Wisconsin: How we got here

wrong, Mr. Rogers:

What has benefitted the American middle class has been worker productivity, spurned by the inventiveness and creativity of American scientists and engineers. As the US produces fewer engineers and scientists, its productivity declines.

American productivity has been pretty much stagnant since 2006. This is the dirty little secret that everyone avoids, b/c it's the toughest problem facing the US today and the biggest threat to the US's future. Unions always have hindered productivity. Hence, union contracts that require a certain job category and pay level, even though the job no longer exists.

16 votes

#1.3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:33 PM EST

manworkinonit

@ jh ~~bring it on & give it your best shot. with the teabaggers leading the fragmented GOP you guys will more than likely self destruct all on your own. maybe you should just stick to your Beck rallys and Palin book signings, do your church thing and let the Dems run the country. we don't want the tea baggers over taxing their mental capabilities. we're Dems hence we care......even about the hateful lil baggers.

15 votes

#1.4 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:42 PM EST

Public employees should never have been allowed to unionize

You sound like the English post 1776, I guess Authoritarian rule trumps democracy . what is happening is exactly the purpose of public unions, to prevent repressive employers from taking advantage of their employees

14 votes

#1.5 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:46 PM EST

Picolo

That's the dumbest thing I have read. PUBLIC labor unions work for the public tax payers.(ie the private sector workers.) So you are saying the private sector workers are repressive employers??? We don't even get a say in the PUBLIC sector labor union contracts and THAT is the problem. This bill tries to level the playing field by FORCING public to vote on the labor contracts. What's wrong with that?

6 votes

#1.6 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:03 PM EST

JH-479998

manworkinonit

You lefties only care about yourselves. Your hatred shows. Wisconsin voted republican for a very good reason and now the Governor is doing exactly what he said he would do. The shameless democrats are running and hiding for a reason. You're going to be very surprised next election because this country is fed up with government union workers who cry when they have to perform like the rest of us. 2012 can't come soon enough for this country. Just by mentioning Beck and Palin shows your ignorance of the movement going on in America. They don't speak for me or for the majority of middle America. The lefties just use their names to score points with the uninformed voters on the left.

12 votes

#1.7 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:08 PM EST

Reliant

The Wisconson Govenors primary objective, and the affected Public Workers Union biggest issue.

The Budget Repair Bill does not allow employers to collect union dues in paychecks.

This is unambigous Union Busting...

10 votes

#1.8 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:09 PM EST

rapture2010

That's right. Wisconsin voted for Walker and the GOP/TP Representatives & Senators on the platform they are now attempting to execute. Unfortunately, these newly elected politicians didn't bother to think beyond the initial stage. The repurcussions down the road for many Wisconsin voters will surprise if not shock them. Only then will they ask themselves: What the hell did we do in 2010?

8 votes

#1.9 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:19 PM EST

Jeff, I think you meant "spurred by" rather than "spurned by."

However, to the point, science and engineering is based on looking at data and using techniques to counter biases toward one answer over another rather than going by gut feeling and "belief."

You are hypothesizing that the reduction in productivity is due to a reduction in scientists and engineers in this country. I am not sure what you are attributing the decline in scientists and engineers to, but I doubt it has much to do with unions. You would need to propose a more detailed mechanism of the connection between unions and the drop in the number of scientists and engineers before this would be a testable hypothesis.

Here is another hypothesis: the drop in scientists and engineers is because our society grossly over rewards those in finance and business and under rewards those who go into science and engineering. It takes way more work over a sustained period of time to become a scientist or engineer, so the combination of effort put in up front to be able to do the job and the relative disparity in end outcomes makes business and finance more attractive.

Those in business and finance are taught to focus on efficiency and short-term payback. The process of science and engineering is neither efficient nor short-term in its payback. So when you are trying to optimize "investor value" the first thing to go is real research and development. It is a lot cheaper and more certain to figure out how to reformulate a drug coming out of monopolistic protection from free markets (patent) so a new patent can be filed than to try to come up with a new drug for another disease.

The focus on short-term payback also is not conducive to funding basic research and development, which has been the real driver of the inventions you refer to. The basic research that led to semi-conductors (and many more basic technologies) came from government funding of the space program. The Internet came from the government funded defense funds. The World Wide Web came from government funding of universities and research labs that were fed up with the proprietary vendor fragmentation in computer communication that seemed to be all the free-market was capable of producing.

The private companies then quickly run in to take the government research and turn it into consumer products. I don't begrudge them this. That is what Adam Smith pointed out capitalists are best at. What I do object to is when they become so short sighted that they fail to recognize where their next meal is going to come from. They become greedy and don't want to pay for the infrastructure that provides them with their next meal. After all, that is not a short-term investment.

That is why Adam Smith (the father of capitalism) said that (1) education should not be left to the whims of the free market, (2) those who are allowed to accumulate more of the nations wealth owe proportionately more of their gains to the support of the system that allowed them to accumulate that wealth, and (3) capitalists need to be regulated lest they slip from self-interest into greed.

14 votes

#1.10 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:20 PM EST

Have another....Bud

G. Bud

From my perspective Unions trump democracy because I've never had a say in how much of MY pay goes to support the excesses of these all or none public unions. I'm an Independent if you want to label me and tired of the excesses of both sides of the aisle. I pay 40% of my health care insurance costs and have to listen to the unions bellyache because they want me, the taxpayer, to pay another 6% of their measely 12.5% too? Now that's repressive....

6 votes

#1.11 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:21 PM EST

Pat-1427859

Wow! These workers typically make between 15 to 25% less than comparable private sector workers. Through collective bargaining over the years, these employees chose less wages and deferred that money into a secure future (pension) and you think they looted the taxpayer? If anything they are exploited by the taxpayer. People with your mind set want to bring the average worker down but you have no problem supporting corporations who also exploit workers while the CEO's are making millions while profitting off of everyone. If you are rich and want to protect your wealth, I understand your motivation, if not I am not sure what you are doing. I bet you are the type to blame teachers for students lack of learning, you also expect a response if you are unfortunate enough to have to dial 9-1-1. You probably complain if there are pot holes on your street and blame the city for doing nothing. You probably bellyache about paying taxes too. I will keep you and the other corporatists in my prayers.

15 votes

#1.12 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:21 PM EST

Chedder Revolutionary

All of you are missing the point of the Chedder Revolution going on here in Wisconsin. The Unions already agreed to radical pay cuts and benifit contributions over the last year of negotiations while working without a contract. They have stated that they are willing to negotiate 2-4 year temporary cuts to balance the budget hole.

What Walker is railroading through is something else entirely. He is trying to end collective bargaining for all public employees unions (except police and fire). This includes teachers, social workers, bus drivers, garbage collection, streets and construction, nurses, Dept. of Natural Resources, Game Wardens, fisheries, park rangers, all university employees, all local government employees, all city/count/state court employees, all public defenders, and prosecutors, etc..... every government employee (local, county, state) will no longer be unionized. Their benefits (medical, and retirement) will be determined by whichever jackass mayor/county exec./governor decides it should be for their budget. Their pay will be determined by the budget and raises will be determined by referendum.

There are 8 facts you need to know about the Chedder Revolution:

1. The Unions have already agreed in pre-Walker negotiations to many of the pay cuts and benifit cuts before Walker took office.

2. Scott Walker is using the budget crisis to end public employees unions in Wisconsin. Scott Walker and the Tea Party Republicans have a majority in the State Gov. and thought they could pass this in a week.

3. Public Employees Unions were first organized in Wisconsin so the national significance is everything.

4. If Walker is able to kill teacher unions and public employee unions in Wisconsin the Republicans can kill them anywhere.

5. Non-government employees unions in the private sector are next.

6. This is about collective bargaining as a union and not about the budget.

7. 2 moderate Republican Senators have also left the Capitol over the Quorum issue so as to slow or stop the vote. They know and acknowledge that unions are important to Wisconsin.

8. Union Members are the middle class in America, none of them are rich and none of them are in poverty.

Solidarity!

"The first senate democrat that folds and comes back across the state line will be the most hated person in Wisconsin." a shop steward at my union.

15 votes

#1.13 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:30 PM EST

American-3074521

I fully support reducing government spending both state and federal. I don't support reducing it in a destructive way.

It seems we quickly forget we did not get into this mess overnight. How many elected officials over the last five to ten years had a part in putting us where we are today? It is a shame we are so quick to point fingers at unions. Yes, unions have their down side and their up side. So to the police forces we trust to protect us.

I challenge all who read this to look back at history and learn why unions were created in the first place. Corruption is everywhere in our society. The Unionsare no different. Over the years union leaders have used their positions for personnel gain. Who suffered, all of us. However, unions do not deserve all the blame. Many agencies allowed employee abuse creating an atmosphere of mistrust. Even today many employers will abuse employees simply cause they can.

