Mike Chambers

code = joy

On Adobe, Flash CS5 and iPhone Applications

with 237 comments

A little over a week ago Apple released a new draft of their iPhone developer program license which contained the following clause:

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

Essentially, this has the effect of restricting applications built with a number of technologies, including Unity, Titanium, MonoTouch, and Flash CS5. While it appears that Apple may selectively enforce the terms, it is our belief that Apple will enforce those terms as they apply to content created with Flash CS5. Developers should be prepared for Apple to remove existing content and applications (100+ on the store today) created with Flash CS5 from the iTunes store.

We will still be shipping the ability to target the iPhone and iPad in Flash CS5. However, we are not currently planning any additional investments in that feature.

To be clear, during the entire development cycle of Flash CS5, the feature complied with Apple’s licensing terms. However, as developers for the iPhone have learned, if you want to develop for the iPhone you have to be prepared for Apple to reject or restrict your development at anytime, and for seemingly any reason. In just the past week Apple also changed its licensing terms to essentially prohibit ad networks other than its own on the iPhone, and it came to light that Apple had rejected an application from a Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist on editorial grounds (which Apple later said was a “mistake”).

The primary goal of Flash has always been to enable cross browser, platform and device development. The cool web game that you build can easily be targeted and deployed to multiple platforms and devices. However, this is the exact opposite of what Apple wants. They want to tie developers down to their platform, and restrict their options to make it difficult for developers to target other platforms. There is plenty of commentary online about this, so I won’t belabor the point, but I have included some links below that cover it more depth:

So, was all of the work on the iPhone packager a waste of time and resources? No, I don’t believe so. We proved that:

  1. There is no technical reason that Flash can’t run on the iPhone
  2. Developers can create well performing and compelling content for the device with Flash

However, more importantly, the teams implemented features (such as hardware acceleration and Ahead of Time compilation) that we will now be able to leverage for other devices and platforms. We have gained knowledge and experience that are being directly applied to Flash Player 10.1 and Adobe AIR 2.0 for other mobile operating systems.

Fortunately, the iPhone isn’t the only game in town. Android based phones have been doing well behind the success of the Motorola Droid and Nexus One, and there are a number of Android based tablets slated to be released this year. We are working closely with Google to bring both Flash Player 10.1 and Adobe AIR 2.0 to these devices, and thus far, the results have been very promising.

Because this is Flash, it is rather trivial to port games created with Flash that target the iPhone to target other operating systems, such as Android. At FlashCamp San Francisco on Friday night, David Wadhwani (GM and VP of the Flash Platform) showed off a number of games running on Android that had been created with Flash, many of which had already been deployed as iPhone games. My personal favorites were Chroma Circuit and GridShock created by Josh Tynjala of Bowler Hat Games. Both games were originally developed as browser based games and were then updated to target the iPhone (Chroma Circuit was featured on the iTunes app store). Josh recently updated and optimized them to target Flash Player on Android, and the results have been impressive. There have already been a couple of developers who have moved their Flash based content from the iPhone to Flash on Android (couple of examples below) and I expect that this is a trend we will be seeing more and more of.

Here are some links to developers who originally targeted the iPhone with their Flash content and are now deploying to Android:

Both Flash Player 10.1 and Adobe AIR 2.0 for Android are in pre-release testing. If you are interested in being notified when we expand the testing, you can sign up at:

Personally, I am going to shift all of my mobile focus from iPhone to Android based devices (I am particularly interested in the Android based tablets coming out this year) and not focus on the iPhone stuff as much anymore. This includes both Flash based, and Objective-C based iPhone development. While I actually enjoy working in Objective-C, I don’t have any current plans to update and / or maintain my existing native iPhone applications (including the AS3 Reference Guide, and Timetrocity). As I wrote previously, I think that the closed system that Apple is trying to create is bad for the industry, developers and ultimately consumers, and that is not something that I want to actively promote. Don’t worry though, I definitely plan to get both Pew Pew and Bacon Unicorn Adventure running on Android and am planning on open sourcing both.

We are at the beginning of a significant change in the industry, and I believe that ultimately open platforms will win out over the type of closed, locked down platform that Apple is trying to create. I am excited about Flash Player 10.1 and Adobe AIR 2.0 and all of the opportunities that they will make available to Flash developers across multiple platforms (desktop, Android, Palm, Windows Phone 7, RIM, etc…).

NOTE : Please keep comments constructive and on topic. Off topic comments will be moderated / deleted. (And yes, commenting that “Flash SUXXORS!” or calling me a “wanker” are considered off topic).

Written by mikechambers

April 20th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

Posted in General

Tagged with , , ,

237 Responses to 'On Adobe, Flash CS5 and iPhone Applications'

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  1. Great post Mike.

    Keep up the good work!

    JA

  2. Very well written and articulated post, I agree with everything and I too am looking forward to targeting open platforms, like Android, using the Flash Platform. The upcoming Android support and Flash Player plugin coming to TV set top boxes and who know what other screen devices makes me much more excited than trying to develop for a single, closed, restrictive platform, like iPhone OS.

    Omar Gonzalez

    20 Apr 10 at 4:02 pm

  3. do we actually know if/how apple will be able to tel if an app was created with flash?
    _DB

    dave

    20 Apr 10 at 4:08 pm

  4. The error in the reasoning for this whole piece is summarised at the end… it’s not Flash vs iPhone… It’s Flash vs HTML5/CSS3. Apple are saying use our framework natively, or use an open W3C standard. You are saying use Flash or we’ll focus elsewhere.

    You are right, times are changing. At this point as a designer I look to Adobe to create the best authoring tools on the market (I’ll be happily paying for Master CS5 upgrade), and to let go of their browser plugin and start contributing to the actual open standards.

    Buggles

    20 Apr 10 at 4:08 pm

  5. Mike,
    Total curiosity, but I imagine someone at Adobe and Apple must talk now and again, maybe Kevin L and Steve J? Was the topic ever brought up in discussions with Apple “Hey..we’re going to use LLVM to build native iPhone apps. Whatcha think?”

    I love working on the Flash platform, and I’m also excited about seeing what happens with the android tablets (sure wish they’d get to the market). But I also have an iPad and love it. I also think that while the iPhone OS market is “small”, its huge as far as mind share goes. I would hope that Adobe will still try to work with Apple to make the Packager for iPhone “Apple legal”..whatever it takes. Maybe instead of going straight to .ipa, it will involve creating an Xcode project? Abandoning the project won’t lessen the client’s asking for iPhone apps. I just hope that the Adobe tool set can be leveraged in some way.

    John

    20 Apr 10 at 4:09 pm

  6. It is disappointing that Apple has chosen this path. I’ve always been worried about Adobe focusing so much on iPhone during this release cycle and not on Android or other platforms. I’m glad to hear that the engineering efforts made by the AIR and Flash teams are not in vain. AIR for Android, in particular, is very promising!

    Here’s to a bright future – let’s leave the old baggage behind. I’m sticking with “intermediate layers” and “substandard apps”. Many thanks to Apple for pushing so many creative developers toward a more open and respectful platform.

    Joseph Labrecque

    20 Apr 10 at 4:10 pm

  7. Well said Mike. Nice.

    Shawn Pucknell

    20 Apr 10 at 4:12 pm

  8. Very well said. One thing that worries me, for the short term, is that “iPhone” is a buzzword. Unfortunately, buzzword compliance helps pay the bills when you are a freelance or small-time developer. Apple effectively destroyed the hopes, dreams, and restful nights of Freelance Flash/Flex developers everywhere.

    I have hopes for Android, but it feels so much like catching up and not enough like leading the pack.

    In the long term it won’t matter. The industry will adjust and we’ll either all being coding objective-c or some other language for some new platform. Good software will prevail.

    David

    20 Apr 10 at 4:15 pm

  9. I am glad to hear/read about this. I was rather worried about all of this talk about flash falling behind vs HTML5. I had almost bought a iphone, then the new announcement of the OS 4.0 came out with the banning of not only flash, but Unity as well with others, saved myself a couple hundred dollars. But with the new android OS coming around the corner, it could blow the iphone out of the water. Can’t wait to upgrade my phone. Thanks for the blog post!

    Ken

    20 Apr 10 at 4:17 pm

  10. @Buggles


    The error in the reasoning for this whole piece is summarised at the end… it’s not Flash vs iPhone… It’s Flash vs HTML5/CSS3. Apple are saying use our framework natively, or use an open W3C standard

    I think that given Apple’s recent actions on this and other areas around the iPhone, it would be naive to expect that if HTML 5 (a cross platform development technology) were to begin to threaten Apple’s close system, that Apple would not also take moves to restrict it.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 4:18 pm

  11. Love it! Thumbs up!

    flashopen

    20 Apr 10 at 4:19 pm

  12. I am excited about the future of Android. I hope there are some nice Android tablets soon. I would love to be able to use my Flash and AIR skills to deliver great content to SOME KIND of cool mobile device!

    Brian Sexton

    20 Apr 10 at 4:20 pm

  13. Well said Mike!

    Ammar Mardawi

    20 Apr 10 at 4:20 pm

  14. This is a very biased post and a weak response to the problem. Bottom line is Adobe were warned to knock off immature passive aggressive behavior or Apple would respond in kind. The warning was ignored and as a result Adobe has polluted the well for the industry.

    Instead of coming out with “ya know our bad, Apple we apologise let’s make up” negotiations, staffers are now attempting to insight a digital riot against the evil Apple empire

    It’s time Adobe grew up and stop this whole Flash is pure trust us PR. You have a really good product but your positioning is all wrong and it’s leaving you guys exposed to attacks from all vectors – Microsoft, Google and Apple are not aligned with Adobe and you guys need to get more technical dependencies from one of these titans in order to secure the future of flash.

    If HTML5 actually gets momentum it will interupt Adobes value proposition and by all accounts all vnext operating systems are making strategic bets on it as it increases their developer base organically and with little seed investment.

    knock off the anti apple campaign and you guys may pickup some lost ground. Keep pushing and you’ll get bitchslapped for being aggressive again. Two companies fighting is like watching two parents argue in front of their kids. If you argue do it behind closed doors and not out in the open

    Scott
    Former Microsoft Adobe compete lead
    sent from my iPhone

    Ps
    don’t punk out put this comment live as I’ll blog it either way :)

    ————————————————
    Mike Chambers:


    Bottom line is Adobe were warned to knock off immature passive aggressive behavior or Apple would respond in kind. The warning was ignored and as a result Adobe has polluted the well for the industry.

    You are making some assumptions that you are not qualified to make.

    As I stated in a comment earlier, Adobe regularly has conversations with Apple, on a number of topics. However, the specifics of those conversations are not something that we can discuss.

    Furthermore, as I stated in my post, everything we did was allowed under the developer licensing terms at the time, and there were a number of other precedents and technologies that suggested that Apple was fine with this workflow.

    Finally, Apple not only approved over 100 games and content created with Flash, but featured a number of them on the iTunes store.


    If HTML5 actually gets momentum it will interupt Adobes value proposition

    That assumes that Flash will not continue to evolve and innovate.

    You might not want to make so many assumptions…

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    Scott Barnes

    20 Apr 10 at 4:21 pm

  15. talking of Open systems, is the Flash Player and AIR for Android going to be open sourced? Come on Adobe. Your use of this ‘Open Source’ phrase isnt’t exactly true

  16. 100% agree with what you’ve wrote.. I had planned on teaching iPhone/iPad development next year to my degree students (September 2010), instead I will be focusing on Adobe AIR instead.

    FP10.1 and AIR2 show so much promise I can’t wait..

    Derek O'Brien

    20 Apr 10 at 4:34 pm

  17. HTML 5 is a markup language. CSS 3 is a style definition language. Add to those JavaScript for programming and you will have three languages that are not consistently supported across browsers and which do not offer the full range of development and deployment possibilities that Flash offers.

    Video is another issue. Until the majority of Web browsers in use support the SAME video format, it isn’t viable for majority deployment. We have a long way to go to reach that point.

    Why do people think Apple is so interested in so-called open standards (meaning de jure standards rather than de facto standards) when the company is obviously interested in controlling its platforms and user experiences as much as it can? Apple wants us to use what it makes or sanctions. Is that FLV? No, obviously. Is that H.264? Kind of. Is that QuickTime? iTunes? BINGO!

    Brian Sexton

    20 Apr 10 at 4:34 pm

  18. Apple’s loss. This merely open’s up the lane further for Android to go whizzing by Apple’s mobile devices like Microsoft did in 1995 and took over the PC Market. Google and other companies like Dell and HP will do this whole thing right and leave the decision up to the end user as to what product / technology he or she wants on their device. Here’s to Open Platforms and The Freedom of Information.. the internet was built on this ya know.. Cheers!

    _mark

    20 Apr 10 at 4:41 pm

  19. I’ve got an iPhone but i don’t feel it as mine. It’s like im renting a piece of hardware.

    Felix

    20 Apr 10 at 4:44 pm

  20. @William from Lagos


    talking of Open systems, is the Flash Player and AIR for Android going to be open sourced? Come on Adobe. Your use of this ‘Open Source’ phrase isnt’t exactly true

    We havent announced any plans to open source the entire Flash Player, although core parts of it have been open sourced (including Tamarin, the ActionScript virtual machine).

    Regardless, I dont speak anywhere in here about open source. I do talk about open platforms, those that give developers the freedom to develop and deploy content without having a single entity acting as the gatekeeper.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 4:51 pm

  21. Good post Mike,

    The winner here, is clearly the Android. We were going to port our app to iPhone using flash, now we will just use different hardware.

    I really don’t see how Apple gain in situations like this. They just cost themselves lots of hardware sales and lots of revenue from CS5 based apps, just so they can control things.

    Steve Jobs should watch his old presentation where he talks about how important relationships are and the bickering isn’t worth it.

    Dale Fraser

    20 Apr 10 at 4:58 pm

  22. Well put, thank you Mike!

    Mathias

    20 Apr 10 at 5:15 pm

  23. @scottbarnes:

    Apple is being the immature company here. For the past 10 years, the internet and internet related technologies have become more and more open.

    OSX became based on *nix allowing for more programs to be developed for the Mac. The Macintosh hardware used Intel, allowing a person to install Windows on Apple hardware.

    Most browsers have opened up to plugins and open development. Internet based applications are almost the norm now, with open “access anywhere” development allowing for sites such as icloud or google docs.

