DEC Pakistan flood appeal
Post categories: BBC World News
| 12:24 UK time, Wednesday, 4 August 2010
On Thursday, the BBC and the other UK media will broadcast an appeal by the UK Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC).
The DEC is an umbrella organisation of the 13 main UK-based charities - and at times of overseas emergencies, it swings into action.
Earlier this year, following the earthquake in Haiti, the BBC broadcast an appeal by DEC which raised more than £100m - second only to the Asian tsunami in terms of the amount of money raised.
We will broadcast another appeal on Thursday - this time for those affected by the floods in Pakistan.
The BBC is not part of DEC but has an understanding, that at times of international crisis, it will broadcast an emergency appeal provided three main tests are met:
• The disaster must be of such scale and urgency that it requires swift international humanitarian assistance
• The DEC agencies must be in a position to provide effective and swift assistance, at such scale, to justify a national appeal
• There must be reasonable grounds for concluding that a public appeal would be successful
The BBC believes that in the case of the Pakistan floods, the threshold has been met. And while the appeal is quite separate from the on-going editorial coverage of the disaster, clearly, the response is - in part - shaped by what our teams have been reporting on radio, TV and online.
Two years ago, we ran a series of promos on air, celebrating the BBC's global presence around the world.
That value has been demonstrated in recent days. The BBC is the only UK broadcaster to be based in Islamabad - a year ago, we doubled the size of the team in Pakistan, to enable us to focus on the deteriorating security situation there and in Afghanistan.
It's part of the tragedy of this story, that many of the places now so badly affected by the flood waters, are the same as those visited by Orla Guerin, Aleem Maqbool and their colleagues from the BBC Urdu Service in recent months, as they have been reporting Pakistan's insurgency.
But it's also meant that while our colleagues from the other news organisations have been scrambling to report the summer's big story, the BBC has had a head start.
Through the BBC Asian Network, we're also able to reflect and report the response among those in the UK with ties to Pakistan.
Estimates suggest around a million people in the UK can trace their heritage to Pakistan - around 1.5% of the UK population, making it the second largest Pakistani population in the World - the same reason that Pakistani President, Asif Ali Zardari, has chosen Birmingham as the place to launch the political career of his son, Bilawal, this weekend.
It's from Birmingham that the charity, Islamic Relief, is co-ordinating its appeal for Pakistan, as well as being part of the Disasters Emergency Committee.
DFID - the Department for International Development - has already pledged £10m to the relief effort. DEC and other international charities hope to raise much more in the coming days and weeks.
When others go home, the BBC team in Pakistan will remain on the ground, reporting on the relief operation, and following how the money raised is being spent.
It's a vital part of ensuring accountability - part of the BBC's core public service, and why those of you in the UK pay the licence fee.
Jon Williams is the BBC World News editor.
© MMX
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~04~RS~)
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"Through the BBC Asian Network, we're also able to reflect and report the response among those in the UK with ties to Pakistan. "
Is this the same Asian Network that the BBC wants to close??
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Any country that can afford to develop nuclear weapons can afford to look after its people following a natural disaster. I will not be donating.
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I am not sure we should welcome the Pakistani president's attempt to rope the citizens of Birmingham into supporting another act of nepotism by the ruling elite of a corrupt political system. One wonders what the reaction there would have been if Mussolini had turned up in New York to rally support amongst the Italian-American population there?
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Ahh yes - a humanitarian crisis - send for Orla Guerin. Why does this journalist get assigned to every natural/humaninatian disaster story? As your Pakistan correspondent, the current floods clearly fall within her remit. But how then does that explain her presence in Haiti earlier this year? Her one-note but highly emotive reporting blurs into a single, repetitive narrative (central agency incompetence and corruption, the indifference and inadequacy of western response, etc., etc.) and makes these tragic events indistinguishable over time. At a time when compassion fatigue already impacts donations, I'd say that Guerin's reporting actually compounds the problem.
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Pakistan have a huge military might, including Nuclear weapons, they need to spend money on infrastructure and that means helping them selves.
The UK is all to keen to poke our nose in and give hand outs….. I question why we never look at our own poverty and mis-fortune in the same way?
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I often find myself compelled to put my hand in my pocket to donate to disaster relief funds across the globe, Haiti being the last from memory. In this case I am unwilling to do so, having listened for so long to reports of terrorist training camps, anti-western teaching at madrassa, home grown terrorist in the UK being sons and daughters of Pakistani descent and a general feeling of duplicity I get when listening to some officials within Pakistan. With the recent outcry over David Cameron making a statement of fact about some elements within Pakistan supporting terrorism, showing once again a culture that seems willing to shake your one hand and cut off your other when you are not looking (Good on D.C. for standing his ground). I'm sure that many of those poor souls affected by the floods are outside of all of this, but sorry, I won't be donating and I think I'm not alone.
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Why isn't some of UK Aid diverted from Afghanistan to Pakistan? Last night's news reports on C4 News highlighted the plight of Afghan refugees that had yet to receive any help at all.
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Please can we not muddle the issues of providing a humanitarian response to the thousands of people who are without food and shelter with the issue of nuclear weapons, terrorism and the diplomatic war of words between dc and zardawi.
For the record oral guerin is a fantastic reporter. It's great to see also that the BBC have beefed up their Islamabad team, this is reflected in the increased depth and speed of coverage.
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DC was right to say what he did.
The UK throws far too much tax payers money at states like Pakistan in the form of so-called aid.
The real question should be, Aid for what? Since hardly any of it seems to get any further than the governments.
While UK finances are in the state that they are, all forms of overseas aid should be halted. After all. Charity should always begin at home, and at the moment we aren't short of people in need ourselves.
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Our UK troops in Afghanistan are relatively close to the areas of Pakistan affected by the flooding. Surely we in the UK must instruct our troops to drop their guns, and travel to the flooded areas as quickly as possible, bringing with them all the equipment and supplies which will help: not least helicopters and bridge-building equipment and skills.
And if we do this, maybe the Taliban might show, too, that they, too, have humanitarian instincts and do the same. It could be a 'Good Firday Agreement' moment for a settlement to the conflict in Afghanistan.
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HI
JUST WANT TO SAY ONE THING WE ALL ARE HUMANS AND WE HAVE TO HELP EACH OTHER. IT SHOULD NOT MATTER WHERE WE LIVE? OR WHERE WE BELONG TO !
WHAT MATTER IS THAT THERE IS SOME ONE ,SOME WHERE WHO NEED OUR HELP NOW .
WILL YOU PLEASE THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX LEAVE ALL POLITICAL MATTER BEHIND.
AND THINK ABOUT THE PAIN AND EVERY THING HAPPEN TO THOSE WHO ARE IN NEED RIGHT NOW.THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU ? SO PLEASE HELP AS MUCH AS YOU CAN EVEN JUST ONE POUND CAN HELP !
HOPE THIS WILL MAKE YOU THINK AND FEEL BATTER THAT YOU ARE SOME ONE WHO CAN HELP....SOME ONE WHO CAN BRING CHANGE ...SOME ONE WHO CAN BRING SMILE ON THOSE HELPLESS PEOPLES FACES.
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Noone will be donating as we are poor ourselves
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we are not poor atleast we got a house to live,got food 3 times a day what else do a person want ?
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The severity of the problem has been recognised. 4 million people homeless and thousands killed. The DEC appeal deserves to be broadcast on the BBC. Well done! But what was the first item on the Ten o'clock BBC flagship news bulletin tonight 5th August? - Naomi Campbell giving testimony in a trial of an alleged terrorist which has been given little coverage in it's two year existence. The SECOND item was the Pakistan disaster. Please get your priorities in order. Naomi Campbell will get plenty of coverage in the mindless photo magazines catering for that market. The BBC news coverage of the Pakistan disaster deserves FIRST place at Ten o'clock. Your editors need to be reminded of what is important in life. Celebrity should not take preference over lives lost in any News programme. Pete the Gardener
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There's some disgracefully mean comments after this article. I *will* be donating to DEC on this occasion, and for the following reasons:
1. I, like thousands of Brits, know how devastating it is to have my home flooded. Even in a very developed town, with plenty of unaffected neighbours to help, fresh water, and reasonable communications and services nearby, a three-hour flooding event left my house wrecked, my street in chaos and my health affected (I caught a rotavirus from the raw sewage that swept through the house along with a month's worth of rain and a whole lot else). The misery of those affected in Pakistan at the moment is almost impossible to contemplate. Who wouldn't want to help? Especially when a small amount of money can go so far.
2. I, again like many Brits, have worked, lived and gone to school with people of Pakistani descent, and haven't noticed any more extremism than amongst anyone else. I would no more expect them to be terrorist extremists than I would expect any of my Irish acquaintances to blow up my car. Such assumptions are preposterous and this should be pointed out more often.
3. We are in no position to write off a nation's disaster-struck citizens just because we don't like the way its government spends money. The UK is hardly a paragon in that respect, and, of course, spends an absolute fortune on nuclear weapons itself...
4. This will disproportionately affect children, who aren't responsible for their parents' political affiliations in any case.
[actually there are many more reasons, but those who agree with the mean comments will already have stopped reading... and those who don't, won't need to have it explained]
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so you decide gaza is not a crisis so no DEC post , but this is so there is a DEC post. oh but you also pre moderate eveything. no chance of this post making it then,and check your journalists understanding of the 'border' between Israel and Lebanon, international law still applies, not what you reported.(blue line, green line etc )
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If you are reduced to poverty, then trade with Allah (SWT) through giving in charity. Imam Ali (AS)
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I say Food/Drink/Internet/Medicine is the things they need. But you could donate a old Radio too
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Sadly, the meanness around here no longer surprises me.
For those using the 'rich enough to have a nuclear weapon' argument... presumably you said the same thing at the time of Hurricane Katrina? And you'd adopt the same benchmark for catastrophes in India? And Russia? Or are you forced to shift your argument in those cases, and put forward 'other reasons'?
For those going on about terrorist training camps... the desire to help in a catastrophe - regardless of such things - is an entirely noble trait. Add in the fact that the great majority of those victims have, in all likelihood, nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism, and you're left in the morally dubious position of denying innocent people help because you feel their political leaders haven't been doing enough to clamp down on terrorism. Well that's very generous of you.
Just thing once: put down your Daily Mail, unpurse your lips, and pick up the phone.
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4. At 12:52pm on 05 Aug 2010, Digitagit wrote:
Ahh yes - a humanitarian crisis - send for Orla Guerin. Why does this journalist get assigned to every natural/humaninatian disaster story?
======================
Because she is Irish.
So long as she does not mention she is from the BBC she can operate much more safely amongst people who would happily abduct/kill any English reporter they could get their hands on.
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I find the BBC biased on this issue like so much else from this part of the world.
As others have noted here why, is this crisis in Pakistan worthy of a DEC appeal whilst the undoubted suffering of the people of Gaza not deemed worthy enough ?
Also why does the BBC feel the need to comment on the "alleged ties" of "muslim fundamentalist" charity groups to Al Queda whilst refusing to comment on the inclusion of "extremist" parties in the official government of the state of israel.
Surely what is important in a state of emergency such as this is not the politcal or religious ties of the civic minded folk who chose to help but rather their ability to organise and deliver aid where needed.
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23. At 1:13pm on 06 Aug 2010, SotonBlogger wrote:
" As others have noted here why, is this crisis in Pakistan worthy of a DEC appeal whilst the undoubted suffering of the people of Gaza not deemed worthy enough ?"
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This is tens of thousands of people at acute risk of dying. They are the victim of a natural disaster over which they have no control. None of the victims voted in a government which then deliberately provoked the flood.
None of the above applies to the hamas controlled zone.
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I just think the world is getting a bit overcrowded. We should move rich people to all locations of the world to ease the crowd
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Dealing with crisis is just one of the aims of the United Nations Millennium Development Goals. Currently the European Journalism Centre has a blogging competition 'Th!nk3: Developing World' to promote these goals in the lead up to the UN Summit in September.
There are over 1100 stories from 100 bloggers. It has a wealth of ideas and information. I am a participant from Australia.
Please help to spread the word so that we can make a long-term difference: http://development.thinkaboutit.eu/think3/
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25. At 5:46pm on 06 Aug 2010, SotonBlogger
Gaza like WWII gulags? - ho, ho, ho
How many are dead of starvation? How many have been taken in cattle trucks and gassed?
Look at events only this week - the 'palestinians' are importing Mercedes cars down their tunnels. Presumably this is for hamas officials. If things are so bad for them, perhaps they should have a word with their elected government to import fewer mercs and more food?
