Joan Smith: When is a house not a home? When it's a council house

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We know how strongly the Conservative Party feels about where people live. Home is very important to Tory politicians, so much so that their ambition is to lift the inheritance tax threshold so that families can more easily stay there. The proposal delighted Middle England when it was announced in 2007, and it's only the annoying circumstance of a financial crisis that's persuaded the present government to postpone it. Clearly it's unfair for families to be faced with selling much-loved homes after 20 years or more just to pay death duties. Stable communities where people know their neighbours and support each other are central to the Big Society.

Scrub all that when it comes to social housing. Local authority tenants need to understand that they don't have homes but temporary accommodation, apportioned to their exact needs, and if they want more flexibility they must join the ranks of owner-occupiers. From next year, council tenants who claim benefits will face financial restrictions similar to those in private rented accommodation; if changes in their circumstances mean that they have too much room, their housing benefit will be cut to persuade them to face reality.

Here's the policy, from the impact assessment published last week alongside the Government's Welfare Bill: "Where claimants are currently living in accommodation which is considered too large for their needs, the housing benefit restriction will provide an incentive to move to more suitably sized accommodation." An "incentive" sounds attractive but what it means in this instance is being threatened with eviction. Of course elderly Mr Patel or 84-year-old Mrs O'Grady will be perfectly free to stay where they are if they choose to make up the shortfall in rent from their own resources; the Government isn't heartless, you know. And local authorities could cut rents, just as ministers challenged landlords to do when they announced similar proposals for the private rented sector.

Up to 700,000 people may have to leave their homes – sorry, temporary accommodation – when the measures come into force. Under the new rules, a separate bedroom is required only for each cohabiting couple and for adults over 21, so a family with two teenage daughters would be regarded as "under-occupying" a three-bedroom council house. So would an elderly woman who has been sharing a two-bedroom flat with her sister, as soon as the latter dies. It's not clear where the thousands of newly homeless will go, given that there's a national shortage of 240,000 one-bedroom properties, but that's a detail. So, apparently, is being forced to move to an unfamiliar new area.

I grew up in council houses which I regarded as home. My parents wallpapered and gardened, in the belief that we had more than a passing connection with the property. I now see the error of my ways, and the self-indulgence of my parents in choosing to live in the old Rothschild mansion in Gunnersbury Park, west London. My dad was offered a flat there because he was a council gardener. But that doesn't excuse my family having ideas above its station.

You can rely on Tory ministers and their middle-class Lib Dem chums to keep the unruly masses in their place. There is a difference between Judy O'Grady and the Colonel's Lady: only the latter is entitled to more bedrooms than she strictly needs.

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More from Joan Smith

  • What with the new cuts to disabled and unemployment benefits coming soon I doubt anyone will be able to afford to live in any sort of house let alone a council one, it will be everyone for themselves down underneath waterloo bridge with a bit of cardboard.... http://dearengland.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/camerons-welfare-reform-workhouse-for-you-me-boy/
  • ziderdrinker
    I'm all in favour of council housing, I grew up in one. I agree that the Tory plans increase insecurity for people in this sort of accomodation. However I haven't heard much shouting from the Labour benches to increase the supply of council houses, but then their record on this would disappoint any Labour supporter. If Labour had used the opportunity during over a decade in governemnt to build substantially more such houses then there wouldn't be quite the pressures there are now. They didn't show anything like the commitment to this issue that Labour supporters might have hoped for. Think back to the early years of the Labour govenment, and how much parliamentary time was wasted trying to stop a few idiots from chasing foxes. Time better spent doing something useful like getting an integrated transport system going (2 Jags for every voter?), or developing sensible policies on housing. In fact the boom in buy to let landlords funded by 'liar loans' occured during their tenure in office. Also International Socialist, Gordon Brown, positively encouraged economic migration from eastern Europe, putting further pressure on public sector housing. Housing pressure is acknowledged as a significant reason why there was a lurch to the far right in some local elections during the latter years of their govenment. The private rented sector is also suffering inflationary pressures due to the inability of people to purchase, and these people can be turned out at a few months notice for no better reason than the landlord needs/wants to put up the rent. More often than not such people are 'economically active' as opposed to a substantial minority of people in social housing, and so are less deserving of our sympathy it would seem. Tories evil, Labour virtuous? A bit too black and white for me.
  • Not an inflammatory comment, I am genuinely interested - Does anyone know of anyone voluntarily leaving a council house to buy their own home? Some of the people I knew who grew up in council houses left home and moved bought a house, some moved into their own council-provided accommodation, but always the parents stayed in the house until death or incapacity forced them out. From my experience, it would seem that once you've got a council house, you never leave it unless forced by circumstance, but I'm interested if that is the general position.
  • DeclanAhern
    "... the Tories have nothing but contempt for the poor...' Possibly quite true, but can you distinguish the Tories and their actions while in office from the Labour Party administration in power for thirteen years? The Labour Party raised taxes for the low-paid by abolishing the 10p tax rate, spent billions on foreign wars while abandoning their plans to eradicate child poverty due to lack of funding, made freinds with the likes of Rupert Murdoch, Lakshai Mittal and Bernie Ecclestone, failed to regulate banks while giving knighthoods to the bank bosses like Fred Goodwin and James Shelby and Paul Myers for 'their services to finance' and then rewarded failure and used taxpayers money to bailout the banks and so on and on! It is 'the political class' and their allies in the media that are the scourge of the poor, not individual political parties!
