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« Parenting poll | Main | Botanical Wednesday: Somehow, it looks…aroused »

Episode LX: Revenge of the bunny

Category: Open Thread
Posted on: May 25, 2010 10:32 PM, by PZ Myers

We have a wicked, psychotic cat who went insane during a time when we were fostering other cats for the humane society — some cats just don't tolerate novelty and company — and ever since he's been plotting to kill me. The only reason we're keeping him around is that I'm pretty sure he's the feline anti-christ, and confining him to our house in Morris means he won't be conquering the world any time soon.

He attempted a prison break today, though, and ran loose in the yard for a while. And what happened? He found a baby bunny, killed it, and brought it back into the house. Then he gave me that "you're next" stare.

So I'm showing him this video now. I've told him that it's the mommy bunny, and she's joined the house guard, so he'd better not leave now.

Talk about anything but satanic cats.

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#1

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:43 PM

What? Behind the rabbit?

#2

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:46 PM

Reminds me of the guard bunny in Monty Pythons Holy Grail. I believe it took the the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to get past. And bunnies will chase cats too...

#3

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:46 PM

Wow, what was that rabbit trying to accomplish? BTW, it's so cool to see snakes climb/move through trees.

#4

Posted by: Pastor Farm Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:48 PM

I've found from personal experience that fostering cats is a great way to end up with way too many cats.

We have this enormous gray tabby named Chowder who absolutely loves kittens. Every one of them we get he cares for and grooms them. When they have to leave the house for any reason, he grows so upset that twice now (for four cats) we haven't had the heart to give them back to the shelter for adoption.

So now we have 9 cats. Three pre-Chowder and 5 since. It's quite a stinky conundrum. Please don't judge!

#5

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:49 PM

That was probably a mom bunny with a snake near her nest. (KPOD, take note of your mammalian Spawnprotecting duties.) I have house rabbits, and adult rabbits and cats get along pretty well. Plus house rabbits and shredded newspaper litterbox filler makes for really really happy yard vegetation.

#6

Posted by: mxh Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:50 PM

pygmy, yeah, I'd like to see what led up to the action.

#7

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:50 PM

Reminds me of the guard bunny in Monty Pythons Holy Grail. I believe it took the the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to get past. And bunnies will chase cats too...

Ahem.

I said, "What? Behind the rabbit?"

And you call yourself Nerd...

#8

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:52 PM

Benjamin:

It'd be a lot easier if I had a faster lens. Right now all I have is the kit lens, which isn't particularly fast. The lights were relatively dim even for an indoor scene, too.

To make matters worse, I was shooting at full zoom on most of my shots, so the aperture was f/5.6 on virtually all of them. Typical shutter speed was about 1/6 of a second, which is not usable for shooting moving subjects, such as, say, people giving speeches.

Yeah, a faster lens does help. A lot. When I'm shooting indoors now (like at the annual Drag Show), I crouch my way up the aisle so that I don't have to shoot at full zoom.

As for kit lenses, I think I lucked out, mine was an 18-135mm. It's my workhorse lens and I've found I can get great macro shots with it, so I spent bucks on a 300mm instead of a macro lens. Still, once you start buying lenses, it never stops. My lens lust has just gotten stronger.

#10

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 10:57 PM

And you call yourself Nerd...
*Hangs head in shame.*
#11

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:01 PM

Argh. KOPD, of course. And time to put this particular day, during which I spent far too much time online, behind me.

#12

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:06 PM

I have 8 rabbits frolicking in my backyard right now. I consider cats who kill baby bunnies evil incarnate.

I had two pet rabbits, a giant lop-eared rabbit named Carmel the size of a cat. She was a guard rabbit whose stomping scared away kids attempting to TP our house, and alerted us when the other rabbit attempted to flee the cage. As a teenager, she would charge the sliding glass door to scare away the neighbor's cat. Her kick could knock the wind out of you, and every morning she scratched furiously at the cage door and bared her teeth until we placated her with baby carrots. She was my darling ferocious baby who only let me hold her.

#13

Posted by: Geoffrey Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:11 PM

@Tis

PZ's cat waiting for PZ to come home.

Looks like the Texas Book Depository

#14

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:14 PM

PORTCULLIS'D!

Caine: Is that 18-135mm EF-S? If so, dayumn. Want.

I'm strongly considering getting a 55-250mm EF-S lens. For $200 or so, it doesn't seem to be a bad lens.

I really want an L-series lens, but holy crap. That's some serious fuck-the-Joneses luxury right there. My coworker keeps suggesting I buy the EF 70-200mm f/4L, but that's a bit more than I can spend right now.

#15

Posted by: JSW Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:16 PM

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes.
They've got those hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
And what's with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?

#16

Posted by: dexitroboper Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:17 PM

Cats that eat rabbits are good cats.

#17

Posted by: bastion of sass Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:18 PM

Whoa! Fierce bunny!! Go kick some snake, um...wait, snakes don't have asses...eh...tail?!

#18

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:22 PM

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes.

They've got those hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.

And nice incisors up front that can do some damage with a nip. All our extension cords had bite marks in them almost severing one of the wires. Fortunate for them, they didn't get down to both wires in the same bit.
#19

Posted by: ashleyfmiller Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:23 PM

If you eat only rabbit, you will die.

@JSW or maybe midgets?

#20

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:29 PM

Benjamin:

Caine: Is that 18-135mm EF-S? If so, dayumn. Want.

Specifically, it's the AF-S Nikkor 18-135mm 1:3.5-5.6G ED. I don't blame you, it's a great range to have.

I'm strongly considering getting a 55-250mm EF-S lens. For $200 or so, it doesn't seem to be a bad lens.

I say go for it. Recently, my husband came home with a Nikon D90 body for me so I could have two lenses mounted at hand. I refused it, because he'd been wanting a new camera for a long while. He decided on a 55-200mm lens for his workhorse lens (and about that cost too, so affordable) and he's gotten some prime shots with it. Very nice lens.

I really want an L-series lens, but holy crap. That's some serious fuck-the-Joneses luxury right there. My coworker keeps suggesting I buy the EF 70-200mm f/4L, but that's a bit more than I can spend right now.

Tell me about it. If I had a soul, the thing would be mortgaged six ways from Sunday to finance lenses. The last big buy was a 70-300mm. I had thought about a 70-200mm, but decided to spend a bit more for the 300mm because I take a lot of wildlife shots. It was worth the money, but damn, it hurts to drop that much all at one time.

When Rev. BDC shows up, don't get him started on lens lust, I think his list of wanted lenses is even longer than mine.

#21

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:29 PM

No reactions to the lentil soup yet?
red lentils are the tastiest of lentils.
#22

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:31 PM

Speaking of bunnies, I got some nice shots of the wild one living in our yard today. He/she was outside my studio window, munching the sunseeds I put out for the birds.

#24

Posted by: Falyne, FCD Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:33 PM

Wooooo, that was a crazy weekend.

I went back to my college for graduation. See, I technically graduated in January, after transferring back enough credits for my degree, so this would be the Commencement ceremony I could actually walk in. I didn't feel like dressing up and sitting in the same place for hours, listening to old official people and a YEC speaker, but I wanted to be there.

So, extremely little sleep, lots of social stuff with old friends, a decent quantity of alcohol, and other... relivings... of college life, and I am one tired puppy. Flew back home to CA around midnight last night, and have been sleeping, catching up on blogs, sleeping, watching tv, and sleeping since then. :-D

#25

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:33 PM

If you eat only rabbit, you will die.

That's one of the many things I learned watching Less Stroud on Survivorman. :) Now I just have to wait for the right time to put this little tidbit to use.

#26

Posted by: Falyne, FCD Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:35 PM

And now I need to get around to actually playing Portal! I bought the Orange Box on Steam back when it came out, but never played it. I know, I know, I'm a failure of a PC gamer.

But some of my good buddies won a puzzle contest, and are writing the next year's contest with a Portal theme, so if I want to help, I need to grok the game. Whee!

#27

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:36 PM

Caine:

Not sure if you're aware, but EF-S lenses are adjusted for 1.6x crop factor sensors. My 18-55mm lens is the equivalent of a full frame 28-88mm lens (after cropping). The 55-250mm EF-S lens is equivalent to 88-400mm on full-frame systems (such as EF).

How fast is your 70-300mm? The 55-250mm I'm looking at is f/4.0-5.6... not incredibly fast, but fast enough, I think.

Honestly, the reason I went with Canon over Nikon was because my coworker uses Canon and I'd like to be able to borrow his lenses. I'm impressed with Nikon's equipment, but...

#28

Posted by: Brian Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:39 PM

But it can jump -- ...!

#29

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:53 PM

So I just saw Colbert's episode with Deepak Chopra.

Deepak Chopra apparently gets his medical training from Persona 4. Except Atlus knows it's all bullshit, it's just fun to watch...

#30

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 25, 2010 11:58 PM

Benjamin:

I didn't know that about the EF-S lenses. Thanks!

How fast is your 70-300mm? The 55-250mm I'm looking at is f/4.0-5.6... not incredibly fast, but fast enough, I think.

It's f/4.5-5.6; fairly fast, not as fast as the 18-135mm though. Fast enough for most wildlife. I've finally been making a bit of cash with bird photography for a couple of stock sites, it does a wonderful job in that regard. I tend to keep the VR off, it can take a long time to focus, usually too long when it comes to birds. However, the VR is a serious plus in high wind situations and shooting from a vehicle. There is a bit of a fringing problem at times too, so I always have to pay attention to the exposure at all times.

Honestly, the reason I went with Canon over Nikon was because my coworker uses Canon and I'd like to be able to borrow his lenses. I'm impressed with Nikon's equipment, but...

I'm not one of those people who thinks there's some sort of camera war between Canon and Nikon. They both make fine cameras. Most gearheads who want to argue that are idiots who rarely actually get out and shoot. Having access to more glass is always a good thing! One of the reasons I went with Nikon is that all the Nikkor lenses, no matter how old will fit modern bodies. I haunt pawn shops looking for lenses, you can find some great deals. The old lenses don't have autofocus, but that's no big deal.

#31

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:02 AM

If you eat only rabbit, you will die.

That's one of the many things I learned watching Less Stroud on Survivorman. :) Now I just have to wait for the right time to put this little tidbit to use.

[Disgustedly throws remainder of rabbit enchilada—grilled shredded rabbit meat tossed with rabbit cheese and garnished with rabbit salsa all wrapped in rabbit skin tortilla—in Rabbit Hut™ wrapper and reaches for diet...Coney?!]

Fucking fly-by-night food court franchises. Criminal. Damn criminal is what they are.

Seriously though, I thought that was a myth (you hear it a lot growing up in a city that was a fur trading post just over a hundred years ago.)

#32

Posted by: Ben Goren Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:03 AM

Benjamin, good glass is definitely worth it. And, it’s affordable, too, so long as you budget for it. A $1000 lens could be yours this time next year if you drop a Jackson in the cookie jar every week.

As Caine mentioned, zooming with your feet helps with slow zooms. That alone would have gotten your shutter speed up to 1/20, which at least puts you in the realm of possibly getting one lone shot, maybe.

Between the lens mount and budget you’re discussing, I’ll guess you’ve got a relatively modern Rebel. If so…well, first, how large are you printing? Because, if your printer sits on your desktop, you should be able to get away with ISO 1600 with impunity, and ISO 3200 should be just fine for most purposes. Depending on what ISO you were shooting at before, that should get you comfortably into handholding range.

One trick most amateurs aren’t aware of is what I think of as “poor man’s image stabilisation.” Put the camera in burst mode, take a deep breath, relax and let it all out, gently squeeze the shutter, and keep holding it down for a burst of several frames. Chances are excellent the shutter will fire at least once at the extreme end of your own movement, and not bad that the subject will be reasonably still at the same moment. Sure, you’ll have to wade through a dozen exposures of the exact same scene just to find the best one, but your “film” is dirt cheap.

Back to the subject of gear…long before I’d get the 55-250, I’d get some telephoto primes.

If you don’t already have the 50 f/1.8, buy it now. Don’t even think about it.

Next, I’d get one of the 100mm (ish) macros. Canon has two excellent ones to pick from, but all the third-party manufactures also have excellent lenses in this range. They’re reasonably fast (f/2.8 is common) and optically excellent. Sharp enough to put your eye out, with a flat field and minimal vignetting. Plus, as a bonus, you can fill the frame with a postage stamp.

The 50 and the macro will be your “go-to” lenses for portraiture. And, unless you’re doing sports or wildlife, they’ll be as long as you need.

If you’re doing sports and / or wildlife, that 55-250 will be waaaay too slow for you to be happy. On a budget…I’d probably save up for the 200 f/2.8 L and a teleconverter.

Me? I’ve got all the gear I need for the time being. I’m saving up (over a long period of time) for a 50 f/1.4 (I’ve got the f/1.8 and the f/2.8 macro), a 35 f/1.4 (for wide stuff I reach first for the TS-E 24 II and then the 16-35, but those are both slow)…and a 400 f/2.8 (the 300 f/4 is sweet and plenty for most things, but the 400 would open up whole new worlds). Oh — and a Pentax 120mm medium format macro lens with adapter for copy work. The 50 and 180 macros are amazing for that sort of thing, but that Pentax is inexpensive and reported to be even better still.

Cheers,

b&

--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''

#33

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:07 AM

Official congratulations Falyne! YEC Speaker? WTF?

#34

Posted by: Falyne, FCD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:13 AM

Brownian: To be fair, he was selected not because of the YEC thing, but because he's a famous neurosurgeon. He did make some veiled remarks about the importance of diversity of opinion in academia, but for the most part, he was actually a surprisingly good speaker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson

A number of faculty and students wore Darwin stickers in protest, nonetheless.

#35

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:13 AM

Seriously though, I thought that was a myth (you hear it a lot growing up in a city that was a fur trading post just over a hundred years ago.)
not a myth, but doesn't have anything to do with rabbits specifically. it's just that humans can't survive a diet too high in protein (and therefore too low in fat and carbs), because not enough of the protein can be transformed into energy. you basically starve from eating nothing but lean meat.
#36

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:14 AM

Ben Goren:

First off, I'm using a 350D ("Digital Rebel XT"). I bought it from eBay; I'm seriously considering selling it on eBay and buying a Rebel XS instead, if only for the improved kit lens.

I'm familiar with "zooming with my feet". The room setup prevented me from getting any closer. We meet in a bank conference room, with a *huge* circular table, and I had to shoot from the other side. The wider shots weren't blurred, so the biggest problem there was a narrow aperture.

I was using a tripod most of the time, and a monopod the rest of the time. The biggest problem wasn't camera shake, it was subject movement. That being said, my tripod is a POS, and I intend to return it. Damn thing wobbles, and I have to mount the camera backwards or I get jabbed by the pan/tilt lever.

#37

Posted by: Givesgoodemail Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:16 AM

Mark Twain's biography is due out later this year!

Yeah!

#38

Posted by: Falyne, FCD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:18 AM

The Commencement Invocation, on the other hand, caused my eyes to bulge and veins to throb in my forehead. I don't remember the *exact* phrasing, but there was a sentence that went along the lines of "As we stand here, in the world of humanism, celebrating our intellectualism... let us remember that the most important thing here is You."

(The words 'humanism' and 'intellectualism' were said with the usual tones denoting "silly Worldly things God's People are led astray by". I'm sure you all know what I mean.)

#39

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:20 AM

Benjamin:

That being said, my tripod is a POS, and I intend to return it.

Good. It's more cost, but it's important to have a high quality tripod. I forked over more money than I wanted to, but I got a heavy duty tripod that is really heavy. Living on the prairie with *very* high winds, that was an important factor for me. I don't use a tripod much, but when you want one, the quality matters.

#40

Posted by: Fortknox Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:23 AM

From my extensive watching The Atheist Experience show, reading black atheist bloggers, and listening to podcasts and youtube videos there is a clear pattern which can not be denied.

Black people are far more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people.
Both in deeds and in thinking.

My guess is that it has a great deal to do with ghettoization of their communities and subculture, black churches, the extra effort to enthral themselves in delusions because of greater
absurdity of them being both black and christians at the same time, given the history.

How you came to the conclusion that I'm a racist for saying that is beyond my comprehension.

You are truly lazy, sloppy bunch of people quick to label and insult anyone who goes out of the PC box.

#41

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:25 AM

Caine:

I spent $25 on my tripod. Yeah.

Honestly, the main reason I got a tripod was because I intend to photograph the fireworks this coming Independence Day, and it's impossible to hand-hold (or even monopod) a camera for 10s+ exposures. But this one isn't worth the $25 I spent. I'll see if I can borrow my coworker's tripod instead (or buy a good one in the next month).

BTW, on that subject: which lens(es) would you recommend for fireworks photography?

#42

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:27 AM

Comment by Fortknox blocked. [unkill] ​[show comment]

Shut the fuck up, you racist slime.

#43

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:28 AM

Cleanup, aisle 40!

#44

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:30 AM

tossed with rabbit cheese

You milked a rabbit?

Re Fortknox: is this transferred over from another thread, did I miss something, or did you just start a conversation in the middle? Or possibly some combination?

#45

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:30 AM

Benjamin:

BTW, on that subject: which lens(es) would you recommend for fireworks photography?

Oh boy. I haven't done a lot of fireworks shots, but when I have, I used my 18-135mm. Worked well. My husband got some recent fireworks shots with his 55-200mm and I think they were much better than mine. I think this is one of those questions that might get a different answer from everyone. :D

#46

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:31 AM

cicely: He seems to be dumping his bullshit across multiple threads. He's just a cut-and-paste douche.

#47

Posted by: Fortknox Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:31 AM

There you go again, calling me racist, WTF is wrong with you people?

#48

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:32 AM

Fortknox:

I'll make a deal with you. Stop being racist, and we'll stop calling you racist.

Agreed? Or are you going to have to go fuck off somewhere else?

#49

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:35 AM

Cicely:

Re Fortknox: is this transferred over from another thread, did I miss something, or did you just start a conversation in the middle? Or possibly some combination?

He/She/It has been spewing its racist screeds all over this thread: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/05/dont_give_them_ideas.php#c2543384

Now it's not happy at being called a racist and wants all of us to stop and apologize and recognize its genius for being all un-PC and out of the box.

#50

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:36 AM

Haley:

I have 8 rabbits frolicking in my backyard right now.
I had to read that twice, because at first I thought you had said they were fucking. Then, the next thought I had was, "Why is she watching rabbits fuck? What a sicko!" Whew! Am I ever glad for a wrong first impression!

Then again, it can't be much worse than the photography nerds who showed up for this shindig. Ew!

#51

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:39 AM

From my extensive watching The Atheist Experience show, reading black atheist bloggers, and listening to podcasts and youtube videos there is a clear pattern which can not be denied.

Wow. I didn't realise every hack comic from the 80's was actually conducting science.

Any other groundbreaking revelations? Perhaps you've got some insights into how women always want to talk about their feelings but men just want to watch the Superbowl? Amiright fellas? Who's with me?

You are truly lazy, sloppy bunch of people quick to label and insult anyone who goes out of the PC box.

Another observation based on your "extensive reading" of this blog, eh? I'm sure the Nobel Committee will be squealing in delightful anticipation of your latest humanity-changing research.

Fuck, there's nothing sadder than a bigot who thinks he's brave for standing up to minorities.

Go, man, go! You tell 'em!

Here's a fucking participation ribbon just for you, Hero.

#52

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:40 AM

Me:

Then again, it can't be much worse than the photography nerds who showed up for this shindig. Ew!
Oh, snap! Just as I am typing this, Fortknox shows up. You're off the hook for now, photography nerds...but I'm watching you!

As for you, Fortknox, if you aren't a racist, then what are you? Explain yourself. You have one chance to prove to me that my first impression of you is wrong.

#53

Posted by: Fortknox Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:41 AM

Did you watch The Book of Eli?

Is there something specific about Denzel Washington being a lead in most idiotic religious movies?

#54

Posted by: Feynmaniac, Chimerical Toad Superhero Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:47 AM

Black people are far more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people.
How you came to the conclusion that I'm a racist for saying that is beyond my comprehension.

Seriously, STFU.

Did you watch The Book of Eli?

Is there something specific about Denzel Washington being a lead in most idiotic religious movies?

Oh yeah, because there's no movies with white religious characters.....
Go take your racist nonsense to Stormfront.

#55

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:47 AM

deriamis:

You're off the hook for now, photography nerds...but I'm watching you!

Oh shut up, deriamis. It's not like we take over the endless thread on a constant basis.

Fortknox, PZ already said that you were close to being banned. So, why don't you shut your racist trap already?

#57

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:47 AM

There you go again, calling me racist, WTF is wrong with you people?

You're the fucking observational genius; you figure it out. Hey, perhaps after extensive reading, you'll have enough data for another hypothesis. So, uh, make like a scientist and shut the fuck up and observe.

Oh, here's a confounder: sometimes we like to call fucks like you ball-less dipshit morons. Go find yourself a grant and I'll be happy to send as much data your way as you can handle.

#58

Posted by: Chris, Floridian Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:48 AM

Of course his cat hates him, everyone knows that cats have a direct line to god, the devil, and every other deity (to get the best rates on their lives, how else would they pull off getting?). Clearly some deity has some unresolved beef with the good professor.
[/sarcastic tomfoolery]

Of course it would be a reference to cats that would get me to stop lurking and finally make a post.. I wish my cat could catch and kill a bunny, but no, it got beat up by a duckling. A duckling.

#59

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:48 AM

Fortknox:

Is there something specific about Denzel Washington being a lead in most idiotic religious movies?
What the Sam Hill does this have to do with the price of tea in Ceylon?

#60

Posted by: Falyne, FCD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:49 AM

There's trolls that are fun chew-toys, and then there's trolls you just want to go AWAY. I do believe we've got one of the latter here.

#61

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:51 AM

jcmartz:

I'd lay money on it being due to the Clever Hans effect.

#62

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:51 AM

Falyne:

I do believe we've got one of the latter here.

We do indeed.

#63

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:53 AM

Chris:

Heh. My brother got beat up by a chicken once. Birds can be vicious.

#64

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:53 AM

What the Sam Hill does this have to do with the price of tea in Ceylon?

Fuckwit is unhinged.

"Listen to me-e-e-e-e-e! I have a bunch of tenuously connected anecdotes that I'm convinced means something! Why do you keep calling me stupid?"

#65

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:54 AM

Caine:

Oh shut up, deriamis. It's not like we take over the endless thread on a constant basis.
What? Photography nerds were the only people in school who were picked on more than me, so I am just continuing the tradition. Really, though, photography is something I have always wanted to take up, and I seem to have some small talent for it, but I have never seemed to get around to it.

#66

Posted by: Falyne, FCD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:58 AM

Although, in a broken-watch-twice-a-day sense, there *IS* something of a discussion to be had re: religious movie casting, in critiquing Hollywood for its frequent stereotypical portrayal of POC as 'wise spiritual folks', a la "Magical Negros".

That is to say, Hollywood can be just as bigoted as Fortknox himself. I don't know why he's bringing that up, though... His argument seems to be "this stereotype exists, therefore I'm justified in believing this stereotype." Which doesn't have anything to do with the price of anything anywhere, no.

#67

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:58 AM

Hey! I just noticed something. Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris, and Jean-Claude Van Damme were all leads in mostly martial arts movies! Based on my extensive research, I believe this means White People Are All Ninjas!

I cannot fathom why you all haven't immediately granted me an honorary PhD.

OH WHY WON'T THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY LISTEN TO ME?!

#68

Posted by: smsprite Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:59 AM

http://www.feliway.com/us

We have this for our cats. We've used it when we've moved and when we've introduced them to other pets. Maybe it will help alleviate the stink eye?

#69

Posted by: colin.burgess Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:02 AM

Maybe I'm showing my internet age, but I can't believe that no-one has made the observation that this is actually a video of Bun Bun in action!

#70

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:14 AM

Brownian:

Fuckwit is unhinged.
"Listen to me-e-e-e-e-e! I have a bunch of tenuously connected anecdotes that I'm convinced means something! Why do you keep calling me stupid?"
Like I said, this is my first impression. I'm giving Fortknox the only chance he/she/it will ever get from me to change it.

If you have ever read The Man Who Never Missed, you will know why I do this.

#71

Posted by: Harbo Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:19 AM

PZ Ease up on your cat.
IT is not the anti-christ.
That honour goes to the turtle "Squirt" my house.

#72

Posted by: stellar.ash Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:19 AM

@69 colin.burgess Maybe a relative of Bun-Bun. Has no switchblade and would've made a snakeskin something by the end of the video.

reference: http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/970912

#73

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:22 AM

deriamis:

Really, though, photography is something I have always wanted to take up, and I seem to have some small talent for it, but I have never seemed to get around to it.

It's never too late, and you don't have to spend a fortune, either. I started with a little Nikon Coolpix L1 (which I still have) and got some great shots with it too. That was the first camera I ever owned and that was in 2006. I really wish I had started when I was young, but I dived into photography headfirst, I seriously enjoy it.

#74

Posted by: Usagichan Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:22 AM

I can't believe that no-one has made the observation that this is actually a video of Bun Bun in action!

I'm probably biased, but I thought it was clearly rare footage of Miyamoto Usagi.

Added to the original video at the top of the thread clearly proves, that in addition to white people (@ Brownian) rabbits are also all Ninja!

#75

Posted by: Ben Goren Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:26 AM

Benjamin, the XT should be all the camera you need for quite some time. Sure, the newer bodies are better in lots of ways, but it’s much more than adequate. Spend the money on glass, instead.

Fireworks can be hella fun to photograph. The most important thing is to remember to actually look at and enjoy them; the camera is really just an excuse to stake out the best place you can.

Pretty much any lens will work for photographs. What you really want to remember is that you’re not taking pictures of the fireworks per se but of an interesting night scene made that much more special by the presence of the fireworks.

Ideally, you’ll want to stake out your spot ahead of time. If there’s interesting architecture, figure out where the airbursts will be in relation to them. Fireworks are often done over water, and the reflections are usually more interesting than the actual fireworks; shoot for both. And, of course, there’s all the crowds with upturned faces.

You’ll want to shoot at about f/8 with a shutter speed around 8 seconds and whatever ISO you need to expose the foreground to your taste — probably in the 400 - 800 range. Be careful to avoid overexposure, as that’ll drain all the color out of the fireworks. Manually focus, of course. Be aware that re-focusing once it gets dark will be nigh on impossible, so think about some gaffer’s tape to keep from accidentally jiggling it. A cable release (or wireless remote) is almost mandatory.

Have some fun trying to time the shutter release, but don’t get too anal about it. Instead, just keep absentmindly firing the shutter until you’ve filled up your card(s) while enjoying the spectacle. Wait until the next day to sort through it all looking for the One Perfect Shot™.

Oh — don’t forget that you’ll ideally be setting up during the Magic Hour. Keep your eye out for great light and a colorful sunset, and don’t feel bad if your best shots of the evening are from before the sun sets. It’s nice to have a second body at hand for that sort of stuff, but, again, your budget right now is better spent on other things.

(On the subject of tripods, don’t forget the head. Ideally, you’d get a ballhead with a quick release plates, but it’s easy to spend more on just the ballhead than you did on the camera itself. The Manfrotto 3021 is the go-to standard, but it seems to be discontinued, now. Something comparable with a not-bad head should cost $150 or so, maybe a bit more. Maybe you can get a closeout deal on the 3021 or find one secondhand.)

Cheers,

b&

--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''

#76

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:27 AM

Brownian:

Hey! I just noticed something. Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris, and Jean-Claude Van Damme were all leads in mostly martial arts movies! Based on my extensive research, I believe this means White People Are All Ninjas!

Don't you mean "White Men Are All Ninjas!" ? If you're going to be Fortknoxian, gotta go all the way.

#77

Posted by: Feynmaniac, Chimerical Toad Superhero Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:29 AM

He found a baby bunny, killed it, and brought it back into the house. Then he gave me that "you're next" stare.

My dog did pretty much the same thing, except she walked around, head up high, with the rabbit in her mouth. I think she expected us to be proud of her but my mother was just horrified.

Oh, while we're on the story of rabbits, in grade 1 my class had a pet rabbit. Every weekend a different kid would bring it home to take care of. Well, comes my weekend. At my house my three younger siblings and I build a maze out of pillows and chased the rabbit through it. My brother would also grab the rabbit and would basically wave it around. My mother found it later dead behind a couch and, being a doctor, determined that the rabbit died of a heart attack.

#78

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:30 AM

This thread has reminded me of Watership Down. I used to read it about once a month, but I haven't read it for years! I'm off to go find my well loved paperback...

#79

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:37 AM

Caine:

I really wish I had started when I was young, but I dived into photography headfirst, I seriously enjoy it.
Unfortunately, I am in the position right now that I can only focus on things that will make me money. I just don't have the time for hobbies, these days - even the ones I already have! I will one day, though. Right after I learn those five languages I have been meaning to get to.

Don't you mean "White Men Are All Ninjas!" ? If you're going to be Fortknoxian, gotta go all the way.
Well, I certainly am! Kiaiiii!
#80

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:45 AM

Ugh. Racists, sexists, MRAs. Too many douchebags for one night.

Brownie's gettin' angry!

Time for bed.

#81

Posted by: MadScientist Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:55 AM

That's why I'd encourage the anti-christ-cat to kill baby bunnies. Poor serpent - what's it ever done to deserve such harassment? Or was that god's curse to serpents - to be eternally tormented by stinkin' lagomorphs?

#82

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:01 AM

deriamis:

Unfortunately, I am in the position right now that I can only focus on things that will make me money.

I know how that goes. I'm fortunate to be making money with my photography.

#83

Posted by: bolasanibk Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:22 AM

Oooh boy, let see.

What I have right now is a Canon Rebel XT, one 18-55 and one 70-300 and one not so bad tripod.

What I need, one 50 mm prime, one 500mm prime, one 70-200 f2.8, one 18-135, one good tripod and a set of ND filters.

Seeing as how I have just got back to a job after being an unemployed bum for a year, I really cant afford to go around spending my money on things like hobbies.

Goes to a corner of the room to cry his heart out.

Oh, and a trivia, if you are using a tripod turn the AF off.

#84

Posted by: Fortknox Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:25 AM

*sigh*
I bet if I would do a poll among black atheists who live in black communities about whether it is far more likely that black people are more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people, it would confirm the pattern, of which underlying mechanisms I already hypothesized.

So sad to see a legitimate discussion sink away in the PC swamp here...

And you continually go out of your "rationalist character" by failing to notice that for someone to be a racist he has to have underlying irrational beliefs and over-encompassing generalizations, my purported explanations are not irrational nor are any implications.

Do I claim that there are no smart, rational black people? No, that was clear from the very beginning. Why the hell would I think that skin pigmentation and other superficial features would have any inherent effects on how the mind works?

You are being quite stupid and dishonest actually, I guess it is hard to get a perspective of some frames of thinking, in this case the PC frame, which makes you look foolish, inconsistent and intellectually lazy automatons.

#85

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:29 AM

You got it, MadS. Poor snake.

Damn mammals anyway.

#86

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:30 AM

Interesting :

Cambrian creatures did not disappear

#87

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:36 AM

What? Behind the rabbit?

Looks like a meadowlark. Too fuzzy to say Eastern or Western.

#88

Posted by: Dust Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:41 AM

Chris, Floridian (currently) @ 58 confessed:

I wish my cat could catch and kill a bunny, but no, it got beat up by a duckling. A duckling.

This really cracks me up, in fact, I think I will even be chucking over this tomorrow.

Sorry, dude.

#89

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:01 AM

Fortknox:

I bet if I would do a poll among black atheists who live in black communities about whether it is far more likely that black people are more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people, it would confirm the pattern, of which underlying mechanisms I already hypothesized.
You don't have an hypothesis without an observation if you're doing your science right. Do the polls before you start talking about what the results would be. Then you start hypothesizing as to why.

Not that the point isn't moot anyway. The research has been done, over and over again, and it has been shown that education, and also therefore low socioeconomic status, are the proximate causes of creationist beliefs. The fact that a disproportionate percentage of "blacks" fall into that category easily explain your contention.

So sad to see a legitimate discussion sink away in the PC swamp here...
Wait...I remember this from somewhere. SlantedScientist, is that you?
And you continually go out of your "rationalist character" by failing to notice that for someone to be a racist he has to have underlying irrational beliefs and over-encompassing generalizations, my purported explanations are not irrational nor are any implications.
You engaged in a hasty generalization and your explanations and implications are indeed irrational because you haven't yet tried to defend them - despite my asking you to do so. So, yes, you have all the qualities you have identified as racist. Even so, I think you are merely bigoted. I'm asking you to prove me wrong.
Why the hell would I think that skin pigmentation and other superficial features would have any inherent effects on how the mind works?
I don't know. Why would you comment on this, despite the fact that nobody has brought up the subject of race and then completely ignore all objections to your arguments by calling them "stupid" without addressing them? And then you keep doing it over and over again.

Wait. I really have to know, now - is this SlantedScientist?

I guess it is hard to get a perspective of some frames of thinking, in this case the PC frame, which makes you look foolish, inconsistent and intellectually lazy automatons.
Hmph. I don't know how anyone around here gets accused of being PC. I do, however, know how someone gets labeled with something that doesn't really belong to them. That's why I gave you your one chance to prove me wrong. You aren't doing very well so far.
#90

Posted by: Kliwon Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:04 AM

All, since part of this discussion is about cameras, has anyone heard of the adaptor that Canon produced to enable you to use FD lenses on its EOS cameras? I couldn't find one in Australia, but I hoped that they may be some floating around on the second hand market in the U.S. I want to fit my EOS camera on Canon's autobellows unit, which has FD lens mounts.

#91

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:34 AM

Recently, my husband came home with a Nikon D90

I've been using one since the day they came out retail.

awesome camera for the price, very sturdy, very reliable, takes great shots, excellent camera for raw photos.

I mostly use it with a Sigma 150mm 2.8 macro.

Now, if there was only one thing left to ask for, it would be for Nikon to update the rom on that camera, take care of the final niggling autofocus issues.

fortunately, much of the stuff i snap is manual focus anyway.

the hi-res video mode has been fun to play with too. used it to macro vid fish behavior to good success, and even used it to record a lecture or two!

#92

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:37 AM

deriamis, thanks for smacking the troll down. I don't think this is Slanted Science though- I'm pretty sure hyperion is a known troll possibly dating before SS.

If these sexist/racist/etc trolls remain active for the next couple days, I think it will be time for another round of Survivor.

#93

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:38 AM

Why the hell would I think that skin pigmentation and other superficial features would have any inherent effects on how the mind works?

strange.

you're doing an excellent job of imitating someone who does.

#94

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:43 AM

Ideally, you’d get a ballhead with a quick release plates, but it’s easy to spend more on just the ballhead than you did on the camera itself. The Manfrotto 3021 is the go-to standard, but it seems to be discontinued, now.

i highly recommend the Manfrotto 055xprob tripod, and the 488rc2 head on top.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=manfrotto+055xprob&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=14818671312215708553&ei=wdD8S6LpBMyOkQWm_8COBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCYQ8wIwAg#

you can get both for less than 250.00 new.

#95

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:52 AM

Haley:

deriamis, thanks for smacking the troll down.
It's my pleasure. No thanks are needed.

I don't think this is Slanted Science though- I'm pretty sure hyperion is a known troll possibly dating before SS.
I'm just commenting on the similarity of behavior in the hopes of prompting self-reflection. Not that I expect it to work, but you know.
If these sexist/racist/etc trolls remain active for the next couple days, I think it will be time for another round of Survivor.
I hope not. The last round we had was considerably less fun than I thought it would be.

Ichthyic:

you're doing an excellent job of imitating someone who does.
I don't think it's imitation. But hey, I might be wrong - though Fortknox is doing a great job of incriminating him/her/itself so far.

#96

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:56 AM

deriamis, thanks for smacking the troll down. I don't think this is Slanted Science though- I'm pretty sure hyperion is a known troll possibly dating before SS.
hyperon != fortknox != SlantedScience; they are however all rather annoying in their bigotry.
#97

Posted by: DLC Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:02 AM

Obviously all this talk of cameras is just kwok-bait. :-)

#98

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:06 AM

gah, I can't tell them apart. there's also that ior3984jrff something MRA guy whose getting on my nerves.

#99

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:13 AM

gah, I can't tell them apart. there's also that ior3984jrff something MRA guy whose getting on my nerves.
ah yes, that one. I think i finally figured him out: he's similar to those people who get upset that people still talk about racism, even though the Civil Rights Act passed, and blacks are now on paper equal.

IOW, he is against blatantly obvious, legal misogyny and sexism, but the more insidious, cultural stuff is invisible to him and he thinks women fighting that are just trying to fuck over men.

#100

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:14 AM

Also, Jadehawk, I love you. I'm totally a secret fangirl and I love watching you debate the trolls. it doesn't seem appropriate to fawn all over you in the midst of a battle so I'll do it in the open thread while I know you're reading. :P

#101

Posted by: SaintStephen Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:16 AM

That's the most foul, cruel, bad-tempered rodent that I've ever set eyes on.

(I know, old hat.)

Clearly, that snake needs to do more cardio work. Only five strikes at the boing-boing, and then it's head for the TREES? A protein shake wouldn't hurt, either.

How embarrassing for a hench-reptile of Satan hisssssssss-self.