    However now, Apple has decided that they would prefer to go back to the 1980s were if you used Apple products, you were isolated from the rest of the tech market. It doesn’t matter if you are Adobe, Google, Unity3D, or a no-name start up company. Apple has made it clear that it is either their way or the highway. I, for one, am choosing the highway. Mike Chambers has laid out a well referenced blog post, explaining why others should do the same.

    daganev

    20 Apr 10 at 5:26 pm

  24. @John


    Total curiosity, but I imagine someone at Adobe and Apple must talk now and again, maybe Kevin L and Steve J? Was the topic ever brought up in discussions with Apple “Hey..we’re going to use LLVM to build native iPhone apps. Whatcha think?”

    Yes, we regularly have conversations with Apple on a number of topics. However, the specifics of those conversations are not something that we can discuss.

    Ill also point out that everything we did was allowed under the developer licensing terms at the time, and there were a number of other precedents and technologies that suggested that Apple was fine with this workflow.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 5:44 pm

  25. closure. Moving on.. Thanks :)

    Brad Manderscheid

    20 Apr 10 at 5:57 pm

  26. Great post Mike!

    On May 18, 1998, the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) and 20 U.S. states consolidated civil actions against Microsoft. The issue central to the case was whether Microsoft was allowed to bundle its Internet Explorer web browser software with its Windows operating system. Certainly, its strategy was responsible for Microsoft’s victory in the browser wars as every Windows user had a copy of Internet Explorer, and Windows was, and is, the dominant desktop operating system. Before this Microsoft’s strategy, Netscape was a much more used browser than Internet Explorer. Not only Internet Explorer kills Netscape in the browser war, but Windows Media Player kills RealPlayer in the media player war, for example.

    Now, the question is: Where is the USA DOJ against Apple? Microsoft cannot build Internet Explorer into Windows, but Apple can make any restrictions to the iPhone developers and to its platform? In these days, iPhone domain in smartphones market is comparable with the Windows domain in desktop operating systems. Apple can restrict the developers to the iPhone SDK that, normally, only runs on Mac OS X operating system. Apple can restrict developers from using private APIs, but it can use for developing its own apps. Is this fair for the competition? Apple can change de rules anytime, and the competitors must pay the losses. Not only Adobe loss its investments in Adobe Flash CS 5 iPhone Packager, but Novell too with MonoTouch, and other players. Certainly, many developers around world waste time and money developing iPhone apps without Objective-C, C++, C, or JavaScript.

    Cheers,

    Rogério Moraes de Carvalho

  27. “Ill also point out that everything we did was allowed under the developer licensing terms at the time, and there were a number of other precedents and technologies that suggested that Apple was fine with this workflow.”

    You posted this twice. Would you care to go into these “other precedents and technologies” which made you believe Apple would be okay with Flash applets being deployed on the iPhone? How were these “other” precedents more convincing to you than the very straightforward comments by Jobs and several high-up Apple execs at last WWDC that Flash was not to be allowed on the iPhone, ever, in any way shape or form?

    I find your non-denial that Apple made this clear to you somewhat unconvincing. It was clear to the rest of us (Apple iPhone and OS X developers); how did everyone at Adobe get the wrong idea there? Surely, if Apple was telling you guys it was really okay to go forward with this while they were telling the rest of us that there are two and only two safe routes for iPhone development (web techs using Safari, or native APIs using Cocoa), you’d be able to say something a little more convincing than just that you were in compliance with the license.

    Call me unconvinced.

    As a side note, above you said that someone was naive to believe that when HTML 5 takes off Apple wouldn’t shut that down too. Glad to see Adobe has been studying Microsoftian FUD tactics so well. HTML5 doesn’t threaten Apple because how well it acts with the machine capabilities is wholly in Apple’s control (Safari just needs to be updated). Flash doesn’t fit that criteria; how soon would Adobe be able to support the iPhone 4.0 features in your Flash-to-iPhone compiler?

    Tom Dibble

    20 Apr 10 at 7:08 pm

  28. I think Jean-Louis Gassée has a pretty good understanding of Apple’s motives
    http://www.mondaynote.com/2010/04/11/the-adobe-apple-flame-war/
    In the long run I just hope the obvious breakdown in communication between Adobe-Apple doesn’t hurt both developers and consumers.

    eco_bach

    20 Apr 10 at 7:11 pm

  29. For what it’s worth, I will encourage my employer(s) now and in the future to NOT develop an iPhone app. My business case is this:

    Considering the clear history of apple, we don’t know whether they are going to invent something new that competes with our app, and then require that all users go through Apple for the given functionality. As a business, we have to evaluate the risk of creating software that cannot reach our customers. Apple gives us no way to calculate this risk.

    Harry B. Garland

    20 Apr 10 at 7:14 pm

  30. I agree 100%. I have personally turned a few people off to Apple just by talking about the censorship issue with Mark Fiore’s application. The colleagues, friends and family I have talked to have unanimously agreed that they deserve the right to choose what content they think is appropriate and don’t want the device manufacturer determining what content they allow to be viewed. How long will it be before, they disallow access to certain websites for the same reason?

    While I like a lot of the Android devices, I am most excited about the new Windows Phone 7. I hope there are already plans for AIR on that device. From what I understand, apps for Phone 7 are built with Silverlight. I really hope that we don’t have a similar problem with Microsoft.

    Mike – Can you comment?

    Rob McKeown

    20 Apr 10 at 7:18 pm

  31. I’m sure this is ridiculously naive, but…

    Dreamteam Partnership:
    Adobe + Sony
    -> Improved Flash experience and app distribution on ericsson phones and PS3 (mobile and TV devices). Flash-based ‘app store(s)’ for Sony’s phones and PS3. Gives Sony a leg up vs Xbox Live content and vs iPhone (would have to be spoiling for a response to iPod killing the Walkman?), gives Adobe more access to mobile device _and_ the livingroom/media centre.

    I just want to be able to build something I can put on my phone and my TV!

    JT

    20 Apr 10 at 7:20 pm

  32. Nevermind that this entire feature was designed as an end-run around Apple’s “no interpreters” policy. The intent from the start was no non-native application platforms – no Java, no Flash, no emulators, no .Net – just native applications or HTML5. Adobe found a technicality – cross compile it into native code – and Apple put the kibosh on it.

    The change to section 3.3.1 may have been a bit of a nasty move – especially the timing – but it can’t have been unexpected. Anyone who thought this was a good idea was kidding themselves – *especially* management at Adobe, who had to have been in discussions with Apple prior to 4.0’s announcement. And if you weren’t – it’s because you knew they’d say no.

    Meanwhile, the other 184,900 applications in the app store are unaffected – because they took the path that Apple told them to all along. Only those who are trying to take shortcuts that Apple frowned on since day 1 are getting burned. I can’t say I have a lot of sympathy.

    Joshua Ochs

    20 Apr 10 at 7:31 pm

  33. @Joshua Ochs


    Nevermind that this entire feature was designed as an end-run around Apple’s “no interpreters” policy. The intent from the start was no non-native application platforms – no Java, no Flash, no emulators, no .Net – just native applications or HTML5. Adobe found a technicality – cross compile it into native code – and Apple put the kibosh on it.

    There are no interpreters included in iPhone applications created with Flash CS5.

    Adobe was not the first take this path for compiling applications to the iPhone.

    We followed the licensing terms as specified by Apple. Prior to Flash cross compiling to native iPhone apps, there were a number of other solutions, which had been fairly successful. Apple did not appear to have a fundamental issue with this technique.

    As far as whether Apple wanted Flash on the iPhone or not, that is completely moot as far as this discussion is concerned. Flash CS5 created a non-interpreted native application. The Flash Player for mobile Safari is something completely different.


    Anyone who thought this was a good idea was kidding themselves – *especially* management at Adobe, who had to have been in discussions with Apple prior to 4.0’s announcement

    As I stated above we are constantly in discussions with Apple about a number of topics. Regardless, you seem to be making some assumptions about what the content of those conversations were, and Im guessing that you are not really in a position to do that (at least not with any accuracy).

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 7:47 pm

  34. The only worthwhile thing Adobe can do at this point is get full featured Flash out for Android as soon as possible. If it is great the that will be a competitive advantage against Apple and do more damage than all this whining on blogs. If it is anything less than amazing Apple will be vindicated.

    John Harrison

    20 Apr 10 at 7:47 pm

  35. Isn’t this just switching one closed environment for another? Apple wants developers to use Xcode, Adobe wants them to use Flash. If you use Flash to develop and target multiple devices, aren’t you then locked into the Flash development platform?

    Apologies if I have that wrong, I haven’t used Flash since MX, but it seems like this is less about controlled platforms and more about who has control, Apple or Adobe.

    Neither of those are better or worse for developers or users, so we really shouldn’t be caught in the middle of the political manipulations.

    Rene Ritchie

    20 Apr 10 at 7:48 pm

  36. It’s a lot like rejecting a liver just because it’s not your own.

    JV

    JV

    20 Apr 10 at 7:51 pm

  37. I find this article pretty disingenous. There are certainly a spectrum of views as to why Apple is doing what it’s doing, and you’re merely picking the most self-serving interpretation.

    When UI widgets in Flash behave correctly on the Mac — or Windows for that matter (e.g. try scrolling Adobe Store pages using a trackpad on a Mac) then you can claim Flash is a decent cross-platform development platform. Right now, Flash provides a worse-than-lowest-common denominator end-user experience on every platform. Why would Apple want that?

    Tonio Loewald

    20 Apr 10 at 7:52 pm

  38. [...] Chambers, in a more rational posting than the usual from Adobe employees. But I have a comments on it anyway: They want to tie developers down to their [...]

  39. @Rene Ritchie


    Isn’t this just switching one closed environment for another? Apple wants developers to use Xcode, Adobe wants them to use Flash.

    Adobe doesn’t act as the gatekeeper to what content you can deploy to the Flash Player.

    Anyone can create and deploy content for the Flash Player, and there is no entity that acts as a gate keeper to the Flash Plugin approving content. Anyone can create their own player, their own content, as well as their own authoring tools.

    Apple has created a platform where it has the sole authority on what content is available, as well as how that content is created. I wont go into all of the examples of how they leverage this control (there are a couple of links in the post), but a quick google search will turn up plenty of examples.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 8:06 pm

  40. [...] to Daring Fireball.) Tagged as: flash, hypocrisy, iPhone, Proprietary tools, Software Development No Comments Sorry, [...]

  41. @Tonio Loewald


    When UI widgets in Flash behave correctly on the Mac

    If you look at the vast majority of existing content created with Flash CS5 that targets the iPhone, you will find that it is mostly games. Games which generally have custom UIs and controls (regardless of which technology they are created in.

    So, the argument that having games created in Flash somehow means all content and applications on iPhone (regardless of which technology is used) would have to adhere to some lowest common denominator experience, doesnt really make much sense.

    If developers create inferior applications, with poor user experiences, then those applications are going to fail, regardless of which technology they were created with. I think a quick gander on the app store will show there are plenty of apps with crappy user interfaces, and user experiences that were created in Objective-C.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 8:15 pm

  42. ‘If developers create inferior applications, with poor user experiences, then those applications are going to fail, regardless of which technology they were created with.”

    Oh really? Internet Explorer? Windows?

    There are many reasons things fail or succeed. User experience is only one of them.

    eddie

    20 Apr 10 at 8:26 pm

  43. [...] “We will still be shipping the ability to target the iPhone and iPad in Flash CS5,” said Adobe’s Mike Chambers. “However, we are not currently planning any additional investments in that [...]

  44. @Rene
    Hello, i was a fellow Flash MX user too in old days :)

    Right now, Flash has evolved with many brilliant innovations that HTML5+js, Silverlight & JavaFX always trying to imitate (i am Flash, Java, and .Net developer btw, so i know). And with Flash’s free Flex SDK, i can create AS3 code anywhere (even in notepad) and compile it in any platform (Windows, Mac). Building flash swf by code doesn’t restrict it to only developing in one platform nor buy any expensive thing.

    What is the definition of open environment then? Is it cross-platform or open source? Building linux application also lock you into one platform/OS even if you use QT for cross platform compilation you must tested it thoroughly. Being open source sometime doesnt work for your businness model either.What i know is, we’re developer who build solution. We’re locked into our accumulated knowledge which we learn from experience. And since learning takes time, we usually stick to one platform environment. For me, i want to create game played with many people on web, and thus i choose Flash.

    It’s true flash player is controlled by Adobe, but at least they keep listening to developers. Oh btw, if flash doesnt keep innovating, i will of course look into another option since long time ago. Google looks awesome with it’s O3D demo.

    Inas Luthfi

    20 Apr 10 at 8:48 pm

  45. Good post Mike.

    Once the player and AIR are on Android et al, Flash developers (myself included) need to begin focusing more on performance and usability. If we don’t, we may truly be cooked when all is said and done.

    Mike Britton

    20 Apr 10 at 9:18 pm

  46. Great Post Mike.

    Is there any chance that the iPhone packager in the CS5 release will get updated into an Android packager. Seems that is a logical step to take if Apple stands by this new terms.

    We are all looking out for the next Android device which can lead from the front, possibly a Google Tablet.

    Juwal Bose

    20 Apr 10 at 9:20 pm

  47. I’m so disappointed that there is no HTML5 export in Flash CS5. Flash makes Web apps. Now that there are standardized Web apps, that is what I want to export my Flash documents as. Not iPhone apps. There is already a free rapid applcatin development kit for iPhone apps. It’s Web apps that need tools. Adobe has left a void in their own wheelhouse. Please consider getting back to basics.

    Hamranhansenhansen

    20 Apr 10 at 9:50 pm

  48. Nice post Mike.

    I don’t know why Apple did something like that. But I know it’s not end of the world.

    Android and Symbian based devices are/would-be majority in market.

    A lot of problems can be solved using W3C standards, which were not even imaginable without Flash, years back.

    I am sure, Flash would get better, innovation would happen and it would always be ahead.

    Let’s not waste our energy in this flame/blame war, instead focus on building great stuff for all platforms that support Flash Runtime.

    Let’s show the world, Flash should be integral part of any platform. And I am sure, Apple or others would have to change their terms, if they want to be competitive.

    -abdul

    Abdul Qabiz

    20 Apr 10 at 9:52 pm

  49. @Juwal Bose


    Is there any chance that the iPhone packager in the CS5 release will get updated into an Android packager. Seems that is a logical step to take if Apple stands by this new terms.

    We are working on Adobe AIR for Android, which will allow you to create standalone apps for Android. We are looking at using some of the Ahead of Time compilation techniques that we used for the iPhone, but have not finalized that aspect of it yet.

    You can sign up for the AIR for Android beta by following the link in my post.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 9:55 pm

  50. I just wonder What would have happened if Windows OS was selective as what Iphone OS is now?

    Mohammed Fasil

    20 Apr 10 at 9:58 pm

  51. Wow, I did’t expect Adobe to roll over and play dead that easy.

    If I were Adobe I would stop releasing _anything_ compatible with osx. And just let the problem sort itself out.

    oos

    20 Apr 10 at 10:32 pm

  52. @Tom Dibble


    Would you care to go into these “other precedents and technologies” which made you believe Apple would be okay with Flash applets being deployed on the iPhone?

