Sweden to recognize Armenian genocide

Sweden to recognize Armenian genocide

Published: 11 Mar 10 10:41 CET
Updated: 11 Mar 10 20:22 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/25468/20100311/

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The Swedish parliament voted on Thursday in favour of a motion to recognize the 1915 Armenian genocide.


Though the motion to recognize the genocide of Armenians and other ethnic groups - Chaldeans, Syrians, Assyrians and Pontian Greeks - had the backing of members of five of the seven Swedish parliamentary parties, the vote's outcome was uncertain to the last as the Parliamentary Committee on Foreign Affairs had recommended its rejection.

But with four centre-right politicians ignoring the recommendation and choosing to vote with the opposition, the resolution was eventually passed by a single vote.

Turkey immediately elected to recall its ambassador to Sweden, Zergün Korutürk, who said she was "very, very disappointed" by the vote.

"I'm disappointed and somewhat surprised because I expected the parliament to adopt the normal position that it is not the job of parliamentarians to decide whether or not a genocide has taken place.

"That is a questions for historians, and for researchers to examine before reaching a conclusion," she told news agency TT.

Zergün Korutürk added that Sweden and Turkey had enjoyed excellent relations over the last decade but that this was now certain to change.

"Everything is going to regress. This is going to have a drastic impact on our bilateral relations," she said.

Speaking to The Local prior to the vote, Left Party foreign policy spokesperson Hans Linde expressed his view that the time had come for Sweden to take a stand on the issue.

"Firstly, to hinder any repeat and to learn from history. Secondly, to encourage the development of democracy in Turkey - which includes dealing with their own history. Thirdly, to redress the wrongs committed against the victims and their descendants," Linde said.

The foreign affairs committee, in its comments on the motion, had argued for an open debate on the issue. It also stated that the persecution of the Armenians and other ethnic groups in 1915 would have constituted genocide according to the definition adopted by the United Nations in its 1948 genocide convention if it "had it been in force at the time."

But the committee stated that it does not consider it parliament's role to rule on human rights issues and that this should instead be addressed by "open research, open access to facts, and free debate."

Sweden's Minister of Foreign Affairs Carl Bildt agreed with the committee's position in comments on his blog on Thursday. Under the heading "Don't politicize history," Bildt wrote:

"A politicizing of history in this way risks undermining ongoing reconciliation processes, plays into the hands of those opposing normality in Armenia and reform in Turkey... and creating new tension in Swedish society."

The committee concluded in its comments that the Turkish government has in recent years made some movement on the issue, with conferences arranged on the subject as well as broader media debate.

The Swedish parliament has voted on the issue before, even approving a report in 2000 recognizing the disappearance of as many as 2.5 million Armenians, Chaldeans, Syrians, Assyrians and Pontian Greeks from April 1915 as genocide. But the recognition was later withdrawn "on a technicality", Hans Linde told The Local.

"The parliament also voted against recognition (by 245 to 37) in 2008. The difference this time is that the Social Democrats have changed their position," he said.

Carl Bildt claimed in his statement that the Social Democrat parliamentary group was forced to change standpoint on the issue as a result of a party congress vote, arguing that there are "several that feel deep unease over this."

According to Sweden's Living History Forum, most researchers are now in agreement that the massacres constituted genocide according to the accepted 1948 UN definition. The exception to this is Turkish researchers. The Turkish government has never recognized the events as a genocide and it is illegal in Turkey to claim that it occurred.

The Living History Forum is a Swedish public authority which works with issues on tolerance, democracy and human rights from both a national and international perspective.

The Local has made attempts to contact the foreign policy spokespersons at the Centre and Liberal (Folkpartiet) parties for a comment.

Peter Vinthagen Simpson
news@thelocal.se
+46 8 656 6518

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13:03 March 11, 2010 by zircon
Tuklat Pileser or Tiglathpileser: what was his reason for death?
13:38 March 11, 2010 by Nemesis
The fact that Sweden has taken so long to recognise the Armenian Genocide is a disgrace.
13:45 March 11, 2010 by Dimetrodon61
In the 1980s, a Swedish TV documentary sought out the last surviving witnesses of the genocide in what was then a Soviet republic. The knowledge of the genocide has been there, it has simply not been high on anyone's agenda to recognize it, since there has been so much else going on in foreign politics. Also, a cynic attitude among those setting the agenda has not helped -maybe it has been seen as inconvenient to challenge Turkey's denial of the genocide.
15:15 March 11, 2010 by Dinaricman
We should not stop here. It is about time that we review the Ottoman empire for what is was. Next is the Croatian geneocide. It is estimated that the Ottoman wars caused the death and enslavement of 500,000 Croats. The Turks need to held accountable.
15:15 March 11, 2010 by DAVID T
Voting on something that happened 100 years ago? Is this what my taxes are used for?
16:17 March 11, 2010 by O.S.
What about the genocide done against the Palestinians on the hands of the Israelis over 60 years ago and still on going ?

Its ridiculous how modern politics keep on concentrating on problems that no longer exists today.
16:17 March 11, 2010 by Norrlands Turk
Ridiculous. Armenian diaspora doesn't care whats going on in Armenia and doesn't understand Armenia will benefit a lot from normalizing relations with Turkey. Now they are gonna ruin everything.

Turkey offered opening its archives to Armenian and International historians to investigate all this genocide crap many times but they preferred sticking with their own made up story.

There was no genocide, it's called "war".
17:23 March 11, 2010 by Alex Coman
We must remember the historical context.

Ottoman Empire was in a deep crisis, attacked by everywhere, all around, and the political establishment were no longer able to rule. There was a deep economical crisis too. So... yes, there was a genocide.

Armenians were Russia allies in Orthodox Brethren, and The Ottoman Army saw how their Empire Christian subjects acted before. Romanians, as an example, fought hard along Russian troops against Ottomans, in Bulgaria, although, de facto, there was no ottoman soldier in Romania at that time and just a piece of paper were the link between Romania as subjected country and Ottoman empire. There was a desperate lack of solutions and many examples and deja vu s acted like precedent.

As a comparison, Austro-Hungarian Empire acted here, in Romania, much much worse. Close to genocide.

Ottomans never did something like this here, in my country. Never.

History is not a simple one sided story.

And those funny guys called politicians have NO moral right to say what is right or wrong in History. They just acted for their momentary needs.

We have no need their approval voting to know the truth.

Well, I don t know how it works for you...
17:36 March 11, 2010 by Dinaricman
Alex, how many Romanians were sold off as slaves. How many children were stolen and sent to Turkey for reducation. Then brought back to kill their parents. The Ottoman Empire was soaked in blood my friend.
17:47 March 11, 2010 by Renfeh Hguh
What next, the Swedes and the yanks for that matter, are going to debate the war crimes committed by the English when they cold bloodedy murdered all of their Frensh prisioners at the battle of Agincourt in 1415.

For f.cks sake, the genocide happened 95 years ago and was committed by an empire that no longer exists. There must be better things to do with our tax money than having pointless debates...
18:07 March 11, 2010 by Mats Nilsson
None of you were living 100 years ago, your mothers as well. Let's vote for Sumerian Genocide happened 5000 years ago.
18:08 March 11, 2010 by vegga
Dinaricman, what you are describing is called devshirme. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C5%9Firme

and it has nothing to do with genocide or massacre. It was a very successful strategy regarding its era, to form Janissary soldiers from conquered lands who were elite class of warriors that had high status in the society.

I think these tragic events should not be exploited by the politicians. It is the duty of academicians and historians to evaluate these events.
18:37 March 11, 2010 by bibi5
I am just fed up with the Turkish propaganda, the same justificitions and excuses "There was war," "Armenians were the allies of Russians"...

First of all, the overwhelming majority of Armenians were loyal to Turks, in fact they were so wary of the Turkish reaction that they would not dare thinking about revolt, they were just 4 small and isolated incidents of revolt.

in any case, even if we accept the allegations of treason, this can not justify the horrible crimes carried out against Armenians and generally christians, mostly women and children.
18:45 March 11, 2010 by Dinaricman
Vegga, from your words it's obvious you never had children. So this should be considered an acceptable practice then. Didn't the Germans steal Polish babies to raise as proper Aryans. Is this considered acceptable today as a good war strategy? Look the Ottoman empire gets to many passes as a wonderful culture. It is stained in blood.
19:07 March 11, 2010 by Alex Coman
@Dinaricman

Tell me what empire was or is not soaked in blood. I just said that Austro-Hungarian Empire acted much worse here, in Romania.

"How many children were stolen and sent to Turkey for reeducation"

How many educated Romanians work now in low paid jobs, as slaves practically, all over western world? Just because countries like US and UK destroyed our economy...