Those leaders in Wisconsin are as much to blame as any union. Hell the Wisconsin people put them there. Do any of you reading this believe the only way to correct this budget mess is to remove bargaining rights? If so I worry about who will protect your loved one when their employer decides they no longer car for them.

11 votes

#1.14 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:42 PM EST

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41672854/ns/politics-more_politics/

"24 states have laws giving all public-sector workers the right to bargain collectively.

9 states either do not have such laws or have laws that expressly forbid contracts between a public employer and a labor union."

"many states do not permit public employees to strike."

"36.2 percent of public-sector workers were union members, compared to 6.9 percent of private-sector workers."

"In 2010, median earnings of government workers who were union members were 25 percent higher than earnings of private workers."

It is absolutely amazing that people can hijack the term "revolution" and adopt a chant of "power to the people" when it is the overwhelming majority of people who are not union members, and who make less money, that are sick and tired of providing them with their inflated salaries and ridiculous pensions.

Whining about having to EARN your keep instead of collecting it from others is not a revolution it is GREED.

Power to the people indeed.... by getting rid of the greedy, thuggish, remnants of yesteryear and the politicians who cower to them.

7 votes

#1.15 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:18 AM EST

no joe, no bo, nj

G.Bud, and the rest of the liberals on this site-

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/19/the_ghost_of_fdr_is_smiling_on_wisconsins_governor_108962.html

Even FDR was against public employee unions.

They are an oxymoron. Their pay is given to them by taxpayers- who have no seat at the bargaining table. Their input comes by voting- and the voters in Wisconsin elected a man who said he would do exactly what he is doing.

Obama is going to lose this battle- or did you not know that he had dispatched the DNC, along with his private political arm, OfA, to stir this pot, and spread it to Indiana, Ohio, Missouri, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey?

I hope he does get to New Jersey- my governor will be waiting, with a lawsuit that bankrupts both Obama, personally, and the DNC.

Heck, he might even have to get the first real job of his life.

6 votes

#1.16 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:18 AM EST

First of all, Not everyone on the left is liberal, And

Their pay is given to them by taxpayers- who have no seat at the bargaining table. Their input comes by voting- and the voters in Wisconsin elected a man who said he would do exactly what he is doing

Show me where in his campaign did he mention Breaking the public unions right to collective bargaining and making it all but impossible for private sector unions to group. This corporate puppet would never have been elected if he had disclosed that during his campaign. Your words are hollow.

3 votes

#1.17 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:09 AM EST

AZChzhd

Cheddar...the stewards in the Postal Mailhandlers Union I belong to are the worst of them all. They walk the slowest, work the slowest, care the least about getting the mail out. Absolutely no sense of urgency. They abuse the union mantra of "no production quotas" and do the least possible, and that's close to nothing by union standards.

I have a love/hate relationship with my union. I am grateful for some of the benefits. But on the other hand, I understand why companies have moved overseas because the unions protect the weak. The Postal Service could probably do away with 1/3 of its workforce and probably not miss a beat.

5 votes

#1.18 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:46 AM EST

bobo1

One of my dad's favorite sayings.... 'donut eaters for life'. he's been saying that for 20 years.

7 votes

#2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:40 PM EST

Reason and Logic

Who do you call if you don't want to get screwed on a contract? A lawyer. Seeing as we have a right to council, and lawyers represent us for contracts. How can someone take away that right? We have class action lawsuits right. So in effect, government workers have a right to collective council when dealing with contracts, if they choose.

In effect Unions are a right not a privilege.

10 votes

#2.1 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:13 AM EST

Sprtman

Thats a helluva strecth - Liberal logic - rediculous.

4 votes

#2.2 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:30 PM EST

Wartface

Reason of logic... Logic tells me that in everyday life, when dealing with normal common sense people you are on the right track!

However... Woodrow Wilson in about 1916 did this: Wilson maneuvered through Congress three major pieces of legislation. The first was a lower tariff, the Underwood Act; attached to the measure was a graduated Federal income tax. The passage of the Federal Reserve Act provided the Nation with the more elastic money supply it badly needed. In 1914 antitrust legislation established a Federal Trade Commission to prohibit unfair business practices.

He promised that the tax would only be for the riches 1% of the population and would start at just 1% of income and never exceed 7% of income. Well... He lied! He also signed into law the Federal Reserve. I'm now paying 35% in Federal income tax, 10%in state income tax, 15% in Social Security tax, up to, what is it now the first $100,000 of my gross? Then of course I have property tax, then sales tax, then 15 cent a gallon gasoline tax, then of course the unseen tax that I charge my customers, that that I add on to my product price to cover my high tax rate. They increase my taxes... I increase my price that I sell my product for. They all lie....

Then in 1935 we got the "New Deal" from Franklin Roosevelt. That was a real dussy! He gave us Social Security! He promised that only real old people that were about to die, that had no one to take care of them would get that benefit. Well... As it turns out now Medicare and Medicaid are attached to the SS bill and like 30% of everyone breathing in America gets some money from that bill. The very first person that ever got a check from SS... Made 2 payments into the system that came to $22.45 and retired a week later at 67 years old. She lived to be 100 years old and collected $22,500. That's Big Government for ya!

Then We got Lyndon Baines Johnson... He gave us Medicare and Medicaid... You know, "The Great Society". That included many, many other Social programs. They were like Robinhood... Steal from the rich and give to the poor! just like Barak Obama told Joe the Plummer! We got to spread it around!

All of those MAJOR entitlement programs are, without doubt, PONZI schemes! The Baby Boomers kids didn't have nearly as many kids as they did. That tells an actuarial accountant that the PONZI scheme is going to collapse! They have known that for years. That's why they let all of these illegals work here... Pay into the system so it pays the old folks, know that the illegals will not and cannot draw on what they paid in.... They lied to you!

Now you have BHO... And his Obamacare. The first 3 "Big Government" entitlement programs eat up 42% of every dollar that the government takes in and this new one, Obamacare, is more than all of the other 3 put together!

Some people think that they are trying to collapse the system... Francis Fox Pivan and Mr Cloward wrote a book about how to do that and Big Goverment is following those guideline... To a T!

So... If you think you are dealing with people that think the way that you do... You are wrong! They have a much different agenda than you do. They hate Capitalism! They hate guys like Bill Gates that made it big. They want to get what he has but... They want someone to give it to them!

8 votes

#2.3 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:13 AM EST

We are here.

You cry like a baby about being taxed and you have more money then most people get in a lifetime. If you are crying about being taxed on your first one hundred thousand dollars then that tells me you are making more than on hundred thousand dollars and you should be taxed first. Quit trying to kill the middle class, add more taxes to take our governments out of the defecite and quit crying about it. How about adopting a hard working man and his family so he can survive.

8 votes

#2.4 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:18 AM EST

DUDE-875416

Wartface

Very well explained and accurate may I add.

3 votes

#2.5 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:19 AM EST

MM-584706

Wartface....You left out the addition of Prescription Drug Coverage by George Bush, completely unfunded and probably the "Straw that broke the Eagle's back " ! It was the largest unfunded ( non war ) program ever created in history !

3 votes

#2.6 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:09 PM EST

Too Funny-572164

Yeah... Congress has been eating donuts for a lot longer than that...

And WE paid for the donuts.............

#2.7 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:02 PM EST

TryCommonSense-2821193

This whole scenario is appalling. There was NO budget deficit problem in Wisconsin until the Republican Governor and Legislature gave huge tax cuts to their wealthy Masters. That's a fact. Now the Republicans continue to try to insist on paying for their tax breaks for the wealthy by attempting to eliminate the Unions and by slashing programs to feed, shelter, and provide care to the poor and disabled. I applaud the Democrats use of any tactic necessary to prevent these from happening. Nothing they do can be worse than the Republicans' attempts to let old people die by eliminating Medicare and Social Security. Let Grandma and Grandpa die in poverty to protect Corporate profits and billionaires from paying their fair share of taxes? Good job guys!

7 votes

#2.8 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:26 PM EST

Gary Root

You tax me too much, and I will quit earning it. I do not work for the joy of working, I work for the benefits, for the wages. If you take most of my money, then I might just decide to work 5 or 6 hours per week rather than 50 or 60. My leisure time has value just like my income has value. If our productive elite quit then all of the incompetents out there that need their services in order to perform will end up without any income at all. Time to realize the the economy is not a zero sum game, GDP is not a fixed pie that you can just divide up to make it equitable. The productivity of the top 10% makes possible the productivity of the rest. But, I will flip hamburgers for a living if you really want me to, rather than work as an engineer. You will not see me working as an engineer for fifty or sixty hours per week to take home the same amount as a construction worker that is working from my drawings. I will go fishing instead.

