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Operation Pastorius

U-Boat at nightJust after midnight on the morning of June 13, 1942, twenty-one-year-old coastguardsman John Cullen was beginning his foot patrol along the coast of Long Island, New York. Although this particular stretch of beach was considered a likely target for enemy landing parties, the young Seaman was the sole line of defense on that foggy night; and his only weapon, a trusty flashlight, was proving ineffective against the smothering haze. As Cullen approached a dune on the beach, the shape of a man suddenly appeared before him. Momentarily startled, he called out for the shape to identify itself.

“We’re fishermen from Southampton,” a voice responded. A middle-aged man emerged from the soupy fog, and continued, “We’ve run ashore.” This sounded plausible to Cullen, so he invited the fisherman and his crew to stay the night at the nearby Coast Guard station. The offer appeared to agitate the man, and he refused. “We don’t have a fishing license,” he explained.

Just as Cullen’s suspicions began to grow, a second figure appeared over the dune and shouted something in German. The man in front of Cullen spun around, yelling, “You damn fool! Go back to the others!” Then he turned back to Cullen with an intensity in his expression that left the Seaman paralyzed—for he was now almost certain that he was alone on the beach with a party of Nazi spies.

The German agent stood close, and hissed, “Do you have a mother? A father?” As Cullen nodded, he continued, “Well, I wouldn’t want to have to kill you.” He held out a wad of cash. “Forget about this, take this money, and go have a good time.” Cullen, realizing this might be his only chance to walk away alive, decided to accept. As he reached for the roll of bills, the man suddenly lunged forward and seized Cullen’s flashlight. He then pointed the light toward his own face. “Do you know me?” he asked.

Seaman second class John C. CullenSeaman second class John C. Cullen“No sir, I never saw you before in my life.”

“My name is George John Davis. Take a good look at me. You’ll be meeting me in East Hampton sometime.” With that, he released his grip on the flashlight and the money, and disappeared back into the fog. The shocked coastguardsman took a few hesitant paces backward, then whirled around and set off at a run for the Coast Guard station to inform his superiors that their fears had been realized.

Cullen’s suspicion was correct, but the man he’d confronted was no hardened military commander. His real name was George John Dasch, a waiter and dishwasher who’d come to the attention of the German High Command for the time he’d spent living in America before the war. He and a team of three similarly inexperienced agents had been given several weeks of intense training at a secret farm near Berlin before being ushered onto a U-boat bound for the US coast. Their mission, led by Dasch, was to sabotage America’s manufacturing and transport sector, and to terrorize the country’s civilian population. It would be known as Operation Pastorius.

The evening’s events had already damaged Dasch’s tenuous hold on the group. Unbeknownst to Seaman John Cullen, two armed sailors had been crouched in the darkness during the conversation on the beach, awaiting the signal to attack. The landing party had been left with standing orders to kill anyone who confronted them during the landing. But Dasch had chosen to let the man go, and his assurances that he had “buffaloed” the coastguardsman did not convince his men. After some nervous arguing back and forth, the saboteurs finished burying their supplies in the sand, and set out for the nearby Long Island Railroad Station.

In the meantime, John Cullen reached the Coast Guard post and breathlessly recited what he’d seen, handing over the bribe money as evidence. Though skeptical, and concerned about raising a false alarm, his superiors agreed to send out an armed patrol to investigate. They were led back to the site by Cullen, where any doubts were quickly dispelled; in the pre-dawn light, the men could see the outline of a German submarine dislodging itself from a sandbar just offshore. Once it had gone, a quick search of the area revealed a series of small crates buried under a shallow layer of sand. Inside were large quantities of explosives, detonation equipment, Nazi uniforms, and quality German liquor.

Once the news reached FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover around noon, his excitement could hardly be contained. As Attorney General Francis Biddle later recalled, “All of Edgar Hoover’s imaginative and restless energy was stirred into prompt and effective action. He was determined to catch them all before any sabotage took place.” Coast Guard Station at Amagansett, New YorkCoast Guard Station at Amagansett, New YorkHere at last was a chance for Hoover to prove his organization’s value to the war effort. But the situation was delicate; making the story public would put every American citizen on the lookout for the Germans, but it would also alert the suspects to the hunt and might cause public hysteria—not to mention considerable embarrassment for Hoover and his Bureau if the search should fail. It was therefore decided that a media blackout be imposed. Quietly, with only the most professional degree of panic, the FBI began the largest manhunt in its history.