#102

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:16 AM

*blush*

#103

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:20 AM

Jadehawk:

IOW, he is against blatantly obvious, legal misogyny and sexism, but the more insidious, cultural stuff is invisible to him and he thinks women fighting that are just trying to fuck over men.
Wait, they're not?

::ducks::

I don't think I will ever get people like this. I have no concept for how a woman is not the equal of a man, so I just don't have the frame of reference for it. It's disgusting to watch, too, because it reminds me of all the times I nearly lost a job for being gay. 'Cuz, you know, the fruit will try and molest the customers and stuff or might start mincing about and calling the customers "honey".

Well, to be fair, I did that last part, but the customers thought it was absolutely fabulous service.

#104

Posted by: tamakazura Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:40 AM

I'd just like to say that this thread was more interesting in the first ten posts after #9 when I thought you all were discussing the great sight on sniper kitty's rifle. But noooooo.
http://www.catswhothrowupgrass.com/kill.php

#105

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:46 AM

I think that if you accept some feminist principles, but don't see the cultural issues still holding women back, you can be taught. I used to be very ignorant (still am, but I try to be more aware of it) and I thought that all race issues stemmed from class. I've been learning slowly!

#106

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:52 AM

Re hobbies: commenting here is my hobby.

And some Pharyngulites are now friends with me on Facebook, and therefore know (broadly) what I look like... so next time I'm complaining about my appearance in a discussion about relationships, I'll have independent witnesses to confirm just how bad I really look. :-)

On another note:

If these sexist/racist/etc trolls remain active for the next couple days, I think it will be time for another round of Survivor.

Hmmm... Fortknox should be banned outright, as he's nothing but a racist troll. Hyperon is a special case since he has a long history here. The others, though, do seem to have comprehensible, even if wrong, points to make. Having years of experience of being wrong and subsequently changing my mind, I can attest that the best way to approach someone who is, as it were, WOTI is to argue with them and explain why they're wrong.

Often, well-intentioned people simply don't have the life-experience to understand the reality of the things they're talking about. I speak from experience here. As a middle-class white guy, I grew up in a kind of unconscious privilege which neither I, nor the people around me, was aware of; and I used to hold some naive, idiotic beliefs about how society worked. It was only after discussing things with people here, coupled with learning a little about sociology irl, that I realised just how big a gap in class privilege still exists in our society, and how different life often is for people who are part of poor and marginalised minority groups. It takes time to understand: and if you ban people before they have a chance to understand, you cut off a route to their education.

#107

Posted by: defides Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:09 AM

That was hysterical, watching the snake trying to jump into a tree to escape Flopsy...

It reminded me of that Great Masterpiece of Hollywood cinema, The night of the lepus. I was particularly convulsed by the scene in which the Sheriff roars into the drive-in, leaps on top of his pickup, and shouts to the assembled movie-goers: "Run! Run! There's a herd of giant man-eating rabbits converging on the town."

Any normal people would go: "You're blocking the screen!" and "I'll have some of whatever he's been smoking!"

But not these townspeople. They're from small-town America, and they trust their sheriff. So the all drive away, and when the 40' bunnies get there, the only thing left to eat is the screen...

#108

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:20 AM

Walton:

It takes time to understand: and if you ban people before they have a chance to understand, you cut off a route to their education.
This is really about behavior more than anything else. I am happy to disagree with someone, and ever since I started working on my SIWOTI symptoms, I have become much nicer when discussing with people with whom I do not agree. You might have noticed that not once have I so much as denigrated (pun intended) Fortknox on this thread.

The difference between you and these other chuckleheads is that you never behaved badly, tried to support your positions, and when people told you to stop, you did - usually, before the name-calling started. I'm all for teaching people about the realities of life, but I don't have to accept bad behavior to do it. Right now, I am just waiting for Fortknox to reply to me so I know whether there is a genuinely curious human being under all the douchebaggery.

#109

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:24 AM

I was rooting for the snake, but I like snakes.

#110

Posted by: SEF Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:28 AM

Baby recipe: cook slowly under a fiercely glowing fire.

Alternatively, if you don't intend to eat the baby, don't do that this summer with any of yours.

#111

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:29 AM

Right now, I am just waiting for Fortknox to reply to me so I know whether there is a genuinely curious human being under all the douchebaggery.

In Fortknox's case, I doubt there is; he comes over as a racist bigot, who's probably just here to troll and should best be ignored. But itsn80, for instance, seems to have relatively good intentions, and is capable of carrying on a not-completely-stupid conversation. He just doesn't have a clue how society actually works - but that might change one day.

#112

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:38 AM

Fortknox, you are not really needed on this thread as everyone already has an asshole. Thank you for your attention...and into the ignore bin you go.

Have a nice day, I will pray for you.

#113

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:39 AM

He just doesn't have a clue how society actually works - but that might change one day.

Reminds me of someone, can't think of the name....

#114

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:41 AM

've found from personal experience that fostering cats is a great way to end up with way too many cats.

We have this enormous gray tabby named Chowder who absolutely loves kittens. Every one of them we get he cares for and grooms them. When they have to leave the house for any reason, he grows so upset that twice now (for four cats) we haven't had the heart to give them back to the shelter for adoption.

Awwwwwww... *wipes tear from eye*

Cats are awesome. :-)

#115

Posted by: ing St Hawk Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:46 AM

The Father: You silly girl ! Why do you think I gave you a rabbit ?
Eve : I'm sorry Daddy. Would You like an apple ?

#116

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:47 AM

Fortknox, you are not really needed on this thread as everyone already has an asshole.

Nice one !

*giggles*

#117

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:48 AM

I have to say, thanks for everyone fighting the good fight over on the affirmative action/rape thread. I've skimmed it, but I just don't have it in me this week to dive in.

#118

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:52 AM

I have to say, thanks for everyone fighting the good fight over on the affirmative action/rape thread. I've skimmed it, but I just don't have it in me this week to dive in.

I don't blame you. It's pretty awful.

I just went over there, right after I made my comment above about itsn80 - and I saw that he'd posted a crazed misogynistic rant in which he accused Jadehawk of being a "victimologist" and an ivory-tower university type, and blithered on about how oppressed men were. Evidently he's a bit more of a loon than first appeared.

#119

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:40 AM

Weird music videos ? Here's one, top that Rev !

Science Fiction Double Feature

#120

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:54 AM

3 alternative versions(there 's a million out there !!):

Dresden Dolls(who's the singer, I love her !!)

Movie version

Patricia Quinn 1973

#121

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:57 AM

Carlie, with you on the affirmative action/rape thread. I just cannot seem to bring myself to wade nose deep in the sewer. Cowardice, I know, but already fighting out past issues in my mind again. Making progress, but don't think getting involved in that thread will help. Mostly resigned myself to short snipes on the endless thread for a while.

Photographers, kewl. May have questions about lenses in the future and now know who to ask. Bought the spousal unit a Nikon D3000 for her birthday and will now be able to buy lenses and goodies for her for quite some time. Built in wish list sort of thing. It came with, quote "18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G AF-S DX "VR" and 55-200mm f/4-5.6G ED IF AF-S DX "VR" Zoom-Nikkor Lenses". She is a good photography, used to sell some in the past. A good hobby for her when I am gone and it makes lovely pics even when used by me.

#122

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:00 AM

Toothy... badness. The teeth are fictitious, the animal shown with them has a very long toothless beak. But some might like the art, and there's an interesting discussion of paleoart around it.

red lentils are the tastiest of lentils.

See, I do know what's good. :o)

(The ones I had tasted previously were green.)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=are+you+skynet%3F

I'm totally disappointed at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=42 .

I bet if I would do a poll among black atheists who live in black communities about whether it is far more likely that black people are more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people, it would confirm the pattern, of which underlying mechanisms I already hypothesized.

What mechanisms? (I haven't followed almost any threads but this one for some time now.) Religion becoming part of national/tribal identity, as has happened in so many places in Europe (and is now slowly fading away)? Churches being the only available social organizations? Religion being opium for the masses? The vicious circle of poverty and lack of education?

Also, don't bet. Do that poll. Data can never be assumed, reality is always stranger than our imagination of it.

Cambrian creatures did not disappear

Ooh. Thanks!

Also, Jadehawk, I love you. I'm totally a secret fangirl and I love watching you debate the trolls. it doesn't seem appropriate to fawn all over you in the midst of a battle so I'll do it in the open thread while I know you're reading. :P

You better get used to blushing, Jadehawk.

Well, to be fair, I did that last part, but the customers thought it was absolutely fabulous service.

:-D :-D :-D

He just doesn't have a clue how society actually works - but that might change one day.

Reminds me of someone, can't think of the name....

That's fully intentional.

#123

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:04 AM

Rorschach - it's Amanda Palmer, who was one of my favorite artists until she started making fun of disabled people and feminists, which pretty much soured me on her. But she has done some pretty good stuff - "Who Killed Amanda Palmer" is a brilliant record.

#124

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:06 AM

Ah, got another one :

Tim Curry Live--I'm going home 1978

#125

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:09 AM

Oops. I had five links. First link edited to avoid moderation this time.

(And then I got the "too many comments in too little time" message. Grmbl. Why isn't that simply turned off for registered commenters?)

Toothy... badness. The teeth are fictitious, the animal shown with them has a very long toothless beak. But some might like the art, and there's an interesting discussion of paleoart around it.

red lentils are the tastiest of lentils.

See, I do know what's good. :o)

(The ones I had tasted previously were green.)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=are+you+skynet%3F

I'm totally disappointed at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=42 .

I bet if I would do a poll among black atheists who live in black communities about whether it is far more likely that black people are more embarrassingly literal about their superstitions than white people, it would confirm the pattern, of which underlying mechanisms I already hypothesized.

What mechanisms? (I haven't followed almost any threads but this one for some time now.) Religion becoming part of national/tribal identity, as has happened in so many places in Europe (and is now slowly fading away)? Churches being the only available social organizations? Religion being opium for the masses? The vicious circle of poverty and lack of education?

Also, don't bet. Do that poll. Data can never be assumed, reality is always stranger than our imagination of it.

Cambrian creatures did not disappear

Ooh. Thanks!

Also, Jadehawk, I love you. I'm totally a secret fangirl and I love watching you debate the trolls. it doesn't seem appropriate to fawn all over you in the midst of a battle so I'll do it in the open thread while I know you're reading. :P

You better get used to blushing, Jadehawk.

Well, to be fair, I did that last part, but the customers thought it was absolutely fabulous service.

:-D :-D :-D

He just doesn't have a clue how society actually works - but that might change one day.

Reminds me of someone, can't think of the name....

That's fully intentional.

#126

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:09 AM

Amanda Palmer !! Thanks Carlie, can't say I've heard of her...

*googles*

#127

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:13 AM

Moar crazy aggressive bunnies plz.

#128

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:15 AM

Oh my , I'm in awe and lust lol.....

Amanda Palmer

NSFW

#129

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:24 AM

*sigh*

I decided to check the endless thread before work* and geez whiz, FortKnox has shat all over the place.

Question: Do you live in reality FK? I'm talking about the really real real reality that the rest of us share, not the one that's just up in your head.

Anyway, off to work. It's going to be a brutal day-- at least 90o F and muggy. Not a day I want to spend outside. :(

*I think I'm an addict. Someone needs to have an intervention for me or something.

#131

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:30 AM

P.S. Just checked my email and found out that The Girl Who Kicked The Hornet's Nest shipped!

*dance dance dance!*

#132

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:44 AM

Rorschach - she's engaged to Neil Gaiman.

#133

Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:45 AM

@boygenius: You are my hero of the day.

#134

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:58 AM

Rorschach - she's engaged to Neil Gaiman.

Well I wasn't going to propose lol...That was a good find tho, thanks for the tip, will listen to more of her music.

#135

Posted by: ursulamajor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:59 AM

~sigh~

Just received a wedding invite from my niece with this printed on the front.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; Acknowledge Him in all your ways, and He shall direct your paths. ~Proverbs 3:5-6

1) Way to take pride in staying ignorant, christians.
2) WTF does this have to do with getting married? Am I missing something?

#136

Posted by: SteveV Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:15 AM

Miss M was once enslaved by an Irish Terrier (Murphy) who was, we thought, the gentlest creature on the planet. Miss M and Murphy visited a neighbour. Murphy was left in the garden with neighbours children and their pet bunnies. The children came into the house for lemonade and returned to find that Murphy had opened the rabbit pen and killed all 3 bunnies.
Imagine our embarassment.

#137

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:28 AM

Fortknox, I have some books I can recommend about the history of religion in US African American communities. It would do you some good to turn to something with a bit more documentation behind it and also to think beyond the last 20 or 50 years.

It is true that slaves and their descendants as well as people who joined their communities later, faced different sociological pressures which also meant different churches and spiritual traditions.

They are not all the same, however. And a lot has actually changed more recently.

I don't think you've caught on to anything but "black people in the States have some kind of other cultural thing going on" which is a bit like saying "Christians like going into buildings on the weekend" really.

The rest of your conjecture is just kind of sad. I don't think you have a grasp of anything beyond your own lifetime really.

#138

Posted by: boygenius Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:29 AM

Probably not a good idea to leave a dog that was bred to kill vermin unsupervised around... vermin*.


*I would include neighbor children in the vermin category, but Irish Terriers are a bit more discerning than I.

#139

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:35 AM

I bailed early on the parade of assholes thread, I'm sorry.

I'm just not up for it right now either.

Although I got a laugh out of some one's Walton I wouldn't expect you to understand statistics, you're only a law student retort.

Especially when taking vicious liberties with statistics.

#140

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:40 AM

My cat kills those little lizards, the geckos, and it makes me so sad. I keep him inside specifically to reduce the amount of carnage to the surrounding wildlife (not that the surrounding wildlife isn't capable of killing a cat either).

But I still hate that he kills those lizards. I love those things!

I tried to rescue one from him this morning but it was already... critically injured.

Damn.

#141

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:47 AM

Rorschach - I just meant as another interesting tidbit. :D

Much as I'm annoyed with her personally, "Oasis" fucking rocks and "The point of it all" is gut-wrenching.

#142

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:50 AM

How you came to the conclusion that I'm a racist for saying that is beyond my comprehension.

I'm not saying you're racist, but I am saying that personal observation without quantification does not make a study. Drawing conclusions such as you've made from patterns you've noticed is a bit . . . biased.

Then to hypothesize about your observations, and attempt to explain them (without resorting to phrases such as "selection bias" and whatnot) is somewhat absurd. Then to come here and blather on about them, as if they were some sort of scientific study? That's just stupid.

I'm not saying you're racist. I'm just sayin' you seem to have a bias against black people.

#143

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:55 AM

My cat kills those little lizards, the geckos, and it makes me so sad.

My little boykin spaniel (well, he's large for the breed) once killed a rabbit. I was very sad. He was so proud, though, it was hard to begrudge him the carcass.

Of course, I kinda get teared up every time I shoot a deer, too. (Haven't been hunting since I left Alaska, so it's been a few years.)

#144

Posted by: mattheath Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:11 AM

@Rorschach: The original and best version of that pose: http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/174279/PJ+Harvey.jpg

Polly Harvey>>Everyone.

#145

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:15 AM

What kind of geckos?

#146

Posted by: Cerberus Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:17 AM

Carlie @117, Ol' Greg @138

I don't blame either of you for that. Those types of threads always seem to be unavoidable meat for the career anti-feminists and especially right now, it's pretty badly infested.

Staying away probably was the better idea, but as Msr. Randall put it, "Someone is wrong on the internet".

#147

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:21 AM

I really, really need to ban myself from Pharyngula now so as to actually force myself to study. Considering that my exams are next week, that is.

If you see me posting again today, please tell me to fuck off and get back to work.

#148

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:21 AM

WTF does this have to do with getting married?

Lie back and think of the Lord?

I'm not saying you're racist. I'm just sayin' you seem to have a bias against black people.

:-D

#149

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:23 AM

Rorschach wrote:

Amanda Palmer !! Thanks Carlie, can't say I've heard of her...

You've been missing out; she's awesome. I saw her solo gig at the Fringe this year and it was superb - as expected. Apart from being a) stunning and b) stupendously talented she's also really down-to-earth and friendly.

She said that she and Neil Gaiman will spend a couple of months 'down under' next year so she'll be doing some shows - keep an eye out for when they go on sale and get yourself a ticket straight away 'cause they always sell out.

Better yet, go to her website and sign up for the mailing list.

#150

Posted by: Sili, The Unknown Virgin Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:35 AM

My neighbour had a bunny for the first coupla years I lived here. I still recall the first morning (Noon) I looked out the window and saw her big Maine Coon mix chase the rabbit all over the place at breakneck speed. Only to see both of them stop, turn on a platter and then continue with the rabbit after the cat. I thought somebody'd spiked my coffee.

I guess I should pay attention to all this talk lenses. In my continuing journey through my textbooks, I've just finished intro E&M and started modern optics (from 1968 ...). Fun stuff.

Also, I have a job. Or will in a coupla months. Go me.

#151

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:36 AM

Also, I have a job. Or will in a coupla months. Go me.

Yay! Congratulations, Sili. :-)

#152

Posted by: Mandukhai Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:43 AM

Walton, fuck off and get back to work.

#153

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:44 AM

Okay, tonight was the 2nd preview of Tempest, which means tomorrow night is opening night.

My main problem at this point is that I'm having trouble getting to sleep - and, since my body clock won't, apparently, let me sleep past about 8.30am, it means I'm not getting anywhere near enough rest. Here's hoping tonight - it's 11.15pm where I am - is different and I'm at my best for tomorrow night's big show - especially considering it's sold out and it's the one most of the critics are seeing.

#154

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:47 AM

Oh Polly Harvey. The famous person who's better than me at being me :P

I love her.

Amanda Palmer can't come close IMO.

#155

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:53 AM

I have only a Cannon Rebel xti. I bought a macro lens and a good walk around lens by Tamron? Whatever was in my (not so high) price range, under 1k.

I'd like to get another lens soon. I'm pretty happy with the pics I get with it, and I think in a lot of ways it excels at low light which is something I really enjoy shooting in.

I should probably get a newer camera body, but I like mine a lot.

That being said (and I can probably make some people cringe) I actually got into photography because of photo-editing which is what my favorite hobby was for a while.

It doesn't take long before you want control over it all though.

And then I started really enjoying taking pictures.

I'm not a *real* photographer though. I went to school in painting and "new media" which is a code for things that involve post-film technology.

#156

Posted by: ursulamajor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:11 AM

Meh on clowns and santas...

You want scary bunnies?

http://www.sketchybunnies.com/

#157

Posted by: boygenius Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:56 AM

For any pedophilic furries who may be lurking.

#158

Posted by: Sal Bro I Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:03 AM

@ursulamajor #135:

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; Acknowledge Him in all your ways, and He shall direct your paths. ~Proverbs 3:5-6

Printed on a wedding invitation = "I'm really conflicted about getting married, but my church says it's the right thing to do, but I dunno if I want to, but he's such a nice guy!...but I don't know if I want to spend forever with him, but Jesus says I have to marry him now that we've slept together and I'm no longer a virgin and no one else will take me... Help!"

#159

Posted by: CanonicalKoi Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:03 AM

As I write, I look over at our house rabbit lounging on the living room floor. He's currently shooting the stink eye in the general direction of your cat. Growing up, a neighbor had a cat who was a dedicated hunter. One afternoon, he and my Dad were chatting away, cat came around the corner and noticed a wild rabbit dining on dandelions in the driveway. As cat went into crouching/butt-wiggling mode, my Dad warned the guy. Our neighbor laughed it off--"Geez, there's hundreds of 'em. Good thing the cat's around to keep us from getting over-run!". The cat shot out from the corner of the house, he and the bun rolled over and Le Lepin gave the cat a kick in the belly with his hind legs, disemboweling the cat and then strolled off. Exit one cat to the great beyond.

Moral of the story--teach the cat to leave rabbits alone. Rabbits, contrary to popular belief, are not stupid, quicker than you can imagine and evolution has not left them without defenses. My 4.5 lb. Ball o' fluff, if severely pissed, will snort and charge--somewhat the equivalent of a human getting mad and charging Godzilla.

#160

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:05 AM

I wish my cat could catch and kill a bunny, but no, it got beat up by a duckling. A duckling.
Ducks are evil. We had one that would regularly attack my horse. She would literally fly up on the horse's back, quacking, biting, and beating her wings until the horse would run away.

My horse was pretty tough, though. I could never really be sure if she was running away out of fear or just annoyance (she chased dogs.)

#161

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:07 AM

Watching things die always makes me sad. It really doesn't matter what it is.

Maybe I should go vegan :/

*eyes handbag*

Ok maybe I should go vegetarian.

lol

#162

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:08 AM

I wish my cat could catch and kill a bunny

But... bunnies are cuuuuuuuute!

#163

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:14 AM

Walton, damn it man! What are you doing here!? Go away.

*melodramatic sigh, hand slightly sweeping forehead*

Please, for your own good.

*turns, exit right*

#164

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:14 AM

Watching things die always makes me sad.

Me too. As much as I like cats, it isn't pleasant when they kill baby birds or mice. :-(

I don't like watching insects die, either. When an insect gets trapped indoors, I always try and put it outside rather than killing it.

This is also one of the reasons why I've never wanted to go fox-hunting (along with my dislike of dogs). While I'm in favour of others' right to go hunting, I don't see how killing animals could really be considered entertainment. Still, each to their own. :-/

#165

Posted by: ursulamajor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:16 AM

"I'm really conflicted about getting married, but my church says it's the right thing to do, but I dunno if I want to, but he's such a nice guy!...but I don't know if I want to spend forever with him, but Jesus says I have to marry him now that we've slept together and I'm no longer a virgin and no one else will take me... Help!"

Whoa. I think you nailed it. Thanks.

#166

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:18 AM

WALTON! GET SOME FUCKING STUDYING DONE!

Oh, and I dislike killing animals. I like hunting. I just don't like shooting. But sometimes you have to put food on the table.

NOW GET BACK TO STUDYING!

#167

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:30 AM

While I'm in favour of others' right to go hunting, I don't see how killing animals could really be considered entertainment. Still, each to their own. :-/

Would you say the same if there were organized clubs that took cats and dogs out of shelters and dismembered them while they were still alive? Why or why not?

Also, you really should be studying.

#168

Posted by: Flex Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:31 AM

nigelTheBold, at #166, wrote,

I like hunting. I just don't like shooting. But sometimes you have to put food on the table.

I used to have a standing offer to trade pies for venison. I love venison, but I don't enjoy hunting. If I'm going to sit in a tree all evening I'll take a book, not a gun.

But there was a surplus of hunters at my last job, and their wives never made pie. (Not that women don't hunt, and men don't bake, but in this instance, that's how it worked out.) The wives were glad to get some of the deer-meat out of their freezer. The hubbies were happy to get rid of deer meat too, if the freezer was full they wouldn't have an excuse to go out. Their families got pie, usually apple but I would take requests. And I got fresh, sweet, venison. Mmmm.

#169

Posted by: daveau Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:34 AM

This isn't the same cat you humiliated with a lion cut last year*, perchance?

*Or was it 2 years ago, now?

#170

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:38 AM

I don't know but around here if you trapped deer which are legal to hunt and dismembered them while they were alive you'd still face animal cruelty charges.

In fact there was a long spread in Texas Monthly about a group of boys who for some reason decided to trap and bludgeon a doe, the event, the charges against them, and the family afterwards.

*shrugs*

I wouldn't call it entertainment. I know some one who runs a sort of farm/ranch where they raise bucks. For a certain price you get to "hunt" and kill one with x number points etc.

What a joke. The whole point of that was to show that you had managed to hunt a deer that had proved itself hard to hunt. Without that criteria it's no more interesting (to me) than pulling a cord and killing a cow in a slaughterhouse.

#171

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:39 AM

Would you say the same if there were organized clubs that took cats and dogs out of shelters and dismembered them while they were still alive?

Er... to which part of my statement were you responding? No, I wouldn't consider that to be "entertainment" either, and wouldn't want to do it, just as I don't want to go fox-hunting. I don't find gratuitous cruelty to animals to be "fun" in any sense. :-/

And yes, I should be studying. Constructive and resulting trusts... yaaaay.

#172

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:43 AM

My 4.5 lb. Ball o' fluff, if severely pissed, will snort and charge--somewhat the equivalent of a human getting mad and charging Godzilla.
The Redhead let the bunny out of the cage, but had just waxed the kitchen floor. The bunny skidded on the fresh wax and ran into the fridge. Pick itself up, shook its head, and deliberately rammed the fridge. Didn't fare any better the second time, and decided electrical cords were more interesting.
#173

Posted by: Lynna, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:45 AM

So, Rex Rammell was on local TV again last night, still campaigning to be Governor of Idaho, with a little side note that he is fulfilling his "sacred duty" -- "sacred duty" being a dog whistle signal to mormons about the Priesthood running things properly and saving our bacon.

[from an interview given in April, 2010] I will rally the people of Idaho. We will resist. ... The federal government will not take over the state of Idaho. Now, how far will we have to go? I don't know. But we'll go as far as we have to. If the federal government came in here with force, I would order Idaho to resist with force.

I have a hard time taking this stuff seriously. But my mormon friends take it and run with it. I got another "This is where Obama is taking us" viral email today.

Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are stoking the anti-socialist and anti-commie fires. Yes, you may think the anti-commie bit is old hat, but it has been revived. Beck is even quoting dead mormon prophet, Ezra Taft Benson to make his anti-commie point. Beck first came out with the Benson quote in 2008, and has since then tied Benson, Cleon Skousen, our imminent socialist dangers, and the Tea Party together in his inimitable way (that is, illogically and wildly). For a taste of conspiracy, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTDmGt1Pafw

The Texas Board Bored of Education removing Thomas Jefferson and inserting Joe McCarthy fits into the picture. As does the attempt to change "Atlantic Slave Trade" to "Atlantic Triangle Trade" in social studies texts.

Cleon Skousen's "The 5,000 Year Leap" shows up again in the politics of the people who backed the anti-immigration law in Arizona. Glenn Beck loves Skousen, worships Skousen, as do the students of two mormon-run "universities" in Utah and Nevada. (See George Wythe University, and the new LDS-based University in Logandale, NV, where Skousen's books are required reading.)

In short, the old commie/godless takeover scare has been renovated and reactivated. Ezra Taft Benson's grandson, Steve Benson, recently posted an amusing (in a black comedy way) summary of the anti-commie/Skousen/mormon/Bircher plan to save the USA. This plan of salvation included warnings about the "One World" conspiracy. (Yes, fear of the One World conspiracy was rampant in 1977. What the fuck does it take to kill these dessicated bogeymen?) The rally cry of "Freedom!" and "Free Men" play a big role, with plans to double and triple the number of Freemen every year.

This plan of Skousen's and ETB's was rabidly anti-rock and roll. John Lennon was singled out, as was "Jesus Christ, Superstar."

"However, the professional debunkers who were behind the engineering of this song took colossal satisfaction from the fact that they are succeeding in getting tens of millions of young Americans to mouth the artfully planted brain teasers of 'no heaven,' 'no hell,' 'above us only sky,' 'no countries,' 'nothing to kill or die for,' 'no religion,' 'no possessions,' and 'all the world as one.'
I have to think they failed in this aspect of their campaign -- we now have Christian rock-and-roll, for dog's sake. But wait, that "music" is Satanic if ever anything was.

Steve Benson provides this:

For the full text of Ezra Taft Benson's own full-throated assault on rock music, see his sermon "Satan's Thrust--Youth," in the December 1971 "Ensign," p. 53ff, as well as at the following link: LINK

#174

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:46 AM

GOODBYE WALTON!

Think about how awesome it will be when everybody around you is like *yay we're so glad you didn't let the internet get between you and your study of trusts* and then fuck off.

#175

Posted by: Darrell E Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:52 AM

That is a badass bunny. Reminds me of a documentary I saw years ago about snake venom. There was a brief side story about a magnificent guinea pig.

There is a lab shown in the documentary that maintains dozens of various kinds of large venomous snakes, and feeds many of them guinea pigs. So one day they drop this particular guinea pig into a tank with this large hungary venomous snake. The snake backs the poor thing into a corner where it crouches, shivering in terror. Then, suddenly, it leaps a mighty leap straight up, rotates 180 degrees and lands on the snake just behind its head .... and then proceeds to viciously gnaw into the base of the snakes skull until it is dead. Yup, they showed film of it. How cool is that?

The scientists were amazed of course, but did that stop them from feeding that brave little guinea pig to another snake? Nope. But, that magnificently badass little bastard did the same thing to the next snake too. After that the scientists decided to retire that particular guinea pig to his own private tank, with much respect.

#176

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:53 AM

The hubbies were happy to get rid of deer meat too, if the freezer was full they wouldn't have an excuse to go out.

Growing up, we used to fill the freezer in the fall with venison, halibut, and salmon. That was our meat supply for the winter.

I disliked shooting deer. Strangely, it got better after a friend told me about a Tlingit ritual: they would give the deer water (yeah, after it was dead), and thank it for giving its life to feed the clan.

It's entirely stupid, but it made me feel better when I did that. That's about the only time I've understood a vaguely-religious ritual.

#177

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:54 AM

I had a cats and a rabbit. The cats never tried hurting the bunny. Mercifully the bunny never killed my cat either!

I never cared as much for the rabbit as I did for the cat which was my main companion as a child. The rabbit made me nervous and it crapped everywhere, I never trusted it not to bite me and it never trusted me, period. It never did bite me though.

As it was my cat mistook it for a kitten when we got it and took to carrying it around everywhere and bathing it.

In return as the rabbit quickly equaled her in size he took to trying very hard to mate with her.

#178

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:00 PM

Er... to which part of my statement were you responding?

"I'm in favor of other's rights to [mutilate cute cuddly cats and dogs just to hear them scream]...To each their own"

#179

Posted by: Paul Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:07 PM

I don't know but around here if you trapped deer which are legal to hunt and dismembered them while they were alive you'd still face animal cruelty charges.

I figured that would be the case (I have no hunting experience nor exposure to hunters, myself). So a logical followup (which I planned, although couldn't use because Walton didn't seem to understand what I was getting at) would be whether chasing down foxes so that your dogs can tear them apart is closer to dismembering kittens or killing deer by arrow/gunshot.

#180

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:11 PM

Walton:

If you see me posting again today, please tell me to fuck off and get back to work.
Just like old times!

Now, fuck off and get back to studying, Walton!

#181

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:25 PM

Patricia Quinn 1973

I kissed her on the cheek! She accompanied Richard O'Brien to a gig he was doing, when I was in college about a decade ago. She started dancing with everyone, and I took the opportunity to ask if she would offer her cheek.

I should have so bargained it upwards...

#182

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:29 PM

When it comes to animals, my morality may be somewhat odd: I'm okay with animals dying (even if I'm too emotional to handle doing it myself), but I never want to see an innocent animal suffer.

I have no problem with eating meat or wearing leather. I've eaten venison and rabbit without a problem. (I don't think I'd willingly eat cat or dog meat, simply due to the cannibalism taboo.) But when the animal dies for our benefit, we owe it to them to make the process swift and painless. The few hunters I know will never abandon an injured deer until they've tracked it down and ended its suffering, and for that, I respect them. On a related note, they also tend to use as much of the carcass as they can. Venison, fur/leather, et cetera...

That's also why I hold Temple Grandin in such high esteem. She's done amazing things to make the slaughtering process easier and less painful for the animals.

#183

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:50 PM

Our community is comprised of inholdings within a national park (privately owned land easemented to the park service), and we have approximately 10 times the number of deer per square mile than ecologists say is appropriate in a balanced ecosystem. The deer population decimates native wildflowers and understory trees, and a group of landowners got together to organize an annual two-day community hunt a couple years ago. We work with safety-certified hunters and biologists to observe deer activity and site tree stands in advance and we collect data on the deer killed in the hunt when the deer are gutted. Entrails go to a composting facility at our local organic farm, meat goes to hunters, landowners, and a local food pantry. I always take the hearts from the first day's kill and make an awesome braised heart stew for the second day hunters (Joy of Cooking recipe for braised beef hearts). A bunch of the hunters had never eaten heart and were astonished that they'd been tossing out such delicious yumminess all these years.

It's also been a great biology lesson for me and DaughterSpawn, and she can now field dress a deer (or unicorn or moose, should the occasion arise) just fine and label internal organs quite accurately.

Next year I'm toying with making genuine venison haggis, complete with lungs, which are illegal to sell in the US. Even if I don't do the venison haggis thing, I'm going to make it next time I butcher a sheep for sure. Having inspected recipes, I suspect that the only reasons haggis ends up being disgusting are (a) it's being eaten by people who don't like liver, and/or (b) it's been prepared by people who don't actually know how to cook. We're also toying with learning how to tan hides.

#184

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:53 PM

I don't like watching insects die, either. When an insect gets trapped indoors, I always try and put it outside rather than killing it.

Me either. EXCEPT FOR THE FRIGGIN MOSQUITOS! Mosquitos are evil and all need to die. Now. Not tomorrow, now. And all. On the list of species that need to go extinct they're right up there with ebola and malarial parasites.

If Walton shows up again today let's all start discussing legal theory. He'll either get disgusted with our ignorance and start looking things up to correct us or just get disgusted and go back to studying.

#185

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmRjbXoDgCq4N0aNWT2Z2RtB4Mm9CbDVys Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 12:56 PM

Kitty couldn't help it. It was evolution. Evolution makes everyone evil.

We had a pet duck. Our cats respected her. One kitty was her best friend and would follow her around the yard in the rain dabbling in the mud.

One of our cats is on Amitriptyline (sp?). She sees things that aren't there (in place of us!) and then attacks them. She's fine when she's on her meds.....

#186

Posted by: Sili, The Unknown Virgin Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:04 PM

I'm okay with animals dying (even if I'm too emotional to handle doing it myself)
I actually feel bad for not being more involved in the killing. It seems a bit hypocritical. I was never there for the cows - they were shot and cut up professionally anyway, but I do vaguely recall helping my nan decapitate at least one chicken.

I guess I should ask my sister for an invitation the next time they have a slaughter. Though she apparently doesn't have geese this year.

#188

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:05 PM

Happy Monday.

I once watched one of our cats get beaten up by two bunny rabbits. Kipling (the old orange-and-white cat) was innocently walking down the garden path when a bunny jumped on his side, wrapped its arms around his neck, and proceeded to kick the shit out of him. As he twisted and turned to get the bunny into fang range, a second bunny ran up, bit his tail, and ran away. Kipling pulled away from the vicious bunny and ran like hell for the front door. Which was not open. And it made a nice 'thud' sound as he hit the window on the storm door.

This is also the cat that once came home with a mouthful of deer hair -- he spit it out on the kitchen floor and looked up at Dad and I with 'those bunnies are too damn big' look on his face.

(All my cats are thoroughly indoor cats -- if we leave the back door open, they sit in the doorway and if any wildlife (squirrel, butterfly) wander by, they run for the basement.)

-- Ogvorbis

#189

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:22 PM

Regarding organ meat:

My husband is a pathologist and he made it very clear, early on in our marriage, that he would not under any circumstances eat anything that reminded him of work.

Similarly, just before we moved back from Italy, we went on a wine tasting tour on the island of Ischia. The winery served us a lovely al fresco lunch in the midst of the vineyard. That was where we discovered that, for that particular rabbit dish, the chef had merely skinned them and cut them up. Apparently, any actual gutting was kept to a minimum. Lunch ended when someone fished a whole skull out of the pot.

Bleh.

#190

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:24 PM

Lunch ended when someone fished a whole skull out of the pot.

I think you'll want to stay away from the moosehead stew. It's not made with beer.

#191

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:34 PM

Katrina:

Lunch ended when someone fished a whole skull out of the pot.
That's one big reason I won't eat fish head soup. It may taste wonderful, but my eyes just aren't eating it.

That, and watching people suck crawfish heads. Bleh!

#192

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:38 PM

Yeah, and some of the internal organs were still attached to other pieces.

#193

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:40 PM

Mattir: I always take the hearts from the first day's kill and make an awesome braised heart stew for the second day hunters (Joy of Cooking recipe for braised beef hearts).

Anticuchos! Bet you could find a recipe in a reasonably comprehensive South American cookbook. Or, of course, on the Webnets somewhere.

#194

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:51 PM

I have never been able to stomach organ meats (or wine, for that matter). Both distastes come from the summer I was ten years old.

A good friend lived on a ranch (not a big one, only about 40,000 acres) and a couple of us were out there for weekend. His mom made breakfast -- eggs, toast, home fries, bacon, mountain oysters, sausage, scrapple, coffee, juice and milk. I damn near threw up before I found out what mounain oysters were. Once they told me it was even worse.

The distaste for wine comes from a bottle of Welches grape juice which had been in the fridge too long.

I have never been able to drink wine or eat organ meat since then. I just cannot get past the remembered taste, never mind what the real taste is.

I do, however, still eat scrapple and pork roll. I am also a big fan of bladder sausage but haven't been able to find a local butcher who makes it. C'est la vie.

-- Ogvorbis

#195

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:55 PM

Sili:

Also, I have a job. Or will in a coupla months. Go me.

Congrats, Sili!

Wowbagger:

Here's hoping tonight - it's 11.15pm where I am - is different and I'm at my best for tomorrow night's big show - especially considering it's sold out and it's the one most of the critics are seeing.

Good luck, Wowbagger!

Walton, get the fuck off the internet and study.