    There are no “Flash Applets” being deployed to the iPhone. Flash CS5 compiled SWFs into native iPhone applications. As far as other precedents and technologies, that is easy. There are quite a few technologies which allow developers to use other languages and development tools to create iPhone applications, including Unity, MonoTouch, Titanium, iPhone Wax and many more. Furthermore, content created with those toolchains have been frequently featured by Apple on the app store (as have a number of apps created with Flash CS5).


    I find your non-denial that Apple made this clear to you somewhat unconvincing.

    Unfortunately, it is not my position give you the details of private conversations between Apple and Adobe.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    20 Apr 10 at 10:59 pm

  53. [...] a less-than-shocking turn of events, Adobe’s Mike Chambers announced in his blog Tuesday that Adobe will cease its efforts to bring Flash-powered apps to the iPhone, following the [...]

  54. Thanks for the post Mike.

    I think the big winner in this is Google. Apple’s got momentum and a business need to protect their position, but their approach is increasing perceived risk amongst developers. While I don’t think cross-platform development is a panacea, I do think that there is a lot of good software tools that developers lose access to under section 3.3.1 (CS5 being one of them).

    Also, I think it is unfortunate that Adobe did not pursue the path of CS5 generating an XCode project (with or without a packager). It seems less legally vulnerable and brings alot of value to development. Perhaps that feature takes a back seat if Adobe is moving resources into getting the Flash player onto Android, Blackberry, etc sooner.

    Anyhow, there is nothing to stop adding XCode output in CS5 later or with outside partners.

    On a final note, it would be interesting if someone made a source-code level converter from XCode project to Flash Builder project. Anyone want to comment on that idea?

    I go into all this in a bit more detail at my blog.

    Ira Hochman

    20 Apr 10 at 11:21 pm

  55. Adobe working with Google has really paid off in my opinion. My experience using Flash to make an Android app was far more efficient & resulted in a better app than when I used Flash to make an iphone app. I assume that the working relationship between both companies has a lot to do with why AIR apps perform so well on Android. Personally as a decade of Apple consumption Im done with their software/hardware.

    http://blog.leefernandes.com/?p=347

    leef

    20 Apr 10 at 11:21 pm

  56. Thanks Mike, it was a very good post.

    One thing came in my mind altough. What about Nokia and Maemo or whatever it’s name is tomorrow? Do you have any plans with them? If it is true that Apple have some issues with Intel it would be pretty strong alliance with Intel & Nokia.

    retiisi

    21 Apr 10 at 12:01 am

  57. Great to hear that Adobe finally gave up on trying to put Flash on the iphone in any capacity. No flash ads on iPhone (YAY!).

    You guys should really focus your effort on the companies like Joojoo, they really need your help.

    Ben

    21 Apr 10 at 12:12 am

  58. Whilst I’m still (just about) a Mac fan, I’m also certain Android will eclipse the iProduct market in the coming years. The HTC Desire and EVO 4G with Android 2.1 show the sheer quality and rapid onslaught Apple is competing against and you only have to look at the staggering number of devices coming out to understand the investment that has taken place by so many major device (phone/tablet), TV, set-top-box and even car manufacturers to know where this is going.

    To the point… For many of the games you can make with Flash you may be able to use JS/HTML/5, a basic shim app for iPhone/iPad and hopefully AIR 2 for Android (until Android 2.0 becomes widespread which has HTML5 features). This is what I’m currently doing, but of course it’s still going to be very limited compared to what we could have done in FP10+; mainly audio, PB and RTMP, but you still get Canvas, hardware accelerated 3D, effects, animation etc, it’s the tooling that is the biggest drawback.

    It’s a crying shame we are losing the one tech that would have ported across all next-gen mobile environments (iPhone OS, Android, Win Phone, Symbian/ Maemo), supporting indie developers instead of favouring those with the budget and resources to port to all platforms. But Adobe are still best positioned to provide these tools and even a platform (should they feel it necessary) for this route also.

    Richard Leggett

    21 Apr 10 at 12:22 am

  59. What utter tosh!!

    Adobe complains because Apple’s closed platform doesn’t want to use Adobe’s closed platform…..boo hoo!

    As you said yourself….
    [We havent announced any plans to open source the entire Flash Player, although core parts of it have been open sourced (including Tamarin, the ActionScript virtual machine).]

    Adobe should get back to it’s core business of authoring tools…..Flash is another Visual Basic analog….useful for small things but ultimately develops only at the speed of the behemoth behind it, discourages programmers grasping advanced principles and caters to the lowest denominator.

    HTML5 is a new standard, yes, but ultimately will be equal to and surpass flash’s limited ability….what does Adobe offer……our new bespoke platform…Air!…wow what a deal, new licensing agreements and fees….and no doubt at that point you’ll open source Flash because it’s no longer a cash cow….and that’s what we’re really talking about here.

    Adobe has milked flash, and to be fair, it was perfect for the time it hit the market, enabling content that HTML/XML etc etc just couldn’t match. The world has moved on, technology has developed. Just as Lotus lost out to MS Office and Microsoft lost out to Linux……Flash, Silverlight and AIR are all yesterday’s thinking….

    Anyone notice how Microsoft is resisting implementing OpenXML now for Office, and delaying as much as possible…….look in the mirror Mike.

    Adobe actions recently are a lot closer to Microsoft’s behaviour that got MS slapped by the EU than Apple’s action over Flash is….

    …Disagree? Open source Air and Flash for use in the HTML5 spec.

    snowB

    21 Apr 10 at 12:41 am

  60. [...] I was thinking about what Mike Chambers posted about yesterday. He states that he’s going to focus on android and is looking forward to the tablets coming [...]

  61. [...] will be agree with me but I feel to tell you my point of view. First of all, today we are sure that Adobe will not invest anymore on iPhone packager for Flash CS5, so from a developer point of view I’m totally agree with [...]

  62. [...] finger-pointing diatribe against Apple, you'll have to hit the source link. Loop Insight Mike Chambers 46 Leave A Comment Facebook Digg Google Buzz Twitter adobe, adobe cs5, AdobeCs5, apple, [...]

  63. [...] that this flash / iphone thing is closed, Adobe, can you please make sure, that Flash Player 10.1 on Android will be nothing else but [...]

  64. Thanks for this post.
    100% agree with you too.
    Let’s shift to all the other devices !

    garral

    21 Apr 10 at 1:53 am

  65. Dude, I am right there with you, trust me. As an artist and musician, I love Apple computers, and I do like my iphone, but things are changing…fast. Your email is an excellent example of the evolution predicted years ago by researchers, that by 2012, apple will no longer dominate the mobile space and Google’s Android will be the standard. Let’s put it this way, about a week ago I picked up a slew of Android dev books and all my iphone dev books got stuffed in the closet… and will likely hit the recycler next time I clean out the closet :) Sorry Apple, but you just went too far this time. I know our country is founded on capitalism, but we pride ourselves in having ethical beliefs and standards, and attempting to put a wrench the pursuit of happiness for others (eg. Adobe, Google, and whoever else has gotten verbally abused by Jobs in the last few years)…. well, that’s just wrong.

    Dan Orlando

    21 Apr 10 at 2:09 am

  66. “There are no “Flash Applets” being deployed to the iPhone. Flash CS5 compiled SWFs into native iPhone applications.”

    Mike, if this is the case why can’t Adobe Flash CS5 output to XCode. Surely it would be no more difficult to convert an FLA/ SWF to native binary (ie not SWF wrapped with XCode) than cross convert to Objective C?

    tom

    21 Apr 10 at 2:09 am

  67. What about Symbian / MeeGo? It’s not very popular in the U.S., but here in Europe Nokia is quite important.

    oli

    21 Apr 10 at 2:10 am

  68. @snowB, So according to your theory, HTML5 will save us all with its advanced multimedia programming, cross browser abilities and lightning fast engine?

    LOL.

    Keep dreaming. HTML5 is nowhere near Flash. Sure, it replaces *basic* multimedia uses such as playing an audio or video file, but try making anything using complex motion and interaction with video masking, character animation, collision detection etc, and HTML5 will quickly feel like a box of Lego – and not the good Lego with motors and electronics, but the old crappy lego that leaves you wanting more.

    And I’m not a flash developer. I’m HTML/javascript. I say this because I know the limitations of HTML and javascript, and they are VERY real limitations when it comes to making rich visual multimedia-type stuff that runs solid on different platforms.

    Apple wants you to just use their apps. They probably don’t give a rats about HTML5 anyway. It’s all about the app store.

    My next phone will NOT be an iPhone, even a jailbroken one.

    frypan

    21 Apr 10 at 2:11 am

  69. [...] Adobe Mike Chambers Share M. Daou | April 21st, 2010 | Tags: Android, BlackBerry, Flash, webos, Windows [...]

  70. [...] Product Manager for developer relations for the Flash Platform at Adobe, Mike Chambers, puts a full stop to the story from Adobe’s side. In a lengthy blog post, he calls developers of Flash apps for [...]

  71. Mike,

    Great article… And although I agree with you fully on the fact that Apple is playing hardball here with their iPad-iPhone-iPod environment, there is clearly a to sides to every picture.

    On the Apple side, they are truthfully just protecting their investment. They can’t afford to have a Flash (or Java for that matter) go awry on their iPhone or iPad. If you think about it, their restrictions on how apps are created, tested, and validated is key to it’s success. This has allow Apple to extend to some point their control of the App’s that run on their devices, providing a higher level experience. I know I had my share of Apps going soouth on the Windows/Symbian platforms.
    Yet another approach, Apple is also promoting an open standard. I am sure that if Adobe would not impose their proprietary FLASH framework to build the apps, then this would not be so much fuss. It the IDE would compile from C or C++, then Apple restriction would no apply here.

    In essence, what we see here is Apple’s attempt to protect it’s bread and butter, and Adobe’s attempt to promote it’s proprietary Flash.
    I love Flash, and I have invested heavily in building my skills on AS 3, but I although it would take me some time to retake C/C++ to hone my skills, it would not be impossible to get there.

    Is Apple loosing an opportunity from Flash developer? that is an open argument and one that is hard to measure. How ever if we look at the other side of the coin, is Adobe loosing an opportunity catering it’s fantastic IDE to build on the iPhone OS momentum, and I would say this is clearly a simple a $10M question… 30K+ developers… they pay $99 per license to Apple to get access to Apple API’s with limited IDE… at $299 for WSIWYG IDE how much is Adobe loosing on? Not to mention that iPad will expand the iPhone OS beyond Apple’s current reach.

    My $0.02 on this vision.

    Jose

    Jemo

    21 Apr 10 at 2:33 am

  72. For those of you who think that HTML5 is an open standard recommended by the W3C, I think you might want to check these pages:
    http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#When_will_HTML5_be_finished.3F
    http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=718

    So, HTML5 will be officially recommended by W3C around 2022.
    Yep: that’s a serious Flash vs HTML5 fight going on ….

    Bengali

    21 Apr 10 at 3:14 am

  73. @Ben: No ads on the iPhone? I have news for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wLuA9tPFfE

    Must be great to have an ad-free mobile, heh?

    jupp

    21 Apr 10 at 3:19 am

  74. I’d love to see Adobe ditch Apple OSX altogether. I for one would be willing to ditch my Mac.

    PK

    21 Apr 10 at 3:27 am

  75. [...] Mike Chambers, looks like that Adobe iPhone packager/development solution is been [...]

    biskero.org

    21 Apr 10 at 3:35 am

  76. Hi, Mike.
    I am a developer from camangi which design android tablet…
    We are very interested in integrating Flash into our second generation tablet… and we are now verifying the platform for software compatibility…
    Is there any channel that we can contact adobe for flash integration testing… there is a lot demands from our customer for flash… and we are hoping delivering second gen tablet with flash 10.1 preinstall… yeah. iPad sucks…

    Steven Lin

    21 Apr 10 at 3:36 am

  77. [...] a blog post by Adobe’s Mike Chambers it is made clear that no development time will be spent on the compiler – originally billed [...]

  78. thx mike, great post. i’ll start to fight ;)

    elbjoern

    21 Apr 10 at 3:45 am

  79. [...] Product Manager for developer relations for the Flash Platform at Adobe, Mike Chambers, puts a full stop to the story from Adobe’s side. In a lengthy blog post, he calls developers of Flash apps for [...]

  80. [...] mit iPhone developmet hat es sich jetzt wohl erledigt. On Adobe, Flash CS5 and iPhone Applications at Mike Chambers __________________ "Du kannst keinen Joghurt essen und Blues spielen" – Janis Joplin [...]

  81. Good post, the fact that Apple did not ban cross compilers right from the beginning(IPhone Gen1) is what makes me suspect that this is targeted only towards Flash cross compiler. So sad that such a big company like Apple is so paranoid and insecure.

    Bob

    21 Apr 10 at 4:05 am

  82. My main requirement to make up for all the lost time and effort I’ve had as a result of this, is that Apple apologists simply give up their trade. As I said in my blog, these are the same people that wouldn’t stop ranting and raving about Microsoft’s DRM policies.

    Steve Broome

    21 Apr 10 at 4:09 am

  83. Yeah I totally disagree, you can make real applications with AS3 almost like C++, HTML5 doesn’t have that ability. Does HTML5 have anything like Papervision3D or Alchemy ?

    sami

    21 Apr 10 at 4:10 am

  84. Apple has made this beyond frustrating as flash would only solidify iPod Touch / iPhone / iPad ’s awesomeness & continue their quest toward the domination they seem to seek. I’m writing this from an iPod Touch saddened that two tech collosals can’t find a way to make this a reality. In the end, Flash is great & so are these devices.

    roto

    21 Apr 10 at 4:13 am

  85. I just have one thing to say… “One Web, Any Screen”

    reyco1

    21 Apr 10 at 4:16 am

  86. As much as it disappoint me to see the day flash apps would run nicely on the iPhone, it is the right thing to do.

    As I wrote, in a previous article about consumers deciding what they want:

    http://blog.lordalexleon.com/post/381785903/flash-on-the-iphone-ipad-is-really-up-to-consumers

    With new phones and tablets making it’s way to market in late 2010, it makes sense Adobe focuses on Android and Blackberry Phones and deliver a finely optimized Player for these devices.

    Let the best platform win.

    +LA

    LordAlex Leon

    21 Apr 10 at 4:46 am

  87. No one is talking about ELIPS studio here. Openplug anounced that iPhone Apps created with Flex and Elips Studio are going to be accepted… Are they just dreaming or is this possible?