"The overwhelming majority of Armenians were loyal to Turks"...

Greeks were too before... I don t say that made the killings acceptable. But, look here, how many of us know the reality about East Timor genocide backed by US Army??? In 1999???

How many of us know the truth about East Timor genocide backed by US Army??? In 1999???

How many of us know the truth about East Timor genocide backed by US Army??? In 1999???

What about Guatemala???

Today Turkish are not to blame for what happened 100 years ago.

They are to blame about crimes against Kurdish population. In our lifetime.
19:24 March 11, 2010 by bibi5
@Alex Coman

you made a good point in your comment, actually all empires had blood on their hands, but the problem is not what SOME Turks did 95 years ago, the problem is what the modern day Turkish government is doing.As a EU membership candidate, The Turkish government has been brainwashing its own citizens for decades and spending millions of dollars on genocide denial, this just makes Armenians more defiant and persistent in thier recognition campaign.
20:03 March 11, 2010 by Aureliano Buendia
who cares about sweden? LOL
20:13 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
As a Turk, I must say, there is a massacre effective by Ottomans.

But could anyone tell me what genocide stands for? Is there a strict definition or the definition is inferential?

Another thing is could anyone define Ottomans? Do they consist of solely turks?

Now, as it's pretty obvious, most of countries on earth are not saint. I find neither Turks as barbaric nor Armenians are saint and vice versa.

As you see above, there is an example stereotype of a Turk that supports the governental idea. Note that the turkish thesis is as "ok let's form a reunion of historians and let them solve". But as a Turk, I can say this is a complete workaround for Turkey. The issue is Turkey is unable to accept such Armenian thesis due to the fact that turks cannot bear being genocidial nation and of course, if it's accepted somehow by Turkey, there is a fear that Armenian will demand regions.

The very differentiation from III. Reich and Ottomans is one is ruling Europe during late 30s and early 30s and other is devasted empire losing vast amount of regions and uncapable of fighting back which results this incredibly sad incidents. I am sorry for both sides personally.
20:28 March 11, 2010 by naturebox
I agree with Alex Coman and bibi5. Of course there was, is and always be a struggle to dominate the other. Bibi5 has said it very good. I don't understand why Turkey just doesn't want to accept that there was an Armenian genocide. Just like Germany admitted and even apologized for the first documented genocide of the twentieth century- the one in Africa (Herero and Namaqua Genocide ). Stating there was a genocide in Turkey is illegally. Where's the democracy here? The worst part is that it's all politics . Turkey is an important ally of USA , which makes USA to keep its mouth shut about the atrocities. I hope Europe won't do the same.
20:29 March 11, 2010 by Mats Nilsson
Please waste more time, you do not have any other worries than armenian genocide, bravo !
20:35 March 11, 2010 by Norrlands Turk
Give me a break.

Ottoman Turks were defending their homeland against separatists. It wasn't only Armenians who were suffered. There were Circassians, Kurdish and Laz separatists who attacked Ottoman villages and towns and killed hundreds of civilians and soldiers.

I lived down in TX for a while. If Hispanics in Texas want to establish their own country in South Texas, wanna make San Antonio the capital and start killing soldiers, what would fellow Texans do? Just give them the land and deal with this kinda b.s 100 years after?

This is all Armenian Diaspora PR work and Armenian economy has been suffering from this and keep suffering in the future as well. Don't care what Swedish parliament and people who don't know a s**t about Armenia and Turkey think!
20:36 March 11, 2010 by ali_bin_umar
Let me summarize the whole issue.......... because you carried out the genocide....therefore we can not consider you for EU memembership... sorry Turkey...you know we are sooooooooooooo touchy about human values...
20:48 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@bibi5

Unfortunately, I must accept the brainwashing stuff. The news regarding with Armenian genocide here "always" starts with the adjective: "so called".

But let's flip the coin to the other side, I don't think Armenians will let someone in denial of genocide in Armenia.

The thing is as I said Turkey is incapable of accepting it and the right wing is ruling country for about 40 years and the founder party of Turkey has also alliance with denial of genocide. So, it's impossible of even negotiating it. There are/were assaults of the ones who are even discussing it. E.g. Hrant Dink. Those who are interested in Hrant Dink can have information from Nobel Museum in censorship zone.

@naturebox: Think you are living in a dysutopian land and a nation which lives with his past of ruling 1/3 Europe upto Vienna, some parts of Asia, whole MiddleEast and Africa and this is for 600 years or so in a stability. Then, you lose your all regions and revive with a war of self-prove. Believe me, here, Turks cannot bear it since the ultimate thesis is "All the residents of Ottomans lived in a great peace under the empire". In fact this is true to some extent during 1500-1700. There were no problems with Armenians and Grecs. But nationalism wave ended the whole "dream".

For the one saying "Türkün Türkten başka dostu yoktur" meaning, there is no friend of Turk other than Turk" implies the simple brainwashing stuff in Turkey. Luckily, I am immune to brainwashing and I really don't care any nationality at all. I find individuals important more than stereotypes of nations and my shoes are my country. lol
21:05 March 11, 2010 by Dinaricman
Thank god for that small army of Croats that saved Europe.

Battle of Sisak

This battle meant the final victory over the 300-years-old Turkish nuisance, which had much too long hindered the progress of the then Duchy of Kranjsko (Carniola) as the bastion of the entire Western Europe. The victory over the more than three times stronger Turkish troops practically brought salvation to the whole Christian Europe,[9]

According to historic tradition the Ottoman forces that attempted to take Sisak fortress were six times superior in numbers, although three times[3] is probably closer to reality. In any case, it was a local, provincial army and their contingent of elite troops must have been but small. Pounding the massed attackers with heavy artillery fire, the Austrian and Croat defenders broke the Ottoman siege and pushed the enemy towards the Kupa river. Caught in the middle between two Christian army flanks, the attackers panicked and started a chaotic retreat. Disintegrating under the unending cannonade, the bulk of the army with all the commanders are said to have drowned in the Kupa river.
21:15 March 11, 2010 by Abbot
You've gotta love the hypocrisy of the Turks screaming bloody murder over the Israelis killing 1300 Palestinians while they brush aside their own killing of 1.5 million+ Christians without blinking their eyes.
21:15 March 11, 2010 by sissygirl
serkalan: your translator didn't work

Germany admits that their former government, the Nazis, committed attrocities. Germany is still a great nation despite its past. And there are people who deny the Holocaust.
21:24 March 11, 2010 by gevorg
Username: gevorg

Comment:

Please watch in youtube watch?v=uCebMq-GmH4 showing that the word genocide was coined referring "what was happened to Armenians" Don't you find it ridiculous when many in the world claim for genocide case but reject that for Armenians? What was happened is genocide, done by Ottoman authorities and Turkey is a legal successor of the Ottoman Empire. And one more thing Turkey attacked Russia in November 1914. They well could guess the outcome of attacking Russia in a winter time(Russians also could not win the war against Finland in winter time!!!). But Ottomans decided to do so and blame Armenians, then start kill them all over the country. Simply it was planned intnded killing. And all Turks know this better than anyone, but they prefer to go further, denying the facts
21:29 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@Dinaricman:

Well, Sisak has no great importance for Ottomans but Nagykanizsa. The motive was having Nagykanizsa.

The main reason for the loss of Ottomans is that invasion of Europe is tiring and the integration of forces (not only turks) dissolves during the invasion and that chaotic retreat costed for some heads in the Ottoman empire.

Note that for Ottomans, the main motive is always invade but don't kill if surrender and assimilate without killing. So, all in all, I can conclude that Turks had no motive of killing for pleasure or extermination of a nationality since the cure is as "assimilation". But it takes time to assimilate and the waves of nationalism results in defending regions in turkish point of view. while defending the regions, the massacres led to the catastrophic results, even can be considered as genocide. Let me say, in the Ottoman empire, armenians had great importance just as jews, grecs. Then, "backstabbing thesis" of the nations in the empire finished the alliance and an everlasting hatred emerged as Turkey vs. Greece, Turkey vs. Armenia, Turkey vs. Arabs except for Jews. I discard the conflict of Kurds and Turks since it's far different than this case.

@serkalan:

At least try for google translate my lazy friend.

Regards.
21:56 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@Blackman_for_Blondes:

Turkey image in your mind may give that idea but generalizations may lead nothing in this case, both more hatred indeed. Maybe a turk was messing up with you, thus, you want to generalize the act of one to all nation. Let's avoid stereotypes for a second, e.g. not all swedes are blond.