  • Bicknoller
    ? An Englishman's home has not been his castle since Labour introduced new regulations which councils are using to demand access to your home to see if you have installed a new shower or bathroom, which they then use as an excuse to increase your council tax. Labour also changed the tax laws so that pension companies had to pay tax on dividends. That meant that millions of retired people found that their pension companies did not get enough money to pay the pensions they had promised to people. Council tax increased by 100% over the ten years of Labour government with substantial salary increases for council bosses and dozens on new non-jobs to gratify the politically correct prejudices of councillors. There were however minimal increases in the services provided to the people who paid the increased council tax.. On the other hand Labour did build the dome at a cost of �600 million and sold for less than �100 million. And they did organise the millennium exhibition where entrance was so expensive that hardly anybody went, and they did commission two aircraft carriers which will be mothballed as soon as they are finished because we have no aircraft for them. They also went to war with Iraq on the basis of lies about non-existent WMD. But only 100,000 people died as a result of that so Labour are not all bad. My parents worked for 17 years and never had a holiday. The money they saved on holidays was used to pay for me to go to a small private school. That is a Conservative ethic. They were not rich people, they simply thought that their child was more important than holidays. They did not expect the state to featherbed their lives which is the clear implication of this article and many of the comments to it. I would expect Joan Smith to earn at least �50,000 as a journalist for this paper. She can well afford to pay for her own home, and if her parents are not well off, she can afford to help them as well. There is no reason why she or her parents should live in a house which is subsidised from the taxes of people like myself who income is 65% LESS then hers is.
  • polnan
    why can`t there be a proper rent for council houses, and then the peope who really can`t afford private rents or mortgages, get the reductions given with rent rebate as the present system where rent is paid and no council tax, under the welfare system? too easy?
  • polnan
    and cars, (plural) and holidays, at home and abroad.... etc... ipods and thingys my dh and I have had to buy our own home since our early 20`s, (50 plus years ago) there was no possibility of us having a council house, therefore we had to go without holidays, cars etc, to save a deposit... etc... don`t tell me it was easier in days past, it was not ... we just went without the things that many take as necessities nowadays....
  • Kylo8
    @Peter, It seems there is more than one 'Classwarrior' at work here. I'm a low-wage working man living in private accommodation but am only able to do so as i have few responsibilities. I have no problem with my taxes going to help, mostly families, on low income (but are just as hard working) afford a good home, yes home. Or would you like this country to end up like what has been happening in America, where theres little social housing and (as seen in Channel 4's doc. 'Unreported world') working family's are forced out of their homes and onto the streets, some, highly skilled professionals. Or, if their lucky, are shunted from shelter to shelter with no stability, as they, view social housing as very temporary. Social housing is vital for poorer families especially during economic uncertainties. But its no 'easy living', most still work, and raise children on very tight budgets, even with the benefits of a counsel house. If this is what you think 'fleecing my pocket' is then id rather be fleeced by these people u so despise than by tax-avoiding millionaires, companies and bankers who already have a lifestyle well beyond their needs, and contribute little to the real, non-digital long forgotten base of our economy, but who's pay only reflects their power over the money supply.
  • Why don't you go and live in the US and see the stark difference there, I am sure you might think differently fairly quickly. I pay taxes so you can be treated cheaply at the local hospital, I pay taxes so you can use the road system, the rail system, that if you decide to have children, you will have free education, health, glasses etc. I pay taxes so that people like you don't get robbed in the street, burgled continually, killed, I pay taxes so that another nation doesn't come in and invade us, I pay taxes for many things that you might use that I do not but I do not complain. Its people like you, the "me, me and me" brigade that have driven this country to the dogs, are you telling me your parents never used the welfare state? They never had milk at school or free glasses and medical treatment, that was all paid for by other people who didn't say anything, their reward is selfish cretins like you who want to throw it all back in their faces. Perhaps you are right, perhaps the money could have been spent better elsewhere, possibly on a vasectomy for your father and saved Britain from another self centred Daily Mail reader.
  • It is a dicey and tricky path to walk and there is something what people could say in a lone elderly tenant in a three bedroom house living there at cut price rent but are we that heartless, that brutal that we would sit there and chuck out said elderly tenant into a one bed flat in a block somewhere, the trauma alone could shorten their lives, as I said it is a tricky path to walk. But the welfare state, that which was paid for by generations past, pioneered by such in the instance of social housing as Joseph Rowntree, we were assured everyone would have a place to live, food in our cupboards, the basics of living, what we are seeing is that this government is intent on plundering the withering body of the welfare state for its own ends and it does not have the right to do this, the choice was made decades ago by far seeing British people and politicians, by people that would not see the benefit of this unique situation unmatched by any other nation, the British people were guaranteed the basic modicum of life that other countries were envious of and now we are losing it. The governments had no right to flog off our hospitals and schools into PFI, to create a massive housing shortfall, the decision should have been with the people, not bloody politicians on the take.
  • Nobody is happy paying rent for a house that is not their own. but, their is a sad but evident fact that might have escaped your notice. Not everybody can afford to buy a house. And the reason is not that they won't work, it is tha`t they have too many other things to spend their money on. Like school uniforms. Astronomical food prices. Taxes, (Because we cant afford to hire a tax lawyer). Bus fares. Etc Etc. etc. to group all council house tenants as scroungers is not only stupid it is unfair, My parents and grandparents lived in council houses, and they were very happy, because they could remember the slums that existed in Victorian days. read some history. the diseases and the illnesses from the jerry built sheds that the Victorian builders put up. If the money that was made from the sale of council houses had ben re-invested in new council houses there would not have been the housing problems that exist today. Con-men twist facts to prove black's white, but the evidence is there, if you can't afford to buy a house, live in a slum!!!
  • cooperative5
    There is no need for the state to own housing and all that goes with it. They will still need to give financial help to those who need it
  • jen10cc
    Since when are we not allowed to have an opinion against the grain anymore? Is that not what democracy is for? I'm not discriminating in anyway,
  • jen10cc
    How is swearing at me in anyway adult? I am entitled to an opinion. I listened to yours so why can't you listen to mine without cursing?
  • jen10cc
    It's not bigoted to have an opinion. It's bigoted to refuse to listen to someone else's though.
  • jen10cc
    well you're an angry person. Does your mam not love you?