#196

Posted by: Endor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:55 PM

It is awesome that there are other house rabbit owners here! I have one currently who is nearly 7 and is one grumpy old bastard. He apparently believes me to be his personal property because whenever Mr. End gets near me, the stomping and rattling the cage door begins. Of, if he's out of the cage, he runs over and nips at Mr. End's socks.

In a human male that behavior would be appalling and possibly criminal. In 3.5 lb mini rex, it's freaking ADORABLE.

I'm also with the rescue the insects people, but only because every time someone moves to kill one, I think of Agrajag.

#197

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 1:57 PM

(((Ogvorbis)))-

I have never been able to drink wine or eat organ meat since then. I just cannot get past the remembered taste, never mind what the real taste is.
I have similar feelings for beer after years of cleaning out the bottoms of moldy grain bins. Somehow, the smell of beer takes me right back to where I'd rather not go.

#198

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:03 PM

Katrina:

Weird. I love the smell of fermenting/fermented grain -- beer, bread, corn cribs, goat feed. Plus, I knew a kid in high school whose dad ran his own private and unliscensed distillery. The smell of mash (sometimes he used wheat, sometimes corn, and, once, rye (depended on what he could get cheap)), that wonderful musty, yeasty sour smell, is one I remember fondly from my childhood.

--Ogvorbis

#199

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:05 PM

iambilly:

I like the smell of beer. Taste, however, is a no go; I never did like the taste of hops. (Tastes kinda like cilantro, which I also don't like.)

#200

Posted by: Shala Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:07 PM

The Redhead let the bunny out of the cage, but had just waxed the kitchen floor. The bunny skidded on the fresh wax and ran into the fridge. Pick itself up, shook its head, and deliberately rammed the fridge. Didn't fare any better the second time, and decided electrical cords were more interesting.

I believe conclusive physical evidence in the form of peer-reviewed cute pictures of adorable bunnies is necessary in this scenario.

#201

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:14 PM

Benjamin:

I think that, like, 2% of the world's population* dislike the taste of cilantro, but on the Endless Thread, it is something like half. Is it linked to intelligence? Rationality? Acceptence of reality? Sounds like an undergrad research project.

------------

In college, future(((Wife)))'s friend had a bunny -- name HunnyBunny. When they came back from winter break, no bunny. Future(((Wife))) asked about HunnyBunny and was told, "HunnyBunny hit the table. Why else would anyone raise a rabbit?"

#202

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:22 PM

* That is what most call a 'brown' statistic. As in I pulled it out of my . . .

(belongs with post #201)

#203

Posted by: badgersdaughter Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:26 PM

I suspect that the only reasons haggis ends up being disgusting

haggis : boudin :: oats : rice

I like both.

If you see me posting again today, please tell me to fuck off and get back to work.

I'm not going to do anything of the sort. I'm going to tell you to go do whatever makes you happy. If it makes you happy to fail your exams, you know what to do.

/Jewish_mother

#204

Posted by: Mandukhai Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:27 PM

Not liking cilantro is partly linked simply to unfamiliarity: NYT cilantro

I read once that cilantro is the most used herb on the planet, thanks to the heavy amounts used in both Chinese and Indian cuisines. It seems that Endless Thread posters do a lot of cooking, but perhaps from a cultural background without a lot of early exposure to cilantro (which would be true in English speaking countries especially).

I grew up without any exposure at all to Asian or Latin American foods, and the first time I tried cilantro (at age 18) I spit it out. I avoided it for years, but the more I got into cooking and eating Asian food, the more of it I inadvertently ate. Now I love it and use it all the time, and 80% of my cooking is Asian influenced.

#205

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:29 PM

why am I still slogging through the "you can tell where this is going..." thread? at 440 posts, I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else, and there's just a great deal of talking at cross-purposes. (Maybe because I have to give a presentation on the feminist art movement, and I *know* I'm going to be dealing with a lot of these same issues. and the sense that, because it's this way now, this is the way it's always been... people just can't see the fights of their predecessors.)

Jadehawk, others, you're saints to be putting up with so much nonsense.

#206

Posted by: Feynmaniac, Chimerical Toad Superhero Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:34 PM

Argh, mildly disappointed with series finale of Lost.

#207

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:41 PM

Mandukhai:

I've been eating a fair bit of cilantro for some time, both in salsa and in the rice at Chipotle. The salsa generally isn't that bad (unless they overload it), but the rice... hoo boy. I'm tempted to ask if they have cilantro-free rice available next time I go. (Chipotle has an explicit 'Five Easy Pieces policy': If you want it, and they have the ingredients for it, they'll make it... but the question is whether they have any rice left that hasn't been mixed with cilantro.)

#208

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:42 PM

I think that, like, 2% of the world's population* dislike the taste of cilantro, but on the Endless Thread, it is something like half. Is it linked to intelligence?

For your 'brown' control dataset: I love the taste of cilantro, and I am a proven shit-for-brains.

#209

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:44 PM

Aaaagh. Just got another reminder notice and a flier for the joint wedding shower that's happening next week. And just when today was going so well.

I'm seriously tempted to give the couples cards that say something along the lines of, "50% of marriages end in divorce. Here's hoping you're not among them." That'd be cruel, but at this point, I don't really give two shits.

#210

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:48 PM

iambilly:

I think that, like, 2% of the world's population* dislike the taste of cilantro, but on the Endless Thread, it is something like half. Is it linked to intelligence?
I hate cilantro, but not because of its flavor. It's just too damned strong for me. That's saying something, because this particular cook has been known to use nearly a whole head of garlic for a dish and to obliterate spaghetti sauces with oregano without noticing. (I got better, really!)

Whenever I see a recipe that calls for cilantro, I substitute about half of it or more with its culinary cousin, parsley. It works wonders, for you cilantrophobes out there. If you want a bit more of the original flavor, substitute the parsley and add a little bit of coriander.

#212

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:48 PM

Next year I'm toying with making genuine venison haggis, complete with lungs, which are illegal to sell in the US

That's strange about the lungs isn't it? Lungs are pretty good really.

#213

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:51 PM

Having tolerated goats and sheep in person, I've decided that house rabbits and silkworms are the only fiber animals for me. I have an elderly (~10) shorthaired female and a lionhead male who's about 3, both neutered. When elder bun dies, I'll replace her with an angora, but right now I'm practicing on the lionhead's angora patches. I use a shredded newspaper cat litter for their box, and it makes plants practically explode when they're mulched with it. Peonies especially seem to love it.

Haven't worked on silkworms yet - that'll probably wait for next summer. I do have cocoons for my summer camp to fool with, and need to explore Korean grocery stores to find the crunchy snacks made from the silkworm pupae for the kids to munch.

#214

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:54 PM

Mattir:

My brother and I had two rabbits when we were about 6 and 9 years old, respectively. We kept them in a raised hutch, so no litter was needed; the droppings just fell to the ground and got raked out.

We fertilized our (relatively small) strawberry patch with the droppings. When harvest time came, we got 3-4 gallons of strawberries per DAY, for weeks. We were sick of strawberries; we couldn't give 'em away.

So yes, rabbit droppings make good fertilizer.

#215

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 2:54 PM

If Walton shows up again today let's all start discussing legal theory. He'll either get disgusted with our ignorance and start looking things up to correct us or just get disgusted and go back to studying.

I like it. And hell, I used to do some work building a database for a bunch of corporate trust documentation at a big bank. OK so it's not specifically what he's studying, but I should still remember enough to embarrass myself and make him really frustrated :P

#216

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:01 PM

I love cilantro. Yum yum yum.

My mom hates it and insists on leaving it out of dishes, many of which are simply naked to me without it.

I will usually put some on a plate so that those of us who miss it can put it in our dish.

#217

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:08 PM

Not liking cilantro is partly linked simply to unfamiliarity:

Not in my case. I might as well chew on a bar of Ivory soap, which is what it tastes like to me and that isn't what it is supposed to taste like.

#218

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:09 PM

Ol'Greg:

I can't stand the mouthfeel of onions. I like onion powder, I like Funyuns, and I like BK onion rings, but if I bite into a piece of onion, I gag.

My parents both love 'em.

Mom finally got to the point where she'd include onions in her cooking, but leave the pieces large enough to be removed by hand easily. She uses your approach when serving salad: things that someone dislikes are served separately, and we're free to add our own.

Now I've got a craving for homemade tacos. (She serves those completely separately: the ingredients come out, and you assemble your own.)

#219

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:15 PM

Cilantro good

As for that rabbit (having watched the vid), I doubt its behavior is heroic or laudable in any way. Like all bunny rabbits, it's quite stoopid. A different kind of snake would have popped it once and killed it, and this particular nonvenomous ratsnake or racer is minding its own business, but the rabbit, far from giving the snake the berth its suborder suggests might be wise, apparently thinks it's a damn carrot or something. Parsnip. A colubrid like that is smart to head for the trees when harassed by a confused fuzzball w/ incisors...those sharp...sharp!...teeth!!...

#220

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:18 PM

Actually I do taste the soapy quality in cilantro, but for some reason it just doesn't bother me. I don't think it's a matter of acquired taste though.

Kombucha, now that's acquired taste.

I liked cilantro the first time I tried it although it had a bitter saponic note for a while.

My mom has eaten it obligingly many times and we're no strangers to Latin or Asian foods. Hell the woman lived in Korea for years.

Yet she continues to taste only the soap and say it ruins everything. My father too. How the hell did I end up liking it? lol

Wonders of genetics I guess.

#221

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:19 PM

Benjamin Geiger:

I can't stand the mouthfeel of onions. I like onion powder, I like Funyuns, and I like BK onion rings, but if I bite into a piece of onion, I gag.
If you like the flavor, but not the texture, sweat the onions over medium heat with some salt until they turn semi-translucent and limp. When you incorporate them into a dish, you won't even know they are there. I do this all the time with my sister, who has the same aversion you do, and I had to teach it to her so she could do it for herself.

#222

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:22 PM

My husband doesn't get the soap taste at all; he loves the nasty stuff. I won't cook with it, I will put it on the side for those who like it.

#223

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:27 PM

Reading that supertaster thing makes me wonder though.

I don't like fatty foods, lots of sugars, coffee (I've learned to drink it though), or any broccoli and the like (also learned to force it on myself).

I don't mind tea and red wine, although they are often quite bitter. Usually I enjoy red wine despite it, and I like aged fermented teas better than green.

To eat grapefruit I use those pills that change the way things taste. Grapefruit still tastes bitter even with that. But I force it on myself too.

I mean I hate some of it. I remember when i was little having to repeatedly swallow a little vomit because putting broccoli in my mouth was that vile.

But it's not the bitterness so maybe not.

I think it's the smell of broccoli that bothers me.

Broccoli tastes to me, unless it is just *perfectly* fresh and highly salted, like the smell of raw sewage.

To eat it now I still hold my breath and swallow it practically whole, and then gulp something else down. Preferably something spicy.

#224

Posted by: Endor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:29 PM

#206 - totally. After six years, it's "everyone goes to heaven!". Snore.

#214 - A totally serious question - how healthy were those rabbits? How long did they live? In such a cage, they would not have had access to cecotropes, which, as the vet has always told me, is essential. I'm curious how they fare with no access to them.

#225

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:33 PM

I like broccoli, but I didn't eat it until I was in my late 20s. It has to be fresh, and I prefer it lightly steamed. Grapefruit? Forget it. I tasted it once and immediately spit it out. Yecch.

#226

Posted by: Endor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:34 PM

#219 - Say what you will, my rabbit is an evil genuis. I've watched him on many occasions outsmart people trying to catch him AND watched him open his locked cage and escape.

Of course, one could make the argument that he's not really smart, it's just that we're really dumb. Always a possibility.

#227

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:34 PM

Ogvorbis: I love the smell of yeast, so that's not the problem. There's something else in the smell. Maybe it's the hops, but to me it smells of mold.

#228

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:37 PM

#206 & 224:

What is lost? Am I missing something? Or are you missing something?

#229

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:37 PM

Ol'Greg:

I'm the exact opposite, methinks. I'm probably a nontaster. I've always liked strong foods (as a child, I loved anything with cinnamon, and I use vinegary hot sauce by the gallon).

I can't stand grapefruit either.

Endor:

Not all of the droppings fell through, and the entire floor wasn't mesh. Still, it wasn't healthy for them, but I didn't know that at the time (and apparently neither did my parents).

#230

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:40 PM

Katrina: I hate both the smell and taste of beer with or without hops.

And I love yeast.

Beer has something horrible and fetid about it. The taste is just the worst to me.

So weird because I can drink straight vodka, whiskey, rum, etc. No problem with gin. Red wine and dry whites are ok (don't like most sweet ones though).

But when you dislike beer everyone wants to buy you one, or get you to try this shot with beer or whatever.

And I drink it all. Because I'm polite like that.

But really I'm thinking FUCK THAT'S HORRID!

#231

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:41 PM

Caine:

I like broccoli, but I didn't eat it until I was in my late 20s. It has to be fresh, and I prefer it lightly steamed. Grapefruit? Forget it. I tasted it once and immediately spit it out. Yecch.
Most people waaaay overcook broccoli, which is why it tends to be very bitter and smell of sewage. It only takes a few minutes to cook broccoli.

BUT, anyone who happens to be one of those "supertasters" for whom broccoli almost always tastes bad if it is cooked (me!), you're better off broiling or grilling it to create a nice char. It completely counteracts the bitterness and off flavors.

#232

Posted by: Endor Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:42 PM

"but I didn't know that at the time (and apparently neither did my parents)."

I learned the hard way myself. They are not easy pets by any means.

#233

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:47 PM

ol'Greg:

Beer has something horrible and fetid about it.

Ah. I see you have had Red, White and Blue beer. Or National Bohemian. Or (and this was my Dad's el cheapo beer) Narragansett.

#234

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:48 PM

Ol'Greg: "Fetid"

Re: broccoli. I prefer to cut it small enough that it can be easily sauteed. With garlic.

#235

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:49 PM

I like cinnamon but I'm more fond of saffron.

vinegary hot sauce by the gallon

Like Tabasco? I hate that stuff. Vinegar can be ok though actually. I used to love it on fish. That thick aged kind is good.

There's some other taste in tabasco that I have trouble putting into words.

Somehow I think if I chopped up a hot chili and sprinkled vinegar on it that the resulting product would lack that flavor so maybe it's a part of the manufacturing process?

You mentioned funions and I CAN NOT eat those things. They taste horrible. I remember the first time I tried them. I was in middle school and didn't want to look weird in front of other kids so I forced myself to eat the bag I'd bought. Ugh.... never again.

Pork rinds too. Oh man, my dad used to love those things.

But I like that dried hot pepper in oil stuff that you add to Asian food though. I'm pretty sure it really is just dried hot chilies in oil.

#236

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 3:55 PM

Tabasco is too spicy for me to use in the quantities I like. I prefer the el-cheapo "Louisiana style" hot sauce (not Louisiana brand).

I just love vinegar. It's particularly good on barbecue; the vinegar-based sauce at the local barbecue place is excellent. Oh, and I'm a huge fan of sauerbraten. (Stinks like hell when you're cooking it, but it tastes so damn good...)

#237

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:04 PM

Argh, stupid some-time html!

Ol'Greg: "Fetid"

That should be: "Fetid" That's it, exactly. And I agree with you on the other drinks, as well. We could be drinking buddies!

#238

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:11 PM

Those of you who dislike vinegar based hot sauces, try Melindas -- comes in hot, XX and XXX hot and is made with carrots and garlic. For a good not-too-hot vinegar based sauce, try Cholula hot sauce from Mexico.

The only hot sauces I'm not wild about are those made with smoked chilis. Unfortunately, a few years ago, America discovered smoked Jalapeno peppers and now the damned chipotle is everywhere and it gets overused to the point of (for me) nausea. It is such a strong flavour that just a little bit goes a long way. I guess I'm just old fasioned -- the sauce/spices should complement the flavour, not be the flavour.

--Ogvorbis

#239

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:12 PM

Brief interjection (I am working, honestly... secret trusts in wills, formalities for creation of a trust, section 53(1)(b) of the Law of Property Act 1925...)

I hate every kind of beer I've ever tried. In my late teens I forced myself to drink beer in order to fit in with social convention, but I've always found the stuff revolting.

I prefer gin and tonic, or a good-quality red wine. But, of course, I haven't had any alcohol since early March, thanks to finals revision. Leaving me with caffeine and Pharyngula as my only addictive recreational habits for the last couple of months. :-)

#240

Posted by: Feynmaniac, Chimerical Toad Superhero Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:18 PM

Quick legal question for Walton before he gets back to his studies: is there a legal case with a more awesome title than Hustler Magazine v. Falwell?

#241

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:20 PM

I hate every kind of beer I've ever tried. In my late teens I forced myself to drink beer in order to fit in with social convention, but I've always found the stuff revolting.

Thank you for saying that while being in England.

I've honestly had beer in Europe before, many times over now.

I'm just not into it. I drink it because I would consider it impolite not to, or not to stick out too much.

I have had alcohol though as of late. In fact I have two bottles of wine sitting on my desk. But only because I picked them up on my lunch break and it is already too hot to leave things like that in the car.

The steering wheel burned my hand a bit when I got out.

Oh and Walton, do you hear that sound? It's like some one is saying:

*Oh we're so glad you're one of us now! The people who don't let the internet distract them from the study of trust law are really the best kind of people!!!! And you're one of us now... we're so happy*

Perhaps you should investigate. Or else maybe you could explain to me how I can secure that my fortune passes properly to my grandson. My fortune... which is mostly a collection of table linens.

#242

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:22 PM

Feynmaniac:

I seriously doubt there is. Neither is there a more awesome case with awesome precedent.

Walton:

Fuck off and get back to work. (Hey, you literally asked for it.)

#243

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:33 PM

To those who love really, really hot stuff, you might like one called "Smack My Ass And Call Me Sally!"

No, really. There is one with that name, and I have seen the bottle.

#244

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:45 PM

deriamis:

Yeah, it's sold at Tijuana Flats. I'm not all that impressed with it, actually. Tapatio and Cholula are both better sauces.

Oh, and I forgot to mention Sriracha. It's one of the few hot sauces my dad likes, because it contains almost no vinegar.

#245

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:48 PM

My brother in law gave me one called Endorphin Rush -- supposedly hotter than a Habanero. It was all heat but no taste so I tossed it. Damnit, I want taste with my heat!

#246

Posted by: badgersdaughter Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:52 PM

Hate cilantro and beer, love Sriracha, have to tear myself away from grapefruit. Before I found out I was diabetic, I could easily knock back a quart and a half of grapefruit juice or eat four grapefruits in one day. Of course this is Texas where the "eating" grapefruits are grown... Rio Reds. :)

#247

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:54 PM

Benjamin Geiger:

Yeah, it's sold at Tijuana Flats. I'm not all that impressed with it, actually. Tapatio and Cholula are both better sauces.
Oh, I've never had it. I won't, either, because I am an absolute baby when it comes to hot stuff. I can just about manage to spice up some enchiladas, but that is about it.

You might be interested in HomeGrownUKChili's reviews of various hot sauces that he does for a UK hot sauce emporium, though. I have found a couple I might like to try. I much prefer flavor over heat.

#248

Posted by: CanonicalKoi Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:12 PM

Sorry, Ol' Greg, I'll take a bunny any day. The bun doesn't give my husband allergic migraines (as cats do), is very well litterbox trained, doesn't spray urine a la the feline, comes over to get his morning and evening pet rituals in, jumps up on the couch to see what I'm up to and never, ever does the kitty "I think I'll see if I can get my tail in your mouth or maybe I'll just stick my butt in your face" thing. Like a cat, he has his standoffish times and, if angered at you, can either ignore you more thoroughly than a cat or fix you with a stink eye of truly laser-like intensity.

Oh! And Timothy hay smells a billion times better than fish by-product cat food! ;)

#249

Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:13 PM


If Walton shows up again today let's all start discussing legal theory. He'll either get disgusted with our ignorance and start looking things up to correct us or just get disgusted and go back to studying

Part of the reason I spend time here is to FORGET work. Last thing I want to hear is someone crapping on about law. When you're a law student you think the whole world will be impressed by your knowledge, a soon as you graduate you realise most of the world is actually bored by it and you should just shut up a bit.

Sorry Walton, but I'm sick of hearing about it all. Even my law clerks don't go on half as much as you do.

#250

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:22 PM

Part of the reason I spend time here is to FORGET work. Last thing I want to hear is someone crapping on about law.

I apologise. I was primarily getting irritated with myself for wasting time when my exams are next week, but I'm aware that my constant complaining probably irritates some people. (I just don't have anywhere else to vent at the moment - but I recognise that this is no excuse for annoying everyone.) I can assure you that after my exams are over, I won't be talking about law at all here for quite a while.

I've actually become addicted to posting here, as Pharyngula has been pretty much my only recreational outlet for the past two months. I need to find some way to deal with this compulsive commenting.

#251

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:23 PM

Well, if you don't want to talk about Walton's studies, we can always talk about how pathetic I am...

(PS: Walton, fuck off and get back to work. ;-)

#252

Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:24 PM

I make several moderately bad-assed habanero based sauces--mainly because the habanero has the best balance of heat and flavor I have found. Slightly less hot, but also quite flavorful are the Peruvian aji peppers (particularly aji amarillo) and rocoto peppers.

#253

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:29 PM

I've actually become addicted to posting here, as Pharyngula has been pretty much my only recreational outlet for the past two months. I need to find some way to deal with this compulsive commenting.

It'll balance out once your life gets back into its normal rhythm. I'm telling myself that too.

We'll miss you though! Or... I will a little. Some may not :D lol

Oh and SILI!!! I just was re-reading a bit. Congrats on the job! I hope you like it too.

#254

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:34 PM

It'll balance out once your life gets back into its normal rhythm.

I hope so. After my exams are over, I have another week in Oxford and expect to spend much of it drunk and in black-tie, so probably won't be posting quite so often. :-)

#255

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:39 PM

We'll miss you though!

Thanks. I'm very flattered. :-)

#256

Posted by: Sili, The Unknown Virgin Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:39 PM

How utterly ridiculous to get drunk in black tie. Much more sensible to go in a cheap suit.

Thanks for all the well wishes. I'll be teaching high school level, but at an institution geared more towards engineering, I guess you'd call it. They're 'promising' me three classes, first and second years maths and first year chemistry. I think it was. 30 hours a week for a start, and they'll pay the fees for the didactic courses I'm lacking. Need to contact the union representative who're gonna negotiate pay for me. I assume I'm not gonna be paid until August, though.

#257

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:40 PM

Benjamin Geiger:

we can always talk about how pathetic I am...

You aren't pathetic. You're going to get sent to the spanking couch if you persist...

#258

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:43 PM

*looks at Caine*

*thinks*

Oh, wah! I'm so horribly pathetic and ugly and nobody likes me!

. o O ( is it working? )

#259

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:43 PM

How utterly ridiculous to get drunk in black tie. Much more sensible to go in a cheap suit.

You forget... this is Oxford. It's not like the real world. :-)

==================

Further to my above posts, I do want to say how much I've come to really appreciate Pharyngula over the last few months. It's basically kept me sane all through my finals revision period. Lots of the regulars are awesome, and I've learnt a lot here and become more comfortable with myself. And I realise I'm irritating sometimes, and want to thank everyone for putting up with my annoying habits.

#260

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:47 PM

Benjamin:

. o O ( is it working? )

You just wait until Patricia gets ahold of you! ;D

#261

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:49 PM

Walton:

Lots of the regulars are awesome, and I've learnt a lot here and become more comfortable with myself.

That's wonderful. Now get the fuck off the net and study!

#262

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 5:55 PM

I like to insist that I'm a super taster, but I think I just really like bland food. If it's spicier than a bell pepper, it doesn't go in my mouth. Although some kids I babysit have gotten me into raw onions...

Kid: Can I have some onions with my tacos?
me: sure. *goes to fridge*
Kid: no they're in the garden.
me: %#$*$(&# *goes to pick onions out of garden and brings them to stove to carmelize*
Kid: oh no! I want them raw!
me: um, ok. less work for me.

Turns out I can't get enough of it. My mom apparently ate nothing but raw onions and chinese orange chicken when she was pregnant with me so maybe that explains it.

#264

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:07 PM

ATTENTION: For those of you who like to buy things on the internet, there is currently a Woot-off going on.

#265

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:11 PM

Benjamin @ 263, :D :D :D That's one way to go about it.

#266

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:20 PM

(Looks in, skims, see nothing that will force him to stay online...crosses to the secret closet...opens same and dons skintight black costume and goes forth to fight crime...trips on cape, falls down stairs and cuts foot...cannot find bandaids so covers the wound with Reynold's Wrap...curses, foiled again.)

#267

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:22 PM

As for that rabbit (having watched the vid), I doubt its behavior is heroic or laudable in any way. Like all bunny rabbits, it's quite stoopid. A different kind of snake would have popped it once and killed it, and this particular nonvenomous ratsnake or racer is minding its own business, but the rabbit, far from giving the snake the berth its suborder suggests might be wise, apparently thinks it's a damn carrot or something.

nope. this is common behavior for many small mammals that often live in large groups. They will attempt to be aggressive in order to dissuade predators (especially slow moving ones like snakes), and rely on their speed and maneuverability to avoid getting bit. I have seen this with prarie dogs in the US too, and have seen vids of meerkats and others doing this in other places.

as to rattlesnakes, it works just as well with them as with gopher snakes or others. snakes work from ambush or surpise. If prey know where they are, they often can get the upper hand.

btw, I also see similar behavior in fish! often, smaller fish will gang up and harass larger predators like sharks to drive them away.

that's why sharks typically hunt at night.

#268

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:47 PM

Ah. I see you have had Red, White and Blue beer. Or National Bohemian. Or (and this was my Dad's el cheapo beer) Narragansett.

Once upon a time there was a beer brewed in Rhode Island called Narragansett (or 'gansett to the cognoscenti). The Narragansett brewery was bought out by Falstaff and stopped brewing beer in the early 1980s. 'gansett was brewed in a Falstaff brewery in Illinois or Indiana, I forget which. Everyone agreed that midwest brewed 'gansett was terrible and sales plummeted. Five years ago, some Rhode Island businessmen bought the Naragansett name and started making 'gansett. One of their advertising slogans was 'gansett doesn't suck any more. And for once there was truth in advertising.

#269

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:53 PM

Nothing, eh? Ah well, alcohol and Class A narcotics make things SEEM funny.

Nite all, have a ZZ Top lullaby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3RLIU7T39I

#270

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 6:58 PM

JefferyD #266 AUGH! :D :D


Shala #200, A picture similar to our last two rabbits as juniors (brothers from the same litter). Pet this one's nose. This picture is similar to the bunny that rammed the fridge.

#271

Posted by: Nepenthe Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:20 PM

I'm unsure of all you rabbit lovers out there. The snake is definitely the aggrieved party here. Surely Walton could back me up on this, but he's off revising.

My corn just finished her shed this morning and is showing off her shiny new skin. Way more adorable than a bunny.

#272

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:43 PM

Walton:
I've got the Endless ThreadTM addiction, too, I think. But not for any better reasons than 1) I've lost use of my teevee* and 2) it's 90o F here at 7:40 pm. My apartment is easily 5-10 degrees hotter, so about the only thing I can do right now is sit in the courtyard and sweat.

But seeing what time it is, you had either be sleeping or studying, young man!

*Damn you, Red Dead Redemption! I want my teevee back! *shakes fist at Mr. ODS*

#273

Posted by: leepicton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:52 PM

Delayed camera discussion:
I have an old Nikon leather bag with the steel plate in the bottom for quick release of the lenses. I also have two fine old Nikkor lenses in perfect condition, two old bubble tops, and assorted rings and hoods. My dad was a good amateur photographer with his own darkroom, but I just want to take pictures with a nice digital camera. Caine, or whoever, if you want more info on the stuff I have (oh, yes, there are a number of color filters, too, give me a holler on my facebook page (this is my real name), I would like to find a good home for all this stuff. No reasonable offer refused.

#274

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:52 PM

My corn just finished her shed this morning and is showing off her shiny new skin.

white and red like this?

http://www.livefoodsbypost.co.uk/ekmps/shops/thepinkskink/resources/Image/Corn%20Snake%20web.jpg

or more yellow like this?

http://www.pethouse.org/assets/images/corn-snake.jpg

#275

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:53 PM

Walton - if you are friending who I think you are friending, I'm friends with them too and you could find and friend me through them if you like.

If that's not you, um, ignore everything I just said.

If it is you and you don't want me to know that's you, also ignore everything I just said, and I'll assume that's not you.

This whole post sounds like the spotted cuckoo is flying backwards.

#276

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 7:55 PM

ODS:

Damn you, Red Dead Redemption! I want my teevee back!

?

#277

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:01 PM

Red Dead Redemption

It's an Xbox 360 game. I only have one teevee and the one book I want to read hasn't arrived yet. :(

#278

Posted by: llewelly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:17 PM

Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 4:20 PM:

I'm just not into it. I drink it because I would consider it impolite not to, or not to stick out too much.

I find this puzzling. Do people really have friends who think it's impolite to not drink something one's friends are drinking? The first several times I went to bars to see bands I had nothing but coffee, even though the folks I was with offered to buy beer or wine for me. And every time I've been to bar on a work-related outing, I've had either coffee or water to drink. I've been to steak houses for work-related stuff and ordered something other than steak. And on and on. And in no case have I ever seen a negative reaction.

#279

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:18 PM

Carlie:

This whole post sounds like the spotted cuckoo is flying backwards.
Yeah, you were starting to sound Agent 86-ish there. I was about to demand that we all use the Cone of Silence this thread.

#280

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:19 PM

Now at home. Dinner finished. Dishes finished. Barbecue pork with onion, garlic and olive oil. Pasta with roasted garlic, artichoke hearts and olive oil.

I like spicey foods, but my tolerance is moderate. When I was at a forest fire in Oregon (the Warm Springs Reservation), a native woman set up a trailer outside the fire camp and began selling Navajo tacos. You could get them sweet or traditional. If you opted for traditional, the choices were hot, mild, or gringo. I went for mild and it was flaming hot.

While I was working the front gate (keeping looky-loos, thieves, and other undesirables out of the fire camp (just radios alone at a fire can be upwards of a million dollars)), a young woman with two little girls (two and four) came to visit her husband. I called back to supply and he said he would be there in five. The two year old said she was hungry. Mom told the four year old to grab her a snack. So the kid grabbed a chili pepper and handed it to the younger one. I could smell the fresh heat from the pepper from five feet away. All I could think was, man, I'm glad I don't have to change that diaper.

#281

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:21 PM

ODS:

It's an Xbox 360 game. I only have one teevee and the one book I want to read hasn't arrived yet. :(

Kick his ass off, woman! Mitchell & Webb is on BBCmerica tonight - this is important stuff! ;) I'm sorry you're tv-less and without new books. I'm currently reading The Devil in the White City, which is interesting (architecture, 1893 World's Fair, H.H. Holmes) but the writing style is irritating me something fierce. *sigh*

#282

Posted by: Nepenthe Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:23 PM

@Ichthyic 274

Neither. She's an amel, not sure what pattern exactly. Got her from a friend who had lost interest, so I'm not even sure she's a female. I figure the genetics are irrelevant since I have absolutely no intention of breeding her.

I haven't taken any pictures, but this is pretty much what she looks like. Only she's much more beautiful and has an even nicer little heart on her face.

#283

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:29 PM

leepicton @ 273, that sounds wonderful and I'd dearly like to add more lenses, but it's not something I can do for the next good while, I'm afraid house repairs and house related things must come first this year.

#284

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:33 PM

Caine:
I read The Devil in The White City and I think it's worth it, even if it gets a little dry. Hell, I'd still have read it even if it was just the world's fair angle.

I'm actually reading two books*, Shock Doctrine (which I've been meaning to pick up for years) and Procession of the Dead, they're just not really holding my attention right now.

Mr. ODS and I are both gamers. He never complains when I'm using the teevee for weeks on end, so it's only fair that I return the favor.

*One stays at work to read while on break, the other is "home reading."

#285

Posted by: llewelly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:38 PM

Ol'Greg | May 26, 2010 3:49 PM:

There's some other taste in tabasco that I have trouble putting into words.


Somehow I think if I chopped up a hot chili and sprinkled vinegar on it that the resulting product would lack that flavor so maybe it's a part of the manufacturing process?


Tabasco has salt in it. And they use cheap crappy vinegar. The kind a food snob would only use for cleaning drains. And they age it in white oak barrels for 3 years. I'm sure it picks up plenty of weird chemicals from the oak barrels.


And as for "funyons" ... did you know if you make your own corn batter covered onion rings, they taste rather different - and a lot better.


#286

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:49 PM

ODS:

I read The Devil in The White City and I think it's worth it, even if it gets a little dry.

Oh, I don't mind dry, it's the quick flipping between subjects that I find irritating. I know it's a standard technique, it's just one I don't care for. Doesn't matter that much, the subject is interesting and I don't know that much about Chicago or the 1893 fair.

#287

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:55 PM

iambilly:

Now at home. Dinner finished. Dishes finished. Barbecue pork with onion, garlic and olive oil. Pasta with roasted garlic, artichoke hearts and olive oil.
For me, it's chicken and rice soup with brownies for dessert, all made from scratch. Nothing remotely spicy about it.

#288

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 8:57 PM

deriaimis - notice the secret time bomb I also hid in the comment, which will detonate upon clicking the blue phrase and destroy several hours' worth of time.

#289

Posted by: leepicton Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:10 PM

PZ should be glad that the bunny his cat presented him with was already dead. Our magnificent huntress would catch small field rabbits and bring them to me and drop them from her bloody jaws at my feet. On one occasion the supposedly dead bunny started, jumped up and started running around our apartment. I, of course, had to chase it down, whack it on the head to kill it properly, and then clean up the blood. Those were the days. Our current cat has never had hunting lessons and when let loose on the deck, catches bugs and annoys them to death.

#290

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:15 PM

Snakes and house rabbits aren't mutually exclusive - we have a ball python, 2 house rabbits, and 2 cats. And I have a mealworm colony and a Chilean rosehair tarantula on my desk at work.

#291

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:20 PM

deriamis:

Nothing spicy this time, just lots of garlic. I found a restaurant supply company which sells peeled whole garlic cloves in a five pound plastic jug!!!11!!!!!111! I just toss the whole thing in the freezer and I have enough easy-to-use-after-a-long-hot-day-of-work garlic to last like two months. I used 15 cloves of roasted garlic to make three servings of pasta, artichoke hearts and roasted garlic. Oh, with parsley.

Good night.

#292

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:22 PM

Benjamin @258 No bunny, and I mean nobody is too pathetic and ugly not to get marched off to the spanking couch. It's a #9 walnut paddle for you buster!

#293

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:23 PM

Carlie:

deriaimis - notice the secret time bomb I also hid in the comment, which will detonate upon clicking the blue phrase and destroy several hours' worth of time.
You are a very, very tempting woman, Carlie. However, I am immune to your charms. I opened the tab, read what was in it, then closed it. Ha! My productivity is salvaged!

leepicton:

Our current cat has never had hunting lessons and when let loose on the deck, catches bugs and annoys them to death.
Ours never goes outside because he's such a 'fraidy cat. About the only thing he is not afraid of (strangely enough) is bugs, so he has been elected the household flyswatter. He's actually quite good at it and we have fun watching him stalk the June bugs.

#294

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:25 PM

He's actually quite good at it and we have fun watching him stalk the June bugs.

Jealous! I've got three cats and they have yet to catch anything: bugs, mice, etc.

The only thing it seems they're good at is missing the litter box.

#295

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:34 PM

OurDeadSelves:

The only thing it seems they're good at is missing the litter box.
No need to feel jealous. We had to get a special litter box to prevent Alex from missing. And you should be very glad you don't have to clean that litter box after him. I guarantee, he far outdoes your three cats in stinkiness.

#296

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:44 PM

Hot and muggy here. I've got the AC on, mainly to deal with the humidity.

I know, whine whine whine.

#297

Posted by: Ribozyme Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:44 PM

Well, I'm Mexican and I don't like cilantro, I find it too ovewhelming. I can tolerate it in very small amounts. I don't ike licorice and spearmint very much either, and I remember being little when my mom took us to the country to pick up wild oregano and in the way back I had to make a very strong effort no to vomit, as we had a station wagon and the smell coming from the back was overwhelming, at least to me. I think I can attribute it to having Aspergerger's and the concomitant hypersensitivity to to sensory signals. When I was little I wouldn't tolerate clothes that were slightly damp or had too protuberant seams. Loud sounds and noises still bother me.

On the other hand, I LOVE hot food. I like chipotle (didn't even know it had become popular in the USA), but as some have said, it can be easily overwhelming. Of course, roasted, raw or vinegar pickled jalapeño, serrano (do you have those in the USA?) or piquín (hot and tasty, very small). And "chile de árbol", poblano, pasilla, ancho, morita, güero, and a long et caetera. Habanero isn't all that popular in Mexico, precisely because of its lack of taste, and is used only for the food from Yucatan (yes, where the asteroid/comet that killed the dinosaurs hit). You can make a lovely optional addition to tacos with it. It's called "cebolla verde". What you do is make a rather thin paste out of habanero peppers and then wet thin slices of raw onion with it. You add the onions to the tacos and leave most of the pepper paste behind. One of the most popular bottled hot sauces in Mexico is "Valentina", but it has a lot of vinegar in it and I think it's too hot for American tastes. It's great for tortilla chips and other junk food. Most mexican sauces are made with tomato, onions, sometimes garlic and tomatillo (a fruit that looks like a small green tomato but is very sour) and, of course, either raw or cooked (you specially have to do that with dried peppers; they need a good boiling to re-hydrate) peppers, all ground in a "molcajete" (a mortar-like instrument made of volcanic porous rock) or a blender. Some sauces call for roasting the tomatoes and pepper in a pan.