@gevorg:

>>But Ottomans decided to do so and blame Armenians, then start kill them all over the country

Ok, but as I said, Turks didn't start killing instantly without reason, please bear in mind the regions Armenians living was conquered 300 ago prior to genocidal acts. So, at least, question this: "what could be the motive for this in 1914-1915 during war which turks are losing with germans but not during 1500 or so?"
21:57 March 11, 2010 by Antioche
In France and Switzerland, it is illegal to say "Armenian genocide is not a genocide' so aren't those democracies as well? The think I doesn't understand is why when even Sweden committed more or less the same thing couple of times in their past(to Danish and laplandish) and mostly not accept what they have done, people are so eager to connect a massacre to a genocide. I can state hundreds of similar occasions in the history but it seems we turks are the only one kill people and no turkey is not legal successor of Ottoman Empire, they just paid the loans of Ottoman Empire like other countries remaining, Bulgaria etc. Btw, i would like to explain why people don't accept genocide in Turkey like simply the thesis is the decision made by Jonturks is only moving to Armenians from the battle field to around Syria(because they helped russians and armenian outlaws kill the defenceless turkish villages, which i can personally assurethat happened from my grandmother that she heard from her mom that had lived in the region at that time) but most of them couldnt made it due to lack of security and soldiers, outlaws and muslim population(mostly kurdish) around that wanted the valuable stuff that armenians bring with them. Last comment, since Turkey is not a successor of Ottoman Empire, it isn't important if it is Venezuela or Turkey that accept the genocide.
21:59 March 11, 2010 by Elton John
Norrlands Turk: Read this please: http://forum.japantoday.com/viewtopic.php?p=1075245#p1075245 So according to the words of top genocide researchers world wide it was a genocide, and according to someone called "Norrlands Turk" at The Local it was not. Hmm, I wonder whos stand I should take...
22:01 March 11, 2010 by Alex Coman
@ali_bin_umar

"because you carried out the genocide....therefore we can not consider you for EU memembership... sorry Turkey..."

This really is not a problem for Turkey to be an EU country. There are so many dollars in that country, and such a strong industry, so many hard workers and well educated people...

The only problem is the raising muslim fundamentalism.

@Blackman_for_Blondes

Great thing, africans are not brutes! :-)
22:10 March 11, 2010 by petersonberg
as far I know Turks want to this issue to be debated by historians by sharing the historical archives not only its own and the archives of France,Russia and so on. However. Armenia does not want to do this because they have founded their nation on this lie. and they have lobby activities in US. and other so called developed countries. and they already have power to make those countries accept this lie.
22:15 March 11, 2010 by Nilspet
This is utterly provocative from the point of view of Turkey. Their PM is about to have a state visit to Sweden...why on earth raise this issue now?

And how about the war crimes by the Britain and France in Asia and Africa?

Will Sweden vote???
22:18 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
>>This really is not a problem for Turkey to be an EU country

Please. Of course it's a problem for Turkey, then what is Turkey doing for 30 years in front of the doors of EU? sweeping? Don't be ridiculous to look cool. Even, as a Turk, it's obvious Turkey needs EU as the polls says so. But, it's something reciprocal. EU needs us too, but without the living quality of eastern regions and the mass amount of uneducated ones. At least, redeem your thoughts from stereotypes.

>>The only problem is the raising muslim fundamentalism.

As far as I remember Turkey is known as a democratic republic. So, who raises it?

Answer is frigthening for some Turks: "citizens" itself. Oh dear, majority of turkish citizens are supporting a political party in favor of Islam. Damn, let's form a coup for every 10 years. (1960-1971-1980-1997-2007) The last is considered as internet-based.
22:32 March 11, 2010 by Dinaricman
Maybe only the Turks in Constantinople should be allowed to join the EU?
22:34 March 11, 2010 by petersonberg
how about 'Khojaly Massacre' , will those Swedish politicians pass anything from their assembly related to that. to recall it there was no need to go back a century ago it happened a few years ago.

for more info you may have a look at the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_Massacre
22:36 March 11, 2010 by albacon
Does anyone here, except for the Turkish speakers, read and understand Turkish?If 'yes', have they ever read Turkish sources on the so-called Armenian genocide? How trustworthy is the Turkish state? Why does Armenia still decline to open its archives to the international fora? Besides has anyone read the Russian documents about this issue? Is Sweden the 'omnipotent' authority to decide on such a fragile issue when negotiations are still underway between Turkey and Armenia? How correct is that? How reliable are the sources that they base their 'allegations' on? Does Sweden forget its own history? What about the EU member France who slaughtered 1.5 million people in Algeria? How democratic are the member states of the EU? How hypocritical are they? It is always much easier to have a look at the bigger picture from a single perspective. Algerians, the Sami, Vietnamese, Azerbaijani Turks, Uighur Turks... have you forgotton all of these massacres so quickly? Have a little conscience and think twice before you utter words since it is the business of a wise man to think twice.

Extending my warmest regards...
22:37 March 11, 2010 by Alex Coman
@jazzIIIlove

"EU needs us too, but without the living quality of eastern regions and the mass amount of uneducated ones."

I understand Bulgaria and Romania has no mass of uneducated and no poor living quality regions. :-) Funny, funny, funny!!! And northern Greece at the time when Greece enter EU was a rich land with thriving industry and well educated people ... please, you re killing me :-D

"what is Turkey doing for 30 years in front of the doors of EU?" Turkey has now the industrial power that can no match the one Turkey had 30 or 20 years ago.

Comprende?

"As far as I remember Turkey is known as a democratic republic." For the moment. With a little help from the deep state generals, admirals and so on.

Kind of democratic...

Chill man, nobody s fighting you.
22:37 March 11, 2010 by sthlmstdnt
petersonberg I could not agree more to your #34 comment. you're totally right!
22:38 March 11, 2010 by Mats Nilsson
Please vote for Assyrian genocide happened 4000 years ago, it's very important.
22:43 March 11, 2010 by No More lies
Jewish Holocaust was adapted by countries and parliaments not only historians and researchers. Some people just like money over speaking the truth. Genocide is a crime and there for it has to be recognized so in the future no genocides happen.
22:46 March 11, 2010 by Abbot
@Mats. This is more important than you think because it was used by Hitler as a model of what to do with the Jews, Gypsies and other peoples he didn't like. Pretending it didn't happen or blithely brushing it aside accomplishes nothing but encouraging more of the same. Using your logic, Israel or any other country can massacre as many people as they like, then wait some years for people like you to say it is all ancient history and everyone should just get over it.
22:56 March 11, 2010 by phantomdissenter
At this rate, Turkey is not going to have any ambassadors left anywhere in the world. Who would have ever guessed what a bad career move it was to become a Turkish ambassador. How are these guys ever going to get other jobs? I can't imagine there are too many jobs in the world with "expert in genocide-denial" in the job description. I feel bad for them. Maybe they'll get a job with the Ahmedinejad administration in Iran.
23:01 March 11, 2010 by Antioche
@Abbot

This Hitler speech "Who remember the armenians?" I believe it is very common gossip, can you give me date and place for this comment of Hitler. It sounds stupid since there were trials done by both puppet ottoman government after ww1 and allies and 2 of 3 jonturk leaders were killed by armenians after a short time in Europe. Probably it depends on "memoirs" like any other armenian allegation. Btw, is Asala ringing any bell, killing diplomats and bombing airports in 1970 and 1980s. It is not of course directly related to the issue but i would like to see about the reaction by the commentaters probably "well deserved" right?. They only dissolved after killing french people in Orly, of course french death is not invaluable as the turks.
23:03 March 11, 2010 by No More lies
@ All deniers,

Check the documentation of this genocide. They are all in archives of different countries. These are just the copies.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=14044
23:04 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@Alex Coman

Bulgaria and Romania:

If you are applying for EU, you must fullfil the req., simple as 2+2. So, no problem for EU but if a nation supress ideas, can you believe in democracy in here? So, again, don't avoid the question, why an armenian is killed in Turkey due to his thoughts and now, he has a place in Nobel Museum in censorship zone? Answer this!

For uneducated ones:

At least, could you check for the literacy statistics of Turkey? Really, I am ashamed of the position of Turkey in any index. Don't you?!

Could you enlighten us regarding the higher education system in Turkey? 70 universities or so in Turkey. Could you give us the success of those universities regarding Science Citation Index? That index proves the quality of turkish education system regarding higher education which is a great failure for our country.