By this time, the four would-be terrorists were settled in New York City, preparing for their task from the comfort of fancy hotels and fine restaurants. They had $84,000 in mission funds to enjoy—equivalent to over $1 million today—and in the great melting pot of New York City their German accents raised nary an eyebrow. They remained completely unaware that their essential supplies had already been confiscated and that the entire might of the FBI was secretly on the lookout for them.

But George John Dasch, the group’s daring leader, had a secret of his own. The day after the landing he called Ernst Peter Burger, the most guarded and disciplined member of the team, into the upper-storey hotel room the two men shared. He walked over to the window and opened it wide.

“You and I are going to have a talk,” Dasch said, “And if we disagree, only one of us will walk out that door—the other will fly out this window.”

He then revealed the truth to Burger: he had no intention of going through with the mission. He hated the Nazis, and he wanted Burger on his side when he turned the entire plot over to the FBI. Burger smiled. Having spent seventeen months in a Nazi concentration camp, his own feelings for the party were less than warm. He, too had been planning to betray the mission. They were agreed.

The two men were uncertain how best to proceed with their plan. They were reluctant to contact the authorities, having been told by their handlers that the Nazis had infiltrated the FBI. Eventually, Dasch concluded that their best option was an anonymous phone call to test the waters and arrange for further contact. He called the FBI’s New York Field Office, and after several transfers was put in touch with a special agent. Identifying himself as “Pastorius,” the name of the mission, Dasch carefully recited his story. Then, ominously, the man on the other end of the line hung up. Dasch was stricken with panic. Had he just exposed himself to a Nazi spy? Had the call been traced?

George John Dasch (left) and Ernst Peter Burger (right)George John Dasch (left) and Ernst Peter Burger (right)In fact, he had been speaking to the office’s “nut desk,” the post responsible for fielding calls from Cleopatra and the wolf-man. In the midst of the most important case in the Bureau’s history, the agent on duty had dismissed their only lead as a prank.

Shaken but not discouraged, Dasch ordered Burger to stay put and keep an eye on the other men while he headed for Washington D.C. to set things straight. The morning of June 19, a week after his landing at Long Island, Dasch stepped into the FBI’s headquarters carrying a briefcase. He explained who he was and asked to speak with Director Hoover.

The agents in the building, however, were too busy catching spies to be bothered with every crackpot off the street who happened to know classified details about secret Nazi landings. Dasch was bounced from office to office until finally Assistant Director D.M. Ladd, the agent in charge of the manhunt, agreed to humor him with five minutes of his time. Dasch angrily repeated his story, only to find himself greeted once again with patronizing nods and glances toward the door. Fed up at last, he lifted the briefcase he had been carrying, tore open its straps, and dumped the entire $84,000 of mission funds onto the Assistant Director’s desk. Ladd blinked with astonishment and began to reconsider Dasch’s claims.

For the next week, Dasch was the subject of an intense interrogation, and he happily revealed all he knew. His operation, he explained, was just the first of a long series of sabotage missions planned by the Germans to cripple the American war effort. They were scheduled to land every six weeks, with the second team expected imminently. Dasch exposed the targets he had been instructed to hit as well as the methods he had been trained to use. He revealed key information about German war production, plans, and equipment. He turned over a handkerchief upon which the names of local contacts had been written in invisible ink—although Dasch, who had snoozed his way through spy school, couldn’t remember how to reveal it. Most important of all, Dasch disclosed the locations of his three accomplices and their aliases, taking care to note Burger’s role in the defection.

The three men who had landed with Dasch were quickly located using the information he’d supplied. Dasch knew little about the second four-man team, but with the help of his handkerchief contacts—which the FBI’s lab quickly discovered could be revealed by ammonia fumes—they were soon tracked down and arrested. Just two weeks after the first landing, and without a single attempt at sabotage, all eight men were in custody.

J. Edgar HooverJ. Edgar HooverHoover broke the media blackout on the evening of June 27. Across the nation, American citizens were astonished to wake up to front-page headlines declaring “U-BOATS LAND SPIES; EIGHT SIEZED BY FBI.” But it wasn’t the story known to those on the inside. Hoover reasoned that letting the truth be known now would do nothing to discourage the Germans from making further sabotage attempts. It was better to perpetuate the myth of an invincible FBI that had halted the plot through its own ingenuity and all-seeing eye—a story that also happened to fit nicely into Hoover’s personal agenda.