2 votes

#2.9 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:18 PM EST

grumpy2u

I am a construction worker and what makes you think that your work is any more skill-full then mine. I had to go to four years of schooling and training to do what I do just like you did. I'd like to see you get out there day after day and do what we do. You think it and we make it happen on time and under budget. and by the way we usually fix your mistakes using our skill and not just with a pencil and a latte

1 vote

#2.10 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:08 PM EST

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110201/APC0101/102010421/Wisconsin-Governor-Scott-Walker-signs-tax-cut-bill-into-law

I work and you tax me. You tax me some more, I grumble a bit, but I go back working. You tax me a bit less, I say 'thank you', and I go back working some more.

So if you don't feel like working because taxes are going up 3% (I've had worse under the Republican 'saint'), then quit the workforce so someone else can take your job (trust me, there are plenty who will). Capitalism is a double-edged sword, because competition in the market means competition in the workforce, and there is always someone willing to do your job for less.

1 vote

#2.11 - Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:24 AM EST

GendoIkari

There is definitely an ever growing discrepancy between the real value of blue collar work versus the real value of white collar work.

Many of the white collar workers in this country have more than demonstrated before, during, and since the financial collapse of 2007-2008 that they aren't worth anywhere near the money that they've been getting paid. Many of them lied, cheated, and stole to get that college degree, and because they cheated their way through academia, they are now completely incompetent at their profession. I know many people first hand that should have never been handed a degree, given how they got away with cheating on tests and plagiarizing the hell out of their papers.

The system is completely broken, and because of that this nation is completely broken. You put incompetent clowns in charge, and a system constantly plagued by corruption and incompetency is exactly what you'll have.

It's sadistically amusing that now this stuff is happening in Idaho's state legislature concerning Idaho's state employees like the Idaho Teacher's Association (union). Unfortunately, the fact is that Idaho's primary education system is a complete joke to begin with. Many of Idaho State University's professors think that us Idahoans should group together and sue the hell out of the Idaho State Board of Education for the extremely poor quality K-12 education that we all received. I personally think both the IDEA and the Idaho State Board of Education share equally in the blame for Idaho's poor quality of K-12 public education.

#2.12 - Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:33 AM EST

libbyj

The pension system is healthy because the state legislature and governors haven't raided it like in other states.

7 votes

#3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:47 PM EST

danders3

Actually, it was raided during the Thomnpson administration. A court ruling forced the state to put it back.

And... It's not true that employees don't pay into the pension fund, as stated in the article. Deductions have been taken off paychecks since the first of the year. What employees were being told over the years is there was no need to pay into the ystem, because of strong returns on investments by the controlling board.

6 votes

#3.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:06 PM EST

george chambers

when i was hired in 1964 by the usps, i paid 7.5 % into my retirement until the day i retired,and 25% into my health insurance and still do today, $275.00 every mo.

5 votes

#3.2 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:44 PM EST

buffalo bob-937857

as did i in the VA system. and the gripe about h the tax cuts he offered. these were for new businesses coming into the state with new jobs. what do they see wrong with that. and if no new business then no lost revenue.

1 vote

#3.3 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:47 AM EST

Really?-3074237

At the end of the Doyle administration (Dec. 2010) the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau projected a $121 million SURPLUS by the the end of the current fiscal (June 30 2011). Within 45 days of taking office Walker pushed through three bills that cut $117 million from that surplus AND turned away nearly a billion dollars in federal funds ($810 million for rail infrastructure; $23 million for internet infrastructre; $673,000 in aid to low income families to help them find approrpiate health care), and the LFB estimates the proposed budget "repair" bill will take another $45 million in public transportation funds. So, is the state Broke?. Yes, Walker Broke it in 45 days. Any jobs yet?

26 votes

#4 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:48 PM EST

DB Akron

Let me correct the poor (I'm being generous by calling it "Poor") reporting in the article. Those three tax cuts do not take place until the next budget. I.e. Those tax cut add 117 Million in deficit to the next 2 year budget.

6 votes

#4.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:28 PM EST

And the projected deficits Walker is predicting don't take place until then either.

7 votes

#4.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:34 PM EST

bayllie

Really?-3074237,

excellent post. this is just another example of first giving it to the rich (tax cuts on top of tax cuts) and when there is so money in the budget ask the average Joe to do his part and pay up.

12 votes

#4.3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:52 PM EST

Really?-3074237

For the record: From the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureal report 1/31/2011: "Our analysis indicates that for the three-year period, aggregate, general fund tax collections will be $202.8 million lower than those reflected in the November/December reports. More than half of the lower estimate ($117.2 million) is due to the impact of Special Session Senate Bill 2. (health savings accounts), Assembly Bill 3 (tax deductions/credits for relocated businesses), and Assembly Bill 7 (tax exclusion for new employees)."

To Steven Teleen: Then why does Wisconsin need am immediate Budget "Repair" Bill?, one by the way that is tearing this state apart.

12 votes

#4.4 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:59 PM EST

Raspo

Are they any better than the Air Traffic Controls in the 80's? Fire them see how that works.

2 votes

#4.5 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:16 PM EST

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

If you are trying to solve a budget problem, why is the focus of this bill eliminating collective bargaining and an absolute refusal to negotiate with the employees. It is part of an attempt to turn everything into a private sector enterprise.

I suggest you go back and re-read your Adam Smith (Wealth of Nations). He was quite clear that (1) education is too important to society to be subjected to the whims of the free market system, (2) those who are allowed to accumulate more of the nation's wealth owe proportionately more than others to the support of that nation, and (3) the biggest threat to capitalism are capitalists, because their aversion to competition will cause them to convert a capitalist system to a monopolistic system. The only antidote is regulation.

I might add that we have seen what capitalism devolves into when left unregulated. The wealth is used to buy the government and when large industry controls government that economic system is called fascism. Contrary to popular belief, fascism does not require a single dictator. It just requires the government to focus on helping the large businesses rather than the individual citizens.

33 votes

#4.6 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:37 PM EST

EEJAY

Finally, someone with a CLUE! Great post!

5 votes

#4.7 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:17 PM EST

Sprtman

He was wrong.

#4.8 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:33 PM EST

Tom in NH-294381

Hey REALLY, that is EXACTLY what happend under the last 3 GOP presidents. They made huge tax cuts, then they overspent, cut revenues in other ways....... all with the goal of "starve the beast" so they could present privatizing SS/ Medicare as the ONLY solution! $11T in debt was run up under jUST the last 3 GOP presidents. Republicans are DELIBERATELY causing budget crises so they can do away with things to which they are ideologically opposed. For reagan/bush/bush it was the entitlements; for Wisconsin, it's the unions and medicaid! What the hell do we DO with the dangerous people who'd enmdanger the country and state just to achieve their purely political goal?????

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10054/1037783-109.stm <=== PROGRESSIVE

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/06/tax-cuts-republicans-starve-the-beast-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html <==== CONSERVATIVE!

I say exe cution at dawn for treason!!

5 votes

#4.9 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:52 PM EST

Wartface

Tom in NH... You keep accusing people of moving taxes around percentage wise.... Do some research! Our Federal Tax rate has fluctuated from 1% up as high as 91%...and the treasury has never taken in more than 18 to 22% of GDP. Why you ask? It easy... When you take to much you demotivate the the 1 or 2% of the people that are willing to risk their entire net worth and their home to start a business and employ people. Those type of people know that 80% of all new startups go belly up in the first 2 years. and those that have already made it through startup are just out right offended when "Big Government" comes in and takes All of their profits!

Look online and you will find that 95% of Companies in America makes less than 5% net profit. And that's after they have paid their 28% in corporate taxes and their employees taxes and their State Taxes and their OSHA taxes and all of their employees Social Security Taxes and their retirement benefits and their medical insurance.

I'm in the Sofa manufacturing business... I buy lumber from Weyerhaueser, I buy springs from a different supplier, foam from another one, then I need pretty fabric, I have a glue source, then I need staples and packaging and sewing thread and sewing machines, oh my then we have buy heavy duty saws and computerized routers and then the energy bills...oh my! Then 1000's of gallons of gasoline to truck the product to our customers.

All of these suppliers... Factor in their tax burden on every shipment they make to us... As I do to my customers as does my customer, that sells ir to you...

There is no free lunch my friend... Everyone pays about the same!

However... If I quit manufacturing in America, I could sell my product for much less and probably do more business! We Americans sure like those low, low, low prices at Wal-Mart!

2 votes

#4.10 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:02 AM EST

Tom in NH-294381

Warface:

PLease tell me what his has to do with the last 3 Republican presidents running up $11T--- DELIBERATELY--- for the sole purpose of eliminating/privatizing the SS/ Medicare etc??? The gave out huge tax cuts, increased spending and thus endangered national security and the financial future of the United States!! Just to accomplish an idealogical political goal!!!!