For poor ones: At least, have you visited eastern parts? Why those people are in a great poverty and dying in vain with a simple earthquake? Have you got any idea regarding quality of their living? We must admit we assimilate those for 100 years and we left them in poverty that eventually, Kurds form PKK and started massacres on Turks. Could you at least tell here why 2.5 million eastern residents are in favor of a political party that in favor of PKK that kills 30.000 people which evenually led Turkish Army to force Kurds for a compulsory displacement in western regions (sounds relevant to this article) of Turkey and they end up in Sweden in the end?

Of course, Turkey has now the industrial power that can no match the one Turkey had 30 or 20 years ago just as Iran, Kenya, any other nation. Please do you think nations are stable regarding advancements in science and technology during time?

Could you enlighten us regarding deep state generals, admirals?

>>Chill man, nobody s fighting you.

Discard your stereotype!
23:10 March 11, 2010 by phantomdissenter
This is to Mats Nilsson. You're right, what's the use of passing legislation on Genocide. What a waste of time! Who cares about the murder of 1.5 million innocent civilians? Why should the Swedes care about that? Maybe the Swedes have finally gotten it right after almost 100 years. At least in one way the Swedes are finally honoring the memory of their own ancestors (see summary of Alma Johansson below) who saved so many suffering children, instead of cowering to bullies who want everyone to forget about the first Genocide of the 20th Century. This resolution that the Swedish people agaonized over and finally passed, truly honors the memory of a real hero among humans.

Alma Johansson (1880-1974) was a Swedish missionary who worked in the city of Mush in the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century. In 1901, the Missionary Society of Swedish women sent Johansson to Mush (Western Armenia), where she stayed until December, 1915. She worked at an orphanage for Armenian children. On the outbreak of World War I, the atrocities against the empire's Christian minorities escalated and she became an eyewitness to these crimes against humanity. She wrote about her experiences in a book called Ett folk i landsflykt: Ett år ur armeniernas historia ("A People in Exile: One Year in the Life of the Armenians", Stockholm: Kvinnliga missions arbetare, 1930), both of which were translated into Armenian and French.

She also made testimonies to German and American diplomats who published them later. Alma told about how women took poison so they wouldn't be captured by the Turks, and how the soldiers transported bloody, wounded women and children through the city while other soldiers fired at them just to frighten. When the wounded fell to the ground, the solders would hit them with the butt ends of their rifles. "I can never forget the sight. And nothing could you do for them!" she wrote.

She gave information about how the kids at the orphanage were handed over to a Turkish officer, and then taken to a building outside the city where they all were murdered.

In 1923 Johansson moved to Salonika, and established a factory for more than 200 Armenian refugee women. She also founded an Armenian kindergarten and primary school in Charilaos (Greece).

In 1997, the Johansson festival was organized in Yerevan, Armenia.

In 2005, on the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide (and every year since then), a group of Swedish Armenians visited Alma Johansson's grave at Skogskyrkogården in Enskede, outside Stockholm, to remember these horrifying events and to honour her efforts.
23:20 March 11, 2010 by Norrlands Turk
@Elton John

Cool website full of broken links. Pity. I don't really wanna argue with someone who picked "Elton John" as nickname. :)

@dinarincman

I've got a nice wallpaper for you. You're welcome.

http://www.itusozluk.com/img.php/b352e5dedf50896fc0c1596919fcfb6410233/istanbul+since+1453

At least I see there are people like petersonberg who actually has some information that is not manipulated.
23:31 March 11, 2010 by bibi5
I would also like to comment on the Turkish proposal to form a historical commision , it seems that this has been recently used by Turkish propaganda machine to claim that since Armenians have something to hide, they are hesitant to accept this proposal. Apart from the very simple fact that such commision is intrensicly insulting to the victims, the truth is that this propasal will not solve any problems.

First of all, the term "genocide" is a legal and political term, president Obama and other western leaders didn't ask for any permission of historians to call what was going on in Darfur a "genocide", they used the term based on the reports they got about the events, you may say the armenian genocide occured almost a century ago? yes, it was a century ago but again historians have no authority over this issue, historians have already done their part, there are myriads of books and articles about this issue and the Turkish government has been spending millions of dollars to support its own "version of history". Second of all, there is a huge gap between Turkish deeds and words, on the one hand, they propose the formation of a historical commision, on the other hand, they prosecute their nationals over this issue.

And finally, there is the issue of reparations, if Turkey and Armenia both accept the idea that an independent group of legal experts investigate this issue then the ruling of that commision will have to be binding and in case the commision of legal experts conferms the "allegations" then Armenians will demand billions of dollars in reparations, the question is will turkey pay that money?
23:38 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@Norrlands Turk

Could you explain us what the point is regarding with this wallpaper? Ok, we got Istanbul. So what? Can you consider Turkey is very well preserving Istanbul? Didn't you encounter any filth in Istanbul?

Sadly, I can give you any link regarding the very filth we caused in this country.

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/3-lise-ogrencisi-tramvay-altinda-kaldi/turkiye/sondakika/11.03.2010/1210153/default.htm?ver=81

You may say, this may occur in anywhere in the world but at least, check for yesterday, the day before etc. and without bias, could you say we are good at our democracy, the way of living etc. and obviously, EU won't be accepting us even we are sweeping the doors of the union and please don't play the cool here. We know we are not good at democracy thus in pursuit of EU standards and the way of their living. Yet, we need 100 more years or so to evolve to have the comprehension to respect others' ideas.

One last thing, a working link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

Search for Turkey, you grab the idea;)
23:38 March 11, 2010 by Alex Coman
@jazzIIIlove

"I am ashamed of the position of Turkey in any index. Don't you?!"

I am romanian, so... :-D

"Of course, Turkey has now the industrial power that..."

Man, Turkey now :

"In 2008 Turkey produced 1,147,110 motor vehicles, ranking as the 6th largest producer in Europe (behind the United Kingdom and above Italy)"

"The country is among the world's leading producers of agricultural products; textiles; motor vehicles, ships and other transportation equipment; construction materials; consumer electronics and home appliances." Wikipedia

"Could you enlighten us regarding deep state generals?" Man, I told you, you are funny!

You told me to answer to something in your first paragraph, but I read no "please". Ok, you are the prisoner of love -hate relation with your country, maybe because you live somewhere else and you are now a little depressive, but, man, please, be civilized!

@phantomdissenter

Great story, great woman, God rest her blessed soul!
23:39 March 11, 2010 by JohnnyJilu
First off, as an Assyrian, I'm fed up with the genocide constantly being referred to as the Armenian Genocide. The Turks deny the genocide ever happened and the Armenians try to monopolise it for themselves. Assyrians, Greeks and Armenians were massacred in cold blood by the Turks. As a consequence we lost our ancestral lands that we occupied for thousands of years. The souls of our martyr's will never rest until the Turks admit the atrocities committed by their ancestors and we as their descendents will continue to perform our duty to ensure that the Turks accept their bloody past. To those who say that this happened 100 years ago and question why we should concern ourselves with it today, I say go and say the same thing to the Jews and you might find yourself in prison, depending on where you live. The Germans have accepted their past, which will no doubt mean that they will never repeat such barbaric crimes in the future. Good on you Sweden, I hope other nations take a leaf out of your wise book. Johnny, an Assyrian whose ancestors came from the Assyrian village of Jilu (Hakari mountains - South East Turkey, where a single Assyrian has not lived since the Genocide of 1915 - it is now inhabited by kurds).
23:50 March 11, 2010 by love_and_light
why is noone talking nowhere about the genocide of belgium between 1890 and 1920 in Kongo, with 15 Million dead africans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium

(just search for the word "million" on the page and you will see)

or why is noone talking about France in Algeria in the 1950ies (!!!) killing 1 Million people or the UK in India or the west allies killing 1,5mio in Irak (for what reason? because there were nuclear weapons???)...

it's called cultutal-centricism, lobbyism and out-of-control-capitalism...Turkey will never enter the EU, europeans have lost their chances, Turkey will join his historical friends in the orient and one day they will succeed just because of demographical facts, it's a pity, because, still there are wise europeans, but they are a small minority (i hope i'm wrong)...
23:56 March 11, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@Alex Coman

When you turn an ipod, you will see; "Designed in California, assembled in China". So, Turkey has no genuine brand to export except for its food.

uncivilized:

I am civilized enough to be unbiased and impartial to incidents happened in this land.
00:06 March 12, 2010 by Yura77
just want to show how Turkey goverment brainwashing their people. I was station in Inserlic US base in Turkey. I took a tour near ADANA to Castle by the Sea. As soon as i get of the boat i see Armenian alphabet writing on the walls of the castle. The guide tells us that some Turk nobel build this castle for his dauther. When I asked him why i see armenian writings, he explained that it was actilly was Armenian family who build the castle but the goverment forces them to say it was Turk family.
00:07 March 12, 2010 by No More lies
@ love_and_light

Perhaps you don't know the definition of genocide. The genocide is extermination of a race, nation etc. I have never heard about the events you are referring that a group of unarmed people (children, women and elderly) be killed because they are Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks or whatever.