  • george_spiggott
    Complete rubbish I live in a council flat and the rent charged by private landlords in my town is only �10-�15 more than my council rent per week for a similar flat, more I agree but not as vast a discrepancy as you suggest.
  • Arthur_Mee
    You IDIOT.
  • gyp
    you show a quaint trust in the 'fairness' of means testing!
  • gyp
    of course it does - think hotel management, think (as i did) student hostel wardening, think private housekeeping for the filthy rich, think care home supervision, think 'buddying' for a disabled young adult... THINK!!; ( of course few of them may be the jobs of your dreams, but when needs must and a positive attitude and a long term goal?)
  • gyp
    its not a tricky path at all if you ditch false sentimentality- surely the needs of children MUST come before the needs of the elderly; so surely its not all that bad to rehome an elderly person in order to free up a desperately needed home for a family with children?; we are in danger of falsely putting the elderly on a pedestal, perhaps out of a national guilty conscience and/or fear of our own old age to come?; i bet that a lot of elderly re-homeable council tenants would be glad to still be of some service to society if they were not encouraged to act like demanding non-contributors, doomed to die as nothing but selfish consumers
  • mike_espana
    I don't but I have friends that do and they are very happy paying rent to a private landlord at the market rates. That's the issue, "MARKET RATES" should be paid for council owned property as well as private property as long as protection is built in (it is). Taken to the extreme, we could see one of these families with 10 kids living free in a 6 bed room mansion paying nothing and provided they actually stop procreating long enough, 30 years later only 2 people could be living in a mansion for nothing. That's wrong and the tax payer shouldn't pay for it.
  • cooperative5
    Social housing is for those who cannot (or say they cannot) afford to otherwise rent or buy. Circumstances change for the better and they should then no longer be eligible and have to move. OTHERWISE JUST GIVE EVERYONE A HOUSE AND MAINTAIN IT FOR THEM!
  • george_spiggott
    Virtually everyone would agree that those who constantly refuse work and bogus benefit claimants are a drain on resources but how do you expect people to get jobs if there are say 10 or 20 people applying for every unskilled vacancy.
  • gjd2588
    Your tax money goes to support the Welfare State that will catch you if/when you are ill, become disabled, or need help to educate your children. I have no problem with my tax money being spent in this way. Pray to whatever God you believe in that you will never contract Alzheimer's,or you never have a child with Special Needs.Failing that, move to Texas, as suggested,and then pray that you can afford the health insurance.
  • george_spiggott
    Go and live in Texas if it bothers you so much I am sure you won't be missed much here.
  • mactang
    Uh, yeah, dont know how to tell you this mate but, you dont seem to have heard. Unfortunately a big chunk of your tax money is currently being spent on bonus bonanza payments to the 'needy-rich' of the banking underclass.
  • In his black and white blinkered viewpoint of the world, I imagine he would advocate people with children on the dole too long to kill them off and if they remained on benefits for too long, to kill themselves off as well. Of course people of his ilk have never tasted the hardships of life, has not been there yet where he has been laid off and suddenly found himself in a financial quagmire, probably lives in a high employment centre such as London where work is easy to find and not thought for a moment rural areas where every job is like gold dust and has hundreds applying for it. Well to quote the old chinese curse and proverb... may he live in interesting times, he might think again once he has walked a mile in the shoes of the unemployed, the homeless, the redundant and the disabled, I imagine he will scream the loudest and the highest for his share of what he thinks is due.
  • I know many will be sympathetic to your point of view but I am so glad many do not. Many of those tax pounds you seem to think are being wasted on scroungers are for people who, without fault of their own, were laid off in the recession. The stress this has caused adds to the list of sick and disabled. Then there are couples who planned families when they were in work, only to find themselves unemployed and unable to afford the home they were saving for. All these people need and deserve our support. I realise there are people that if you look on the surface seem to be just scroungers, but most are not and that is why I dislike people who think the way you do. It is so selfish and uncharitable.
  • Jen10cc at 21 years old, hopefully you will have many years yet to live. In this troubled world in which we now live, I wonder if in, say, 20 years time you will still be voicing such bigoted views.
  • george_spiggott
    When I was a kid [in the seventies] there was no stigma about council housing and many fairly "Middle Class" people lived in them.
  • This just illustrates how Darwinian our society has become. The Government has used vast sums of public money to subsidise the least vulnerable elements of our society during the financial meltdown and now requires that the most vulnerable elements stand on their own two feet in order to pay for the bail out. The consequences will not stop here since there are predictions of a 20-30% drop in home values which will ensure that those who have not benefited from social housing can enjoy suffering too.
  • cooperative5
    If you can't move people in and out of social housing it is far better to sell these permanent homes to the "owners", get some money back into the public purse and lose the responsibility for having to maintain them.
  • cooperative5
    " the decision should have been with the people". It's called democracy to elect politicians to do for us those things which often we don't understand (or want to understand)
  • george_spiggott
    I agree had they re-invested in more social housing this would have made a huge difference.
  • You are my hero Andy!
  • snotcricket
    Perhaps the government should understand that long term tenants tend to show far more care for their home/property & often invest money they are not required to but do so for their quality of life or similar. Many private landlords regard long term tenants highly, indeed some even make allowances in the rent etc as the longevity added to the care of the property is a premium in itself. Mind we shouldn't be too surpised we're talking politician etc, etc - I wouldn't rule out the politico will at sometime in the future create legislation for the 'Education of Pork' in the hope such teachings may rub off on themselves.
  • jen10cc
    Why can people not see that if they do not earn something they can not have it. I am a working class 21 year old and ask for nothing. I see my tax money paying for a never ending dole queue of people who think that the work available is 'below them.' You don't get something for nothing. People who work and do not have children do not so why should the unemployed and child laden? I appreciate people make mistakes but I don't want to pay for them. The NHS is dire as is the police force, public transport and most front-line public services. So where does my tax money go? Subsidized acomodation for the 'needy,' unemployment benefits and disability allowance by the looks of things. It's a disgrace. If you can not support yourself and your family it's on you, not me or any other tax payer that is fed up for paying for other people's 'misfortune.'
