but I’m betting that we place the blame in different areas!
sbj, you mean besides dwindling resources? Care to enlighten me?
BG, her Masters is in Fine Arts-Photography/Media. She’s had several shows since graduation and they’re looking at her work at the LA County Museum of Art for a show, she sort of pioneered a new genre while in school. She graduated from Cal Arts, the old Disney School of Animation.
We’re a diverse group here, my son has an MBA from UCR and owns his own micro-brewery out in Temecula. We also put my niece and nephew through college as we became their legal guardians when they were 12 and 15 respectively. We lost my niece in 2008, her degree was in Biology and my nephew has his MFA as well and teaches in San Diego. He’s a little more established as both an artist and teacher than our daughter as he’s 5 years ahead of her.
“and they’re looking at her work at the LA County Museum of Art for a show, she sort of pioneered a new genre while in school”
Jeeeeezuz – you have the most awesome kids! That’s fabulous.
“Obama reads riot act to insurance execs, tells them rate hikes are “unacceptable and unsustainable.””
And then he shook his finger and frowned with disappointment…
… and that means absolutely nothing. Just like it meant absolutely nothing to the Banksters that Obama shook his finger at.
On the other hand, a STRONG Public Option would make a radical difference in a positive direction.
Instead, Obama is enabling the Corporate-insurance-leaches to forcibly privatize the insurance of 30 million new customers (with a Gubmint guarantee that those customers will be profitable, no less).
That will allow those Corporate-insurance-leaches to buy up any needed politicians that might want to “fix” the system in any way that might be discomforting to those Corporate-insurance-leaches.
Give it a few years to simmer and those same Corporate-insurance-leaches’ puppet politicians will be explaining how privatizing Medicare through Obama’s Corporate friendly system is a Good Thing (TM).
lms, that’s always a challenging field to get teaching work in. It’s grown in a number of places, but those will never be big depts. It’s hard to do art and supplement it with teaching. I wish her the best of luck.
Temecula is pretty cool with the wine and other stuff going on out there. Can you tell us the name of the brewery?
@BG: “sbj, you mean besides dwindling resources? Care to enlighten me?”
Please enlighten me as to what you mean by dwindling resources.
California’s budget problems are too numerous to discuss here in any meaningful way, aren’t they? If I had to simplify and generalize – which I do not want to do – I’d say that CA state government is dysfunctional and tries to provide too much.
CT, yeah my daughter with asthma is the artist/teacher and has no medical insurance. The school is matching her retirement contributions though. They really like her there and hopefully at some point they’ll be able to offer her more but she’s not counting on it. I don’t think it’s just education that’s going with more part-time and contract work though. That’s one of the reasons we really need to pass HCR, more and more people will be without every day, month, year until we do.
sbj, there’s no need to generalize about the state. In nearly every state over the past 10-20 years, state funding for higher ed is shrinking. In man places dramatically. There isn’t anything controversial about that.
The question is what have universities done in response and how do they find sources of funding elsewhere?
Long story short, even before CA was in this much trouble, higher ed was shrinking. Less so in CA than other places, but that trend is separate from state budget woes.
BG, he started brewing at Stone and worked there for a couple of years as an apprentice then started his own, just a small family owned place but he has several restaurants he brews for and we get awesome samples.
lms, I await the Plum Line Porter.
Talk to y’all later, need to go make a pot of soup, it’s cold today. LOL
lmsinca – yep.
I heard encouraging news at lunch. My sister in law’s husband owns a Chrysler dealership in a medium small town in another state. Last year things were really bad for them. My sister in law said things are turning around.
NR “That’s grossly disingenuous if not an out-right lie.” I believe the parallel is that social security had deep flaws (blacks and farm workers excluded, for example) when it was first passed, but was improved over the years. This bill could be vastly improved if a robust public option/medicare buy in is added later, don’t you agree? But, nothing can be added on if this bill dies.
Personally I am all for pushing an amendment for a robust public option/medicare buy in via reconciliation every year until it passes. As the problems with the current HCR become more apparent (insurers/providers continuing to excalate costs, etc.), the robust public option/medicare buy in will look more and more inevitable. But without the structure of HCR to hang it on, (universal coverage/individual mandate), it will be way harder to get the robust public option/medicare buy in passed. We have to start somewhere.
@lmsinca: Can you suggest to your brewmeister that he create a gluten-free beer?
Oh and thanks Tena, they all worked really hard.
Will do sbj.
Since it was mentioned:
http://CoffeePartyUSA.com
Sounds more caffeinated than the laid back DrinkingLiberally.com
“I believe the parallel is that social security had deep flaws (blacks and farm workers excluded, for example) when it was first passed, but was improved over the years. This bill could be vastly improved if a robust public option/medicare buy in is added later, don’t you agree? But, nothing can be added on if this bill dies.”
co-sign.
Gosh Obama won’t tolerate health insurance rate increases because the 3.3 percent average profit margin of the health insurance industry is just obscene I suppose. Somehow the profit margins of all those industries (many, if not most) that exceed 3.3 percent are not equally obscene right?
(Sarc off)
Change of situation, change of attitude (AKA acceptable hypocricy since it’s politics).
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hbeNe0mruBTscY0g3O6cbMw7K4bQD9E83P3O0
“what conservatives don’t seem to understand. Investing in our future pays dividends, substantial ones.”
You lose right-wingers as soon as you say “our future”.
Listening to some right-wingers you’d think Communities were Communist enclaves.
beyond left:
If you are interested:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/terrorism/the-morning-plum-82/comment-page-3/#comment-200375
Yay! Adam Green responded again. He says here, the WH has a “loser mentality”, when on Salon.com, he calls the President “too weak to stomach”. He’s not going to be content until Obama shivs Lincoln, Pryor, Warner and Webb and destroys ANY chance of getting his health bill passed.