Think about that!

3 votes

#4.11 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:10 AM EST

buckeye-3079191

Take nike for example high prices and off shore manufacturing this is going on with a lot of companies and with their increased profits lets give them a tax break this is corporate welfare and is what the GRAND OLD PARTY IS ALL ABOUT.

4 votes

#4.12 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:15 AM EST

David M-3074255

John-
Thank YOU for an objective analysis. Just a few complaints.

You start by stating, "Wisconsin has an immediate budget shortfall of $137 million..." First impressions. But much later in your analysis you state, "Walker also pushed through three tax cut bills negatively impacting projected tax revenues by $117 million..."

The Wisconsin equivalent of OMB objectively found the state had a surplus beginning this year. Suddenly, public employees (mostly teachers who are LOCAL School Board employees, NOT state employees) are told they (and not his hand-picked friendly unions) must fund the governor's tax gift to corporations.

Then at the very end you lay out the three points which are the center of citizen protest. NOTHING to do with budget balancing, three budget-neutral edicts to unilaterally decimate public employee rights. This should be your lead.

13 votes

#5 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:51 PM EST

Embarrassed Conservative

Why do so many assume that state workers are over compensated? I know first hand that in some state of Wisconsin job sectors, employees take drastic pay cuts when they come from the private sector. This is common knowledge. Many do it for the benefits, which almost makes up for the higher private sector pay, but they accept it because they want security, stability etc. I'm just amazed that so many people will believe such a blatant myth just because some politician repeats it.

24 votes

#6 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:55 PM EST

Average American-2299641

The USA is ranked number 32 of countries in the world. We have the worse government schools while contributing more per student than any other country in the world and I want to give them more money and benefits?

2 votes

#6.1 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:02 AM EST

MM-584706

Embarrassed Conservative...If they are taking a cut to switch to a government job it is to tie down a guaranteed lifetime income with cost of living increases, medical coverage, short work hours, lots of holidays and no threat of job loss forever ! Pretty good trade off, those things are not readily available in the private sector. People like to call public employees "public servants", but it is the only case where the servants do far better than the masters !

Public employees are good people who do important jobs, but the unions have worked very successfully to get them far mar compensation, benefits and job security than the work calls for, and far more than the taxpayer can afford to continue paying. The money has run out and as a recent NY Gov Candidate liked to say, "The Rent is Too Damned High". By the "rent" I mean the total cost of public employees.

#6.2 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:15 PM EST

Drake Cennedig

Average American-2299641

You realize, don't you, that when America is ranked 32nd, the ranks fail to compensate for the fact that we test all of our high school students? European and East Asian nations tend to have competitive systems that segregate out the non-academically successful and place them in separate schools, in order to artificially inflate grades and streamline cost effectiveness. A better measure would be either to compare our top twenty percent with their entire academic school system. And no, we don't have the worst government schools. Moderately developed nations like South Africa or Costa Rica are below us in rankings, even without accounting for the skewed scale.

1 vote

#6.3 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:47 PM EST

DrillinginUSWontMakeOilCheaper

Embarrassed Conservative

Remember a time when our party was not actively hostile to unions, and when we touted the high standards of living for the middle class as our greatest accomplishment? Those where the golden days. Of course, Reagan had to screw it up, just like he screwed up his own state. When you vote for a man who says 'government doesn't work', it's no surprise that he fulfills his prophecy and makes sure the government doesn't work. How that guy got reelected after he threw conservatism under the bus is beyond me.

#6.4 - Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:29 AM EST

AC55

I will give the Wisconsin Democrats a place to stay until the Republicans get their act together. I wonder if the governor thinks this is helping his political career. I heard a republican on Jon Stewart bragging that the repulicans took over alot of positions. I feel the GOP would be better people, citizens and politicians if they had watched PBS growing up and learned how to be nice, share with others and know that we have the word YES in our vocabulary. We also have the responsibility to look out for others (which does not mean) those in your social group..... EVERYBODY.

14 votes

#7 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:56 PM EST

Average American-2299641

a couple months ago, the people of Wisconsin kicked the Democrats out on ther butts. Walker and the Republicans were voted in to correct the problems the Democrats created.

By the way, a couple months age, the people of the USA kicked the Democrats out of Congress. You are a minority with no voice left. You and your kind screwed this country up so badly that it will take the Republicans years to correct. Obama is still so out of touch he is submitting a $3.7 Trillion budget? What a dumb as@

#7.1 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:06 AM EST

Average American, you really need to use more than just Fox news for your source of information. I think most everyone will agree now that it isn't just one side or the other that has "screwed this country up so badly". BTW, didn't the Republicans have control of Congress, the Presidency, and the Supreme Court during at least 6 years of the past decade? How can you say they didn't add to this 'screwing up' of the country? Obama and his congress only had the same type of majority as the Republicans did for 2 years -- can you really say it's only been the Dems' fault?

3 votes

#7.2 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:23 AM EST

Drake Cennedig

Average American-2299641

GOP, n., an acronym standing for Grand Old Plutocracy

Plutocracy, n., a government or state in which the wealthy class rules. See also, Fascist

If you feel insulted by such bigotry as this, please consider removing the term dumb asa from your comments. As demonstrated above, you and your biased kind have screwed up this country far more than either the Republicans or the Democrats ever could.

#7.3 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:55 PM EST

retired '08

AC55: clearly, the GOP weren't raised with warm fuzzies--just, silver spoons. Also, some people need to reread the post by Steven Teleen (above). The history seems to repeat itself to the letter.

#7.4 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:59 PM EST

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/press/walkers-budget-scheme-undemocratic-unbalanced-potentially-unconstitutional.html

How do you destroy your state and ensure you will no be reelected, cut taxes and spend more:

-- Walker also pushed through three tax cut bills negatively impacting projected tax revenues by $117 million --

I get this, when you want to break up a union, all you do is create a budget crisis, then blame the unions, and try to shove through a bill which should put all of the burden of the tax cuts onto the backs of union workers. In addition, you make sure they can't EVER, get any of that back:

-- On collective bargaining, it [the legislation]:
1) removes rights to bargain collectively for most of 175,00 state employees;
2) exempts most law enforcement, firefighters, and Wisconsin State Patrol; [those unions supported Walker and who is the governor going to call out to start firing on its taxpayers when the citizens of Wisconsin decide they don't like their new Republican overlords]
3) does not allow employers to collect union dues in paychecks [how this part of the law is at all related to fiscal repsonsibility no one can ever explain.]

If the purpose of the bill was not to break the unions, why these three provisions ?

Governor Walker, Wisconsin's newest FASCIST DICTATOR, nice work if you can get it.

15 votes

#8 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:03 PM EST

Beverly in Chicago

Duh101

If the purpose of the bill was not to break the unions, why these three provisions ?

Also, why did the governor (*ahem*) Koch brothers' worthy prosit!$-te give money away.

Gov. Walker just spent $140 million in special interest giveaways and now he's borrowing $165 million and adding at least $30 million to the state credit card."

Walker's Budget Scheme: Undemocratic, Unbalanced, Potentially Unconstitutional

Government Rights Takeaway, $30 Million Credit Card Tab, Legislative Usurping Questioned

The only reason for a delay at this point would be to prevent the press and public from learning the details of his budget.

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/press/walker-flinches-on-releasing-budget-in-face-of-mounting-protests.html

Governor Walker, Wisconsin's newest FASCIST DICTATOR, nice work if you can get it.

Governor Walker is the commie that makes me see red.

6 votes

#8.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:36 PM EST

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41672854/ns/politics-more_politics/

Embarassed - "Why do so many assume that state workers are over compensated? "

You should be embarrassed, because it is a fact, not an assumption.

"In 2010, median earnings of government workers who were union members were 25 percent higher than earnings of private workers."

4 votes

#8.2 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:26 AM EST

Read the next line of the article in the link you provided pjam09. It points out that the data behind this statistic were not controlled for the level of education required for the jobs compared. In other words, the comparison on the private side included positions that required only a high school education where the public side had salaries for positions that required a college degree, or often post-graduate. That is a bogus comparison, because it is well documented statistically that on the private side education alone will account for this large a difference.

As they say: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Statistics are only as good as the sampling technique, and sampling techniques can be intentionally designed to show what you want to show. That is why you can't be lazy and just accept the statistic. You need to understand where it came from. It is also why peer reviewed scientific research requires that the sampling technique be described in detail.

7 votes

#8.3 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:44 PM EST

Lara Mill

Thank you, Steven, for pointing out what the rest of the article said. I had just read those statistics before reading these comments and I just feel SO TIRED of people glazing over information and then commenting with half knowledge of what they are speaking about!