  • nanook_northpole
    What's the surprise ? Private home owners get graffiti off their fences quick smart. And they mow their 'council' lawn strips for free.
  • gyp
    'Clearly it's unfair for families to be faced with selling much-loved homes after 20 years or more just to pay death duties' or, it should be added, just to pay granny's residential care home bills? Come on, there's nothing fair about fair for grownups, and there's nothing more to having a house to live in and love than just that - the problem starts when a house is turned into a long term investment opportunity for you and yours down the ages; if social housing was termed what it rightly is, ie publicly subsidised housing, freeing-up larger houses to help larger families would seem to be a perfectly logical and publicly spirited move without moaning and groaning about loss of beloved family homes - after all, huge numbers of people move houses, be they tied, council, public or private, owned or rented, regularly with their jobs - i've lived in 21 so far, and dont feel at all hard done by, and still love and cherish my present home dearly - while happily knowing that it will be somebody else's, not necessarily anybody sharing any of my genes, once i die. capitalistic claims to ownership of property only really works for the very very rich and very very socially challenged - its quite irrelevant to the whole concept of publicly subsidised housing!
  • inglouriouseurotrash
    I guess you don't live in a rented property in sunny Spain, Mike?
  • inglouriouseurotrash
    Good for you, Jen. Say what you think and keep saying it.
  • inglouriouseurotrash
    No, if anyone's a git, it's you. Jen gives her opinion, you don't agree with it, so she's a git? Why should she go to the Telegraph website? Is the Independent some kind of little box where everyone must think the same? She is not an "idiot" for stating her opinion (if she ever did) on the armed forces. Did she insult you personally? Only idiots and gits descend to that.
  • You are the same idiot who called our armed forces men and women 'murderers' elsewhere on the this very site. Why don't you go to the Telegraph website? Lots of people like you there. I believe they are called the Tory Party. Git.
  • dontalk2her
    Remember that the Tories flogged off all the best council houses for pittances and allowed the lucky new home owners to pocket the profits. Nepotism, bribery and general dishonesty in the letting of council and housing association properties is rife. Many live in handsome homes with gardens back and front (to which they were never entitled in the first place) simply because they "knew" someone. In addition, we have a crazy housing benefit system that condemns some to live in small, cheap slums in dead-end dumps and other fortunates to occupy beautiful houses in London. We house people with too many children at huge expense without ever daring to suggest they limit family size.
  • gjd2588
    So what does someone do if they can't afford a house in Australia? Where do all the care home workers, shop assistants and nurses live? Or are houses astonishingly cheap in Oz?
  • gjd2588
    I misread your post, and thought you were suggesting that the present Government were going to propose Contraception Camps. I suppose that would keep the proles in their place! I know a Daily Mail reader who genuinely believes that a person should pass a written exam before being allowed to breed. I
  • gjd2588
    I moved every six months when I was a tenant. When I married, and we had our first child, we bought. You could then. You have my sympathies (not that it helps).
  • jen10cc
    I always thought charity was done out of choice? I do not CHOSE for my tax money to be spent in a way I never see. The above comment adds nothing to the debate and is actually really childish.
  • gjd2588
    That's what I thought. I'm no cosmopolitan traveller, but the bits of France I have visited included a lot of houses that looked life a French version of the British 50s Council House. They certainly didn't look like they had been built individually. Some parts of the larger towns include those Le Corbusier style "machines for living. The French suburbs are notoriously deprived and run down. Perhaps thierrytt would care to cite his sources, as I am quite happy to be corrected!
  • gjd2588
    The landlord has to buy, maintain and service the property to a legally enforceable standard. A �135000 mortgage (price for a 3 bed ex council house round my way) would cost �675 a month at 3.5% APR. What's the rent on a 3 bed council house? You are right to point out that working in a care home is an important job. Don't assume that the better qualified and better paid are not working just as hard as you are.
  • gjd2588
    Look in your local paper. Find the property pages and look for a house similar in size to the one you rent from your council. Note the rent being charged by the private landlord, and compare it to your own rent. Then breathe a sigh of relief that you are being supported by the great British taxpayer,and try not to make any more unsubstantiated and unsuppportable comments.
  • george_spiggott
    I don't like my tax money being spent on Trident or the Royal family but I don't have a choice about that either.
  • gjd2588
    Until Mrs Thatcher made it possible to buy the council owned house a tenant had rented (with a subsidy), that is. Once the legislation was through, houses all over the estate I lived on sprouted porches and pebble-dash. "Look at my wad" was meant to be ironic, but I saw it for real.
  • br_ni
    Mrs Thatcher didn't allow people to buy council houses, they could always be bought by their tenants, at the MARKET rate - what so did was introduce 'discounts' so they could be bought cheap.
  • jen10cc
    Please don't patronize me. I am entitled to an opinion as much as anyone else and I think you'll find a fair few people share my opinion.
  • Flacksteen
    1 in 6 is not 20% it is 17%. That said you need to distinguish between the different sorts of mobile and prefabricated homes used in the USA. Some of them are barely recognisable as mobile, and their occupants prefer them for two reasons: (1) if they move jobs 9commoner in the Us than in the UK) they can move home more cheaply than selling a house and buying another (2) retirees often prefer some sort of mobile home as it enables them to move around the country and experience different parts of a country that has twice the land area of the entire EU. While "trailer parks" carry a certain stigma they are not all low class by any means. Although there is tremendous concentration of wealth in the USA, it is also true that living standards for most people are higher than they are in the UK. And there is greater social mobility. This is not as simple as you make out.