Good grief Adam green, get some anger management okay?
@Greg
Everyone is reporting what Pres. Obama told progressives…but is COMPLETELY ignoring the meeting he had an hour later with centrists.
Is there any way you can get some news on what he told THEM?
Yes, subsidizing people’s MFAs is such a great investment. Especially when we factor in the instructors’ generous compensation and fantasyland pension. Continually amused whenever the topic here turns to dollars and cents.
And if you are so worried about whether there is enough money for abortions, why don’t you cut out the middleman and send the money there yourself? Oh that’s right, because tena isn’t worried so much about her tax dollars as she is about getting her filthy paws on mine.
What Obama said:
“I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits — either now or in the future.”
(Remarks by President Obama to a Joint Session of Congress, September 9, 2009″
What Paul Ryan said:
“This afternoon Budget Committee Ranking Member Ryan walked through why the bill put forward by Democrats FAILS the Presidents deficit test.
–
The Majority Leader said the bill scores as reducing deficit by $131 billion over the next 10 years.
First a little bit about CBO: I work with them every single day; very good people; great professionals. They do their jobs well. But their job is to score what is placed in front of them. And what has been placed in front of them is a bill that is fill of gimmicks and smoke and mirrors.
Now what do I mean when I say that?
First off, the bill has ten years of tax increases and ten years of Medicare cuts to pay for six years of spending. The true ten year cost when subsidies kick-in? $2.3 trillion.
The bill is full of gimmicks that more than erase the false claim of deficit reduction:
- $52 billion of savings is claimed by counting increased Social Security payroll revenues. These dollars are already claimed for future Social Security beneficiaries, and claiming to offset the cost of this bill either means were double-counting or were not going to pay Social Security benefits.
- $72 billion in savings is claimed from the CLASS Act long-term care insurance. These so-called savings are not offsets, but rather premiums collected to pay for future benefits. Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad has called these savings, A ponzi scheme that would make Bernie Madoff proud.
Additionally, the nearly half-trillion dollars in Medicare cuts cannot be counted twice. Medicare is in dire need of reform in order to make certain that we can ensure health security for future seniors.
Using Medicare as a piggy bank, it raids a half trillion dollars from retirees health coverage to fund the creation of another open-ended health care entitlement.
The Presidents chief Medicare actuary says up to 20% of Medicare providers may go bankrupt or stop taking Medicare beneficiaries as a result. Millions of seniors who have chosen Medicare Advantage will lose the coverage they now enjoy.
Objections to the policy aside, you cannot use these savings twice to both extend the life of Medicare and to pay for other spending. The half-trillion dollars in Medicare cuts are either to extend the programs solvency or to reduce the cost of this deficit but not both as its authors claim.
When you strip away the double-counting of Medicare cuts, the so-called savings from Social Security payroll taxes and the CLASS Act, the deficit increases by $460 billion over first ten years and $1.4 trillion over second ten years.
Finally, one of the most expensive and most cynical of the gimmicks applies to Medicare physician payments, the so-called Doc Fix.
By your own estimate, the Doc Fix adds an additional $371 billion to the cost of health care reform. With the price tag beyond what most Americans could handle, the Majority decided to simply remove this costly provision and deal with it in a stand-alone bill.”
Ignoring this additional cost does not remove it from the backs of taxpayers. Hiding spending doesnt reduce spending.
Since he was mentioned, Adam Green was cofounder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee (PCCC), which I guess makes him an obvious target for the regressives to start pre-emptively smearing.
http://BoldProgressives.org
PCCC is also pushing WhipCongress.com to count up the votes for the Public Option through reconciliation which quickly went from a handful of supporters to 35 Senators and 120 Representatives.
# actuator | March 4th, 2010 at 06:56 pm
Gosh Obama won’t tolerate health insurance rate increases because the 3.3 percent average profit margin of the health insurance industry is just obscene I suppose. Somehow the profit margins of all those industries (many, if not most) that exceed 3.3 percent are not equally obscene right?
(Sarc off)
…………………….
The Health Insurance Cabel is not deserving of making one cent in profits.
They are a giant Ponzi scheme that rips of healthy people. They are not in the medical profession. They do not apply even a single bandage to anyone. The are vampire scum, that are living of the fears of the healthy, and dumping the higher risk members into their Rescission Gulag.
Liam,
The current tax structure of the United States coupled with the massive government spending started by Bush and magnified by Obama is an even bigger Ponzi scheme. The only question is how long will it take before the source of investors (taxpayers) is insufficient to make the payouts required to make it work.
actuator, the link you provided does not show a change of attitude or hypocrisy on Obama’s part. Did you actually read it?
And how could Obama anticipate the scorched earth policy that the repiglicans took on every proposal he put forward. Using procedural tactics to kill and delay legislation is double what it was during the last repiglican controlled senate. More than 100 appointments are being held up for no reason whatsoever except to hamstring the Obama administration. In 2001-2, after Bush actually lost the popular vote and only got in because of SCOTUS intervention, the dems had only held up 1/2 as many appointments, many for competence and policy related reasons. Given the rank incompetence of many bush appointees (Heck of a job Brownie, Goodling’s ideological justice dept civil service hiring, etc) I would say that the dems should have held up more.
And its not just the percent profit but the total amount of profit that is important. Casinos only keep a tiny percentage of the take, but they make plenty of money of that. Insurance companies also operate with virtual monopolies in most markets, meaning they have no reason to become more efficient, if they can just pass on costs to customers. The 3.3% is net profit as well. So after paying obscene salaries and bonuses to executives, spending 100s of millions of dollars in lobbying (bribing) state and federal officials, and spending more millions on advertising, what is left over is 3.3%. I would like to know what their profit margin is before these lavish and unnecessary expenses.