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i think the disaster is terrible and offcourse we must ensure we provide as much aid into pakistan as we can afford despite the rough economic times we are enduring at home however surely some compassion needs to be applied to our aid and money prior to this being sent and used like reassurance that some of the population wont be burning our elected leaders face and the union jack nor will they try in effect to bite the hands that are trying to feed them so yes give aid and help that as christians is what we should do but also self preservation means just that are we helping some back to health so they can then enter into a campaighn of hate for britain surely this question needs to be asked or is it me that doesnt get it (yes help) but seek assurances that they can return some sort of forgivness and help britain destroy terrorisim in its tracks. i certainly am a good christian person but the buck needs to stop somewhere.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Jon,
I wonder if the UK, or any other small Christian Country had a natural disaster, how many Muslim Countrys would rush to our aid with cash?
Don't hold your breath.
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@toycollector, #33
Three questions:
1) You describe the UK as a "small Christian Country". Can you tell me, in what sense are you using that word "small"? (And please share with us how precisely that "smallness" is relevant to your point)
2) How does the total wealth and the average standard of living in Britain compare with the total wealth and the average standard of living in "many Muslim countries"?
3) Will you personally be donating?
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I certainly hope that monies donated go to the right people.
The saddest bit of news I heard was the old man who refused to be rescued because he would have to leave his water buffalo behind, and he loved her. Tragic and honourable.
And seeing people on roofs with no land in sight - we have to act. How can you walk away?
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"25. At 5:46pm on 06 Aug 2010, SotonBlogger wrote:
Are you truely so naive ? Do you truely believe in the 21st century we cannot engineer water control features to prevent such catastrophic loss of life."
I'm afraid the planet is capable of throwing more at us than we can ever deal with. Regardless of money. USA suffers severe flooding and loss of life, earthquakes, tornadoes. They're relatively rich. Japan's loss of life due to tsunamis is high. They're relatively wealthy. Chile, Haiti, Hawaii, Bangladesh, many areas of Africa, central Turkey, the list of places which are prone to devastation by natural forces is depressingly long.
As Egypt has discovered, the Aswan Dam prevents the Nile from flooding, and once fertile areas are now sterile.
Life is sadly not that simple.
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Should money aid be offered or expertise on water systems, construction equipment, supplies, microloans and help in building factories? When does the Pakistani government start helping its own population rather than buying military equipment and lining the pockets of its corrupt politicians? It's time for an aid re-think.
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Disaster response is a world concern. Devastating earthquakes, floods, and wind storms occur in most countries. Many nations do not have the technology for recovery. The United Nations might consider an emergency management function.
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There were no existance of contry NAMED pakistan before 80 years. So please change the title of article.
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On other News Channels - CNN, Euronews, CCTV(China), NDTV (india), Russia Today, France 24, Al Jazeera and Press TV (Iran) - help has been getting through to Pakistan. We see marquees, tents, people receiving food and medical help, areas where water has receded. I know that the state of affairs in Pakistan is appalling and the needs of the people are great but I sometimes get the impression that the BBC is only showing, and repeating, film of total devastation and nothingness because they have become an arm of the aid industry. Do you perhaps think we'll give more money if you tailor the news to show only helplessness and despair?
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"When does the Pakistani government start helping its own population ...."
Its always interesting to watch the responses to disasters by the populations in different countries. The Chinese have responded to their parallel floods with admirable efficiency and organisation. They haven't sat around saying "Woe is me. Give us some money". They've just got on with it.
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kindly donot donate any penny to the govt of pakistan as that aid doenst reach to the deserving ppl of pakistan ....... instead you can give it to UNO or any other international helping organisation .........
shame shame ..... ppl dont have food to eat in pakistan due to flood ..... n president zardari is strolling with his family in uk and france viewing his palaces ....
Although its not all appreciated to insult any human being and leaders but in these circumstance ...... its welldone babe jeeeeeeee who threw the shoe on zardari ...... so wat if they have closed the tv channels in pakistan due to this shoe incident ..... we are goin to spread the message against this brutality around the world .......
Regards
Bina Islam ul Haq
London - UK
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MaggieL wrote: "When does the Pakistani government start helping its own population ...."
Its always interesting to watch the responses to disasters by the populations in different countries. The Chinese have responded to their parallel floods with admirable efficiency and organisation. They haven't sat around saying "Woe is me. Give us some money". They've just got on with it.
Spot on.
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Wow, some people on here think they have problems and that they are poor. How on earth can you afford to use a computer then. Most of us in the UK do not know what real abject poverty and hardship is. I'm really shocked by some of the statements. I wonder, did those who are saying that they aren't going to donate make any donations to the Astan Tsunami appeal. There was a country, Thailand (I know others were affected but I think this is why most donated), although known as a 'developing country', with a wealthy government. We still donated though. It's not the government, hopefully, that I will be donating to. It's the people of the provinces affected. I don't want them to have to suffer any more than they already have and if I can do something then I will. I would donate to a disaster fund here also, if there were a disaster (hopefully there won't be), even though our country owns several nuclear weapons.
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Pakistan became a begger state(country). It always exaggragate the facts related to its country. As the very first news of flood starts coming, it has started begging the whole world instead starting rescue operaton on its own.
World must be careful to donate this time because Pakistanis transfer all the funds to fund its army, helping Taliban, funding terrorists organisation of kashmir(HURRIYAT). Pakistan is master of duplicity.
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I would rather donate to other organization, won't be repeating myself pple have listed the reasons above! But why won't BBC equally report about other countries being flooded not just think that Pakistan is the only news-worthy subject abroad. One example: Poland - the country is still fighting with severe flooding since May! and there is nothing mentioned about it one the news...
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JET1977 (#45)
"Most of us in the UK do not know what real abject poverty and hardship is."
Spot on.
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Many countries suffer from hurricane activity. Recovery is a slow and a expensive process. The United Nations should consider strategies to provide for victims of massive natural disaster situations.
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I commend our courageous Prime Minister for speaking the truth about Pakistan, though I would like to hear what our Government has to say about President Zardari’s decision to shut down ARY and GEO News after it had reported the shoe throwing incident). Is it right that our Government should openly support a regime that despises free press, embraces violence and lacks proper democratic credentials?
Should we support a leader who is beating up reporters, newspaper sellers and burning TV channel offices?
Like many other people, I am utterly disgusted at the morally outrageous way this Pakistani dictatorship is behaving, including lavish life style of the family members of the Pakistani Prime Minister - I understand they are renting a large house in Knightsbridge and the son drives a Lamborghini!, while the President during his current visit to London has booked over 25 rooms in a hotel in Knightsbridge at a time when many millions are starving and without shelter. Please explain why our Government is supporting this despicable regime?
Any reasonable fair minded person would find this exorbitant lifestyle (funded at the behest of the West and the World Bank) morally unacceptable and an affront to common humanity, especially when people in Pakistan are facing unprecedented natural disasters - the current floods have left over 2 million homeless and claimed over 1,500 dead, with many protesting about their government’s lack of response.
As taxpayers, we have every right to ensure that our funds are not misused by corrupt Pakistani politicians who I believe are largely responsible for the current problems in that country. Why is our that country helping this corrupt regime? Why do we not investigate how our funds are actually used by Pakistan and the extent to which poverty and unemployment plays a role in promoting extremism? Is Pakistan actually encouraging extremism to serve its long term interests? Is it right that Western business interests in Pakistan (McDonald and Pizza Hunt) should pay protection money to extremists?
It is high time we exposed some uncomfortable facts about Pakistan and how it is the leadership not the ordinary and hardworking people of Pakistan that are fomenting hatred against the West and not serving and protecting their own people against extremist (I strongly suspect it is the failure of the Pakistan government in terms of social care, education and medical health that prompted many to turn to extremists).
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Dotconnect - What's your proposal then, throw money at the problem until it goes away? Odds are only a fraction of it will reach the people it is supposed to. If you're lucky.
Pakistan needs to set its own house in order as 50) above suggests. Social care, education, medical health - not to mention endemic corruption. A little flood contingency planning wouldn't go amiss either.
One video stream from a mobile phone has arguably done more damage to the Taliban than the Pakistani Government has managed in the last ten years.
You don't make these problems go away by trying to bail out a corrupt government that is quite happy with the status quo. Only Pakistanis can change Pakistan for the better.
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Yes extremist chanting and flag burning...hmm kind of reminds me of BNP and EDL who act in a similar racist capacity. Maybe I should stop donating to the Marie Curie foundation or Great Ormond street and stop volunteering at my local care home every weekend...I mean they help all these children of white British people who want me out of their country even though I probably pay more tax than the vast majority of them (and no benefits for me!)...sure the overwhelming majority of those British people are opposed to such measures but hey these EDL people are white and British therefore logically they must all be trying to extradite me or harass me by calling me a Paki.
Terrorists attacking and killing people in Britain...may be I should look things up and see how many Pakistani soldiers and civilians have fallen victim to such acts or terrorism by these very people. I suppose I can look at civilian causalities caused by drone attacks by allied forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan and how many people were forced to flee the impending war and hardships caused by a disproportionate response by Allied forces. Heard about the innocent mother who was making her four-year-old breakfast and got hit by a missile fired from a Predator drone? It was civilian death they said but didn't apologise...when her son grows up we'll tell him that his mother was killed by the Allies but it was her own fault...obviously...he will harbour no thoughts of revenge I think nor will the woman's husband.
Honour killings. Could be a cultural thing I suppose...I mean people die in Britain due to alcohol-induced violence all the time. Maybe one should compare no. of honour killings and no. of people killed by alcohol-induced violence between the two countries...but I won't because I don't like the sound of that and Britain might not come out on top.
Nuclear weapons...Britain is in an economic depression and doesn't have much money, I wonder why we're upgrading Trident and haven't we also ordered a few new air craft carriers and other aircraft...maybe it's for another cold war. In case we get attacked by a new enemy who are so powerful that our current nuclear arsenal will probably not deter them...I mean we can develop weapons that are even deadlier and meaner. What about those trade deals with Saudi Arabia and India concerning weapons? Well we're getting money there so what if so many people in those nations live below the poverty line...statistics say that whenever Pakistan has had a military government we've given them more aid and we've usually not given aid to any government that didn't agree with us like Nawaz Sharif or much further back during Bhuttos time. We can only curse that these corrupt government spend money on themselves.
Oh we made a statement they didn't like...it was the truth honest. Sure India is suppressing people in Kashmir and coming down brutally on other insurgent movements and other countries we deal with support terrorism too but it's not in our interest to criticise them. Plus for bonus points, we win India's favour by criticising Pakistan...sure it might be a little tiny bit insensitive.
Maybe we should help them...I mean 70% of all supplies to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan pass through Pakistan and damage to Pakistan's economy was estimated at tens of billions of dollars by an independent report due to the Afghan war...not to mention loss of life. But we won't because they make a nice scapegoat to blame things on when the going is tough in Afghanistan.
Sorry if you find my self-righteous attitude to be annoying. I am a Muslim really and obviously because you don't like Islam and don't agree with it (particularly face veils...I mean women might choose to wear it but you they are obviously demented and wrong and it is my duty to take away that choice because I find it offensive), it makes everything I say wrong.
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What a lot of prejudice is showing in these recent blogs. For me, Kevin Rennie has the best approach. Good luck to him and his work, I say.
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It stuns me that BBC news continues to ignore reporting the humanitarian support (let alone the sacrifice in human terms) of "other" nationals in Afghanistan, working alongside the Brits. Today, for example, I can read on other websites, of Dutch, Danish and even Australian forces' contributions, but not anywhere that I see, on the BBC site. Why, or why not? OK perhaps in the UK audiences are most interested in UK connections, but when Taleban propaganda statements are carried, why no acknowledgement of "allied" contributions?
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Darkfiresong: So anyone not prepared to donate to Pakistan is automatically racist, eh? How convenient.
If you truly believe that all white British people want you to leave based on your ethnicity, you need to seek help.
And yes. I do find your self-righteous attitude to be annoying. Time you ditched that victim mentality you wear so well.
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Squaids1:
I'm of the opinion that it is Pakistanis themselves who infuriating insist on voting these idiots into power and then complain...they are to blame. We (pakistanis and muslims) have dug this hole for ourselves.
I just have a problem with people giving silly excuses for not donating. If you're not donating, all good and well but please do not exhibit the attitude "Taliban from here so no aid" or "honour killings so no aid".