    I really hope that something is going to safe me from objective – c or the html/css/javascript mess.

    Tom

    21 Apr 10 at 4:47 am

  88. [...] çal??maya ba?lad?k. Gayet ba?ar?l? bir sistemdi. Ama Apple ?imdi bunu da yasaklad?. Mike Chambers’?n dedi?ine göre art?k Adobe pes ediyor ve iPhone deste?i üzerinde art?k çal???lmayacak; ama Flash CS5 [...]

  89. [...] the post to the Adobe blog, from Adobe’s senior product manager for developer relations, Mike Chambers, it’s explained [...]

  90. @snowB

    Wow. I’m sorry that you feel that way.

    IMHO – the things that Apple is doing are extremely anti-competitive (something that is illegal in the United States). By putting the kabosh on not only Flash, but ANY other tool that could potentially be used to develop something for their ecosystem, they have begun to use their wealth, greed, and power, to push competing technologies out of the way, and to monopolize content creation and distribution for their platform. This is very similar to what Microsoft did with IE and their Media Player that got them slapped by anti-compete lawsuits in the states, and later slapped by the EU.

    Adobe, on the other hand, has a relatively closed plug-in that anyone can develop for, regardless of starting technology. The entire SWF specification was published, allowing people, if they choose, to develop their own model of the plug-in and/or their own tools to publish to it. (Take a look at gordon [http://paulirish.com/work/gordon/demos/] if you don’t believe me) Also, several parts of the flashPlayer are open-sourced, and several official Adobe tools to develop for the platform are open-source.

    As for the life of the flashPlayer – it is still years ahead of the HTML5 specification. True, HTML5 is doing some amazing things that have never been seen outside of the flashPlayer or other plug-ins before. Also true, though, is that the HTML5 specification is not complete yet, and, therefore, is not a standard yet.

    And another thing, the flashPlayer IS a standard on the internet by sheer market-share alone. When 75% of the video on the internet is rendered using a single player, that player becomes a standard for video (and I’m not even going to get into the online gaming market). Just as IE is the standard web-browser, no matter how compliant they are with W3C standards – they have the majority of users, and are therefore the standard.

    On another note, great post Mike! I’ve been following all of this closely, and am really glad to see the good posts (including the open letter to Apple that appeared yesterday) about this.

    Ross R

    21 Apr 10 at 5:04 am

  91. [...] a lack of trust in the Apple platform. Mike Chambers, Adobe big-wig and master of all things Flash, speaks frankly on this blog about the atrocious state of affairs: “I think that the closed system that Apple is trying to [...]

  92. “The primary goal of Flash has always been to enable cross browser, platform and device development.”

    This is a good post BUT to try and make out that Apple is the bad guy here with a closed platform and that Adobe is just being a good citizen and trying to make life easy for everyone is untrue. Flash is a closed platform too. It’s proprietary and we all know that software vendors such as Adobe like proprietary as it gives you customer lock-in. If you had made the Flash format publicly available e.g. the native .fla format, then I could buy into the message. The reality is that you want Flash to be a cross platform, cross device software tool so everyone is locked into Adobe file formats and Adobe software tools. Adobe is a commercial organization with shareholder to satisfy. I don’t begrudge you that but I would prefer you were honest enough to say that your strategy is to tie everyone into Adobe standards and tools because that drives your revenue and share price. That’s exactly the same as Apple is trying to do and they clearly don’t want to end up in a situation where Adobe owns the platform through Flash, rather than Apple. They also don’t want a message of “buy any mobile device because they all have exactly the same software on them compiled from Flash”.

    So we have two immovable objects here. Apple want to own the platform on their devices and Adobe want to own the development platform for ALL devices. I don’t think there is any right or wrong side of this argument if Adobe were honest on this. Stop trying to make our you’re the good guys here when you are clearly trying to drive to an even more monopolistic position than the one you already have in the design segment. You pretty much own the print and Web design sectors and now you want to own the development tools sector as well. Fair enough. Just be honest about it.

    Paul Rogers

    21 Apr 10 at 5:22 am

  93. “We will still be shipping the ability to target the iPhone and iPad in Flash CS5. However, we are not currently planning any additional investments in that feature.”

    Could you expand a bit on that Mike? So CS5 will still be able to compile to native iPhone OS applications? But you’ve given up on making them ‘legal’ in terms of AppStore submissions etc?

    For me that would actually still be a selling point for CS5, simply because Flash CS5 would become what Flash Lite essentially has been for years (at least for us) – a rapid prototyping tool for mobile apps that eventually are developed in a different environment. Previously that was J2ME for Symbian, S40 and other Java-based mass-market devices, and now Obj-C for the iPhone platform.

    Not a bad feature to have, which has been overlooked by many in the whole furore around this issue. Yes, you can’t sell iPhone apps compiled by CS5, but you can still use your existing skillset to develop and deploy them to the actual devices to quickly produce proof-of-concept versions, ideas etc.

    Wolf Luecker

    21 Apr 10 at 5:29 am

  94. I agree with snowB above on many points and this is coming from someone who makes much of his living off of Flash development. If Adboe were to open source the Flash platform, I think it could be their path to saving it. Adobe would still create the authoring environments that we use to build Flash, but with it open sourced, there would be some competition in that arena, which I hope would make for better tools for developers.

    Being an open platform would also clear the path for Flash be eligible to be part of the ‘open standards’ path development for the web/internet is now on.

    To touch on the authoring tools again, the competition Adobe would see in this arena would hopefully get someone, if not Adobe, to address the poor state of the Flash IDE on the Mac. I hope it has improved in CS5, but CS4 has been a very poor Mac experience.

    John Morton

    21 Apr 10 at 5:34 am

  95. [...] a primi mail cand apare un articol nou! Astazi Mike Chanbers, Principal Product Manager la Adobe, a anuntat in mod oficial ca Adobe renunta la orice fel de programe  pentru facut aplicatii destinate iPhone [...]

  96. Here here! As an app developer, I’m more and more disturbed by the open-architecture-aperture-shrinking thought-process of large corporations like Apple.

    I wish I were in a position to lay policy against developing any app for use by any platform developed by Apple… oh wait, I am, and so are you.

    What say ye?

    Ned McConnell

    21 Apr 10 at 5:39 am

  97. I don’t understand how Apple has been able to get away with this without some form of court case. Anti-trust or whatever nonsense it is that they’re always accusing Microsoft of.

    For once, I actually agree with the laws in these things and feel that we should have the right to stick our noses in and tell jobs to go stuff himself.

    Peter D

    21 Apr 10 at 5:39 am

  98. i’m curious. i ask this question because i don’t know the answer. is there a commercial product made by anyone that outputs AS3 compiled SWF files?

    I wonder how adobe would react if a competitor emerged that made a better AS3 IDE. I further wonder how adobe would react if that competitor neglected to support the latest AS3 features for a few years.

    I don’t think this is something adobe would allow to continue.

    monsterofNone

    21 Apr 10 at 5:39 am

  99. [...] a lack of trust in the Apple platform. Mike Chambers, Adobe big-wig and master of all things Flash, speaks frankly on this blog about the atrocious state of affairs: "I think that the closed system that Apple is trying to [...]

  100. Hey Mike,

    I could go on for days, years, the rest of my entire life( as could we all ) arguing about this stuff but I really like your attitude in all this. This whole thing has given us (the flash community) a brush with the Apple community (snowB, for example) and honestly I don’t want anything to do with that whole scene and mentality. I’ve been hard on Adobe and have sought to do things potentially harmful (like develop a flash IDE) and this whole thing has really opened my eyes to how we all gotta stick together, support Adobe and move on to a better tomorrow because in contrast to companies like Apple you guys are great. Anyway I guess this is a bit of a long winded “Yeah! Party on lets move forward and forget Apple” combined with a bit of a confession of guilt for the attitude I’ve had toward Adobe in the past. Anyway all the best, 100% agree lets not even give the time of day to these people anymore, let them have their control freakishness that will only hurt them and “flash on.”

    Jesse Nicholson

    21 Apr 10 at 6:15 am

  101. >> Adobe should get back to it’s core business of authoring tools

    Isn’t that exactly what Adobe have been doing all along?

    :-)

    Bo

    21 Apr 10 at 6:24 am

  102. This is a great article and I’ll refer others to it. I’ll be designing mobile web sites (not apps) using Flash, as it’s capable of creating a far better interface and navigation. Things that would take an experienced developer hours in Objective-C would take a couple of minutes in Flash. There are also several other advantages for Flash designers and website visitors. I have no idea why anyone would want to sign or agree to anything that Apple dictates.

    All my future mobile websites will be developed using a combination of XHTML / Flash / CSS for the Android audience. And my regular websites (for desktops & laptops) will continue to be designed using the same XHTML / Flash / CSS combo.

    Flash = Freedom

    dwgtd

    21 Apr 10 at 6:25 am

  103. First of all, I really enjoyed the post. I do hope that Adobe will open source Flash & Air to allow greater flexibility to an open platform.

    All of these Apple apologist believe the word of a single man. Isn’t the point of open source that the sum is greater than it’s parts? Yet Apple wants you to use it’s tools only? Yet when IBM was doing the same thing back in the day that Apple is doing now, Steve Jobs had a problem with that. I think we have a new adjective to describe the Founder of Apple and that word is hypocrite! Where is the freedom for the developers or the end users that Steve Jobs preached about back in 1983?

    HTML 5 isn’t even close to being done yet. Yet all of these people want to put a partially baked language into our systems? Isn’t that the pathway to malware & compromise? All you need is some flaw in the implementation of HTML5, some flaw within h.264 that has not been discovered, & our systems are open to compromise. How is it rational or logical that we implement a spec like HTML 5 when it’s not even close to completion? It’s all these half baked solutions that create conduits to infection & compromise.

    It’s fair to say that Adobe Flash does have security issues. However, those issues can be resolved. Also, plugins like Adobe Flash can be isolated to prevent a far reaching security issue. However, HTML 5 integration goes so deep within a web browser that it could become automatic with little to no defense.

    I am also troubled how Apple seems to close out competition. This is far, far worse than Microsoft ever did with anti-trust case. However, we’ve seen Microsoft change to be a better industry partner. Unfortunately, Apple didn’t learn from Microsoft’s folly.

    That is why we need vibrant alternatives such as Flash to keep all the other players honest. It’s Adobe’s challenge & responsibility to improve the security & to act as a check against anti-competitive behaviors of the industry. That is why I stand by Adobe to create a platform where competition is king. Where the multitude of solutions, programming languages, & programming tools act as both a check & a warning against monopolistic ambitions.

    I am looking forward to seeing Adobe on my Android device in the near term future. Peace.

    Jose G.

    21 Apr 10 at 6:29 am

  104. life continues …

    Paul

    21 Apr 10 at 6:37 am

  105. Thanks Mike, not only for a great post explaining things, but also doing a good job in following up with people’s questions in the comments.

    Matthew Fabb

    21 Apr 10 at 6:38 am

  106. [...] Mike Chambers On Adobe, Flash CS5 and iPhone Applications [...]

  107. [...] fait, Mike Chambers, l’homme en charge de gérer les relations développeurs pour le Flash s’est fendu il y a peu d’un billet sur son blog faisant état de son agacement face au comportement d’Apple, et indique qu’Adobe a [...]

  108. Mike: Ok … what are the reasons why the IPhone-Packager will still be released with Flash CS5?

    I guess it might be not the best way to release an old ‘key-feature’ in a brand new version of Flash, which won’t be supported in the future. It doesn’t look like a consistent behaviour.

    Isn’t there enough time left for removing the Packager from Flash?

    Nick Weschkalnies

    21 Apr 10 at 6:47 am

  109. [...] terms of its iPhone 4.0 software developer kit license in a way that blocked Adobe’s plans. Chambers in a blog post said that Apple’s new terms were meant to single out Adobe and any content created with Flash [...]

  110. ” We will still be shipping the ability to target the iPhone and iPad in Flash CS5. However, we are not currently planning any additional investments in that feature.” -> About time…

    Personally, I have both iPhone and Nexus-One – I like the later better for it being open and easy to develop for (not to mention publish).
    Put aside native applications, when surfing the web – in Android Flash will render, where on iPhone almost every web page will show an empty white box!

    Latest stats by Gartner shows the iPhone market share is way below Symbian (Open Source) and RIM (Blacberry) – http://techcrunch.com/2010/02/23/smartphone-iphone-sales-2009-gartner/ .
    Today, Apple’s AppStore is the number 1 revenue generating mobile market due to Apple’s own marketing and noise, if more of us will make noise about the other platforms and target apps to Android, Symbian, etc. The potential is greater and Apple will be forced to open up their gates.
    So now is the time, not to let iPhone grow and to empower the other platforms – for the sake of keeping the mobile market open for all.

    Zohar Babin

    21 Apr 10 at 6:53 am

  111. [...] respecto al artículo 3.3.1: Mike Chambers, Director Gerente de Producto de la Plataforma Flash, comunicó en un post que no van a invertir más tiempo en la funcionalidad de exportación para iPhone integrada en [...]

  112. Great job Adobe for taking the high road on this one.

    Apple is using its monopoly position in the mobile market to tie in developers. This has anti-trust written all over it. Soon, the governments will come down hard on Apple.

    I look forward to the day when Apple is bankrupt.

    Kosta72

    21 Apr 10 at 6:59 am

  113. [...] a lack of trust in the Apple platform. Mike Chambers, Adobe big-wig and master of all things Flash, speaks frankly on this blog about the atrocious state of affairs: “I think that the closed system that Apple is trying to [...]

  114. I am really sorry about this state of affairs. Adobe and Apple, at least in my mind, have always been synonymous. The persistent vitriol or Apple is shocking, and it is akin to me of the child that wins monopoly and still has to make his/her opponent feel like an outcast.

    Apple might win. It might be that the government will have to bust them up because of their dominance. Clearly people are buying their product in droves, and developers are running to develop for them. I commend you on the practice of allowing to port any iPhone app to Android, etc. In doing so, you are supporting the open technology that we all prefer (at least theoretically) . Thank you for this support, it gives Android a chance of better market share, and that share affects Apple. I like Apple, but I am pro multiple companies in one space.

    jacq

    21 Apr 10 at 7:04 am

  115. [...] Mike Chambers – On Adobe, Flash CS5 and iPhone Applications [...]

  116. [...] Mike Chambers Blog SHARE THIS POST digg_url = [...]

  117. Why not just have the iPhone packager feature export the Objective-C code that could then be compiled using Apple’s SDK and tools?