At his press conference, Hoover therefore made no mention of the defection of Dasch, or indeed of any details on how the case was broken. He opted instead to praise the brilliance and efficiency of his FBI. “The detective work of the century,” Hoover called it, referring perhaps to agent Ladd’s astute observation of $84,000 cash bouncing off of his forehead. Further details, he explained, would have to wait until after the war. The unsatisfied press room erupted with speculations about elite FBI agents infiltrating the Gestapo and the High Command. Hoover refused to confirm any such wild theories, but his triple-eyebrow raises, exaggerated winks, and menacing cackles encouraged the reporters to adopt their own conclusions.

With the last of his accomplices rounded up, it was time at last for Dasch to get his due. On July 3, his contacts at the FBI greeted him with smiles and handcuffs, and tossed him into a cell alongside his men. It was not the response Dasch had been expecting, but the arresting agents assured him it was little more than a formality. If he just went along with it, he was told, J. Edgar Hoover would ensure that he received a presidential pardon within 6 months.

Hoover had indeed already spoken to President Roosevelt about the arrest, but his conversation had nothing to do with advocating Dasch’s release. The president was given an account similar to the one furnished to the press, with no mention of Dasch or Burger’s role in the investigation. According to Hoover, Dasch had been “apprehended” two days after his accomplices; and the arrest had been made in New York, not Washington, implying that the arrest of the subordinates had led to the capture of their leader rather than the other way around. Hoover’s revisions to the story may have had something to do with the river of letters and telegrams later received by the president urging him to award the FBI Director with the Congressional Medal of Honor. As it turned out, the majority of these messages came from the FBI’s own Crime Records Division, the office just a few doors down from Hoover’s. The campaign, however, was unsuccessful.

Explosive supplies recovered from the landing beachExplosive supplies recovered from the landing beachWhether Operation Pastorius’s slapdash team of blue-collar workers and government pencil-pushers ever posed much of a threat is somewhat debatable. At the time of their capture, most of the saboteurs were too busy visiting gambling establishments and prostitutes to be planning any major acts of sabotage. Several were reuniting with family they’d left behind in America, while another had met up with an old girlfriend and was in the process of planning his wedding. The German High Command had perhaps misjudged the wisdom of sending naturalized citizens to attack their own adopted country. Nevertheless, the only concern of the US government was in reassuring its citizens and sending a powerful message to the Nazis. Since the men hadn’t actually committed any crime, a normal court could sentence them to at most a few years in prison—or even acquit them entirely. To President Roosevelt, this was unacceptable. In a memorandum sent to Attorney General Biddle, he wrote: “Surely they are as guilty as it is possible to be and it seems to me that the death penalty is almost obligatory.” A military tribunal, he felt, was the only way to ensure this outcome. “I won’t give them up,” he told Biddle, “I won’t hand them over to any United States marshal armed with a writ of habeas corpus.”

He would find no objections among the American populace. As shown in polls and editorials across the country, the general public was overwhelmingly in favor of execution for all eight terrorists. A letter printed in one newspaper called for the men to be fed to Gargantua, the Ringling Brothers’ famous giant circus gorilla.

Within a month of the initial landing at Long Island, the eight saboteurs were put before a closed-door US military tribunal—the first to be assembled since the days of the Civil War. It was presided over by a panel of seven generals; there would be no jury, no press, and no appeal. During the trial, none of the defendants denied their involvement with the plot, instead claiming that they were forced into the mission by the Nazis, or that they had joined as a means to escape from Germany. Due to his unique circumstances, Dasch was defended separately. His counsel argued competently in his favor, noting that the case would never have been broken without him, that the FBI had promised him his freedom, and that he clearly had been planning to betray the mission from the start. Not only had he disobeyed orders by sparing coastguardsman Cullen, he had also deliberately revealed his face and assigned name—George John Davis—to the man.

Explosive delay devices disguised as pens, submitted as evidenceExplosive delay devices disguised as pens, submitted as evidenceAfter 16 days in session and two rejected constitutional appeals from the defense, both sides had said their piece. A verdict was signed and sent directly to the president, who was to be the final arbiter of the sentencing. It was unanimous: the Germans, all eight of them, were guilty. The recommended sentence was death.