I find it peculiar that they put a lot of cilantro in cooked rice. That's not common practice in Mexico. The most popular rice recipe uses just tomato, onion, sometimes a little garlic and perhaps very little cilantro or other herbs and spices (cumin is popular). My mother likes to make "green rice", in which she uses "poblano" pepper (the taste is similar to bell pepper, but hotter) instead of the tomato, and the resulting rice is a beautiful green color. One of the "secret" ingredients for Mexican rice is beef/chicken boullion concentrate, usually in powdered form. It really adds to the taste because of its glutamate content.

#298

Posted by: Ribozyme Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:47 PM

Oh my! A lot has happened since I last refreshed...

#299

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 9:52 PM

'Tis-
It hit 102o while I was in Kingston, NY today. And I still can't go into my apt. 'cos it's at least 85o in there.

I will join you in your whining. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!

#300

Posted by: Shala Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:00 PM

Shala #200, A picture similar to our last two rabbits as juniors (brothers from the same litter). Pet this one's nose. This picture is similar to the bunny that rammed the fridge.

those are adorable

i should get pictures of my pets when i go home in June

#301

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:00 PM

Carlie-

Walton - if you are friending who I think you are friending, I'm friends with them too and you could find and friend me through them if you like.
I'm friends with Walton, too. Can you find me?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I fixed Katsu-don tonight. I can see by the notes in the cookbook that I've made it before, but can't recall when. The younger kids, who don't remember Japan (they were 3 months old when we left) had to be convinced by telling them it was Japanese Wiener-schnitzel on rice. They loved it, so I guess that worked.

#302

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:01 PM

Mexican rice - oh yumm!!! Our little local mexican taco stand serves tongue tacos and rice as a regular menu choice, yum, yum.

My favorite german deli has blood and tongue head cheese...I like it, and yeah go ahead and make some risque comments. *snort*

#303

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:02 PM

We're having a thunderstorm. The cat is so hot that when a crash of thunder happened instead of rushing under the bed she raised her head, gave a plaintive meow, and then put her head down again.

Speaking of putting heads down, it's time for me to see if my pillow still works. G'night all. Or g'day to the Australian contingent.

#304

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:04 PM

I think Bill D suggested that Pharynguloids in the DC area might want to get together next weekend (i.e. the one a week from now, not day after tomorrow). He'd suggested Alexandria, which I think is great as it's totally convenient for me and the location of my favorite yarn store. Is this still a viable idea? We can discuss Walton's looks.

#305

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:05 PM

shortly, the Main Gauche household will be adding two small kittens to the animal population. One of our cats died (badly, of cancer) a few months ago, and Daughter decided it was time for a replacement. The cat shelter we sometimes volunteer at had a deal where you could adopt two kittens for the price of one (pre-neutered/spayed, up to date on shots, parasite-free), and there were two in an older clutch of kittens that Daughter fell in love with.

oh, and for whatever it's worth, cilantro tastes of soap to me, and I don't like things that are too hot. I'm very attached to my taste buds, and see no reason to burn them off. Son and Husband, however, like things very hot, so whatever I cook tends to be made mild and served with condiments.

#306

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:11 PM

Patricia:

THANK YOU MA'AM MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!

llewelly:

Problem with homemade onion rings is that there is always too much onion in them. 9 times out of 10, I'll bite one, spit out that bite, pull the onion out of the remainder of the ring, and eat just the batter.

Ribozyme:

I love the chipotle Tabasco sauce, and I'll snack on pepperoncini (eating around the ribs/seeds, though). I put pickled jalapeno chips on sandwiches. The only time I eat tomatillos is at Chipotle, in their hot salsa.

One of my coworkers is from Mexico; I'll see if he'll pick me up a bottle or three of Valentina next time he goes to visit family.

Another hot sauce I like, but haven't had in a while, is the "Batch 81" sauce at Quizno's. I don't even like the subs at Quizno's that much; the sauce is worth it.

#307

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:13 PM

Mosquitos are evil and all need to die. Now. Not tomorrow, now.

Sing it! *damned little filthy winged hypodermic needles*

#308

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:18 PM

OurDeadSelves:

It hit 102o while I was in Kingston, NY today. And I still can't go into my apt. 'cos it's at least 85o in there.
I will join you in your whining. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!
Bah. I live in Houston, TX. Whine away, but you'll get no sympathy from my direction.

#309

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:25 PM

Benjamin Geiger:

Problem with homemade onion rings is that there is always too much onion in them. 9 times out of 10, I'll bite one, spit out that bite, pull the onion out of the remainder of the ring, and eat just the batter.
The secret is to make the onion rings somewhat wide so you can easily pull them apart, soak them in some milk for about 30 minutes, then allow them to dry on a rack. Before you batter them, dredge them in flour and knock off the excess. Make sure your batter is the right thickness (should be about like pancake batter) and make sure you cook them at a bit lower heat than you would french fries. Pull them out when they start to ping rather than sizzle. Perfect rings, every time, that won't fall out of the fried batter.

#310

Posted by: Owlmirror Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:34 PM

102o?
85o?

The HTML entity for degrees is °

102°
85°

#311

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:41 PM

It's 58F here, yet another thunderstorm is moving in. I'm tired of rain but I'd rather have that than the miserable heat others are dealing with right now.

#313

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:47 PM

Benjamin - No, you may not have another. The spanking line here at Castle Anthrax is long. Toddle off to the chaple, where all prayers are answered...

#314

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:48 PM

It's a girl. A perfectly healthy girl. :-D

The nurse said newborns typically don't eat much the first day and after a few hours they crash and spend most of the next 24 hours sleeping. This one has ate all day and practically refused to sleep until just now. So I'm going to start getting ready for some shut-eye. |-\, (drooling in sleep emoticon)

Scratch that. She just woke up. Bye bye.

#315

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:50 PM

KOPD: Happy monkey!

#316

Posted by: boygenius Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:51 PM

w00t!!1!

Congratulations, KOPD proud pappa!

Glad everything went well. See you in 18 years.

#317

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:51 PM

KOPD, congrats to you all.

#318

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:53 PM

Bah. I live in Houston, TX. Whine away, but you'll get no sympathy from my direction.

:P

Living in the Northeast as I do, I sure as shit don't want to deal with TX weather! Totes unfair.

#319

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:53 PM

And while we're talking about food - here's my dessert for tonight: Better-Than-The-Box Brownies. Oh, yeah. You bet your ass they are. (And yes, that is my Tastebook.)

#320

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:54 PM

Caine - Rain and cold here in Oregon too. I have my pellet stove going, and the Pullet PatrolTM are mincing about with wet skirts. I only got three eggs today. Grumble, grumble.

#321

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:55 PM

Dust, Sili,

Congrats on the jobs. So awesome! :)

KOPD,

YAY! Good to hear she's perfect and healthy. :) I hope Mom has a speedy recovery, too.

#322

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:55 PM

KOPD!

Woot! Congrats on your baby girl!

*hugs for the new dad!*

#323

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:55 PM

Congratulations to KOPD. Don't expect a lot of sleep for the next few weeks...

#324

Posted by: Cobolt Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:57 PM

Congrats KOPD. How's Mrs KOPD?

#325

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 10:58 PM

KOPD:

It's a girl. A perfectly healthy girl. :-D
W00t!

OurDeadSelves:Living in the Northeast as I do, I sure as shit don't want to deal with TX weather!Hell, I live here, and I don't want to deal with this weather! I'd love to be in Colorado right about now, somewhere high up - Boulder, perhaps.

#326

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:01 PM

KOPD: Hollaaaaa!

I say this with all seriousness: sleep is over-rated. Sleep is for those who believe in heaven. Abandon thoughts of sleep.

Make sure you let us know the first time you spend the day unwittingly with baby shit on you somewhere.

#327

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:01 PM

Re #325: Damn, blockquote fail! I knew I shouldn't have tried posting about two unrelated things at the same time!

#328

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:01 PM

Now that I've been searching facebook, I'm never feeling sorry for Walton again. Dude has more than 400 friends! ;)

#329

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:03 PM

KOPD - Congratulations! Good on ya that it's a girl. My grandma had these words of wisdom:

A son is a son,
till he takes a wife,
But a daughter's your daughter,
all of her life.

No doubt she read that somewhere, but a good sentiment. I'm still daddies girl, and he's 79.

#330

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:04 PM

Hooray for the KOPD family! Well done, you three!

A Happy Monkey, indeed.

#331

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:11 PM

Thanks everybody. Mama J is sore but recovering well. The delivery went very well.

#332

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:13 PM

Patricia:

the Pullet PatrolTM are mincing about with wet skirts. I only got three eggs today. Grumble, grumble.

Naughty girls. Every Spring, I think about keeping chickens, then I think about the nasty ass winters and don't do it. I wouldn't mind having a goose to patrol the property and keep the dogs in line though. ;D

#333

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:14 PM

I'm never feeling sorry for Walton again.

Good. He's a spoiled little rich kid that feels sorry enough for his privileged little libertarian, forced to take health care self.

*snort* *snort* *snort*

#334

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:16 PM

Patricia: my next-door neighbor has started a pullet patrol of her own. I'm hoping she eventually has enough eggs to share.

It's pretty soppy up here to the north of you, as well. I squelched my way to the garden today, to be certain the slugs hadn't been partying in the vegetables. All safe and sound, so far.

#335

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:19 PM

When the rabbits misbehaved we showed them the stew pot. It seemed to help. Start talking about making a batch of dumplings. Maybe the Pullet Patrol™ needs some inspiration...

#336

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:20 PM

Caine - If you live in the USA there are some really nice heritage breeds of chickies that can take the snow and ice without batting an eye, and keep laying super eggs all winter.

Where I live on the OR/WA border it gets to be in the 100 degree temps. in the summer and the old breeds do well and keep chucking out the eggs.

They do grumble some.

#337

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:23 PM

Patricia, I'm in North Dakota. The last few winters have been absolutely brutal, with temps rarely above Zero and one blizzard on top of another. Heat isn't usually a terrible problem, every once in a while we get the killer high temps.

#338

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:29 PM

maybe the Pullet PatrolTMneeds some inspiration...
Fried, stewed, dumplings, roasted, pot pie - the Patrol has heard it all, and they shashay about the yard doing Dolly Parton impressions, without the slightest regard for my threats.

Saucy chicks!

#339

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:42 PM

Caine - Oh dear, North Dakota. That is one miserable cold cow tit freeze'n state. My dear departed husband spent several years there as a ranch hand and in the Army (doing who knows what). I know that he worked on ranches that had chickens.

The lowest temps my chickies ever layed in was 6 below zero for three days. The chickies were fine, but the eggs froze and split. Providing water in those conditions was the hardest chore.

#340

Posted by: 34jlg34 Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:47 PM

I'd like to add you, Katrina, Carlie and Walton, my IRL name can be found interrupting one of Jadehawk's threads.

#341

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:47 PM

Hey y'all,

I just got back in town, and haven't even made a minimal attempt (yet) to catch up on the Pharyngula goodness. Just wanted to pop in and say howdy.

Now, what did I miss? :-)

#342

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:49 PM

bubba mubba lubba chubba

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIccZsURyLc

#343

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM Author Profile Page | May 26, 2010 11:51 PM

Josh - Not much. Just the spanking, the oral sex and KOPD becoming a new father.

Have fun - I'm off to cook. Bon appetite!

#346

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:02 AM

Josh, glad you're back!

Patricia:

That is one miserable cold cow tit freeze'n state.

That it is.

My dear departed husband spent several years there as a ranch hand and in the Army (doing who knows what). I know that he worked on ranches that had chickens.

Your dear departed husband probably spent a lot of tedious time mending fences. It's a major preoccupation 'round here. A lot of people here have chickens (and ducks). Chicken keeping can be done here, but it's hard for me to get motivated about it, mostly because fresh eggs are easy to come by.

#347

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:09 AM

*peeks in*

congratulations on the brand new spawn, KOPD; I hope you remembered to arrange caffeine-delivery-service for you and the mother :-p

*goes back to work*

#348

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:17 AM

Jadehawk,

I think you earned that OM all over again arguing with the troll over in the rape and misogyny thread! He just kept ignoring anything substantive and playing his one card (women take time off to raise a family) over and over again. It was really infuriating to see how he ignored every point you made. GAH!

With that, I'm off to sleep and dream.

#349

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:30 AM

KOPD, congrats on the girl! Have ya'll decided on a name for her?

We had to get a special litter box to prevent Alex from missing. And you should be very glad you don't have to clean that litter box after him. I guarantee, he far outdoes your three cats in stinkiness.

I will back my Midnight's stinky stench against all comers! He also had a bad tendancy to miss the box, so we got him a litter box that could easily have served as a small child's wading pool.

All this talk about soapy-tasting herbs makes me wonder....to me, burning marijuana smells soapy. Am I alone in this?

#350

Posted by: boygenius Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:35 AM

....to me, burning marijuana smells soapy.

Where do you buy your soap? Want!

#351

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:44 AM

Why, I buy my soap at a little whole foods market; but that's not relevant to the matter at hand, because the soap I buy smells of sandlewood, whereas the marijuana's soapy smell smells more like Ivory soap.

And I hate the smell of Ivory soap.

#352

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:51 AM

Cicely:

All this talk about soapy-tasting herbs makes me wonder....to me, burning marijuana smells soapy.

First time I've heard that. It definitely doesn't smell like soap to me, in any state.

#353

Posted by: boygenius Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:04 AM

I've heard people describe pot smoke as skunky, citrusy, spicy, earthy, and even like burnt popcorn (?). Never heard soapy before.

*Pssst, hey kid. Wanna buy a bar of Ivory?*

#354

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:14 AM

Congrats to KOPD, and a healthy little girl.

I've never had an evil cat, but I've had one who was insanely jealous and protective. I could have my boyfriend come over when my parents weren't home on one condition: the jealous one stayed by me.

Anyone who approached when my cat was near me first got the demon death threat growl; that usually did the trick. If the person tried to touch me--

:::shudder::::

One time, he leapt out of my arms, tore a friend's blouse to shreds and went for her throat with claws and mouth when she waved as she approached me.

Sweet as could be to me, though.

I also had Diana, goddess of the hunt. Every day, I left in the morning and came home to a carcass, or several: Birds, mice, bats, rabbits, chipmunks, gophers, moths, worms, lizards, baby prairie dogs(!), toads(!!), snakes(!!!)--if it was from the animal kingdom and her size or smaller, she'd bring it home. Decapitated.

I never could figure out what the headless thing was about, or how she managed it (or her success) when her front paws were de-clawed.

#355

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:21 AM

Congrats KOPD! That's wonderful!

#356

Posted by: John Morales Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:25 AM

May I add my commiserations to KOPD on the new (but healthy) burden. :)

#357

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:28 AM

@ Patricia:

Josh - Not much. Just the spanking, the oral sex and KOPD becoming a new father.


Ooooooo. . . spankun's!!

KOPD - you spawned? Really? Congrats:)

#358

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:28 AM

Shit. Walton buggered off before I could ask him to direct me to his facebook page so I could see if he's being as narcissistically self-pitying as I suspect, or if he really is unattractive. Not that how one looks has bupkis to do with acquiring a relationship/sex. It's probably more the narcissistic self-pity thing in his case.

Evidence, Walton. I'll be dead honest with you, in a way that might make it perfectly clear: Fuckable. Or not.

Deal?

#359

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:29 AM

'Night, all.

#360

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:37 AM

congratulations on the brand new spawn, KOPD; I hope you remembered to arrange caffeine-delivery-service for you and the mother :-p

No caffeine for mom if she's nursing. Not unless you want a wired baby.

But what do I know about insomniac babies? I was lucky. The Aquaria spawn started sleeping through the night @ 9 weeks old.

#361

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:38 AM

For those of you following my mini drama -

Michael died today at 4:30 p.m. After a long, stupid, futile, frustrating struggle, he finally asked for morphine so he could spend his last few hours in some semblance of comfort. Thank fuck. I told him two nights before he died, "You may be dying and you may be the one in pain, but you still have the capacity to irritate me because you're a stubborn son of a bitch. :=) I love you, but it's time to let go."

I'm glad I was there with him. But his painful death reminds me how important it is to work for Death With Dignity laws. We need to change the law, and the culture, so that dying people can choose their own time, in their own way.

#362

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak, Das unzufriedene Pikachu Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:44 AM

Josh - Not much. Just the spanking, the oral sex and KOPD becoming a new father.

Josh still hasn't given me my spanking.

Oh and congrats KOPD.

And cuttlefish cake

#363

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:49 AM

Josh, I'm not up to speed. Was this you S.O.?

If so, I'm sorry for your loss, but relieved that you could be with him at the end. I get really upset when that isn't the case.

#364

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak, Das unzufriedene Pikachu Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:54 AM

Okay, having submitted my last comment after Josh posted his, I feel like a douche now.

Sorry about your lost. I don’t know the whole story but I understand that you must be in pain.

#365

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:57 AM

Aquaria:

Thank you for asking. No, Michael was not my significant other. He was a very dear friend. When I was a young, confused teen, Michael was a counselor at the LGBT youth support group that aimed to help kids having a hard time coming out. He founded the first Gay Straight Alliance at a public school in upstate New York; he cared deeply about the well being of young, confused gay/lesbian/bisexual/trans kids. He engineered some of the most important steps forward for LGBT youth, and public school teachers, in the history of the state.

The best way I can describe him is. . . a "foster father" to me who became a beloved friend as I grew into adulthood. I'll miss him sorely, and so will many people, whether they knew him or not.


#366

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:58 AM

Josh, I'm so sorry for your friend and for you and for everyone there that had to go through that.

I've missed you around here too!

#367

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:59 AM

If so, I'm sorry for your loss, but relieved that you could be with him at the end. I get really upset when that isn't the case.

These are my sentiments as well, Josh.

I wish you my sincerest condolences.

#368

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:00 AM

Birth and Death in one thread.

Congrats KOPD! Hope both your women-folk are well tonight :P

#369

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:00 AM

Josh:

Michael died today at 4:30 p.m.

I am so very sorry for your loss, Josh. How is Michael's partner?

I'm glad I was there with him. But his painful death reminds me how important it is to work for Death With Dignity laws. We need to change the law, and the culture, so that dying people can choose their own time, in their own way.

That's a whole lot of truth. There simply aren't enough options and there is no easy framework for people to die in the way they wish. I've been thinking about this, mostly because I've been drawing up my will. I have tried to cover most situations, but there's no way of knowing what my death situation will be. I want to be able to die at home, hopefully, I'll be able to do that.

#370

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:10 AM

Ah..

Then I'm still sorry for your loss.

#371

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:12 AM

Oh, and it sounds like he was a wonderful person. How lucky you were to know him.

#372

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:15 AM

@Caine:

I am so very sorry for your loss, Josh. How is Michael's partner?

Tim is as well (or as poorly) as you'd expect. He bears the brunt of Michael's death; the estate, the lawyers, the *infuriating fact* that he has to pay taxes on "inheriting" Michael's estate - something that would never happen to heterosexual couples.

If any of you casual Pharyngula readers stumble across this and wonder why gay marriage matters - *know* that all the financial planning in the world doesn't save Tim from paying tax on Michael's estate. If Tim were Michael's
"wife," there would be no question. But since he's not, everything that would be Tim's is now tied up in probate, and subject to tax.

It's ugly, it's inhuman, and it's unfair. And I'm very bitter about it.

#373

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:25 AM

@Josh: I lost someone very much like that to me, but I wasn't even around for it. I didn't even know about it until a year afterward. My condolences, man.

Caine:

That's a whole lot of truth. There simply aren't enough options and there is no easy framework for people to die in the way they wish.
Go read the CPR and ECC Guidelines, freely available from the American Heart Association. There's a neat section (Part 2) in the article that focuses on medical ethics. These are the guidelines I have to follow in the field as an EMT.

If doctors were allowed to actually follow it, the world might be a much better place to be sick in. As it is, hospital administrators seem much more concerned with what the public thinks than what is good for the patient. It's one reason I advocate for the direction of hospitals by physicians who make actual patient contact.

#374

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:37 AM

@deriamis:

The nurses who took care of Michael were angels. You couldn't ask for kinder, more dedicated people. The doctors did the best they could, but they avoided frank conversations about time lines, and prognoses. I resent them (bitterly) for that cowardice. And no, I don't want to hear about how "we can't predict, you see, because every patient is different. . . "

Doctors know damned well when someone is going to die in a month or so, and they OWE it to a patient to be candid, so he can plan his last days.

We got nothing but equivocation (and it wasn't even plausible) from M's doctors. Ass-covering. We learned to rely on the nurses, who were far more straightforward and the mark.

#375

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:40 AM

Josh:

It's ugly, it's inhuman, and it's unfair. And I'm very bitter about it.
Truly, it is. I am so thankful that both my husband and I are destitute. And yes, I really mean that. Still, we have resigned ourselves to the fact that we will never be married in the State's eyes. If it happens, then it is a wonderful day. What we will not accept is the "separate but equal" compromise of domestic partnership. For us, it's all or nothing.

Our solution to the problem of the state getting whatever possessions we might have upon the death of one of us? We have agreed to give everything we have to charities rather than to each other. It keeps us from having to deal with the bullshit and it keeps the State from profiting off its institutionalized bigotry.

#376

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:43 AM

Josh:

He bears the brunt of Michael's death; the estate, the lawyers, the *infuriating fact* that he has to pay taxes on "inheriting" Michael's estate

FFS, that's criminal. It really is and I'm so sick and tired of people having to go through this sort of thing when they are already tired, grieving and vulnerable.

Deriamis:

I already have that sort of thing covered. What I'm concerned with is having the resources to be able to die where and when I wish in the event of a terminal disease such as cancer. I have DNR and all that taken care of along with who gets to pull the plug if necessary, etc.

#377

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:49 AM

Josh:

We got nothing but equivocation (and it wasn't even plausible) from M's doctors. Ass-covering. We learned to rely on the nurses, who were far more straightforward and the mark.
It's because doctors have become gun-shy from all the lawsuits that are targeted at them. Even the good ones can be expected to be sued several times a year, and even if none of them award damages to the plaintiff, the legal fees keep them from becoming financially successful.

I would bet they were afraid that one of you would attempt to sue for negligence because they weren't doing "everything in their power" to cure your friend. (There are plenty of medical claims lawyers down here in Houston that absolutely disgust me with their pitches to sue the living daylights out of your doctor for not doing things that were impossible at the time of your injury.) It's still cowardly - they should have the courage to tell the truth - but it is also understandable, if not excusable.

#378

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:56 AM

Caine:

I already have that sort of thing covered. What I'm concerned with is having the resources to be able to die where and when I wish in the event of a terminal disease such as cancer.
Ah, do you mean financially? I know there is such a thing as home hospice, which is paid for by most insurances, medicare, and medicaid. I don't know if this is what you mean, but I do know what doctors are required by their ethics to allow patients to die in the manner of their choosing, as long as it doesn't involve assisted suicide. (Though a doctor can prescribe a potentially lethal dose of morphine to control pain at the end of life.)

Wow, this has turned into a thoroughly morbid thread. We have a new life in the world - we should be celebrating!

#379

Posted by: rszasz Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:00 AM

Jumping into the endless thread. I've been lusting after this http://www.amazon.com/Canon-MP-E-65mm-Macro-Cameras/dp/B00009XVD5 5:1 Macro lens for ages now but am using a pentax and have enough lenses that I don't want to switch away. Does anyone here have experience using something like the infinitube http://www.infinity-usa.com for doing macro photography?

#380

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:18 AM

Well, after some deliberation I've booked my flights and accommodation to go back to my home town in July; partly to go to my 20th High School reunion - but more to see my father for what almost certainly will be the last time since a) he's nearly 82, b) he lives over 1,000 miles away, and c) I don't actually like him enough to want to see him any more often than about once every ten years or so.

The reunion is going to be weird and almost certainly uncomfortable; as far as I can tell, none of the very few people who were my friends at high school (but with whom I have not stayed in contact) are going, meaning that I'll be surrounded by a whole bunch of people whose opinions of me are unlikely to have changed in twenty years.

Not that the feeling won't, in all probability, be mutual.

Of course, now I have to get around to calling my father - who I don't, as a general rule, speak to - and let him know I'm going to be coming to see him. And that's very, very daunting because if I found talking to him easy we probably wouldn't be estranged.

#381

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:21 AM

Wow, this has turned into a thoroughly morbid thread. We have a new life in the world - we should be celebrating!

LOL, well, true, it is easy to turn a thread morbid. :-) Me? I'm glad my friend Michael has died. Not because I want him to, but because it was time. There's a time for death (however sad), and a time for moving on.

KOPD - most hearty congratulations on a healthy daughter! I'm happy for you and your wife, and happy to celebrate new life coming into our world:-)

#382

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:23 AM

Deriamis, yes, financially and ending up with a doctor who has the courage to be upfront about things. The hospice situation is not great in my current location, so that's another consideration.

rszasz:

Macro lenses are nice! I haven't heard of the infinitube, I'll check it out. I've found that my little point 'n' shoot Coolpix does great macro and since I still have it, it's easy to whip out for macro shots. I get good macro with my 18-135mm too, so I haven't gotten a dedicated macro lens yet. I'd like one though.

#383

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:26 AM

Wowbagger, are you sure this trip is worth it? Sounds like unpleasantness and stress.

#384

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:29 AM

Josh, condolences and glad you were able to be there for all of you and spend some real time with him. One of the worst things in the world is not having a chance to say goodbye. Of course, saying goodbye is always difficult, but not having the chance to say the words beforehand, even if just to yourself, is so damn hard. Glad you had the chance.

#385

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:43 AM

Caine, Fleur du mal wrote:

Wowbagger, are you sure this trip is worth it? Sounds like unpleasantness and stress.

Oh, I'm sure it's going to be that - but it's something I feel I have to do, especially the seeing-my-father-for-the-last-time part. I'm looking at it as closing a particular chapter of my life - as kind of lamely self-help-program I know that probably sounds.

#386

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:50 AM

Congrats to Mrs KOPD, KOPD, and the KOPDLETTE.

Walton, I cannot believe you are on facebook, have a reported 400 friends and are complaining about your looks. OK, I am on as keltixx at yahoo with a com attached, I show my pic. And yes, I know this means all of you can see me, find out my real name, email me, and all sorts of terrible things (gasp) and I do not give a damn anymore. I figured that the day I went on facebook, recently, my privacy was over. I did it so I can keep track of kids, nieces and nephews. Be sure to check out my second best friend, Bob D. Skull. (And no, not kwoking for friends - I tend to keep the numbers down so I can actually keep track of people, but always willing to meet new people - Bob D. loves friends.)

#387

Posted by: rszasz Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:51 AM

Caine, the inifitube system is aimed at the machine vision market but was the only thing I found that looked like a decently developed system for using long working distance microscope objectives. On the other hand I might be able to find a canon EF to pentax K mount adapter, sell a kidney, and get the canon 5:1 macro that is seen as the best on the market.

#388

Posted by: Fortknox Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:19 AM

Tell me if you agree(updated with an example) with this-

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Is Rachel Maddow superstitious?

#389

Posted by: Usagichan Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:24 AM

I see Fortknox, our obnoxious racist troll is now spamming the threads - Such determination to get a place in the dungeon.

#390

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:24 AM

Go away, Fortknox. You are font-spamming the thread.

#391

Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:24 AM

Wowbagger

The ex and I are now on good terms and are conversing well so he has been confiding in me about his life of late.

He's currently in the UK ( and has been for a few weeks) to see his father, a man he has hardly spoken to in 30 years. He was an alcoholic, wife and child abuser and my ex left home at 15 ( joined to Army) to get away from it all. Now the old man is dying and, although it's hard to gauge a time ( he keeps "rallying" back) it'll be in the next few months for sure.

The ex has told me that it felt cathartic to see him and talk finally. I don't think they had any spectacular deep and meaningfuls but my ex has told me it felt really important for him to see him one last time to get closure and ending. He had to try and counter his feelings of resentment and pain over the natural feeling of empathy for a now frail and pained human being and said this was actually the hardest thing, not automatically giving him a "free pass" in his mind because of his current state.

Whatever the outcome he says he has finally found release and has talked about how all this pent up crap he's been carrying around has coloured his relationships over the years (this of course I knew but he'd always rejected as a notion).

I'm not saying you're trip home will be like this but I admire you for going ( for fuck's sake it's Bowen- I admire anyone who even goes NEAR the place) and knowing you ( in the limited sense that I do) I think you're a pretty astute judge of people and have a pretty good handle on things. Try and enjoy if nothing else and again I have respect for you going.

#392

Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:29 AM

JeffreyD

I posted my personal email address a couple of times here when I was organising the Pharyngula get together in Melbourne. Not surprisingly, given the crowd here, everyone was aamzingly respectful and I didn't get one bit of shit flung my way, only genuine emails.

I'm still a bit pissed though that Ken Ham missed his opportunity to "catch up" with one of his fellow Queenslanders.

#393

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:31 AM

Josh: I'm very sorry for your loss. And I agree with this:

But his painful death reminds me how important it is to work for Death With Dignity laws. We need to change the law, and the culture, so that dying people can choose their own time, in their own way.
#394

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:33 AM

Oh, and I forgot to mention: no, Fortknox, Rachel Maddow is not superstitious. If you actually watched her sometime, you would understand that.

Geez, you really have a way of assuming things about people, don't you? First, it's the superstitious negroes, and now it's a superstitious TV personality, all based on superficial behaviors? You really are a judgmental bastard.

So, yeah. You've failed to convince me that you are worth my time. You are now on my ignore list. Thanks for playing!

#395

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:38 AM

FortKnox - please see post #112. That is all, you may go now.

#396

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:45 AM

Bride of Shrek OM - not actually worried about anyone on this blog. All are welcome, any morons who sneak in can just be hidden and ignored. Just finally decided to stop hiding who I was, thin and tattered as that veil already is. I know this is not for everyone. Anyway, I have posted my email address here several times without any untoward email/garbage.

I did get the mab*s treatment on my blog, but he was easy to delete.

#397

Posted by: armillary Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:55 AM

Bwahahaha... just found this:
http://community.livejournal.com/oltramar/245921.html

But what makes the Abbey of Cadouin interesting is not so much its buildings but its most famous relic – the alleged Sudarium Capitis or “burial head-cloth” of Christ. (Jewish funeral ritual prescribed the wrapping of the head in a cloth separate from the shroud.) The Sudarium was allegedly brought back from the First Crusade by Adhémar de Puy.

(... some notes on its history - see the link if you're interested ...)

So – despite the fact that there was an equally well-attested Sudarium at Oviedo in Spain – the annual pilgrimages were reinstated, a Confraternity of the Holy Sudarium was founded, and thousands of devout peasants were induced to trudge across country and pay for candles and masses in front of it annually for more than eighty years – until, suddenly, in 1934 the Bishop of Perigueux announced that there would be no ostension and pilgrimage that year, or any other year….

…because they had unwisely allowed it to be examined by Gaston Wiet, Director of the Museum of Arab Art in Cairo, who pointed out that not only were the silk-embroidered strips at each end fine and characteristic examples of 11th-century Fatimid work, they actually contain a Qufic inscription which, to anyone versed in Qufic, reads:
‘(In the name of God) the Compassionate, the Merciful. There is no god but Allah alone, who has no equal. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. ‘Alī is the Friend of God. May God bless them both as well as the people of their House, the pure imams,…’.
‘…Imam al-Musta ‘lī billah, Prince of the Believers, may God bless him and his pure ancestors, his honourable descendants, the sword of Islam, defender of (the imam), guarantor for the Muslim judges, guide for the missionaries of the believers Abū-l-Qasim Shahanshāh al-Musta ‘lī. May God strengthen the religion through him.’
‘ (In the name of God), the Compassionate, the Merciful. There is no god but Allah alone, who has no equal. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. ‘Alī is the Friend of God. May God bless them both as well as the people of their House, the pure imams (…) the imam Ahmad Abū l-Qasim al-Musta ‘lī billah, Prince of the Believers, may God bless him and his pure ancestors, his honourable descendants.’
(… which was ordered) to be done by the illustrious Lord al-Afdal, the amir of the army (…) al-Musta’lī (…), the sword of Islam, defender of the imam, guarantor for the Muslim judges, guide for the missionaries of the believers Abū-l-Qasim Shāhanshāh al-Musta ‘lī (…) May God strengthen the religion through him.’
Al-Mustali was the Fatimid Caliph from 1094 to 1101, and al-Afdal was his Vizier, who led the Fatimid troops from Cairo to attack the Franks at Ascalon in 1099. The inscription implies that the cloth was made expressly for him. This makes it highly likely that poor old Adhémar did indeed acquire it in the Holy Land, just as tradition stated – but makes it certain that it was spanking new at the time!
Oh, the Schadenfreude of seeing Catholic obscurantism falling flat on its face…
Pictures and more info here:
http://www.qantara-med.org/qantara4/public/show_document.php?do_id=1113
http://capelou.catholique.fr/spip.php?article32

#398

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:56 AM

Wowbagger:

Well, you're a bigger person than I've ever been. I wouldn't have gone to my father's deathbed. Maybe like BoS hoped, thoughyou can find some kind of peace. But if you don't, don't be too hard on yourself.

The reunion is going to be weird and almost certainly uncomfortable; as far as I can tell, none of the very few people who were my friends at high school (but with whom I have not stayed in contact) are going, meaning that I'll be surrounded by a whole bunch of people whose opinions of me are unlikely to have changed in twenty years.


I've never been to any of mine (and my 30th is this year). I never wanted to go--and I was popular! Is it just morbid curiosity?

#399

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:01 AM

The doctors did the best they could, but they avoided frank conversations about time lines, and prognoses.

I never do this, tried it at the beginning of my career and was almost always wrong, conveyed death sentence with grave voice only to see Patient walk out of Hospital unaided few days later, and reassured it would all go well and no, it's not time to die yet, and whoops, filled death certificate 6 hours later.
So no Josh, we don't tell because we just can't tell, and not to be mean.

Doctors know damned well when someone is going to die in a month or so

No, they don't know that, in fact they haven't the faintest clue, because they are not fucking god.See above.I am very careful to avoid any kind of prognosis, because they are almost always wrong.And in an end-of-life scenario, you do not want to be influencing patient's decisions by giving them the wrong prognosis.You just don't.

The work for Death with Dignity is important, there are big shortcomings in this area, and still lots of misconceptions about the use of painkillers in terminally ill patients.

#400

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:01 AM

Walton:

What are you doing here, young man?

Rather than being on the computer, you need to be taking care of your studies, as long as it doesn't interfere with taking care of yourself.

OUT. Now.

#401

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:17 AM

Rorschach:

See above.I am very careful to avoid any kind of prognosis, because they are almost always wrong.
I agree, but I don't think this is what he was talking about. Sure, doctors are usually wrong about solid prognoses (when they are given), but in a lot of cases, evidence exists by which a doctor can give some idea of the chances of survival. I think that's what most people look for.

Even though I am not a doctor, I routinely have to deal with the potential death of someone's family member in the field. I am very careful not to say things like "he's going to die" or "she'll be alright" because I cannot possibly know that, and it gives a false sense of either security or doom to whomever I speak. Instead, I say things like "there is a high likelihood that your husband won't survive, but we are doing everything we can to give him the best chance" or the like. It both helps family members to adjust and gives them an honest statement.

Not that I would lecture a doctor on something like this, of course. Most people really don't know what to say in these situations - even a lot of the EMT's I work with.

#402

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:48 AM

Hooray KOPD!!!

Congratulations to KOPD. Don't expect a lot of sleep for the next few weeks...

Or year and a half, possibly.

Josh - so sorry. I'm glad you were able to be there with him.

Wowbagger - let us know how the reunion goes! My 20th is also this summer, and I bailed. Because of facebook, actually. I went through a spate last year where tons of people from high school friended me, and they almost all turned out to have become Glennbeckian Jesus Freaks. I don't know if it's something in the water in town or what, but I don't have any need to go spend a few hours with any of them. The friends I care about I'll call while I'm in town, but I'm not spending $100 to go hang out with people who join groups like "pray for Obama's death/resignation".

JeffreyD - your email address doesn't lead to any search results on facebook, so your privacy is protected! Neither does your name, so you must have your settings done right so that no one can find you. :)


#403

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:55 AM

Wowbagger, I went to my father's funeral only to make sure he was dead. I thought about taking a white oak stake with me, but figured there would be too many people around.

(TMI Warning)

My father is actually an odd case. He was universally adored by all who knew him. Almost had to have a second seating at his funeral. He was a friend to hundreds, a father figure to many people. At the funeral, literally dozens of people told me how he had positively impacted on their lives, usually with tears in their eyes. I was bemused, polite, on automatic pilot. He was apparently a good father to strangers, my other siblings, everyone bar me. Odd.

I suffered physical and emotional abuse until, like BoS's ex, I left home at 15. I never have figured out why I was diffrent. Seeing him in the coffin closed the past for me some.

Wowbagger, I wish you good luck. I salute your courage.