    Chris

    21 Apr 10 at 7:10 am

  118. I’ve made it clear from the beginning that I was never really on board with the Flash to iPhone strategy. And I kind of foresaw something like this happening. Despite this, I’ve become very disillusioned with Apple over the last few months. It’s all about controlling developers, “protecting” consumers, and killing any perceived competition. As many have said, it’s their party, they can do what they want. But as a developer and a consumer, the whole platform becomes less attractive day by day.

    Keith Peters

    21 Apr 10 at 7:20 am

  119. Apple is shipping consumer electronics, not a computer – more like an xBox than a Mac. It is much like the halcyon days of Nintendo (see my blog for more details). This isn’t going to change. It will get worse, because that is the direction Apple is going.

    HTML 5 is not a standard; it is barely an agreed upon specification. It can’t replace Flash unless there are powerful tools for building HTML 5 based content and the majority of web browsers on the market support it. The world will not move on until HTML 5 gets pervasive acceptance and is available on the browsers in use.

    Following Apple’s lead here isn’t progress, but it is good for Apple.

    Lynn Fredricks

    21 Apr 10 at 7:21 am

  120. OK, so can you guys spend the time you would have spent on Apple stuff bringing flash to Palm webOS? Please?

    Pete

    21 Apr 10 at 7:25 am

  121. The thing to recognize is that Apple is trying something new with the platform; they are jurying the content to ensure the user experience. Flash lends itself towards people cranking out schlock. I can understand why they would want to keep it off the platform.

    While you reply has emotional appeal, I look forward to future technology and how can we use the new capability, not how can we drag the legacy apps into the the progressive platform. I don’t care about playing farmvile on my phone. I’ll play in on my PC.

    toneii

    21 Apr 10 at 7:29 am

  122. @Mike. Thanks for the insight.

    @snowB and others. Please stop mixing up Open Source with Open Platform. Flash and Adobe’s development tools are not Open Source (yet, maybe will never be), however, Flash is definitely an Open Platform, Apple’s iPhone and iPad are NOT. I leave it to everyone to decide whether an Open Platform is a good thing or not.

    I posted a comment about an overlooked aspect of Apple’s move to ban all non native applications on my blog…

    http://flexdomino.blogspot.com/2010/04/future-of-flash-update.html

    Matthias Wille

    21 Apr 10 at 7:30 am

  123. [...] mehr Plattformen wie Android widmen. Bekanntgegeben wurde die Einstellung des Packagers von Mike Chambers, zuständig für Entwicklerzusammenarbeit für die Flash-Plattform. Mit dem Packager für iPhone [...]

  124. [...] maakt op zijn blog duidelijk dat de Flash Packager for iPhone in Flash CS5 niet verder wordt ontwikkeld of ondersteund. Met die [...]

  125. @Ben

    No, instead you get iAds, which if course will be soooo much better than flash ads because they’re done in HTML5 and they have an “i” in front of them ;-)

    Peter Baird

    21 Apr 10 at 7:36 am

  126. [...] Chambers, the Principal Product Manager for developer relations for the Flash Platform at Adobe, stated today on his blog: “Personally, I am going to shift all of my mobile focus from iPhone to Android based devices [...]

  127. mike, just an observation – i feel that adobe really need to do some PR work on this topic. on every forum i’ve seen this brought up (including this one), people think this is all about apple blocking flash at the browser. the majority *aren’t* getting that it’s just an alternative to building apps in x-code, with apple’s tools. i’m also seeing loads of FUD regarding interoperability with iPhone OS4.

    as it is, people just aren’t getting angry about this, and i think that’s a terrible shame.

    dan

    21 Apr 10 at 7:38 am

  128. snowB, there are loads of totally open (often GPL) flash tools – both for authoring and playback. google for it. it’s definitely an open platform compared to the iphone.

    dan

    21 Apr 10 at 7:40 am

  129. wonder how upset Apple would be if Adobe concentrated on Windows development for their tools… after all, that would result in the cool design types making a switch and Apple just being left with a big hole in their reputation

    offbeatmammal

    21 Apr 10 at 7:40 am

  130. For some reason I’ve never liked Apple. However, when I learned Flash CS5 would make it possible to create content for iPhone, I began to think I should buy one of those devices.
    Now I’m sure I won’t ever buy anything from them. I will buy Nexus.
    I’m sure there are thousands of developers out there thinking exactly the same.
    Apple stinks.

    Greetings from Brazil.

    Marcos Pinto

    21 Apr 10 at 7:40 am

  131. > Great to hear that Adobe finally gave up on trying to put Flash on the iphone in any capacity. No flash ads on iPhone (YAY!).

    Ben, just wait til you see the HTML5 pop-over ads, they’ll blow your mind.

    dan

    21 Apr 10 at 7:41 am

  132. [...] Read his articulate reasoning here: On Adobe, Flash CS5 and iPhone Applications at Mike Chambers/ [...]

  133. [...] at anytime, and for seemingly any reason,” Flash product manager Mike Chambers wrote on his blog [...]

  134. [...] new Terms of Service as it also effects other popular tools like UNITY 3D and Monotouch. Adobe also warned iPhone developers that already have Flash CS5 based products online (100+) that Apple might start booting them off [...]

  135. [...] iPhone, Hello Android Mike Chambers on Flash CS5, the iPhone, and Android. View This Pollsurvey [...]

  136. I can’t help but be amused by the folks who are singing the praises of HTML 5 as the equal of Flash. Flash is not only more than video but also isn’t a released standard nor will it be for many years. There is limited browser support for HTML 5 even within the WebKit based browsers and even less support in Firefox & Opera while it won’t be until IE 9 that there will be even limited support there.

    Let’s see I can use a technology supported and advocated for the iPhone or I can support what 98% of the rest of the world uses. Wonder which makes the most business sense?

    Note, I would love to be able to use CSS 3 and HTML 5 now since it would make my job as a front-end web developer so much easier (and I rarely use Flash for more than videos) but we are at least 5 years away from those technologies being mainstream.

    Cheryl D Wise

    21 Apr 10 at 7:50 am

  137. I most say that while i am just starting to develop for the iPhone, and actually wanted to use Titanium because of my limited knowledge of Objective-C. I’m now thinking about investing time and resources in learning and developing in Apples native language to the iPhone. Which is the point Mike Chambers i making, and that he is absolutely correct about.

    I believe this move by Apple will be bad for the developers and customers, which in the end will be bad for Apple.

  138. In my family we have three Mac’s and two Windows PC’s, two Ipod touches, and two nano’s. There are things I love about (Snow) Leopard and Windows 7, and things I would change in both. Apple builds good, stylish products that are incredibly overpriced. While I don’t mind overpaying for a product, I do mind being told what to do by a nanny (Steve Jobs). We already have enough nannies in the White House and Congress.

    There is a very concerted effort to control the internet by the big providers (e.g. AT&T). Steve Jobs is trying to do the same at Apple.

    I do like Adobe products and recognize the value that free market solutions like Acrobat and Flash provide to the internet.

    Please make Flash and Acrobat available to a broad selection of smart phones (Droid, Windows7, Symbian, and Palm) and let the free market sort it out. If Apple wants to take all of their toys and go home, then good riddance.

    Steve Lindsey

    21 Apr 10 at 7:55 am

  139. [...] giant. Mike Chambers, Adobe’s principal product manager for the Flash platform, recently fired off a rant about Apple’s latest move to change iPhone SDK terms to block apps created for the App Store created outside their SDK. [...]

  140. As someone who develops both for iPhone in Obj-C and the Flash platform, I’m quite amused by this whole conversation and how far it has gone.

    Anyone who develops for iPhone/iPad knows the terms can change at any time, and that they are really hush about what they do in general. And if you wish to be on their platform, you understand you have to play by their rules. This change in the developer’s agreement should have been no surprise to any individual developer or Adobe.

    For me, it feels more like my parents having a huge fight and trying to bring us kids into the argument and force us to pick sides. I simply won’t!

    For me personally, I fail to really see the downside to the way this is all playing out at the moment. So I’ll continue to sit on the sidelines and continue to be slightly amused at the overall tone of the conversation while I have XCode open on one screen and Flash Builder open on the next.

    @robertmurray

    21 Apr 10 at 8:07 am

  141. [...] Chambers, the principal product manager for developer relations for Adobe's Flash platform, in a blog post on [...]

  142. Honestly, Mike? In what way is Apple wanting developers to use their tools to provide Apps for their platform in any way different from you wanting developers to use your developer tools (Flash) to provide Apps for your platform (.swf-files on the web)?

    The fact that Apple regulates which apps are released on their platform doesn’t affect the fact that you’re just trying to push your own development platform, where you control the authoring tools over theirs. And what’s so open about that?

    MW

    21 Apr 10 at 8:17 am

  143. [...] Director Gerente de Producto de la plataforma Flash de Adobe, Mike Chambers, ha anunciado en su blog personal que la compañía abandona las funciones de exportación para iPhone de [...]

  144. I approve all your words, but i have a single question:

    Is Gnash legal ?

    And now some thoughts:

    On one side flash, is the most complete way of expressing designer/developer thoughts/concepts and work.
    Today, it already has things that i think Canvas/SVG/CSS will get in the next 10-20 years – and even so, who knows if browser implementors will agree on the “standards” and not interpret their own way how they did it so far and still doing it.

    Everybody seems to complain about flash being over abused for ads and processor intensive and crashes.

    But html5 with css3 and svg/canvas is going to give web developers the same fraking tools to create intrusive and obtrusive ads that jump at you, and who will block ads then ?

    I personally recommend you to disable “wmode=transparent” <- this is the source of flash beeing considered evil.

    If it could ever be possible for the FP itself to stop playing video/audio until the user explicitly asks for it.

    There is sole reason for which i don't like flash, is that you, Adobe, as Apple, because you are a commercial company, might one day decide not to support old swf content, a moment when the web will not be accessible anymore, having this option, no matter what is expressed without serious and actions, you will in theory be able to block the web.

    Yeah, it might be a dark way of thinking, but you have this possibility, the same as Apple has the right to modify their license as they please.

    iongion

    21 Apr 10 at 8:35 am

  145. [...] Chambers, company's product manager for Adobe Integrated Runtime (AIR), found himself sounding the retreat. "We will still be shipping the ability to target the iPhone and iPad in Flash CS5," Chambers [...]

  146. It is funny how for years Google, Apple were seen as evil and MS was seen as closed – Frankly I think that Adobe has done amazingly with Flash – there are many tools that can worth with it, and FLV became a standard – I am pro-choice but if I want to install flash on my iPhone, well I would want the choice… OR to uninstall it …

    Personally I am not touching another apple product after my experiences with the iPhone – I want more control – the app store is amazing, and the concept of the iPhone is great – but I had flash apps running on my touch based Symbian A925 a long time ago…

    Gerry White

    21 Apr 10 at 8:54 am

  147. What’s up with the closed private beta of compiling air to android. I’d like to know *WHEN* we can expect to start developing for android. Our company needs this.

    Patrick

    21 Apr 10 at 8:55 am

  148. [...] converter a mere 4 days before the public release of Adobe Flash CS5. Nearly two weeks later, Adobe has responded by announcing they are ending development on the Flash CS5 iPhone [...]

  149. I’ll be the first on this thread to say that there are a lot of –shall we say– dicks out there talking very loudly about things they probably have no real perspective over.

    That said, allow me to join their ranks for a moment.

    The whole Flash vs HTML5 debate has gone through a perfect parabolic arc of being shocking, to being amusing and silly, to being saddening in the extreme.

    It’s become developers timidly on the fence worried about commitment, with Angry Internet Men on either side howling about what is “right”, what is “standard”, all forgetting the basic f’ing detail that this isn’t just what form banner ads are taking; this is about people’s livelihood, their creativity and their self respect, and this debate is making people feel miserable.

    The thing that worries me the most at this point is that sides are being taken. Religion is, in this man-fool’s opinion, an absolute blight, and in a field as closely related to science as technology, research and development, why exactly are we debating religious issues on this level?

    Answer me, HTML5-is-the-second-coming-of-Christ-proclaimers (who conveniently forget that HTML5 is f all without the support of two other wholly separate standards), what the hell is your problem with diversity? Do you not have room in your cold, black hearts?

    Let people develop in whatever they want, let them publish whatever they want, and let the web be the delivery mechanism, and let the end-users choose what they want to see. The prick attitude that end-users and developers are all idiots and high-up wise beardy-men are the only ones capable of making wise choices for them will be the absolute downfall of the internet.

    I have no problem with HTML5 other than the fact that no serious developer with any brevity of experience can testify, hand on the bible, that the triangle circle jerk of markup, CSS and JS is a good development environment. In fact, I have no problem with ANY EFFING THING as long as freedom of choice is maintained.

    As the W3C standards bend into a pretzel to standardize RIA development, a process which by the way is likely to continue for many more years before we’re anywhere near 100% compliance or even compatibility, plugins allow immediacy and specificity.

    The problems with plugins are NOT that they exist. The problem is the way they are evaluated and delivered to the end-user, and for this purpose Chrome’s Flash player inclusion is an important step to realizing the obvious m’f'in truth that the Flash plugin has been around for long enough to practically BE standard.

    My “analysis” is simple; The future of the web is about transparency, diversity and freedom of choice. A homogenous pasteurized world wide web (as in the rainbow-filled unicorn-riding fantasy land of the current banner bearing HTML5 enthusiasts) is fundamentally doomed, as is any organic environment where genetic mutation and natural variety is eliminated.

    So, with all due respect, fuck your standards. The only standard should be a mechanism by which to provide diversity.

    Andreas Rønning

    21 Apr 10 at 9:02 am

  150. [...] Vía | Mike Chambers Blog. [...]

  151. I agree with some above.
    Think about Adobe Photoshop. It was the best tool for any type of pixel graphics application. You can export your creativity to multitudes of file formats and end result can be enjoyed by anyone. There’s not PhotoShopViewer™ plugin is there?
    How about using the Creative Suite tools to export to HTML5 (or Flash for those that want it). Then it can be enjoyed by the masses.

    SBC

    21 Apr 10 at 9:03 am

  152. I have recently heard that Android development was a real pain. With that in mind, I think Adobe can make some serious headway with this concept.

    It seems Apple is eager to making the same mistake they made in the early 90’s with the closed architecture. And much like in the 90’s competition will only cash in.