Educate yourself, know your subject!

"It is better to have people think you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." – Mark Twain

4 votes

#8.4 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:50 PM EST

rbrtpckrbckr

Years ago I worked for a farmer. Hundreds of times I heard him say, "figures don't lie, but liars can figure."

1 vote

#8.5 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:22 PM EST

BigRed-3038597

As an ex-state employee in NE, I think the proposed pension contribution & health insurance premium increase are very fair but the Collective Bargaining change is awful. Can't they compromise??!@

5 votes

#9 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:10 PM EST

SJC-1437429

The evil fascist Republican side refuses to even talk about it.

6 votes

#9.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:17 PM EST

Americans don't negotiate with terrorists.

They intentionally disabled the democratic process simply because they cower to the unions who they have sold themselves to. They want to run and hide, lets help them with a bus to Mexico.

5 votes

#9.2 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:33 AM EST

And of course inviting supreme court justices to your secret conservative think tank meetings, and paying all their expenses, then having them go back to work and overturn over 100 years of judicial precedent so the Koch brothers and Dick Army can contribute huge sums of money anonymously to fund "grass roots" publicity stunts and buy legislators is not intentionally disabling the the democratic process?

I guess you are right, that is not terrorist. It is traitorous.

If you ever wondered how a German democracy could so quickly turn into the fascist state it did in the 1930s, pay attention. Big corporations using their money to drown out public exposure to opposing opinions, blaming the economic downturn created by their greed on scapegoat ethnic groups, and encouraging brown-shirt violence (like some Tea Party participants often propose) are the perfect storm. Once we are all frightened enough we will gladly give up our rights for security. The Homeland Security Act and our invasion of Iraq on trumped up fear were only the dry run.

6 votes

#9.3 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:26 PM EST

lisa s-1749992

The reason German democracy failed was was because the bankers had a stranglehold over the German people.Sound familiar.

2 votes

#9.4 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:30 PM EST

Steven - You make the most sense of anyone I have ever seen on Firstread. You are articulate and well informed, and I appreciate your voice of reason here. Thank you.

1 vote

#9.5 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:11 AM EST

SJC-1437429

"Americans don't negotiate with terrorists."

I see, the workers that want to collectively bargain are now called "terrorists".

I suppose you want to throw them all in Gitmo with no charges forever.

#9.6 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:02 PM EST

Drake Cennedig

pjam09

You say that Democrats are the terrorists? Consider this: The owner of the News Corporation, parent company of Fox News, has invested in Nosotek, a North Korean video game company. Fox is funding part of the North Korean economy, but it's democrats that are the terrorists? L O L

As proven by the above example of bias, bigotry like yours makes the extremist world go round, while normal people choose to take what they hear with a grain of salt. Please, next time you find yourself with the urge to be insulting, at least back up your insults with actual fact instead of pointless childish name-calling.

David O. McKay once said, "The rising sun can dispel the darkness of night, but it cannot banish the blackness of malice, hatred, bigotry, and selfishness from the hearts of humanity." Would you agree that it is our job to banish the blackness of the bigot?

#9.7 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:05 PM EST

Wm.-375815

Wow! If this is even half accurate, then the GOP are really criminals. They reallocate the revenues that would have kept the budget in balance by cutting taxes and then want state workers to take a hair cut. And can somebody explain to me how health savings accounts aren't simply a tax dodge for the affluent? Real working people don't have $10,000 or even $5,000 to deposit up front in an account to cover high deductible health insurance. They just hope they don't incur the health expenses. And since the federal HSA can be converted at retirement to cover Medicare, it again just seems to be a way for the affluent to escape the tax man with another tax free savings account.

9 votes

#10 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:16 PM EST

You must have just woken up after a 50 year nap. There hasn't been any honest Republicans since Eisenhower. Welcome to the new century.

11 votes

#10.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:25 PM EST

Carl-2723004

LOL @ Duh101..... Coming from what I perceive to be a loyal democrat, you must be in denial about the whole Monica Lewinski thing huh?

There is dishonesty on both sides of the fence....

7 votes

#10.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:33 PM EST

beachbum36

That's true Carl, but only the Republicans continually try to extend (and continue) tax cuts for the rich while cutting basics services for the poor! SHAME on them.

7 votes

#10.3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:47 PM EST

I don't know,

There is dishonesty on both sides of the fence....

That all depends on "what is is"... ;-)

Personally, I think they all stink to high heaven. Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans just seem to be a little more heavy handed in doing the payback thing.

3 votes

#10.4 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:47 PM EST

snk

Oral sex in a White House pantry and screwing over 175,000 state employees to bust up the unions in Wisconsin for political gain...that's a real fair and balanced analogy you got there Carl.

6 votes

#10.5 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:17 PM EST

beachbum - "only the Republicans continually try to extend (and continue) tax cuts for the rich while cutting basics services for the poor!"

And only Democrats continually try to take from the accomplished to buy votes from those seeking handouts, as is highlighted by their push for Amnesty for illegal immigrants. You think you are on the "poor" end now, wait until Dems push Amnesty through, you will be the one paying more in taxes to purchase the votes of the "newly legal poor".... lets see how much you want your earnings redistributed then.

Nothing like a self-admitted bum complaining about losing his handouts, and obviously loyal to the hand that feeds rather than loyal to the nation and its future.

5 votes

#10.6 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:46 AM EST

Pajama09...I recall Ronald Reagan giving amnesty to illegals. He too gave handouts, to the wealthy and wealthier. And Republicans are still doing it ala Governor Walker. Handouts for the corporations and stick it to the working class. However, there is one point in this drama I haven't seen in these posts which is that this is a national effort funded by the wealthy Koch brothers, Dick Armey, et al, to destroy the Democratic party. Then the Republicans can have what they want....haves and have nots. And, if you pathetic little minds who are posting on this blog think that includes you, think again. IT DOES NOT. You will be standing in the cold, hat in hand like everybody else.

4 votes

#10.7 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:26 AM EST

GrammaKnows

Reagan DID give amnesty to the illegals, and he did it because Social Security was in trouble and it would add workers to the tax rolls to help SS get solvent again. Unfortunately, this GOP has used the "illegal workers" fiction to explain tight employment markets when in fact automation, computer controlled manufacturing, tax shelters by conducting business out of the country are the real reasons for loss of employment...and they have backed themselves so far into that "blame the illegals" corner, it is impossible to get any kind of amnesty through now that would help soften the blow of any Social Security reform.

Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare and Aid to Families do support individuals and families, but they exist ONLY because it is crucial to keep as many people IN the economy as possible. All the rhetoric in the world about "lazy" and "handouts" etc is smoke and mirrors. It is and always has been corporate welfare. If Grammy and Gramps are too poor to live independantly, it means someone in their children's generation has to take them in and tend them when they become unable to care for themselves, and it takes that person OUT of the workforce and economic participation - same for the caretakers of disabled and unabled.

So far, the only thing I have seen from this latest Republican fiasco, on the Federal AND State level is to force insolvency on all governments by ramming through tax cuts to bring revenues low enough that balanced budgets and surplusses vanish...and then point fingers and blame it on everyone else when the income disappears.

4 votes

#10.8 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:24 AM EST

pjam - "only Democrats continually try to take from the accomplished to buy votes from those seeking handouts"

How is that worse than taking from the poor and giving tax cuts to millionaires to buy votes (and contributions) from big corporations?

3 votes

#10.9 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:17 AM EST

listoire

The liberals in all of the world,including this country , are doing what we always do, trying to advise restraint,but as usual ,the majority want to destroy and replace with right wing "reforms". The population of all the world want to curb the unrestraint of their power structure.

3 votes

#11 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:18 PM EST

Comment collapsed by the community

Do you really believe that teachers can make someone learn if the student (1) doesn't care, (2) their parents don't care, (3) their peers don't care, or (4) they were unfortunate enough to have some form of learning disability. You are quick to make teachers accountable, but seem to have a blind eye toward the accountability of the students and parents in the learning process.

And, if you are serious about your condescension toward a second language learners, I would like to see your grammar formulation for your second language, assuming you even have one.

9 votes

#11.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:51 PM EST

Gerald-2690842

I saw the couple of Wisconsin teachers on one of the local TV stations this morning. They were going to get about a $10000 pay cut from $90000 dollar yearly pay. A number of us would welcome the opportunity to have an $80000 household income!!!!! Let's cut the spending of money we don't have!!!!

8 votes

#12 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:20 PM EST

If you want to get and $80,000 income, go to college, get a degree, get licensed and make something of yourself. Don't blame the teachers because you are too lazy to go out and do what is needed to make a decent living.

10 votes

#12.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:27 PM EST

That is a lot of money; it can make a person jealous sometimes! I reviewed a listing of wages and benefits for public workers on the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinal's website, mostly interested in the teachers in our district. There were a few making that kind of money.