Perhaps you should reread my earlier comment. I was being sarcastic...it is obviously absurd to assume that because EDL have racist tendencies that all British people are racists as people here are implying that because there is a Taliban presence in Pakistan, people here are terrorists and generally hate the Western world.
If I am a victim, I am for a large part a victim of my own doings.
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Squaids1:
In your first sentence, you're putting words into my mouth and in your last, you are exhibiting ignorance...a weak statement that to me reflects the lack of solid arguments on your part. By implying that I am possessed by a victim mentality, you are also demonstrating the victim mentality that seems prevalent among many people in Britain...Britain has supported dictators in the past and if countries said dictators have ruled over have anti-British sentiments among their population, there is no point in being indignant about it.
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Darkfiresong: Fair enough. I think you went off on something of a diatribe intially; the appearence of excusing honour killings is never going to help your case. Appreciate you got carried away.
My reason for not donating is that Pakistanis need to make a better Pakistan for themselves. Making a country reliant on outside aid in times of crisis gives that country's leadership absolutely no incentive to improve things moving forward.
If Pakistan is to avoid further radicalisation it needs to act now. Not through use of munitions, but use of education and social programs. As things stand, the Madrassas are used as centers of indocrination. The fact that extremists are attempting to use the same tactic here I find infuriating.
I also would not throw money at India either, though for different reasons. Any country that can afford a space program.....
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Squaids1
I'm sorry...maybe I did get carried away. I agree with the points you've made. I am in no way in favour of honour killings and would argue that such evils would go away through social education and more focus on education spending instead of defence spending within the country.
Madrassas need to be regulated within Pakistan but this can't happen if the people in power refuse to do anything to such institutions for fear of losing votes and much needed support that mullahs bring in terms of followers of their brand of religion. I can understand why parents send their children to madrassas...free meals and lodgings and the instant credibility among local folk having a "mullah-in-training" son brings never mind the fact that people leave these places with a hundred and one prejudices...
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Darkfiresong wrote: "By implying that I am possessed by a victim mentality, you are also demonstrating the victim mentality that seems prevalent among many people in Britain."
Rrrriight... "I am a Muslim really and obviously because you don't like Islam and don't agree with it (particularly face veils...I mean women might choose to wear it but you they are obviously demented and wrong and it is my duty to take away that choice because I find it offensive), it makes everything I say wrong."
A written apology is fine.
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Why is the article all about how wonderful the BBC is, rather than how deserving the cause they have chosen to publicise is?
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#51
// "Pakistan needs to set its own house in order as 50) above suggests. "
------
Indeed it does. In the meantime, 1,600 people are dead and it's being reported that "at least" 14 MILLION people are affected. It's my opinion that there are better times to be concerning yourself about "bailing out a corrupt government" and "teaching Pakistan to stand on its own two feet".
Withholding aid is one thing, and I fully understand the sentiment behind it.
Withholding emergency aid, however, is quite another.
You may think now is precisely the time for "tough love". I do not.
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While the Pakistan government considers investment in nuclear weapons a priority over the welfare of it's people I believe that donating anything to that country totally inappropiate
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#62: "Withholding aid is one thing, and I fully understand the sentiment behind it. Withholding emergency aid, however, is quite another"
Exactly, so why is the Pakistan government itself being so slow - or in some cases not getting help through at all - when it could have set up a disasters and emergency fund itself, instead of wasting its money on corrupt officials, or warmongering over Kashmir and developing offensive weapons? Fair enough, all UN countries should help, but the Pakistan government should not shirk its own responsibilities to its people.
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"The BBC is not part of DEC but has an understanding, that at times of international crisis, it will broadcast an emergency appeal provided three main tests are met"
What about the other test...
- the appeal must NOT raise money for humanitarian aid to Gaza
Actually, I suspect this article is really the BBC setting out its position before people like myself criticise you for airing a DEC appeal this year, but point blank refusing last year. At least have the courage of your convictions and make your motives clear...
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Earlier in the comment thread, Joe remarked in comment #2 that he will not be donating to the flood stricken people of Pakistan because he believes that any nation that can afford to develop nuclear weapons can afford to look after its people following a natural disaster. While I can see an inkling of logic in that train of thought, however it is severely short-sighted.
This kind of thinking assumes that the governing bodies of countries and the millions of citizens which populate those nations are one unit and body, when the reality is that for many populations, the people and its leaders are at odds, corruption in authority is strife and the leaders are more interested in power than the well-being of their citizens. For many of those people, they have gone from a state of poverty to worse. The government of Pakistan is not in need of your donations to survive, but the people of Pakistan are certainly facing huge difficulties and need every help they can get. Many people and nations don't like the leaders of N. Korea, but that doesn't blind us to the plight and poverty of its people. Similarly, we should not become hard hearted to a humanitarian cause because of our political biases and God forbid you find yourself in a similar disaster and see no help forth coming from your own governments, lest you have to eat the sourness of your own words.
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I stand to be corrected, but my understanding of the work of the DEC is that they use the funds raised through their appeals to buy essential relief equipment (plant & machinery, water purification tackle, temporary shelters, blankets etc etc) and then ship this out to the affected areas. They do not channel large amounts of cash to potentially corrupt govenment officials.
If this is the reason anyone is deciding not to donate I would, respectfully, suggest a re-think of your reasoning.
As a first time visitor to this blog I have to say I find the amount of biggotry as depressing as the pictures comming out of the SWAT valley.
The political elite of Pakistan have run the country as a personal fiefdom since it was created in the 40's but that should not influence our response to the millions of ordinary Pakistanis affected by this monumental disaster.
It doesn't cost much to show a crumb of basic humanitarianism
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This is related to a story broadcast 8/11 --
It began
"Britain's hoteliers, pub landlords and cabbies have been given tips on how to avoid cultural no-nos with the Chinese and faux pas with the French.
Tourism agency VisitBritain has come up with online advice to help give foreign visitors a warmer welcome ahead of the 2012 London Olympics.
It advises against hugging an Indian straight off, implying Poles drink a lot or calling Canadians "American".
It also warns against mentioning the 1845-6 war to a Mexican."
I don't want to embarrass VisitBritain or the BBC unnecessarily, but the Mexican American war was declared May 13, 1846, and concluded by treaty on Feb. 2, 1848. Any Mexican (or American) who knows his or her history won't be offended by mentioning a 1845-6 war, just mystified.
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Pakistan is one of the world's major Islamic terror centres. Here's a small fraction of Pakistan's contribution to terror:
*The abduction and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl, simply because he was Jewish.
*The bloodthirsty terror attacks against innocents in India and then the ducking and diving when held to account.
*The training of terrorists in madrassas and exporting them to the West.
*The murder of Benazir Bhutto because she represented a threat to the medieval tenets of radical Islam.
*The exporting of nuclear technology to Iran - another major centre of Islamic terror.
Pakistan plays a double game with the West, pretending to be clamping down on terrorists such as the Taliban while in reality in sympathy with them.
Now the bleeding-heart "liberals" on this thread might claim that the "ordinary" people of Pakistan have nothing to do with the actions of their government. I disagree. People get the government they vote in and a country riddled with Islamic fundamentalists, though they are obviously not all terrorists, will get a government that reflects their fundamentalism.
Now already stories are coming in of the aid not getting through to the people who need it most and of food prices soaring. No doubt corrupt officials are holding onto it and selling it to the highest bidders, as inevitably happens in these cases.
Feel free to line their pockets. I wont be doing so.
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4. Digitagit,
Yes, the BBC's Orla Guerin certainly does get around. She was based in Johannesburg when the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war broke out. Suddenly there she was in Lebanon, reporting (inaccurately) that the Israelis had totally destroyed a Lebanese village. Now she's in Pakistan? BBC journalists really do get around. I sometimes wonder if they are a law unto themselves and they are the ones who tell their editors and managers whence they are going to report and that they are going to follow stories that take their far left-wing fancy, wherever they are.
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When I saw the title of this thread I knew it was only a matter of time before someone would link it to the BBC's refusal to broadcast the DEC appeal for Gaza after the attack by Israel. It was the correct decision, because the BBC did not want to be seen as automatically supporting any cause that the "liberal" left insists it supports and also because there was and is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, despite the best efforts of the Israel-haters to manufacture one and the support they get in this endeavour from so many in the media.
So comments no.17 from xpl0de and no. 23 from SotonBlogger can be dismissed as the typical knee-jerk and unthinking responses that come whenever there is an opportunity for Israel-bashing.
Yes, there is obviously a very real humanitarian crisis in Pakistan and on a massive scale. So what are Pakistan's fellow Muslims doing about it? How much aid is pouring in from the likes of Saudi Arabia, which wallows in wealth others can only dream of? Have any Saudi engineers rushed to Pakistan to assess the need for bridges and the possibility of their construction? I guess the Saudis are too busy infecting Western educational institutions with their brand of radical Islam to worry about their fellow Muslims in the East.
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@TrueToo
// "Yes, there is obviously a very real humanitarian crisis in Pakistan and
// on a massive scale. So what are Pakistan's fellow Muslims doing about it?"
Interesting that you even think to ask a question like that; choosing to position a GEOGRAPHICAL and NATIONAL catastrophe along a Muslim/non-Muslim axis. Very interesting.
// "How much aid is pouring in from the likes of Saudi Arabia, which wallows
// in wealth others can only dream of?"
$100 million. And?
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I dont mean to be harsh but in my opinion the world is way overpopulated as things stand causing untold damage and destruction to the natural environment and future generations.
This kind of natural diaster is part of nature's attempt to rebalance the situation in my opinion and hence I will not be donating.
Incidently this over population is I believe part of the root cause of the poverty in this area with far too many people living in a resource poor region and forced to live in substandard accomodation and sub standard flood defences.
Actually I have heard tell from people involved in the country that the poor flood defences are also due to corruption of relevant officials, again a good reason not to donate in my opinion
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@69 TrueToo
Been out for the day so a little late in responding.
If your reference to bleeding heart "liberals" is directed at my posting at 67 I object.
I couldn't give a *oss about politics. I became politically ambivalent at an early age - probably due to reading the Daily Herald at Grandma's every day from the age of five.
Your subsequent postings simply re-inforce my earlier remark about biggotry on this blog.
What the heck has the issue to do with religion.
Can Christians only help Christians, Muslims only help Muslims, Buddists only help Buddists et al.
Your list of criticisms of current Pakistani society is probably accurate to a large degree, as far as the specifics are concerned, but are we in the west blameless of all the worls ills?
I was mearly calling for a human to human response to the situation.
I hope you never find yourself needing a helping hand - I fear it may not be forthcomming.
It certainly won't be from any Muslim reading your contribution.
What a sad world you must inhabit.
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I have donated a modest sum to the appeal, but I would like to hear what the oil-rich Muslim states are doing about their brothers asnd sisters in the faith.
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I sincerely Feel sorry for the innocent people of Pakistan.But AS we all know about two weeks ago U.K P.M very manly announced "Pakistan is been exporting terrorism to rest of the world" and rest we alll know...
Austalia, U.K , USA , and U.N is trying to help pakistan out in this situation, so my question is why any of the middle east country or any arab islamic country is coming forward to help them.
They probably busy sponcering taliban from back door.
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72, dotconnect,
You are claiming that I am claiming that only Muslims should help their fellow-Muslims. I'm not. I'm just interested in the appalling lack of concern they show when their Muslim brothers are in trouble.
Saudi Arabia has given 100 million? If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. There's a major difference between pledging and actually donating money. (Any other Muslim countries on the list?) But I guess it's possible that Saudi Arabia will find a way to funnel money through to the Taliban, fellow-believers in radical Islam.
The West is always expected to rush to the aid of any country in trouble. Let's see the oil-rich Arab and Muslim world do the same for once when the West is in trouble.
74. EBAHGUM,
No, I was not responding to your no. 67. In fact I found it one of the more reasonable comments from those supporting aid. Pity you had to change the tone in your no. 74, which quickly deteriorated into insult and petty judgement.
There is one way and only one way aid to Pakistan will get to the people most affected by the disaster: put the coordination and distribution of aid under the control of a multinational force. This force would have to be armed to prevent hijacking and selling of aid by the Pakistani army or anyone else. But of course Pakistan would never allow that, so it will just be business as usual, with the unscrupulous making a fortune out of the suffering of their fellow Pakistanis.