  • Robert459
    All I know is .... While most understand the housing market (and all credit to them) few understand people. My dad has only ever lived in council housing, and has been in his current home for over for over 50 years, which he has spent good money on and kept it like a palace. He's never had the slightest interest in owning his own home, or having the responsibility of maintaining it, or getting done up like a kipper with lengthy, eye watering mortgage repayments. He was a bricklayer, a very good one, who worked every day of his life, travelling far and wide working on peoples houses, and saw enough of the curtain twitching and neighbour disputes over inches of land and other mind-numbingly petty concerns. He wanted none of it. And he was happy to tolerate a downgraded environment, courtesy of some of the scumbags the council insisted on moving in amongst proper human beings, rather than be soiled by the iniquitous and obscene scheming or the private rental or ownership market. He's a simple soul, honest as the days long, never harmed or annoyed anyone, a good person and a complete innocent, ludicrously so. The main thing though is that he LOVES his council flat for reasons that have nothing to do with money, and doesn't want to live anywhere else in the world. And what I say is, good luck to him, and everyone else can f**k off.
  • Well, maybe you, like I have done, can write to Grant Shapps and tell him how you feel about this proposed policy and then perhaps it will force him to look at things differently. His website is www.shapps.com
  • another_council_tenancy
    WANKER
  • stellaky
    Peter, are you aware that this is The Independent and not The Daily Mail? Your comments are ill-informed and offensive. Fleece your pocket? Most council houses have been paid for 100 times over in rent over the years so I think you should get this "subsidy" idea out of your head. You sound unhappy and jealous. What's wrong with social housing? Why should everyone feel coerced into home ownership? Furthermore, what do you know about Classwarrior? He could very well pay more taxes than you.
  • clemmati
    "Home ownership in france is higher than the Uk" It's significantly lower.
  • spiritofxxx
    For a moment I thought that I was on CiF in the Guardian, then I realised that the Israelis were not being blamed. Silly me. Oh! I forgot Gordon Brown had saved the world.
  • HebdenBiker
    Jesus - talk about a chip on your shoulder. As for your low-paid job, unlucky. You should have worked harder at school.
  • spiritofxxx
    One can understand the concerns of people who rent on short leases, most commercial property is on much longer leases but subject to rent reviews throughout the period. Surely a similar scheme could be introduced for housing. The one exception would be houses where people say work abroad, have to move for their job. Most BTL properties would not be included. Perhaps either a local authority or housing association could be allowed short tem leases where the tenant could be offered another property. A final situation would be where landlord offers short term lets but with a long term committment to provide housing. This would mean say a 15 year lease but just 12 months guaranteed in a particular property. The downside is that the tenant would be tied into the lease with a considerable penalty for default.
  • HebdenBiker
    "could that be done these days?" No. Because "a reasonably well paid, live-in, all-expenses-met-for-both-of-us job" doesn't exist any more.
  • When there is a housing shortage it is wrong for people to live in publicly funded (or subsidised) houses that are too large for their needs. Old people who own their own houses are not let off the hook either, contrary to what Joan Smith says. Because the government is ever more keen to lower the threshold over which they have to pay for their care in old age. In fact this article is very one-sided.
  • Generally I find someone to be a bellend,( racist,homophobic,misogynistic lacking in empathy for the less fortunate) and then they say "oh of course I vote Tory. There are labour,libdem,ukip etc examples with these characteristics......but Tories are seem to be most prevalent.
  • Guest
    I have no idea if my council house rent is subsidised the local council sets the rent annually and myself and neighbours just pay it if it is subsidised it is not my problem, why not try to force private landlords to bring down their rent to our levels? Secondly why should people like myself and my neighbours be encouraged/forced to buy a house [I can't afford]. I am not a snob and to me the biggest reason people buy houses is to go down the pub and brag to everyone how much their house is worth and how this makes them better than people with cheaper houses and virtually a whole species above people who live in council houses. No doubt Peter you are one of these people and I have no wish to emulate your "Success"
  • drdougal
    selling council houses was one of the few good policies of thatcher, but barring councils from using the proceeds to reinvest in more social housing thus keeping property inflation down and giving people on low incomes the chance to buy homes, not just then but to this day is one of her most unforgivable,short sighted,ideologically driven mistakes of her regime.
  • I wouldn't want the UK to wind up like the USA, no. That is why I said that the prices need to go up and that money spent on more housing. Indeed it is the only way I can see enough housing for vulnerable people being built. The system as is, does nothing to provide any incentive or resources to provide provision for the future. When people start making good money, and could fend for themselves do they move out of the subsidised and much needed social housing to make way for others? Why should they, currently if they pay their rents they can stay forever. Maybe I didn't explain myself very well.
  • Guest
    "Property owning elite" I like that very appropriate.
  • Guest
    Bring private let housing rent down to council house rent levels by legislation then the parasites who make their money letting shoddy flats to poor people at inflated prices will take the hit and not people like me [�6 per hour wage] or the taxpayer who pays housing benefit to those on the dole. I am not fleecing your pockets I work pay tax and rent, what exactly do you do for a living I bet you are an overpaid tosser who ponces about an office for forty grand a year I work in a care home fancy swapping jobs for a week, no doubt British Industry would collapse without hard working heroes like you manning their computers like Spitfire Pilots for a few hours a day.
  • Guest
    Couldn't agree more people were happier when a house was a home and not that ridiculous term "Property"
  • george_spiggott
    Selling council houses has proved to be a huge mistake.
  • mactang
    Ha! Feel sorry for him now. He was near vinegar-stroke at the height of his dogmatic rant there. Then vicious 'sarah' had to belt him one with boring fact.
  • Forlornehope
    Doh! That was tried back in the 60's and 70's and what happened? Private rented accommodation disappeared from the market. If you didn't have a pall who was in the housing department or have the money to buy you were stuck in a bedsit or living with mum and dad. Socialism is about supporting those in need, not subsidising people who can and should provide for themselves. Too many people seem to see socialism as a gravy train for their personal benefit.
