Aug
22
Sabathia makes Yankee history
ByBy holding the Mariners scoreless for six innings before the rains came this afternoon, Yankee ace CC Sabathia quietly set a franchise record. With his 16th consecutive start of at least six innings and no more than three earned runs, CC broke a tie with Ron Guidry for the longest such streak in franchise history.
Gator’s streak came during his 1978 Cy Young Award winning season, and as Sabathia piles up the traditional counting stats, his Cy candidacy will grow stronger. I’m not sure I’d give it to him, but just being in the discussion is enough to make me happy.
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CC Sabathia: True Ace.
CC Sabathia: True
AceYANKEE.FTFY.
I’m not sure I’d give it to him, but just being in the discussion is enough to make me happy
All sorts of this
CC doesn’t deserve the Cy Young right now but he is so awesome and I’m really really glad he’s a Yankee.
It wouldn’t be as bad a decision today as it would have been a week or two ago. After his start today, CC moves into the top 5 in the AL in ERA (tied with CJ Wilson for 5th). The only one ahead of him in ERA that you could really say is better would be Felix Hernandez. Let’s see where everyone ends up at the end of the season before we criticize who won.
Agreed. That’s why I said “right now.” I’d like nothing more than for CC to go on a crazy run of like seven CGSHO with tons of strikeouts and no walks and be a no-doubt winner for both the MSM and the saber people (well… other than the Yankees winning #28 this year
).
His era is now just a hair above 3. One more dominant start drops it into the 2′s!
One of these days Rob Neyer might consider CC to be in the same class as Haren, Lincecum, Greinke, Ubaldo and the Cardinals’ guys.
Hmmm?
Or was that just from a general Yankee-bashing article when the Yankees signed him?
No, it was in a chat this year (multiple chats I believe). I included his comments in the post below.
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....due-31472/
My favorite comment from that thread:
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ent-962074
LOL was he just typing out random numbers? o_O
(Also, Andy Pettitte is not underrated.)
I also liked seeing Januz champion the case of Josh Johnson. I thought pitchers from losing teams sucked and shouldn’t win the Cy Young?
It’s funny, as much as I use advanced statistics to rate pitchers, I surprise myself when I realize even I don’t always buy into them. For example, I don’t believe that Haren, Lincecum, Greinke, nor Chris Carpenter are actually better pitchers than CC. I certainly wouldn’t pick them to pitch the 7th game of the World Series over CC.
Greinke had a fabulous year in 2009, yet he has a seven-year career to review. It’s not hard to spot the outlier on his pitching record because it’s a significant UFO. My guess is he never gets back to what he did in 2009, but will still be a good pitcher. He gets credit for that great year, but I don’t rate him a better pitcher than CC. Lincecum has been amazing, yet there was concern if his pitching arm will hold up and maintain what he’s done in ’08 and ’09. There is reason for concern here. He may be a very good (even great once again) pitcher, but right now he’s not better than CC. Plus, put CC back in the NL and Lincecum in the AL East, and I don’t even think we’re having this discussion. Ditto for Carpenter and Haren. I’ve seen both pitch in the AL and they were solid, but I’m discounting part of their success as NL influenced. Considering that Rob Neyer likes to take digs at the NL reguarly, referring to it as AAAA baseball, or calling the AL the Big Boy league, I’m surprised he’d rate Carpenter and Haren ahead of CC. I don’t.
if he ends up with 20 wins and an era around 2.80 (which is possible), i can’t fault the voters for giving it to him.
If he ends up with 20 wins and an ERA around 2.80, I don’t see how you CAN’T give it to him.
Because somebody else who didn’t have 20 wins had an ERA around 2.40 and pitched more innings and more innings per start and allowed fewer baserunners and was altogether more dominant, team-dependent statistics aside?
Exactly. All other candidates aside, what are the odds of a guy with a record around .500 beating out a guy with 20 wins and a sub-3.00 ERA, even if he is the better pitcher?
Depends on who is voting, but likely not good. That doesn’t change the fact that such a voting pattern is idiotic.
Less than one percent.