And please change your nickname, you don't deserve to it.
00:08 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
why is noone talking nowhere about the genocide of Belgium between 1890 and 1920 in Kongo, with 15 Million dead africans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium

(just search for the word "million" on the page and you will see)

or why is noone talking about France in Algeria in the 1950ies (!!!) killing 1 Million people or the UK in India or the west allies killing 1,5mio in Irak (In the year 1990 - for what reason? because there were nuclear weapons??? )...etc. etc. etc.

scientifically, the issue is called cultutal-centricism, lobbyism and out-of-control-capitalism...Turkey will never enter the EU, europeans have lost their chances, Turkey will join his historical friends in the orient and one day they will succeed just because of demographical facts, it's a pity, because, still there are wise europeans, but they are a small minority (i hope i'm wrong)...
00:12 March 12, 2010 by Yura77
my grand gran parent run from Turkey city of Kars in 1915. Out of 6 children only my grandma survived. she was 2 years old. War or Genocide it happen. They run becuse they were armenian and would be kille dif they stayed. I was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. I had to run from there because I was Armenian and that happen in 1988. History repeats it self if you dont remember.
00:14 March 12, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
JohnnyJilu:

I am deeply sorry but please don't consider every Turk as slaughters.

love_and_light:

I concur and whether those are genocide or not, (I mean you can put a noun for those acts), the conscience of a human cannot deny such acts and unfortunately, the humankind sometimes swerve really badly as in the links you provide.
00:20 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
@nml

so tell me, what were the Belgians doing in Kongo (1890-1910), when they killed 15mio (!!!!) Africans (why don't european media write about that, explain!), what were the French doing in Algery killing 1 mio (in the 1950ies), the western allies killing 1,5 mio in Irak (1990ies) (for more details see #55), if those events weren't a genocide with high-tec-weapons against the civilian population, what was it then, explain! Explain without being a one-sided lobbyist, be fair! love&light!
00:26 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
@nml

so tell me, what were the Belgians doing in Kongo (1890-1910), when they killed 15mio (!!!!) Africans (why don't european media write about that, explain!), what were the French doing in Algery killing 1 mio (in the 1950ies), the western allies killing 1,5 mio in Irak (1990ies) (for more details see #55), if those events weren't a genocide with high-tec-weapons against the civilian population, what was it then, explain! Explain without being a one-sided lobbyist, be fair! love&light!
00:28 March 12, 2010 by phantomdissenter
Yura,

Cover-up of the fact that Anatolia is the historic homeland of Armenians and Assyrians has been part of Turkish state policy since 1923.

Speaking of Adana, I met a young Turkish man in his mid 20s from Adana a couple of years ago. He was a student in the U.S. We became chummy because we had some things in common and we could speak with each other in Turkish. One day he told me that I was the first Armenian that he had ever met. Before the Genocide, there were thousands of Armenians living in Adana. Armenian churches litter the landscape in and around Adana. Adana was the center of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia established in the mid 1300s. It was painful to hear that this young man had never met an Armenian in a city that was once a center of Armenian life. He also was surprised to hear from me that Armenians ever had lived in Adana. Another surprise was that Armenians can speak Turkish and don't hate Turks.
00:33 March 12, 2010 by Norrlands Turk
@jazzIIIlove

I don't know what point you're trying to make. I gave the link to that picture since Istanbul was mentioned as "Constantinople" purposefully in a previous message. After all its never too late to get your facts straight.

I did not say Turkey is a perfect or even better than average democracy.

EU membership would be nice but I don't think its a must for Turkey. But it has nothing to do with the subject and again, I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I am not gonna waste my time anymore by writing here.

First, go ahead and investigate the genocides done by Europeans in the 20th century. Ottoman never had overseas colonies like many European nations did centuries ago. Study what happened to those colonies.

Heck, If you really wanna see a genocide, read about American Indians. But Ottoman Turks were defending their homeland against "great Europe's civilized nations" and it was a war, not a genocide.
00:33 March 12, 2010 by JohnnyJilu
Jazzllllove,

Thank you for your apology, I wish the Turkish state would also recognise and apologise for the attempted Genocide committed against the Assyrians, Greeks and Armenians in 1915. I am sure such a measure will bring about closure and bring the various peoples closer together. I have never and will never label all Turks as slaughterers - the attempted Genocide of 1915 was a policy adopted by the then government and I realise would have gone against the wishes of many ordinary Turks.

A few years ago, 4 members of my family visited our village of Jilu (Hakari - South East Turkey), disguised as American tourists, the first time our people set foot in their land since 1915. Believe it or not, the church that was built by my ancestors 1500 years ago still stands and is revered by the local Kurds who now inhabit the land. I have pictures and videos of their trip and what a beautiful place it is, I also hope to see it before I depart from this world.
00:36 March 12, 2010 by Yura77
I dont hate Turks, I do want them to accept what happen in the pass. It will bring closure to many people and families.

About Armenians in Turkey, to be honest I have seen some people there who swear to me that they were Turks but they had way to big of the nose. I just know they had Armenian blood. :)
00:52 March 12, 2010 by Antioche
There is a difference between denying a massacre and the term 'genocide'. I felt really sorry about how people suffer but the intention is important i believe in this situation. Mostly people object in two things, first the number of casualties which is not important at all in human perspective of course just political. Secondly, people object that the intention is not extermination but the conditions of ongoing war and hatred between muslim and christian population and lack of safety resulted that way. This can expain why the armenians in large cities left unharmed. If you want to

learn more about the turkish documents which are available in internet here is the link. Unfortunately it is even hard to understand for a turkish speaker but it shows it seems more like a war between armenians under support of russians against ottoman empire

http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/

I am really sorry about the commentators that explained their losses.It is a tragedy but you should know there are lost ones in turkish families as well.
00:54 March 12, 2010 by Yura77
The diference between Americans and Turkey, that Americans does not denies that what they did to Indians was wrong and even today part of my taxes goes to support Indian schools, hospitals and land where Indians can leave the way they used to and contunie to preserve their culture. Do you think Armenian can go back to Turkey and reopen armenian church?
01:03 March 12, 2010 by Antioche
@Yura 77

Black Sea(mostly minorities but of course all people eventually in same genetic ppol) people have also big noses. :) I lived in Ankara we dont have many armenians there but as people i have met people are very open about their origins eventhough some changed their names and surnames. Of course, they may not know about their origins in some cases like descends of orphans etc.
01:04 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
show me an Indian supporting your thesis yura77, it's all about the perspective and the motivation behind using arguments like this, you (ab)use the Indian tragedy in order to blame Turks, which is a very popular issue in the western world...
01:11 March 12, 2010 by Yura77
first of all I did not bring up issue with American and Indians, some one else did. All i am saying that the Americans are doing something to help Indians in supporting they culture. Turks do not. I just heard resently that Turkey started first Kurds tv or radio station.

I do not blaim anyone or defend anyone. I was sharing my personal expirence and expirence of my family.
01:19 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
yura77, i dont think, that there is an Indian person supporting your thesis "that the Americans are doing something to help Indians in supporting they culture", still Indians belong to the poorest minorities in the US and still there is big confusion in the us media, about what happened in the history really...on the other hand the turkish side is pleading for opening all archives about what really happened in ww1, but the armenian side is blocking this? why?
01:28 March 12, 2010 by No More lies
@love_and_light

The difference between you and others is that you are denying what your ancestors did.
01:31 March 12, 2010 by Yura77
Can you garantee that archives in Turkey have not been tempered with, after all the propoganda i saw there. In truth I dont know why, but I dont need to read anything. It happen to my family in 1915, it happen to me in 1988 in Baku.

About poor minoritis in America: i am an imigrant came to USA in 1991 with 50 dollars in the pocket. almost 20 years later i owe 2 homes, 2 cars and have a great job. America is a land of opportunity but money does not grow on trees here. ( well for USA goverment they do)

by the way, you doing great job by stearing the arguments towards America problems and away from Turkey. You should be working for Turkey goverement.