Anyone recall the big fuss recently about the BBC revelations that most of the Bob Geldof-inspired aid to Ethiopia way back then went to buy arms for rebels? Typical of the naive "liberal" left with their rose-tinted glasses, Geldof was furious, insisting that every cent reached its intended target. The reality, of course, is that in dictatorial third world countries the strong man takes all and to hell with the common man. From the stories already filtering through from Pakistan, it appears to be, as I said, business as usual.
There is one positive I can think of resulting from this massive disaster: Pakistani terrorist activity will be seriously disrupted.
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@TrueToo, 78
"You are claiming that I am claiming that only Muslims should help their fellow-Muslims."
No I am not.
I do however get tired of this tribal mindset that even thinks to respond to a catastrophe on this scale with a kneejerk "Yes but why should WE? What about THEM?" attitude, along with that old chestnut about how we apparently rush to everyone's aid, and what about the Egyptians and the Ruskies, blah blah blah.... As if Britain is some poor third-world country where living standards are only average. We might be in a right royal mess with our economy right now, but the idea that we're not considerably wealthier than most Muslim nations is laughable.
By the way I will concede one point: you are right, my $100 million figure was incorrect and it seems it didn't just refer to the flood. I apologise for that.
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I would not donate as look at the devistation some of their people cause when they bomb and terrorise us. Now they want help?
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If it wasn't for so called "British" Pakistanis I wouldn't have had to queue for half an hour at the airport last week before having to remove my belt and shoes to go through a scanner. I also wouldn't have had to fork out ten quid for drinks that a few years ago I could have brought from home.
Maybe then I'd feel like giving that tenner to disaster relief for their families.
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And so it continues...
zoe, 80
"I would not donate as look at the devistation some of their people cause when they bomb and terrorise us. Now they want help?"
Who's "they", for goodness sake?
SeeDubya, 81
"If it wasn't for so called "British" Pakistanis..."
Ahh yes, they're all the same aren't they?
Unbelievable.
It's precisely this mindset that's at the root of the world's problems, be it from Islamic extremists or the anti-Muslim voices in this country. Two sides of the same coin in my opinion.
As is treating an entire nation as a singularly moral entity, and applying collective punishment using the incredibly flimsy argument of "they voted for their government" - where else have I heard that reasoning before? Oh that's right - Islamic extremists, seeking to justify punishment against an entire country for their government's warmongering. Again, funny how the two mindsets so often overlap isn't it? Meanwhile, all the millions of Pakistani citizens who didn't vote for the government (not to mention the millions underage) are to be dismissed as unpeople. Selective blindness or casual indifference, either way, I'm sure it makes for a better night's sleep for you.
Honestly there is no hope for the human race until we can all evolve past this "them and us" mindset that some of you epitomise (and that our right wing press does its utmost to provoke).
That some of you can take such an obvious humanitarian catastrophe, and offer up what spite you have in your way of contribution, is nothing short of odious.
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Not one penny from me to the citizens of a nation whose prime raison-d'etre is to sow hatred & discord throughout the world. After railing against other religions & even killing their own co-religionists, as well as spreading terror world-wide, Pakistanis are surprised the world is not contributing to relief efforts to the same extent as Haiti etc. To them I say "You reap what you sow". Get the required funds from your nuclear weapons & ISI budgets.
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RE: the "them and us" mindset
I think you just have to accept that there are some people who see the world in these simplistic tribal terms and that they also feel that others also perceive the world in these "them and us" terms. It's just too complicated/expensive/irrelevant to cultivate a more sophisticated model of large swathes of humanity and very convenient/comforting to have this view even if there's not much accuracy behind it.
Is the origin of this outlook due to self-interest or a lack of knowledge/interest/difficulty/relevance in understanding other people from far away lands?
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@78 TrueToo
An unreserved apology for any offence. As I get older I get tetchier.
I'll try to improve.
Regards
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Pakistan spends over 70% of its budget on defence, and most of these weapons are directed against India. Its Nuclear weaponry is bigger than India's in terms of numbers even though it is a failed state. The fundamental problem with Pakistan is that the Army has no responsibility of running the state with a sham civilian government in place but has all the powers. Rogue Elements of the Pakistan Army are closely tied with the Taliban and it is quite evident that their policy on terrorism is to hunt with the hounds and also run with the hares which is why Prime Minister David Cameron asked Pakistan to stop looking at both. Therefore it is absolutely imperative that any aid to this country must be tied to 1) getting rid of its nuclear weapons and 2) demilitarisation on the eastern front with India. S Rajendran
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"..82. At 1:04pm on 16 Aug 2010, dotconnect wrote:
Selective blindness or casual indifference, either way, I'm sure it makes for a better night's sleep for you.."
Frankly, yes it does. Thanks to the Muslims promotion of terrorism, and more specifically their targeting of me and mine, I no longer care in the slightest what happens to the inhabitants of any Islamic nation.
Does not the word Islam mean "submission to the will of Allah". If Allah in his infinite wisdom chooses to flood Pakistan, why should an infidel like me try to interfere?
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Well at least the facade is dropping around here.
"...the Muslims promotion of terrorism..."
"...their targeting of me..."
"...the inhabitants of any Islamic nation..."
etc
Going back to what _marko wrote, I sometimes wonder if a certain number of people on the planet are incapable - genuinely intellectually incapable - of getting beyond this simplistic way of seeing things. Fuelled by fear and other base emotions, hampered by their own ignorance, they try to make sense of the world in the best way they can using the limited tools at their disposal, and the result is the kind of tribal lumping-together of 1.5 billion people that we see above.
In parts of the world with lower educational opportunities and poorer standards of living, it's more understandable. But in countries like Britain and the US, such prejudice is a little embarrassing. What always strikes me as odd is that such people seem indifferent (or perhaps oblivious) to the crucial fact that their approach actually exacerbates the very problem they're seeking to expose or solve. Their prejudice and hate encourages extremism.
It is those who reject such primitive thinking, the decent moderates both Muslim and non-Muslim alike - people who show compassion in spite of misfortune, people who have not been brainwashed into thinking that liberalism and intellect are things of which to be ashamed - people who recognize shades of grey - these people are the real opponents of extremism, and our best hope for the future.
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Osama Bin Laden's alive in Pakistan. Armed drones, artillery shells, and missile attacks failed. Many people died in the floods. The American interest is military and propaganda. Their rationale is spending tax money allocated to the DOD. Funds disappear to the rampant war profiteering.
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"89. At 12:37pm on 17 Aug 2010, dotconnect wrote:
Well at least the facade is dropping around here.."
What facade would that be?
I think I made it perfectly clear what my views are. I didn't feel the need to insult your superior intelligence by hiding behind pseudo-intellectual hyperbole; I probably couldn't, given the limited tools at my disposal.
I'll make things even more simplistic. I think our government should send Pakistan a message "You want aid, you start by giving us Bin Laden's head on a plate."
What a fear and hate fuelled barbarian I am.
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85. EBAHGUM,
Thanks for that. I appreciate it.
dotconnect,
You should try to sneer a little less at people. It makes them disinclined to read your comments.
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@92 See Dubya
I suspect that, in reality, you are neither a fear nor hate filled barbarian.
A barbarian would be defined a someone without taste or refinement.
I'm sure that someone who uses language such as hyperbole and facade would not fall within this definition.
You seem as frustrated,as the rest of normal humanity on this blog, by the failure to find the solution to these seemingly intractible problems.
I believe dotconnect has made points well worth considering. I, for one, will ponder. Please do not dismiss his/her comment in undue haste.
Regards
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@SeeDubya - the facade that it's about Pakistan rather than Muslims generally.
@TrueToo - not so much sneering as openly despairing.
@EBAHGUM - thank you, that's appreciated.
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It is very true that the money donated will go straight into the bank account of Zardari but I think it is very shocking to see that people think the people of Pakistan are also bad or are supporters of terrorism. We ourselves are victims of terrorism. We are absolutely helpless because our government is not doing enough for the victims. All they are doing is beg for money that isn't even going to reach the victims. Whoever is kind enough to donate even a penney should donate it to the UN because they are the only ones who will help the millions of people who are left with almost nothing. Some don't even have clothes to wear. All the government is doing is taking tours of the disaster from the helicopters pretending that they care. I hope the world dosen't isolate us by thinking that Pakistanis are terrorists and they should not be helped. We are certainly not weapon loving people. We ourselves want peace for our people and for the world.
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This catastrophe of unprecendented proportions could not have come to Pakistan at any worst time for one single reason; the image of the country in the World eyes.
This could be beacuse of comments made by the UK PM recently quote ¨ Pakistan Supports Terrorism¨ in which case the message got very well around the World but most of all, I believe that the indeference of the World in the face of this Calamity, it is because they know that there is a crafty crook in charge of the country.
My personal experience as an European expatriate working there during the late Benazir rule was quite frightening as I had to work under army scort 24/7 because Mr. Zardari gangs were shooting foreigners as he wanted to have many larger pices of the ¨pies¨ inlcuding pand grabbing, etc.etc, not only in Karachi but other parts of Pakistan..caporal British citizens where killed then.
In this time of hardship where the Pakistani people which has been always used and abused by its leaders under the guidance of foreign powers, for one I am making my donations through the only channels which I know that the people in the ground are going to get my had earned Euros and that is through the Islamic Associations in Pakistan that have already more than 350,000 aid workers in the ground,other than that my money could end in the worng pockets.
Xa
Madrid
SPAIN
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The heart-rending pictures make you want to give.
BUT, Wikipedia states the population of Pakistan at:
1950: 39 million
2000: 146 million
2010: 179 million
Number of immigrants in the population, born abroad, is only 6 million.
So, a 16% rise in the last 10 years, and numbers not being swelled by
helping out poorer surrounding countries with immigration: no excuses.
Clearly, the Pakistani regime is a failed government: it can't control
population, building on flood plains, religiously extreme masala schools,
or terrorism. Over the next few years it won't even feed its people.
I approve of aid by foreign governments, but this MUST be linked with
strings to introduce birth control, de-religification, and better policing.
I will NOT be giving to charities, who cannot ensure these crucial improvements.
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The countries that create construction labor camps to build their own country's stuctures, include a high percetage of Pakistani laborers. Where is their aid and assistance? The benefit of their talented engineers to correct some of the physical deficiencies is needed and long overdue. Those remarkable countries need to step up with a long term program....as well as some immediate relief (food, water, medicine) for their source of labor. To not do so would give the appearance of exploitation of Pakistani workers for their own benefit.
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At least 1,500 people died in the disaster, so far. The United Nations should send humanitarian assistance to the area. The victims of this flood need food, water, medicine, cots, tents, and clothing. Obama should end the bizarre armed drone flights and other military attacks on the country.
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Tell you what; it will take a whole wide world revolution for schmucks to realize that our kin doesn't differentiate in strife.
Wish someone would cut all the crap.
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I religiously read the BBC news because I thought of it an unbiased news organisation compared to news in the USA. I recently replied to a "have your say" on Obama. I replied, suggesting that Obama be held for treason for his behavior in the US, and my reply was not posted as it was deemed by your staff to be "offensive". Is your organization now part of the socialist plot of the Obama regime? Are you being paid off by someone? Is there danger in my writing about his need to be imprisoned for treason? Are the English really this sensitive?
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If Barack Obama spent $59 billion in humanitarian assistance on Pakistan instead of this insane war, then the people would stand a chance at survival.
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I have read with gr8 interest most of the comments posted here with regard 2 donations/contributions 4 helping the devastated humanity in Pakistan. Although, in principle,i do agree with what most of ur contributors have said, regarding what's wrong with Pakistan, this definitely is NOT the time/occasion 2 be nitpicking on those issues. This issue is very SIMPLE...ailing and devastating humanity,hit by one of the severest floods in recent memory, needs HELP.Emergency Relief Aid/Help should never having any strings attached 2 it.However,aid/loans on a regular basis MUST be overseen/monitored by the lending country,which MUST ensure @ that point in time, that such funds r put to proper use, by the recepient country,who have traditionally turned a blind eye towards such monitoring/evaluation, in lieu of certain other geo-political benefits, and have continued 2 provide such funding,despite it's being misused(as per criticism onthis forum)without holding the recipient country accountable 4 the same and despite being democracies, theselves have liberally funded dictatorships in Asia and Africa.......This, my fellow humans, is the time 2 b, above all humane and helping 2wards ur fellow human beings...
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Pakistan will be the Taliban and their local Islamist and other Pashtun supporters will be the new leaders of Pakistan in the near future, they have shown resilience and now they are doing better than the government in providing aid to the most affected areas by this disaster.