It was only upon reading the transcript of the trial that Roosevelt learned how Hoover had misled him. Regardless, it apparently didn’t shake the foundation of his opinion on the case. At the urging of defense counsel, FDR gave only enough ground to commute Dasch’s sentence to 30 years of hard labor, and Burger’s to life. George John Dasch, a man who had envisioned himself being welcomed as a hero by the American people and perhaps earning his own Medal of Honor, would instead spend what was likely to be the rest of his life in prison. His six accomplices were not so fortunate. Five days after the trial’s end, they were marched to the electric chair in alphabetical order. Within two months of landing in America, the men had been captured, charged, tried, and executed. The official verdict of the tribunal wouldn’t be released for another three months.

Dasch and Burger were locked away in a federal penitentiary, their true story only known to a handful of military and government officials. But as ethically suspect as J. Edgar Hoover’s deception may have been, his cover-up worked. Hitler was infuriated at the news of his men’s capture, and he refused to risk another submarine for further missions. Just as he had intended, Hoover effectively stopped any attempts at German sabotage for the remainder of the war.

Burger and Dasch’s stories didn’t end in prison. After the Allied victory in Europe, the documents pertaining to their case were released to the public despite the strenuous objections of J. Edgar Hoover. With the truth out in the open, and after a further three years of squirming, President Harry S. Truman finally agreed to commute the two men’s sentences. Having spent six years in federal prison, they were released and deported to Germany.

The Nazi saboteurs in courtThe Nazi saboteurs in courtThe consequences of the 1942 Nazi sabotage plot remain very much present today. In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, the United States government approved the use of military tribunals to try captured terrorist suspects. The major precedent for these tribunals is the case of Ex parte Quirin—the trial of George John Dasch and his seven Nazi agents. Their hastily assembled tribunal will also be looked to as the model for any future prosecution of “unlawful combatants.”

Stepping off the plane onto German soil, Dasch and Burger found themselves two men without a home: criminals in America and traitors in Germany. Burger turned against his former commander, publicly blaming him for the entire debacle before disappearing several years later. For his part, Dasch refused to run; he spent the rest of his life campaigning for acceptance in Germany and for a chance to return to America. He never received either. Dasch died in Germany in 1992, still awaiting the pardon promised him by J. Edgar Hoover half a century earlier.

Further reading:
The Keystone Kommandos
FBI History page on the case
German Saboteurs Invade America at TheHistoryNet
Transcripts of the Nazi Saboteur Military Commission
The Ex parte Quirin precedent in US law
Amazon: Buy J. Edgar Hoover: The Man and the Secrets

Christopher S. Putnam is a writer and bomb-disposal expert for the Damn Interesting A-Team. He posts from an undisclosed location in Saskatchewan, Canada.
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#1 trk-runr 20 April 2008 at 08:41 pm

First!

Damn interesting article. Never knew the Germans successfully landed in America.


#2 Catkilller7 20 April 2008 at 08:50 pm

That makes me even more angry with the Americans than I already am…. The person who had to demand to be believed about stopping a terroist attack doesn’t get any justice at all…

Disgusting. Damn interesting, too.


#3 StopBeingCarbon 20 April 2008 at 09:05 pm

that is one of the saddest stories I have ever heard


#4 Flammadeao 20 April 2008 at 09:19 pm

That’s horrible, but given how our country is acting right now I suppose anything is possible. I love how the Germans landed with “quality German liquor.” Gotta have your priorities :) .

Damn sad and interesting.


#5 yakoos 20 April 2008 at 09:30 pm

care to explain that comment catkiller….


#6 ulmert 20 April 2008 at 09:38 pm

yakoos said: “care to explain that comment catkiller….”

i was thinking the same thing


#7 Jonny 20 April 2008 at 09:46 pm

7th!!!!! Today’s number of achievements is now: 1.

This also marks the first time that the front page of Damn Interesting contains only articles that I was witness to the arrival of. I am now a fully fledged member of this society? I assume so.
Kudos, ME!


#8 bfc73 20 April 2008 at 09:48 pm

what about a posthumous pardon?


#9 Lisette 20 April 2008 at 09:59 pm

Great article…DI


#10 boolean 20 April 2008 at 10:05 pm

This needs to be made into a movie.

