Fuel Injected G60

[Swerve]

What do you reckon is better ? TBI or MPI, Wouldnt MPI be better as if a injector stoped working you could limp home on the other 5 ? or just carry a few spare on the TBI ?

But the TBI would be easier to install and no need to tap new holes/ threads on the manifold.

I would have though I would get better performance with a MPI as the fuel is going direct (almost) into the clyinder) where as on a TBI some fuel is wasted on the dead end passages on the manifold ?

Steve

[Eddy]

MPI is better than single ... in the Falc ...

In a patrol, I really don't know. I think it should be.
Certainly a shitload easier...

At a guess, any advantage offered by mpi may well be offset by the inefficiency of the 2 cylinder from 1 port setup. Then again, it may not be any different.
I do know that the TBI would be heaps better than the carby

If ya can get the dual firing for the #1 & #4 injectors sorted you're laughing.
Have a chat to a Ford mech, or a auto sparky ... don't see why it wouldn't work though

[67l60]

all parts aside the TBI is decent for 100.000 k
the MPI is just as reliable butt will deffinitely require tons of fab work
also a independant fuel rail with 6xs more things to leak butt
id stick with whats available and try to find what will work for you
cheapest by looking on the local ebay
i assume you could do a complete tbi setup for under 225.00 plus the cost to fab work the adapters
the ford tbi is a little different then the chevy stuff
ps keep away from factory fuel pumps go after market
and i would start there first the fuel tank will need a little fab work to mount the fuel pump inside it then you need to attach a return line
most systems need at least 34 psi to function i would shoot for 50 psi
and use a factory regulator

[Swerve]

all parts aside the TBI is decent for 100.000 k
the MPI is just as reliable but will deffinitely require tons of fab work
also a independant fuel rail with 6xs more things to leak but
id stick with whats available and try to find what will work for you
cheapest by looking on the local ebay
i assume you could do a complete tbi setup for under 225.00 plus the cost to fab work the adapters
the ford tbi is a little different then the chevy stuff
ps keep away from factory fuel pumps go after market
and i would start there first the fuel tank will need a little fab work to mount the fuel pump inside it then you need to attach a return line
most systems need at least 34 psi to function i would shoot for 50 psi
and use a factory regulator

John,

You just amaze me with how much you know sometimes

To keep cost down will try and take all EFI parts and now fuel pump etc from the doner car.

The list keeps growing

Steve

[Eddy]

The list keeps growing

oh it does ... it does indeed!

[David_S]

I have just returned from a tuning run with a newly installed fuel injected P40 in my 1982 MQ. Went like a rocket.

[Swerve]

PM sent

Also Photos and performance

PLEASE

[Swerve]

Some helpful links

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=48391&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=95290&start=0

[Eddy]

I have just returned from a tuning run with a newly installed fuel injected P40 in my 1982 MQ. Went like a rocket.

righto dude!

pics or ban!!

[chimpboy]

Hi,

I would say that if you get an EA falcon, which will cost almost nothing complete, it will come surprisingly close to just bolting on. You want the single-point injection model, which I think has a "3.9" badge.

You'll just pull off the carby and put the ford throttle body injection on in the same place. You might be able to file some bolt holes oval, or you might have to make a small adaptor plate.

The fiddliest bit will be running a a second fuel line. Since you have (I think) a spare 60, you will probably be able to put your spare fuel line in next to the original one and it will look pretty close to factory. I can't remember if there's a suitable hole or fitting in the tank to connect the return line to but at worst you could tap into the plate that the fuel level sender is attached to (rather than drilling into the tank itself).

I definitely wouldn't bother with multipoint injection from an EF or whatever, it's far too complicated and just tapping the injectors into the inlet manifold is probably very far from optimal anyway.

Throttle body injection is really just like an electronic carby. Very simple and reliable and more than adequate for this engine. I think you'll find it performs better and is more economical, and if you do take it off-road it will work much better on slopes than the carby does.