They will definetely have their recognition by the vast majority of the practicing sunny muslims of Pakistan which makes about 70 to 80 of the population then the worries of the western powers will be real and not a mock up like Afghanistan with the hidden agenda of builing the trans caspian oil & gas pipelines through Afghanistan to Karachi as well as the exploitation of the Afghan local mineral resources.
Sayonara
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After readfing this article, firstly I would ask why the BBC is using my licence fees on the expense of large numbers of overseas staff. You are not the World Broadcasting Corporation after all. Your huge international focus might give the corporation a warm fuzzy glow, but is it truely what licence fee payers want.
Secondly, I personally will not give any of my hard earned, heavily taxed income to any other country regardless of what disaster befalls it. The excuses given by others regarding support of terrorism, corruption in government etc. mean little to me.
My reasons are:-
1) I have just about been charitied out by the endless appeals for funds from charity after charity we get in the UK.
2) I am no longer affected emotionally by scenes of disaster, as the constant stream of pictures and information driven at us by the media in their relentless stream of shock journalism has anaethetised me to this type of thing.
3) I believe that (as 'they' say {not exactly sure which 'they' it is, but obviously not the same "they" that carry out terrorist attacks}) charity begins at home.
Thus I will looks after family first, then friends, then my local area.
That said , with the current state of the economy, I also think that UK tax revenues should be used for UK citizens (and they are a lot of them in need of help) and any Government donations should come from the existing International development fund budget.
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Wikipedia: "In 2006, countries with a Muslim majority had an average population growth rate of 1.8% per year. This compares with a world population growth rate of 1.12% per year".
Between 1950 and 2010, UK population grew by 24%.
Pakistan grew by 359%, to be 3.5 times bigger than the UK. If continued, in 10 years 28 million more will need saving from flood and starvation.
A country that supports itself should perhaps follow whatever religious practices it likes.
But Pakistan cannot do this. Due to population pressure, it is housing people in remote areas that become flooded.
Contraceptive pellets injected under the skin cost too much.
Pakistan must quickly change its sexual practices, and religion must not stand in the way.
In the West, we have got used to classes of girls putting condoms on models, but this bizarre practice has saved us from AIDS.
On the web, not all Muslim sites take dangerous views of contraceptive sexual practices, but some do.
Pakistan's growth suggests that their local religion does. I quote from
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Arab-Culture-2719/2009/10/Oral-Sex-Islam.htm
"All praise is due to Allaah (alone). There is no doubt that (the request of) this practise from the husband of the questioner is a disgusting practise and obviously disliked. ... possibility that by ejaculation, Mazi occurs and enters the mouth of the partner. There is consensus amongst the Fuqahaa that Mazi is Najis (impure)."
We must not be blackmailed by threats of terrorism. Pakistan must put its house in order.
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There has been a lot of debate about mistrust on Pakistani Government by the public as well as by donors. I beleive there are no reasons for this mistrust. This is the Government elected by the silent people of Pakistan. The vocal minority is only propagating to create problems for the Government to meet its own objectives. Any Government would be overwhelmed by such a huge disaster. We must do away with politics (local as well as international) and personal dislikings and stand with the Government of Pakistan in this hour of need. Only in this way the desparate people of Pakistan should be helped. Only in this way the people of Pakistan would build trust on the democratic system. Otherwise, the extreme right wing terrorists would benefit in a chaotic situation. The other possibility is taking over by the army once again.
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Which way you at it, I firmly believe that this disaster will be the wake up call for the whole of Pakistan people to vote/support their new leadership and this time I think the army is not going to stop it unless they wanna make a massacre.
The stage is set for the Islamist groups to rule the country and will probably happens sooner than later, does not matter how much USA and the West trying to show good will, the majority out there they hate the US in particular for abuses and crimes not only against the Pakistan population but in other countries where is supporting the killings of innocent muslims either directly or indirectly.
Anyway, will see how the whole thing unfold, maybe it will be something like Iraq where the Iranian Mullahs are ready for the great take away by proxy with thanks to the US and UK invasion iniiative.
Eurodude
St. Etienne
Paris
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I fully agree with the decision to broadcast a DEC appeal on the BBC for Pakistan. But it angers me that a couple of years ago, the BBC refused to broadcast a similar appeal for the Palestinian people after the bombardment by Israel. It seems that some people's suffering is deemed worthy of support - and others not. What a crazy world.
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I feel terrible for what is happening to the people of Pakistan, my heart goes out to them but how can we as a country (UK) offer so much tax payers money in aid when we are in such a position that we cannot even afford to help ourselves.
It is true that a price cannot be put on life but we must simply make a stand and say, we feel for you but just cannot simply afford to help.
I personally am struggling to pay my bills and so I am deeply sorry but I will not be donating anything, I wish I was in a better position that I could help but unfortunatley I just cannot, and I think the UK Government should be saying the same thing!!
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It seems that the common thread in all arguments against donating 4 the flood victims in Pakistan is,"a land breeding/exporting terrorism"," they all like Taliban and hate the western way of life" and " corrupt leaders/government".Let's look i2 the genesis of all of these 3 popular reasons being advanced.1st"land breeding/exporting terrorism".All my dear colleagues advancing this argument,apparently have very short memories.These terrorists/taliban r the very same holy warriors,that were created/trained & bred 2 fight the west's holy war against communist Russia in Afghanistan.Yes,these Frankenstiens r a co-production of the US,UK & Europe,created to save their own skin,since their governments/ troops were reluctant 2 take on the Russian Bear directly,which would have led 2 confrontation between heavily armed nuclear powers.So, it was considered convenient 2 fight the Russians indirectly, in the killing fields of Afghanistan,with holy warriors launched 4rm Pakistan.After the Afghan War,with the Russian Bear wounded & having withdrawn,the creators of taliban,conveniently abandoned them,without as much as a hint of a rehabilitation programme.Deprived,frustrated and angered @ being abandoned with such callous ease/indifference, they continued with the only trade they had learnt in life.....Killing.Initially, it was Holy War or Jihad against Communism,now it became Jihad against those who abandoned them....so now they were branded as Terrorists and hunted down,ruining not only Afghanistan,but also Pakistan,the only 2 nations that were instrumental in the defeat of Russia in Afghanistan.
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The 2nd 1 is "they all hate the western way of life".Nothing could be further 4rm the truth.The fact that people 4rm Pakistan still prefer 2 migrate/settle in the West,especially US & UK strongly negates this myth,generated by the hyperactive media,post 9/11.All Pakistanis living abroad have always lived in peace with their neighbours, in the western societies and have integrated reasonably well.The majority of Pakistanis,just like any other folks around the world,in any country are liberal,loving people,who want equality,fairplay & social justice and a free,liberal & tolerant society.This can also be corroborated by all the tourists that visit Pakistan each year, and have found the people here to be very loving,hospitable,friendly and peaceful.They do NOT subscribe 2 the taliban version of Islam.There is only 1 version of Islam,which teaches peace,service of humanity,tolerance and above all,non violence.It only allows 2 take up arms 2 protect against cruelty & 4 the protection of the weak.Factions/groupings are a part of all religions,who have their fair shares of liberals,conservatives and orthodox.
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The 3rd 1,was "corrupt leaders/governments"...this the actual/factual reason 4 Pakistanis becoming increasingly alienated 4rm Western Governments, NOT their people.Yes we've had our fair share of corrupt & inept leaders, & God knows we're sick n tired of them,too.Have my dear colleagues here given it a wee bit of thought, as 2 how they manage 2 survive in their positions,despite popular anger/hatred against them.....the answer is.....courtesy of u'r governments,who continue 2 SUPPORT & FUND them,despite being democratic/liberal governments,themselves.They never hold these leaders/governments accountable 4 the monies lent 2 them,as in money vs output on ground.All they do is throw money @ them 4 geo-political favours and never bother 2 check how purposefully it's being spent or is just lining a few pockets.All Western democratic governments have always preferred 2 support & liberally fund dictators,military rulers and royal families in Asia,Africa & Middle East.These are the real reasons that are creating the conditions we see 2day.The severe climate changes being witnessed now r also a result of excessive use of fossil fuels,CFCs and deforestation by developed Western economies,NOT by the developing or poor economies.So,yes the RESPONSIBILTY does mainly lie with the developed countries,who should now live up2 that RESPONSIBILITY and support & contribute 2 alleviate the suffering of millions in Pakistan...Thank u
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All this perplexes me. Are mutual Islamic countries donating to the DEC appeal?
Would it cost say; Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the oil rich Gulf states much if they gave a few quid? They make billions each year, I doubt if the World slump has affected them much. They could quite easily resolve the question of money overnight! Or is it not in their nature?
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@119 reflector2
It seems unlikley to me that Islamic countries will be donating to the DEC appeal as that is a UK based composite charitable organisation.
The question is whether Islamic countries are doing their bit in support of their fellow Muslims in distress. I imagine they are, but I'm not sure how one can validate this.
It's difficult to imagine that the Saudis and Kuwaitis haven't put their hands in their pockets given their almost unimaginable national wealth.
But, that said, there are so many strands to Islam!!!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
dear sir as im here just to say PLEASE can you as the BOSS put top of the pops from the start back on the tv as there was never more fun than watching it on thursday night.please dont just desmiss this messege please think about it.....or put the show on dvd as i think it would sell like hot cakes.menny thanks.........neil brock.south wales.
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It`s hard to understand, why this happens to these people. Most of them are poor and have literally nothing. Millions of people are affected by the floods this August. In a way we don`t look at this people as they were from the western countries. But in reality, these are exacltly the same people, with the same needs.
If you can help in any form, support them. There is a huge need for fresh water, food and medical care. They do need our help. It`s a chance for our world to show, that we are one community, no matter what religion or belief.
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Floods in Pakistan - it is true no one can avert the decree of fate. But what if man kind is responsible for it.
Humanity is the missing ingredient, people are not being fair enough to get hold of the whole situation.
Thing which i have witnessed by my self is ---
Females deprived of food and water living in conditions where they are deprived and used. An eye witness has depicted that females are actually sexually abused and used for exchange of food materials.
The question now raised will you aid Pakistan to help poor - are you sure that your aid is being used the right way? It is not the aid is being held and not given out.
People know this - it is but a shame and should be covered by media.
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Lots of people have said that the government in Pakistan is corrupt and Politicians are nothing but vultures praying on the dead, the scavengers. I am a Pakistani and i totally agree, but the question is why UK and USA have always supported the CORRUPT POLITICIANS since long. Because they never wanted the Nation to develop and in this bargain they got their hidden motives fulfilled through these puppet politicians.
People of Pakistan are the most caring, loving and loyal people in the world, they are hospitable, they are innocent. And i am ONLY talking here about the ordinary day citizens not the elite and the corrupt ones.
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The following quote was taken from your the BBC website - One man turned his anger on me: "What about your country?" he said, heatedly. "Why aren't you giving more?" The only question I would like to ask is, if the same situation were to happen in the UK would their Government give aid to us?? I am compassionate but sometimes enough is enough !!
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"119. At 3:46pm on 20 Aug 2010, reflector2 wrote:
All this perplexes me. Are mutual Islamic countries donating to the DEC appeal?
Would it cost say; Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the oil rich Gulf states much if they gave a few quid? They make billions each year, I doubt if the World slump has affected them much. They could quite easily resolve the question of money overnight! Or is it not in their nature? "
When people are dying in their thousands - does it matter if someone else falls miserably short in offering assistance?
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I want to record my disgust at the way thus morning a member of our parliament described on News24 between 0800 - 0900 our ability & generosity to assist the poor people in Pakistan.
He then said and I thimk his comment is accurately here " That the plight of these people in perspective was 1000 miles or the size of England!? I must say my knowledge of geography differs with that and I think approx that is the length of Gt Britain
Did he mean to say that only England is generous and that we in Wales N Ireland and Scotland are not!!!! Of course not But isnt it about time he did Geography O Level and learned to say Britain to include us all?!!!
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I agree with Khan (125)that the average Pakistani folks are warm and hospitable, I have experienced that as a European caucasian traveling through the country in various occassions during assignments there.
In the other hand, I have also experienced the High Society of Islamabad where the well to do Pakistanis with caporal sedans in the parkway, an army of servants and a bar in the house that will be the envy some pubs in France have parties almost every night, of course, inviting other rich and famous as well as the foreign Embassies dignitaries ( except those from Saudi Arabia as they do not want to give a bad example to one of their best financial supporters.