What a sad story =(


#11 A-Train72 20 April 2008 at 10:25 pm

Wow this is one of the best articles i have read on here. It’s stories like this one that make you realise why only 16% of America approves of the job the government is doing right now.

what about a posthumous pardon?
Great idea but it will never happen sadly. Makes you wonder how many more stories like this one are out there that nobody will ever hear about

P.S. Dibs on the movie rights


#12 jade 20 April 2008 at 10:28 pm

Very DI!! I too was unaware of the fact that they had landed on American soil. Sad to think of the efforts this man took to only have them used to further the careers of those who had promised to help him.


#13 GiddyGiant 20 April 2008 at 10:31 pm

oh man, that really sucks. To think they got that kind of treatment for their selfless sacrifice. Hardly for America, but defiitly not for Heir Hitler, which was important, and we treated them like dogs. Ouch.


#14 treflar 20 April 2008 at 10:45 pm

There’s an old spy novel called the “ninth man” it built on this, but added an uber commando with his own secret mission. I would recommend it.


#15 supercalafragalistic 20 April 2008 at 11:35 pm

That Hoover character sure had his priorities set on himself. However, he did get the results that were important. What if the Germans bombed us? That could have changed the course of history. I don’t know, maybe today’s Americans are too uptight about the right and wrong of situations?? Perhaps it’s the changing views of subsequent generations as we put our own spin on what happened back then, and also as we get more distance from the time period- views change about the historical events. With all the killing going on in Germany and both World Wars, my guess is that during those times, two people needlessly getting sent to an electric chair was a small price to pay to keep the Germans out of the US. And, even if now we look back and say how barbaric and horrible is America, our country was by far better than the Germans we were fighting at the time.

These days there are different things going on. These days we have different lenses with which to look through and interpret this story. We have the lens of the death penalty and the arguments over that in contemporary society where people on death row were proven innocent with DNA evidence. Things like that can color how we view this story. We’ve also been pretty darned unhappy with the current administration as a whole and that can really color how we view this story also.

However, my thought is that during the timeframe of the arrest of these people, America was young, great, and nothing had beaten us down or disappointed us. Given the circumstances and the thinking of the times, I get why things unfolded as they did.

Today’s tabloidization of the media is horrible. If something like this were to happen today the media would descend all over this and could theaten national security in the process.


#16 cinndave 21 April 2008 at 12:42 am

Hot Damn! This article turned out to be a lot more interesting than I expected. I thought it was going to be another spy thriller like that Confederate story earlier. Lot to it.

I never knew anything or any one had landed on the east shore. I would have expected them to keep it a complete secret to keep the public from becoming afraid of more infiltrators. I know that they aggressively covered up the Japanese balloon bombings in Oregon because they didn’t want the public to be scared about the Japs successfully attacking the homeland.

What an infuriating ending. This story ruined my mood. What a horrible injustice. We really need to abolish the death penalty.


#17 FixitDave 21 April 2008 at 02:33 am

Great story, well written and typical government…it aint just America that does this, sadly they all do it.


#18 SoxSweepAgain 21 April 2008 at 02:39 am

That just sucks.
There’s no better word to convey connotation.

“Sucks”.


#19 Mirage_GSM 21 April 2008 at 04:10 am

cinndave said: “What an infuriating ending. This story ruined my mood. What a horrible injustice. We really need to abolish the death penalty.”

Well, the time was war, and the death penalty was what awaited about anyone who was caught spying in any country.
Thus it is not so much the fate of those six other saboteurs that is surprising, though it is certainly excessive by today’s standards.
However that they locked up the other two – even after the war – was not a matter of national security but of personal pride!
Germany stopped being a serious threat to mainland america less than two years after the sentence. Putting those two under house arrest until then would have sufficed even the most paranoid scenario.


#20 mustamike 21 April 2008 at 04:13 am

Damn sad and interesting.


#21 monkforhire 21 April 2008 at 04:27 am

It seems things never change, really. And I’m amazed at supercalafragalistic defending it. Come on fella, don’t sign away your freedoms because it suits the guys at the top.

They kept the vast majority of this hushed up for so long, surely they could have secretly made arrangements to spare Dasch and Burger. Nah, it’s a massive injustice and there’s no excuse for it. If something’s going to be secret anyway then it might as well be a positive secret.

Oh, and it sucks. Seems to be the prevailing opinion so I might as well chip in.


#22 monkforhire 21 April 2008 at 04:29 am

As a quick addendum to my last post, I hasten to add that it wasn’t just America that did evil crap like this. We Brits were just as bad. Well, not ‘we’ Brits, but those Brits. ‘We’ Brits have to answer for our own problems.