They have been teaching in our district for more than 30 years, and are now facing the difficult decision of whether to take early retirement to help our district meet their new budgets. And none of them make anywhere near what the (non-union) administrators earn. Add to that they are treasures, held in high esteem by parents, fellow educators, and students. What a loss to our school.

It is a lot of money, but don't you think that someone, anyone, who puts in 30+ years with one employer while also continually furthering their own education to better their skills, deserves to be well-paid. I do.

9 votes

#12.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:29 PM EST

Agreed 100% Why does anyone who is not making $80,000 or more even consider voting Republican. "Stupid is as Stupid does, I guess."

5 votes

#12.3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:36 PM EST

dud0:

Because they want a chance to make $80K a year and their best chance for this lies with conservatives.

4 votes

#12.4 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:39 PM EST

kate 1855079

Is this TWO teachers who each make $90,000? Or a couple (TWO teachers in same family) whose joint income is $90,000?

1 vote

#12.5 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:51 PM EST

American-3074521

Teacher pay scales are available for public view. I challenge all of you to look a few up. You will be surprised.

1 vote

#12.6 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:02 PM EST

oppie-1383989

Yup, it sounds like the facts are being stated only in a fashion the right wants it to be known. $45,000 per year income for each person, sounds about average to me. Not exactly over paid by any means.

5 votes

#12.7 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:03 PM EST

80,000 a year?

Without unions you'd be working for 80 bucks a week.

6 votes

#12.8 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:17 PM EST

American-3074521

I challenge you to do some research and look up a few teacher pay scales. Look up your states and a few surrounding states. The bulk of teachers, those in the class room day in and day out, do not make salaries any where near what you posted.

6 votes

#12.9 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:18 PM EST

Stressed citizen

I think the Milwaukee teachers you are quoting are the exception rather than the rule in Wisconsin. Most of the teachers in rural districts do not come near $80K a year. I have taught in a rural district for 7 years (also have a M.A.) and I make $35K a year. I choose to work for this wage because I love my job and feel like the luckiest person on earth to be able to work where I work. Yet, I also have a family of my own to support.

A pay cut in today's economy will be huge for my family. I have alread endured pay freezes in an effort to maintain my benefits over the past seven years. If I lose my benefits or my income I will have a difficult time getting my 2-yr-old daughter the healthcare she needs (she was born with a heart defect). I am looking at a 5K cut to put me at about 30K/year if this passes.

As tough as it will be, I would be willing to contribute more to my insurance and my pension if I knew I had bargaining rights. I do know how to live frugally. My kids and I already shop at second hand stores, cut coupons, and drive an 8-yr-old car with over 120K miles on it. We will find a way to make it, but bargaining rights are a way of excercising our democratic rights in this country.

8 votes

#12.10 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:21 PM EST

Let's bring back the good old days, before unions.

You load sixteen tons and what do you get?

Another day older and deeper in debt.

St. Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go.

I owe my soul to the company store.

6 votes

#12.11 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:25 PM EST

We'd all be making peanuts were it not for the courage and strength of conviction of unions. Forty hour workweeks, overtime pay, paid time off, child labor laws, safety in the workplace. We all benefit, whether we pay the dues or not.

6 votes

#12.12 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:27 PM EST

Oh Stressed, I wouldn't live in Milwaukee if you paid me! i certainly wouldn't send my kids to MPS. Don't get me wrong, teachers are not to blame for the cesspool that is MPS.

You have my respect for staying in education through these challenges; what would we do without you! My deep concern is we're going to be finding out. I can't imagine what Wisconsin education is going to look like in 5 or 10 years.

3 votes

#12.13 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:35 PM EST

JimS-3075105

Some facts on Wisconsin college employee salaries:

As one of the larger employers within the City of Superior and Douglas County, the immediate impact of the proposed changes to the Wisconsin Retirement System and health insurance contributions is significant and will be painful on individuals and families. Our human resources staff (at UW-Superior) has compiled several real employee scenarios to illustrate the impact on their paychecks; these examples include the current furlough requirements in effect through 6/30/11, WRS proposed contributions, and family health insurance coverage:

Example 1: University Services Program Associate (classified employee)

Salary: $16.467/hr ($34,383 annual); 11 years of service Current net pay period: $890.15 Future net pay period: $722.76 Impact: $167.50 per pay period reduction; 18.8% reduction

Keep in mind that this is a salary for a program associate with 11 years in the system--most make a bit over $20,000 a year--an 18% reduction in their pay is going to determine whether they can afford to heat their houses in the winter.

Example 2: Associate Researcher (academic staff employee)

Salary: Current net monthly: Future net monthly: Impact:

$46,500 annual; 6 years of service $2,977.87 $2,675.14 $302.73 per pay period reduction; 10.2% reduction

Academic staff have no union representation, no job security, and the heaviest and most difficult academic and staff workload. These positions require a minimum of 6 years of college education to be qualified for their position.

Example 3: Associate Professor (faculty)

Salary: Current net monthly: Future net monthly: Impact:

$51,277 nine-month salary; 10 years of service $2,758.15 $2,349.72 $408.43 per pay period reduction; 14.8% reduction

For faculty, they must have 9 years ( in most cases longer) of college education to qualify for these jobs. During those 9 years of study, like the 6 years of study required for academic staff positions, they accumulate significant debt and live below the poverty level.

Only classified and faculty have union representation.

2 votes

#12.14 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:04 PM EST

Jeff - "Because they want a chance to make $80K a year and their best chance for this lies with conservatives."

Are you serious? You really believe that?

1 vote

#12.15 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:22 AM EST

Wow, this is the first discourse I've read on this subject that actually sounds educated and thoughtful.

This is not a 'repair' bill, it's a thinly veiled shot to the very core of unions. Public employees do not have to lose their collective bargaining rights before Wisconsin's budget is 'fixed'. If Walker really meant to 'fix' our budget, he would have written this bill to carry across all public employment. Instead, he exempted fire and police unions because he didn't want to deal with the mess that walkouts would have caused. So I guess only some union workers are the problem, others are just fine.

Walker's next action is reported to be across the board slashing of public school funding. It's wonderful that his tax cuts for business can come at the expense of public education. So now, in addition to disrespecting and vilifying teachers, he will also see to it that many of them will lose their jobs, as districts will not have the money to pay them anymore. This loss of revenue is in addition to several years of reduced revenues in the face of lower tax revenues as our economy tanked.

The one thing Walker has yet to do is try to put into place any protections against local tax increases; our concern now is that local governments will try to make up their state revenue loses on the backs of property owners. Maybe that's okay to our governor, as long as they don't touch businesses.

This is just politics as usual. Walker is positioning himself to run for president; we can only hope those actions begin to reveal their consequences before he has the chance to run roughshod over the entire nation.

I'm long winded, but I am shocked at how quick good people are to turn against public employees. They have worked hard to make Wisconsin a great state. They have educated our children. They have protected us. They have stood guard over our prisoners. And we talk about them as though they were the enemy. Our public workers did not create this mess, but the will certainly pay the price.

9 votes

#13 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:22 PM EST

Jealousy is a great tool to divide individuals and one purposely injected in this conflict. Divide and conquer. That saying has been around for eons for a reason.

4 votes

#13.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:06 PM EST

The unions that were exempted from this action were the three unions that supported Walker in his bid for the governorship.

3 votes

#13.2 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:39 AM EST

Russell-2157151

Deb -

I understand Walker exempted the police and firefighters' unions because those unions endorsed him when he ran for governor. Coincidence?

2 votes

#13.3 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:28 PM EST

Nicely put, Deb.

5 votes

#14 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:30 PM EST

Madmax55

So the few (state workers) complain, however it was the many of WI that said enough and it is time to get our house in order.

Change must happen.

4 votes

#15 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:30 PM EST

Mad, I don't think anyone disagrees that we need change. I question why public workers and collective bargaining have become the scapegoat of this administration, and I am absolutely amazed at how willing people are to blindly believe the rhetoric without regard to the facts. And it is important to note that Mr Walker won his position with 52% of the popular vote; a lot of Wisconsinites did not elect him governor, and he seems unwilling to recognize the importance of civil discourse and compromise.

8 votes

#15.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:35 PM EST

Wm.-375815

Sometime after the year 2000, I began to fully appreciate and understand the apparent historical anomaly of how a highly educated people with freedom of the press and public education could follow a mad man down the road to world war and genocide. It is all too obvious.

5 votes

#15.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:37 PM EST

babyfat

Mad Max,

Change may happen, but it needs to happen according to the process that's in place to deal with the contracts that are legal and binding. The governor and legislature should really try to work within that framework........negotiate new contracts.