  • The Social housing market is a mess. Has been for years. Why should people expect to live in subsidised property their entire lives whilst others have to make shift in the open market? These properties should be there for people in distress and for short terms, not for the selected few to inherit? Having two separate housing markets, social housing and open market housing, is neither fair nor sustainable. Putting the social housing rents up in many small stages (say 5% pa until market rents attained) would not only provide the resources to build the desparately required new housing, but also pull down the open market rents. Giving out long term (say 5,10 and 15years) contracts would provide the security that people want, and eventually encourage open market housing contracts to do the same. So encourage people to move out when they can make shift for themselves or their families have moved on, yes please.
  • mrmarkreed
    The Dome was commissioned by Major in 1997 when it was apparent they were likely to go out and thus set up a project fraught with failure. More than once I heard someone working on the Dome say something like "The Tories wanted to hand Labout a white elephant they couldn't get rid of to embarass them". And on the basis of what you have said, it worked. For the aircraft carriers, it is well known that MOD projects are normally an enormous waste of money, and the failure of the carriers is not specific to the Labour government but many MOD projects.
  • nonsheep
    What utter crap! My father has been a council tennant for 60 years, downsized to a one bedroom bungalow when we all left home. My inlaws too, for the same period, and both my sons. If anyone that rents, private or council, loses their job, they can get assistance. I am buying my house, if I find myself out of work, I get no assistance and will become homeless. Joan Smith, in her little silver spoon existance, has not a clue what she is talking about.
  • JohnBloom
    The destruction of public housing as a normal well-balanced part of the community and its vilification as the last resort only of the desperate has had appalling results. I grew up in a council house and although since leaving university I have always owned owned my own home, I feel no shame about where I grew up. But that was in the 1960s when council housing was the home of many ordinary people who were prosperous (by the standards of the time). Economically we would be better off if we followed the example of Singapore where 80% of housing is publicly owned. If you move the hard-working and diligent away from neighbourhoods, you should not be surprised if the neighbourhood over time declines.
  • gyp
    its not!; nor is it hers...
  • gyp
    if you really want to build and conserve real 'communities' forget about houses all in row with lonely people stuck inside watching telly ; just scrap the real culprit in the loss of anything remotely like a 'community', the source of all social isolation: the bloody private motorcar...
  • If you live in the privately-rented sector, you can be booted out of your 'home' (sorry, serf's accomodation) for no reason at all with two month's notice, and no chance of appeal. I'm 37, and am stuck in the rent trap having graduated fifteen years ago, and have had to move house nine times since then due to Landlords wanting to sell up, move their kids in etc. etc. People often come up with the old saw of renting being the norm on the continent, however rental contracts in Germany and France typically last for 10-15 years, tenants can keep pets and decorate, and can also appeal should the landlord want to repossess. Renting would be a viable option in the UK were longer-term rental contracts available, giving more security of tenuire. As it is I find myself waking up every morning wondering if 'that letter' from the Landlord will be landing on my doormat. Not good for the nerves. Edit: before I get flamed by members of the property-owning elite for having a 'sense of entitlement' or whatever, I'll add that my rent is currently less than an interest-only mortgage for a first-time bbuyer, and so I'm currently using the opportunity to save the �30k neceessary for a deposit on a 1-bedroom flat in my area. It is, however, difficult to plan such a thing when one can be unceremoniously kicked out.
  • gliffothewisp
    Yet another whizzo scheme to give the lower orders the good slap about that this govt. believes they so richly deserve - simply because that's what you do to the lower orders to keep them in their place. After all, if you didn't make life jolly uncomfortable, they'd never get out of their beds in the morning - and then who would do all the lower order type jobs? I agree that there does have to be a sort-out of the 'private' rental housing market - long-term contracts would be a start. Funding councils to take on the increasing number of Rachman-type landlords, compulsory purchase of houses lying empty for years and insisting that private landlords take steps against their antisocial tenants are a few more ideas. They won't happen, though, as they would effect the people who support this govt. Easier to take out your class spleen on working people.
  • gyp
    in my youth it seemed to me to be 'fair' that while i got a start in adult life with a scholarship to go to university, others got tenancy of a council house; it was up to me to make my own arrangements for home and shelter, but this proved difficult when i became an unsupported single mum ( no loans for single women without a man's signature in those golden days - and few council house tenancies); so i took a reasonably well paid, live-in, all-expenses-met-for-both-of-us job which i managed to survive for 3 years - and saved enough to buy a modest little flat of my very own; could that be done these days?
  • JohnBloom
    Brian, many thanks. I did read or hear somewhere that in some parts of the US South-West i.e Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Oklahoma, Utah, and Nevada around 35% of homes are "on wheels or blocks" (i.e what we would call caravans or portacabins) but I don't recall the source. It's such a big country that there are bound to be large regional variations.
  • gyp
    i'm disabled by sloth - i need to save energy and so avoid the caps key
  • It is called Support for Mortgage Interest and they need to be claiming Jobseeker's Allowance. If they're about to be repossessed I'm incredibly surprised they haven't sought the advice of an agency that would be aware of this (either the jobcentre or debt advice from CAB).
  • Classwarrior you live in a sheltered bubble, paid for by the very workers you profess to support. In a world where resources have to be paid for, your rent is indeed subsidised by the rest of us tax and rate payers. Bringing every rent up to the market rates will bring the average rent down. Are you afraid of paying your own way, or does your "class" deserve a ride on the backs of hard working people. I dont care if you want to own a property or not, i dont. But why are you so convinced that you can fleece my pocket for your easy living? Oh yes of course, you're a classwarrior - an archaic left-over of a bygone era.
  • A study published in 2004 stated "according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates, nearly one in six homes in nonmetro areas of the United States are mobile homes, compared with 8 percent nationwide and 6 percent in metro areas" It also stated that it was the fastest growing form of housing in the US. 7 years on and after the sub-prime crash I am sure these figures are higher. Your 20% estimate may be correct for non-metropolitan areas.