In answer to someone's previous question, the distributor doesn't need to be connected at all, except maybe a signal wire to detect engine speed (can hook to the coil same as you'd connect a tacho).

As you know I've just converted the Stag to EFI and it was very, very worth it. Funny thing was I got all the EFI gear for $200, then sold the old holley four-barrel for $220. I don't think you'll get $220 for your G60 carby though

You could even find an EA on gas and go dual fuel at the same time

[Swerve]

Jason,

Thankyou so much for this as it also matches up with David_S who also used a TBI from a falcon. Why do you need a 2nd fuel line ? is that a breather back to the tank ?

Planning on getting a complete car so I can salvage everything I need.

Steve

[jonx4x4]

Does anyone know if the distributor also needs connecting to the EFI system ?

Steve
most EFI systems have some sort of timer either off the dizzy or off a seperate magnetic sensor !!
what evere you do make shure the fireing order is correct donor vehicle fireing order is same as the patrol 's
and all will work flawless thats the most important part shooting fuel at proper time , to the propper cylinder
also its best to remove from a running vehicle
so you can take timeing reading for future adjustment could be as much as 28deg before tdc depends on the system with the node bypassed
on a ford product you need a noide ligt and timeing light to check this

See, thats just it. TBI is batch fire. That means the injector(or injectors) fire every time the distributor fires. Sure, it doesnt bring too much more performance than a carb, but its the reliability and the lack of a float that turns me onto the system.

Im pretty sure I started a topic in the Modified Nissan Patrol forum. In there, I linked to a topic on I think it was Binder bulletin where a guy fuel injected his little IHC slant-4 off of a 4.3L's fuel injection system. One of the guys that did it before him used the 1bbl throttle body off of a Chevy 2.5L "Tech 4" in his system. He just wired up both signal wires to the one injector. He said it worked fine. Ive got an old 2.5L that I took out of my S-10 sitting in my carport with one of these throttle bodies. Lemme tell ya. It wouldnt take no effort at all to make it fit!

[David_S]

Here's my basic system as I sent to Swerve

TBI of Falcon EA (4L straight 6)
Megasquirt ecu and relay box (Google megasquirt)
LC-1 wideband oxygen controller (wideband O2 is essential for tuning)
Existing mechanical pump feeding a surge tank which in turn feeds a high pressure external pump to pressurise the injectors (2)
CLT sensor (coolant temp)
MAT sensor (manifold air temp)
TPS throttle position sensor (Part of Falcon tbi)
Fuel pressure regulator (Part of Falcon tbi)
Air filter box modified from one off a GQ diesel
RPM signal from coil

At present the megasquirt is set up to control fuel only but once I have it fully sussed I will control spark too with the megasquirt using input from my distributor (pertronix ignitor) with the vacuum and centrifugal advance locked down.

And yes the first test runs are impressive. Rocketed up a steep fire break on Sunday on all-terrain tyres where previously I ran out of oomph with the carb and struggled. A petrol FJ40 on mudgrips couldn't manage it - he died just where I used to struggle. And the P40 idles happily on a 45 deg slope. No more plug fouling when the carb floods.

Megasquirt is totally open source so you tune it to your engine with a laptop as you go down the road!

Some additional comments relating to previous posts.

1) My surge tank arrangement with external Bosch fuel pump appears to work well. I was not keen to monkey around with an in-tank pump and high pressure lines running the length of my truck. (If you look at the underneath of my truck you will see why!!) With my system I connect the existing LP line 3/4 the way up a cylindrical 2 litre tank with an outlet at the top which connects to the existing return line to the main tank. The HP pump is located under the surge tank and is fed from the bottom of the surge tank. The return line from the TBI feeds into the top of the surge tank.