@NR – I’m not smearing him. I just think he’s certifiable. And I’m not sure I like being called a “regressive”. Make no mistake we must go forward, it’s just not going to be done with a public option. You act as if that 35 number of Senators is real. It’s not. Ask Ezra Klein and various other health policy reporters. Further, I’ll be convinced when I see Mark Pryor and Mark Warner, neither of which you’re going to get.
Right wingers keep spouting misleading profit numbers for insurance companies and artfully edit out the MILLION dollar bonuses and BILLION dollar profit margins.
And for what? Pushing numbers around and doing their best to avoid payouts.
Consider what the Corporate predators spend on before officially declaring a “profit”: Million dollar junkets to exotics travel locations, private planes, obscene bonuses, and an army of Corporate Bureaucrats whose single job is to prevent customers from receiving their insurance benefits.
And then there is obscene nonsense like this:
“United Healthcare’s CEO Receives 1 Billion Dollar Bonus.” … “I have nothing against capitalism and a free market society, but when a company denies experimental treatments time and time again… There is no need or excuse for a bonus of this size!”
http://digg.com/business_finance/United_Healthcare_s_CEO_Receives_1_Billion_Dollar_Bonus
Corporate-medical-insurance = Moochers, Looters, and Predatory Leaches.
“the Doc Fix adds an additional $371 billion to the cost of health care reform”
We would have had to pay for it anyway. Whether it’s in the hcr bill or not.
Facts is facts. Look at this list. Are there any other moocher, looters and predatory leaches here?
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-insurance-industry-ranks-86-by.html
@scott c: I don’t have time to refute all of your responses, but suffice it to say they are less than pursuasive.
“Exactly! If their costs were higher (ie they spent more resources) they would have fewer quantity and quality control problems. That was precisely my point…it controls cost at the expense of supply.”
My point is that the NHS could alleviate all of the alleged queues for treatment by increasing their expenditures by 20% and Britain would STILL SPEND 40% LESS THAN THE US FOR UNIVERSAL CARE.
Gee the population of GB is 20 percent of that of the U. S. They ouught to spend a lower percentage than that.
Well I’m happy to say that one of the terrorists who wanted to attack the NYC subway just pleaded guilty:
Imam pleads guilty to lying to feds investigating terrorism plot against NYC subway
An imam has pleaded guilty to charges he lied to FBI agents investigating a foiled suicide bomb plot against New York City.
Prosecutors say Afzali told Zazi that he was under surveillance when he arrived in New York in September.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2010/03/imam_pleads_guilty_in_nyc_terror_case.php?ref=fpa
Sounds like excellent excellent policework if you ask me. All those involved should be congratulated for helping save American lives.
Criminal — not military — investigation stopped the attack and resulted in two guilty verdicts. That’s what I like to see.
“Chris A. | March 4th, 2010 at 07:23 pm
@NR – I’m not smearing him. I just think he’s certifiable. And I’m not sure I like being called a “regressive”. M”
Well you aren’t alone – I’m the Queen of Mean Regressives.
And a Corporatist.
you’re not in bad company.
“Well I’m happy to say that one of the terrorists who wanted to attack the NYC subway just pleaded guilty:”
I’m frakking loving this – I haven’t seen so many terrorists arrested, charged, being brought to trial, smoked out, ever.
This administration is taking this more seriously than any other ever has – every week we arrest one or kill one or one is getting to be tried and another is already been sentenced = wow.
Ethan – it just continues to makes our case that terrorists are criminals and making them into soldiers just glorifies their murders.
Treating this as an international criminal problem works.
beyond:
My point is that the NHS could alleviate all of the alleged queues for treatment by increasing their expenditures by 20%
Then why don’t they?
I keep waiting for someone on the Dem side to seriously refute Paul Ryan’s claims about the cost of HCR. It seems I’m going to be left waiting a long time, since apparently even Obama has little to say.
Since an article from AssPresser Calvin Woodward was mentioned, just google his name and look what pops up:
The right wing NewsBusters.org loves him.
A left-wing blog was so contemptuous of him that they started keeping track of his more egregious articles.
FAIR.org has: “Calvin Woodward’s Fractured Fact-Check Strikes Again” and “Another Embarrassing Factcheck From Calvin Woodward.”
And a blogger on TPM asks: “Calvin Woodward: Insurance Industry Who[]re Or The Biggest Insurance Industry Who[]re At The AP?”
http://www.google.com/search?q=CALVIN+WOODWARD
Just to yank your chain about AGW NR. Climategate keeps acomin’.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/memo/climatedata/uc5502.htm
Yeah Tena, they’re doing their job. Amazingly amazingly well. Every comment against our American professionals hurts our country’s morale regardless of politics.
But the crazy thing which I don’t get, and I don’t know how much time some of these lying trolls have spent in New York City, but for all its problems and such, it’s an amazing place. And it is, and has been, the prime target for terrorism in the U.S. I don’t know how many of these right-wing ideologues in the blogosphere, and in Congress for that matter, hang out in NYC; but every time they open their gdmn mouths against this administration on terror and against the “methods” of investigating and prosecuting without the use of extreme, deadly, sinister, coercion; it confirms their thoughts about us as a country and gives the terrorists that much more of an incentive to try again. In NYC. In D.C. Both places. And the right takes a hard line. It literally makes me sick.
Buuuuuut, lest I end on a sour note, can you believe how they’re actually bagging these Taliban guys? That other guy they nabbed today was big. And now this guilty plea for the second guy in the Zazi case. Huge.
I’m prolly out for the night. Gnight ya’ll.
One love Ethan.
And all the scaredy cats who have anxiety closets full of terrorists live in Kansas and North Dakota. You know – the real targets.