#404

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:59 AM

Walton:

What are you doing here, young man?

Rather than being on the computer, you need to be taking care of your studies, as long as it doesn't interfere with taking care of yourself.

OUT. Now.

*shuffles meekly out of thread, suitably chastened*

#405

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:03 AM

I have befriended 4 non-australian Pharyngulites on FB so far, and plan to leave it at that, those were the ones I wanted to befriend because they really interest me....

Wowbagger - let us know how the reunion goes!

Yeah, good luck with that ! I havent spoken to my mother since 1996, and am not planning on changing that in a hurry, since I do not take well to betrayals and am rather unforgiving.

My 20th was in 2007, I didnt go since I was on the wrong continent, but probably wouldn't have gone even if I had been in town that day, these occasions are just awkward, and somewhat depressing.
One of my former best school friends is a vet in Wales and a locally known blues guitarist, maybe I go see him when I'm in the area next month.

#406

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:13 AM

Carlie, you would be welcome, of course. Well, in for a penny, in for a pound - try Jeffrey Dunford if you wish. However, Bob D. Skull is better looking and more interesting. (smile)

#407

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:21 AM

Mildly funny Onion ripoff or something :


Synthetic life form accuses God of ‘playing science’

And a nice one from "was talking to him in RL until the cleaner kicked us out" AC Grayling, via Jerry Coyne's blog :

Grayling on the Dalai Lama

#408

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:25 AM

When you come back, Walton, tell me where to go to render my verdict.

Don't act coy. You know the one I mean.

Jeffrey: I feel your pain. At least I had the comfort of knowing everyone who mattered to me thought as little of my father as I did. I can't imagine your situation.

#409

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:39 AM

To continue last night's theme :

Dresden Dolls--Port of Amsterdam

#410

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:39 AM

Aquaria - yeah, used to let it worry me more than it does now. Realized I would never know and decided to just leave it as a mystery of life. I have a decent relationship with my surviving siblings and that is good. I was able to say goodbye to my mother before she recently died, that was also good. I spent one whole day with her alone in the hospital, just talking. Not sure she heard me, but it did not matter. The thing I treasure from that day was that I was able to comforting, caring and even loving. That was important to me.

Anyway, pain and death can be teaching tools for oneself. I would just as soon the lessons would be over for a while. Once a year for the last three years is starting to get on my nerves a little. : )

Well, off for a seminar and to do some writing.

#411

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:26 AM

Congratulations, KOPD, and best wishes to the growing KOPD clan.

#412

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:50 AM

JeffreyD - I tried that, but also with middle initial, so it didn't find you. I *think* I did this time, but there were several to choose from.
Sorry to hear about the family issues; that must have been a really tough time to get through.

#413

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:02 AM

*Obsession alert*

Amanda Palmer--Hallelujah

#414

Posted by: Moggie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:36 AM

Nothing wrong with being obsessed about Amanda Palmer, either on her own or with the Dresden Dolls. Nobody can hammer the shit out of a piano quite like her.

#415

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:14 AM

KOPD:

Congratulations. Now for the fun part -- no matter what age your child is at, someone (relative, friend, acquaintance, annoying commenter) will always be around to point out that the current age (whatever it is) is easy, just wait until she hits fill-in-the-blank stage.

Josh:

You have my sympathy.

#416

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:14 AM

West Virginia is a beautiful state... too bad it's West Virginia.

#417

Posted by: Shala Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:21 AM

And now I need to get around to actually playing Portal! I bought the Orange Box on Steam back when it came out, but never played it. I know, I know, I'm a failure of a PC gamer.

did you at least go through half-life 2

#418

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:51 AM

Shala: I got up to where I had to sneak past machine gun nests on a beach. That's when I ragequit.

#419

Posted by: llewelly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:52 AM

Dr. Marcus Davis, developmental evolutionary biologist on freethinkers:
Freethinkers are monsters of ideas!
At about 11:26 :

So I think monsters are often viewed as simply being the radical fringe in appearance or behavior or in thought. That can make freethinkers and other people with big ideas monsters of ideas as well. So, in that regard monsters may be anything that may make you uncomfortable. Anything that upsets the apple cart or changes paradigms, potentially. But I like that idea of a monster.

The interview as a whole is about the evolution of development, specifically as it relates to monsters. So it's doubly on topic.

#420

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:57 AM

How utterly ridiculous to get drunk in black tie. Much more sensible to go in a cheap suit.

I don't know...a cheap suit would get messy and smelly when you spilled your drink on it whereas a black tie can be tossed over the neck and kept out of the way while drinking and spills on skin are easy to wipe up. Plus the average man is much cuter in a black tie than a cheap suit.

#421

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:03 AM

Now for the fun part -- no matter what age your child is at, someone (relative, friend, acquaintance, annoying commenter) will always be around to point out that the current age (whatever it is) is easy, just wait until she hits fill-in-the-blank stage.

Adding my congratulations to KOPD and am now ready to be the first on-line acquaintance to put in my annoying comment about age and ease of raising: It's all downhill from here. Everything past the nausea and fatigue inducing embryo stage is easier. Waking up 5 times in a night is easier. Dealing with 18 month tantrums is easier. The first adolescence of age 5-6 is easier. The true adolescence...my kid's only 7, so I can't say for sure, but my mother tells me that that was easy too. (Of course she was raising two girls with asperger's syndrome so who knows what it's like with a neurotypical.)

#422

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:13 AM

Oh yes - congratulations, KOPD!

#423

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:18 AM

Black tie is way more attractive than a cheap suit, but FWIW where I live you go out drinking in Sevens or Rock & Republic or something anyway.

Or in a Valentino T-Shirt which is about the dumbest thing I can think of but it seems to be quite trendy right now.

The serious designer tee, that is. They really do look like they could be picked up at Target. To be fair I can't tell the real ones from the fakes anyway. It's all fucking knit cotton with rose stuff on it anyway.

Although I miss the auctions and events that gave me an excuse to wear dresses. I used to put a lot of thought into my formal dress.

I haven't even bought any dresses this season. There's no point. My laptop-- it just doesn't care what I'm wearing. I could be a beast and it wouldn't matter.

#424

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:19 AM

Dianne:

I got punched (literally punched) by (((Wife))) when I said that babies were easy. When (((Boy))) was born, I was in the army. For the first 4 months, she was home alone (relatives nearby but not close) with a baby who would not sleep more than an hour and was, to put it mildly, difficult. When I got home from the army, (((Boy))) slept through the night for the first time. Considerate little guy, neh?

When (((Girl))) was born, she rarely cried. She slept through the night starting at age 8. Eight days, that is. I commented that newborns didn't seem so difficult and (jokingly) what was she complaining about? And (((Wife))) hit me. Don't know why, but she did.

#425

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:31 AM

For the first 4 months, she was home alone (relatives nearby but not close) with a baby who would not sleep more than an hour and was, to put it mildly, difficult.

Perhaps I should amend my statement...Babies are easier than pregnancy...if you have a partner there to take some of the night and early morning waking duties...and you're lucky. Two further extenuating circumstances in my case: 1. I turn out to be a poor reproducer and had about as bad a pregnancy as one can have without ever (until delivery) having anything definitively medically wrong. (For example, I didn't have hyperemesis gravidum but just enough nausea to make me end up losing weight.) 2. I went through residency in internal medicine before all the hour restrictions started. Babies are infinitely cuter than pagers and go off in the middle of the night less often, so the sleep deprivation seemed pretty mild overall.

And (((Wife))) hit me. Don't know why, but she did.

Ah, well, pregnancy and childbirth can make one grumpy. See the last panel in particular.

#426

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:35 AM

Carlie at #412 - well, I am in there somewhere, so I am told. Spousal unit set it up for me when she was here last. No idea what privacy safeguards she may have enacted. Send me an email if you wish and I will provide a site. Only if you wish of course.

Re family issues, thanks. That which does not kill us...merely pisses us off! :^} Laughing beats crying and bleeding, both of which I have done more than enough.

#427

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:36 AM

Dianne:

I should also state that (((Wife))) had morning sickness which was amazing. All day, all night, for four months. And no, the few anti-nausea drugs safe for her to use did not work. Marijuana would have probably worked. And she was in labour with (((Boy))) for 53 hours. (((Girl))) for 7 hours.

I'm always amazed that any woman is willing to get pregnant twice. There should almost be a Marlin Perkinsesque voiceover: "And once again, the female survives the mating, parturation, and birth process."

#428

Posted by: Sven DiMilo Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:41 AM

a Marlin Perkinsesque voiceover: "And once again, the female survives the mating, parturation, and birth process."

"...and while Jim cleans up the blood and placenta and fends off the enraged male, lets hear from our friends at Mutual of Omaha."

#429

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:44 AM

JeffreyD - I sent a facebook message, so if that's you you'll get it, if not someone will be quite confused. :)

iambilly - I'm pretty sure I would have hit you, too. :D

#430

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:10 AM

BoS wrote:

Try and enjoy if nothing else and again I have respect for you going.

I think that - finding aspects of it to enjoy - will be the key. I'm not going up there expecting people to fall at my feet and say 'we're sorry we completely ignored you at school; it was only years later that we realised that our football-playing boyfriends were boring assholes and that we'd rather have gone out with someone who knew what a book was.'

But what I am going to enjoy is the weather. Bowen may otherwise be an abysmal shit-hole of nightmarish proportions, but in the first week of July it has one of the most pleasant climates on the planet, esp. compared to Adelaide at that time of year.

Aquaria wrote:

Is it just morbid curiosity?

Sort of, but not really; I honestly don't care about any of them either way.

Part of it I can't really explain. I think more of it is me trying to understand myself and these people, having known me at a different time in my life, will be able to provide a context that people who know me now can't.

Carlie wrote:

Wowbagger - let us know how the reunion goes!

I will most certainly do that. I intend to write a fairly substantial blog post about it - it's one of the reasons I bought the netbook I was talking about a couple of weeks back - and I'll link to it from here once it's done.

Rorschach wrote:

I havent spoken to my mother since 1996, and am not planning on changing that in a hurry, since I do not take well to betrayals and am rather unforgiving.

My father didn't as much betray me as - without going into too much detail - be derelict in his duty as a father. Not that it was all his fault; if I get my own love of solitude from him then I suspect I'd have been exactly the same had parenthood been thrust upon me the way it had him.

So it's not as much that I hate him, or even dislike him - I resent him, yes, but that's more because I've got nearly no connection with him at all. And I think that's what this is about - giving it one last chance to find one before he dies or I lose what little interest I have left.

JeffreyD wrote:

My father is actually an odd case. He was universally adored by all who knew him. Almost had to have a second seating at his funeral.

Yeah, my father's a bit like that as well. He can walk into a bar (and he's walked into many) where he knows no-one and leave it with half a dozen new good friends. It's actually one of the barriers keeping us from relating to each other; he can't understand why I'm not like him in that regard and that throughout my whole life I've struggled to form relationships of any kind.

Then again, a lot of charismatic people are clueless like that. They just assume anyone can do what they do.

Anyway, I'm just checking in after getting home from the opening night of Tempest - and, between the effects of throwing myself around a stage for two hours and having had a few celebratory beverages, I'm quite sure it's time for bed.

#431

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:21 AM

Hmm, Wowbagger good luck with all of that. After the divorce I've gotten a chance to get to know both parents a little bit and it's interesting. I'm not saying it's great but it is, if nothing else, interesting to observe these people who once shaped my life whether they were trying to or not.

Different circumstances I am completely sure, but I'm glad you're doing it no matter how it feels. One of those things where the actual result probably isn't the important part.

As for HS, I didn't go to my recent reunion. I didn't have a bad time at HS but most of the people I care about were not in my class and I keep up with them somewhat anyway.

It would have been awkward. Also, when I left HS people were completely sure I would be famous some day. I feel like enough of a failure as it is, I don't need to be reminded that I had potential at some point by going back to some place loaded with memories of a time before I fucked up and ruined my life.

That being said I've always wished I could go to a reunion with the kids who tortured me so much back at that other school.

I actually *would* like to see them as adults, just to see what kind of people they turned out to be. No real goal there, but I'm curious.

Hope it all goes well for you!

#432

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:24 AM

People, people, two words: pawn shops.

#433

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:27 AM

@billy 427: Your wife not only got pregnant twice, she got pregnant twice by you. You must be a very good partner when you're not making faux pas about ease of raising your critters. Just be glad she's not taking the angler fish route. (Last comment added primarily to give an excuse to link to angler fish cartoon.)

#434

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:30 AM

Sorry, that was for Caine and Benjamin and anyone else with Lens Lust.

Lenses don't go stale. You can get some quite nice ones at pawn shops, especially since so many people just get a digital point-and-shoot.

I've gotten some good cameras at pawn shops but when they broke down I found that the parts for repair aren't being made any more. However, that means there's nothing lost by repairing it yourself and a little poking around can solve some problems.

#435

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:36 AM

monado:

True, but not quite so true, at least with Canon. EOS is relatively new, and EOS bodies won't mount FD lenses. (If I had gone with Nikon, that wouldn't be a problem, but I want to be able to exchange equipment with my coworker.)

BTW, some of my photos (taken with point-and-shoot cameras, or even [*gasp*] my iPhone) are here and here. Note that I didn't take all of those photos; obviously I didn't take the ones I'm in, and a couple shots of my nephew were taken by my mother (the baby's grandmother). But most of them are mine.

#436

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:37 AM

There should almost be a Marlin Perkinsesque voiceover: "And once again, the female survives the mating, parturation, and birth process."

I didn't survive my pregnancy. The fetus was stuck in an undeliverable position and then there was the chorioamnionitis with the 105F fever...fortunately I was in a hospital with 24 hour OB staff and so had a very good saving roll. Made it out in 3 days with a small dueling scar on the lower abdomen. Thus, I became one of the evil women who is perpetuating her unfit genes and destroying the species (per some of the more radical elements of the natural childbirth movement.)

#437

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:39 AM

Dianne: you and my mom!

She was in labor for something like 20 hours before they decided to save my life and cut me out of there.

But honestly anyone involved in the natural childbirth movement really needs to be involved in the no medical care movement as the irony of some one popping antibiotics for strep while bitching about women not being willing to die in childbirth is just too much.

#438

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:41 AM

My mom was in labor for 60 hours before having a C-section. I came out looking like a Conehead. (According to my dad, the first time he saw me, a couple of minutes after I was born, I was standing at attention, if you get my drift.)

#439

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:45 AM

KOPD: congratulations! May the next 18 years be easy ones.

Josh: I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm glad you were able to have this time with him, however.


Babies are strange creatures, exciting and terrifying at the same time. We had no warning when David was born (phone call: Hi, mommy! you've been selected, and your son was born last night. He's sick and needs you. How soon can you get down to Louisville?)(answer: we made 350 miles in 5 hours. I think the tires may have touched the pavement in a few places, although I can't guarantee it). Thea lived with us for the last few months of her pregnancy with Tori, but then there was an abrupted placenta, and she was born an hour and a half later in an emergency c-section. Mother and child almost died, but rallied and now are both just fine. Gads, that was 18 years ago, and I still dream about that night.

#440

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:49 AM

All three of my kids were C-sections. The first, at 37 weeks, managed to wrap the cord around his neck - twice - and so triggered labor. Because each contraction was causing his heart rate to slow, the section happened fairly quickly. He was born about 4 hours after we checked in to the hospital.

The other two, being twins, weren't a matter of *if* so much as *when* I was going to have a section. They were born at 38 weeks and were each bigger than their brother had been.

So. Hooray for medical science. If not for all those doctors, nurses, and corpsmen, there are at least four of us who might not be around today.

#441

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:51 AM

The "natural childbirth movement" sound like they'd fit in nicely with the anti-vax movement. And the raw-food movement. There seems to be a particular kind of credulous person who can be persuaded to do anything, no matter how batshit crazy, by being told it's "natural" and that the opposite is "unnatural".

The best answer to these people was, of course, provided by the consistently awesome Lord Vetinari:

'Not natural, in my view, sah. Not in favor of unnatural things.' Vetinari looked perplexed. 'You mean, you eat your meat raw and sleep in a tree?'
#442

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:53 AM

Sven:

Thank you. I was always amazed at the ease with which Perkins could segue from a life-threatening situation to insurance.

Actually, in retrospect, it makes sense. After all, it was life insurance.

Dianne:

Yeah. Twice. By me. Kinda makes me wonder what's wrong with her.

And today (not that it matters to anyone outside our family) is (((Wife))) and my 21st anniversary. Wow.

And for those who wonder, the gift for the 21st is the same as the gift for the 9th -- hot water heater.

Carlie:

Why would you have hit me? I was just pointing out how kind and considerate the spawn are. Were.

#443

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:00 PM

Walton:

Studying?

-------

(((Wife))) was in labour with (((Boy))) for 53 hours. Induced labour at 41 weeks. Damned kid didn't want to come out of there. They decided if he was still clinging to the walls of the womb after 48 hours, they would go C-section. Luckily, the labour started at hour 45 but it still took another 8 hours.

(((Wife))) still reminds (((Boy))) of that on occasion.

Speaking of natural, I always crack up when I hear a commmercial talk about some product -- all natural, no chemicals, so you know it's safe.

[rant]Bullshit. E coli is natural. So is the cyanide in an apricot pit. So is rattlesnake venom. And guess what, you idiot commercial writer, water is a chemical. Yeah, asshole, go ahead and live without chemicals. How long will you last until you exhale yourself to death?[/rant]

#444

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:01 PM

Congratulations, (((Billy))) on that milestone. And the gift? Makes me wonder if you know my husband. . .

#445

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:04 PM

Woot! 21 years is a long time. Congrats on not driving each other crazy :P

#446

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:10 PM

Are we making Walton study?

#447

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:15 PM

Katrina:

Well, we shower together, so one could argue that the lack of cold showers would be to her benefit.

Ol'Greg:

Thanks. What makes you think we haven't?

Kevin:

I was going by the statement Walton made that if we found hime commenting we were supposed to tell him to back to studying. As far as I know, he has not rescinded it, so . . . .

#448

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:16 PM

On a slightly photo-related note: Can someone recommend a theme for Gallery 2 that doesn't look like ass? All of the included themes suck. I'd like the functionality of Flickr, if that's possible (AJAX-based editing of names/descriptions), but if not, oh well.

#449

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:34 PM

I dunno. I just use flickr and I do a terrible job of keeping up with it!

Hey but I'll piggyback off of that. Does anyone have tips on getting a good print online? I'd like to include some photographs in an upcoming show and I think I'd like to have them mounted to plex. Too much trouble for me to do myself.

If anyone knows a company they get good results from I'd *love* to hear about it.

#450

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:40 PM

Maybe it wasn't a "Your're Next" look but a "That's How It's Done" look: they are pretty similar, because of the pissed-offedness of the subtext in the latter: "Why do have to do all the work?"

#451

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:47 PM

Josh,
I am so sorry about your loss. He sounds like a wonderful person.

#452

Posted by: Shala Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:47 PM

I've been fairly interested in the new ad at the top of the page, the one of the direction the ballerina spins in.

I see her moving clockwise, but if I look at her foot I can get her to change to go whatever direction she wants.

Anyone else notice it?

#453

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:53 PM

Rabbit may be too high in protein (previous comment). However, I'm sure that rabbit is better than nothing when you're starving and you can eat the visceral fat to round out your diet.

Farley Mowat supposedly made the same discovery about mice when he was experimenting with What Wolves Eat. To stay healthy and overcome hunger, he had to eat the mice whole--skinned but whole. If he removed the viscera there wasn't enough fat.

#454

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:56 PM

Ol'Greg: I'm already paying $120 per year for web hosting; I don't want to spend $25 more for photo hosting, especially when I can do it myself. (I have a free Flickr account, but for anything serious, I'd need Pro.)

#455

Posted by: csreid Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 12:59 PM

Ok, this is important. I just found this and I feel that it's necessary to tell everyone I come in contact with about it.

#456

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:11 PM

Walton...

Did I see you darken Pharyngula, after my specific instructions not to do that?

You're awakening my Mistress Aquaria persona. She is not someone you want to meet.

Unless you're into that sort of thing.

#457

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:13 PM

@Aquaria:

Unless you're into that sort of thing.

I am.

#458

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:14 PM

Are we making Walton study?

See #147.

#459

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:17 PM

What have you done to deserve Mistress Aquaria? ;)

And how old are you?

j/k

Sort of.

#460

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:21 PM

(((Billy)))-

Well, we shower together, so one could argue that the lack of cold showers would be to her benefit.
As I said earlier. . .

#461

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:29 PM

@Aquaria:

Oh, I've probably... umm...

I left the toilet seat up *shrug*

And I'm 26. I only look like I'm 16.

#462

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:32 PM

From what little I've read, it's not that rabbit is high in protein, it's that rabbit is so low in fat. The body actually starves from lack of fat, even if the person eats their fill.

#463

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:44 PM

I left the toilet seat up *shrug*

Sheesh, I'd wear myself out if I tried to punish every man who did that. You're gonna have to try harder.

And I'm 26. I only look like I'm 16.

Oh dear. I like 'em young, yes, but I also like 'em legal in age and looks.

I guess I don't have anything to say about that, though.

I got tagged underage at 40.

At a rock concert (Adema).

#464

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 1:51 PM

@Aquaria:

Youthful good looks tends to run in my family. Both of my grandmothers are in their 80s, and very easily could pass for late 60s. My parents are both 50, could pass for 30.

Of course it's not so fun when you're trying to get a date and everyone who you run into thinks you're a teenager. *haha*

#465

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:13 PM

Speaking of natural, I always crack up when I hear a commmercial talk about some product -- all natural, no chemicals, so you know it's safe.

This drives me freaking insane. I am part of a natural dyes group (i.e. atheistic ladies who like to boil random plants and dunk sheep fur in the brew), and whenever we do demonstrations, several idiots talk about how nice it is to see people using those safe natural non-toxic dyes as opposed to those icky artificial ones. That's when I point out that the active ingredient in logwood (a wonderful black dye - black is pretty hard to get using plant dyes) is called "hematoxylin." When I'm teaching a kids' class, I teach them all the word "orthogonal" and by the end of the class, they can all explain why natural and safe are orthogonal.

More later - I just heard from the overheated biking boy scouts, requesting the maternal sag wagon.

#466

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:16 PM

@Rorschach:

So no Josh, we don't tell because we just can't tell, and not to be mean.

Oh, I know they're not trying to be mean, and they're not god. I also know doctors care about their patients, and do the best they can. I'm also a little overwrought, admittedly.

But when patients ask for some sort of time range, even something general, answers like, "well, it could be days, months, years" are not helpful. Yes, that's a direct quote. Liver cancer patients who weigh 90 pounds don't have "years," and when they ask for an educated guess on how much time they have left, they're asking so they can make reasonable decisions about how and where to spend that time comfortably. Sure, the patient knows he probably doesn't have much time, but when he's asking the doctor so he can plan for his remaining time, I don't think it's too much to ask of a doctor that he not completely equivocate.

#467

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:21 PM

Unfortunately, that's because you're a guy. If you're a woman it's positively beneficial (if creepy) to look very young. I had more men 40-65 asking me out when I was 18-25, and looked 16, than I had from 25- 35, and looked 20.

And I highly doubt you look 16, anyway. Maybe it's my age, but people under 25 always look their age to me these days. Then again, I never thought Opie passed as a teenager on Happy Days, either.

#468

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:25 PM

Shit--where'd my quoted stuff go??? 467 was for Kevin @ 464.

Preview is my friend. Preview is my friend. Preview is my friend.

#469

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:29 PM

Mattir:

What do you use for a mordant with the natural dyes?

(The only natural dye I've ever used was onion skins for Easter eggs as a kid -- makes a nice brown. Kinda the colour of brown eggs. Oh well.)

#470

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:29 PM

Congratulations to Sili and KOPD!

I've eaten venison and rabbit without a problem. (I don't think I'd willingly eat cat or dog meat, simply due to the cannibalism taboo.)

Actually, rabbit is the closest you've come to cannibalism. Deer, cats, and dogs are all equally far away as each other.

...on the family tree.

My mom has eaten it obligingly many times and we're no strangers to Latin or Asian foods. Hell the woman lived in Korea for years.

Yet she continues to taste only the soap and say it ruins everything. My father too. How the hell did I end up liking it? lol

Wonders of genetics I guess.

Apparently not. Whether you can taste it at all is genetic.

But when you dislike beer everyone wants to buy you one, or get you to try this shot with beer or whatever.

And I drink it all. Because I'm polite like that.

See, that's what I don't get about peer pressure. That I don't drink beer is simply a fact of nature. People can't just be in denial about it. :-)

I think I've tried grapefruit juice and found it very bitter. Broccoli, on the other hand, is quite good if (and only if) blended to make a soup, with a bit of butter; it's the texture that is the problem for me.

I like to insist that I'm a super taster, but I think I just really like bland food. If it's spicier than a bell pepper, it doesn't go in my mouth.

That's because "heat" isn't a kind of taste. It's pain. Literally. Capsaicin attaches to pain receptors. That's why I can feel "heat" on the outside of my lips, in extreme cases* halfway down to the chin.

Similarly, menthol attaches to a certain kind of receptor for cool temperatures.

* I think that was genuine tabasco. It had warnings on the bottle like "do not ever get it in your eyes" and stuff. After reading these, I smeared a tiny quantity, just visible, on my pinkie finger and licked that... washing it off my lips only spread it.

the asteroid/comet that killed the dinosaurs

Asteroid. There are plenty of hints from the chemical composition of the worldwide boundary layer and stuff.

congratulations on the brand new spawn, KOPD; I hope you remembered to arrange caffeine-delivery-service for you and the mother :-p

Caffeine appears to be rather horrible for babies. It's now strongly discouraged for pregnant and breastfeeding women.

I don't know what the effect is supposed to be, but I wouldn't want a little crying baby to be hyperactive and sleepless anyway! :-)

I hope both parents can stay home for a few weeks so they can afford to sleep whenever the baby sleeps.

Jewish funeral ritual prescribed the wrapping of the head in a cloth separate from the shroud.

So... that alone means the Turin Shroud is fake, right?

I've never been to any of mine (and my 30th is this year). I never wanted to go--and I was popular! Is it just morbid curiosity?

I just had my 10-year highschool reunion yesterday. Toward the end of school, I still didn't really have any friends, but was able to talk to most or all... so the meeting was fairly interesting, though only about half of the invited came.

I don't know...a cheap suit would get messy and smelly when you spilled your drink on it whereas a black tie can be tossed over the neck and kept out of the way while drinking and spills on skin are easy to wipe up. Plus the average man is much cuter in a black tie than a cheap suit.

<rolling on floor and silently laughing>

Congratulations, Walton. Welcome to the club. The mad, mad women of Pharyngula have noticed you.

I haven't even bought any dresses this season. There's no point.

Buying clothes every year? What a concept :-D

#471

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:33 PM

Kevin, didn't you post a pic some time or can I just see you in my minds eye for some reason?

Well, I remember you looking pretty nice so it works to your advantage in this case! lol

#472

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:37 PM

Oh and don't complain. I got called "ma'am" in the hallways in high school, and was almost always mistaken for the TA in college...

the only good news is that I seemed to have hit 30 by 13 and lingered there. If I continue to stay there as I actually reach and pass 30 I'll consider it a fair trade!

But as it is I suspect people will begin complimenting me on how I look for "my age" long before I'm that age.

Painful because I do some times find younger people cute... but I don't like feeling like a weird old leper for it!

If I looked younger I might enjoy it :P

#473

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:40 PM

So does he look 16, OG?

Inquiring minds and all that!

#474

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:41 PM

@Aquaria:

Well, I don't look as old as I am. About the only 'mannish' part of me is the fact I've got a strong jawline. Otherwise I have a kind of youthful look all over, especially when I shave (which I did - no more beard and mustache, they get annoying quickly. Although on the flip side, having to shave every other day is also annoying.) Of course to compound on that is the fact I've got a little puny stick-boy build.

I also don't quite act mature, either. One of the lamentations of my Christian upbringing was that I wasn't really allowed to grow up. I was in a state of ignorance that I never quite paid attention to the important parts of reality. (Tacked onto that is the fact I'm still a virgin, and have no 'mojo' when it comes to being bold enough to ask someone out.)

Ahh well, I'm perfectly happy with who I am - a young-looking, feminine-personality, bisexual atheist.

#475

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:45 PM

I dunno what 16 necessarily looks like. I'd have said 18 or so if I had to guess. But this could all be a massive hallucination brought on by a night of heavy drinking and way too much online/vs/meatspace social interaction.

If so, I dreamed of you Kevin... be fucking flattered :P

#476

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:45 PM

@Ol'Greg:

Haven't posted a pic on Pharyngula, but my name links to my (horribly under-updated) blog - with a picture on the side. It's tiny, though, and pre-shave. I might post a bigger post-shave tonite if you ask nicely :)

#477

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:48 PM

Yeah, a tiny blurry picture is what I saw. So that's probably it. I click on most people's names at some point so that's probably how.

I love pics!

But I doubt you're as hot as Sili in his sailormoon outfit ;)

#478

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:53 PM

@Ol'Greg:

But I doubt you're as hot as Sili in his sailormoon outfit ;)

... now I have to see this one.

On a similar note: I still have yet to make my costume for cosplaying as Setzer Gabbiani, damned if you can't find a floor length black coat.

#479

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:58 PM

I will ask nicely! I know it's personal opinion, but I think at least 90% of men who have mustaches would look better without them.

#480

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 2:58 PM

Congratulations, Walton. Welcome to the club. The mad, mad women of Pharyngula have noticed you.

I always knew it would be so.

*beams proudly at the special dumpling of awesome*

Just don't forget that I always believed in you! You make me... so... proud.

*dries her eyes with a lace kerchief streaked with mascara and Guerlain Insolence De Rouge*

#481

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:07 PM

Dude--I just looked at that pic. You do not look 16, or even 18. Not in that one. And you are definitely not unattractive. What's wrong with the women where you live? Sheesh.

And if you think you're skinny, take a look at this guy. He has millions of people around the world wanting him. My husband is the same build, and has hussies wishing he'd notice them. You should see the moon-eyes they give him.

And what's this about no boldness? Aren't you the one who jumped in front of me and to make me notice you? Didn't it work?

#482

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:13 PM

Kevin:

It's tiny, though, and pre-shave. I might post a bigger post-shave tonite if you ask nicely :)
Cute! You have the same sort of hot looks that Freddy Mercury did. (And no, I am not that old - only 30, thank you very much. People swear I look in my early 20s. Do you agree?)

#483

Posted by: Sili, The Unknown Virgin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:14 PM

washing it off my lips only spread it.
Yeah, you need fats to remove capsaicin. Apparently that's why Indian food is often served with yoghurt.
So... that alone means the Turin Shroud is fake, right?
On the contrary. It just makes it more miraculous. I believe that separate headcloth is kept as a relic in Spain somewhere. One of the shroudies even got reproductions of that and the Shroud to show that the blood stains match between the two.

Congrats, KOPD! My condolences, Josh.
Would it be bad form to ask you to compare notes to test for reïncarnation?

#484

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:14 PM

@Aquaria:

Haha - well, I don't look so young in that picture because I've got the facial hair. I also never said I wasn't attractive, I just have no 'mojo.' I get flustered and nervous around people I'm attracted to - and never have been bold enough to go up to anyone with the ability to say "hey, you're cute. Want to go out sometime?"

Remarkably, I'm built almost exactly the same as that guy whose picture you posted. I'm 6'almost-1 and weigh about 140 pounds. Not athletic at all, skinny-skinny (oh and I have a 36 inch leg measurement, freakin' half of me is from waist to heel.)

#485

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:15 PM

I will ask nicely! I know it's personal opinion, but I think at least 90% of men who have mustaches would look better without them.

Having been moustachioed, intermittently, for the last couple of years, I've heard a lot of differing opinions on the subject. I personally think I look better (older, at least) with facial hair, but quite a lot of people irl told me I looked better when I shaved it off. (I've since grown it back in more restrained form.) Some people love moustaches, some people hate them. :-)

#486

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:17 PM

@deriamis:

You don't really look 30 - mid-20s, though I would definitely say.

And thanks for the compliment about Freddy - now if only I could sing like him *haha*)

#487

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:19 PM

So we have to see a picture now, Walton, so as to unfairly judge you on your facial hair. :)

#488

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:20 PM

Aquaria:

I just looked at that pic. You do not look 16, or even 18. Not in that one. And you are definitely not unattractive. What's wrong with the women where you live? Sheesh.
And the men. Seriously, what is wrong with them?

And if you think you're skinny, take a look at this guy. He has millions of people around the world wanting him. My husband is the same build, and has hussies wishing he'd notice them. You should see the moon-eyes they give him.
Personally, I would take Kevin's looks over your husband's - no offense to either yourself or your husband.
#489

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:23 PM

So we have to see a picture now, Walton, so as to unfairly judge you on your facial hair. :)

Feel free to add me on Facebook. (I don't want to post a direct link to my profile, but I'm now fb-friends with several Pharyngulites, so you should be able to track me down if you go hunting... if in doubt, send me an email, walton_m AT hotmail DOT co DOT uk.)

#490

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:23 PM

Eh... looks aren't where it's all at.

While I'm neurotic about mine (I admit it!) I also recognize that I'm pretty damned aloof really.

Even if I'm completely interested in some one I tend to avoid getting too close. I'm terrified of rejection but more importantly I'm just terrified.

#491

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:27 PM

Kevin:

I get flustered and nervous around people I'm attracted to - and never have been bold enough to go up to anyone with the ability to say "hey, you're cute. Want to go out sometime?"
Shyness is sorts cute, but I tell you now that if you said exactly that to me, your answer would be yes - pre-marriage, of course. So...just say exactly that. The only no's I would expect you to receive would be from those in relationships. And those who don't like the Freddy Mercury sort of looks. (Do you know many of those? I don't. Go for it!)

And thanks for the compliment about Freddy - now if only I could sing like him *haha*)
Who cares? As long as you look as hot as he does and can do what he reputedly could do between the sheets, it doesn't matter if you can sing like him. And if you are sexually inexperienced...well, hot looks and sexual inexperience only inspires people to teach you.
#492

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:28 PM

A part of me wants this dress.

http://1.images-production.ideeli.com/attachments/13621550/BET-3z9j-003-1_420x310.jpg

I can't decide if I could pull it off or not, and I could probably find something cheaper on modcloth anyway.

But I love that color.

#493

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:32 PM

And if you are sexually inexperienced...well, hot looks and sexual inexperience only inspires people to teach you.

QFT. Really. There's something appealing about newness, and as a person who lost their virginity in a less than ideal way you never know... the person you're with could be happy to be present at a moment they never got to witness :P

Uh.

Please nobody think I'm hitting on them though.

*feels awkward*

#494

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:34 PM

@deriamis:

I'm very sexually inexperienced - I've kissed one person in my entire life who wasn't family (real kiss I mean, had a few cheek pecks.) Christianity totally makes romance a nightmare when you're afraid that doing more than holding hands is a quick road straight to Sinville.

The most important thing, I guess is actually getting out and going for it. I have some time on my hand usually, and I'm part of an atheist get-together group, so I should go out on one of their events more often. Just always get too busy with work-related stuff.

#495

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:34 PM

On the subject of natural dyes:

Cellulose and protein fibers need to be mordanted differently - cellulose takes a 3-4 day multi-step process, while wool is pretty quick. Silk can take a while, just because it gets dull if it's exposed to excessive heat, so it's better to let the silk sit overnight. Anyway, for wool I've used aluminum sulfate, copper sulfate, iron sulfate, tin chloride, and oxalic acid from pokeweed or rhubarb leaves. Our dye group is going to do a potassium dichromate mordanting day once we get the right respirators and gloves - it takes a truly tiny amount of chrome to mordant and the toxic waste disposal guys tend to laugh at us when we show up with our gallon of chrome-contaminated water for disposal, but we are going to be excessively cautious given the toxicity of hexavalent chrome.

I've used a bunch of different dyes and have a great notebook of dye samples - by using different premordants and aftertreatments, I can get dozens of different shades out of one dyepot. I'll post pictures sometime soon on my FB page - it's pretty impressive to see the variety of colors and think that every piece of yarn went into the pot and came out at the same time.

Some of the dyes I've used: madder, cochineal, onion skin, fustic, goldenrod, coreopsis, beech, willow, birch, osage orange, black walnut, oak, wild grape, marigold, pokeberry, hibiscus, sumac, azalea, and japanese knotweed. I'm going to do a display of dyes from plants that are exotic invasives sometime, having discovered last year that japanese indigo is in the same genus as lady's thumb, which is an exotic and annoying weed here. I managed to get a small amount of indigo out of lady's thumb leaves and was thrilled.

Indigo is a bit different from most vegetable dyes because it basically coats the fiber and thus doesn't require a mordant - the different shades obtained are due to the lengths or number of dips and whether the fiber is dyed with something else before or after (that's the only way to get a true grass green).

#496

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:36 PM

Just popping in for a sec.

I hope both parents can stay home for a few weeks so they can afford to sleep whenever the baby sleeps.
She's got at least 8 weeks. I have no paid time off to take (changed jobs earlier this year and could not start accruing vacation for 90 days). I'm taking 3 days without pay, though I'm going in for an hour or two today to tie up some loose ends since it'll be another 4 days (3-day weekend plus tomorrow) before I get back.
#497

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:42 PM

Josh OSG: my sincere condolences on the loss of your friend.