    Aaron

    21 Apr 10 at 9:03 am

  153. it’s pretty obvious why steve jobs doesn’t want people to create iPhone apps using anything other than his own SDK.. it’s because if I make an app with a 3rd party SDK like Flash CS5, I can compile it for different platforms without effort and then I will most definitely submit it everywhere and not just the AppStore …

    On the other hand if I’m restricted to using the native SDK, publishing the same app for a different store is 100 times harder and therefore the cool apps stay on the iphone, which makes it more appealing

    san

    21 Apr 10 at 9:03 am

  154. I’m entirely on Apple’s side here. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the benefit of the flash to iphone development channel, but I see this more as Apple trying to keep a certain level of quality control (and efficiency control) in the apps made available for the platform.

    When Apple is introducing technology in the iPhone OS for multitasking and speed increases and yadda yadda yadda, I as an end user WANT people to be writing native apps so that they are properly tied into the APIs and can 100% take advantage of the features.

    I personally don’t want the iPhone app store, or my iPhone/iPad looking like it’s full of garbage apps like the Windows OS of every flavor.

    I’ve never been a fan of FLASH, mainly because of its unnecessary use on the web, but also because it truly is buggy and unpredictable. I don’t want to see FLASH go away, because I think there are uses for it (none of those uses deal with media embedded on websites) but I don’t want to see FLASH shoe-horned into a development system to try to pass off ‘legitimate’ apps that will not run as efficiently as those properly programmed.

    BILL!

    21 Apr 10 at 9:04 am

  155. Can’t agree with you more. Apple is loosing touch with the one key thing that brought them back in the game — Darwin OS. Now they are locking down their software again, and I can’t see how this is going to help them in the long run…

    Jonathan Tan

    21 Apr 10 at 9:06 am

  156. With regard to Windows Phone 7: From what I’ve read it seems that OS is not part of the Open Screen Project, so it will not come with the Flash plug-in or AIR mobile installed.

    Or will it?

    Will owners of WinPhone devices be able to install the plug-in and AIR, if it doesn’t come with it?

    If you can provide any answers to these questions I’d appreciate it. :)

    Andrew Murphy

    21 Apr 10 at 9:07 am

  157. Wise Men, i hope somebody comes on the bad idea to create a programm / os, that cydia and all corresponding apps will run on the open source plattform / device.
    That will be the dead of the iphone.

    Stefan M.

    21 Apr 10 at 9:10 am

  158. @Andrew Murphy


    With regard to Windows Phone 7: From what I’ve read it seems that OS is not part of the Open Screen Project, so it will not come with the Flash plug-in or AIR mobile installed.

    Adobe and Microsoft are working together to bring Flash Player 10.1 to Internet Explorer Mobile on Windows Phone 7. We havent made any announcements about AIR for Windows Phone 7.

    More info here:
    http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2010/03/09/flash-player-10-1-and-windows-phone-7/

    Hope that helps…

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 9:11 am

  159. @SBC


    How about using the Creative Suite tools to export to HTML5 (or Flash for those that want it).

    Yes, expect a lot of news around HTML 5 Adobe in the near future…

    You can see some early work on this blog:

    http://blogs.adobe.com/designandweb/

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 9:13 am

  160. Apple’s lost! maybe later this year, apple will realize that the android markets is increasing at an alarming rate and may cause apple to reconsider their position and also some time to justify their lost in revenue due to their own limitations.flash vs html5? html5 is still in steal mode, and apple is wasting time and money not allowing developers to create content, which will still make apple tons of money. Lastly, I’m with adobe, there’s huge potential in emerging markets, as people will have more options of having anti-apple devices, and that gives Steve jobs a run or his money; people will slowly shy away from apple!

    pablo

    21 Apr 10 at 9:16 am

  161. @MW


    In what way is Apple wanting developers to use their tools to provide Apps for their platform in any way different from you wanting developers to use your developer tools (Flash) to provide Apps for your platform (.swf-files on the web)?

    Adobe has no legal requirements or restrictions on how you develop Flash content. While we would like for you to use our tools and technologies, there is no legal requirement to do so.

    There are quite a few non-Adobe authoring solutions for targeting Flash. Some of which are free, some of which are commercial, and some of which compile from languages other than ActionScript.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 9:19 am

  162. Hey Adobe, how about completly stopping development of the complete Creativ Suite for Apple products? I mean THAT would screw Apple! With no more CS, no designer would buy a apple computer any more.
    That should make those Apple guys a bit more open for compromises, I guess ;-)

    Roland

    21 Apr 10 at 9:27 am

  163. @Pete


    OK, so can you guys spend the time you would have spent on Apple stuff bringing flash to Palm webOS? Please?

    Yes. We are working with Palm to make this happen.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 9:33 am

  164. This sounds very similar to when Apple released keyboards without arrow keys because (supposedly) they wanted developers to make new applications and not port existing ones to the Mac. You could say that all the applications at the time were garbage and needed to be rewritten (similar to saying Flash needs work) but it doesn’t change the fact that applications at the time had a user base who did appreciate them and probably wanted them on their new Mac. But the decision was made to do without arrows to support the vision of the future. Funny how now you can find tons of posts on keyboard shortcuts for various applications as we have evolved back from the mouse to the keyboard again.

    It really amazes me that people don’t mind the closed system that Apple pushes. A closed system has some huge advantages and should result in high quality for both hardware and software. But Apple is also telling you what do and don’t like. Seems like most other companies are trashed and dubbed as evil for that arrogance. Yet Apple is applauded. I love their products but the attitude is wearing thin.

    I might not be as critical if I could trust this was all about what Apple thought was the correct technical path. I just can’t believe Apple is doing what they think is right when so many other decisions seem to clearly be about protecting profit through a strictly closed system (we still can’t be trusted to change the battery on our own?)

    Matt

    21 Apr 10 at 9:41 am

  165. @Nick Weschkalnies


    what are the reasons why the IPhone-Packager will still be released with Flash CS5?

    This was based on customer feedback. A lot of developers have been using Flash to prototype iPhone applications, and then porting them to Objective-C. Including the packager makes this easier for them, as they can then test their prototypes on the devices.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 9:43 am

  166. [...] given the recent news about iPhone and 3.3.1 in the last couple of weeks, Adobe is now shifting hears, and putting their eggs in a new basket [...]

  167. … ok, i am rephrasing my sentences. It’s not that easy as you might think, to explain or ask something in a non-native language.

    Mike: Ok … what I’ve still not understood yet is: Why is Adobe still releasing the IPhone-Packager with Flash CS5 at all?

    This might be a minor request. I am writing a book for Flash CS5. What should I present my readers now about the IPhone-Packager?

    Nick Weschkalnies

    21 Apr 10 at 9:51 am

  168. [...] Read the full article here. [...]

  169. [...] [...]

    Anonymous

    21 Apr 10 at 10:05 am

  170. @snowB

    “Adobe has milked flash, and to be fair, it was perfect for the time it hit the market, enabling content that HTML/XML etc etc just couldn’t match. The world has moved on, technology has developed. Just as Lotus lost out to MS Office and Microsoft lost out to Linux……Flash, Silverlight and AIR are all yesterday’s thinking….”

    Flash is currently used in the vast majority of websites in one form or another and is installed on nearly 100% of all PC and laptops world wide. Maybe this technology is of “yesterday’s thinking”, but it is definitely a reality I cannot ignore. I don’t see anything that could replace Flash right now. HTML5 is nowhere to be considered a standard, let alone being a replacement for Flash. At best it is wishful thinking of those who do not like Flash. And whilst HTML5 will (may)be a new standard in future (even if it is near future), I develop and consume applications today not tomorrow (well hopefully also tomorrow).

    Whilst I don’t mind to accept and welcome new and better standards, we cannot just dump the current standards. And one of the current (de-facto) standards is Flash. Whether we like it or not.

    That of course is despite the fact that the problem is not about standards, but about open versus closed platforms.

    Matthias Wille

    21 Apr 10 at 10:08 am

  171. Mike, great post, thanks. Adobe is in an interesting position as a cross platform solution for mobile devices. I’d like to see broad support for Flash on everything *but* Apple at this point. I’m personally in favor of JavaScript/HTML5 development as a cross platform solution, but have found many SDK providers have made strange omissions in their WebKit implementations which hampers true cross-platform development. I think Flash is an excellent rallying point both for consumers and developers: we all want not only the ability to have flash, but the ability to have the same apps on whatever device we choose. Most manufacturers and carriers are against this (even Google — why they don’t use their own Chrome WebKit instead of Android’s buggy hunk of junk is beyond me), save for Palm, who has arguably the most open and unfettered platform (webOS). Speaking of which, I’m looking forward to seeing Flash on the Pre and Pixi soon. Keep up the good work!

    Dave Balmer

    21 Apr 10 at 10:11 am

  172. Hi Mike,

    Great post. Although you mentioned something which I think needs clarification.

    “There is no technical reason that Flash can’t run on the iPhone”

    I don’t agree that Adobe ‘proved’ this. Let’s be honest, you were compiling binaries which is not the same as an interpreted .swf. Nobody deploys flash content on the web in OS targeted projectors/executables (which I know even then are distinctly different than the iPhone targeted binaries.

    Developers and Apple want in-browser swf’s running on the phone with the full experience found on their desktops/laptops. We all know this isn’t exactly possible due to the lack of necessary processing performance available on the phone. This is a flashplayer team problem which I’m sure Apple will meet in the middle with as they figure out how to get faster and faster chips in there without making it huge or frying our hands with heat problems.

    So to say that Adobe has solved this problem or proven anything isn’t true.

    Deploying an iPhone app with flash is an entirely different move, and I seriously question why anyone who has the competence to write to modern actionscript standards would choose this over an afternoon with an Objective-C book and native libraries.

  173. I am one of those observers that does not have the position to be an expert, but could Mr. Chambers back up his assertions as to why open source will eventually dominate?

    Today, MS with Windows controls over 90 percent of the market while other attempts at open source have all failed. For the end user of a product, I don’t think they care if something is open or closed source as long as it works well. For a developer, they want to make as much money as possible with as little effort as possible. At least that is my impression.

    I’m very skeptical of Google’s model. Nothing is free. There are costs to develop and support their open source. When and where will be paying for this and what will we be giving up to get it? I’m glad Google is doing all this as it keeps Apple and MS on their toes, but the business models are very different and I don’t understand how Google will come out on top with something they give away.

    —————
    Mike Chambers

    Mr. Chambers back up his assertions as to why open source will eventually dominate?

    There is no discussion of open source in this post at all.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    Steve Ham

    21 Apr 10 at 10:25 am

  174. >Hey Adobe, how about completly stopping development of the complete Creativ Suite for Apple products?

    Since the “Real creative” crowd lives on OS X that would screw Adobe more than Apple… and if they do, Apple will release the Photoshop product they have been working on over the years… And that will kill Adobe

    Timyslim

    21 Apr 10 at 10:26 am

  175. Thanks Mike for openly posting whats been happening, its especially helpful for developers trying to market their skills. At this point I am not able to build Flash apps for the iPhone, but only because Apple is being a bitch.

    However thanks to Adobe and their Android efforts I am still able to publish to other mobile devices.

    Overall I think this is a blow to the Apple side, especially if they pull the apps from the store that are there now. It will be sad to see my app, Happy Peg removed but I guess its life.

    Thanks to Adobe for the amazing efforts!

    Matthew Keefe

    21 Apr 10 at 10:28 am

  176. The problem for Apple is that they take a cut of every iTunes delivered app, and if you can run Flash apps in the browser, this goes around iTunes. It also means that content providers can deliver porn and that application developers can deliver FREE apps.

    As an Android user, the only thing I miss about flash is playing web-embedded flash-delivered videos. Very little other Flash content is of interest to me.

    Ed Greenberg

    21 Apr 10 at 10:30 am

  177. @monsterofNone


    is there a commercial product made by anyone that outputs AS3 compiled SWF files?

    Yes there are a number including IntelliJ IDEA, FlashDevelop and FDT:
    http://www.fdt.powerflasher.com/

    Furthermore, the SWF format is open, and anyone can make a tool that generates Flash content.

    There are also quite a few non-commercial projects that also generate SWFs, some from languages other than ActionScript.

    Hope that helps…

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 10:30 am

  178. “I believe that ultimately open platforms will win out over the type of closed, locked down platform that Apple is trying to create.”*

    Fun Fact : Flash is NOT an open standard…

    ————–
    Mike Chambers

    I dont see anywhere in this post where anyone said it was.

    The comment is about open platforms, not open standards, or open source, or opening jars of pickles…

    Shaun

    21 Apr 10 at 10:32 am

  179. Can the web not find a way to bypass and escape the grip of Apple on the app store through creating other parallel stores where apps can be published that escape the scrutiny of Steve. Just an idea !!

    hassan Elousami

    21 Apr 10 at 10:35 am

  180. [...] 4.0 software developer kit license, it effectively blocked Adobe’s move. But in his Tuesday announcement that Adobe will cease future development of the Flash-apps-on-iPhone technology, Mike Chambers, Adobe’s principal product manager for the Flash platform, let loose a tirade [...]

  181. @Nick Weschakalnies @Mike

    Not to mention that, if the iPhone packager is still included, nothing is stopping developers from trying to get their apps on the iPhone. That legalese gunk in the dev license only gives Apple the right to say no.

    I’m still not convinced that Apple will be able to tell a difference between something “originally” written in another language and converted to Obj-C. Seems to me that if the final compiled application is all Obj-C then it doesn’t matter.

    Ross R

    21 Apr 10 at 10:39 am

  182. Mike,

    Correct it did not, but the article seems to allude to it, siding with flash and disagreeing with Apple’s decision. The line I quoted felt like it contradicted itself in the stance of the article as a whole.

    Shaun

    21 Apr 10 at 10:41 am

  183. [...] 3.3.1 situation and Adobe’s response reeks of a bad poker game, where devs are the spectators watching the cards unfold (guess who has [...]

  184. @Brendan Farr-Gaynor


    Developers and Apple want in-browser swf’s running on the phone with the full experience found on their desktops/laptops. We all know this isn’t exactly possible due to the lack of necessary processing performance available on the phone.

    Actually, we have shown that the Flash Player can run on the iPhone class of devices (just check out some of the Android demos).


    I seriously question why anyone who has the competence to write to modern actionscript standards would choose this over an afternoon with an Objective-C book and native libraries.

    Perhaps they want to deploy their game / content to more than just one device and platform. i.e. Maybe I want to deploy my Flash based game to the web, iPhone, Android and Palm Pre. Objective-C does not enable that.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 10:45 am

  185. [...] in an 20 April post, Adobe product manager Mike Chambers made it official. Said [...]

  186. This whole argument over Objective-C over Flash is ridiculous.

    I love Objective-C as much as the next guy, and I have to say I have never written a line of code in Flash.

    But try to build an animation or design a new experience by hand using Objective-C and one with Flash. Any designer will get the new experience done in a day, go through a dozen prototypes and wireframes and produce a working system within a week.