@ scott c:
“For example, in the US women are regularly screened for breast cancer starting at age 40, and every 2 years thereafter. In the UK’s NHS, regular screening does not start until 50 and is done only every 3 years. ”
Well, this only is meaningful for women that ALREADY HAVE INSURANCE or can afford the screening on their own. Women who don’t have insurance DON’T GET ANY SCREENING, while all women in Britain get screening. I believe that the age 50 starting for screening was recently shown to have a net positive effect for women because the false positives and resultant treatment when screening starts at 40 is worse for women’s health than starting at 50. Again, a modest bump in funding for the NHS might equalize screening options and would still make it way less costly than what we pay here, AND WE DON’T HAVE UNIVERSAL COVERAGE.
“Either the labor must move to the US” So what is wrong with importing doctors to the us to increase supply and drive down prices? Supply and demand.
“But the environment you describe would be better for the doctor” Read the post. Its better for the doctor to get keep the current system that allows s/he to get more money per patient in a private practice, even with the increased costs of maintaining an office, but it is far less efficient for the society as a whole to have the duplication of office functions for each doctor or practice.
“No. It translates into a refusal to describe a wealth transfer program as “insurance”. Socialized medicine is not insurance. It is wealth management/transferance via government.” Hey, call it what you want. Universal coverage spreads costs over the largest risk pool. Everyone gets health care, that is the goal, not maximizing actuarial benefits for private insurers.
“I am a market guy, and you are correct that doctors are worth what people are willing to pay. Which is why your original statement was so obviously non-sensical. How could US doctors be overpaid if someone is willing to pay them?”
As I said in my post, US doctors are drastically overpaid compared to doctors in other modern democracies.
Tena:
One love Ethan.
What does that mean?
Maybe Tena’s in Fantasy Land.
“Chris A.”, calling the cofounder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee “certifiable” absolutely earns you the moniker “regressive”
If you don’t like it take your own suggestion and try “anger management”.
But don’t worry, “Tena”, who spent months “punching hippies” to prove she was the Mean Girl Queen Bee has welcomed you with open arms.
Look, I get it, Obama’s Leader Followers feel a need to smack down actual progressive voices even while Obama charts an increasingly regressive path.
But let’s be clear, Obama does exhibit a “loser mentality”.
It’s bad enough that Obama feels a need to perpetually compromise with uncompromising Republicans, but Obama compromises with himself.
Ultimately actual progressives need to recognize that Obama is working AGAINST progressive’s interests.
Sadly, actual progressives also need to recognize that Obama’s Leader Followers will smear them with words like “certifiable” if they speak out against Obama’s regressive policy choices.
I’m not really sure how much stock to put in some of this but I find it incredibly interesting. It’s quite possible, according to Jon Walker, that we may get a reconciliation bill only, if the House cannot pass the Senate bill, we could be faced with a new bill and BTW a much different bill.
This is from Stupak:
“I was just talking with some of the leadership folks here earlier this morning at the Energy and Commerce committee and we don’t necessarily have to vote on the Senate bill. As Anthony [Weiner] said. I don’t think they have ten votes for the Senate bill. But during the reconciliation process this is where the president can put his proposal or a single-payer, whatever the president is going to put forward and that we can make that part of reconciliation that would be the vehicle we would use…”
This from Jon Walker:
“I’ve outlined several different strategies to achieve health care reform using reconciliation (here, here, here). Most of the strategies for expanding coverage using a reconciliation bill would rely heavily upon expanding existing public health programs like Medicaid, Medicare, and SCHIP. It is interesting that Stupak brings this up because dealing with Stupak’s concerns about abortion coverage on the new exchanges has been one of the biggest stumbling blocks to passage of health care reform legislation. Since the current public programs are all covered by the Hyde language, which Stupak supports, he, in theory, should have no abortion-related issues with simply expanding public programs.
Stupak’s statement might be one of the first signs that Democrats are concluding they simply can’t get the votes for the Senate health care bill, but can’t walk away from health care reform empty handed. A new, clean, and easy to explain reconciliation-only bill is one potential political solution.”
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/04/bart-stupak-“i-dont-think-they-have-ten-votes-for-the-senate-bill”-open-to-reconciliation-only-route/
“Chris A.”, I don’t read Ezra Klein much now that he’s a Corporate insurance salesperson. Ezra may be working overtime to sell Corporate-insurance but I’m not buying.
And it’s not the 35 Senators that signed on to pushing a Public Option through reconciliation that I’m focusing on, it’s the 20+ “Democratic” Senators that haven’t.
I’m especially offended by the Dem Senators who claimed to be for a Public Option but now that reconciliation is a clearly available route suddenly they won’t support it.
Though in one area I partially agree with you, getting the House to sign onto a (preferably strong) Public Option through reconciliation will be more difficult than getting the Senate to sign on, but part of that is because it will require the Senate to show some leadership.
And let’s be clear:
If the Senate can’t show some leadership NOW it certainly won’t later. So if the Senate doesn’t step up NOW kiss the “fix” “later” fantasy goodbye.
I can only imagine the frenzy of outrage if a Republican DOJ hired a bunch of fancy lawyers who had volunteered their time to defend accused Klan terrorists. Or even who volunteered to defend abortion protesters.
And I can only imagine the frenzy if DOJ refused to affirm that the lawyers were not working on those issues at DOJ.
I suspect you would have a problem with that, Greg, not to mention recognize the potential ethical conflict.
“In a private meeting at the White House this afternoon, Obama told a roomful of House Dems he doesn’t think the votes are there to pass the public option, and urged them to take the long view and to support the Senate bill as merely the beginning of reform…”
———————————————————–
Well, duh.
———————————————————–
PCCC: “…If President Obama doesn’t think the votes exist in the Senate, he needs to name which senators would oppose it…”
———————————————————–
What, so you boneheads can run more attack ads against them in their home states? That really has to be the stand-out favorite for single most counter-productive Progressiverer FAIL in this whole saga (so far). But of course PCCC will still have to share the award with DFA and MoveOn. For the record though, I seriously doubt they have the votes to pass it in the House either.
re: Corporate insurance moocher, looters and predatory leaches
See: UnitedHealth Group CEO Bill McGuire crime
http://www.google.com/search?q=UnitedHealthcare+ceo
UnitedHealth Group CEO Bill McGuire looted over a BILLION dollars, that was a BILLION dollars that didn’t go to paying off a LOT of customers insurance claims.