I have to go now, will check comments in 2 hours.
01:33 March 12, 2010 by No More lies
@love_and_light

This article is about the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocide that was carried on by Ottomans. Genocide is a crime and doesn't matter where and when it happened.
01:42 March 12, 2010 by phantomdissenter
Love and Light,

I am a product of American public education. Rest assured that children in America learn about the slaughter of Native Americans, and that the U.S. government and the government of the individual states teaches it. We are very aware that the Native American peoples were decimated in what is perhaps the most complete Genocide ever committed. I only wish Turkey treated the history of the Armenian Genocide in the manner that the U.S. treats the history of the slaughter of the Native American people. If it did, there would be no need for Genocide resolutions throughout the world. Furthermore, you're the one who is trying to use the slaughter of the Native-American people in a political way to somehow argue against the Armenian Genocide resolution, not Yura.

Now for you Antioche,

The only people still pretending to have any doubt about the intentions of the Ottoman authorities is you the Turks. Nobody else who has studied the Armenian Genocide is irrational enough to understand that a video-taped testimony of the Young Turks admitting their intention is unecessary. The circumstantial evidence is abundant. The Young Turks weren't so stupid to understand the consequences of uprooting women, children, and elderly and forcing them on foot over hundreds of miles with no food, water, or shelter to a desert with no provisions to sustain life. Any idiot would realize that such an act would result in the death of almost everyone. I presume from your login name that you are a Turk living in Sweden. The next time you visit your homeland, why don't you take a little trip to Diyarbakir, and then take a walk from there to the Syrian Desert during the summer; but don't pack more than a couple days worth of food and water; don't wear any special modern hiking gear; no sunglasses; no sunblock; no tent or sleeping bag, and no while you're at it, bring your little sister and your grandma with you. Let's see if you survive that journey! The bottom line is that if the Young Turks didn't realize their deportation orders would result in the death of the vast majority of the deportees, then they were complete idiots. And we all know they weren't complete idiots, only maniacal murderers!
01:42 March 12, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
@Yura77:

"About Armenians in Turkey, to be honest I have seen some people there who swear to me that they were Turks"

feeling as "Turk" due to fear of discrimination or let's say this is an assimilation.

@Antioche:

"There is a difference between denying a massacre and the term 'genocide'."

Ok, you are right in your points in your post but don't you think it's unfair that while a government says let's discuss the history, on the other hand bans every idea regarding existence of a genocide? Doesn't that mean whatever anyone says, the state won't be changing my idea? I mean even there is no genocide at all, I find the idea of state a little deceiving.

Regards.
01:49 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
@nml

where did i deny what, show me, i am inviting you and others to think and act scientifically and fair, asking you to explain me some simple facts (see #55 and #62), ... because if you're not fair, you're making things worse and the planet is bad enough...

@yura77

you started the comparison with the americans and the indians (or somebody else, as you said before), not me, America is a land of opportunities, yes and a land with lots of wisdom, beauty and equality, I know, but there is also a dark side, designed by some lobbyists to raise their own power and not(!) the peace on the planet...why should Turkey pay and others not (see #55 & #62), just because there is no powerful christian-lobby behind? do you think that's fair? or do you think this would empower the peace on the planet...sweet dreams...love&light!
01:58 March 12, 2010 by Antioche
@No More lies

Well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nemesis seems to be enough punishment for the people behind the situation, don`t you think?(with british support of course.)

As i understand there was a war between armenians and ottomans at that time since the empire is very weak of fighting in many battlefields but there were a resistance and movement of independent from 30-40 years before 1915.Thousands of armenian militia were exist at that time. You should keep in mind after balkan war, millions of turkish people in balkans got their way back to anatolia and thousands of them slaughtered because ottoman empire lost this battle so fact that noone can ever expected. That may trigger local population that same thing may happen again and already many turkish villages were busted by armenian militia.This is not official thesis, i have relatives from the region Elazig,Harput in eastern anatolia that witnessed these.

I dont want to justify what happened but just to
01:59 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
@phantomdissenter

answer #55 and #62 if you really are interested in a fair and scientifically founded debate, I don't know what school you visited in the us, i dont believe that this is the common way they talk about that issue, but anyway i didn't start this comparison, your "friends did" (see above)...i visited (maybe the "best" schools in europe) to know enough about the distorted view to history as mentioned in #55 and #62
02:05 March 12, 2010 by No More lies
@love_and_light

You are denying it. I don't have to be a scientist to see it. You are trying to changing the subject and that is a way of denying.
02:13 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
@nml:

again! show me, where i deny what, ... like I said before, your "friends" changed the subject, not me, say something to #55 or #62, cause if you can't, you don't say anything at all, ...

now I go sleep, maybe we'll continue our discussion tomorrow, hoping to find you and your friends being more rational in their considerations, good night...
02:14 March 12, 2010 by Antioche
@jazzIIIlove

That changes kind of fast more ideas came to place but i believe the government and people want to stay as a whole since noone listens about their theories and sayings. It is very obvious that this is not only clarification of historic event or make rest of the souls of people died, it is organized move. Armenian people have the only agenda to make armenian genocide a non-negotiable thing like what it is in Switzerland and France where you can`t discuss armenian genocide anymore you need to accept it. Other thing is Armenia doesnt accept the border they use a mountain of Turkey as national symbol and use east turkey as western armenia.You should understand people need to hold their stand. And if you go to eastern Anatolia and ask about stories of 1915 they will accept that many armenians were killed but also before that many muslim as well, women that poisoned the clothes of soldiers, militias demolished villages etc, like a death and like situation.

I believe as long as Armenians have claims on Turkey which noone can deny, and get big brothers in the issue that wont work on Turkish people that only makes people more defensive. I also believe most people believe that you cannot classify it as a genocide by heart. Genocide associated with holokost in Turkey not Darfur or such which is one of a kind in many minds.
02:16 March 12, 2010 by No More lies
@Antioche

There was no Armenian military in 1915. In fact Turkish government took Armenian youth to join the ottoman army and then killed them. This was the beginning of the killings; they wanted to get rid of the possible fighting force. After this they started to kill the children, women and older.

This is all documented well enough so that many historians and more than 20 countries recognize the Armenian genocide.
02:38 March 12, 2010 by Antioche
@No More Lies

I know that there were no Armenian military and i am aware that while many armenians were fighting in Gallipoli their families were gone but I talked about guerillas.It is hard to give any credit the parliaments since they are politicians and they are using these issues for many reasons. But noone can argue that there is not a independence movement with armed people and the condition is more like civil war especially in WW1. Anyway, that is what I believe and it is hard to change well-settled minds and we dont believe documents that each other present. I am sorry about what happened in any case. I didn`t personally affected by the situation but i can understand why people want international recognition even have their motherland back,But for the latter of course there is no solution and i believe it is really suspicious why this issue is top of the news all the time perhaps just common hatred and fear against turkey. Ironically, same thing happens in Armenia-Azerbajican now with allegations of committed genocide by both sides. They say there is 1 million people ran away from Karabakh to Azerbaijcan and Armenia is accepted as invader in there. So i guess role and actors change but we are all the same.
02:40 March 12, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
" i believe the government and people want to stay as a whole since noone listens about their theories"

That's partially true but that doesn't change the deceit in the state since we cannot bare to listen the others' thesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink

"Armenian people have the only agenda to make armenian genocide a non-negotiable thing like what it is in Switzerland and France where you can`t discuss armenian genocide anymore you need to accept it"

Turkish people have only agenda to make armenian genocide a non-negotiable thing like what it is in again in Turkey where we can't discuss armenian genocide at all.

"Other thing is Armenia doesnt accept the border they use a mountain of Turkey as national symbol and use east turkey as western armenia."

Ok, last come last served and I admit it is not very pleasent for turkey but armenians "were" living there too. The tense is past since we force them to immigrate.

"And if you go to eastern Anatolia and ask about stories of 1915 they will accept that many armenians were killed but also before that many muslim as well, women that poisoned the clothes of soldiers, militias demolished villages etc, like a death and like situation."

But that doesn't change the "systematical" exile which results in mass deaths and this really sounds like a genocide to me or something really close to it. I mean I cannot comprehend your statement, are you implying that any nation has a right to have acts that may lead such results if the citizens are in danger? At least for the displacement, Ottoman and JeuneTurks should support the basic needs and could have prevent mass killings.