5 votes

#15.3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:59 PM EST

Deb - if he was elected with 52% of the popular vote, I would be interested to know what the turnout was. If 50% of eligible voters voted, and he got 52% of that, that is only 26% of all eligible voters. That is how many of the teaparty got elected. It was a result of low turnout by Democrats. Please, lets don't let that happen again. Ever.

3 votes

#15.4 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:34 AM EST

Tired of McBush

Wow where do I start!!

1. There should not be one and I mean not one government employee that is a republican anymore. If you are then you are biting the hand that feeds you and your getting what you asked for from the people you elected.

2. I love how when the republicans are elected with a smaller voting block than the president how they say they are follow the will of the people but when obama received way more votes in an election that had more people vote in it that he is somehow illegitimate, or going against the will of the people. He spent his first two years doing what "HE TOLD THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY HE WAS GOING TO DO!!! WE VOTED HIM IN TO DO JUST THAT!!! IF YOUR ELECTION WAS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE THEN SO WAS HIS!!! EXCEPT HE HAD A BIGGER MAJORITY OF THE CITIZENS WITH HIM!! Fact : fewer people vote in midterm elections!!! He is doing exactly what i voted him in to do, be the adult level headed president of the greatest country on the planet!!

3. If the teaparty was so worried about deficit then they would have been against the bush tax cuts for the wealthy. I just cant understand how they can fix their lips to say waste after that dumbazz move. Now we are spending to much and the government workers are the ones that have to suffer? B.S.!!

4. All republicans should give up pay and healthcare for themselves and family from the government they think is socialist!! Stop driving on roads that are paved by government. Dont get mad when you call 911 and get the village idiot since you dont want to pay a qualified person what they are worth! Dont get pissed when the next time you go to SS office and the person helping you has sold you SS number to his buddy!! You get what you pay for!! Just a few years ago no one wanted these jobs and the people that chose to take them were considered stupid for taking them "lowly civil servants"if I remember correctly was the term used!! Wow what a difference a few years make. You freedom loving, free-market, republicans should love the investment they made!!! They choose less pay in jobs nobody else wanted for security and you know what it worked out!! Now you want to punish them for it? ATTENTION BIBLE LOVING RIGHT ENVY IS A SIN!! The governor created this crisis with tax-cuts the state could not afford. Sorry but now he has to take them back or fire workers and run on his record!!

5. How much do you think the repubs, that have done nothing in the last two years to help america during one of the worst crisis in history of this country, have spent on staff and plane ride ect in that time frame? If all you do is vote "no" then your wasting my money. I want it back!!

4 votes

#15.5 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:01 AM EST

Maggie-417876

GREAT RANT! I agree wholeheartedly.

Everything you say is TRUE. Much of it has been glossed over or totally ignored by the media. N t just Fox News either. It is SO frustrating that people cannot see what is going on in front of their faces.

The Republicans have shown and are showing EVERY DAY that they would rather take down this country than give one bit of power to Democrats.

VOTE THEM ALL OUT IN 2012!!!

1 vote

#15.6 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:23 AM EST

I love how when the Republicans are elected with a smaller voting block than the president how they say they are follow the will of the people but when Obama received way more votes in an election that had more people vote in it that he is somehow illegitimate, or going against the will of the people.

Pretty much describes the party base nowadays.

#15.7 - Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:48 AM EST

Laurie-3074453

Why do you think the Governor won't release his budget until this "repair bill" passes? This is one of a long string of ram-through pieces of legislation that we have had in the past 4 weeks, which have radically changed our legal code, protected abusers in nursing homes, and given tax breaks that he now expects public employees to pay for. He has pitted private workers against public workers. I suspect that his budget for the nexty biennium will only pass if the new legislators are duped in to accepting this repair bill. I hope the renegade 14 can stay away until we see the guts of what is coming. Then everyone will see this for what it is -- a way to reward the monied at the expense of everyone else.

#16 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:33 PM EST

BluMtn

Walker is just implementing the Koch brother's plan to completely destroy opportunities for average Americans that's all. Welcome to live under the New American Nobility by Wealth. They won't pay their fair share of taxes, they'll remove every possible safety net to help people from losing everything they've worked for and they intend to be certain if you're old or ill you'll just die quickly because only those of the Noble Class deserve good health care.

Our forefathers left the Nobility Rule of Europe because they had no hope or opportunity under a system of governance that kept political control and wealth in the hands of a tiny percentage of the population. We've grown so stupid and complacent that we actually elect people to public office who will take away everything our "Founding Fathers" intended to provide for us. They've taken our investments, our homes, our good paying jobs and now they'll take our rights...

Just keep watching FOX though, listening to Rush and Beck, it'll all be over soon enough.

6 votes

#17 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:36 PM EST

As I stated earlier, this is an action taking place in other states as well, financed by the Koch brothers, Dick Armey and other wealthy scions to destroy the Democratic party. Since the Citizens United case which the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are people and can give unlimited funds to candidates, the money pouring into Republican politicians is mind boggling. These Republican governors have their orders which is to do what Walker is doing. Destroy the unions. They do traditionally fund Democratic candidates. Destroy the funding source and you destroy the organization.

1 vote

#17.1 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:45 AM EST

lisa s-1749992

Hey Jamie, This crisis was cause by Wall Street Bankers. They control this country and the buy both partys.

#17.2 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:47 PM EST

Do you think the Supreme Court will ever realize they made a big mistake? Probably not. I guess it's turning out exactly the way they wanted it to. I wish there was still such thing as honor.

1 vote

#17.3 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:36 AM EST

PewaukeeGuy

Deb- You'd be surprised how many people have commented that all these teachers should just outright be fired.

Just what our nation needs, kids home schooled by parents who can't take responsibility for their 5-second Justin Bieber attention spans who think that the government pays for new roads, police and firefighters through magical money trees, not by those EVIL(!) taxes that people like Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan really shouldn't pay a lot of.

They should teach their kids..."Would you like fries with that?"

3 votes

#18 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:36 PM EST

hey, pewkee guy:

Home-schooled student far out perform public-school educated students. Google it yourself.

3 votes

#18.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:41 PM EST

Wouldn't you love to know how many of those who spout off like that have taken 'sick' days to go golfing, go to the movies, get ready for 'the big thing', etc? It is stunning to me how judgmental people have been.

And since when have we despised those who struggle to make their voices heard in the political process?

Public employees of all walks are trying to make their voices heard In Madison, yet everyone's screaming about the teachers. When did they become the enemy, and why wasn't I informed?

4 votes

#18.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:45 PM EST

PewaukeeGuy

I don't doubt that but that's also a very small percentage of education performed by parents who care that their kids will one day become something.

I personally don't believe that those who buy into the political hype machine that these politicians are doing what's best for everyone at the cost of others are skilled enough to maintain a percentage like that.

I was a state employee of Wisconsin. Most state employees are well underpaid compared to the private sector, and several years ago when the last guvnah (a democrat) tried to show he was serious about cutting costs and hit the state employees, once again there was no talk of cutting into the consultants who get paid more for doing the same job (a state report verified this). Of course not, the consulting firms put money into Joe Politician's pocket.

1 vote

#18.3 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:50 PM EST

Home schooled children are frequently very highly educated; problem is, who can stay home to teach their children and still meet their financial responsibilities?

4 votes

#18.4 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:55 PM EST

Jeff, Regarding your comment on home schooling, the first thing one of those scientists you wanted more of would ask is, who did the study? Let's see, I'm guessing you are referring to the 30% number provided by the research done by the National Home Education Research Institute. Gee, I wonder where their biases lie with regards to this question? Did you just read this, or can you tell me how they controlled their study to make sure they compared apples to apples and didn't pick up any other unknown experimental variables than the home schooling? How did they select their test subjects, both control and experimental? What did they test to do their comparison? Has it been replicated with a different set of test subjects and experimenters?

3 votes

#18.5 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:36 PM EST

I like your point about contractors PewaukeeGuy. I often think we have this backward. The first to be cut should be the contractors and outside sources. Those most vocal about cutting taxes are often the very people who make much of their money by selling their goods and services to the government. I have a relative in management who always complains about both government taxes and unions, and yet most of his work comes from government projects and his health benefits still come from the union guild he joined on his way up the ladder to management.

Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing. It allows us to think that we are really good people even when we are doing terrible things. It allows us to reflexively come up with excuses as to why those people deserve the pain I am inflicting and why I deserve these special tax breaks even though I make more money than 98% of the rest of our citizens.

4 votes

#18.6 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:50 PM EST

I suspect that the people who are currently home schooling their kids have some qualification to do so. If there was no public education and people who couldn't afford private schools all had to homeschool their kids, it would likely be a very different story. I didn't homeschool my kids because I didn't feel I had the educational qualifications. I know others who did homeschool their kids who didn't have the qualifications and those kids have grown up ignorant and incapable of doing anything other than very low paying jobs. Can you imagine a whole country like that? I wonder if that's what the Republicans really want?