Right wingers justifications for these moochers, looters, and predatory leaches illustrates a profound moral bankruptcy of McGuire, his defenders, and for the country that allows these predators to continue to loot our healthcare system.
This is the kind of predaciousness Obama is rewarding with his Corporate welfare gift.
Forcing Americans to pay these predators ransoms is sick.
What does that mean?
Apparently, it is interchangeable with “Frak you” and “Frak the ratwing.” And “g****mn you.”
To which the appropriate response is “Word.”
Simple question for you NR. Was what Mcguire did consistent throughout the industry?
BTW, NR if that is a consistent industry practice at the incredible amount he obtained please provide sources.
beyond:
Well, this only is meaningful for women that ALREADY HAVE INSURANCE or can afford the screening on their own.
Incorrect. To quote from the article:
But five-year survival rates for all forms of the disease – including the most advanced – stand at 85 per cent in the U.S and just under 74 per cent in the UK.
This means all women who get breast cancer are included in the stat, regardless of what stage it was diagnosed (ie even those who did not have early screening), and regardless of whether they had insurance or not. The 5 year survival rate is higher in the US than in the UK. The UK may “control costs” but at a cost in terms of results.
So what is wrong with importing doctors to the us to increase supply and drive down prices?
Nothing at all. It’s just expensive to do so.
Its better for the doctor to get keep the current system that allows s/he to get more money per patient in a private practice, even with the increased costs of maintaining an office…
I know you say this, but I am asking you how it is so. If operating a sole practice has greater overhead and more expensive malpractice insurance than a group practice, how could it be that a doctor can make more money as a sole practitioner than in a group practice? There is nothing about a group practice that forces him to charge less, so he could charge the same, have lower costs, and make more money in a group practice. No?
Universal coverage spreads costs over the largest risk pool.
Wrong. In a universal coverage system, there is no such thing as a risk pool. Risk is wholly and entirely irrelevant. All eventualities will be paid for by tax dollars, so risk profiles mean nothing. Insurance companies need to run actuarial analyses in order to make sure they are charging each person enough, in line with his or her risk profile, to cover future contracted costs. The government doesn’t need to do this because it doesn’t matter. If its costs exceed its revenues, they just raise taxes, print money, or cut services.
As I said in my post, US doctors are drastically overpaid compared to doctors in other modern democracies.
As I said my original, how do you know the others are not underpaid?
“Yes, subsidizing people’s MFAs is such a great investment.”
Baby, if that was directed at me, you are under the mistaken assumption that either my daughter’s or nephew’s MFA’s were subsidized. They both paid very dearly for them and will be paying for them for years to come. All five of the kids we helped get through college received nominal scholarship or grant money based either on financial consideration or academic prowess, but believe me when I say we all paid through the nose for them in the long run. We’re still paying off undergraduate loans for the two youngest and my daughter with the MFA owes about $60K for her master’s.
The only one who fared well in the monetary department was the youngest, and only because she graduated at the top of every class and has been sought after because of her ability to accomplish the research requirements which have all been paid for by private enterprise, not the government.
When I say education is an investment in the future, I don’t mean that it should be free, just accessible and hopefully affordable. In CA, this is becoming more and more difficult for people of modest means and consequently we are setting ourselves up for a generation of undereducated underachievers. I don’t really see how that bodes well for the future, do you?
It amazes me how much vitriol Liz Cheney has directed toward the DOJ lawyers who previously defended Guantanamo detainees as being pro-terrorist. This is beyond absurd. The only logical conclusion to this scorched earth policy is to condemn everyone who was not part of the Bush/Cheney administration. It is an unsustainable argument even among their own side.
Good for Ted Olson to exercise a voice of reason on the right. The Cheney’s are growing increasingly shrill by the day and appear to be even more isolated than ever.
However, I’m sure one more voice of reason won’t stop their monotonous revisionist apologia trope.
qb:
To which the appropriate response is “Word.”
Hah. That was my next question..what the hell does “word” mean?
I’m going to drop in a piece by Digby on the Cheney/Kristol ad…
“It’s another example of the patented “I know you are but what am I” routine which the Republicans have perfected over the years. This one is obviously designed to create some equivalency in the minds of citizens between the heinous torture advocates Yoo, Bybee, Addington etc, and defense lawyers who, by definition, very often defend guilty clients. Indeed, it’s a cornerstone of our judicial system. I assume the right wing radio talkers will spin the idea that these defense lawyers are terrorist sympathizers hard and before long, we’ll have full fledged debates about whether or not they should be disbarred. At that point, most Americans will tune out and say “they’re all scum” and that will be that.
But the larger point is that this kind of argument, however cynically designed to cover Dick Cheney’s historical legacy, results in the same ripping of the social contract as the torture “controversy.” Over time a fair number of people begin to believe that something we were all taught in grade school as an absolute — a constitutional right to counsel — is controversial. And another piece of our consensus about what the constitution means will have been destroyed (by some very creepy authoritarians, I might add.)
And the greatest irony of all this is that for decades one of the most famous screeching critics of what they used to call moral relativism was none other than Lynne Cheney. Shamelessness and hypocrisy doesn’t even begin to explain it.”
Too bad the 45,000 who are going to die can’t “take the long view.” But who cares, they’re peasants anyhow.
Good night Tena. Got to get up early and GTT. Since your from there you should know what it means.
“Actuator”, there is a point where making excuses for moral bankruptcy IS moral bankruptcy.
Corporate-insurers provide NO service other than money changing.