#23 CptPicard 21 April 2008 at 04:50 am

supercalafragalistic said: That could have changed the course of history.

Hardly. A few bombs here and there would not have mattered anything, and the by 1943 the Germans had enough to worry on the Eastern Front with Stalin steamrolling his way towards Berlin that there really was no way they could have mobilized anything against the US. Even the submarine war took a decisive turn for the worse around that time.

With all the killing going on in Germany and both World Wars, my guess is that during those times, two people needlessly getting sent to an electric chair was a small price to pay to keep the Germans out of the US. And, even if now we look back and say how barbaric and horrible is America, our country was by far better than the Germans we were fighting at the time.

But you know, that’s exactly the sort of slippery slope that can be used to rationalize a descent into barbarism on both sides. Yes, sometimes you do what you have to do, but one has to be very very careful indeed about what it exactly is that you absolutely “have to” do.

However, my thought is that during the timeframe of the arrest of these people, America was young, great, and nothing had beaten us down or disappointed us.

A great rhetorical piece of nationalist jingoism if there ever was one.

If something like this were to happen today the media would descend all over this and could theaten national security in the process.”

Fascism needs external enemies you know, so that things can be restricted so that it doesn’t threaten “national security…


#24 ulzha 21 April 2008 at 05:10 am

Disgusting indeed. And DI.


#25 Anonymousx2 21 April 2008 at 05:15 am

This appears in the article: and in the great melting pot of New York City their German accents raised nary an eyebrow.

This leads to two items:
1. The fact that potential spies and saboteurs were living amongst others similar to them renders the Japanese internment more comprehensible, given the atmosphere of fear and paranoia of the time.
2. Why, though, did those either of Italian or German descent avoid internment? The answer that I have read once or twice before is that, because they were white, the government did not pursue the option of internment.

Does anyone know any other reasons? All I know is what I have read, and that is not much.

Perhaps the lack of internment for Italian- and German-Americans is a suitable topic for one of the DI writers.


#26 Bluesky 21 April 2008 at 05:19 am

What a horribly sad story :(

But I’m sure karma will get America for this.


#27 another viewpoint 21 April 2008 at 06:12 am

…and what other atrocities and secrets are held in our governments “Pandora’s Box?” We may never know…and in some cases, we may be better off NOT knowing! Else, once it’s broadcast the world will know of it…as well as other terrorists and characters of sinnister persuasion. Kinda hard to keep a secret with CNN around.


#28 Catkilller7 21 April 2008 at 06:13 am

yakoos said: “care to explain that comment catkiller….”

I have my own opinions which you don’t need to agree with.


#29 another viewpoint 21 April 2008 at 06:14 am

…”EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY…Everybody to get from street!” Anyone remember the movie, The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming? Classic comedy based on a very real and present danger (at the time).


#30 nofatum 21 April 2008 at 06:29 am

There are a few other stories of German U-Boats being at our back door. Galveston, TX was a hot spot and the military set up a blimp base in Sante Fe and a German prison that is now the Brazoria County fairgrounds. Over seventy ships were sunk and one U-Boat lost. You can even visit some of the old gun bunkers left on the coast.

“Torpedoes in the Gulf” is one book that tells the story.


#31 Richard Solensky 21 April 2008 at 06:32 am

Anonymousx2: Germans (see http://www.gaic.info) were interned during WWII, as well as Italian foreign nationals. Their numbers weren’t as many as that of the Japanese, since it was more obvious who was Japanese and who wasn’t (for obvious reasons). Also, had Italy or Germany successfully attacked the U.S., there most certainly would have been more widespread reaction and internments.


#32 ggnutsc 21 April 2008 at 06:45 am

D.I…. In this day and age I can’t believe it would be any easier than it was for them to be taken seriously, even with our heightened state of alert…. Sadly, no good deed goes unpunished, especially in the eyes of the government.


#33 Kay 21 April 2008 at 06:47 am

Bluesky said: “What a horribly sad story :(

But I’m sure karma will get America for this.”

Uhh… it already did! It’s called “9/11″

Our government decided to repeat the past and ignore warnings of the 9/11 plot. But instead of it finally being believed before harm could come, it ended in much death.

Also.. why should all of america pay for what the government does? We have no say in what our so called leaders secretly do behind our backs. What country does?