The Pakistani people need to wake up one day and take charge of their life ( the army would not like that thus trouble could be there )but if the vast majority look for change, they can have it, it happen in other places before but, apparently it is easier to be divided and conquered than united and in charge.
The disaster which we are seing now with 1/4 of Pakistan flooded and specially the food basket belt, this could have been prevented if lessons were learned and do not allow people but settle in the original course of the Indus, the leadership of the country has that responsibility for its people, if they care, now we see at least 20 million people displaced and an unertain future for those in need.
Sayonara
Xa
St. Etienne
Paris
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It of course represents another chance for local extremists to curry favour with the local populace - for whom I have every sympathy. But it also shows how few £££s go to relief, and how much into the pockets of local civil servants.
But we shouldn't be holy about that: it's every bit as bad here. £1 in 8 of our National Debt is pension rights awarded to themselves by just 600K civil service mandarins. Reaad more in The Slog at Blogger's blogspot.
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After reading the blather spouted by dotconnect & Xa, I think it is time to burst some myths & change some paradigms.
Myth Number 1: If the West had not abandoned the jihadis after the the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, everything would be milk & honey today. While there is undeniable fact to the West co-created the Taliban, it was the Pakistani military & ISI that converted it into an international terrorist organization. This had little to do with the uneployability of local Pashtuns - since their way of life has changed little over centuries & are not dependent on government policies for their rural day-to-day life. The non-Pashtun tribes did not seem to be as affected by the "abandonment" by the West as the Pashtuns. I was against the US aid to the Jihadis in the 1980's as I foresaw today's reality even back then & said so to every American I met. The Taliban is not an extension of Pashtun angst, but a tool of Pakistani & Saudi foreign policy.
Myth Number 2: This lack of willingness to help is because we lump all Moslems together with the terrorists. False - I have lived & worked on four continents & know enough to distinguish between the different shades of grey. There is a great chasm between the citizens of many Islamic countries & their governments' policies (Iran being an example). This does not extend to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia where poll after poll as well as my personal experience shows that the majority of people share the anti-western, anti-minority religion views of the hard-liners. Such a view does not extend to the majority of Ismaili, Sufi, Balinese, Indian or Turkish muslims. To simply attribute these views to lack of education or opportunities does not make it any less dangerous or realistic. To the Pakistanis who hate us - then make do without us & quit begging!!!
Myth Number 3: Pakistanis are suffering due to lack of Western Aid. False - the West continues to pour aid to the Pakistani government who pushes most of that into their defence budgets. The amount Pakistan spends on defence is more than sufficient to take care of this disaster. Reallocate you funds & priorities!!!
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Myth Number 4: - the emigration of Pakistanis to the West shows they are not anti-western. False - this purely an economic arrangement. The studies in the UK of the lack of integration of Pakistanis versus other immigrants, the lack of educational advancement of Pakistani youth compared to other immigrants, the nurturing of home-grown Pakistani terrorists in the UK & US are all indicators of another reality. Please spare me the anecdotes of your Pakistani doctor or dentist - there are always exceptions to every rule.
Finally, dotconnect makes the feeble attempt at equating liberalism with intellect. This is a dangerous myth that needs to be destroyed. Liberalism ignores much of the reality of the world & life in general. It is based on the paradigm that all humans share the same core values and if everyone would hug and sing "Koombyah" everyone could just get along. It ignores the fact that there are very different core values at play in the world. I do not share the core value that it is OK for me to kill a female member of my family because they do not wear the veil or fall in love with someone I did not choose for them. I do not share the core value of female circumcision. I do not share the core value that people should be stoned in public because they were "adulterous". This view also ignores the fact that there are predators waiting to pounce on the sheep. I believe a lot of "liberals" need to pull their heads out of their fundaments and realize that what they have been smelling was not roses. The Pakistanis have exported ill-will for decades - time for them to taste the fruits of their labour!!!
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Myth Number 5: If we don't give money to Pakistan, it will fall under the control if the extremists & the war on terror will suffer. In reality the country is already ruled in the shadows by the ISI which is also the paymaster of the extremists. The country's lukewarm efforts against terrorism are just part of the ploy to coax more aid out of the West. The counter-terrorism efforts of the Pakistani military have been against the Pakistani Taliban & not against the Afghan Taliban - thus they have not done much to help the West to-date. I will repeat again - the ISI budget alone is sufficient to deal with this disaster. Every penny you contribute simply lets the government off the hook!!!
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Finally, I believe it was former Pakistani President Zulfikhar Ali Bhutto that said something to the effect that Pakistanis would eat grass if that was the price they had to pay for having nuclear weapons. Time to "Put-up or Shut-up"!!!
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Dear Mamba5
I enjoyed considering your 131-133 entries although I have to say I do not enjoy the tone of your responses to other contributors.
To describe the contributions of other bloggers as "blather" is rather disrespectful. Isn't one of the purposes of this particular form of communication to share differing opinions?
For me, the contibutions to the debate of dotconnect and Xa are as interesting and useful to the debate as are your own.
Please continue to make your views known but do so in a civil manner - as my granny used to say, "Civility costs nothing".
Your 132 myth de-bunking point was particularly interesting but there were, I would suggest, two "economic arrangements" in play when mass immigration from the sub-continent took place.
In my neck of the woods the Pakistani influx, mailny from the Punjab, was to feed the needs of local textile factory owners who were unable to recruit sufficient members of the indigenous population to meet their labour needs.
Of course the government of the day failed to take any long term view about the consequences of this policy as they were focussed only on the next election. That's the whole problem with our political system but that's a matter for another blog on another day.
Your point about failure to integrate is one with which I entirely concur, as far as my local community is concerned. Social inter-action is virtually non-existent and I'm sure that this supports your point regarding the educational under-achievement of the youth of ethnic Pakistani origin.
There are, however, locally, many examples of other immigrant groups who totally fail to integrate and live in localised enclaves. These include Italians, Poles, Lithuanians and even Irish who all have their own segregated clubs where they meet socially amongst themselves but not with others. Of course, all these groups are not differentiated by skin colour so are perhaps less well noticed.
Society is a complex matter is it not.
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I am disappointed to read the comments from many of the bloggers about a country in the state of worst natural disaster in recent history. Please dont donate if you dont want to, but atleast show some human side, show some sympathy for the people in suffering, for the people in need.
They are not the ones with any specific religion, race or color, these poor souls probably dont even know what a nuclear weapon can do.
The terrorism mania should not effect our humanity!!! and i am affraid thats the case here.
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Quote from Steve Kingstone - BBC News, Washington
"The US senators are asking for ... the Scottish government to produce supporting documents, explaining why they concluded Megrahi had only three months to live. As yet, there is no public evidence to indicate that any individual specialist gave that prognosis."
The fact is that the Scottish Government did NOT conclude Mr Megrahi "had only three months to live".
Quote from YOUR own filmed coverage of Kenny MacAskill's speech.
"He may die sooner. He may die earlier."
Question!
Is Mr Kingstones "analysis" based on incompetent reporting OR a deliberate attempt to deceive?
Either way, both he and the BBC have a responsibility to report the facts accurately!
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@137 alexanderbraden
Don't wait around too long for BBC reporters to report facts accurately! You'll be there forever.
The BBC is funded through a UK government poll tax and the fat cats and editors at the corporation know which side of their bread is buttered.
"What's the line today boss" is the daily call to No. 10 before the 6.00am bulletin.
Have you not listened to Radio 4 recently?
You're quite right to ask the question but don't expect an answer.
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To EBAHGUM - I stand chastened by your observation on the tone of my posts. I do agree that all sides to a discussion should be considered. However, I am frustrated by statements made by the left and its apologists being accepted as truisms in the media without any sort of challenge whatsoever.
Re. the integration of sub-continental immigrants, the real mystery is why the Pakistanis fare so poorly in integration or taking advantages of the opportunities vis-a-vis Indians, Sri Lankans and Bangladeshis. I am not really as surprised by the ghettoization of first generation immigrants - it is an issue if their children continue the trend. As you point out, the segregation of first generation immigrants is endemic to all new arrivals regardless of race or colour - people seek out their own in a strange land.
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I've given to this appeal but I also gave to the east Asian Tsunami appeal some years ago. That appeal was massively successful with hundreds of millions of pounds. But since then I've discovered that Thailand is one of the most corrupt places in the world. How much of that money was actually used for the benefit of victims? Could we have a follow-up programme about how it acutally turned out? I say this because Pakistan is also seen as being corrupt & it would be a pity if lessons had been learned.
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@Mamba5, 132
// "Finally, dotconnect makes the feeble attempt at equating liberalism with intellect."
If you think that, then I'm afraid you've extrapolated too much from my post 89. I certainly don't equate liberalism with intellect. I do however recognize that liberalism and intellect both tend to be kneejerk terms of abuse one hears more often from those prone to making sweeping derogatory statements about Muslims rather than from those who don't. It's only a correlation of course, not a cast iron rule; but I think it's a worthwhile observation nonetheless.
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i have to say i am totally disgraced my some of the comments from british citizens. i am a biritsh born pakistani and had always had high regards for the bri=trish as being compassionate people bu my views are slowly chaging when i read so many comments driven by hate and racism.
you al point figners and say pakistan spend x amount (and noboidy even knows wot x is) on nuclear weapons so why should we help them?
well first the poor villagers are not the ones that decide to spend their budget on nuclear weapons, same we dont decide in UK if we should give our money to banks.
the western world over the past 100yrs has spent far more on their military than anyone else, but i dnt hear anyone complain that our current finacnial situation could have been resolved if we didnt goto so many wars unessarily.
Israel gets 5-10billoin every yr from the US, they dnt need that money, the average israeli is far better off than the average american, the USA gave pakistan 3billion for militray spending a few yrs ago to help them fight the war terror, yet cant give even 50million for the poor villagers who are devastated by thw floods.
the uk is going bankrupt because our government is as corrupt as any other spending our tax money to save rich bankers lives, while the poor are getting taxed more and more.
its not the pakistan governemnt that needs to set their priorities straight, all of em do.
people are saying give to haiti but not pakistan, wot makes them think haiti is not corrupt, just because their corrption is not plastered all over your newspapers. you people sould go take ur wife and kids to haiti and learn first hand how nice and civilised they are.
simple truth is, since 9/11 the world has developed hate for muslims, and you dnt wanna help, its better to admit it than make excuses for urself trying to find another to reason to justify why oyu dnt wanna donate.
you'd give you money to millionaire bankers, but not flooded villagers? you accuse these villagers of investin in nuclear programmes and terrorists regimes?
has everyone forgot or do they just not know that pakistan lost 3500 soldiers fighting the taliban and have makde thousands of arrests, which is FAR FAR more than the biritsh effort in afghanistan, their fighting our war and causing civil unrest in their owny country by doing it, if that isnt an ulitmate sacrifice, wot else you peopel want? their 15 yr old daughter?
is the lack of god in peoples lives which results in lack of compassion for mankind.
simple fact is racism is growing ripe in this country, more than ever. to all the poeople that dont want to donate, your not fooling anyobdy but urselves.
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alemcodon - What a silly post. These donations are coming from private individuals, not governments. All you've managed to do is irritate most people who are going to read it with your "is it cause I's Muslim" attitude.
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@Squaids1 - Who says alemcodon was just referring to donations to the DEC appeal? Others here have raised (in a disapproving way) the topic of the British government's donations. In light of that, alemcodon's points are entirely appropriate.
By the way, how you can call a post like that silly, yet remain curiously silent when people come out with the kind of blatant prejudice to which alemcodon is probably referring ("I would not donate as look at the devistation some of their people cause when they bomb and terrorise us") just says it all frankly.
As for your maligning "is it cause I's Muslim" remark, don't be too flippant, because based on several posts here, it's clear that it really IS because the flood victims are mostly Muslim. And you don't have to be Pakistani or Muslim to recognize that.
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Pakistan has a terrible image problem amongst large sections of the western world. Reasons include ongoing concerns that elements of the Pakistani government are supporting terrorism and the often sensational media coverage of such concerns.
For a relatively balanced Irish perspective on the Pakistan flood: http://rulehibernia.com/2010/08/aid-fails-to-flood-pakistan/
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In reply to alemcodon.
Wikipedia quotes IMF figures for per-capita income as follows:
US $46,381
Israel $28,393
Pakistan $2,661
So his claim that "the average israeli is far better off than the average american" is clearly invalid.
The rate of population rise in Israel is rather worrying, being 349%overall between 1950 and 2000.