  • mike_espana
    Private or public rental property, its no different. Market forces make private renters move according to their means and this is no different. Just because you live in a property for 30 years and may paint and paper it, unless you are paying off the capital cost of that poperty over that period it does NOT belong to you. There are regulations that prevent exhorbiotant rents being charged but whether its a interest only mortgage, a private or public rental property, you have NO vested financial interest in the property. Wake up and smell the coffee !
  • toryglen
    This is wrong "make up the shortfall in rent from their own resources". All benefits (except DLA) are MEANS TESTED. At it stands Housing Benefit is calculated on income and savings and set accordingly. If a claimant can make up the shortfall themselves then the DWP red flags this as an undeclared revenue stream. So if the tenant puts say an extra �20 to there rent themselves then there Housing Benefit is recalculated to take into account the extra �20 ie minus �20 and a criminal fraud case may follow. THE FACTS ARE THAT IF YOU CAN MAKE UP THE SHORTFALL YOU WILL BE INVESTIGATED.
  • And789
    That is just rubbish. Where did you hear nonsense such as that? Please can you point me in the direction of the scheme because I have family and friends out of work and their homes are under threat of re-possession because they can't meet their mortgages any more. And when you have furnished me with details I'll pass them on so that they can save their homes for the next two years. The scheme doesn't exist. It never has and never will. If you are out of work and lose your job, then, if you cannot pay your mortgage you lose your home. That is a fact.
  • fatty_mac
    People used to live in houses - now they live in 'properties' Some people don't see their homes as pieces on a Monopoly board, they didn't want to play the 'housing ladder' game when the market was soaring - why should they have to pay the inflated rents that are now a consequence. Also if Housing Associations are to be compelled to charge rents that correspond to the private equivalent, since most people in Housing Associations receive housing benefit, the total housing benefit bill is going to go through the roof. Government policy needs a bit of 'joined-up thinking'.
  • And789
    Unless at a political meeting I'm unlikely to know of a person's political leanings when I first meet them. But I can usually tell, when a person starts speaking in a derogatory way about race, people on benefits, immigration etc, that when I ask them which way they vote, it will be Conservative. I'm not saying all socialists are nice people, but on the whole, in a general sense, they are usually more empathic when it comes to dealing with people who are down on their luck, struggling or in need of help.
  • nanook_northpole
    They sell some new UK style party-wall 'houses' in Australia - they're called Townhouses & sell at a substantial discount to regular free-standing houses on big blocks which, for some strange reason, remain extremely popular. And Australia's pop. is mostly urban - my Sydney Broadband goes fine at 298 Mbps download tested speed. Alas, I'll just have to put up with it all.
  • Absolute nonsense. If you are a mortgage holder and you lose your job you get two years (or more!) of mortgage interest paid for you by the government.
  • Robert459
    Then I'm dismayed to hear that. But I wonder perhaps if you're mind is already made up before you meet Tories. It would tend to put you at a disadvantage in seeing the whole person, rather than just the bits you prefer to see.
  • have a look at the daily mail and see if your bile makes sense...
  • whosaysso
    Trailer parks indeed. I already see retirees being priced out of their privately rented flats into caravans. It was worrying in the recent cold snap to think of them in such flimsy shelters. A whole life of working as a single person, a local government pension, and insufficient to pay a rent on a flat, run a car etc etc...
  • And789
    In my fifty odd years on this planet, I have yet to meet a 'nice' Tory. They really are the nasty party. Driven by money and materialism.
  • JohnBloom
    @clandulla, under the American model of how to run a country, the top 1% of the population control around 50% of total wealth and the bottom 90% about 10%. (This is published data). The 9% of American people "in the middle" (i.e just under the top 1%) have the other 40% of wealth. In other words, 10% of American society controls 90% of the wealth. Those in the bottom two deciles (i.e the lowest 20%) own next to nothing. 2.5 million are actually homeless and 8.5 million live in temporary accommodation of one sort or another. The actual number living in trailer parks isn't recorded as far as I know and, I confess, my estimate of 20% is largely based on what I have seen for myself particularly away from the major cities. In the US published data shows that the trend to concentration of wealth has actually accelerated in the last 30 years since the trickle-down theory behind Reaganomics become conventional wisdom with the result that the poorer sections of society have actually become poorer both relatively and in absolute terms. Trickle-down theory has led in practice to wealth moving upwards into fewer hands. You are quite right that access to good education and health care (including nutrition) are prerequisites for effectively improving the lives of the poorest. I came from a very poor background and benefited from these things myself. I am appalled by the cheapening of working class culture that has taken place in the last few decades and the ghettoisation of working class living conditions. You and I agree on much.
  • Without the long-term tenants, who will provide stability on council estates? Probably as many as 25% of our neighbours who rent through the local authority are over 65 and could be affected by this, although unless the council come up with a lot of bungalows very quickly, I fail to see how. Forcing this many elderly people arbitrarily from their homes is what might be expected from totalitarian regimes, and its introduction in Britain is frightening. How many individual steps like this will it take for Clegg and Cameron to reach the excesses of segregation or ethnic cleansing?
  • Robert459
    No, the Tories don't understand anything. And Blacks are all lawless, Christians are all bigoted, Muslims are all terrorists, the Americans are evil, the Swedes are fascists, OAPs are a nuisance, there's never a taxi when you want one ...... Get it yet?
  • nonsheep
    I sympathise with you, I privately rented for seven years, moved seven times.
  • wotevah
    'Holistic thinking'? The only dimension Tories work in is Profit & Loss. Everything other than money, and making as much of it as possible, few questions asked, is for light-weights and namby-pamby pinko trouble-making scum. Don't expect holistic thinking from this Government; it's sole focus is forcing us all to be hard-nosed, red-in-tooth-and-claw acquisitive capitalists, just like them.