2) The Falcon EA tbi is not a simple bolt on to the existing inlet manifold plate as I believe is possible with the GQ engine (not the P40). I bought a Falcon manifold along with the tbi unit. I cut off the plates from both manifolds and welded the Falcon plate to the Nissan manifold. Needed a fair bit of filing to get a smooth transition. Subsequently I made a 1" spacer to raise the tbi unit. This apparently moves the torque curve to the lower rpm end (good) but I did it mainly to make the air filter and throttle cable fit easier. I also fabricated an adapter so I could bolt my carb back on if I had an ecu failure in the back of beyond.

3) I wouldn't bother with rail injection and not sure anyway if it would work with 4 runners instead of 6. The tbi unit comes with the fuel pressure regulator built in plus the throttle position sensor (TPS) and a fast idle dc motor which I have hooked up as a hand throttle. Also, and importantly the tbi fuel pressure is only 15 psi compared to the 45+ for rail injection.

4) I wouldn't transplant the ecu from a Falcon or other donor. It is old technology and you can't tune it readily for your own engine. I have the technician notes for the Falcon units and it don't look simple to tune. Requires special equipment. Half the fun of my efi installation is being able to tune it on the road. Additionally the Falcon unit requires a signal from the Ford TFI distributor so you have to get one of these and graft it on to the shaft of your Nissan dizzy.

5) The megasquirt ecu is, in my opinion, by far the best unit for diy. 6 months ago I knew nothing at all about efi now I have a working system. There is a very active megasquirt forum where most of your software and hardware queries can be answered. You can buy fully assembled units or a kit for $US200. I got a kit and my son assembled it for me without difficulty. The megasquirt can control both fuel and spark. The software is free and open source so you can modify it as much as you like if you want to.

6) The two most difficult things I contended with were the air filter and the wiring.
a) The Falcon air filter was too large and standard Nissan boxes have round holes whereas the Falcon Tbi is oval. In the end I cut the bottom out of a GQ filter box and replaced it with an oval hole.

b) The wiring is not really difficult, but you have to be methodical, plan routes carefully and keep up to date drawings as you go. I used the Megasquirt relay board mounted in a weatherproof box on the firewall. All wires from sensors, injectors, ignition, 12V source terminate here. The relay board is then connected to the ecu which I have mounted in the glovebox. (I have had water round my feet and coming out the heater vents in river crossings but not yet in the glovebox!) There are around 20 wires connecting the relay board to the ecu which pass through the firewall. Also a vacuum tube (MAP) to connect to the inlet manifold. The megasquirt incorporates a MAP sensor.

7) A wideband oxgen sensor and controller is expensive but an absolute MUST for tuning. I use the LC-1 controller ($US200) which so far has worked well. They too have an excellent forum to help with installation and other problems. The wideband controller gives the actual AFR (air fuel ratio) whereas a narrow band just tells you whether the mixture is rich or lean relative to stoichometric (AFR of 14.7). With the wideband you can set up an AFR table in Megatune for every combination of rpm and MAP.

As for performance there has been a marked improvement. The engine revs very freely (would probably go to 6000rpm if I let it). There has been a definite power increase. The torque curve appears to have flattened so that it pulls hard between about 1200 and 3000 rpm. And best of all it does not flood on steep hills.

Will post some pictures in due course

David

[RMP&O]

First off....David big welcome to the forum.

That is awesome info on what you have done to the P40. We all know the P series of engines rock, in fact I think it is one thing we all agree is awesome in a Patrol. I have known for some time that any of the old Patrol motors are capable of putting out a lot more than stock with some love. In fact I am currently planning to modify my SD33 preaty heavily.

I would be careful reving the P40 though. It is not going to like anything over 4000rpms....I could give many examples of a blown P(40) from over reving. Hell there is one sitting out in my yard!

pictures please...send them to me or whatever. Or upload yourself to the gallery.

[chimpboy]

Jason,

Thankyou so much for this as it also matches up with David_S who also used a TBI from a falcon. Why do you need a 2nd fuel line ? is that a breather back to the tank ?

You need it because the injectors (or single injector) needs constant pressure.

The way that an EFI car maintains constant pressure is to send fuel to the motor at high pressure (with the fuel pump), and then release BACK enough fuel to drop the pressure down to a fixed pressure level, through a regulator.