However, Israel clearly feeds its people and deals with environmental problems on its own.
Also, between these dates the Muslim population grew by 736%, the Jewish by 310%.
Jewish immigration clearly clouds the measure of birth-rate, so if we look at the interval between 1995 and 2000, the Jewish population grew by 9.5%, against the Muslim increase of 19.6%. Not bad for a down-trodden minority.
This does tend to support my thesis that population growth amongst Muslims world-wide, is far in excess of what this planet can support: some characteristic of the religion seems to be causing this very dangerous trend, and it needs to be tackled.
Pakistan is obviously a very poor country, and our hearts go out to them at the present time.
I was particularly impressed today by news footage of their army in action aiding the populace, and was beginning to think I should contribute financially.
But you know, I recall the uncle of one of the Bradford bombers saying that it was "Nothing to do with us. The boy was a little unruly so we sent him to Pakistan for religious training, and when he came back he was very obedient."
I believe I recall that UK home security costs in preventing further terrorist attacks were costing the UK tax-payer £350M per annum. I haven't checked this: perhaps alemcodon might research this, and report back to us?
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Dotconnect wrote: "As for your maligning "is it cause I's Muslim" remark, don't be too flippant, because based on several posts here, it's clear that it really IS because the flood victims are mostly Muslim. And you don't have to be Pakistani or Muslim to recognize that"
AlemCodon suggests directly that anyone not contributing is a racist. ergo "simple fact is racism is growing ripe in this country, more than ever. to all the poeople that dont want to donate, your not fooling anyobdy but urselves."
He also states: "simple truth is, since 9/11 the world has developed hate for muslims, and you dnt wanna help, its better to admit it than make excuses for urself trying to find another to reason to justify why oyu dnt wanna donate."
Feel free to agree with him. I don't.
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@Squaids1, #147
But would you not agree that there really is a strong whiff of anti-Muslim sentiment behind a great deal of the refusal to donate? I will agree that alemcodon was wrong in using words like "all" and in not making his/her point in a more measured way - but that said, I do actually agree with the essence of what s/he is saying, and it's very obvious from listening to radio phone in shows and reading comments on other news websites that he has a point. Reading through this thread alone, several people are making barely any effort to conceal "the Muslim factor". Would you not accept this? And if so, why do you (and others) feel less inclined to remark on this?
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Dotconnect: No, I wouldn't agree "behind a great deal" as that implies the majority of people who don't donate are anti-muslim.
Are there some comments on this thread that seem to be? Sure. But that doesn't justify an off-topic rant about Yanks and Jews and how everyone who does not contribute is a nasty ol' racist.
My initial post was a response to his, which was the latest on the thread when I read it. I don't appreciate any implication that by not responding to other posts that you had already responded to before I even got here somehow represents bigotry on my part.
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Squaids, 149
"A great deal" does not imply "the majority" but it does imply "a lot" - certainly enough for it to be noteworthy and relevant to the discussion.
As for this...
"I don't appreciate any implication that by not responding to other posts that you had already responded to before I even got here somehow represents bigotry on my part."
...bigotry has nothing to do with it. Just a curious sense of priorities. And you certainly don't have to respond with "an off-topic rant about Yanks and Jews and how everyone who does not contribute is a nasty ol' racist." It's interesting that you only present that as your alternative.
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Despite alemcodon's rant, which I am sure will have brought back a lot of very negative memories for everyone, I have just contributed £10 to the DEC Pakistani Floods Appeal.
I was very impressed by news footage of the Pakistani army helping the populace, and that triggered my decision to donate.
In case the Pakistani Government is monitoring this blog, I want to point out that the survival of your country is going to be dependent on charity for several years to come.
Unless I see timely and effective action over the radicalist madrassas in Pakistan, I shall not be contributing again, and I shall consider writing to my MP to urge the UK government to reduce aid.
I am sure that a number of charities will be monitoring this blog, and I want them to understand that I also want to see early and effective action by them to counteract the over-population problem in Pakistan.
If any readers share my concerns, I suggest that they post a blog along similar lines (why not just copy it?) after making a donation.
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What security is present for the women and children of Pakistan? Criminals are free to beat, rape, and steal from the vulnerable. The United Nations should offer details of soldiers to keep the order.
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I have to say, as a child i was only interested in world news. I have watched this world change, evolve, fight, move, desire and everything else. There are so many people that are willing to hurt so many others for all sorts of reasons. Religion is 1 of them and probably the most powerful and common of all of them.
Within that scope, many people move around and when they get to where they are going, they try to make chanes to other societies, impose their will to the point that our religion offends them. We have been forced to change our way of thinking. We cant say our lords prayer any longer or sing our
national anthem, it offends them so.
We have adapted to changes and moved on and over the years we seemed to have forgotten all the fighting our fathers died for establishing our country. Multi-culturalism was adpoted and our borders opened up to take in many millions of people. I do remember that these people wanted to be here for good reasons. Many were poor, abused, tortured, terrorized by nasty governments, rebels etc. So we agreed to let our borders open up. I must say, even I , who love all people alkie am forced to wonder if we did the right thing.
Let me tell you why. So many of those troubles came here, bad politics, raging religion that believes in hurting/killing others in the name of God.
Having the nerve to say our religion offends you so. There is no other way to say this, but people who do believe in God; for real, do not get offended by others who believe in God when by definition is almost the same God with the same religious base. Be good, treat others with respect, do no harm, do not judge others thats his job etc. Somewhere in there with some societies, wife beating is ok, wife murdering is ok, wife abuse is ok and all to favor the man. WOW THATS DEFFINETLY GODS WAY ALRIGHT!!..Well WRONG. My main point now is to move to why sometimes things move so slow. Well everything I just mentioned is not directed to Pakistan in paticular, but to all the troubles they are involved in.
I cant see how any 1 has nerve to blame us on how we feel as a whole about sending money. We dont want to see it fall in the hands of our enemies, which are many in numbers. They also have followers in certain governments over there, sympathizers and maybe some of them are leaders in Al-Qaeda. Were fed up with feeling mislead and wondering who is good and who is not. Our brothers and sisters die trying to help the good people in countries of dire need due to men who squander and supress a countries wealth from its people for themselves and their friends. Then its even sadder to think that those people we go die for, come over here or campaigne against our ways/religious believes. Instead of blending in with it and celebrating in the freedoms it offers (every ones religion can be taught at home, and children can be taught to understand), complaints start. Things are not fair. People want to see their flags wave, have their own schools, politics. Honestly its getting a bit crazy. Go home then! I say fix your own counrty instead of running away. In closing we need to be honest. I think were all a bit fed up. If your going to fight terrorizm then fight it. Fight it with everything u have. Pakistan has been accused by many world leaders of not doing enough and harboring terrorists. They have weapons of mass destruction and their people and infrastructure are so poor. Their must be a new way of thinking over there. A revolution. Men must not put themselves so high up on a pedistal. People must be cared for and not slaughtered. The ones who will do us harm are no better than barbarians them selves. They prove this by killing so many of their own and their children and women in the name of God.
If we go back in time a couple hundred years or so its easy to see where so much of this division comes from. Parents with basic believes, no education talked to their children about hatered, racism, murder because of the way they were treated. Considering all of the terrible things that happened to them because of bad men in power, people felt like their kind was hated. These feelings get passed down as do the stories. Hatred builds and divisions start. Religion changes because those tribes dont believe in the same things any more and now its even ok to kill your neighbour. People become innocently involved in believing because of the stories told to them by their loved ones. I see that people, a society can become like a raging bull if left alone with no one really listening or caring. In the last 30 years there has been some positive changes, but in the last 15 years and less there has been even more great changes and things can still change a lot more. People are reaching out and listening. We need to see that our efforts do not go in vain. We need to see change too. I seriously believe things will get a lot better for every 1 as soon as people open their eyes and stop treating people they are supposed to love poorly. If you believe in God, stick to it. Stop trying to worry bout other people...THATS GODS JOB!!! You make sure your family is on the right path, let your neighbour do his job. If he does not, God deals with him, not you. Peace is the fastest way to recovery.
For the record, Westerners dont want to rule your country or take away your way of life. We want to make it better because we have to. We have to because we need you. In order for us to advance we need you to advance. Educate the people. Every one has the right to eat and have shelter, feel love, pray to God if thats what they want or need. And I say, even if your society is going through changes, ways of thinking, it should never take away from or change religion. Changes are brought about to advance societies, educate the people so we can all live in the future. Shoot for the stars if u will. Trust must be earned. When money or food is sent for those in need it must get there. Not taken or squandered by greedy men. Unfortunately this happens all too often and the cycle always seems to repeat itself. Were tired and sick of all this. These changes must happen or we might as well just look after ourselves. Let you fight your own wars and solve your own problems. Theres so much more to say.
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For DEC appeals to be on the BBC: "The DEC agencies must be in a position to provide effective and swift assistance, at such scale, to justify a national appeal".
Did the agencies prove they were in such a position in Haiti? They still haven't.
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An interesting discourse between Squaids1 and dotconnect.
My own perception of this particular blog was that it was Muslim-critical in general, and anti-Pakistan in particular.
Muslim-critical because of the opinions expressed about the perceived lack of financial/humanitarian response from other Muslim states. In particular the wealthy middle eastern ones.
Anti-Pakistan because of all the specific references to the focus of government spending on armaments at the expense of infrastructure, past corruption, etc.
Pakistan has had 70 years since partition to develop its political and social systems and seems to me to have made minimal meaningful progress, despite the zillions of external aid that have been poured into the country. Jinah must be turning in his grave.
The phrase "Physician heal thyself" springs to mind.
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Re. alemcodon@142
"you al point figners and say pakistan spend x amount (and noboidy even knows wot x is) on nuclear weapons so why should we help them?"
The Pakistani defence budget is a known fact Throw in the covert ISI budget & Pakistan has more than enough to cover this disaster. Yes the West spends on weapons - but not at the neglect of basic amenities for its citizens. If Pakistan's own leaders don't care for their people, why should the West? Instead of purchasing F-16' in the name of anti-terrorism (what a joke), use the funds for canals, irrigation & most of all for education.
"people are saying give to haiti but not pakistan, wot makes them think haiti is not corrupt, just because their corrption is not plastered all over your newspapers."
Not sure if you have read anything about Haiti - but everyone knows it is a totally corrupt country. That is not the issue. The issue is that Haitians are not running around the globe spreading terror & trying to kill the citizens of potential donor countries. They are not squandering billions on nuclear weapons & submarines. Their daily narrative is not "We hate the West!...Death to Infidels!...Looks like my hut is getting wet!!!...Why don't you infidels do something to help me?!!!" Even amid all the suffering in Pakistan, they still found time today to blow-up a mosque no less! Yes I will definitely be donating to a people with that astute sense of priorities!
Re. your other comments about bailing out the banks - I agree with you. I was totally opposed. Don't know about the UK banks, but the ones that got bailed out in the US have pretty much repaid the funds & the Canadian ones did not need to be bailed out.
As far as Pakistani soldiers dying fighting the Taliban - that is pretty much the same as someone who kills their parents asking for sympathy because they are now an orphan. No sympathy here - you reap what you sow. Play with cobras & they will bite you.
Re. Sean56z
"The United Nations should offer details of soldiers to keep the order. "
May I suggest there are about a million Indian & several thousand Afghans troops that would volunteer in a heartbeat!! ;>)
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There is no way I can donate to help. Pakistan is the country where all terrorists visit before performing their dirty deeds. The government will not bring Osama Bin Laden to justice and will not allow us to do it. Did anyone donate to the hurricane Katrina disaster in Louisiana? Of course not. Why should we help now. Produce Bin Laden and destroy all terrorist organizations out to kill innocent people and there may be some sympathy for your plight.
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dotconnect wrote:
"A great deal" does not imply "the majority" but it does imply "a lot" - certainly enough for it to be noteworthy and relevant to the discussion.
And you have discussed it already. At length.
"...bigotry has nothing to do with it. Just a curious sense of priorities. And you certainly don't have to respond with "an off-topic rant about Yanks and Jews and how everyone who does not contribute is a nasty ol' racist." It's interesting that you only present that as your alternative."
You queried why I characterised Alemcodon's post as silly. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question: i.e "how can you find that post silly".
I could also suggest how "interesting" it is how you try and characterise anyone who won't contribute as "mean" and readers of the "daily mail". I could even term it "a curious sense of priorities" and then sit back smugly, oddly pleased with my latest inference in the same way a child is pleased at the sight of a full potty.