The Laptop Stealer is making a strong case, as he’s about to go 15-5 and lower his ERA to about 2.2. Of course, he hasn’t pitched the number of innings as King Felix* or CC and some other guys, but his BABIP suggest he’s been a bit lucky. I have no doubt the Boston media will try to pump him up.
*BTW I love players who have point-to-the-CF type of names, but actually live up to their names. We can use the name King Felix and not question it. Wayne Gretzky entered the NHL as the Great Gretzky, and no one blinked an eye. Big Game James Shields? Not so much.
CC is beasting.
Off the Riesling.
And his n#$%a just made it out the precinct.
I’d have no problems at all if CC gets the Cy, and I don’t think non Yankees fans should either…CC would have a 2.5 also if he made half his starts at safeco this year
ERA+ is ballpark-adjusted. King Felix: 161, CC: 129.
So, no.
But if CC pitched for Seattle, he would pitch against the Angels and Oakland instead of Tampa and Toronto (assuming that Texas and Boston would even out).
Felix also does not get to face his own team, which is the worst hitting team in the league.
CC doesn’t have to face the Yanks, either.
I question the ballpark adjustments of ERA+ as they relate to CC. Go to ESPN Park Factors and see where Yankee Stadium rates, then factor in CC’s pitching record there. Something is off. He should be getting more of an uplift.
If CC pitches this well till the end of the season, he would have an ERA around 2.8ish, along with 20ish wins along with the idea that down the stretch, he threw quality start (real quality, not the stat) after quality start. He may not be the one who deserves it the most, but it wouldn’t be a travesty, it would be ok.
I would love to see CC get his ERA into the 2′s. If he continues to be this good until the end of the season I wouldnt be that surprised to see him get the Cy, you never know.
Also lets go Marcum, 3 IP no hits against the sox so far.
Who’s Marcum pitching against?
Buchholz
Who?
IETC
Love CC, but can’t you make the argument that Lee, Hernandez, Weaver, Liriano, and Lester have all been better this year.
Lee and Hernandez have been better. Weaver, Liriano, and Lester? Close but not quite, CC’s been slightly better than they have.
And you left out Carl Pavano.
Carl Pavano’s resurrection is quite the story. Don’t we all want to see him take the mound in YS in October? I think it might even call for a full blown newsmagazine special.
Frontline: Frontline
You know who else is damn good… CLAY BUCHHOLZ.
I’m not so sure Lester beats Buchholz in Cy Young votes this year. I can only hope that Hughes becomes that good by the end of next season.
Buchholz has been impressive but he’s not as deserving of CYA votes as Lester. His peripherals don’t match his results.
I thought that was a sarcastic post. I would have said the same thing as Bex. Buchholz has a very low BABIP and Hughes has a better xFIP.
I don’t get xFIP, why would we expect Hughes’ HR rate to normalize as long as he’s pitching in YSIII?
Your comment implies that Hughes’ HR/FB is artificially inflated due to YSIII and would be expected to stay high.
It’s not–it’s currently sitting at 9.0%, and xFIP normalizes to 10.6%
Personally, I don’t put too much stock into xFIP, especially for starters, as I don’t think HR/FB is just luck–CC has thrown over 2000 innings with a career 8.4% HR/FB
Oh ok, with his performance the past few months I expected it to exceed xFIP.
If it was sarcastic I got whooshed. :X
If Hughes became “as good as Buchholz” next year his K/9 would drop from 7.4 to 6.0 and his BB/9 would increase from 2.4 to 3.4. Plus there’s no way Buchholz can maintain a 0.5 HR/9 rate as his norm was 1.3 the previous 2 seasons. The difference in ERA between them is mainly the HR. So please Mo forbid Hughes is ever as good as Buchholz.
His stats suggest a bit of luck is mixed in with his record this year, similar to Dice-K a couple of years back. Not saying the laptop stealer is not a good pitcher, but he’s not as good as his numbers indicate. He’ll most likely regress in 2011, if not over the final month.