1 vote

#18.7 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:44 AM EST

Fern-3077374

I'm a state employee in a northeastern state and our state is hiring contracted workers now instead of state workers. They have no accountability and it takes three to do the job of one state employee. The state is actually spending more on the three contracted workers that took the place of one. Private contracting is another form of taking away collective bargaining. The contracted workers receive low wages but the boss is doing real well. Especially with that nice tax break. I know the goal is to hire incompetent low paid contracted workers who have no investment in providing social service, education, public safety, road maintenance and nursing care to your parent's, children and grandchildren. The republicans will accomplish their mission and we can all work for the same wages and no benefits and just be "lucky we have a job at least for this week."

1 vote

#18.8 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:00 PM EST

Emma-2599691

Wisconsin, after reading this article you guys got some dumb @!$%# Governor there, and I would say the same thing no mater where I am standing politically.

4 votes

#19 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:40 PM EST

ksw62118

Emma before you call someone a dumb bleep perhaps you should learn how to spell. Another shining example of our wonderful public school system.

#19.1 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:29 AM EST

johnr123

If I am reading the article correctly the tax cuts that Walker imposed were for health savings accounts (allowing more people to be able to afford insurance, (I thought that was a good thing) money for relocated business (helping keep business and employment up, (I thought that was a good thing), and exclusions for hiring more employees, (I thought that was a good thing). Maybe I am missing something but these seem targeted to the middle class. I didn't see anything about tax cuts to corporations. What am I missing.

2 votes

#20 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:42 PM EST

All true John, but the cuts beg the question: why are we making tax cuts when we don't have the funding we need in the first place? Isn't it a conservative tenant that you do not do what you cannot pay for? If this screaming budget deficit Mr Walker is projecting is true, how do we justify adding to it with tax cuts?

5 votes

#20.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:51 PM EST

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/117021-pew-outlines-cost-projections-for-extending-bush-tax-cus

The same way the Republicans in the Federal government justify extending the Bush tax cuts and adding $700 billion to the deficit?

2 votes

#20.2 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:46 AM EST

Mike in Delray

Heartlight3....that's drivel.....people keeping more of what they earn doesn't add a single penny to the deficit. Government spending more than they take in adds to the deficit......you act like it was the Governments money to begin with and they gave it away.....

So, even saying that there will be less taxes collected....$70 billion a year for the next 10 years, The Republican Continuing Budget Resolution just reduced spending by 60 billion for the rest of Fiscal Year 2011.....which by the way there never was a budget put in place by Obama or the Democrat Congress last year...they punted and we've been on Continuing Budget Resolutions @ 2009 levels since Oct. 2010.....good job.

#20.3 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:41 AM EST

Mike in Delray

And..Heartlight3...using your logic.....that tax cuts add to the deficit....

"Extending only the middle-class tax cuts — those benefiting individuals making less than $200,000 per year and couples earning less than $250,000 — would cost $2.2 trillion over the next decade, including interest."....

....Compare that to the 700 billion over 10 years.....tell me again using your logic what is adding to the deficit???

The Federal Government is too big and spends too much.

#20.4 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:07 AM EST

Isn't it a conservative tenant that you do not do what you cannot pay for?

It's become the party dogma that tax cuts pay for themselves. While it is true that those who are cash-strapped are most likely to use their new found purchase power right away, thereby injecting the money back into the system, the serious flaw comes from believing this strategy will work equally amongst the different earning brackets. Those with high income typically have money left over after they have finished with their purchases (I know I do), so giving them more money will accomplish nothing since there is nothing left for them to purchase (I just throw mine in the bank). After all, even the wealthy will have a limit on the number of new cars, houses, pairs of shoes, etc.

The second problem comes from the fact that most of the party base cannot differentiate between the income tax and the corporate tax. A lowering of the corporate tax for Walmart will allow them to keep more of their revenue, which they can then reinvest back into the company in the form of new stores (construction) or extra employees (more income tax). However, a lowering of the income tax will not cause the same benefits, as the CEO (who benefits most) does not hire new employees out of his own salary (unless he needs more butlers).

#20.5 - Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:14 AM EST

Moby49

This is a bald-faced attack by republicans on the opposition. Unfortunately, by eliminating the bargaining rights of these people, we now know the "state" can dictate to us all of us or remove our rights just as easily. Frankly, this tactic is more Iranian than American. We should all worry about the ramifications. Egypt anyone??

3 votes

#21 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:42 PM EST

raketeDeleted

da man-2961352

Why is nobody talking about the fact that these cuts are less than 10% of the actual upcoming deficit. so where exactly is he going to shave the other 90% from?

4 votes

#22 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:43 PM EST

Now don't confuse the Republicans with facts. That runs counter to the talking points.

4 votes

#22.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:51 PM EST

raketeDeleted

AnaBanana-1782128

Wisconsin's Walker looted a surplus for his wealthy donors. He is paying back some unions for their support and punishing others with this fabricated financial emergency. To Wisconsin I say, arrest him for racketeering for giving favors to unions that supported him and then recall him immediately and hold a special election. Elections have consequences. Shame on those who didn't vote in 2010 because this could have been avoided if Democrats showed up to vote.

Same goes for women who didn't vote in 2010. Now our government, state and national, is legislating our bodies for us. Shame on you for not showing up to vote in 2010. Make sure you don't make that mistake in 2012. You know who you are. I am lucky enough to live in California. No one is legislating my body however the federal government is trying to defund planned parenthood. Something I as well as all three of my daughters have gotten services from for various health issues. Not abortions. Two of my three daughters are registered Republican, one is registered Democrats and my husband and I are independent. After this none will vote Republican. NONE. That is five votes for President Obama and Democrats in 2012. Thank you Republicans for that!

6 votes

#23 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:59 PM EST

The Us is currently no 31 in education among nations worldwide.We need to reduce teachers compensation and other education expenditures so we can become number 1 again. The Unions and the the constant impositions they have made on our economy have to be brought to heel.We don't need the 40 hour work week, or a wage that a middle class family can support itself with. We don't even need a middle class.What good is collective bargaining? It just slows down productivity.You all need to just shutup and take whatever pay you can get.And overtime? What's up with that? We're destroying our corporations.How can we expect our executives to get by on only a couple of hundred times a productive workers pay?

This is all a part of the Republican plan to get people back to work, as they promised, in exchange for extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.It will be much easier to create new jobs, when they all pay half as much as your old jobs.But in order to accomplish that, they first need to cripple the unions.Go Republicans!

3 votes

#24 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:01 PM EST

Brent-3019177

Surely you gest.

#24.1 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:25 PM EST

Yes blame the teachers! It certainly could have nothing to do with the fact that parents don't value education or expect their children to learn and excel. It also can't have anything to do with the fact that the other 31 nations ahead of us respect their teachers rather than complain that they are somehow lucky to be able to work for less money than they would make in the private sector to educate their future workers, scientists, and inventors.

Why do you think your children will value education or listen to their teachers when you are telling them their teachers are lazy, over-paid people who don't know what is good for them. Clearly you don't value teachers, so why should your kids? Then when your kids don't learn anything you blame the teachers.

Perhaps instead of blaming teacher unions, which have fought as much for class sizes and conditions that help learning as they have wages and benefits, we should be looking at what those 32 other countries that are ahead of us in education are doing. Why do so many in our country immediately assume we can learn nothing from the countries that are ahead of us? Is it because they are afraid the answers they find won't support their ideological beliefs?

If you do take the time to look, I think you will find that the unions are not the problem. It has to do with the fact that those societies ahead of us really value education (rather than just mouthing superficial lip service) and respect the teachers who educate their children.

4 votes

#24.2 - Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:56 PM EST

I, too, hope you jest.

1 vote

#24.3 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:52 AM EST

Apparently my hurried attempt at sarcasm, on my way out the door to work,was too subtle.I don't really approve of the things I posted above.In reality, we should be increasing teachers compensation, and hireing more of them.College should be free.The practice of giving"social promotions" to students who haven't learned the material should cease.If too many states do what this jackwagon of a governor wants to do, we're going to become a nation of daylaborers.Without the education required to work at a fast food joint in India.

I'm annoyed with the fact that none of our politicos have any sort of plan to get people working.I'm horrified and fearful, because every time I hear about someone getting a new job, it pays a lot less than their old one.Evey time!

And don't call me Surely.

2 votes

#24.4 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:35 AM EST

Brent-3019177

SonofMolly, I am glad you got the reference. LOL!!!

#24.5 - Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:20 PM EST

Tired of McBush

Wow where do I start!!

2 votes

#24.6 - Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:06 AM EST