But I won't. I'd rather read Ebahgum's latest and agree. Only Pakistanis can change Pakistan for the better. Anything else is a conceit.
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159, Squaids
"I could also suggest how "interesting" it is how you try and characterise anyone who won't contribute as "mean" and readers of the "daily mail". "
Talk about stretching an obvious indulgence on my part. OK let me make it clear for you Squaids: I don't believe any/everyone not donating is necessarily mean or reads the Daily Mail. There, I hope that puts your mind at rest.
"...and then sit back smugly, oddly pleased with my latest inference in the same way a child is pleased at the sight of a full potty."
Oh you had to drag the conversation down didn't you? What a shame.
I will certainly agree with Ebahgum and dedicatedprofessional. The Pakistani government need to reassess their priorities, though they have one hell of a job turning that country around. Foreign governments withholding aid is one possibility but as I said earlier, withholding emergency aid at a time like this is another matter entirely. Tough love is fine as far as it goes, but when it starts to foster the conditions in which extremism thrives (poverty, desperation and a sense of isolation from the world - all likely outcomes from this flood and insufficient help), it becomes utterly counterproductive. Yes denying emergency aid could force the Pakistani government to act differently. But it could also send Pakistan in the opposite direction. To his credit I think David Cameron realises that.
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It took alot of time to read all of your comments and i agree with you all. its your tax money and your have to think for all your self first.
This flood has open a new business ventures for our Government in Pakistan who is just seeking the donation to come in so that all can loot the money and investment again in UK economy.
I have one question from all of you that is why country men in UK is letting them do this.
Why UK Government is giving shelter to all corrupt Pakistan Politicians and retired Army Personnel. why they there is no law about the livings they are making in center of London in their luxury apartments.
Why there is no law in UK for corrupt people likes of Altaf Hussain he was given an asylum who murdered 32 innocent people in Karachi, why UK have given shelter to Musharaf and been a general how he is making his living if he havent looted any money from Pakistan.
What abt Shukat Aziz is making his living in UK.
why they are letting zardari to investment in real estate property in London, all those who are making comments have to realized they are part and parcel of this what is happening in Pakistan,
In last i can only suggest if u Guys are thinking to helping people then please please for GOD sake dont let the donation go directly in government pocket they wont use this money for the betterment of these people lives.......... this money will one day will be used in buying apartments in park lane or a palaces in Surrey.
Go to places in flood areas and distribute your selves or you can donate the money to EIDI foundation or to Imran Khan Flood Schemes rest are justing thinking of making it a Business venture.
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dotconnect wrote:
"159, Squaids
"I could also suggest how "interesting" it is how you try and characterise anyone who won't contribute as "mean" and readers of the "daily mail". "
Talk about stretching an obvious indulgence on my part. OK let me make it clear for you Squaids: I don't believe any/everyone not donating is necessarily mean or reads the Daily Mail. There, I hope that puts your mind at rest."
It's what you wrote. If it's not what you meant, be more careful in future.
""...and then sit back smugly, oddly pleased with my latest inference in the same way a child is pleased at the sight of a full potty."
Oh you had to drag the conversation down didn't you? What a shame. ""
Not at all. Just increasingly irritated at repeated snide suggestions on your part. Perhaps you have some beam casting to do.
"I will certainly agree with Ebahgum and dedicatedprofessional. The Pakistani government need to reassess their priorities, though they have one hell of a job turning that country around. Foreign governments withholding aid is one possibility but as I said earlier, withholding emergency aid at a time like this is another matter entirely. Tough love is fine as far as it goes, but when it starts to foster the conditions in which extremism thrives (poverty, desperation and a sense of isolation from the world - all likely outcomes from this flood and insufficient help), it becomes utterly counterproductive. Yes denying emergency aid could force the Pakistani government to act differently. But it could also send Pakistan in the opposite direction. To his credit I think David Cameron realises that."
Pakistan has had 70 years to put its own house in order. Despite billions and billions in aid, religious fundamentalism has grown. Look what India has managed to do in the same time, despite having many (if not all) of the same challenges.
Part of the problem appears to be an unmanageable population explosion which propagates grinding poverty. Then there's tribalism to consider. Not to mention endemic corruption among the ruling parties. Then education and infrastructure failings. All that before you get to outside interference.
Using the excuse that witholding aid will cause extremism to thrive seems almost to constitute blackmail. Donate or else. That said, Dedicated professional has made the only post in this thread that made me reconsider donating.
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According the the French papaers like le Canard Enchainee, Zardari invests the majority of his capital in France because maybe he plans to retire here for good, as matter of fact he got a Chateau worth caporal hundreds Million USD and which is maintained by an army of French staff.
As matter of fact he spends time here with his family while in route in his private jet to get togethers in Europe and during this crisis in Pakistan.
Guess that he got it all under control down there, as for me of course I have donate but to Muslim Charities not linked to the Islamabad government, most of them have bank accounts in Saudi Arabia as there are the ones giving the most in this catastrophe, so far as reported in Arab News they have given more than USD 300 million.
Sayonara
Xa
St. Etienne
Paris
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@Squaids
// "Just increasingly irritated at repeated snide suggestions on your part."
This from the poster who responded to someone's thoughtful post with a snide "Is it because I's Muslim" remark. Time to move on from this I think.
// "Using the excuse that witholding aid will cause extremism to thrive seems almost to constitute blackmail."
Well it's widely recognized that religious extremism tends to thrive in the conditions I mentioned. If that's a fair assumption Squaids, then it remains a fair assumption irrespective of how anyone might then potentially be able to leverage it to their own ends.
Put another way, a fact is a fact. You can't just wish it away because it appears to give "them" a potential advantage. You end up making all sorts of poor choices following that line of reasoning.
Blackmail would imply a premeditated exploitation of this fact/assumption. To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that this is happening (which is probably why you wrote the rather more equivocal "seeming almost to constitute blackmail" though in truth I fail to see how there is anything particularly useful in that statement).
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Squaids
"Part of the problem appears to be an unmanageable population explosion which propagates grinding poverty. Then there's tribalism to consider. Not to mention endemic corruption among the ruling parties. Then education and infrastructure failings. All that before you get to outside interference. "
I agree with all this.
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I have found a 2007 paper showing that a vasectomy in India costs only $18 to carry out.
A news article from Nov. 2009 indicates the Indian government is paying men the equivalent of £19 to have a vasectomy.
None of us likes out private parts to be messed with medically, but it is under anaesthetic, and it is preferable to cholera.
An Indian organisation, NSV Surgeons India, is promoting the operation.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
BBC - How about a program on this, and how it can be applied in Pakistan? I had no idea it was so cheap, and it compares well with £150 to cure a cleft-lip.
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dotconnect wrote:
"@Squaids
"Just increasingly irritated at repeated snide suggestions on your part."
This from the poster who responded to someone's thoughtful post with a snide "Is it because I's Muslim" remark. Time to move on from this I think."
Ah. So you consider Alemcodon's post "thoughtful". Let's review:
"simple fact is racism is growing ripe in this country, more than ever. to all the poeople that dont want to donate, your not fooling anyobdy but urselves."
Ergo, anyone who does not want to donate is a racist. Thoughtful indeed. No victim complex there, eh?
Isn't it interesting that you only present this, blah blah blah.
What a curious set of priorities, blah blah blah.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
""Using the excuse that witholding aid will cause extremism to thrive seems almost to constitute blackmail."
Well it's widely recognized that religious extremism tends to thrive in the conditions I mentioned. If that's a fair assumption Squaids, then it remains a fair assumption irrespective of how anyone might then potentially be able to leverage it to their own ends. "
If the conditions you mention are the recent floods, what's your excuse for religious extremism thriving in the decades prior to it. Favourable zoning laws for Madrassas?
"Blackmail would imply a premeditated exploitation of this fact/assumption. To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that this is happening (which is probably why you wrote the rather more equivocal "seeming almost to constitute blackmail" though in truth I fail to see how there is anything particularly useful in that statement)."
You fail to see anything useful in that statement. What a shocker.
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This is a height of brutality happened in Sialkot -Pakistan where two teenage kids were beaten to death by rods, sticks, hands, chains and then their blooded dead bodies were hung on the road. And the public viewed the whole sad event for until two hours. There are a few more videos available on internet about these kids. It is our moral duty that we all should expose it to the world, so some one some where on this earth can help their families to get heard and sheer of justice. At least, I have no words in my vocabulary what to call those who have performed this beyond shameful actions. I feel such a shame as these criminals are a rotten part of nation. I am trying to spread this message so the authorities are pressured to do the justice at their earliest. We can’t recover the loss of innocent lives murdered so cruelly, as no one had a right to punish them in this manner. However, this is a best I can do to contribute a bit from my part to spread this news in order to get justice, to help the grieved family
There is yet no apparent strong reason for these killing, but then under no circumstances this incident is neither justified, nor any one is permitted to punish anyone in this manner. Especially in a scenario where there is no strong fact, no evidence and hearing is done by any party in official and unofficial manner on any concern.
With due repect, It’s fully agreed that the clips are heart breaking but to be honest this case should be dealt like the other brutal events happened in past such as the biggest politicians assassination, plane crash, flood issue and bomb blast series, in past and present nothing get dealt till date. So how can we trust an efficient and effective approach will be taken with regards to justice in this case?
I have been stopped by some people not to post this email on my FB page; according to them I am aggravating the fire but the big dilemma is, didn’t you all see that crowd witnessed this fierce event felt absolutely ruthless. No one came in front to stop this stop the wrong, no police no interference was made to prevent the life’s. It took them only some time to kill one brother and almost two hours to kill the oldest brother, so where were the authorities, why didn’t the public hearts melt. The natives of that city should watch this video on all streets every hour, so they should die with shame and guilt, as they have no ethical values, and there hearts are as a solid mountain rock.
So yes, I want this to be a burning issue as I firmly believe it’s important to forward this email and feel how this family is bearing pain every breath of their life. We must watch it and sympathize until the family get justice and just because of this reason I am not going to stop this message. And the pictures of how the killers are punished should be displayed every where in the country so any one will shiver even thinking of carry out this brutal act ever.
And there should be a memorial in respect of those kids, who faced such a sad demise.
It is imperative that every one involved in this killing should be punished as soon as possible. However the killers killing the boys including the child in yellow shirt betting the dead body in the video are obvious. So, it’s surprising that what is preventing the authorities to take step and grant justice to the family.
Although, there is an existance of some prudent law procedures but the vital problem is the culture where predominantly it’s been controlled by the influential individuals. Therefore, there should be a strong law and judicial system to be evloved and inplemented, which should be respected and adhered by the people of Pakistan. It should lay down in such a way where it cannot be used like a string of puppet play by the powerful people. The policies and procedures should be simple to understand and their awareness should be created in all the sector of the nation so they know how to use them and hence have a fear of the punishment, such as in a scenerio if some try to play with the law and take the compliance as a non serious issue would not be spared from the consequences.
Bina Islam ul Haq – London -UK
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@Squaids
For goodness sake please move on. You're now sounding incredibly petty.
Re. my point about blackmail, I made a genuine effort to dispute your claim reasonably, and I feel I have. You obviously disagree. Well that's fine. But instead of making a snide remark in response, how about you point out what you disagree with.
Here - I'll post it again for you...
"Blackmail would imply a premeditated exploitation of this fact/assumption. To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence that this is happening (which is probably why you wrote the rather more equivocal "seeming almost to constitute blackmail" though in truth I fail to see how there is anything particularly useful in that statement)."
Blackmail is of course wrong. The question however is, what does it matter if a course of action "seems almost to constitute blackmail"? When I say I don't see anything useful in that fact, you don't need to take it personally. I'm genuinely unclear as to what bearing your statement, with all its equivocation, has on the question of aid.
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@168 Bina Islam ul Haq
I'll make two assumptions, and apologise in advance if either is wrong.
1. From your name, that you are of Pakistani origin.
2. From your generally good but not perfect use of English, that you are not a British born person of Pakistani origin.
You describe an act of barbarsim in graphic detail and are clearly, and rightly, moved by these events.
If you feel as strongly as you do I have to ask why are you not in Pakistan seeking to bring about an end to the injustices you so clearly abhor.
You are obviously educated and articulate - just the characteristics required to help exhert influence for change in Pakistan society - yet you sign yourself off from London-UK.
I said in an earlier post "Physician Heal Thyself".
The only source of healing for the cancers at the heart of Pakistan society are Pakistanis themselves - and they will not achieve it residing in foreign countries.
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