It depends what metrics you’re using. I’d make that argument. tsjc wouldn’t but that’s because he loves his IP/S. ;P
I wasn’t even aware he had this streak going
CC is ninja like
Lester got rocked last time out. His ERA for that game was 40.50 trust me I know because that is the ERA for the day on my fantasy team LOL. CC is having a better season than Lester, Liriano, Pavano and Weaver IMO. And if Lee keeps getting hit around a bit like his last few starts then I think it will be down to CC and King Felix.
And despite that horrid start, he still has a better WHIP, a much better K/9, and a decently better K/BB than CC, and the ERA isn’t far off
Fun fact about Liriano–he currently sports a .350 BABIP, the highest in the majors.
As good as he has been this year, he should be even better.
Worth every penny.
I hope we’ll be saying the same thing about Yu Darvish in 2 years
Color me skeptical about Darvish. Japanese pitchers don’t exactly have a stellar track record once they come over.
I don’t think we’ve seen a prospect like Darvish come out of Japan before. He was labeled a stud as a teenager BEFORE he began ripping up the league. His stuff will translate.
Isn’t that what they said about Dice-K? The guy was a legend in High School because of the 1998 Summer Koshien
I don’t ever remember hearing about Dice-K much before he was being posted. Darvish has been a prospect for a very long time, all based on his tools, not his performance.
There was a TON of hype about Dice-K, for a long time before he came to MLB. In fact, this is totally a subjective matter of opinion, but I remember there being much more hype about Dice-K than there has been, to this point, about Darvish. Whether it’s fair or not, it’s tough for people to believe in Japanese pitchers after Dice-K’s failure (relative to the hype).
Probably because of increased awareness of NPB stuff, partially caused by Dice-K’s posting. Dice-K’s High School career was only a couple of years after Nomo broke in with the Dodgers, people weren’t aware of that stuff yet.
Players that age from Japan are called “the Matsuzaka Generation” for a reason.
It is subjective, like you said, but I seem to remember Dice-K being the same as most of the other Japanese pitchers: when it was their time to come over, there was a lot of hype about what they’ve done.
I remember hearing about Darvish years ago after his first season, which wasn’t anything special. Everybody talked about his stuff and the fact that he wasn’t coming here for at least 5 years, if ever. I guess what I’m getting at is that the hype was there based on his potential, not the fact that he was available. He was that good.
Eh… I don’t mean this in any sort of antagonistic way… But maybe you just weren’t as in the loop re Japanese pitchers when Dice-K was younger as you are now? I’m curious what other people who were paying attention back then think about the hype about the two players, respectively. I remember a ton of hype for a long time about Dice-K. I actually think the hype about Darvish is being suppressed a bit because of how Dice-K didn’t live up to the expectations/hype.
Dice-K came over in ’07. Yu Darvish’s rookie year was ’05. There’s no question the hype was greater for Dice-K, but it was based on him coming over and what he had done in Japan. You don’t hear much about Japanese prospects until around when they are ready to be posted. Yu Darvish, at least in my memory, has been the single biggest exception to that rule.
No, that’s not what I’m saying though. You’re reciting your opinion on this as if it’s fact, but I’m telling you I remember it very differently and I’m curious what other people might think. I remember more hype for Dice-K than there is for Darvish, and I remember that hype for Dice-K starting way before the year he was posted. There were websites that were devoted to watching and talking about that guy, the hype was going on for a long time before he was posted.
Whatever… Like I said, I’m not trying to be antagonistic here. Just wrote this to clarify. I hear what you’re saying, I just remember it very differently than you do.
Guess it’s a matter of perception. There are a few select pitching prospects that I remember being considered the most elite: King Felix, Aroldis Chapman, Michael Ynoa, Strasburg, Mark Prior and Darvish. Guys that had the potential to be top 5 pitchers.
I was just reading about how he threw over 150 pitches twice this season. http://mopupduty.com/ I understand that in Japan he pitches less often, but it almost strikes me as if this will be his last season, and the Ham Fighters will milk him for all he is worth. Which is why they are letting him throw so many pitches.
I haven’t heard of a “can’t miss” Japanese pitcher like Darvish before…well, not including Irabu and Dice-K.
I’m sure Darvish will pitch well enough to win in MLB. The question is at what price.