They don’t apply bandages, they don’t do surgery, they don’t clean bedpans.
Corporate insurers just loot their customers by failing to provide them healthcare.
Every dollar denied a Customer in healthcare is a dollar a Corporate-insurance CEO puts in their pocket.
Consider how many customers the CEO Corporate bureaucrats had to RATION to make these millions last year:
http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/05/20/health-insurance-ceos-total-compensation-in-2008
The Corporate-insurance industry IS the “Death Panel”, they make money off of Americans pain and suffering.
While right wing predators can justify the sick Corporate-insurance industry, anyone with a conscience would rather it be completely replaced with a healthier progressive solution.
“word” simply means “I heard you”
Why did Social Security not get an increase?? Read this one!
According to the Trustees for the Social Security Administration, ” THERE WILL NOT BE A COST OF LIVING INCREASE FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS IN SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS. ADDITIONALLY THEY WILL RAISE YOUR CO-PAY FOR YOUR RX MEDICARE BENEFITS ” !
They, the Congress ( BOTH ” REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS TOGETHER “) say no increase is warranted because of the losses in gross national product and other cute things..
NOW HERE SPORTS FANS THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL FLIP YOU OUT!! –
THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION DOLLARS– 24,000,000.00 DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC
MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR
CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS !!
THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS and I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE……………
” THIS MONEY WILL COME FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED FROM WITHHOLDING ” COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 in
SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY”
Please pass this to ALL your friends and have them “PROTEST TO THE IDIOTS WE ELECTED TO CONGRESS ” who by the way, have just voted themselves ANOTHER 3% SALARY INCREASE!!!
Just another reason government can’t be trusted to keep their promises and spend the peoples money in the best interests of the people. The truth is, since it is not their money they could less whether it is wasted and have a lot of incentive to spend the money on what they want and need, not what the people want and need.
Okay, it’s official now, no one can continue to blame the liberals (progressives) if the Senate bill does not pass the House. They have accepted the President’s assurances, the only ones holding the bill hostage are the blue dogs and the “sepsis” stupaks. What are we going to do about it now that we can’t blame progressives anymore?
“People still have a problem being truthful about what’s stopping the House from passing a health care bill tomorrow. House liberals have brooked every compromise, made every harsh vote, lost virtually every big fight, and still backed the bill. Raul Grijalva, who just, um, a day ago talked about leaning no on the final passage, heard enough happy talk from Barack Obama to flip right back to support today. That was never, ever in doubt. They’ll accept the assurance from the President that he will sign the Senate bill and the reconciliation sidecar in tandem, and that’s that. They don’t need much convincing.
The hurdle to this approach remains Blue Dogs and the Stupak 12, and if the House doesn’t meet their deadline, that’s the reason, pure and simple. Diana DeGette may be confident that Bart Stupak and his anti-choicers can’t kill the bill, but he’s certainly confident that he does, to the extent that he’s proclaiming that House leaders “don’t have 10 votes for the Senate bill.”
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/04/reminder-liberals-not-the-problem-on-passing-health-care/
lms, good post and agree that progressives have compromised the most on the bill as it stands now. Hopefully this process has raised a lot of consciousness about how HC can be further reformed.
And the righties who can’t understand what “word” or “one love” means are either stupid or juvenile smart asses. I like a smart ***, but please be funny or, you know, smart.
“He thanked us,” she recalled. “He said the bill wouldn’t have been nearly as good as it is if we hadn’t advocated.”
And yet he allowed his pet pitbull Rahm to repeatedly attack and insult and belittle progressives, and liberals, both the voters and congress persons, and allowed him to cut liberal representatives and their voters off at the knees in the press, and refer to us retards and to continues to do allow the above even now.
He has lost much of our support by allowing that to go on and has given a tremendous amount of ammunition to the Republicans and Tee Baggers by allowing his administration to insult his voters.
Saying thank you to congress and serving up a **** piece of legislation is like offering his hand and then sucker punching us.
The public doesn’t play political games. Obama can’t make promises then break them, say yes one day then no the next, then repromise and rebrake the promise and expect the voters to tolerate that kind of treatment or to maintain any respect for being treated that way. Congressmen can be bought. Voters can’t.
sbj, if you’re still around or checking in, I didn’t mean to imply earlier that CA doesn’t still have the opportunity for a good education, we still have both good schools and great teachers. It’s just that fewer students can afford it or have access to the limited resources now because of such huge budget cuts.
All of our five went to public school and college here and were successful. This is the first time one is leaving the state to get a better education than she can receive here and it’s a troubling sign for the future.
Don’t presume to speak 4 tena but,
“One love…”
Harkens, for this tao, Rb. Marley & de Wailers:
“…one heart, let’s get together & feel alright.”
JahLove.
Word.
@lmsinca: Looks as if we may be heading towards the small bill that I was ridiculed for just the other day. We shall see.
And I agree that budget cuts that force college tuitions to go up are something to be avoided. I do hope, however, that some of these folks protesting realize just how good they have it here in CA. Even with the increase the cost of 2-yr and 4-yr university is really low compared to back East. And I have to grind my teeth when I hear someone saying they can’t afford a college education when we have some really excellent community colleges that are, you must admit, practically free. What are they? $50 a unit plus books? C’mon now!
Ezra Klein nails it (what else is new, I guess). From a chat transcript posted on his blog:
Public Option letter
Hi Ezra, I was just wondering what the chances are that the public option could gain momentum again? It seem unlikely but then why are more and more senators signing this letter? And what happens if the letter gets 50 votes?
Ezra Klein writes:
I’m really caught on how to cover this. As you say, the letter really has a lot of signatures now. 39, if I remember correctly. But in my reporting, I can’t get the people I trust to say, yes, take this seriously. The White House has pretty much said it doesn’t want to do this. Pelosi has said it’s unlikely. So these offices have a low-cost way to please the left by signing this letter, but they don’t actually expect to have to do the work of getting the public option passed. If that tips at any point, I’ll let you know, but as of now, the whole thing reads a little deceitfully to me.