All in all, I got the point of yours and admit to some extent regarding the discussion stuff of both sides but I find neither turkish state nor armenian state are really sincere upon this issue and probably won't be as in my other posts.
02:41 March 12, 2010 by phantomdissenter
Antioch,

It's obvious you don't know the history of WWI, how the Ottomans entered it, how the Ottomans treated their Christian minorities before it, and how the Christian minorities responded to their ill treatment. And you certainly don't know who the Armenians sided with during WWI. My great-grandfather, an Armenian, was a military leader for the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The vast majority of Ottoman Armenians were loyal to the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The Armenians you are referring to as "being in a war" were Russian citizens fighting for their country, Russia. There were Ottoman Armenians living near the Russian border who defected and joined the Russian army, but they were few in number. Moreover, do you find that to be a valid excuse for slaughtering all Armenians, including women and children, from all across Anatolia?
02:48 March 12, 2010 by No More lies
@Antioche

Isn't it odd for you that many nations do have problems with turkey? So if you think that it is ok to kill a nation and occupy its territory illegally than I am sorry for you. Then don't get surprised that this kind of resolutions are going to be more and more in the future until the entire world is in one side and the turkey on the other.
03:22 March 12, 2010 by ARARAT
There is no single armenian that can forgive the GENOCIDE commited by Ottaman Empire at 1915. But it is even worse to try to deny the truth. There cannot be any ideas for future developments or relation since Turkey does not recognize the genocide. We cannot build the future based on lie, based on hate and pain. This pain was beared for a long time and needs to be released, and the best way to do it is to recognize the truth. Only truely strong country can stand face to face with its past!!!!

I am very happy that in nowadys world full of lie and dirt, the voice of truth has been raised!! Bravo Sweden!!!
07:03 March 12, 2010 by pjtaipale
love_and_light: "why is noone talking nowhere about the genocide of belgium between 1890 and 1920 in Kongo, with 15 Million dead africans"

Because the Belgians, and everyone else, have generally admitted it, long ago. When King Leopold II's personal little enterprise was brought to publicity in Europe, it was a disgrace, even in Belgium, even in 1905. I don't hear a lot of people saying it did not happen. Therefore, no one has need to talk about it.

For Western forces in Iraq and Afghanistan: no one is denying there was a war and people got killed. Plenty of people protest them at home (and plenty of people in those countries are thankful for the intervention, although that angle is not as much discussed in Western media). The contested issue is what alternative history would have been if those countries hadn't been occupied: how many dead over years of sanctions, what other wars there would have been.

With Ottomans and Armenia, if you stop denying it happened, we could proceed to the phase where we should be with e.g. Iraq: debate what the alternative history could have been, and how to go forward.

With Turkey and Armenia, the way forward seems to be that Turkey withdraws ambassadors, and hopefully EU negotiators as well.
07:17 March 12, 2010 by ali_bin_umar
This move (pre-planned) would make solid reasons for the decision to keep Turkey away from EU.
08:31 March 12, 2010 by Vanetsi
Fantastik Victory !!! Bravo Sweden !!! Thank You Sweden to recognize Armenian Genocide ! My gr.father and gr. mother from Western Armenia - from Kars and Van , thev was eye-witness survivors ... Thank You for Justice !
08:36 March 12, 2010 by cbe
I am, as a Turkish guy, totally and definitely ready to accept any genocide. I am no fanatic supporter of Turkish goverment nor what they taught us as history in our schools nor what Turkish media says about the issue.

However, all I want is to see the Armenian Goverment opening its archives about 1915. Could anyone please tell me that why the Armenia is behaving like this and not opening their archives?

I kindly ask you not to see the subject by the "Western" point of view, but also see it from all perspectives.

I can debate on the issue with you as long as you want and as long as we are objective and not moving on with our emotions.

I also want to ask that whether any French Historians can make research about these issues against the Armenia in France? Yeah, it is out of law in France saying that "there was no genocide" but I do not know if it is also out of law that making scientificaly reasarch about these issues in universities in France? Just curious about that.
08:43 March 12, 2010 by calebian22
Armenian Genocide:

Just another example in a very long list of what happens when Muslims are a majority in a country. Second class citizenry for minorities at best, massacres at worst.
10:03 March 12, 2010 by Texrusso
KUDOS to the Swedish Parliament for showing such bravely, ignoring economics and diplomatic gain and putting humanity first. The vote is a challenge for the new World order, what seem to be a holistic approach to politics. Now the challenge is for Turkey to just call a spade a spade and appologize for this heinious crime against humanity and move on. It doesn't matter how long ago it was. What is so difficult for Turkey to just say "We are Sorry"? and pay compensation if required. Until a country is able to accept the evils of her past it is not ready for democracy. Kudos once more the Swedish Parliament.
10:40 March 12, 2010 by love_and_light
@pjtaipale

don't take it personal, but your argumentation (#90) is so poor, noone(!) is talking about that what happened then and africa is still suffering from those events, you can read no article in newspapers or read no book or watch no reports on tv about all those events, described in #55 and #62, just because those genocides were made by christian, this is called culture-centricism in science...shame on those, who support such theories, because you support injustice with those theses, again, don't take it personal, my words are meant for the system...
11:04 March 12, 2010 by Zeynalov
Democracy will always find its place. It is not a ancient period. The Sweden is one of the father country of Democracy and there is no doubt that they will always support the right side. Not only the Sweden but also the other countries will support the trues. The world is not blind, and they can not close their eyes to reality. I hope they will also react to Khojaly Genocide, and they will support it. I am calling out to Armenia and its Diaspora:

Hey Armenia you can not discover false "Armenian Genocide" and you can not realize it, because it is not reality. There was not any Genocide.

Anar from Azerbaijan
11:56 March 12, 2010 by Alex Coman
Turkey are now entering in the Club Of The Finest:

Russia,

Germany,

China,

Japan

USA, yes, USA,

Australia,

UK,

Belgium,

Indonesia,

Iraq,

maybe Israel...

You know, Turkish, as Michael Jackson sing: You are not alone...

Don t be so jumpy!

@jazzIIIlove

Man, leave the Ipod, buy a Renault car or a Fiat and you ll see those, along with others brands, are made in Turkey.

Peace!
12:21 March 12, 2010 by _KPS_
Im Armenian from Latvia ! Thank you SWEDEN.

We cant hide the truth !
13:08 March 12, 2010 by Marco Canegrati
Hi all I studied for several years people migration in Italy; concerning the armenian tragedy I founded a lot of documents on foreign affairs ministry and in the Vatican state archives which expressed that armenian diaspora started from 1915 due to the ottoman repression of all minorities, considering that after the genocide, armenians were 200.000 instead of 2 millions before the tragic event.

Best
13:28 March 12, 2010 by ARARAT
It is offensive to question this issue and ask Armenians to reconsider the facts and start doing research to find out whether the GENOCIDE happened or not!! NONSENSE!!!!!!!

And stop useing the statement that this resolution will affect the ongoing developments in relations between Armenia and Turkey as a shield for trying to escape the truth!!!!!!! . About what relations one can talk having the genocide behind, vica versa the recognition will help in the future to develop more sustainable relations with your neighbours.

Thank you for those Turks that are brave enough to say what cbe(#93) said!!! I am sure there are many such kind of people in Turkey itself.
13:36 March 12, 2010 by Ucar
The people who heard only stupid news and read affected documents must stop and not to waste their time for nothing. We the Turks are not Ottomans at all. There was another empire totally different from Republic of Turkey. And if you want to talk about the fact.. there was a war situation not a genocide. How about that: I hear a lot of stories that Armenians killed thousands of Turks. So, without insufficient knowledge with their personal gains politicians and parties think about next elections and shape their decison o behalf of it. And you the useless people talk about genocide that must be decided with facts. Who is interested in facts, be my guest and lets go to Turkey where the events(mutual killings) happened not in US, France, Sweden or Armenia; and research about it. If you have courage to face with truth you dont go around parliements. You directly face with Turkey and try to learn fact. But as I all know, Armenians are these kind of people try to persuade world to gain economically or politically. No my friends we showed that all the world were against us at our Salvation War and we sent them back to their lands without nothing. Now you are trying to do it in political way and I am grateful that whatever it takes truth will come. Then I want to see your faces.. This is not a place to discuss historical events nor parliements. Be my guest and We learn the truth together...

We have nothing to afraid from our history.. Think again...
13:58 March 12, 2010 by Antioche
Well, all pro-armenian genocide people, i would like to comment on one argument. of yours. You say belgians,french etc. accepted their crimes in mass killings but i havent heard they are accepted them as act of genocide and i didn't see foreign parliaments making resolutions or monuments about that. They even found Serbia unguilty about events in Bosnia. I guess only when Christians are victims it is the issue. Nowadays, Turkish government accepted events as mass killings anyway but not as a genocide.That`s the problem.
14:17 March 12, 2010 by cbe
ARARAT (#101), do not thank me. I want the truth to be revealed. I am ready to accept any genocide after all the archives, that Turkey,Armenia and any other countries have, examined by historians. But are you ready to accept if the result is like "there were no genocide". Are you ready to accept the truth no matter what the result is?

I am kindly asking from all the commenters that "why the Armenia does not open its archives although the Turkey is opening its".