He will be overrated, and the posting fee will be crippling. That, however, doesn’t mean he won’t be a decent MLB pitcher.
TSJC has a habit of disagreeing with everything I say. Including using Josh Johnson as an example of why I am “wrong” Note: Johnson is 11-5 with a 2.25 ERA (As opposed to being 9-10).
This is just the latest example of his disagreements with me. Which includes hockey, politics and the New Stadium. Things are changing however…..We will be in agreement on College Football when the Nitts play Nebraska in Big 10 play next year (ps. I wonder how Mike sees PSU this year?).
W/L record shouldn’t matter when it comes to the Cy Young Award. It should go to whoever was the best pitcher that season.
“Should” is a strong word.
So it shouldn’t go to the best pitcher?? That doesn’t make any sense.
Shouldn’t matter at all? I don’t think it should be as important as it is, but to say that your record (or even your team’s record) shouldn’t matter at all is kind of short sighted. CC coming up huge for us lately and keeping us in first place SHOULD account for something, considering Felix is simply pitching for… well, nothing really and hasn’t for awhile.
I disagree. It’s not Felix’s fault his team sucks, and not CC’s his team is awesome. I’ll only buy this argument when you can prove that it’s harder pithing for a good team.
It’s not his fault, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be taken into account. Do you really think that pitching for Seattle with nothing to play for is as difficult as constantly being expected to be the stopper in a dog fight in the AL East? CC may be the biggest reason we win the East and, potentially, make the playoffs. Felix may be the biggest reason that Seattle does what?
So if a pitcher is on a losing team, but has the best periphirals of any pitcher, he shouldn’t win the Cy Young award?
Okay. I didn’t know playing for a sub .500 team destroyed your chances at getting an award that has to do with yourself and not your team.
Ever heard of the MVP award? In all honesty the award isn’t any less of a personal award than the Cy Young award. Like I said, it shouldn’t be the main factor in deciding the award winner, but it should definitely factor into it.
Why?
“It’s not Felix’s fault his team sucks, and not CC’s his team is awesome. “
Just playing devil’s advocate here… But the argument, I think, is that no, of course it’s not CC’s fault the rest of the Yankees are good and it’s not Felix’s fault the rest of the Mariners are bad, but, at the same time, CC is pitching in higher-pressure situations that matter more to his team than is Felix. Now, that’s not Felix’s fault in any way, shape or form… But that doesn’t mean we can just disregard that fact. It’s unfortunate for Felix and other pitchers who happen to be on bad teams, but it’s one of those “such is life” situations.
Now, don’t get me wrong… I personally think W/L should have very, very little to do with Cy Young voting – I just don’t think it’s fair to totally disregard it. For example, I’m curious what you’d think about this: Pitcher A and Pitcher have, literally, identical stats (excluding W/L), but Pitcher A compiles those stats while pitching in a pennant race and winning 10 more games than Pitcher B, who plays for a bad team that is out of the race by the All-Star break. Do you give any weight to Pitcher A’s wins-totals, or should the Cy Young voting result in a tie between Pitcher A and Pitcher B?
But who is to say that Pitcher B wouldn’t have done the same or better in the heat of a pennant race? You can only go by what they did, not by what they might have done. Plus, Pitcher B didn’t get to pad his stats against his own presumably lousy offense.
Eh, but pitcher A didn’t get to presumably inflate his stats by facing his own offense.
True–I guess it depends on just how good Team A is and how bad Team B is. Ignore my last sentence then.
“But who is to say that Pitcher B wouldn’t have done the same or better in the heat of a pennant race?”
Nobody. But my point is – such is life. One guy might have a higher degree of difficulty, or be put into situations that are bigger/more important/more high-pressure than the other guy, and that’s probably by no fault of either pitcher in question… But it still happened, and we can’t act like it didn’t.
Sometimes one guy will be put into bigger situations than the other guy, and that’s probably not the fault of either pitcher… But it still happened. It’s unfortunate for the guy who is on the bad team, but such is life.