This compensates for variations in fuel pressure from the pump, and means that the pump doesn't have to be very consistent at all. As long as the pump is providing more than 60psi (or whatever it is for a falcon), the regulator will just pull the pressure down to the correct level.

But to do this, it needs to be able to send that excess fuel back to the tank.

This will make sense once you start dismantling the donor vehicle.

4) I wouldn't transplant the ecu from a Falcon or other donor. It is old technology and you can't tune it readily for your own engine. I have the technician notes for the Falcon units and it don't look simple to tune. Requires special equipment. Half the fun of my efi installation is being able to tune it on the road. Additionally the Falcon unit requires a signal from the Ford TFI distributor so you have to get one of these and graft it on to the shaft of your Nissan dizzy.

I agree about the distributor (which I didn't realise needed to provide anything more than a normal tacho signal until now), but I don't think the tuning is much of an issue. The whole idea is that it really shouldn't need any tuning at all, the various sensors correct the fuel supply electronically depending on the emissions, temperature etc.

To me it would be 50:50, with the ford ECU you get the distributor modified by a professional and then you should be able to just plug everything together and run the motor, with the megasquirt you have to actually obtain a megasquirt unit for starters...

But I haven't done it and you have!

3) I wouldn't bother with rail injection and not sure anyway if it would work with 4 runners instead of 6. The tbi unit comes with the fuel pressure regulator built in plus the throttle position sensor (TPS) and a fast idle dc motor which I have hooked up as a hand throttle. Also, and importantly the tbi fuel pressure is only 15 psi compared to the 45+ for rail injection.

Well there you go, I didn't know that either, so my explanation of the fuel pressure above is off-base for this setup. Does this mean you don't need any fuel return line?

[David_S]

Here is my first attempt at uploading a picture. I will add more as I have the time. This shows the completed (well almost) installation. I have yet to seal the various cable outlets and to connect the GQ filter to the cyclone filter, but you can see the corrugated tubing for this - a bit fatter than the standard Nissan one.

This installation includes a set of extractors I had made locally. The original Nissan CI exhaust manifold had warped in the vertical plane so much that it had sheared one of the end studs and was no longer sealing properly which plaayed havoc with my sensor readings.




And yes this is a Left Hand drive truck. It originated in Saudi Arabia and I drove it to England before shipping it home.

Chimpboy wrote

Well there you go, I didn't know that either, so my explanation of the fuel pressure above is off-base for this setup. Does this mean you don't need any fuel return line?

You still need the return fuel line downstream of the fuel regulator from the tbi to the surge tank. There is also a return line from the surge tank to the main tank. I will post a schematic of the layout. One advantage of a surge tank is that you don't need baffles in your main tank to stop your fuel pump sucking dry when the fuel sloshes around or when you are on aside slope.

David

[David_S]

Here is the fuel schematic which is self explanatory



David

[Eddy]

Nice work David .. ... might let ya stay a while now

[RiverPatrol]

And yes this is a Left Hand drive truck. It originated in Saudi Arabia and I drove it to England before shipping it home.

Don't mean to steal the thread, but that had to have been an incredible drive - in a Patrol no less!!!

Excellent write up, and the mark-up on the pictures is fabulous. Almost as good instructions as paint-by-numbers!

[David_S]

I would be careful reving the P40 though. It is not going to like anything over 4000rpms....I could give many examples of a blown P(40) from over reving. Hell there is one sitting out in my yard!

Thanks for that advice. I have been wondering about where the redline starts. My truck came with a clock instead of a rev counter so I replaced it with a tach from a diesel MQ. I reckoned the redline would start around 4200. With the megasquirt you can set a rev limiter which either cuts the fuel or retards the spark. The combination of Pertronix ignitor and efi just seems to let the revs keep on going up so the rev limiter is handy. Max torque on the P40 comes in at 2000 rpm and max power at 3600 so there is no point going over 4000.

David