    At that point, I am still lost in a sea of CATransitions and CALayers and have a limited set of animation functions in Quartz (Oh yeah, Apple exposes 4 great animations, but the most advanced animations all 12 of them are restricted for Apple-only use).

    Guess who can create a new experience faster and can innovate faster?

    I am a great low-level programmer, but it is downright stupid to claim that Flash and Objective-C are on the same level.

    Use the right tool for the right job.

    This is Ridiculous

    21 Apr 10 at 10:54 am

  187. I have to wonder if I am one of the few open system proponents that stand up and applaud Jobs and Apple El Diablo for their lack of foresight and support of old broken business paradigms. Its a master stroke for the competition and everybody but apple benefits without having to do a thing! Bravo Steve Numbnuts! Keep up the great alienation work and evolve on this mobile platform into the same walled garden minor player you were in the PC space.

    Honestly, I cant wait for their next policy misstep and await it with baited breath! Keep it up guys!

    Ric

    21 Apr 10 at 10:56 am

  188. Good post mike, I think iPhone and iPad are good products but I never have been purchased one of those and I think never will happen either, I love google stuff, the nexus one and the android OS, But currently I have a blackberry device and I am happy with it the only thing I need in my blackberry is Flash and AIR, please Mike develop the flash and air for blackberry too, its a big platform and a lot of people have a blackberry device, I cant wait anymore to install it in my phone.

    Take care

    keep the good work on

    Angel

    21 Apr 10 at 11:04 am

  189. Jean-Louis Gassée is the “genius” who persuaded Steve Jobs in 1985 that nobody would ever catch up with the Mac interface, and that they should refuse to license MacOS to anyone else. Then he masterminded the development of the Macintosh Portable, a boat-anchor portable that nobody bought. Then he left Apple to form Be, and was the man behind the commercial failure that was BeOS. Then he turned down Apple’s offer to buy BeOS, selling it to Palm instead–where it was used for an Internet appliance that failed dismally. Then he became head of PalmSource, developing an OS for Palm devices that nobody wanted, not even Palm.

    If Jean-Louis Gassée thinks Apple is doing the right thing, Jobs must be signing the iPhone platform’s death warrant…

    mathew

    21 Apr 10 at 11:14 am

  190. @Ross: At least my book will stop my readers trying to use it to develop an app for the iphone.

    As I subtly mentioned (I agree with you): I don’t think it’s a good decision to still release the packager on CS5 – even it’s realeased just for prototyping.

  191. @Shaun:

    Just wanted to help you with English there. You wrote:

    ““I believe that ultimately open platforms will win out over the type of closed, locked down platform that Apple is trying to create.”*

    Fun Fact : Flash is NOT an open standard”

    If you’ll notice, in the above sentence the word following “open” is “platform”, not “standard”. They do have the same number of letters, but differ substantially in spelling and meaning. Hope that helps. Flash is an open platform because there are no restrictions on entry, not an open standard because there are not published standards on how to implement it. That said, open standards are awesome, but I’ll take open platforms over closed ones.

    Joshua Noble

    21 Apr 10 at 11:34 am

  192. Well speaking as your normal, everyday web designer…I feel as though its people like me who are the ones that are losing out. Forget all of this HTML5 vs Flash tosh, the real issue here is that every day developers like myself will now no longer have the opportunity to build for a very popular platform. I’m constantly being asked if I can produce iphone apps and I have 101 ideas of my own for apps that the itunes store is lacking. But do I have time to learn yet another bloated programming language? Be serious. I’m already working myself into the ground trying to survive a recession and spending the other few waking hours of each day keeping myself up-to-date with existing technologies such as the ever expanding AS3. So to all of those that think Apple are in the right, I suggest you visit the real world sometime where the rest of us live. Great post Mike, I couldn’t have said it better.

    Stu

    21 Apr 10 at 11:35 am

  193. I can’t wait until Flash comes out for the Palm! Palm applications are based on HTML, CSS and Javascript, which I think works great for most types of applications (although I don’t know where people get off calling H.264 an open technology … open if you’re willing to pay generously, I suppose). However, when it comes to games, especially those developed by small or one-man teams, Flash clearly has an advantage. With Box2D and Away3D I can have 3D and physics running quickly. By developing using an SWC from Flash CS4 and FlashDevelop as a code environment, I can benefit from excellent WYSIWYG graphics support, and, in my opinion, the best (or one of the best) code environments out there. Naysayers can argue as they wish, but I’m not about to build the next game using an HTML5 Canvas instead of using Flash. That sounds utterly silly to me.

    Joshua

    21 Apr 10 at 11:40 am

  194. Wow, never expected to stoke so much response…..I think my main point stands.

    @ Ross R – You make some good points but I have to disagree overall. My main point is Adobe’s behaviour is no different to Apple’s. Both want to restrict the user in choice. Apple limits the developer to development tools, Adobe wants to limit the underlying OS and hardware manufacturer to it’s open platform ala Java.

    Apple’s decision is also very understandable from a security point of view. Adobe products have become a particular vector of late and Adobe are very slow to update and respond. This open platform takes control of security from the manufacturer of the OS and puts it square in Adobe’s hands which are not particularly popular in the security community at the moment. Combine that with direct access to people’s personal data on a mobile device that could attack telecommunications networks and there are a whole list of reasons to get rid of unapproved 3rd party compilers.

    I disagree with the comparison with MS (but not completely). MS locked out all competing applications and technologies by denying inter-operability, in some cases intentionally introducing ‘bad code’ to sabotage rival applications running on Windows. I do think there is massive improvement to be done with the App Store and totally disagree with Apple’s handling on it as it’s very close to that red line.

    The standards point you make is a good one, but there comes a time when the existing standard becomes dead-weight on future development. IE may be standard but I’d say Firefox really re-ignited web browsing technology development for the better. Flash is quickly nearing that time. Flash may be popular for video and was a brilliant solution at the time, but Flash is now slowing the development of alternative video delivery techniques….Google and Apple would seem to agree. Apple is simply forcing the world to the more efficient model….Google may beat them to it if it releases that OnV8(?) codec it purchased.

    @Jesse Nicholson – I’m actually cross-platform (each to their own), not an Apple fanboy. Solaris is my choice anyday but that’s a dying platform now that Oracle has consumed them….but never let fact and assumption get in the way of your prejudices.

    @Matthias Wille – No patronising please Matthias. We are not confusing open-platform and open-source. We just haven’t drank the Flash kool-aid. IMHO I just don’t think we’re at Open platform quite yet, since you can’t have a truly open-platform based on a closed system (flash). Open platform has been muted in many variations. Flash is not an open platform, it is a propriety platform that is open to develop for. The difference is key. Developers are limited to the functionality that Adobe allow, and are restricted within those borders….they can’t really push and leverage the full power of the underlying OS and hardware. If flash/AIR are to survive, I think they’d need to be made truly open-source and open-licence. The web, UNIX, LINUX and JAVA are the real open platforms at the moment (there may be more). Flash is a proprietary plug-in within that eco-system.

    As for replacements for flash, I’m afraid they are coming quick and fast. H.264 (MPEG Group)/Ogg video delivery. The HTML5 spec is fast developing. Google are up to some cool stuff as well.

    Your assertion that Flash is on 100% of PC’s and laptops worldwide is incorrect. That much I guarantee. You’ll note, I haven’t said stop developing Flash for today. Today it still has a wide user base, today it still is the most efficient means to deliver capability to older browsers. But, there are now alternatives and the restrictions of Flash and the costs of licensing it have their detractors (How much does NYTimes pay to be able to deliver Flash video??? open platform, free? I think not)…..What I would recommend is absolutely continue supporting Flash while it brings you an income, but be aware there are alternatives and if you don’t start broadening your skillset now, you may be behind the times when Flash is no longer dominant.

    “Whilst I don’t mind to accept and welcome new and better standards, we cannot just dump the current standards. And one of the current (de-facto) standards is Flash. Whether we like it or not.”
    ….Why not? Try something different, see if it’s better. People once did that with Flash and it was perfect for the time.
    Time’s have now moved on…..Flash hasn’t kept up.

    I stick with my original assertion. For Flash/AIR to survive, they need to be opened up. Adobe still is a premier authoring tool vendor. Flash was a cash cow, but it has become a crutch and has been well and truly milked. Get over it. Move on. Start developing for 5-10 years down the line else Adobe will go under

    snowB

    21 Apr 10 at 11:50 am

  195. Aren’t we jumping to conclusions about what Apple will do in enforcing their new Terms?

    Why are you throwing in the towel now?

    Shawn Arney

    21 Apr 10 at 11:55 am

  196. Very well said, though we disagree about whether or not this is a bad thing and Apple’s primary goal.

    Is Adobe planning to develop a significant Flash-to-HTML5 conversion suite? Seems like you guys would make a mint.

    Geoff

    21 Apr 10 at 11:56 am

  197. Couldn’t Adobe create a “technically legal” App, that would actually be a “shell” for running CS5-developped applications, loaded from their own server, using Apple’s in-app subscription model ?

    I wonder if that would be a legal workaround … I mean, in the end, you’d be running a C++ app using Documented APIs.

  198. @Geoff


    Is Adobe planning to develop a significant Flash-to-HTML5 conversion suite?

    We showed some prototype work on this at Max last year.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 12:05 pm

  199. Quite honestly, I really don’t mind that Apple has such a stringent ULA for their applications. That does not bother me one bit actually. The thing that is absolutely wrong about their business practices is that they don’t allow the flash plugin into Mobile Safari.

    They most likely don’t allow it because they would lose total control of their app store. You *can* do the same thing with Flash and a web page that you can you do with their apps.

    Apple makes neat devices, but their browser which should be “open” is not actually open. If MS hadn’t won that earlier lawsuit, this one would be in court right now.

    Regardless of standards, the web is in a certain state right now (plugins and bad design included), I think that the one who can display it in it’s best natural state is going to be the one to win this ridiculous war.

    Seth Andrews

    21 Apr 10 at 12:05 pm

  200. @frypan
    “@snowB, So according to your theory, HTML5 will save us all with its advanced multimedia programming, cross browser abilities and lightning fast engine?”

    Your words and theory not mine. I didn’t say there are alternatives for everything.

    Flash is very good at some thing as you describe and HTML5 is not a complete replacement and probably won’t be for all Flash’s capabilities. However, for some things like video delivery, there are very real alternatives that are now much better. Some of Flash’s features are now being done better and Flash is not keeping pace with those developments. Flash can either work alongside those developments or try and hold them back. Adobe chose the latter, which I think was a poor choice.

    Flash is fast becoming legacy. It’s holding up innovation as Adobe’s single solution to the Web. Flash developers are worried because it means they need to update their skills. Adobe is worried because they make massive amounts of cash licensing it.

    Other companies are innovating portions of Flash capability and implementing it differently. Adbe could stick to authoring tools to ensure that creators get access to all those benefits both from Flash and others. The Adobe-supportive comments from posters on this forum seem to be to defend flash and deny the wider web benefiting from those developments because why would anyone not want Flash? Doesn’t it do everything brilliantly!….no, it doesn’t.

    snowB

    21 Apr 10 at 12:06 pm

  201. To Be perfectly honest, I think Apple are tripping balls. They want to control everything. It’s liked a mini new world order. I’m more slanted towards the Android because it does everything I want it to. The fact that Apple WILL NOT support Flash and Adobe AIR is ridicoulous. If the devices can’t support them that is fair enough but these devices are capable of rendering PSP-like graphics, and the PSP can run flash as well (Flash Player 6.) Hell even the Wii can run Flash Player. This is stupid. Why the hell is Apple not doing anything to support Flash. I’d rather code in C# but that’s a preference. Flash is much more widely supported than Objective C and much easier to learn and put on the web.
    My two cents.

    GideonB

    21 Apr 10 at 12:06 pm

  202. How long does it take to get to the next HTML/CSS standard. HTML 5 is still not out. It will make a big leap forward and then how many years before the next step (HTML 6)?

    I’m excited about what will be able to be done with HTML 5 but after a few years, I just know I will want more… Its like waiting for a George R. R. Martin – Song of Fire and Ice sequel.

    At lease Adobe regularly updates Flash.

    What will the web experience be on an Apple restricted browser when HTML 5 has lost its sparkle and HTML 6 is still in committee?

    Web Developer

    21 Apr 10 at 12:06 pm

  203. I wish that Adobe will Strike back with their Adobe CS6 and cancel mac version.

    Adobe CSx software are the nerve of Media Production nowadays. Removing them from MAC will make most users who are interested in Apple machine to think twice before planning to buy any new Apple Box.

    Adobe fan

    21 Apr 10 at 12:07 pm

  204. @Joshua

    Point taken. I can see how my comment wasn’t accurate. Thanks.

    Shaun

    21 Apr 10 at 12:10 pm

  205. Mike,

    I should have been clearer earlier. My previous comment was meant to illicit a response from you regarding CS5’s Flash-to-HTML5 capabilities.

    I highlighted this feature in my recommendation to my boss that we upgrade to CS5.

    From my perspective, the value of authoring in Flash and exporting to HTML can’t be overestimated.

    Mason

    21 Apr 10 at 12:26 pm

  206. [...] However, my biggest concern is the lack of Flash support. It is certainly a slap in the face for many game companies, but most notably Adobe. As a result, today Adobe issued a statement that it will stop support of its Flash packager for the iPhone and will be putting all its support around Android. Adobe’s own Flash product manager, Mike Chambers posted the following very relevant comments on his own blog: [...]

  207. If and when Android gets up to the quality and overall UX of the iPhone OS, then Apple will be in trouble. But until there’s a marketplace for Android apps like iTunes, Apple will still own the market. Open systems do ultimately prevail – with developers, but Apple also owns consumer branding.

    I’m not taking sides here. I have an equal love/hate relationship with Adobe/Flash and Apple alike.

    Jake

    21 Apr 10 at 12:51 pm

  208. Steven Jobs is a megalomaniacal control freak. I will never spend a cent on Apple technology until their closed and proprietary philosophy changes, which I can only assume will never happen. Oh, well. I hope Android kicks iPhone/iPad down a few notches.

    Daryl M

    21 Apr 10 at 1:00 pm

  209. To be frank, keep developing for the iPhone.
    It, in my opinion, would be of great satisfaction
    releasing Flash based apps on Cydia…..
    If, this is being don by more and more developers,
    Apple would, in the end have to listen.
    That is what freedom to chose is all about.

    O E Hansen

    21 Apr 10 at 1:08 pm

  210. My sentiments with you, Mike. and thank you for the post.

    Please keep up with the innovation and inspiration, as always. You have your devoted following.