I've also been meaning to try and get in touch with you by email - I will be in Burlington tomorrow, and would like to buy you a drink if you're around. And since my wife will be with me, you needn't fear that I will come on to you, neither.

#498

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:43 PM

Walton! Away with you! I'll finally go back to work, too!

================

Forgot to mention I had more of that carrot/red lentil soup today.

we are going to be excessively cautious given the toxicity of hexavalent chrome.

Good on you. It's mordant on pretty much everything, not just cloth.

#499

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:45 PM

Personally, I would take Kevin's looks over your husband's - no offense to either yourself or your husband.

That's not my husband. My husband looks like white man's Jesus: Long blonde hair, beard, blue eyes.

#500

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:46 PM

(Stupid me. Walton has been gone for 20 minutes.)

#501

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:47 PM

(Stupid me. Walton has been gone for 20 minutes.)

That's what you think... :-P

#502

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:48 PM

Ol'Greg:

Please nobody think I'm hitting on them though.
*feels awkward*
Why not? Quite a bit of the human experience is sexual. I happen not to believe that sex need be any more than a fun activity shared between friends. Hit away, my friend.

God, I'm a slut.

Kevin:

Christianity totally makes romance a nightmare when you're afraid that doing more than holding hands is a quick road straight to Sinville.
I used to be that sort of Christian. Believe me, you'll get better with time. Sinville isn't such a bad place, you know - rather fun, actually.

The most important thing, I guess is actually getting out and going for it.
That's how it works, yes. I can tell you from experience that exuding a shy sort of confidence is about the hottest thing ever for people who are looking.

God, I am a slut.

Just always get too busy with work-related stuff.
You know what they say about all work and no play, right?
#503

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:48 PM

Walton, I saw that.

Out.

You're very bad.

#504

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:51 PM

@all:

Kay - work is over. I'll go home now and get a picture of myself post-shave, probably still in suit (no tie, argh hate at tie.)

#505

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:52 PM

Walton, I saw that.

Out.

You're very bad.

*runs away giggling madly*

#506

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:54 PM

Why not? Quite a bit of the human experience is sexual. I happen not to believe that sex need be any more than a fun activity shared between friends. Hit away, my friend. God, I'm a slut.

Haha, yes but unwanted attention can make people feel uncomfortable and trapped. It can also make a person who'd be willing to be a friend with no sexual involvement retract that willingness.

I guess I'm hypersensitive because I do find myself on the other side of that so much and sometimes wonder if anyone *actually* likes me :/

*cue soap opera music*

#507

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:56 PM

Aquaria:

That's not my husband. My husband looks like white man's Jesus: Long blonde hair, beard, blue eyes.
I didn't think he was - I was more talking about the body type. Though the long blond hair does more than make up for it for me.

Sorry, dear. I am a slut. ::slaps his own face::

#508

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 3:57 PM

Walton, you little devil. You have mail btw.

#509

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:04 PM

Hey, don't apologize. I'm even sluttier than you: I like 'em tall to short, skinny to not perfectly in shape, skin color immaterial.

If a guy is smart and fun, I notice. When I'm single, I'm all over him. LOL

#510

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:08 PM

David Marjanović-

It's definitely an asteroid? I didn't know that. I was under the impression that it was still pretty undecided- and I had Walter Alvarez as a professor last semester.

He's the best professor I've ever had btw, and I get all starry eyed around him :D

Also, I think there should be a regulars of Pharyngula facebook group so we can find each other.

I'm also really into pale skinny guys with very little muscle definition, and I think it has to do with some instinct to find guys least likely to be able to overpower me, as a small, frail 100 pound female with poor health and atrocious balance.

#511

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:09 PM

Ol'Greg:

Haha, yes but unwanted attention can make people feel uncomfortable and trapped. It can also make a person who'd be willing to be a friend with no sexual involvement retract that willingness.
Very true. I have experienced that withdrawal before, and I wonder at it. I don't require sexuality in my friendships; in fact, I don't even particularly desire it. I just don't define things for other people anymore. I simply try to be as honest as I can be with how I feel and how others feel about me.

#512

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:09 PM

Josh, I'm sorry you've lost your friend and mentor, but it sounds like you did a wonderfully supportive job in a difficult time.

And in other gender-role-culture-war news, I've had conversations with 2 other moms in our Boy Scout troop who have said that they feel like their efforts at doing stuff with the troop is being rebuffed. Given that one of these is an "Obama is Hitler" teapartier and one is a Catholic youth minister, I've concluded that none of the hostility I've felt from the troop leaders is due to my liberal politics and all of it is due to the problem of having internally situated reproductive organs. Given that it's the old fogey leaders and not the boys who seem to have the problem, revolution is pending...

A middle age chubby woman in a Boy Scout uniform is truly a sight to see, and now there'll be THREE of us. *giggles*

#513

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:13 PM

Please nobody think I'm hitting on them though.

Please, nobody think I'm not hitting on you.

Unless you're made uncomfortable by that thought. Then I'm not hitting on you.

(But still probably flirting a little.)

#514

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:14 PM

Aquaria:

Hey, don't apologize. I'm even sluttier than you: I like 'em tall to short, skinny to not perfectly in shape, skin color immaterial.
That wasn't an apology. I was just slapping myself out of wanting your husband, whom I have never seen. (Yes, I am that slutty.)

If a guy is smart and fun, I notice. When I'm single, I'm all over him. LOL
Problem is, I do that even when I am not single. At least my husband thinks it's hot when I do that.
#515

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:16 PM

I didn't think he was - I was more talking about the body type.

The thought of waking up next to that body type, when this is the face that goes with it, more than makes up for it to me.

#516

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:18 PM

Aquaria, what's the verdict? :-)

#517

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:22 PM

I simply try to be as honest as I can be with how I feel and how others feel about me.

Much more admirable. I'm often in the position of watching some one I'd love to be with hook up with some one else and thinking... "well if it were meant to be it would be" all the while knowing I don't believe in that philosophically anyway.

#518

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:24 PM

Please, nobody think I'm not hitting on you.

I'm... confused?

Eh--

Thanks?

#519

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:30 PM

Walton, you are not ugly. You sort of remind me of--I can't think of his name. British actor--shit. What's his name?

#520

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:31 PM

Carly:

I will ask nicely! I know it's personal opinion, but I think at least 90% of men who have mustaches would look better without them.

You are assuming that all men wear facial hair in order to increase mating opportunities or because it looks good. Not at all. Some (like me) wear facial hair for health reasons. I have a mole on my chin which, when sliced by a razor, leads a trail of blood down to my chest. I also have three places on my upper lip which can be easily cut open. So in order to avoid banaids, transfusions, the whole trip to the hospital thing after keeling over from blood loss, I sport a circle beard.

Walton:

*runs away giggling madly*

Am I the only one here mildly freaked out at the thought of a giggling lawyer? Well, okay, giggling proto-lawyer?

#521

Posted by: MrFire Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:32 PM

Hmmkay, testing Comic Sans, don't mind me.

*blink blink*

Sweet, it works!

#522

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:34 PM

Walton reminds me of a younger Jude Law.

Seriously. Not. Ugly.

#523

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:35 PM

call me shallow, but I look at the pictures of those lovely faces and hot bods, and all I can think is: yes, but can they hold an intelligent conversation?

I'm boring that way.

#524

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:35 PM

*runs away giggling madly*

Am I the only one here mildly freaked out at the thought of a giggling lawyer? Well, okay, giggling proto-lawyer?

I think it's cute, but then I like it when guys are youthful, lol.

#525

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:38 PM

Aquaria:

The thought of waking up next to that body type, when this is the face that goes with it, more than makes up for it to me.
::melt::

iambilly:

Am I the only one here mildly freaked out at the thought of a giggling lawyer? Well, okay, giggling proto-lawyer?
::mildly freaks out::

#526

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:39 PM

Aquaria:

No, not the thought of a man giggling (hell, been known to do it myself (often when being nibbled by, er, nevermind)). But the thought of a giggling proto-lawyer. Giggling lawyers is, in my book, right up there with smiling sergeants -- something you do not want to see if E4 or below.

#527

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:41 PM

Why is it that truly beautiful people, such as you linked to Aquaria, kind of freak me out.

I'd rather wake up next to this.

#528

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:43 PM

Well, if I spend any more time on this thread right now, the proto-lawyer-dumpling-of-awesome will never emerge from his cocoon and blossom into a real lawyer. On account of the fact that I have exams next week for which I need to study.

But thanks, Aquaria and Ol'Greg. I'm very, very flattered. :-)

#529

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:43 PM

call me shallow, but I look at the pictures of those lovely faces and hot bods, and all I can think is: yes, but can they hold an intelligent conversation?

Sometimes, yes, they can. It's shallow to automatically assume they can't, simply because they're beautiful.

#530

Posted by: Sili, The Unknown Virgin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:45 PM

Haha, yes but unwanted attention can make people feel uncomfortable and trapped. It can also make a person who'd be willing to be a friend with no sexual involvement retract that willingness.
Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt.
#531

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:49 PM

Well, to each their own, OG.

And you're welcome, Walton. Stop being so hard on yourself!

#532

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:49 PM

Sometimes, yes, they can. It's shallow to automatically assume they can't, simply because they're beautiful.

QFT.

You just reminded me of a man who was sitting in my living room and not but minutes after congratulating my partner on acquiring an attractive woman launched into a discussion with me that terminated in the observation that people are always either good looking or intelligent.

I sat for a second chewing on the obvious and the best thing I could think of to say was, "Interesting... which one were you again?"

#533

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 4:52 PM

Sometimes, yes, they can. It's shallow to automatically assume they can't, simply because they're beautiful.

true, which is why I ask the question - I didn't say I answered it in the negative.

all I was saying is that I find minds much sexier than bodies - which is good, because the sexiest man I know (my husband, that is) is overweight and balding - but is terrifyingly intelligent and has patience with my less-than-terrifyingly-intelligent self.

Kevin, if you don't mind goth-girls (or, more truthfully, j-rock style), I'll introduce you to my 18yo daughter. I think you'd get along.

#534

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:01 PM

Sometimes, yes, they can [hold an intelligent conversation]. It's shallow to automatically assume they can't, simply because they're beautiful.

I am a perfect example of that.

At least, I'm not ugly. Not too ugly, anyway. And though I might not be able to hold an intelligent conversation, I can, while listening to others. at least laugh at all the right spots. And some of the wrong spots. So it's close.

So I'm a perfect example.

#535

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:07 PM

There we go - for those who want to see shaved me:

http://i47.tinypic.com/21mi4nl.jpg

#536

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:09 PM

I started looking 30 when I was about 16, hard life may have helped at that point. I have continued to look about 10-15 years older than I really am since then. Right now I don't look a day over 70.

Damn, now I have to spend time hunting for Walton's awesome dumpling Facebook page. Incurably curious, especially as he stiffed me getting together every time I offered. I mean, I know I am scary, but jayzus.

#537

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:09 PM

@Becca:

Goth-girl, eh? Is she smart?

#538

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:12 PM

Incurably curious, especially as he stiffed me getting together every time I offered. I mean, I know I am scary, but jayzus.

LOL!

Well he wouldn't come visit me in Paris either.

*sniiifs*

Kevin, you look totally different in that picture! Not in a bad way or anything. Now I'm at a loss as to who you remind me of.

#539

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:13 PM

@Ol'Greg:

A white Prince? (That's what I get ALL the time)

#540

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:14 PM

Right now I don't look a day over 70.

Weird. I look much younger than I am. I'm 43 (as of this coming Sunday), and people think I'm 30, max.

I can't say I haven't lived fairly hard, either. So that's not it.

#541

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:14 PM

Incurably curious, especially as he stiffed me getting together every time I offered.

Sorry. :-( I did want to, but life repeatedly intervened.

I do, however, pledge that I will, one day, actually manage to attend a Pharyngula meetup, despite my dismal record of failure in this respect so far.

#542

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:16 PM

Ol'Greg, you win. (LOL) You are at least a pleasant vision so he has no excuse not to visit with you. Bad Walton, bad Walton!

#543

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:18 PM

@Kevin:

From a completely hetero adult male: you are quite handsome. Not like a white Prince at all (though he is good-looking too).

#544

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:18 PM

@Kevin - a lot smarter than she thinks she is. She's currently doing a program where she'll get her high school diploma in 5 years... and get an Associates of Arts degree at the same time. She could have done it in 4 years, but we're letting her take things a bit easy. She loves biology, but may not be able to go into it as a field because she can't get past chemistry (had a bad teacher, and that's set up a presumption of failure in her mind)

She's not into anime, in spite of her looks. I *think* her photo on FB is public, if you look for a Tori Clayton at Washtenaw Technical Middle College.

#545

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:19 PM

So as of today

Endless thread = Hot or not?

#546

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:22 PM

@ Kevin (again) - I'd like to see a picture of you smiling!

and Tori would kill me if she knew I was trying to set her up, even in jest. oh, well. She doesn't read Pharyngula, so I'm safe.

#547

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:22 PM

Kevin, that picture makes you look









26.

Congratulations. :P

#548

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:23 PM

It's hot where I am OG.

But then it usually is.

#549

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:23 PM

You are at least a pleasant vision

Hehe... to you.

I might be like cilantro for all you know.

#550

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:24 PM

@Becca:

Hum. She's pretty, too :)

#551

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:25 PM

Ol'Greg @545

So as of today

Endless thread = Hot or not?
lol. I approve. I still can't find you guys. I think I found Brownian, if that's him on the Pharyngula fan page.

#552

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:27 PM

@Becca:

Pictures of me smiling always look too posed, that's the problem. They never look natural.

#553

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:27 PM

blockquote fail. wtf.

#554

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:27 PM

Carlie at #429 - "JeffreyD - I sent a facebook message, so if that's you you'll get it, if not..."

Carlie - nothing in my Facebook msg folder. Think Grateful Dead when looking for the correct JeffreyD. Or just forget about it, which is easier as you have already wasted too much time. :^}

#555

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:32 PM

LOL!

Well he wouldn't come visit me in Paris either.

*sniiifs*

Awww, I'm sorry. :-( In my defence, I did have exams to prepare for. And no money to travel.


#556

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:32 PM

Kevin reminds me of a soap opera actor from a while back.

Heck he might have gone mainstream by now.

Trust me, Kevin, the singles around you are dying for you to ask them out, and have probably been resorting to blatant attempts to catch your eye. Good thing I wasn't in their midsts, because I would have done the smart thing: ask outright if you were married, and then offer to get to know each other over dinner.

#557

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:34 PM

On second thought, I don't think that's Brownian. I'm just an idiot. Oh well.

#558

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:34 PM

@MrFire:

I've also been meaning to try and get in touch with you by email - I will be in Burlington tomorrow, and would like to buy you a drink if you're around


Oh, how cool. My email is spokesgay at gmail dot com. It would have to be in the evening, as I have a lot of work to catch up on during the day, but I'd love to have a drink with you and your wife.

#559

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:36 PM

Josh, *hug*

and

We need to change the law, and the culture, so that dying people can choose their own time, in their own way.

This. So very This.

#560

Posted by: JeffreyD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:37 PM

False modesty Ol'Greg. Whatever your self concept, and I concur that is most important, your are objectively pleasant upon which to look.

Need to work on blog a bit. Check back later for another episode of "Hawt...or...Nawt?".

#561

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:38 PM

Haley--Brownian is wearing a cowboy hat and looks a bit like he should be the cover of a Neil Young album.

I'm on there under my name. Which you can get by clicking on my nym.

Easy peasy.

#562

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:39 PM

@ Kevin - I think she is pretty, too.

What you need is a picture of you being relaxed, smiling genuinely. but (as one person who hates posed pictures to another), I know that that's hard to do.

btw, I just started using "If the universe is god then science is that god's theology.." as my sig line, and got a huffy note back about scientism from my woo-friend.

#563

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:41 PM

@Ol'Greg:

You're very pretty - so "Hot"

#564

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:42 PM

It's ok Walton. If you ever find yourself in Texas while I'm still here I won't hold it against you (and you'll need friends to drive you around), but I have a feeling I'll have been through most of Europe before that happened :P

Oh, and fuck off please.

#565

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:46 PM

You're very pretty - so "Hot"

Pfft. Lovefest.

http://erinmachniak.blogspot.com/2010/03/inspired.html

There's one for the beauty pageant.

All right ppl, thanks for being awesome today! Time for me to go to dinner.

#566

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:47 PM

@Becca:

Totally right. I have a nice smile, but only really comes out when I'm laughing. Other than that small time, all of my smiles are just faked.

#567

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:50 PM

So...just say exactly that. The only no's I would expect you to receive would be from those in relationships.
and, you know, people who are massively creeped out by strangers telling them they're cute, or otherwise offering unsolicited commentary on one's looks.

Unless you're planning on asking out people you already know, I'd suggest starting a normal conversation first.

#568

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:52 PM

It's ok Walton. If you ever find yourself in Texas while I'm still here I won't hold it against you (and you'll need friends to drive you around), but I have a feeling I'll have been through most of Europe before that happened :P

Well, if you come to England on your next trip abroad, and I'm still at Oxford (which is very much contingent on my exam results), I promise that you're welcome to come and visit. You'd like Oxford. Depending on timing, I could even invite you to a guest dinner at my college, with gowns, candlelight and everything. :-)

Oh, and fuck off please.

Meh. I think I've done all the work I can usefully accomplish today. I've never been a cramming-right-before-the-exam kind of person.


#569

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:53 PM

Walton, you are not ugly. You sort of remind me of--I can't think of his name. British actor--shit. What's his name?
gee, thanks; that's got to be the world's most useless description :-p
#570

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:55 PM

Walton, I really want to do a semester abroad at Oxford, but of course it's not an easy school to get into for study abroad and I'm worried that my health is too poor to be 5000 miles away from home for so long.

#571

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 5:55 PM

So as of today
Endless thread = Hot or not?
And I missed the fun. I hate when I only have time to catch bits and pieces of the Endless Thread and miss the fun parts. I'll try not to miss the Pharyngula Wet T-shirt contest. I just hope the Endless Thread doesn't turn into Chat Roulette.
#572

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:00 PM

@KOPD

yeah I hope so too. I mean you guys are cool and all, but I just don't want to watch you all masturbate.

#573

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:07 PM

gee, thanks; that's got to be the world's most useless description :-p

Yeah... "British actor" could be anyone from Richard Attenborough, to David Tennant, to the late lamented Peter Sellers, to that weird guy who guest-starred as a reformed jewel-thief in a few episodes of Murder, She Wrote. I'd love to know who Aquaria was actually thinking of. :-)


#574

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:11 PM

I mean you guys are cool and all, but I just don't want to watch you all masturbate.

Don't take this wrong and all, but eeeeeeeeeeeewwww. Can we go back to discussing rabbits and flirting, without this really really unfortunate image?

#575

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:13 PM

There we go - for those who want to see shaved me:

http://i47.tinypic.com/21mi4nl.jpg

ok, I'm now mildly weirded out by the fact that in that photo, you have exactly the same face as my weirdass "evangelical christian" friend from Seattle. I'm serious, exactly the same face: same lips, same eyeshape, same eyebrows, same headshape and hairline; only your nose is wider than hers.
#576

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:15 PM

@Jadehawk:

Well, I can assure you I am not a girl. Perhaps mentally somehow... but not physically *haha*

#577

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:16 PM

oh yeah, and same colors, too.

#578

Posted by: Brownian, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:19 PM

I'm... confused?

Eh--

Thanks?

Sorry, Ol' Greg, but I wasn't just meaning you. I meant that I'm generally flirty with everyone, and that people aren't wrong to assume I'm being flirty.

Not to say that I don't think you are very attractive having, seen your photos, but I tend to generally abstain from referencing people's looks on the internet unless there's a specific reason to (mostly for reasons of not inadvertently promoting sexism.)

#579

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:23 PM

Sorry Mattir. I've had negative experiences with chatroulette.

To make up for it, enjoy these pictures of my darling late Carmel Creme the ferocious.

Ferocious Carmel

Less Ferocious Carmel

#580

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:24 PM

gee, thanks; that's got to be the world's most useless description :-p

You do know i've suffered an acute head injury, Jade, so memory issues are a lingering problem for me right now.

#581

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:25 PM

Bunny :D

#582

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:36 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm in the "not" category. I look like this guy, but with a shaved head.

#583

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:37 PM

You do know i've suffered an acute head injury, Jade, so memory issues are a lingering problem for me right now.

I'm sorry, Aquaria: I didn't know that. Apologies if my (intended-to-be-humorous) comment at #573 was insensitive.

#584

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:39 PM

To make up for it, enjoy these pictures of my darling late Carmel Creme the ferocious.

Ferocious Carmel

Less Ferocious Carmel

Awwww... super cute. :-)

#585

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:44 PM

Goddammit, now it's going to bug me all day who I meant.

This is what I get for not being into movie/TV culture. I can't keep straight the names of actors after 1945.

#586

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:47 PM

If you're wondering why I named a grey and white rabbit Carmel Creme, in my defense she was carmel and white as a baby.

this is Mocha, my little sister's late rabbit. Also a cutie. He didn't know his balls had been chopped off, and made attempts to mate with Carmel, who was twice his size. They had to have separate cages...

#587

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:47 PM

smiling sergeants -- something you do not want to see if E4 or below.

From an ex-E6 :-)

#588

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:47 PM

You do know i've suffered an acute head injury, Jade, so memory issues are a lingering problem for me right now.
I was just teasing :-(
#589

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:55 PM

Walton is not unattractive. He looks like my boyfriend, actually. Get rid of the mustache and the unibrow (sorry!) and you'd be really cute.

Ol'Greg of course is gorgeous.

#590

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:56 PM

Goddammit, now it's going to bug me all day who I meant.
I know what you mean. There can be a disconnect between recognizing a face, and attaching a name to it. Bugs me too. If I can remember even one movie or TV show, IMDB can be your friend.
#591

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 6:58 PM

You sort of remind me of--I can't think of his name. British actor--shit. What's his name?

Marty Feldman?

#592

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:01 PM

Kevin:

There we go - for those who want to see shaved me:
Still hot, but I honestly like the facial hair. Make a boy or girl happy and ask them out sometime!

A white Prince? (That's what I get ALL the time)
No, hotter.

Ol'Greg:

So as of today
Endless thread = Hot or not?
Apparently so. Is this a bad thing?

Jadehawk:

and, you know, people who are massively creeped out by strangers telling them they're cute, or otherwise offering unsolicited commentary on one's looks.
Well, this is in the context of being somewhere people might be looking, such as a bar or a club. Being creepy is a great way to get ignored, however attractive you are.

Haley:

I mean you guys are cool and all, but I just don't want to watch you all masturbate.
o.O Please, let's not go there. You might give the trolls ideas.

KOPD:

Depends on what someone is into. Obviously, someone thinks you're hot, or else you would not have spawned.

#593

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:02 PM

I'ma go back to the "natural birth" thing if that's okay with everyone*:

There seems to be a particular kind of credulous person who can be persuaded to do anything, no matter how batshit crazy, by being told it's "natural" and that the opposite is "unnatural".

This. Holy shit, this.

Are these idiots trying to drive infant/maternal mortality rates even higher than they already are now? IIRC, the US has insanely high rates of infant mortality-- granted, I'm pretty sure it's linked mostly to poor healthcare coverage, but still. Why would you do that to yourself or your child?

One of the reasons why I haven't told my mom that I'm trying to get pregnant is because she happens to be this particular brand of crazy. I'm really not looking forward dealing with her throughout the pregnancy, either (we live in the same city, so it'd be kind of hard to avoid her). And if I need/want painkillers or *gasp!* a c-section, then for fuck's sake, I'm going to do it.

*If it's not, then I agree that Kevin does not look 16. And he's rather attractive! In a Ted Bundy-ish sort of way...

*ducks!*

#594

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:05 PM

Walton is not unattractive. He looks like my boyfriend, actually. Get rid of the mustache and the unibrow (sorry!) and you'd be really cute.

Meh. I've been mono-browed since my early teens and have long since given up on doing anything about it. Shaving the middle bit would just make it grow back thicker, and I can't think of any other practical method.

The moustache, on the other hand, is more transient... if you look in my "photos of me" section, you will see a few more recent photos of me sans moustache (though it has since re-sprouted, albeit in less extravagant form).

#595

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:08 PM

try waxing it. it doesn't hurt. (really!) Although I'm pretty sure the whole shaving-makes-hair-grow-back-thicker is a myth.

You could pluck it too. It would do wonders for your appearance, seriously.

#596

Posted by: Sili, The Unknown Virgin Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:11 PM

Shaving the middle bit would just make it grow back thicker, and I can't think of any other practical method.
Isn't that just myth?

I certainly haven't grown a fuller beard from shaving. Nor are my armpits more full. Jury's still out on arse and nipples.

Anyway, wax and laser depilation might do it.

--o--

Wot! Wot! Did you meet the undergrad with the eyebrow named Walton? /straightman

#597

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:13 PM

Now that I've caught up with The Thread™:

Josh, I'm sorry your friend Michael is dead. If he had friends like you to grieve for him then he was a good man.

KOPD, congratulations on the birth of your daughter. May all three of you thrive and prosper.

#598

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:13 PM

the thing with "natural birth" and "home birth" in the U.S. is at least partially caused by rampant misogyny towards pregnant and birthing women from doctors and nurses. After you've had too many friends tell you how shitty they were treated, and how the doctors treated them like they were brainless and hormonally impaired (or worse yet, as annoyingly talkative appendages to their vaginas & uteruses) and basically be dismissive of them, you start looking for an alternative where you might get treated with a bit more dignity.

The sane alternative to hospital births that came from this however is not so much the natural birth & homebirth thing, but birth centers, which focus a lot more on what the woman wants, and are primarily staffed with nurses and certified midwifes, but there's always a doctor and necessary equipment on hand if something goes wrong.

#599

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:15 PM

try waxing it.

Maybe this is my masochism showing through, but there is nothing I love more than going to the salon, getting my hair cut and getting the brows waxed. And it's not just the feeling of "yay, I look pretty again!" but how the waxing actually feels.

Like itty bitty tattoos.

#600

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:17 PM

*Reads* Hmmmm. Okay, well, here's a pic of me and the Mr. back when we were in our mid/late 30s. I don't remember exactly, it was a while ago.

#601

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:22 PM

Haley:

Although I'm pretty sure the whole shaving-makes-hair-grow-back-thicker is a myth
It is and it isn't. The hair that grows back in is thicker, but there isn't any more of it. It just becomes somewhat more visible until it's had a chance to break naturally.

Sili:

Wot! Wot! Did you meet the undergrad with the eyebrow named Walton?
What was the name of his other eyebrow? ::ducks::

#602

Posted by: Aquaria Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:23 PM

'Tis @591, be nice. You know you're my cyber dreamboat. ;)

#603

Posted by: monado Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:23 PM

I second the recommendation for Feliway. The first time I used it, the cats all lay around blissfully just soaking up the peace.

We got some from our vet when cat friction was causing unacceptable behavior. She said it contained cat face pheromones, which make them all happy. Since then I try to pet all the cats' faces and transfer pheromones around.

The situation eased off as we created more spaces for cats to be apart and at different levels: a cat tree from a friend, different pathways around the rooms, cozy napping spots behind furniture.

#604

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:31 PM

Part of the problem with maternal care in the US is that our wildly excessive C-section rate actually contributes to bad outcomes. C-sections do save lives (I had one for the Spawn, since DaughterSpawn was transverse), but there is no way that the 40% C-section rate in some urban areas can be justified. There is also no reason why low-risk births shouldn't take place at home as they do in some European countries.

I totally agree that natural, safe, and ideal are not synonyms, but I really don't think that home or unmedicated births, attended by a qualified medical provider with physician backup (and, in the case of home births, privileges at a nearby hospital) are remotely similar to anti-vax or various other types of woo.

#605

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:35 PM

I totally agree that natural, safe, and ideal are not synonyms, but I really don't think that home or unmedicated births, attended by a qualified medical provider with physician backup (and, in the case of home births, privileges at a nearby hospital) are remotely similar to anti-vax or various other types of woo.

Fair enough. I apologise for drawing the parallel; I really don't know much about "natural birth". I was basing my impression on what Dianne and others said.

#606

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:42 PM

I should add, though, that there does seem to be a particular breed of woo-fanatic completely obsessed with everything being "natural", at any cost. And in its most extreme form, this view isn't much more rational than anti-vaxism.

#607

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:50 PM

I think the sane natural-birth position is similar to those who advocate that one attempt to deal with Type II diabetes through diet and exercise before moving on to pharmaceutical interventions. The least invasive effective intervention should be the first choice.

The anti-vax folks and other woo purveyors fail the effectiveness test, even if they pass the "least invasive" part. Plus there's plenty of woo that's pretty darn invasive (colon irrigation, anyone?).

#608

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:51 PM

Yawn... nearly 1am. Bedtime for me.

Thanks again, Ol'Greg, Aquaria and Haley. My self-esteem improved a little today. :-)

#609

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 7:57 PM

Mattir:
You make a good point, but I still think there's a certain degree of woo attached.

But, as long as the natural childbirth proponents* stay away from me when I'm in labor at our local (gloriously pink) women's hospital, then whatevs.

*My mom, trying to entice me to give her grandbabies, offered to pay for a midwife when the times comes. I told her we'd rather have her spend the money on something practical like a metric shit-ton of diapers.

#610

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:06 PM

Josh,

My sincere condolences for your loss. Your friend sounds like he was a great guy and his loss will be felt by many.

#611

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:08 PM

I mowed the lawn for FIFTEEN MINUTES and puked profusely.

I'm not even obese.

And I'm only 21.

What the fuck is wrong with my health?

Maybe it was the heat, but I didn't think it was that hot outside.

#612

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:09 PM

I've been on the *real* HotOrNot. My final score: 5.5. (Considering the pity votes, that's probably more like 3.)

#613

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:10 PM

Sleep well Walton. You will need it for your exams. I always felt being well rested was better than trying to cram all night, and taking the test on minimal sleep.


Josh, my apologies for late condolences. You lost a good fried.

#614

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:12 PM

I'm in labor at our local (gloriously pink) women's hospital,
if I had to give birth in a pink hospital, I might accidentally murder someone... for some reason, bright pinks and oranges make me anxious and angry
#615

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:14 PM

Benjamin Geiger:

I don't know about pity votes. There are plenty of ladies (like me!) who love a bald man.

#616

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:16 PM

Haley-

Also, I think there should be a regulars of Pharyngula facebook group so we can find each other.
That's actually a really good idea. Then we can quit having to be so cryptic and trying to find each other.

#617

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:16 PM

ODS: Baldness isn't the concern. (The baldness is self-induced.)

#618

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:17 PM

Katherine #611

We need more information before we can provide a long-distance, over-the-internet, armchair diagnosis.

1. Do you exercise regularly?
b. Have you recently been ill?
iii. What had you eaten before mowing the lawn?
(4) Had you been drinking alcohol before mowing the lawn?
E. Where you using a power mower or a handraulic mower?
VI. What was the outside temperature?

#619

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:17 PM

@ODS - Actually, having been through a high-risk pregnancy, I would strongly urge you to find a nice midwifery practice, staffed by real certified nurse midwives (who have actual medical education, as opposed to a lot of the weird "spiritual midwifery" loons). Pregnancy is risky, but does not necessarily involve disease. My experience (plus conversations with mom-friends who've had a wide variety of birth experiences and relationships with friends who are CNMs) leads me to generalize wildly that midwives treat a pregnant woman like an actual healthy person who should be monitored for risk factors, while OBs treat a pregnant woman like a medical catastrophe to be monitored for signs of health.

I saw a midwifery practice throughout my pregnancy with regular visits to their supervising OB. I never once left an OB visit without being in tears because they'd warned me about some great danger looming, none of which came to pass. The midwives could discuss risks with way more perspective and without totally freaking me out. I would also suggest, without knowing anything about whether you have a history of trauma, that women who have trauma histories can experience medical care during pregnancy as a type of retraumatization, and midwives are far more aware of this and better able to deal with it.

And remember that the ultimate goal is to have a healthy baby - it's not a test of your endurance or anything else. Sane midwives know this and are marvelous during C-sections as well as unmedicated births; they also offer far far better preparation for parenting an infant and postpartum support than OBs do - it's nice to be able to see the same person for nursing instruction instead of having to find a whole new medical specialist. Don't let anyone kid you - nursing is a skill that both mom and baby have to learn - I nursed twins exclusively for seven months and then continued for a long time after they started solid food - it is not an instinctive or automatic behavior for anyone involved.

Just ignore your mom and woo purveyors, find a sane midwifery practice with hospital privileges so that you have plenty of choices, and keep your medical decisions between yourself and Mr. ODS.

#620

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:18 PM

ODS: Baldness isn't the concern. (The baldness is self-induced.)

I didn't think it was a concern, I was talking more about the sex appeal of a baldie. ('Cos bald men rock my sox and I don't think I'm the only one out there. :D)

#621

Posted by: Carlie Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:22 PM

Walton and JeffreyD now requested to add to my facebook harem cabal posse friends list. I think. Or I just added random people. It's happened before.

I've promised to take a weekend computer break to be more completely in the moment at home for the holiday, so I hope everyone has an enjoyable few days.

#622

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:23 PM

*blinkblink* We're supposed to start flirting with rabbits, now?

On the natural childbirth thing; for a few years prior to when I got pregnant, western Oklahoma was on a major natural childbirth kick. A friend of mine had 4 more natural childbirths than she wanted, solely because the local doctors weren't willing to discuss other options.

Since I am a total wimp, I was so relieved when I went to my first prenatal checkup and the first thing the Dr. said after the intros was, "Do you want pain relief for the delivery, and if so, what kind?"

#623

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:26 PM

midwives treat a pregnant woman like an actual healthy person who should be monitored for risk factors, while OBs treat a pregnant woman like a medical catastrophe to be monitored for signs of health.
QFT (at least in the U.S., anyway)
#624

Posted by: OurDeadSelves Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:26 PM

Just ignore your mom and woo purveyors, find a sane midwifery practice with hospital privileges so that you have plenty of choices, and keep your medical decisions between yourself and Mr. ODS.

Thanks for the info, Mattir. I'll have to do some research on this-- I'm not even sure if NY certifies midwives.

Question: When you home birth, who cleans up that mess? 'Cos seriously, yuck.

#625

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:26 PM

It was more a rhetorical vent, really, but if you feel like doing armchair diagnosis (which, I know, is quite silly; I'm making a passel of appointments with my physician within the next few weeks), here's the answers to your questions:

We need more information before we can provide a long-distance, over-the-internet, armchair diagnosis.

1. Do you exercise regularly? No. In fact, I spend a lot of time on my ass.
b. Have you recently been ill? No. But I've got IBS, does that count?
iii. What had you eaten before mowing the lawn? I'd eaten approximately four hours before, and it was a flatbread sandwich containing ranch dressing, chicken, and shredded mozzarella cheese. There were also some bits of my lunch in there, which consisted merely of a bag of dried cherries.
(4) Had you been drinking alcohol before mowing the lawn? No.
E. Where you using a power mower or a handraulic mower? Power mower.
VI. What was the outside temperature? Mid-80s.

#626

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:27 PM

I forgot to tell you all about my moment of stupid yesterday.

It was bright and sunny when I left work yesterday afternoon so before I left my office I changed out of my regular glasses into my sunglasses. I left my glasses on my desk. As a result I drove to work this morning before dawn wearing my prescription sunglasses. Fortunately it was light enough that I could see well.

#627

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:28 PM

ODS: By "pity votes" I mean vote inflation. I know I'm guilty of this: I'll often give people 1-2 more points than I honestly think they deserve.

I finally found a way to see the histogram of my votes. They're approximately bell-curved, with a mean of about 3. I have no idea how that can equate to an average of 5.5, but that's what it says.

#628

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:33 PM

"Do you want pain relief for the delivery, and if so, what kind?"

I'd never see an OB who wouldn't consider pain relief, but I'd also be highly suspicious of an OB who expected me to walk in with firm opinions about the topic.

There are a lot of practices that can diminish (not eliminate) pain during childbirth, and IIRC, pain relief can have the bizarre side effect of making labor longer and/or C-sections more likely. Midwives tend to be more familiar with and skilled at assisting women during labor, and they have the expectation that they'll attend the whole labor phase, not just the delivery part - OBs do not hang out with you for the whole 20 hours of labor, midwives do. Plus there's the whole emotional support aspect, which is important even apart from the pain medication issue.

#629

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:34 PM

I was once told by a cop to drive home (which was a good 40 minutes away) with only only one contact lens. scariest drive ever, got dizzy and nauseous in the process, but made it somehow. Never would have suspected a cop to not just support, but downright encourage that kind of dangerous behavior...

#630

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:35 PM

So, I was reading Time's coverage of the Gulf oil disaster and a few things stood out to me.

Critics have long lamented that when it comes to energy policy, 9/11 was an opportunity for the country to have an honest debate about the choices it needs to make if it's ever going to break its addiction to oil. "We need to address the underlying issue," says Lisa Margonelli, director of the New America Foundation's Energy Policy Initiative, "and that's our dependence on oil." Having a national conversation now — an adult one — is the only way forward.

I'm tired of hearing about our "addiction" to oil. We are not addicted to oil. We have an entire society that is built around the availability of cheap petrofuels. Our very food is produced using these chemicals. Oil is not an addiction; it is a necessity. Most Americans wouldn't be able to get to their jobs without oil. Dealing with the pending crisis after Peak Oil is also a necessity, like dealing with a dwindling retirement account.