If there are some research to make about this issue, then it will be the best to make the research by reviewing all the documents that exist? Do I sound right?

I am saying it again. I dont know whether there were genocide or not but I am ready to accept any genocide. But are you ready to accept any truth that will reveal after Armenia opens its archives?
14:55 March 12, 2010 by ARARAT
cbe(#104), didn't you notice that we all here discussing the truth to be recognized?

Armenia has nothing to hide, the fact are abundant and you can even find the in national archieves of England, Russia, France, The Vatican end etc.

Regarding Armenian archieves they are open for everybody, you can find them if you wish in Genocide Museum in Armenia, even you can visitthis link : http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/index.php

I am saying you once again, we even DO NOT DOUBT the fact there there was a GENOCIDE, but if you need proofs for that go and see everywhere in the World.

What you are saying now is different form the meaning you impose.

We do not affraid of any facts, but it is offensive to say question your fact just because Turkey wants this. If you have questions go and ask, we do not have doubts about our past.
15:26 March 12, 2010 by Ucar
ararat 105 or whatever . Not a word to say, Turkish history is all clear that we have not violated people as long as they did not harm us.. If you say that mutual killing or war situation is genocide then be my guest.. every country is somehow has genocide in its past.. you just wanna see the truth you believe not the reality stands in the past. you do not doubt about genocide fact but I doubt you and people like have enough logic or brain to analyse these kind of issues... i no doubt you have not but raising hands to decide rather than reading and researchin facts...
16:13 March 12, 2010 by cbe
ARARAT(#105), whether we accept that or not, there is one country,Turkey, which does not accept the fact that there was a genocide. And this country, wants Armenia to open archives.

Okey, you do not have doubts about your past and Turkey does not have doubts about its past. So? You should let your historians convince Turkish historians instead of your politicians convince other politicians?

The thing that you are saying, "DO NOT DOUBT the fact that there was a genocide", totally made me think that you are not approaching the issue objectively and you are moving on with your emotions.

I am not the one who will decide whether there was a genocide by looking at the documents. Because I am not a historian. If you are a historian, then you are very welcome.

I, however, had a look at the webpage you mentioned and I think, it is a good progress in order to inform people about the 1915.

I will be convinced if a council, which is formed by the historians from Armenia, Turkey and if needed from any other country, says "yes, it was a genocide" or "no it was not a genocide" after examining all the documents, photographs and any other thing that humanity have now. Otherwise, just saying "ohh, there was a genocide, you better accept that" or " we did not cause a genocide, it was a war OK?" makes no sense.

What is the wrong thing about the idea that a council formed by historians decide whether there was a genocide or not? Just please say one thing which proves it is wrong becuse bla bla bla bla.....

I am saying it again, I am ready to accept any genocide. But let us let historians decide it.
17:05 March 12, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
>>I am saying it again, I am ready to accept any genocide. But let us let >>historians decide it.

We are living in the same country. Could you tell me that you find the state or any other institute here, in Turkey sincere?

How can we explain "let the historian resolve this" thesis while we are "killing" Armenians or harrasing the ones who try to discuss in Turkey?

This is a simple brainwashing of Turkish state and you are acting in the group of lambs and I am the black sheep.

Of course, I am asking same above questions to Armenian side too.

Personally, forcing an exile without sustaining the base necessities of humanbeing smells something like genocide or something really close to this and I embrace my past unlike you.
17:34 March 12, 2010 by ARARAT
Ucar (106) >

How you explain the whole nation suffering from such a pain falsely? How you will explain the whole nation spreaded around the world? How you will look into the eyes of our grandmothers and grandfathers who saw it and say "it was just a war".

How you are going to define the actions of your ancestors?

Then I doubt that you and people like you have enough brain or logic to explain or even try to analyse the GENOCIDE!!!!

No armenian can forgive this, because I cannot see my grandfathers and grandmothers crying from the pain, suffering that they lost their families, homes, brothers and sisters. Seeing how they were killed!!!!

Do you think this is something that can be discussed?

I am not blaming the Turk people that live nowadays, just be human, recognize the "mistakes" if I can call the such, that your ancestors did. This is all that we want.
17:44 March 12, 2010 by cbe
jazzlllove(#108)

Please look my first message in this page, (#93), then decide what I am thinking about the goverment or any instution in Turkey.

Yes, you are right. Hrant Dink was killed in Turkey but there are some people who showed and still showing strong reaction to this."http://images.google.com/images?q=hepimiz%20hrant%C4%B1z&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:tr:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=tr&tab=wi"

I know, it is not enough but I am so sad that it happened and sharing the sorrow of these people.

But, an international committee, which is under the control of UN or any other strong foundation, may discuss the issue. Why does it sound so impossible?

Or let us continue by voting this historical issue in parlaments?

I respect your decision about the genocide but I think I deserve the same respect from you.

By the way, you do not even know me but still you have some opinions about in which group I am acting. Hah, you made me laugh man.
18:12 March 12, 2010 by Elton John
Norrlands Turk: Broken links? You know, lying on the internet is stupid as one can easily check the truth behind statements. Why not check the page again, you'll see that they refer to Harvard and other universities and genocide journals around the world. So again, why should I trust you when world experts (people who are researchers in the field, you know) say the opposite? Again, here is the link: http://forum.japantoday.com/viewtopic.php?p=1075245#p1075245
18:19 March 12, 2010 by jazzIIIlove
Are you really optimistic indeed that historians resolve this issue? Suppose, here, naysayyers lose their only argument after the historians approve this as genocide. Do you think the state will accept the results after 80 years of brainwashing in Turkey? I don't think so. The vast majority of turks will be shocked and will lose their confidence to state since the disutopian arguments are ruined and there will be mass riots against this result and harrasing again towards armenians in Turkey. For this, let's check for 5-6 September issue. Could you explain here what happened in 5-6 September in İstanbul?

Gladly, the link you provide shows the reaction and proves not all Turks are brainwashed.
18:28 March 12, 2010 by phantomdissenter
CBE,

You are a day late and a dollar short, as they say in America. That means that what you want, which is for historians to make the conclusion, has already been done. There are dozens and dozens of books written by non-Armenians, not only about the fact of the Genocide, but on comparative studies comparing it to other Genocides, studying the causes of the Genocide, studying its psychological impact on survivors, studying the humanitarian aspects of the history of the Armenian Genocide, and studying the history behind Turkey's present denial of the Genocide. You should read some of these books before coming here and saying you don't know whether it was or it was not, and that you want a "historical commission" to make the decision. It's not our (Armenians') fault that Turks don't want to read the vast fields of literature that already exist regarding the Armenian Genocide. Even the "historical commission" that you seek has been done. It was done in 2003 between Turks and Armenians, and again the conclusion was a Genocide. When you come here and demand things that have already been done, you just sound foolish and ignorant. The historians have spoken load and clear. It's up to you whether you want to listen or ignore!
20:46 March 12, 2010 by svenskdod
I read somewhere that Hitler based his Holocaust on this event... Just something to think about...
21:08 March 12, 2010 by sissygirl
svenskdod: yeah, I read that too and someone posted it waaaay up there earlier. Hm I'm #115 comment.

I've noticed this...countries that lost in the wars are accused of committing massacres and attempted genocide.

The Armenians will never forget just like the Jews will never forget.

Bt the way, the schools in the US do in fact teach that the govt wrongly killed and stole land from the Natives/Indians. Today they receive educational benefits just for being Indians and they have their own courts on their reservations. I live near a reservation. I spend a bit of money there buying liquor which is legal on the reservation but not in the surrounding town. I can say that in my part of the US, we respect Indians.
21:29 March 12, 2010 by American1
In 1932 Rafael Lemkin coin the term "Genocide" with regards of the mass killing of the armenians in their homeland (Which now is called Anatolia) eastern Turkey.Armenians were famous especialy the originators of many architectural styles (Churches Et.c.)most of all the Gottic style of archtecture.The oldest gothic cathedral in the world is in Echmiazin build in 331 AD and still functioning as a church.Winston Churchil used the term "Holocaust" for the first time to describe the mass killing of Armenians by the turks.Historcal documents show there was 1.5 million armenians killed by the ottoman turks.The norwegian F.Nansen had witnesed and study the armenian genocide.
22:50 March 12, 2010 by w_t_f
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/
23:37 March 12, 2010 by Alasdair MacCorquodale
All credit to Sweden. I would now like the Japanese government to fully acknowledge the atrocity of the 'Rape Of Nanking' in 1930s China.

It has always mystified me why the Turkish Government has been in denial for so long. Many nations, including my own, have done things they should have been ashamed of. But it is better all round that the truth come out.
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