———————————————————————————————————————-
The whole thing is worth the read, BTW. Even the part about the zombies.
Rachel Maddow goes all psycho on Liz Cheney tonight. Kent Jones had to fake arrest her.
Liz Cheney’s balls are in the vice.
sbj, I totally agree our community colleges still rock and since my daughter is an awesome teacher at one of them they rock even more. But, a community college only gets you an AA and entrance into a four year college if you want it.
Also, my daughter attended the college she is now teaching for and it’s different now than it was not that long ago. It’s much more difficult to get the classes you need to satisfy the requirements.
Hey, we both live and work in CA and understand the challenges but probably disagree on the fix.
tao, you must look cool on your cabin porch with the long dreads….
also sbj, we’ll see about the small bill, but I see you read my intriguing post re the small reconciliation bill. I thought it was an interesting idea but I’m not sure you’d approve of the results.
@lmsinca: “Hey, we both live and work in CA and understand the challenges but probably disagree on the fix.”
Gotta admit – I don’t know how to fix this mess. We’re all gonna have to eat a bit of **** pie, methinks.
@lmsinca: “I thought it was an interesting idea but I’m not sure you’d approve of the results.”
I’m gonna keep an open mind and evaluate once I see it. First we need an up or down vote in the House on the senate bill. It won’t pass. Then I guess they’ll move to debate a smaller bill. Who knows what it will include. I’m guessing they’ll try to pick up at least a few GOP votes so they can pass the 60 vote threshold in the Senate and avoid reconciliation. If so, it might not be so bad. Maybe they can get something passed by November.
sbj, you know I love ya when we agree. It’s rare but occasionally we do. Who are you thinking should follow the “Terminator”, not Meg I hope?
Well, I remember Brown (and Ronstadt) and I’m not eager to go through that again. Don’t know much about Meg but she seems to have a lot of money. I don’t know why anyone would want the job. No one has my vote yet.
lmsinca:
(quoting Congressman Garamendi at FDL):
“Other studies show that for every dollar the state invests in UC and CSU, it gets back $5.67 and $4.41 respectively in long term economic output. Taking a long view, higher education in California pays for itself and then some, meaning every qualified student we force away from a higher education is a dent in California’s productivity and output. Taxing students is simply bad fiscal policy.”
Which completely beggars the question of WHY California’s flagship universities are putting the bite on their current and potential students.
Unless the “studies” Garamendi is citing are totally bogus fabrications.
This is the case, of course. Not all educations are equal.
This is why a Bachelor of Science in Chemical Engineering with a “B” average is going to make more starting money than a magna *** laude Women’s Studies Bachelor of Arts.
Chemical Engineer gal goes off and invents Oxi-Clean.
Women’s Studies dude rages against “the Man” while he’s still delivering pizzas 10 years down the road.
tao, thanks for the Marley post re “One Love”, I couldn’t put my finger on it until you posted it. We always listen to an awful lot of Bob on the way to Vegas, he just gels with the desert for me.
lmsinca:
” Who are you thinking should follow the “Terminator”, not Meg I hope?”
You didn’t ax me, but I understand that Vicente Fox is available…
CalD:
(quoting Ezra Klein):
” So these offices have a low-cost way to please the left by signing this letter, but they don’t actually expect to have to do the work of getting the public option passed. If that tips at any point, I’ll let you know, but as of now, the whole thing reads a little deceitfully to me.”
Wasn’t I saying essentially this like a WEEK ago?
This is the Senatorial version of the “Participation Award” to the moonbat Left.
“See, Moonbats? I SUPPORTED the PO->Single Paya->Socialist UtopiaCare to the bitter end! Nice moonbats! May I have your vote and some campaign monies? You don’t want to lose me up there speaking Truth to Power,(they know you goobs flop over on your backs for a belly rub when someone uses that term), amidst all those eeeeevil Rethuglikkkans who want to make Granny pay for the abortion that they’re not going to let her have!”
Bob Marley and Nas; I really get it from Nas – Illmatic – there’s a joint on it called One Love. I listen to Illmatic constantly. The greatest rap album ever laid down. Never get tired of it.
Have a great weekend, peeps.
See y’all next week.
And – One Love.
“Which completely beggars the question of WHY California’s flagship universities are putting the bite on their current and potential students.”
Did you miss the lack of funding Bilgey? Most of our public Universities depend upon some tax revenue. Do you live in a state where they don’t?
And I know you’ll totally freak out when I say my pick for Gov. would have been Gavin. I know I’m a DFH but I just can’t seem to help it. Jerry Brown is way past his prime and I’m looking for the younger, cooler, candidate.
Also Bilgey, I’ve been telling everyone I know with high school or college age kids to try to push them into science. We agree that is where the opportunity lies. The problem is when you’re an artist, writer, humanitarian, computer geek or whatever, science just doesn’t do it for you. Everyone has to follow their own path and hope for the best.
The Government’s jobs numbers for February get released tomorrow, along with revisions to January and December ‘09. All projections across the board point to bad news. We will find out tomorrow but NPR explains what some are saying is the reason for the skewed numbers:
NPR.ORG
By Jacob Goldstein
Tomorrow morning, the government will publish its monthly jobs numbers for February. The figures are supposed to answer a key question about the economy: How quickly are we adding or losing jobs?
Because of last month’s blizzards, though, the February numbers will be rather messy.
The numbers come from a government survey that always asks businesses how many employees were paid during the pay period that includes the 12th of the month (regular employees get paid once per pay period).
As it happens, Feb. 12 was right when the East Coast was getting hammered by big snowstorms that kept lots of people home.