Already, greens and industry, Democrats and Republicans appear to be digging in for the usual siege. Offshore drilling was meant to be a bridge to conservatives, to get them on board with climate and energy legislation.

Because the fact that oil will actually run out isn't enough. Fuck the conservatives. Seriously, I hate this shit. The planet will, during my lifetime, run out of oil. There's no two sides to this. We absolutely have to invest in renewable energy, not because of global warming or environmental damage (these are important too!) but because humans, in general, are reliant on petroleum fueled agriculture. The result of not dealing with this simple fact will be starvation.

It will take years — perhaps decades — until renewables represent more than a tiny share of the energy mix, and in the meantime America needs to keep the lights on and the factories humming.

Could we not even consider that we use way too much fucking energy in the first place? Real conservation needs to start now, and we need government policies to encourage and enable people to make their homes and lives more energy efficient. One big thing is to curb urban sprawl. I know more than a few people who drive more than 30 miles from their homes to work. That's not just a lot of gasoline being burned, but also more time away from home and family. Things have got to change.

Also, the author made the point that renewable sources of energy are a very small part of the pie here in the USA, so it's unreasonable to expect them to take over the bulk of energy production. That's just stupid. Do they not realize how fast cars over took horse-based transport, or how fast railroads took off, how about how the transistor over took the vacuum tube? If you make better technology it can overtake the market relatively quickly.

#631

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:36 PM

Just got back inside - I heard the starlings making a racket, so I stuck my head out of studio window. There was our wild rabbit, munching sunseeds and there was an eagle, circling overhead. I hollered at the rabbit to get it run into the thicket,* but noooo. Grabbed my camera, ran outside. Rabbit ran into the thicket, the eagle circled a time or two, then took off. I sat down to keep watch for a moment or two, when a baby rabbit came out of the thicket and started eating dandelions. Got some good shots.

*I've seen and heard rabbits taken by hawks before. Nasty, don't want it happening in my back yard.

#632

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:36 PM

Katherine

I think you probably overstressed your body. You're not used to exercise, it was hot (mid-80s is hot), and your body told you it didn't want to play.

However you need to talk to a real doctor to confirm this off-the-wall-cuff diagnosis.

#633

Posted by: SC OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:38 PM

The ad at the top of the page keeps setting off my anti-virus.

***

to that weird guy who guest-starred as a reformed jewel-thief in a few episodes of Murder, She Wrote

Keith Michell - who's Australian, in fact - played Dennis Stanton (if that's who you're talking about). What's weird about him?

#634

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:44 PM

@ODS - Yes, NY certifies midwives. Licensing and OB oversight is the key, even more than the certified nurse midwife credential - where we are, only nurse-midwives are licensed.

I didn't homebirth (home C-section - there's a concept!), but I have a bunch of sane atheist friends who have. My understanding is that one is instructed how to set up one's home so as to minimize the mess and that the midwives generally clean up the mess before they leave. And definitely definitely arrange for doulas to visit for the first few days - having someone to baby the mom is very useful.

#635

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:46 PM

Pygmy Loris, I am afraid that perhaps it will come down to mass starvation before the idiots finally get the drift.

I'm sad that apparently the vast majority of humanity acts like twelve-year-olds even if they're more than twice that age.

#636

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 8:52 PM

Caine,

*I've seen and heard rabbits taken by hawks before. Nasty, don't want it happening in my back yard.

Yeah, I heard that once. If I never hear it again, it'll be too soon. Good FSM, rabbit screaming is a terrible sound.

#637

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:03 PM

Pygmy Loris, yeah, it's bad. Very bad. I'll never get that sound out of my head.

#638

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:05 PM

Katharine,

Things always have to get really bad before the masses are moved to do something about it. People always seem to assume something will come along and fix whatever is wrong. PZ wrote a post along these lines some years ago. I think he hit the nail on the head with that one.

#639

Posted by: Becca, the Main Gauche of Mild Reason Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:17 PM

Tori's birth was supposed to be a midwife-assisted birthing center birth, with Chris and I present and assisting. Then the placenta pulled away from the uterine wall (Thea had been in a car accident earlier, which probably was what did it), and she started to bleed. We called the midwife, who walked me through administering a pelvic exam on my kitchen floor while we were trying to figure out whether it was her water breaking or something more serious. then the midwife said "take her to the nearest emergency room, and treat speed limits as optional." Tori was born in an emergency c-section an hour later. oh, well. So much for graceful and natural. But we were at University of Michigan Hospital, which is stellar, and everything worked out ok.

#640

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:24 PM

I know that seems to be the case for most people that they won't move their asses until things get really bad, and I understand why some people might be psychologically inclined to do this, but the idea of letting things get out of control, especially to such an extent, is so anathema to what makes sense (i.e. solving the problem when it's small) that frankly, I sometimes wonder if mental illness is more prevalent than thought.

#641

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:26 PM

Horrible earworm, but nice beat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCPb_5Ok_QY

#642

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:27 PM

@Becca - Yikes. This is why I urge everyone I know to stay away from the "childbirth as peak emotional experience" Bradley method nonsense - it leads to ridiculous disappointment the moment anything high-risk happens. The important thing is that you had a medical professional who could tell you, over the phone, that you had an actual medical emergency and what to do. My midwife met me at the hospital and stayed with me through the C-section - she was the only person there focused primarily on me and I was tremendously grateful for her.

#643

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:30 PM

First thing I read after getting up this morning :

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/1060055/doctors-considering-mutilating-baby-girls

*facepalm*

Then we can quit having to be so cryptic and trying to find each other.

Prefer not to be found, thanks.

So as of today

Endless thread = Hot or not?

Yeah, maybe time to close it down.

#644

Posted by: aratina cage Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:33 PM

Josh, my deepest condolences for your loss. I'm glad that for someone so important to you and to the gay community that you were there with him all the way. I also want to reiterate that I find it just despicable the way same-sex families and gay people are mistreated and, yes, terrorized in the USA.

---

On a lighter note, congrats KOPD on the new addition to your family!

#645

Posted by: dnebdal.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:35 PM

Completely unrelated to anything.
I have just gotten dragged into a youtube comment debate. (I know - all my fault.)
With a guy who thinks the Mongolians rule the world.

The only vaguely Pharyngula-related response in there was this little gem:

Blue eyes, Blonde ...so you are race with those Monkeys color hair in Africa . .No human . no European color hairs that ways .. . I am very sure yo are smell too . . Do you see Black people .. the Xinhua Media told me Mongols created Black from Apes . . Blonde hairs from Monkeys that color . . .Please some time go to see your daddy in Africa !


I really have nothing to add, I just wanted to sigh in despair somewhere slightly public. Sorry about that.

#646

Posted by: Rey Fox Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 9:58 PM

"*blinkblink* We're supposed to start flirting with rabbits, now?"

There's a certain naked one with a whip around these parts that might not mind.

#647

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:07 PM

For those paying attention to the US Don't Ask Don't Tell repeal attempt: the Murphy amendment (repealing DADT) just passed in the House, 234-193 (with 11 votes left to cast). Now we get to see how the final bill turns out.

#648

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:14 PM

Benjamin,

Can we say "it's about goddamned time?"

Does anyone know what would happen under DADT if we had a draft? Would men and women* who were already out be inelligible?

*Yes, I know women aren't currently subject to the draft, but I'm working from a hypothetical situation, so I tried to make it egalitarian. Besides, I think women should be subject to the draft.

#649

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:20 PM

Yeah, I heard that once. If I never hear it again, it'll be too soon. Good FSM, rabbit screaming is a terrible sound.
The Redhead heard that once when a moving door went over one of the bunnies hind feet (but didn't hurt the bunny) and scared it. Scared the beFSM out of the Redhead. Later they were present when Night of the Lepus was playing on the boob tube. They grunted for a while after that.

BG, good news. But, IIRC the bill requires the joint chiefs to ensure that unit cohesiveness is not comprised. Although the JCS seemed headed toward that conclusion.

#650

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:25 PM

Pygmy Loris:

Besides, I think women should be subject to the draft.
Except that it's not always easy for the government to tell whether women are fit to serve due to being pregnant or needing to take care of the household. Yes, it's true that men can take care of the household just as well as a woman these days, but the assumption that a woman will be doing so is part of the reason that men are drafted and not women.

I personally despise the draft. There are plenty of means to serve your country other than in the military. Besides, instituting a draft implies that the public is not behind the conflict you need the draft for, anyway.

#651

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:27 PM

Pygmy Loris:

I'm straight, and now I'm too old to be drafted, but if I were drafted, I'd suck a dick to get out of it. I'd probably also throw half a ton of garbage over a cliff to get out of it.

#652

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:31 PM

@Mattir:

If you see this...

were you the one who mentioned daughterspawn had an interest in taxonomy?

If so, I'm friends with an emeritus taxonomist here in NZ (who is also a pharyguloid), who has volunteered to make himself available for questioning.

email me at:

fisheyephotosAThotmailDOTcom

and I'll get you in touch with him. He's a really nice guy, and more than happy to find a potential budding taxonomist to chat at.

cheers

#653

Posted by: Owlmirror Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:32 PM

So.

Bunnies. Let's talk bunnies.

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes.
  They got them hoppy legs and twitchy twitchy little noses
  And what's with all the carrots?
  What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?

So let's say that you're a paleontologist who is interested in investigating the changes in life forms between the Precambrian and the Cambrian. So you go to do some fieldwork in a nice Precambrian Lagerstätte, such as in Mistaken Point, Newfoundland. And you manage to find some forms that have never been seen before, by searching harder: maybe by levering off or up some big slabs; maybe by rappelling down a cliff to a fresh exposure. Anyway, in addition to all the Precambrian life, you turn your head, and there you see embedded in the same rock is the skeleton of... a rabbit.

Well, crap. Now what?

Let's posit, for the sake of argument, that there is no evidence of a hoax; no discontinuities between the rock, the Precambrian fossils, and the rabbit skeleton embedded with them.

So you call over your fellow investigators, and you all take high-resolution photographs, and maybe even an impression or a cast. And you wonder what the hell it means. Is evolution falsified now?

You take the photographs and whatnot to a vertebrate zoologist, to figure out exactly what species of Leporid this is. And the zoologist looks up references, and compares the characters to the photographs &c, and says that it's definitely in the Lepus genus, probably Lepus europaeus. And then wonders what all the weird marine lifeforms overlying and intermixed with the rabbit skeleton are. "They're Precambrian", you say. The zoologist stares and says "Wait, what?"

Does this mean that evolution is falsified now?


The theory of evolution explains the differences in living organisms: offspring differ from parents, some of those differences are inheritable, and these differences can lead to better survival rates for those offspring that have them. Different traits can aid survival in different ways, too: one set of individuals may have traits that enable coping with warmer or cooler climate, while another may have traits that lead them to shun those climate changes. Both work in different ways to enable survival. Evolution is not prescriptive; there is nothing that says that changes must happen. There is nothing that makes one set of traits "better" except in how they permit survival for those organisms that have those traits. In modern evolutionary biology, these inherited differences are specifically linked to the units of inheritance; to genes made of DNA.

How does the rabbit skeleton falsify any of that?

The theory of common descent is often conflated with the theory of evolution, but it isn't exactly the same. It basically looks at the organisms alive today in light of the theory of evolution, and extrapolates backwards: Given the differences and similarities that exist between different species now, those species are best understood as the descendant populations of a single ancestor species, and this extrapolation can be repeated indefinitely going backward in time to older single populations that split, until a single and unique ancestral population is reached. Since geochemists have discovered that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, this means that there was plenty of time for these changes to have taken place, given the small amount of changes per generation. Hence, the tree of life.

There are certain reasonable assumptions that palaeontologists usually make about fossils: that an individual or group of individuals fossilized actually represent a much larger population; that that population itself may well have quite a few sister and cousin species; that the organism lived in a particular ecosystem and climate, and had a particular diet and living environment, and its remains may well reflect that.

Do those assumptions make sense in the case of this Precambrian rabbit? For the sake of this scenario, all that is found is the rabbit skeleton itself. There is no sign of pollen indicating the sort of plants that rabbits eat (such plants did not evolve until at least another hundred million years after the end of the Precambrian).

How about an alternative scenario?

Consider watches; wristwatches and pocket-watches. We have a theory as to how watches come about: Human beings make them. The design of the watch is drafted by a human. Humans find the metal, refine it, pour it into molds of the desired shapes, or flatten it into sheets which are then cut up or punched out. In modern watches, tiny jewels are cut to seat some of the metal pieces. The pieces are assembled into movements according to the design. All this is either done by humans, or done by machines themselves made by humans.

What if you found a watch in the Precambrian strata, instead of a rabbit? Would this falsify the theory of how watches come about? Would it matter if the watch had markings or writing on it that clearly indicated Arabic or Latin numerals, and some human language or some obvious descendant of human language? How about if it was clearly marked with a manufacturer's brand like ROLEX?

Let's consider a few theories to account for a watch showing up in the Precambrian.

  1. It spontaneously self-assembled.
  2. An omniscient and omnipotent God, knowing that watches exactly like it would eventually be manufactured by humans, created it and put it in the strata to eventually be found, for reasons completely opaque to us.
  3. Intelligent beings evolved on Earth before the Precambrian, developed a manufacturing process and language identical to that of modern humans, and left no sign of themselves besides the watch.
  4. Aliens from outer space had a manufacturing process like ours, and spoke and wrote the same language as what humans would eventually evolve to speak, and dropped the watch there.
  5. Time travel of some sort is possible. The watch was manufactured in the near past or will be manufactured in the future, by humans, and somehow went back in time to the Precambrian.

Which of these theories is the most parsimonious and probable, best able to explain the watch as it appears? I'm going with number 5. Does anyone want to defend any of the others? Are there theories that I might have left out?


Getting back to the Precambrian rabbit scenario:

We have a theory of how rabbits arose, just as we have a theory of how watches come about. It involves lobe-finned fish evolving from craniates; tetrapods evolving from lobe-finned fish; synapsids evolving from tetrapods; mammals evolving from synapsids; and rabbits evolving from mammals. It's not something we have as good a "picture" of as a watch factory -- there are plenty of pieces still missing, and some that that are arguable about where and how they fit -- but is well-supported by everything we know about rabbits, mammals, and other tetrapods.

In analogy to the watch, let's consider some theories to account for a rabbit showing up in the Precambrian.

  1. The rabbit, or its skeleton, spontaneously self-assembled.
  2. An omniscient and omnipotent God, knowing that rabbits exactly like what we know of would eventually evolve, created the rabbit and put it in the strata to eventually be found, for reasons completely opaque to us.
  3. Vertebrate mammalian life evolved on Earth before the Precambrian, and left no sign of itself besides the one rabbit.
  4. Aliens from outer space evolved life exactly like what we have now, and dropped the rabbit there.
  5. Time travel of some sort is possible. The rabbit is one that was born of rabbits that evolved as described by the theory of evolution, following the timeline (tetrapod-synapsid-mammal-rabbit) as currently understood, and this one individual somehow went back in time to the Precambrian, leaving its skeleton to puzzle paleontologists.

I'm still going with number 5 as the most parsimonious and probable explanation. Any disagreement? Is there a possibility I didn't think of?


Thus we refute Haldane...

#654

Posted by: Dianne Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:34 PM

There is also no reason why low-risk births shouldn't take place at home as they do in some European countries.

Yes there is. Reason #1: distance. The US is much less densely populated than Europe and you're more likely to be far from a hospital in the US than in Europe. Related problem: the traffic is, in general, worse in urban areas in the US so even if you're physically as near as in the average European city you may be further away in terms of drive or ambulance time.

Reason #2: The system isn't prepared for it. A certain percentage of low risk births will turn abruptly into high risk births. If the midwife attending a home birth doesn't have the experience to deal with, say, a sudden hemorrhage or cord prolapse, one or both of the people involved in the birth could be dead quickly. Even if the midwife does know what s/he is doing and gets the patient toward a hospital quickly there are no set protocols for dealing with birth emergencies quickly so more delays than (by repute) there are in Europe.

Maybe it should be possible to have low risk births at home in the US, but I wouldn't recommend it at this point.

#655

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:34 PM

I'd probably also throw half a ton of garbage over a cliff to get out of it.
Perchance?
#656

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:34 PM

@651 - good reference.

I actually think we need to have the draft because the people who generate the most aggressive noise and make decisions about using the military are often the ones who have no family members who could be killed as a result. Spreading the risk would be very useful. Plus I think that having young adults do mandatory national service in which they mix with people from vastly different backgrounds would be very useful. Never gonna happen, though. *sigh*

#657

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:35 PM

Besides, I think women should be subject to the draft.

I always thought getting yourself shot, decapitated or blown up in a foreign country is not really the best way to go about female equality.

That's ignoring the fact that a draft is barbaric and fundamentally undemocratic IMO.

#658

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:39 PM

Regarding drafts, my father applied to get on the local draft board just in case something nutty ever happened while I was living with them (which will be until I finish undergrad).

I also have an escape route to Eastern Europe if necessary.

But I suspect a draft board would assign me to a non-combat position anyway, partially because 1) I have a high risk of compartment syndrome, having had surgery on one leg and the other still under some pressure, 2) I have numerous physical issues which would prevent me being useful cannon fodder, most especially IBS and the propensity to get exhausted very quickly even though I'm 21 and not obese, and 3) I can prove quite easily that it is better for them to draft me into a service where my primary tool is my mind and not a weapon.

#659

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:40 PM

Sorry for the very useful overuse. Oy. Time to get off the intertubes.

@Diane - yes, I agree, but the people I know who've had out of hospital births were within 15 minutes of a hospital and were attended by CNMs with a lot of experience (including high risk situations) and hospital admission protocols in place to minimize delays for emergencies. If I were in rural Nebraska, I'd be at the local hospital's birthing center for sure.

#660

Posted by: Owlmirror Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:41 PM

#653 is probably tl;dr, but I wanted to get that out, because Haldane's "falsification" of evolution bugs ¹ me.

More briefly, though: Congrats KOPD on the successful spawning.

And condolences, Josh, OSG, on your loss. It's never easy.

____________________________________
1: Yes, this was deliberate.

#661

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:45 PM

Mattir:

Plus I think that having young adults do mandatory national service in which they mix with people from vastly different backgrounds would be very useful.
There are plenty of ways to engage in national service than being in the military. In fact, if more people did serve in some fashion, maybe we wouldn't have "the people who generate the most aggressive noise" be the same as the people who "make decisions about using the military."

#662

Posted by: Nepenthe Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:47 PM

Katharine @ 641

That was the UChicago Scavhunt theme song this year. I learned very little from Scav, but I now can spell Prisencolinensinainciusol.


But the real killer of an earworm on this year's list was this abomination. Described quite accurately thus: "Probably the worst song in the world, but you can't stop listening to it!!"

Don't say I didn't warn you. I take no responsibility for any violence that result from viewing this video.

#664

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:48 PM

Besides, I think women should be subject to the draft.

If there's a draft, I agree. However, I'm opposed to a draft. I'm old enough to remember the draft and it's a lousy idea. I'm with Benjamin, if a draft were instituted again and I was of an age to be called up, I do pretty much whatever I had to do to get the fuck out of it. My husband was lucky, his number wasn't called in Vietnam, but he was busy considering his...options.

#665

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:50 PM

Hmmm... I think that women should be equally subject to drafting.

But then I also think there should be no draft. If I had gotten drafted though I probably would have gone and tried to be the best soldier possible.

Because what else am I going to do at that point? Run, kill myself?

#666

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:53 PM

Nepenthe:

It's a tossup whether that song or this one is worse.

#667

Posted by: KOPD Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:54 PM

The only draft I believe in comes in a frosty mug.

#668

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:55 PM

As one who was in the draft pool during the 'Nam era, I think the all volunteer army is a great idea.

#669

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:57 PM

Oops, I think I've been misunderstood. I was not calling for a draft, nor do I think a draft is necessarily a good idea. However, in the event of a draft, I think that women should be subject to the same rules as men. I would probably support a national service law, though. If it was something like Germany's where you can serve in the military or in a social service capacity. My support would depend on the organizations that qualified for the social service category (allowing religious service to qualify would be a big no-no for me!).

Except that it's not always easy for the government to tell whether women are fit to serve due to being pregnant or needing to take care of the household. Yes, it's true that men can take care of the household just as well as a woman these days, but the assumption that a woman will be doing so is part of the reason that men are drafted and not women.

So women shouldn't be in the military at all? First of all, there's a simple way to tell if a woman shouldn't serve because she's pregnant, a pregnancy test! Second, we can get around the take care of the household issue by not drafting single parents (of either sex/gender) and not drafting both parents in a two parent household. Men can pick up the slack back home if their spouses are drafted.

Katharine,

Even people who are conscripted have to pass a physical. From your description of yourself, you wouldn't pass the physical, so no worries.

#670

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 10:59 PM

Because what else am I going to do at that point? Run, kill myself?

The fact that your country would force you to consider these options is exactly what makes any draft such an undemocratic policy.

#671

Posted by: llewelly Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:00 PM

Owlmirror | May 27, 2010 10:32 PM:

I'm still going with number 5 as the most parsimonious and probable explanation. Any disagreement? Is there a possibility I didn't think of?

You left out an important hypothesis.


666. Satan planted the rabbit in order to turn you into a creationist.

#672

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:03 PM

Okay, well, here's a pic of me and the Mr. back when we were in our mid/late 30s. I don't remember exactly, it was a while ago.
Oh, Caine, that's a great picture.

Maybe I should start rummaging around in my old pics, too. Hmmm.

#673

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:03 PM

llewelly,

666. Satan planted the rabbit in order to turn you into a creationist.

Damn, Satan really is evil. :P

#674

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:03 PM

Pygmy Loris:

So women shouldn't be in the military at all? First of all, there's a simple way to tell if a woman shouldn't serve because she's pregnant, a pregnancy test!
Ah, I've been misunderstood as well. I was really pointing to the fact that the government can't know all the reasons someone can't serve in a military capacity, which is one of the reasons I oppose a draft. It doesn't make logistical sense, either, because you are picking from a population that is least likely to be completely loyal to your cause. There will always be people who will volunteer for military service and we simply need to learn to work within our means.

#675

Posted by: Nepenthe Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:05 PM

Benjamin:

In the genre of Obnoxious Songs about Fast Food, I stand by Das Racist as the zenith (nadir?) of art. I like how it's called the Burger Dance but most of the establishments referenced don't serve burgers.

#676

Posted by: Haley Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:05 PM

people of both genders are parents (pretty shocking statement here :P) but women, being the ones who give birth and (often) nurse, have a unique position. Should the rules say that women who are pregnant or nursing shouldn't have to be drafted? What if a woman has a 2 year old she would be nursing if she could, but for various reasons cannot? I hate the idea of the draft in general, but it seems like a female draft would have extra issues.

#677

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:07 PM

Katrina, thanks. I got leaves everywhere. :)

#678

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:08 PM

There will always be people who will volunteer for military service and we simply need to learn to work within our means.

The problem is that the people who volunteer are often the ones with the fewest educational and economic options. "Assemble your army from the poor" is really not a strategy designed to foster social cohesion.

#679

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:15 PM

deriamis,

I was really pointing to the fact that the government can't know all the reasons someone can't serve in a military capacity, which is one of the reasons I oppose a draft. It doesn't make logistical sense, either, because you are picking from a population that is least likely to be completely loyal to your cause.

I see your point. The military does have ways of making you fight, though. Back in the day (Civil War) they might brand your face if you ran away.

At the risk of Godwining this discussion, an all volunteer force (from any of the allies, not just us) probably wouldn't have been enough to win WWII. There are situations where a draft is necessary. However, barring another World War, I don't think there's much chance of a draft being necessary now. The idea of a draft for our current conflicts is particularly odious since they're both wars of choice. Drafting people 'cause you want someone else's natural resources is really, really shitty. Especially if you aren't sending your own offspring off to fight.

Mattir,

I actually think we need to have the draft because the people who generate the most aggressive noise and make decisions about using the military are often the ones who have no family members who could be killed as a result.

See, I think politicians who vote for the use of military solutions to conflict should automatically be drafted themselves or have their military age offspring drafted. It might stay some hands to know that their son or daughter has to go and risk their lives (or that said son or daughter will hate their parent for sending them to war). Still, it wouldn't be fair to punish offspring for their parents' decisions.

#680

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:15 PM

Mattir:

The problem is that the people who volunteer are often the ones with the fewest educational and economic options. "Assemble your army from the poor" is really not a strategy designed to foster social cohesion.
Actually, that's rather untrue. Besides, the people you want in the military are the ones who see opportunities in it. It's when you start picking from the poor indiscriminately and almost exclusively that you start to have problems. This is why the military has aptitude tests and qualifications for entry.

#681

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:22 PM

Pygmy Loris:

At the risk of Godwining this discussion, an all volunteer force (from any of the allies, not just us) probably wouldn't have been enough to win WWII. There are situations where a draft is necessary.
Probably true, but propaganda did a much better job than the draft did anyway. A draft could have been avoided, though, if we had listened to Winston Churchill's warnings and gotten in earlier. Moot point in any case.

See, I think politicians who vote for the use of military solutions to conflict should automatically be drafted themselves or have their military age offspring drafted.
Better idea: reduce the influence of the military in our government in the first place. It's not necessarily that we have warlike people in charge but that war seems like an easy solution when you have generals constantly lobbying for more money - and you haven't spent any of that money on actual diplomacy.
#682

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:24 PM

deriamis,

It's when you start picking from the poor indiscriminately and almost exclusively that you start to have problems. This is why the military has aptitude tests and qualifications for entry.

What in the world does that second sentence have to do with the first one? Our current military is disproportionately composed of men and women from the working and poverty-stricken classes because they don't have many other options. I don't feel all that comfortable having a military full of people who did not have any other viable choice but to risk their lives for economic security. It's not a free choice to volunteer when other opportunities are few and far between.

#683

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:30 PM

I got leaves everywhere. :)
It wouldn't have been any fun otherwise. ;-)
Besides, the people you want in the military are the ones who see opportunities in it. It's when you start picking from the poor indiscriminately and almost exclusively that you start to have problems. This is why the military has aptitude tests and qualifications for entry.
And there really are good opportunities, not all of which include actual combat.
#684

Posted by: cicely Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:30 PM

Mattir, the doctor who delivered my kid, and very competently, wasn't strictly an OB, and had been my husband's doctor from when he was a boy (small town; perforce a general practioner); since he knew Keith, he probably figured that we had done the research on pain relief. I had my epidural, if not quite as quickly as I would have preferred, and when my son debuted, he was more-than-alert; on some 10-point scale, they wanted to give him an 11. :D In fact, he got up on his extended arms, looking around, wobbly but bright-eyed and on his game!

#685

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:31 PM

deriamis, my dear friend in Bucharest who is dirt poor and is also a college student in their top polytechnic university would have a problem with what you said.

#686

Posted by: Cobolt Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:32 PM

Arghhh

How is this even contemplated in a western country???

#687

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:35 PM

Our current military is disproportionately composed of men and women from the working and poverty-stricken classes because they don't have many other options.

Solution? Increase their options.

#688

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:38 PM

See, I think politicians who vote for the use of military solutions to conflict should automatically be drafted themselves or have their military age offspring drafted. It might stay some hands to know that their son or daughter has to go and risk their lives

I find they usually shut up fast once that happens. They haven't had to deal with the probably abject horror that is fearing for your life.

#689

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:41 PM

The problem is that the people who volunteer are often the ones with the fewest educational and economic options.
Not necessarily. I have a cousin who got his twenty in with the Air Force. He had civilian opportunities, but really needed the structure that that being in service provided. When he retired, he was maintenance crew chief for an A-10 (Warthog) squadron. Some of the planes they serviced were so old that were used in 'Nam.
#690

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:44 PM

Pygmy Loris:

What in the world does that second sentence have to do with the first one? Our current military is disproportionately composed of men and women from the working and poverty-stricken classes because they don't have many other options.
I was responding with the words you used, but what I was talking about is the fact that the military already selects those who enter based on predefined criteria. And no, your data is incorrect, at least here in the US. (Yes, I realize where that link comes from, but I can't find any reason for a bias to influence the conclusions. Yet.)

Katharine:

deriamis, my dear friend in Bucharest who is dirt poor and is also a college student in their top polytechnic university would have a problem with what you said.
I don't know why. I'm talking about the situation here in the US, where it's much easier for someone to get that sort of degree while in the military than by any other means. Of course I don't believe that the poor should choose the military; I think they should be allowed to choose other options just as easily. Such as a polytechnic university.

#691

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:54 PM

Like many others, I had a "group" of doctors-plus-midwife. Because I would get whoever was on duty when the baby came, I tried to make sure that I had at least one checkup with each partner. I ended up going into labor when my least favorite doc was on duty, but since it quickly turned into an emergency section, I was later thankful that I had him. While I'm sure the others would have done just as well, he at least knew his business.

But while I was in the hospital, recovering, it was the midwife who stopped in to check on us. And that was great, too.

The second time around was in a military hospital, so I had one doc all the way through. That worked out well also. Being military, I had - essentially - government run healthcare, and so the twins were very carefully monitored from start to finish, without an insurer getting in the way.

#692

Posted by: Finch Author Profile Page | May 27, 2010 11:59 PM

@KOPD 667

The only draft I believe in comes in a frosty mug.

True that. Also, congratulations!

#693

Posted by: Pygmy Loris Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:17 AM

deriamis,

I looked over the paper you linked to, but I don't have the energy to really read it tonight (and I won't have the time until Monday*). Suffice to say that until I can thoroughly read it, I'm not accepting anything posted by the Heritage Foundation at face value. One reason for a bias from the Heritage Foundation on this issue is their position that class warfare is non-existent/unimportant. If the military is perceived as primarily composed of the poor and ordered into combat by the rich, that contributes to distrust of the rich by the poor.

*I'm more than happy to continue this discussion then. I just wanted to let you know that I'm not ignoring it or your point. I'm just going to be pretty busy this weekend.

#694

Posted by: Benjamin Geiger Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:30 AM

Look over there! It's a shiny change of topic!

I took a couple hundred photos today. I was basically apprenticing to an apprentice photographer (a coworker); I played kid-goalie and light wrangler, while he took photos to build his portfolio. When I wasn't busy, I was shooting too, taking photographs of opportunity, to coin a phrase.

I don't feel comfortable posting the best shot I took, because it's a portrait of the kid we were shooting. The kid in question is the daughter of another couple of coworkers, and I need to clear it with them. But I can post the next best photo I took today. Ten shots of that flower, and they all came out well, but that was the best.

#695

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:43 AM

Benjamin, a beautiful shot of a Rudbeckia! It will be ages before mine are up and blossoming, but they are a favourite subject. The first flowers blossoming here are wild crocus, called windflower here. Got my happy "oh, flowers!" shots and those are here: http://moblog.net/view/927143/crocus

Sounds like you had a happy and busy day.

#696

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:44 AM

Pygmy Loris:

One reason for a bias from the Heritage Foundation on this issue is their position that class warfare is non-existent/unimportant.
I can accept this as a possible bias, but I don't see how it relates to the issue. It's a bit of a stretch to go from that bias to showing it in the actual data. Biases generally deal with conclusions more often than skewing raw data. What you're allegiin isn't bias but malfeasance.

Also, there is also other data to support their conclusions. A complicating factor here is that the military doesn't tend to care so much about the socioeconomic status of its recruits, other than to note that the vast majority of them have high school diplomas.

However, it's worthy to note that low socioeconomic status doesn't always mean reduced opportunities. It's simply that it's currently easier to get that degree and a significant income in the military than anywhere else. In a volunteer military, though, if someone doesn't want to join, they don't have to. The fact that life might be easier isn't forcing people to join at all.

#697

Posted by: ronsullivan Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:00 AM

The definitive Dave Van Ronk version of "Port of Amsterdam."

Also, nobody should miss Garden State Stomp."

Ach, I'm too tired to read the rest of the Thread tonight. Just:

Congrats, KOPD.

Odd-shaped congrats, too, to Josh, for doing a very difficult, painful, and necessary thing. And condolences too. And I join you in being pissed off at current laws. I hate that that shit gets in the way of the real stuff, tangles the deep pain of losing someone like that in the rusty discarded barbwire of religion/bigotry/stale culture.

Best of luck, Wowbagger. I haven't had the urge to attend any reunions yet. My 40th college reunion is next year; I wonder.

#698

Posted by: kiyaroru Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:19 AM

not about childbirth, but about life...

I just spent 20 minutes outside covering with old bedsheets my tomato and pepper transplants, moving the stuff in pots back to the living-room...(the cucumbers are dead).
Gardening at 53°N is always an adventure.

#699

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:05 AM

As the regulars here know, I'm pro-military and was in the Officers Training Corps for a time. I believe in maintaining a strong military, and I respect the men and women of the armed forces. So what I'm about to say is in no way representative of anti-military sentiment.

A military draft is a really, really, really bad idea, and if one were ever implemented I would actually be protesting in the streets. There are two reasons. Firstly, a basic philosophical one. The whole concept of a draft is anathema to freedom. The draft essentially presupposes that citizens are the property of the state, and that the state has the right to force them to risk their lives on its behalf for the purpose of serving its objectives. In a free society, this is totally wrong. My life belongs to me, not to the state. Some people volunteer to risk their lives in defence of the nation and its values, and this is admirable; but the nation does not have the right to demand this of its citizens. It's a form of de facto enslavement, and it's totally and utterly wrong.

Secondly, a practical argument. The needs of modern warfare are not served by a draft. A conscript army was suitable for fighting "traditional" large-scale conventional wars; but in the modern post-nuclear age, we're not going to have another war like that. Rather, we need to look at the wars we are fighting. Conscripts are totally unsuitable for being sent around the world and deployed to far-off places, to fight a war which they may not care about or even understand, in a completely unfamiliar and hostile environment. The disastrous failure of the US in Vietnam illustrated this perfectly. For that kind of task, you need professional, motivated soldiers. Sending conscripts to Afghanistan or Iraq would be a recipe for total military disaster.

#700

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:20 AM

Sending conscripts to Afghanistan or Iraq would be a recipe for total military disaster.
as opposed to the total military disaster we currently have...?

mind you, I'm also against the draft, but that just was a very stupid thing to say.

#701

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:25 AM

as opposed to the total military disaster we currently have...?

The present situation is nowhere near as bad as Vietnam. If the current volunteer troops were replaced with conscripts, it would quickly become as bad as Vietnam.

#702

Posted by: dnebdal.myopenid.com Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:43 AM

Hmm, let me summarize our local version.

Ideally, all men are supposed to spend a year in the military. This is arguably a fair solution, since it means there's less room for getting out of it by having contacts or money, and the forced mixing of people you experience seems likely to have some decent side effects. (There's also an alternate Civil Service you can get transferred to if you object to weapons usage.)

To get sent out of the country, you have to volunteer: It's treated as a separate job you can get afterwards (where suitable military service is a job requirement). No forced tours of Iraq; the worst you might get is a year in Bardufoss. Admittedly, that's not my idea of a fun vacation, but you're deeply unlikely to be harmed in any serious way.

The argument is that we have a huge force of reserves to call on if we ever do get invaded, and that it makes it more likely to find suitable and willing volunteers for foreign service. There's also the idea that it gives everyone (well, all men) a better understanding of and connection with our army, which is ... probably true, but not always a positive. (To be fair, they seemed to have a decently competent bureaucracy when I was in. Bit surprising, really.)


Realistically speaking, I don't exactly see us getting invaded by anyone in the foreseeable future - the traditional threat was Soviet, but I don't think Russia is likely to come marching west. That alone makes half the argument disappear. As for the foreign services, well - they're underfunded, partially because handling a lot of conscripts every year is quite expensive. The military leadership wants to drop down to an entirely professional army just to save money; we're mostly staying with the conscription thing for political reasons. It's seen as one of those unifying national things, and having been through it [1] I ... understand the argument. To quote Linus Torvalds: The main reason for the Finnish army is to give Finnish men something to talk about when they meet for the rest of their lives.

I have no idea where I'm going with this, really.
It works ok, but there is a bit of slavery to it, and it's not the most efficient way to run a military. So, uhm. Yeah.

[1] I sat in an office sending king's guards' troops to civilian courses, in things like MS Office certification or bulldozer usage - and there was that one time when I gave math courses to a classroom full of 2nd Lts.
One of the mildest places I could end up, really.

#703

Posted by: DominEditrix Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:48 AM

Becca, et al.:

Two years ago, we went to a shelter to obtain one kitten. Strictly one. There was a lovely silver grey kitten, whom we immediately fell in love with. Then I turned around, and there was the saddest looking little tabby kitten sitting at the front of her cage, so we had to have her, as well. The Biophysicist, who had agreed to one kitten to make me happy, is now the Crazy Cat Man - my former cats had to be satisfied with a crumpled bit of paper or some string; these cats have every toy in the store - so what do they play with? Bottle caps.

#704

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:57 AM

I don't have the time or energy to argue the point at the moment, but let me just point out that for decades, I have been raising the idea that there be a mandatory civil service requirement in the States.

NOT a necessarily military one, but ANY civil service.

it's about time more high school grads started realizing what the value is to serving their country from a legislative standpoint. Maybe then we will start getting some legislators that aren't just in it for their own personal religious agendas, to get on some rezoning committee to bolster their real estate values, or some lawyer trying to change the laws slightly to increase their fucking caseloads.