  • Bicknoller
    This is a typical Socialist response. Full of bile but devoid of reason.
  • trader7444
    can you distinguish the Tories and their actions while in office from the Labour Party administration in power for thirteen years What on earth gives you the idea that Blair and co were socialists
  • The Australian government is involved. Each state provides Public Housing but in a rather ineffective way that does not address the need for housing. Those who are excluded from the privilege to obtain a mortgage are forced into the private rental market. The government's ineffectiveness produces a market for wealthy capital holders to exploit for profit. This is what the Tories want to expand here.
  • Forlornehope
    That the state should ensure that people have access to decent accommodation appropriate to their needs is a civilised principle that should be defended. That this should extend to the provision of life-long tenancy rights is an emotional response growing out of a rather pathetic sense of entitlement. Civilised levels of services and benefits should be defended. These kind of feudal expectations simply undermine sensible arguments.
  • thierrytt
    I understand clandulla's point. Britain made a fatal error after 45 . The french and other european countries put their efforts into enabling people to build their own homes. Land was sold cheaply , plans were given and sufficient aid so that even those on a minimum wage could afford to build their own homes.Home ownership in france is higher than the Uk and in most french towns you will see homes built to the same or similar plan. Funnily the belgians used the same prefabricated council houses you see in the UK but sold them to families to construct themselves. The number of "social homes" needed would have been significantly less and have been targetted on the most needy .
  • Bicknoller
    I own my three bedroomed house after paying a mortgage for thirty years. I am neither rich nor socially challenged, but I do know how and where to use capital letters.
  • clandulla
    No matter how "banal and ugly" you may think Australian housing, at least the government is not involved. Let's face it, nothing is more banal and ugly than the heavy hoof of official bureaucracy. Just one other point - we abolished that disgustingly iniquitous government theft called 'inheritance tax' in Australia more than 30 years ago so there is another incentive for people to own and improve their homes.
  • The Australian private house is no model to copy. Not just banal and ugly, but the isolation caused by suburbia is a real bore especially since its low density makes public transport expensive or impossible so everyone needs to rely on owning a private car which is incredibly unsustainable and polluting. The carbon footprint of this way of living is massive when you also consider the land clearing needed to make a suburb and all its infrastructure. Australian's are always moaning about their poor quality broadband. This is the result of living in low density. I am glad Britain has diverse housing types and social housing is a superior model that should be improved upon.
  • milesbatch
    I wonder how far down the line the Tories will moot the idea of concentration camps to deal with all the displaced plebs?
  • clandulla
    John, "almost 20% of the American population" is around 60 million people. I don't think that many people live in trailer parks in the US although I have no reliable statistics to refute your statement. I acknowledge the variable quality of housing is a marker for social inequality but social inequality is, in turn, a fact of life in all societies. The generally poor quality and appearance of public housing in Britain certainly does nothing to disguise the existence of social inequality. Social inequality is best attacked by providing equal opportunity and access to good education and health services in the formative years. Britain has been signally incompetent in this regard with international comparisons showing British standards of literacy and numeracy in continuous decline (this is also true of the USA). If the British are either incapable or unwilling to address the decline in their educational standards to counter social inequality, then providing yet another barely employable Brit with a government-funded home is little more than a visible token confirming the failure of both the individual and the system.
  • DeclanAhern
    When is a garage not a garage? When it is an office!
  • stereostan
    ah, the beauty of the American Trailer Park.
  • clandulla
    What I find quite extraordinary as someone who has spent most of my life in Australia and the US is why anybody, other than the most seriously disadvantaged and vulnerable, would think it is any business of their government to provide them with housing. When I see these swathes of graffiti-daubed, pebble-dashed ugliness on my visits to Britain, they look to me more like cold-climate favelas rather than places where a substantial proportion of the population of a First World country live. I was under the impression the British government built houses in great numbers after WWII to compensate for wartime damage and destruction. WWII ended in 1945 so, two generations later and into the next century, what is the rationale for government still being involved in housing construction?
  • JohnBloom
    @clandulla, actually the garden suburb movement grew in the C19th under the influence of Ebenezer Howard and Robert Owen. It goes back well beyond WWII.

    It was a reaction to Dickensian housing conditions for the working class. I would have thought that the sight of the "trailer parks" where almost 20% of the American population live would have been enough to convince you that public housing is desirable.

    John
  • And789
    The Tories don't understand anything. The wealth and privilege with which they grow up stunts their imagination, their comprehension and their humanity. They are soulless beings. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • And789
    Perfectly put.
  • And789
    Bully for you.
  • Its only when people feel secure that they can properly move forward in their lives. A home is a basic human need and this policy will only cause uncertainty just at a time when we desperately need cohesion to move us out of this recession. When Thatcher changed council housing it broke up communities and I fear this is likely to do exactly the same thing, what little is left. We need more holistic thinking of the consequences to this policy from our government and perhaps then they will realise what a bad idea this will be.
  • wotevah
    Let's call a spade a spade here: the Tories have nothing but contempt for the poor and for... horror of horrors... people who are not owner-occupiers, and think that these people (who they barely view as people at all) are all lazy, good-for-nothing scroungers, who jolly well need to pull their socks up. It's the poor's fault if they live in perpetual insecurity according to the Tory mindset, because they lack moral fibre (as if Tories are moral, but that's a different topic...!). Cameron's nasty and spiteful Government might as well cry out "Let them eat cake!" � la Marie Antoinette where the proles are concerned.
  • thebnpwants2stealmypassport
    I have to admit that I rarely agree 100% with Joan, but she's spot on with this article. The government simply doesn't understand that council houses are homes. I have a sister and friends who still live in council accommodation and this strikes them hard - true they are (apparently) guaranteed tenure as long standing tenants, but there is the suspicion that this is the thin end of the wedge. Either an Englishman's home is his castle, or its not Peace & love

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