Also… Just to keep this in the proper perspective… The situation I’m talking about, in which W/L might be something that should matter, has probably happened once or a handful of times in MLB history. I’m basically agreeing with all you guys, I’m just pointing out that this isn’t something we can totally disregard. Context matters in some cases, whether it’s fair that certain guys are in different situations or not.
I think it can only be factored in, at all, if you can prove it’s harder pithing for a good team in a pennant race. Prove that, andI agree. If not, it should have zero to do with it.
Okay but by that logic, the end result of pitching is wins or losses. Obviously we all understand that’s in large part a product of the team, and thus if a pitcher has better stats but a worse record, it’s not his fault, but if you’re only going by “what they did”, and not “what they might have done”, well, Felix Hernandez lost more games than he won, and you can’t say “Well if he played for a better team, he might have played better”.
I’m not knocking Felix, he’s been ridiculous in most ways this year, but the fact is he isn’t even .500, and the voters are not going to give him the Cy Young. We may not be in the “Give it to Bartolo Colon for his 20 wins even though Santana was much better” era anymore, but wins and losses matter to people, and while I disagree strongly with those who make it the be all/end all, when he isn’t even at .500, it’s going to keep him from getting votes. I mean, people weren’t sure if Greinke was going to be able to win it last year, and he was still 16-8.
Good points. I would probably just run through the data and see who faced the tougher competition throughout the entire season.
If both are identical, then my mind would be blown.
Cy Young award isn’t team related, so team stats shouldn’t matter when dealing with this award.
If a pitcher has pitched better than any other pitcher in the league, they deserve to win the award. Period. Playing for a crappy team isn’t their fault.
CC coming up huge for us lately and keeping us in first place SHOULD account for something
No, it shouldn’t. Seattle’s offense is on pace to score 54 fewer runs than the 2003 Tigers, who lost 119 games. That isn’t Felix Hernandez’s fault.
Screw “quality starts”–seven times this year, Felix Hernandez has gone 7+ and given up 2 or fewer earned runs without a W to show for it. In four of those, he actually got the loss.
Logic wins.
PSU should be a decent team this year, but not as strong as in recent years. Probably 3rd or 4th in the Big Ten. They have no QB and their offensive line is a huge hole right now. Other than that, they are solid.
What hurts is that road schedule: At Alabama, at Ohio St, at Iowa. We will compete with Wisconsin for 3rd (Behind Ohio St & Iowa).
I almost think Royster should have gone pro last year. This season is going to be a transition for the next few years, especially on the offensive side of the ball. I’m hoping we are competing with Wisconsin for 3rd, but I wouldn’t be surprised to be a little lower, especially considering that schedule.
PSU misses Wisconsin so that will help. Temple is actually competitive this year, so that is no gimme (However getting Michigan and MSU at State College is huge).
I dont know, Hideo Nomo was absolutely sick his first 3 seasons with the Dodgers. Then he became a league average pitcher in his 30s. Yu is only 24 and has a lot of prime years ahead of him. I think his stuff tranlates better to MLB than the others because of his upper 90s fastball and plus breaking pitches.
Reply fail?
indeed it was .. i clicked that button like 5 times
http://tinyurl.com/36cb75q (safe)
I hate to depress all the Yankee fans here, but CC is going to win the Cy Young Award.
Enjoying the humor of the statement above.
I’d be further depressed if CC wins the World Series MVP
Hernandez as of right now has zero chance of winning the Cy Young. Say what you will about wins/losses, but he’s 9-10. No way he gets it short of winning most of his starts from here on out (which is possible, just saying, if the season ended tomorrow, he wouldn’t get it). Right now I’d say it’d be a race between Price, Sabathia, Buchholz (most voters don’t care about xFiP and stuff like that, his ERA is really, really low and his record is great too), and Lee, although his last few starts have hurt him.
Please note this is the record s-i-n-c-e they starting keeping the silly “quality start”statistic..Note 6 innings and 3 earned runs is hardly a good start.As they said in the tv broardcast 7 innings would be closer to a “quality start”.But back to the original idea –this is not a franchise record . One can only look at the history of some Yankee pitchers and know this is not even close to a record. One case in point would be Jack Chesbro in the franchises first year.51 starts and 48 complete game ERA under 2.
Good point.