I can count the number of federal legislators I'm positive have a real wish to serve the public on one hand ATM.

I figure forcing people to get involved in civil service will make a few of the more intelligent folk actually see the value of it and try to make a career of it.

#705

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 5:06 AM

I don't have the time or energy to argue the point at the moment, but let me just point out that for decades, I have been raising the idea that there be a mandatory civil service requirement in the States.

"Mandatory civil service" is no more justified than "mandatory military service". Both of them rest on the idea that citizens are the property of the state, and that the state is entitled to require them to work for it and to serve its objectives. This is wrong in any free society.

It is not for the government to decide how an individual should spend his or her time. It's up to the individual. And government has no right to demand that anyone "serve the public", in ways mandated by the government, against his or her will. This assumes that the government's idea of "serving the public" is the right one, and that citizens are morally bound to go along with it - which is, frankly, a highly authoritarian notion.

I also note that, as with almost every demand for "compulsory service", the people calling for it are not in the age group who would be doing the compulsory service...

I figure forcing people to get involved in civil service will make a few of the more intelligent folk actually see the value of it and try to make a career of it.

Utter bullshit. Mandatory service of any kind will just lead to the recruitment of large numbers of people who don't want to be there, and who will do their jobs badly. I can't see the slightest jot of evidence that it will cause anyone whatsoever to "see the value" in public service, to any greater extent than they already do.

#706

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 5:09 AM

Both of them rest on the idea that citizens are the property of the state

wrong.

#707

Posted by: Geoffrey Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 5:22 AM

@Ichthyic

wrong

Well that certain cleared things up. Thanks for the explanation.

</sarcasm>

#708

Posted by: Geoffrey Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 5:23 AM

Shit.

certainly.

I even previewed. :/

#709

Posted by: Feynmaniac, Chimerical Toad Superhero Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:13 AM

A military draft is a really, really, really bad idea, and if one were ever implemented I would actually be protesting in the streets.

I generally agree, however it might be justified under extreme circumstances (i.e, to stop the Nazis).

Now get back to fucking work!

#710

Posted by: Stephen Wells Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:21 AM

I just wanted to let you all know that the Leverhulme trust are funding my research proposal for an early-career fellowship, and I will therefore have a job for two more years.

This makes me happy.

You may now return to whatever you were doing.

#711

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:26 AM

You may now return to whatever you were doing.
Reading Pharyngula.

But congratulations on the funding. That always helps a career.

#712

Posted by: Shala Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:40 AM

Just got an email saying I wasn't the winner of a scholarship I applied to in October.

As if post-secondary wasn't already enough like a lottery.

#713

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:44 AM

Congratulations to Stephen Wells!

It's definitely an asteroid? I didn't know that. I was under the impression that it was still pretty undecided- and I had Walter Alvarez as a professor last semester.

Wow. I'll try to look for references sometime... might take till July, though.

I only made it to having a course by Rampino </kwok>

I sat for a second chewing on the obvious and the best thing I could think of to say was, "Interesting... which one were you again?"

:-D

Strikes me as a very good response!

Kevin, you look totally different in that picture! Not in a bad way or anything. Now I'm at a loss as to who you remind me of.

The young John Travolta? More generally, the type of American hero shown in Top Gun and the like. – There are people who look like this at 18, I think, but 26 isn't unexpected either, as far as I can tell.

(Heh. Fortunately I haven't watched most of Top Gun – Hot Shots is just so much better!)

and Tori would kill me if she knew I was trying to set her up, even in jest. oh, well. She doesn't read Pharyngula, so I'm safe.

<Homer Simpson>So far!</Homer Simpson>

You are at least a pleasant vision

Hehe... to you.

I might be like cilantro for all you know.

I think most people are.

So...just say exactly that. The only no's I would expect you to receive would be from those in relationships.

and, you know, people who are massively creeped out by strangers telling them they're cute, or otherwise offering unsolicited commentary on one's looks.

Unless you're planning on asking out people you already know, I'd suggest starting a normal conversation first.

QFT.

I just hope the Endless Thread doesn't turn into Chat Roulette.

No webcam :-)

(Photos of me are online, though. Just not on Facebook; I'm not on Facebook and have no intention of ever joining.)

Shaving the middle bit would just make it grow back thicker

Nope. Hair isn't grass that responds to grazing by branching and spreading.

try waxing it. it doesn't hurt. (really!)

o.O

O.o

O.O

for some reason, bright pinks and oranges make me anxious and angry

:-)

midwives treat a pregnant woman like an actual healthy person who should be monitored for risk factors, while OBs treat a pregnant woman like a medical catastrophe to be monitored for signs of health.

QFT (at least in the U.S., anyway)

Doesn't seem to be that bad over here.

I was once told by a cop to drive home (which was a good 40 minutes away) with only only one contact lens. scariest drive ever, got dizzy and nauseous in the process, but made it somehow.

:-S

So closing one eye or taking the remaining contact lens out didn't help?

I've occasionally had one glass falling out of damaged glasses. Very weird feeling.

I've seen and heard rabbits taken by hawks before. Nasty, don't want it happening in my back yard.

Yeah. Falcons kill their prey first; that's what the toothlike corners on the upper beak are for. Hawks including eagles don't bother; they just start eating.

Blue eyes, Blonde ...so you are race with those Monkeys color hair in Africa . .No human . no European color hairs that ways .. . I am very sure yo are smell too . . Do you see Black people .. the Xinhua Media told me Mongols created Black from Apes . . Blonde hairs from Monkeys that color . . .Please some time go to see your daddy in Africa !

Chinese kooks are the best, because they're even more dramatically underinformed than the Russian ones.

the Murphy amendment (repealing DADT) just passed in the House

:-)

Which of these theories is the most parsimonious and probable, best able to explain the watch as it appears? I'm going with number 5. Does anyone want to defend any of the others?

Number 5 suffers from the problem that faster-than-light travel and time travel seem to come in a package. So I wonder about 3 and 4, but of course those require insane amounts of coincidences.

4 is to be preferred over 3, simply because it so conveniently outsources the question of how the fuck intelligent life could have evolved that early.

Are there theories that I might have left out?

Hm... combinations of your 5 (time-travelling aliens and stuff), but of course those just pile up their components' unparsimonious assumptions.

I actually think we need to have the draft because the people who generate the most aggressive noise and make decisions about using the military are often the ones who have no family members who could be killed as a result. Spreading the risk would be very useful.

Except it wouldn't work. Experience shows that well-connected people always find ways to be declared incapable of joining the military or, at least, finding a cushy office job in it; and rich people tend to be well connected.

Plus I think that having young adults do mandatory national service in which they mix with people from vastly different backgrounds would be very useful.

That's called "public school"... :-) ...well, to some extent, and probably even less so in the USA.

Haldane's "falsification" of evolution bugs ¹ me. [...]

1: Yes, this was deliberate.

ROTFL!

If there's a draft, I agree. However, I'm opposed to a draft.

Seconded.

Because what else am I going to do at that point? Run, kill myself?

Run.

I would probably support a national service law, though. If it was something like Germany's where you can serve in the military or in a social service capacity.

Cheap, horribly unqualified, forced labor that prevents the creation of jobs for qualified people.

Should the rules say that women who are pregnant or nursing shouldn't have to be drafted? What if a woman has a 2 year old she would be nursing if she could, but for various reasons cannot? I hate the idea of the draft in general, but it seems like a female draft would have extra issues.

Well, how is that handled in Israel?

In fact, he got up on his extended arms, looking around, wobbly but bright-eyed and on his game!

:-o Wow.

it's about time more high school grads started realizing what the value is to serving their country from a legislative standpoint. Maybe then we will start getting some legislators that aren't just in it for their own personal religious agendas, to get on some rezoning committee to bolster their real estate values, or some lawyer trying to change the laws slightly to increase their fucking caseloads.

Uh –

How would any kind of draft make people "realize what the value is to serving their country"?!?

#714

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:49 AM

To elaborate...

and, you know, people who are massively creeped out by strangers telling them they're cute, or otherwise offering unsolicited commentary on one's looks.

Telling people what amounts to "you're fuckable, I want to fuck you some day" is a great way to creep them out and make them avoid your presence forever, unless they're already interested.

Fortunately I'm not speaking from experience at either end of this.

#715

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 7:58 AM

So closing one eye or taking the remaining contact lens out didn't help?oh god, are you kidding me? if i took out the other lens, I'd run into the nearest tree immediately; I'm can't see shit without lenses.

And I did try driving with one eye closed, but lack of peripheral vision freaks me out.

#716

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:04 AM

erm. blockquote fail, but I think it's still decipherable...

#717

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:35 AM

oh god, are you kidding me?

That's why I asked a mostly rhetorical question, just to make sure. Wasn't entirely clear, sorry.

#718

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:38 AM

I just had kohlrabi soup. :-9

See you all later, I'll work.

#719

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:39 AM

Nope. Hair isn't grass that responds to grazing by branching and spreading.

Really? The whole "shaving makes the hair grow back thicker" thing is something I always heard growing up. But maybe it's just another old wives' tale (albeit a slightly less obvious one than "masturbation makes you go blind", and the like).

#720

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:43 AM

I'll work.

You too, Walton!!!

But maybe it's just another old wives' tale

"Thicker", as in "thicker individual hairs", is imaginable. What I heard was "denser", as in "more hairs per area" – and that's true for grass but not for hair. Cutting a hair off doesn't release any hormones, so no new follicles are formed.

#721

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:46 AM

Actually, I don't know how "thicker" would work either. Pulling hairs out should trigger a lot of stuff, but cutting them off? How? Hair is just keratin.

#722

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:51 AM

Telling people what amounts to "you're fuckable, I want to fuck you some day"

Of course, that's not what people may first associate with the word "cute". Some may feel you regard them as a baby, but yourself as an adult...

Or maybe it's just me. I know that tens of millions of guys call their girlfriends "baby", and I sort of but not quite get why.

And now I'm going to work as promised.

#723

Posted by: Feynmaniac, Chimerical Toad Superhero Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 8:59 AM

Really? The whole "shaving makes the hair grow back thicker" thing is something I always heard growing up. But maybe it's just another old wives' tale (albeit a slightly less obvious one than "masturbation makes you go blind", and the like).

Yeah. From the all-knowing Wikipedia:

Shaving does not cause hair to grow back thicker or coarser or darker. This belief is due to the fact that hair that has never been cut has a tapered end, whereas, after cutting, there is no taper. Thus, it appears thicker, and feels coarser due to the sharper, unworn edges.[54] Hair can also appear darker after it grows back because hair that has never been cut is often lighter due to sun exposure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_misconceptions

The are other interesting examples in that article.

#724

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 9:03 AM

The reason people think that hair shaved grows back thicker is that under normal conditions, the ends of a hair are worn so as to be tapered. When you lop off a hair, the end is blunt and not yet tapered, so it feels (and is) thicker than the end of a hair that's been out and getting battered around for a while. If hair that was cut became permanently thicker, we'd all be walking around with steel cables growing out of our heads, which I think we can agree does not appear to be the case.

#725

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 9:29 AM

Am home from performance no. 2 of Tempest, and I'm sad to say I'm not enjoying it anywhere near as much as I'd hoped.

It's a combination of the role - a dead-straight one in a show surrounded by outrageous comedy, redemption and a romance not that far removed from Romeo & Juliet in its ability to evoke a response from an audience - and the fact that I've just not managed to bond with the cast enough to feel comfortable around them off-stage.

And it's bothering me, because I need to really enjoy theatre or there's absolutely no point to doing it. If I just want to put in hard, thankless work and be ignored by a cast once the curtain's come down I'll stick to doing backstage crew.

I guess the problem is that I don't know when I audition for a show whether or not I'm going to enjoy the people side of it. That can be okay if the role I'm playing is worth it - if that's the case I don't give a tinker's cuss whether or not I get on with people; I'm there because of the part.

While I've learned a lot from doing this show I don't know if it's been worth the disappointment on the personal level.

#726

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 9:43 AM

Great news on Ebola from the world of engineered drugs.

And an interesting New York Times op-ed on the government keeping really useful data secret for no apparent reason.

#727

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 10:01 AM

I suspect the "hair grows back thicker after shaving" myth has some of its roots in the ritual of shaving while going through puberty. Boys shave their faces just as the body is slowly ramping up the facial hair production.

Same with those folks who shave their legs.

But that's just a supposition.

#728

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 10:22 AM

Wowbagger: I love acting. Probably should have stuck with it. But the people in theatre I did not love too much. I say it's still worth doing, but that probably reflects my own regret.

#729

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 10:38 AM

Rambling on...

Yeah, I think what it comes down to is how much do you like being onstage, trying to create that moment or experience for the audience. If you love that then it's worth it. Cast to cast, crew to crew, you may work with new and different people. Role to role you'll be doing different things.That's all very temporary and tied to place and time.

The beautiful moments are everything to me! I'm willing to overlook most things in between them.

#730

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 10:46 AM

@Ol'Greg:

I used to do Improv in college - its a lot different from acting, but still a TON of fun.

#731

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:01 AM

Improv is lots of fun. I actually used to love comedic acting actually. I like creating weird and disturbing characters that make people laugh... sometimes awkwardly.

#732

Posted by: Kevin Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:07 AM

I have horrible performance anxiety - I can't give speeches or do anything like that, but I was a natural with Improv, mostly because I knew I was supposed to be making a fool of myself, so I couldn't actually mess anything up.

#733

Posted by: Knockgoats Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:14 AM

The draft essentially presupposes that citizens are the property of the state - Walton

Walton, you need to argue this rather than simply asserting it. While there is no doubt that in some respects, compulsory military service resembles slavery, in others it does not: in general conscripts are paid, cannot be sold, can marry, sue, make wills, agree to contracts..., and conscripts into current European armies do not lose their rights to vote, join political parties, or (within limits) express their views publicly.

#734

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:17 AM

Comedic acting is my favorite, Kevin. I like to create strange characters that make people laugh...

usually awkwardly. Always have. I'm surprised I didn't start doing stand up. I guess I was more involved with my music at that time. I love that too. May actually be playing in a couple months (we'll see, I've been flaked out on by these people before).

I'd like to get involved in local opera actually. Eventually... adding that to a very long list of activities.

#735

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:20 AM

Haha... my first draft went through anyway. Weird. I cancelled it.

Well... if it's worth saying once...

*shrugs*

#736

Posted by: kiyaroru Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:23 AM

Concerning bacon
(big box grocery store house-brand)

raw bacon: 498.7g

bacon fat: 95.6g
cooked bacon: 138.8g

Over half (by weight) was water!
What's up with that?

#737

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:26 AM

I note we now have a Pharyngula facebook page. For all the good that will do us.

Cue people going through the "likers" trying to figure out who is who....

As to Improv and stage performances, the only live performance I can remember I ever gave was in grade 6, when in Music class I gave an interpretation of this classic piece of german "new wave".

Dont judge a book by its cover please.

#738

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:26 AM

WARNING

Shameless self promotion ahead


If any Charleston, SC Pharyngulites or visiting Pharyngulites are free from 6-8 pm tonight, I have a photography show opening at 16 Penny Gallery (back of 52.5 records) on King street.

Come by and see a chimp free in the wild.

/shameless self promotion over

#739

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:29 AM

The draft essentially presupposes that citizens are the property of the state

I'll argue it. A little. Because I don't want to lose my job because of SIWOTI... lol

But getting drafted is complete control of a period of your life. Especially in war time. You may have some rights as a citizen that are retained, but your right to avoid bodily harm and/or death in war has just been waived. What more serious right is there? You no longer can do anything you might have hoped to, and you can not escape the psychological impact of war. That represents to me a complete loss of freedom although it is not complete slavery per se, after all you are compensated although you are not given any choice (offer you can't refuse comes to mind).

To me it is no more appropriate than if the government started an organ harvest program and could randomly compel people to donate bone marrow, a kidney, or a lung.

The question I guess is who owns your body and your time. The person or the state?

#740

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:34 AM

Rorschach you're painfully interesting sometimes :P

...

Oh and to clarify the thing I said at last:

I guess to me it comes down to these questions: are you as an individual at liberty to willfully form your own contract with the state basted on your individual preferences for life and wellness?

Or are you a component part of the state, granted a degree of liberty unless something supersedes at which point your consent is forfeit?

#741

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:39 AM

The idea that mandatory civil service is somehow slavery is an idea I find somewhat specious when one considers that usually the main reason the draft has been opposed is its propensity to stick folks into life-threatening situations they don't want to get into.

Non-military civil service is presumably non-lethal.

I find that sort of argument against mandatory civil service, which, unlike the draft, is an idea that I'm fine with, is tantamount to saying 'well, I shouldn't have to get a job if I don't want to' or 'I shouldn't have to contribute to society if I don't want to' or 'I have the right to be a lazy, selfish piece of shit'.

#742

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:45 AM

And the idea that somehow mandatory civil service means the state owns you rather than yourself is an idea I find a little silly - I subscribe to the government-as-contract idea, where in exchange for state protection you occasionally have to cough up a little money to the state (perhaps the libertarians can see it as paying a security firm for their protection; however, one can negotiate how much one has to pay, but the truth is that the government could not survive without taxes), and mandatory civil service for maybe a year is not something I see as a terrible interruption of one's time, provided that one is appropriately cared for, with shelter, a measure of security, food, and access to medical and psychological care, at the very least.

#743

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:45 AM

basted = based.

Mmmmm... turkey.

#744

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:54 AM

'I have the right to be a lazy, selfish piece of shit'

I strongly support this though. I believe I do have that right and I want others to have it.

That right comes with unavoidable consequences to the individual and to the community, but to me the methods by which one removes the right to be a loser have more negative consequences than dealing with the losers.

You have to define and find the losers, you have to determine what ability they have to be better than they are. What makes a lazy selfish person? What is behind their choice? Will compelling them to service result in service you want or need?

What is a real disability? How much is social? Can they be rehabilitated? Should they? If not, what do you do with them? Are these questions to be answered by the government? I would prefer that be kept to a minimum as much as possible.

I'm not so libertarian that I think there should be no support from the state at all, but I suppose I am enough to ask that support of the state be voluntary and limited mostly to taxation and/or voluntary service/employment.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I said that well.

#745

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 11:54 AM

The idea that mandatory civil service is somehow slavery is an idea I find somewhat specious when one considers that usually the main reason the draft has been opposed is its propensity to stick folks into life-threatening situations they don't want to get into.

Who argued against mandatory civil service as alternative to military service ?

To give a different perspective, Germany has a draft of sorts, it's now I think down to 9 months or so military service, and alternatively 12 months civil service.(At the time I was faced with this in the 80s, it was 20 months civil vs 15 military or so).At the same time, you can do a career military thing, and only those will get sent into war situations.
I think that's a reasonable way of solving the problem, the people that can't stand the idea of being part of the military have an opt-out option, while the ones who are cool with it can do it, without running the danger of getting shipped off into some warzone while ill-prepared for whats required, you leave that to the career folks.

I resent the idea of some moron ordering me around, who himself has been ordered around by some political type to order me around, to do something I can not support or might do differently, so military wasnt for me.And I was glad I had the opt-out option, although back in the 80s it still involved going before some weird ex-war-vet tribunal, where half the guys were missing a limb or 2, to argue your case.
Did 20 months restocking shelves in an Intensive Care unit, shagged the unit manager, got me into medicine eventually, and was an awesome time all around.

#746

Posted by: kiyaroru Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:03 PM

In Canada, if you are summoned for jury duty you are legally required to participate in the process. That is, you must appear at the specified time to be selected for (or rejected from) the panel. Or you must contact the Court to have your jury duty postponed.

I know this is not quite the same as being shipped away somewhere to shoot or be shot but it kind of feels like the Government owns me, sometimes.

#747

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:23 PM

Meh... I keep saying things that aren't very clear. I guess what I mean is that the bar for what defines a loser should be related to acute social impact.

People who directly hurt others, who directly steal their property... have to be dealt with and that is an important function of any state.

People who leach off of the system are much harder to define and take care of.

Not to mention that they leach off of their community whether there is state support or not, which impacts the health of the state anyway.

Now offering compulsory civil service as an alternative to active duty does seem much more sensible provided there's a good diverse body of civil service to choose from.

However for that to work you need to have a developed government that is not only focused on military action. I don't see it happening in the US, and frankly even the words "civil service" in the US have a darkly authoritarian ring to them. I think pretty much of the police and or emergency and fire services. I'm not sure many of our other government offices (and I REALLY don't know if I'm correct here) aren't so eviscerated that they couldn't actually manage the influx of people working for them. But I suppose that would correct itself in time.

Also civil service should be financially compensated. Two years serving a wildlife conservation effort sponsored by the government, for instance, as an alternative to serving in war reaches that point where civil service begins to resemble elective employment.

At that point it loses the qualities I'm talking about.


#748

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:32 PM

Also civil service should be financially compensated.

The pay I got was tuppence, but same as the military guys got.That was fair enough.

#749

Posted by: Knockgoats Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:35 PM

The question I guess is who owns your body and your time. The person or the state? - Ol'Greg

This is the classic glibertarian false dichotomy (I'm not accusing you of being one, Ol'Greg). The answer is: neither.

#750

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:39 PM

Ol' Greg, I get the notion that I haven't possibly thought this through completely, and that makes sense. I'm glad that you've clarified your position.

That right comes with unavoidable consequences to the individual and to the community, but to me the methods by which one removes the right to be a loser have more negative consequences than dealing with the losers.

You have to define and find the losers, you have to determine what ability they have to be better than they are. What makes a lazy selfish person? What is behind their choice? Will compelling them to service result in service you want or need?

I agree, and I think said methods need careful examination before implemented.

Rorschach, I was under the impression that you considered both to be depriving of one's ownership of one's self. I'm probably wrong on that.

I wouldn't want to be part of a unit where I could get severely disciplined for not doing something that, say, might land one in a Nuremberg sort of situation (while not as extreme) where not only is the action unethical, but you cannot be excused for following orders. As someone in a field where truth is prized and at least in theory is supposed to be very much non-authoritarian, I find unquestioning submission to authority or submission to authority without justification to be anathema to freedom. I agree on this. But there are lots of things one can do in the United States that don't have that dark ring - public health, for example.

#751

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:40 PM

This is the classic glibertarian false dichotomy (I'm not accusing you of being one, Ol'Greg). The answer is: neither.

Well, no, the person owns their body, but I think this is a shitty question to ask for a number of reasons.

#752

Posted by: nigelTheBold Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:44 PM

Also civil service should be financially compensated.

Why?

It seems the compensation for the typical civil service (jury duty) is a functioning society. Seems like a fair trade-off to me.

#753

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:52 PM

but I think this is a shitty question to ask for a number of reasons.

Well, we're listening ?

#754

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 12:57 PM

All this draft talk reminds me :

Let the sunshine in

#755

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:01 PM

Let's see what I can do to best elucidate the reasons I think the question of whether the state or you owns your body in response to the idea of civil service is silly.

Yes, you own your body. The state does not own you. At the same time, as said before, I view government protection as something of a contract. You give to it, it gives to you. You have something it needs, it has something you need. I agree that certain forms of civil service that leave you otherwise without access to a source of money (jury duty, as far as I'm aware, does not really remove you from such long enough, depending on the case) should compensate a person. If the state 'owned' you, you would probably have virtually no negotiating power. But it doesn't, and a government is also made up of people (it's not a big amorphous entity, it's essentially a collection of people), and if you have grievances against the way it's treating you, then at least in theory you can say 'look, there's a problem with this, can you change what you're doing?' If they think 'no, your reasons don't make very good sense', then no, they're not going to change it. If they think 'sure, your reasons make sense, let's change it', they'll probably want to change it.

I think the question of bodily ownership raised here, in this context, makes some inaccurate assumptions about the nature of interaction between the person and the state and the nature of the state itself.

#756

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:02 PM

I really want to get involved in this discussion properly... but I have to do some more work (considering it's three days till my finals start), so that I have time to go to Richard Dawkins' talk at the Union this evening.

#757

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:03 PM

PZ, can you ban Walton temporarily until he's done studying?

#758

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:06 PM

Caine @631:

Your story reminded me of an experience I had while at a forest fire up in Idaho. I was working as a security 2 (no gun) staffing a checkpoint on a fairly busy road (two towns and a hot springs on the fire side of the pass (it is amazing how many people see a four-mile-high column of smoke, slurry bombers and fire trucks and have no clue it is a forest fire)). The place was crawling with chipmunks (on a couple of occasions, they crawled onto my foot in their effort to beg for food (no, didn't feed them, but others had, apparently)). There were also a couple of young red-tail hawks in the area.

A chipmunk was squatting in the middle of the road munching some seeds. I looked up to see the hawks fold their wings and start to descend. The chipmunk was oblivious. Clueless. Just begging to be removed from the gene pool.

One hawk slammed into the paved road about a foot from the chipmunk. It (the hawk) bounced up in the air and came down on his feet, shaking his head. The chipmunk finally realized that sitting in the open was not healthy and headed for the underbrush. The second hawk came down at high speed and was lined up perfectly to grab the rodent. The second hawk apparently also had problems with depth perception as he grazed his feet on the pavement and faceplanted hard.

The two young hawks stood in the road for about ten minutes (I actually had to guide a brush pumper around them) and then flew away. Not very steady in flight, either.

Now, to be fair, the weather was weird -- brown sky, bright sun but no shadows -- so it may have messed them up for depth, but it was amusing.

#759

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:09 PM

Also, every state is different. The United States is not the EU, and the EU is not the United States, and neither of them are Iraq.

#760

Posted by: Rorschach Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:18 PM

The United States is not the EU, and the EU is not the United States, and neither of them are Iraq.

Captain Obvious, to the rescue !

#761

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:21 PM

Part of me wants to join in on the discussion regarding mandatory military/civil service but, as I volunteered for the army, and am now career civil service, I'm not sure I'd have anything useful to say.

Ah, screw it. I have no problem with a draft as long as there are no, repeat zero, non-criminal deferments. Everybody, male, female, rich, poor, middle class, all religions, all ethnicities, serves for a set period of time. And that, for me, is where it would break down -- no way can you train a soldier to be effective in combat in one year.

Yeah, when I was in, Basic was eight weeks and then AIT was anything from 12 weeks to 2 years, but if anyone thought that a soldier straight out of Infantry or Armor AIT was ready for combat was in fantasyland. Even veteran soldiers, before going to a combat assignment, are given refresher courses, lessons learned courses, and additional training.

Which would mean, to me, that those in civil service draft positions would most likely serve for a shorter period of time (there would be far more civil than military because lack of health care and obesity already removes 1/3 to 1/2 of 18-year-olds from military eligibility). The right would freak, though not over service times -- the idea of drafting women and (more important) the children of the rich would put the kybosh on that double quick.

Just my two cents. Sorry for rambling. Feel free to tear my bullshit apart.

--Ovorbis

#762

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:23 PM

Part of my frustration is that a whole lot of people don't seem to see the government for what it is. Many of them have probably never had family members who were feds. They depersonalize the government.

Both of my parents are, in essence, part of 'the government'. They work for two different federal agencies of two different Departments. I can tell you that within 'the government', there is a gigantic diversity of opinion, which probably ranges all the way to wingnuttery on both sides, and that some different parts of 'the government' occasionally get disgusted with different parts of 'the government' - my father, who works for the Census Bureau, was one of the people who got frustrated when a handful of weird-ass politicians decided to ask about citizenship status, and they managed to stop it - 'the government' is not a monolith.

#763

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:27 PM

Yes, Rorschach, that should be obvious, but to people who color 'the state' as 'the state' (a generic term which doesn't really take into account differences between individual states; I don't intend to sound culturally relativistic about this, because I'm not and I think cultural relativism is one of the very few dumb things to come out of modern liberalism - and I'm a liberal, myself - but there are certain nuances one has to be aware of) and not as 'The United States' or 'The European Union' or 'Iraq' or 'Japan' or 'Bolivia' or 'Russia' or 'The People's Soviet Buddhist Arctic Jamahiriya of Northern Everywhereistan', somehow I don't think it is.

#764

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:37 PM

Katharine-

I wouldn't want to be part of a unit where I could get severely disciplined for not doing something that, say, might land one in a Nuremberg sort of situation (while not as extreme) where not only is the action unethical, but you cannot be excused for following orders.
On the contrary, the UCMJ is quite specific about this. The reason you can be held accountable for war crimes is because you have the right to refuse an unlawful order. It might not be easy to do, but nevertheless you have the right.

See the explanation of Article 90, for example:

An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.
#765

Posted by: Katharine Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:42 PM

Katrina, here's the problem - in theory, this article is fine, but in practice, let's use the example of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. I am pretty sure this war defies a passel of laws, and I occasionally wonder if someone's going to eventually find that whoever's responsible for this war did something illegal. Until then, someone in a position of having to obey an order has almost no way of knowing what's going to happen to them. It may not be as clear-cut as Nuremberg was.

#766

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:43 PM

Ogvorbis:

The second hawk apparently also had problems with depth perception as he grazed his feet on the pavement and faceplanted hard.

That was a lucky chipmunk. I've seen juvenile hawks do the miss and get that WTF look, it's pretty funny. On the other hand, I've recently seen Northern Harriers hunting, and their roll and dives on the way to a kill are remarkably graceful.

#767

Posted by: iambilly Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:52 PM

Caine:

A few years back, we had some breeding pairs of kestrels at the park. I remember talking with a group of old people (over 50) and they suddenly glanced above me, their eyes went wide open, I heard a 'thud' and was showered with pigeon blood. Then the feathers came drifting down as the kestrel flew away with the now-dead pigeon. I'm always amazed at the accuracy of raptors, whether hitting something on the ground or in flight. Though I shouldn't be. After all, the blind ones rarely reproduce.

-Ogvorbis.

#768

Posted by: Katrina Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 1:52 PM

Katharine, I agree that there's a world of difference between "unlawful" and "unethical".

There are other definitions of what it takes for a military order to be "lawful" depending on who gave the order. It was explained to me that the intent was to protect the "little guy" and keep the accountability upon the shoulders of the order-issuer.


If you are interested, here is a short discussion about the definition of "unlawful" as used in the UDMJ by people with much better understanding than I.

#769

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:02 PM

Walton:

"Mandatory civil service" is no more justified than "mandatory military service". Both of them rest on the idea that citizens are the property of the state, and that the state is entitled to require them to work for it and to serve its objectives. This is wrong in any free society.
Nobody is trying to justify one over the other. If once could choose either civil service or military service as their compulsory service to the State, then I don't really have a problem with it. There are almost as many opportunities in civil service and the military combined as there are in the private sector, and it's only indentured servitude if you force a job on someone.

I happen to see citizenship as a form of contract with the State for protection and common good. We all have a responsibility to pay into that common good via our taxes, but how do we assure that someone will be there to collect those taxes?

This is what you're not getting - mandatory civil service (if chosen over mandatory military service) would help the government to run much more efficiently because it would not have to try so hard to lure the professionals into low-paying government jobs. They could just get the entry-level folks to do much of the dirty work and pay the multi-year pros what they really should be making - thus, making the government much more competitive for skilled work.

But this is all fairy-tale talk because this simply does not happen.

Besides, having an option of either military or civil service would stop people from saying "thank you for your service" to military volunteers but not to police officers, firefighters, and EMT's. I decided to serve my country in the military, but they decided I was too gay for that. So now I serve my country as an EMT, helping to save lives, but nobody seems to want to count it. I don't see the difference.

#770

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:02 PM

Katharine, my mother worked for the government for years.

Most of my close friends work in defense, electively of course, under contract with the US government. I'm not sure what you think that has to do with it. We're talking about being compelled by power of law to do something, essentially for some it would be rock vs. hard place.

I do think that whatever you do with your own self comes down to a question of physical control of that self.

Who determines it and to what extent?

I don't see it as an irrelevant question. What is the value of your work, you life, your body for the time contracted and for the amount of danger that body will be placed in?

How much control can you exert over that vs the needs of the government?

Should the government say "no you must do this and fuck anything else you had going for you."

As iambilly said, it must be unilaterally applied too. Meh, that's likely...

#771

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:18 PM

an interesting New York Times op-ed on the government keeping really useful data secret for no apparent reason

That's normal. Secret services keep everything top secret by default, just in case... :-(

I find that sort of argument against mandatory civil service, which, unlike the draft, is an idea that I'm fine with, is tantamount to saying 'well, I shouldn't have to get a job if I don't want to'

There aren't enough jobs left for everyone anyway.

We can argue what should be done about this. We can argue what unemployment benefits should look like or what should replace them; but the time when full employment was even theoretically possible are simply over. So, yes, you should have the right to not seek a job and still not starve.

or 'I shouldn't have to contribute to society if I don't want to'

That's a slippery-slope argument. Paying taxes, fine. But unqualified forced labor that prevents creation of jobs for qualified people? Is that even a contribution?

or 'I have the right to be a lazy, selfish piece of shit'.

Well... within limits, you have that right. My freedom to swing my fist ends at your nose; but as long as I don't hit your nose, I have the right to swing my fist around just for the fun of it.

#772

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:26 PM

mandatory civil service (if chosen over mandatory military service) would help the government to run much more efficiently because it would not have to try so hard to lure the professionals into low-paying government jobs.

Alternatively, the government could just pay more.

What do you mean "there's no money"? We've talked about the useless expenses for the military before. In any halfway rich country, money is a question of political will, nothing more.

#773

Posted by: Ol'Greg Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:35 PM

mandatory civil service (if chosen over mandatory military service) would help the government to run much more efficiently because it would not have to try so hard to lure the professionals into low-paying government jobs.

In what country? Government jobs are pretty sought after here. Even those that pay low wages have a lot of competition because they offer good benefits and a lot more stability than other low wage jobs. Also the lowest paying of them still beats the pay at Walmart. I guess it depends on the job itself though. There are those that are harder on the employee and the government is slow to recognize the need for greater compensation. I don't see how forcing people into that dynamic corrects that in any good way. Taxes should be raised or used more efficiently to pay appropriate wages :/

So now I serve my country as an EMT, helping to save lives, but nobody seems to want to count it.

Really? Now that is not right at all. I mean that is a shame, not that you are incorrect btw.

#774

Posted by: deriamis Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:42 PM

David Marjanović:

Alternatively, the government could just pay more.
They will never be competitive with jobs in the open market, so why would they try? You seem to forget that governments have a fixed income relative to a corporation that can bilk its customers out of millions of dollars.

What do you mean "there's no money"? We've talked about the useless expenses for the military before. In any halfway rich country, money is a question of political will, nothing more.
Spending more money on employees does not mean spending less on waste and vice-versa. We should be spending more efficiently. I would agree that a government should be spending money on its employees commensurate with what the external job market does, but that isn't the subject. I'm talking about someone doing the jobs that make the government more efficient.

Imagine, for a moment, that there were a mandatory period of service to your country, in either a military or civil fashion. You get to choose how, what, and to some extent when you do this, but let's say that your government decided to position itself as a workforce training opportunity for recent college graduates. So, you get your degree in accounting and you get paid as an entry-level clerk in the government.

You do well and you are promoted a couple of times, and now, after your period of mandatory service (say, a year?), you can choose to either stay within your current organization, choose a different part of the government to work within, or go out into the private sector. Hey, now it's easier to get a job because you have experience in your field! Not only that, but you have been trained in the best practices of your industry for practically free! Not only that, but you now see your government as an entity to be improved and you might have a bit more respect for the polling booth.

See? No slavery or indentured servitude. You got to choose what you did at every step of the way and you even came out of the whole thing better off than you started. Now all your government has to do is to work really hard at promoting from within - it doesn't have to try nearly so hard to advertise jobs in the open market where it really can't compete.

Again, this is all fairy-tale talk. It probably ain't gonna happen.

#775

Posted by: Caine, Fleur du mal OM Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 2:42 PM

Ogvorbis:

Then the feathers came drifting down as the kestrel flew away with the now-dead pigeon.

It's amazing to see. The doves have been hard hit here in little Almont the last couple of years. We had a pair of red-tail hawks take up residence and I've see a pair of Harriers hanging out too. I come across the feather piles quite often but so far, I've avoided the shower of blood scenario. I have two pairs of mating mourning doves in our trees, so I'm hoping they stay safe.

#776

Posted by: Mattir Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:08 PM

We seem to have some bluejays nesting near our house, and twice in the last week we've seen the jays mobbing a barred owl through the yard. I wouldn't feel too harshly for the hawks who nail prey - they get harried pretty mercilessly in between meals. DaughterSpawn is a hawk enthusiast and when we're driving around, she spots them getting harried at least a couple times a week.

(Yes, I know that no one here is really grudging the raptors their meals.)

#777

Posted by: Walton Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:21 PM

Richard Dawkins' talk was very good. I'll post more details in a couple of days.

Now back to work for me. (I'm proud of myself for heroically resisting further involvement in this interesting political argument...)

#778

Posted by: David Marjanović Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:27 PM

MR MYERS! SHUT DOWN THIS SUBTHREAD!!!

They will never be competitive with jobs in the open market

What, if anything, makes you think so? Why does anyone work for the government?

let's say that your government decided to position itself as a workforce training opportunity for recent college graduates

~:-| OK. Wake me up when that happens. I'm going back to work.

#779

Posted by: PZ Myers Author Profile Page | May 28, 2010 4:50 PM

YESSIR. Consider it BUMPED.

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