    Kalyan Katika

    21 Apr 10 at 1:17 pm

  211. [...] Chambers, Principal Product Manager for developer relations for the Flash Platform at Adobe, has informed Flash developers that Adobe is unlikely to make any further investment in Flash CS5's export to iPhone app [...]

  212. @snowB


    Flash is fast becoming legacy. It’s holding up innovation as Adobe’s single solution to the Web.

    First, Flash has driven a ton of innovation on the web. Just look at the HTML 5 spec, and count the number of new features that have been in Flash for years. We plan to continue that innovation in the future, and expect that some of the new features we put in Flash, will eventually make it into HTML 6 (or whatever its called). In general, that is a win-win for everyone. The standards people have someone else paying for a testing features, and can then cherry pick those that stick. Developers and consumers get new functionality in the browser much earlier that they would other wise have.

    Regardless, you do realize that Adobe is also one of the (if not the) leader in web authoring tools also. We have a huge stake in the sucesse of HTML (and yes, that includes HTML 5).

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    mikechambers

    21 Apr 10 at 1:18 pm

  213. [...] original blog post reads differently: [...]

  214. Position Actionscript to output to HTML 5 canvas code and the platform should be good. The days of plugin architecture is coming to a close.

    Michael

    21 Apr 10 at 1:50 pm

  215. Kudos Adobe!

    You tried, and your efforts will not go to waste!

    Me, my Android phone, and all the Palm, Blackberry, Symbian and Windows Mobile devices are waiting for Flash 10.1 and the cool apps/games that Flex and Flash developer communities are working and will work on in future

    Thank you,
    Avinash

    Avinash

    21 Apr 10 at 1:52 pm

  216. Apple has always been like this and they have never learned from the past. Even Steve Jobs himself accepted in that wonderful interview along with Bill Gates, that Microsoft was better at building partnership; hence, they went pass Apple in PC market. Similarly, Apple is acting like a control freak and trusting only themselves to do it all. They have intentionally spoiled a great partnership with Adobe. This summer is going to change the game for mobile platform, as all major carriers will have one super android phone in their arsenal, phones that do almost everything better than iPhone.

    Jibran

    21 Apr 10 at 2:04 pm

  217. I recently purchased 2 iphones and a Mac Book Pro for developing iphone apps. The new TOS, have completely removed all my excitement for developing on the iphone.

    I’m moving to Google Web Toolkit GWT until Adobe figures out how to get all my flash content to export to HTML5.

    Mike

    21 Apr 10 at 2:06 pm

  218. I say, we get Google, to give away their devices for FREE. Stop the Apple flow and distribution to the world.

    The cost of the ipad is $200+ or something. So, have Google make that amount up on the back end somehow…ie, target advertising, some subscription service, limited % royalty on the sweet Flash apps. developed, to help help offset the cost of the device.

    People will stop considering the ipad as they’ll realize they won’t need it, because Google just gave them a FREE one.

    Regain influence in the market with the consumers and loyalty and good will follow to the developers and to those who made this happen. Freedom and opensource will prevail, because it will be tasted tangibly outside of the developer world.

    Google drastically undercuts The Apple Mafia and slowly takes over the world with it’s devices. Mike Chambers becomes the Mayor of this new dynasty and calls Mr. Stevie J. to say, how ya like me now ?!

    MikeJ

    21 Apr 10 at 2:10 pm

  219. Nice post Mike. I like the sober attitude that’s oft missing from many of the ignorant Apple fanatics and standardistas.

    I find it amazing that people forget how much Flash has bought to the web. I’m truly grateful and appreciative of you and Adobe’s hard work that has gone into Flash.

    Flash has brought me a lot of joy over the years, from rich web applications to games, its been fun and will continue to be so.

    Daniel Carvalho

    21 Apr 10 at 2:16 pm

  220. Export Flash –> SVG
    Export ActionScript –> JavaScript
    Export Flash video –> HTML5 video

    Invest in that –> problem solved.

    The Flash IDE could be an awesome WYSIWYG HTML5 dev tool! Plus, if you get it out soon, you can be on top when this stuff is becoming more and more mainstream. Flash could be what “everyone” uses to do great SVG stuff! Hurry!

    Bill

    21 Apr 10 at 2:23 pm

  221. I have always been an avid Apple geek but after their latest move, I think I will be going elsewhere. We have also recently abandoned various projects for the iPhone and iPad due to restrictive nature of development on these devices. Hope Apple realizes that it is 2010 and not the 80’s

    Derick Clack

    21 Apr 10 at 2:25 pm

  222. @snowB. Apologies if you felt patronised. It honestly wasn’t my intention.

    Maybe I have a different understanding of Open Platform then you. For me ownership and control over a platform nor the cost of using the platform is not what makes a platform an open or closed platform. In matter of fact I firmly believe that ownership and some level of control of a platform is important. However, if a platform offers me to choose the development tool of my choice and a distribution channel of my choice and allows me to run on my device (using that platform) whatever as been developed for that platform, then I consider this an open platform. Nothing of this is true for the iPhone / iPad. Again, maybe my understanding of an open platform is not exactly according to dictionary. I can live with that.

    Maybe Adobe decides to make the Flash Player open source, would this have any impact on the majority of Flash developers? Or on Flash as a web standard (which it is already…de-facto)? I don’t think so! Linux for instance is open source. How many developers are actually taking advantage of this? There are only a few major Linux version out there and I think it is good like that. In other words, making Flash open source would probably shut up a few people (or not), and allow a few to dig inside the Flash Players workings, but would have otherwise probably very little impact to the role the Flash platform has. In any case (open source or not), someone must keep control of what goes into the mainstream code of the Flash Player. Guess who that will be.

    I never said that 100% of the PC’s run Flash, I said NEARLY 100%. Well I don’t know the statistics exactly, but I believe around 92%. Well good enough for me to declare it a de-facto standard.

    And now I will eventually and intentionally get a bit patronising…HTML5 isn’t there yet. Whether it is going to be better or not is a matter that has to be seen. Dumping Flash at the current time for something that doesn’t really exist yet … “Why not?” shows me that you have very little ideas about economics. HTML5 will eventually become a new standard and the fact that the major players do work in the implementation of HTML5 is a good omen. However, even if in 5 years from now HTML5 will become a new standard, it will take another 10 years or more before Flash as we know it will disappear (if it will at all – I personally doubt it very much). Only in one point I agree with you: whilst HTML5 is developing to become a new standard, we should support the existing standard (Flash platform). Apple decided not to go this road (for whatever the real reason is). It remains to be seen if Apple made the right decision or not. Time will tell.

    With regards to my skill sets… well, by the time HTML5 is a new standard AND FLASH IS DEAD, I will probably be in pension and I hopefully don’t care much. For the time being I’m a happy and busy Flex/Flash/Domino/Java and from time to time .net developer. Enough diversity and standards (for me) to cope with.

    Matthias Wille

    21 Apr 10 at 2:37 pm

  223. Mike, thanks for the post!

    I’m wondering what Adobe is considering doing with the Flash to iPhone cross-compiler technology?

    Any thoughts about creating source Objective-C code instead of native iPhone bytecode?

    Perhaps an open-source project based upon a version of the Flash to iPhone cross-compiler?

    Darren

    21 Apr 10 at 2:47 pm

  224. Thanks for the dreams Adobe, short dreams though, and sad to see you won’t be pushing it further to find a proper solution.

    Some things to think about:

    Up to this day we can’t compile Flash games for Wii, xBox or Playstation neither and nobody complains about that, why is that?

    I have one theory: Adobe realizes is not possible to get into that closed source capitalist company owned platforms so is not worth it to even try and won’t drive us to dream about that possibility.

    Here are some news, even if the iPhone is a compelling platform to develop for, Apple is one of those companies too.

    In this case, as much as I love to work with Flash ( been doing Flash for like 10 years now) and my natural tendency is to advocate for it, when talking about Apple and closed platforms, it usually means a better product, it’s been like that for years and if that imposes some limitations, so be it, I don’t like it but I can live with that.

    Even if this bothers me a lot as a Flash developer, there’s still plenty of room for us to grow and expand on the iPhone or other places… no Android in my country yet though :) and for the ones saying for example: “I am not able to build Flash apps for the iPhone, but only because Apple is being a bitch”… man up and deal with it, there are other options!

    I believe Adobe has to admit they tried to jump on the iPhone big cash earning bandwagon, but failed miserably at landing a good deal with Apple before actually moving into it.

    Also consider this: even if Apple was ok with it, anyone wonders how often we would be able to get FlashCS updates to match with iPhone OS updates?

    As it is now Flash CS5 is already outdated with iPhone OS 4 already in beta 2… mind you I can still find bugs in Flash CS4 dating from Flash MX days, that tells a lot about Adobe fixing things.

    ————–
    Mike Chambers


    Up to this day we can’t compile Flash games for Wii, xBox or Playstation neither and nobody complains about that, why is that?

    Actually, you can use Flash to create games and content for all of those platforms. For example, EA Sports uses Flash in a lot of their console games, as has LucasArts.

    A quick google search will give you more information and details.

    mike chambers

    mesh@adobe.com

    Freddy

    21 Apr 10 at 3:01 pm

  225. Nice to see how you delete posts of people who disagree with you and make a forceful case. Nice work, Mike. You’ve managed to move me from being annoyed at Adobe to actually loathing Adobe. Can’t tolerate strongly argued dissent here in your little “walled garden.” Closed systems are deplorable, right? Unless you’re running them. Talk about hypocrisy.

    Adobe must be feeling very insecure to be engaged in this kind of campaign. As well you should. Gone from losing me as a customer to making me actively and enthusiastically hostile. I will be heard. Not here, obviously. Guess I’ll find another venue.

    James

    21 Apr 10 at 3:09 pm

  226. @Micheal “Position Actionscript to output to HTML 5 canvas code and the platform should be good. The days of plugin architecture is coming to a close.”

    I’ve seen this repeated more than once here, so to clarify once and for all:

    Adobe is already at work in creating an HTML5/Javascript exporter for Flash.
    http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/10/sneak_peek_ai_fl_dw_canvas.html

    Watch the video above. Timeline animation in flash, exported straight to Javascript/Canvas, and running in an HTML5 browser.

    Shawn

    21 Apr 10 at 3:21 pm

  227. Thank you Mike for your work.

    I believe ActionScript will eventually lead the internet. It is too much for everybody in the valley to allow a single firm to have full control of the internet.

    Flash Player has to become browser open source to keep its existence & ultimately become number one at the heart of web programming over JavaScript itself when ECMA4 will be around in the HTML5 context. Adobe still will be able to make money with Flash including a high performance components library besides desktop & device channels.

    Hardware beats software.

    In the middle of this fight is us trying to make a living in this mess while getting books on other languages to absorb as much as possible to remain competitive instead of being rejected.

    I Love Flash.

    Have a Great Day, San

    San Barandiaran

    21 Apr 10 at 3:32 pm

  228. Excellent post Mike.

    My point of view is that this is the first (and probaly not the last) explicit and public moving of what some analists are seen from a few years ago as Apple monopoly tactics based on software (.mov etc). Here in Europe this tactics takes Microsotf to a record penalty and to split the company in Europe. To me its clear than Apple knows that this hardware will have the same live expectancy than top selled tiny hardware as the first ipods. Also is very probably that continuing on this tactics will fall into a new record sanction by the CEE Comission.
    and another consideration, the war is not with Adobe. the Apple war is with Google, and its a lost war. In fact Google has won this first battle thanks to Adobe.

    David GG

    21 Apr 10 at 3:58 pm

  229. [...] That’s when Mike Chambers, Adobe’s principal product manager for the Flash platform, blogged Adobe’s decision to no longer invest in the ability for its Flash CS5 product to target [...]

  230. @ mike chambers

    “Actually, you can use Flash to create games and content for all of those platforms. For example, EA Sports uses Flash in a lot of their console games, as has LucasArts.”

    I’m already aware of a couple of third party tools with custom modified flash players for that but come on mike, I meant out of the box Adobe Flash solutions… and only to compare it with what Adobe offered for the iPhone and how some people are reacting to Apple’s move.

    Big expectations can’t be broken if nobody has them in the first place.

    Hopefully this won’t happen again with other platforms, and I know i’ll keep supporting both companies for work and personal matters ;)

    btw. lol at the note parenthesis.

    Freddy

    Freddy

    21 Apr 10 at 4:37 pm

  231. I use an Apple because it’s an integrated total solution. Much better quality than the typical windows stuff, at least for my professional design & development use. Windows has made me spending so much time to reinstalling and other unproductive stuff (virusses) that I not easily want to go back to windows again. I also use flash CS4 a lot on the mac and i am seriously considerating not to buy an new mobile products of Apple anymore. If Adobe would stop supporting Apple, i would understand and i would install bootcamp to run it under windows again. I really start to hate Apples lockin racketeering.

    Simon A

    21 Apr 10 at 4:44 pm

  232. Using a closed/proprietary platform/environment to keep off another closed/proprietary technology isn’t right.
    And while two rights make you head in the wrong direction, two wrongs definitely don’t make a right.

    I’d LOVE to see Apple open up it’s platform and store, but that’s probably less likely than Flash’s API and SDK be released to the opensource world under GPL. :-\

    Unless Apple can figure out how to monetize the creation and sale of apps under an open schema, I don’t see any of it happening.
    Sad though it may be.

    Grangoire

    21 Apr 10 at 5:27 pm

  233. I still cant believe apple blocked flash out from the iphone. even after they comply with all their rules. i love my iphone, but they shouldn’t do this. someone needs to organize a huge number of people to boycott apple products until they stop being so strict with no reason.

    apple is just hurting themself- there are so many much cooler apps that could be made much eaiser if they didn’t block flash.

    Josh

    21 Apr 10 at 5:50 pm

  234. Since this post, has Apple done anything publicly to indicate that they think the new terms apply to CS5? Have they actually removed any Flash-compiled applications from the App Store, or to our knowledge denied any applications because they were compiled by CS5?

    Sorry if I missed a specific post – I read everything by Chambers and skimmed the rest.

    Burton Radons

    21 Apr 10 at 6:57 pm

  235. Matt,

    I think you guys are missing an opportunity here. There is a whole community of iPhone users who have jailbroken their phones.

    Why doesn’t Adobe consider releasing the Flash Player via Cydia/Rockyourphone.

    Maybe even allow CS5 apps to be sold via Adobe’s site.

    I think this would be a good strategy.

    Jason the Saj

    21 Apr 10 at 8:07 pm

  236. [...] that Adobe has officially retired from trying to make Flash an authoring application for iPhone apps, many may be thinking the scuffle is over. However, I’d say it’s FAR from over, and in [...]

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