The snow won’t make any difference in the survey for people who made it into work at least once during the pay period that included Feb. 12. The snow also won’t affect people who didn’t make it into work during that period but got paid anyway.
“We’re talking about a very particular type of worker — an hourly worker, maybe only works a few days a week, and really could miss work and not get paid,” Joel Prakken, the chairman of a consulting firm called Macroeconomic Advisers, told me.
Somewhere between 150,000 and 220,000 people may fall into that group, Prakken said. (His rough estimate is based on the effects a big storm in 1996 had on the numbers.)
That group is big enough to have a significant effect on the numbers. Between December and January, for example, total number of jobs declined by 20,000.
So the effects of the snowstorms are likely to overwhelm whatever monthly change would have happened in February if the weather had cooperated. The numbers will paint an unrealistically bleak portrait of the employment landscape.
lmsinca:
“Did you miss the lack of funding Bilgey? Most of our public Universities depend upon some tax revenue. Do you live in a state where they don’t?”
The state university system here in the Old Dominion is not
at issue, the one in California IS.
And my point is that if Garamendi’s cites were on the up and up, then California could “spend its way to prosperity”…heck, man, a “4 for 1″ return is better than dishwasher-safe s*e*x toys.
But the studies ain’t kosher, and so neither is Garamendi’s sob song to save the government education industry subsidies.
But if they’re starting to look at means-testing subsidies from the basis of whether a course of study yields a decent monetary return to the student and the state, than that’s a glimmer of hope for the future of higher edumacation.
“And my point is that if Garamendi’s cites were on the up and up, then California could “spend its way to prosperity”…heck, man, a “4 for 1″ return is better than dishwasher-safe s*e*x toys.”
Where do you come up with this cr@p? Oh sure, we all know we could spend our way out of a recession, but unfortunately the conservatives at both the state and federal level don’t believe in that kind of investment.
You can claim you think the return on investment would be great if true, and if so why wouldn’t anyone want to get that kind of benefit? Passing legislation or actually allocating money in that direction is another story right?
Please don’t pretend you would fund this kind of investment. Or maybe you would, as long as the students were doing the right kind of research or study you approved of. Puhleeze, don’t patronize me.
“beyond left”: “without the structure of HCR to hang it on, (universal coverage/individual mandate), it will be way harder to get the robust public option/medicare buy in passed”
There’s a lot of “hope” for “change” wrapped up into that.
My prediction: The opposite of what you hope will happen.
If this bill is passed as is, with the buying of CORPORATE Insurance enforced by law (”individual mandate”), it will NEVER be “fixed” the way you hope it will.
Once the Corporate-insurance-industry gets to use the force of law to extract ransoms from 30 million more Americans, a part of that money will be used to buy the politicians required to keep the system in place.
The double-sick-irony is that part of money used to buy off the politicians will be the government subsidies (and the wages of poor and average Americans) that should be used to provide healthcare for Americans.
Instead, government subsidies (and working American’s wages) will go to further enriching an already very sick system of Corporate predation.
As for this Corporate strategy being the equivalent of “universal coverage”, Obama himself ridiculed this as the equivalent of forcing the homeless to buy houses and then claiming that solved homelessness.
But it just gets worse:
Poor folk with this kind of Corporate mandated insurance are still not going to be in a place to use their insurance because the Corporate friendly legislation provides for loopy loopholes to prevent payouts: Massive copays and huge deductibles designed to discourage the use of the insurance are still legal.
Worse, just because you are forcing Citizens by law to buy Corporate insurance doesn’t mean that those Citizens can afford the Corporate insurance even after the weak subsidies.
And while the Corporations may be forced to sell you insurance they can still overcharge you for various things such as if you are older they can charge you THREE times as much as a younger person.
And this how it will be “fixed”: Right-wingers and their newly enriched Corporate-insurance allies will claim that the newly created CORPORATE INSURANCE SCHEME should be expanded to include Medicare.
And on top of all of the predictably bad policy outcomes, the political outcome for the Dems might be even worse once poor and average Americans realize they are now criminals for not paying ransoms to overpaid Corporate-insurance predators.
The worst part of it is that most all of this would be avoidable if Obama lived up to his promise to create a Public insurance Option or at the very minimum lived up to his promise not to force a Corporate mandate.
I don’t understand why these liberals cannot get it into their heads that this is just a start. HCR will be expanded and liberalized in the future, without doubt, if it can just get off the ground now.
All, happy hour roundup posted:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/terrorism/the-morning-plum-83/
Bernie (quoting Digby):
Over time a fair number of people begin to believe that something we were all taught in grade school as an absolute — a constitutional right to counsel — is controversial. And another piece of our consensus about what the constitution means will have been destroyed …
If this happens, it will be the fault of people like Digby, not Cheney, because foreign fighters waging war against us do not enjoy the same constitutional rights as American citizens. For Digby to pretend that there isn’t anything controversial about granting foreign terrorists such rights means that he is the one attempting to blur the distinction between foreign fighters waging a war against the US and common domestic criminals. So if the average Joe who quite sensibly objects to granting foreign terrorists these rights eventually comes to see common domestic criminals as equally undeserving of those rights, Digby can blame the left for doing their best to convince people that there is no difference between the two.
scott c: whether military or civilian courts are employed, defendants have a right to council either from the justice dept or the JAG corps. Doesn’t every PERSON (not citizen) deserve the aid of someone to argue their case in any US court?
@ Bilgeman | March 4th, 2010 at 10:58 pm:
”Wasn’t I saying essentially this like a WEEK ago?”
I apologize for missing your comments but of course you were correct in saying that. I’ve been arguing the whole time while in most cases a little harmless pandering like that never hurt anyone, it’s harmful in this case because it plays to the (otherwise) bogus Republican talking point that Democrats are trying to sneak through some massive social policy initiative via budget reconciliation rules.