#34 denki 21 April 2008 at 06:49 am

supercalafragalistic said: “However, my thought is that during the timeframe of the arrest of these people, America was young, great, and nothing had beaten us down or disappointed us.”

Are you forgetting a little something called “The Great Depression?” Or the civil war that Americans had 70 years before that? Or the Spanish influenza of 1918 that killed 500,000? Were those not beat-downs or disappointments? Do I even need to go into racial injustices? No nation, if you actually pay attention to the history, is rosy and filled with sunshine and lollipops. Like many others, America was built with blood, sweat and tears- and like many others, others blood, the oppressed’s sweat, and the raped’ tears.


#35 3200k 21 April 2008 at 06:59 am

Give an entity too much control and they are bound to abuse it. Someone once said that the only people worthy of a powerful position are those who would not accept it, and I think this article justifies that concept.


#36 Bleupea 21 April 2008 at 07:03 am

denki said: “Like many others, America was built with blood, sweat and tears- and like many others, others blood, the oppressed’s sweat, and the raped’ tears.”

Isn’t that a little cynical? Every country has it’s “dirty laundry,” so to speak, so I’m not sure it is fair to say that America was founded on atrocities. Don’t get me wrong, this story is sickening and shameful, along with many other little dark secrets in our history, but I guess I’m still among those who believe the good outweighs the bad.
Regardless, damn interesting article for sure! I love the articles in the history section. There are so many fascinating things I had no clue about! I love this site, keep up the excellent work!


#37 Baragla 21 April 2008 at 07:11 am

CptPicard said: “Hardly. A few bombs here and there would not have mattered anything, and the by 1943 the Germans had enough to worry on the Eastern Front with Stalin steamrolling his way towards Berlin that there really was no way they could have mobilized anything against the US. Even the submarine war took a decisive turn for the worse around that time.

Sabotaging America was very clever and logical. It would have forced her to better protect the huge east-coast against german u-boats. It is very possible that this would have been done by pulling trans-Atlantic convoy escorts for home defense. This may have led to the fall of Britain, which in turn would have freed German war resources for use on its eastern front and in Africa.
Other successful infiltrations may have had to do with trying to sway the American opinion on the righteousness of fueling the Soviet war effort and so on…


#38 oneeyechuck 21 April 2008 at 07:37 am

The suspension of habeas corpus and the use of military tribunals, where constitutional protections are nonexistent, are only two of ten things that those in power use to close a previously open society (Check out “The End of America” by Naomi Wolf for the other eight) . Keystone Kops, indeed, who know how to manipulate the media, and therefore the people, and show the world the results of “the detective work of the century,” inspiring fear in those who would oppose them. (I got a good laugh out of the image of straps o’bucks smacking A.D. Ladd in the face.)
The US was, supposedly, founded on the rule of law. It’s when you get small minded idiots playing CYA (Cover Your Ass) and only looking out for their own, or their organizations, aggrandizement, that you get injustices like this. I am reminded of a quote by Robert Heinlein, “Never underestimate the power of human stupidity,” or something like that. I am not saying that the government is evil, just that petty individuals in it can destroy us from within. I guess the questions it really brings up for me are,” Are we truly a nation of laws or just masquerading as one?” and, even more basically “Do the ends justify patently illegal means when it comes to national security?” ( I’m not talking about killing an enemy who is hell bent on killing you, but situations, like this, where the immediate threat has passed.) If the answer to either question is yes, I’m not sure I would want to be part of that nation (although I’m afraid it’s too late).


#39 lmoretti 21 April 2008 at 07:56 am

Anonymousx2 said: ”
2. Why, though, did those either of Italian or German descent avoid internment? The answer that I have read once or twice before is that, because they were white, the government did not pursue the option of internment.

The answer- They were interned, just not in quite as large of quantities and with less publication. Even famous Italian-Americans were affected. While Joe Demaggio was enlisted in the Air Force, his Father Giuseppe was classified as an “Enemy Alien”

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/Italian_Report.pdf
http://www.foitimes.com/internment/gasummary.htm


#40 Watcher 21 April 2008 at 08:59 am

Oneeye, I share your sense of frustration and disenfranchisement sometimes. The temptation to opt out is strong. But frankly, opt out and go where? The moral duty to stay the course therefore has to be stronger. You seem to be good with quotes. Who said “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”?


#41 poloniustrue 21 April 2008 at 09:22 am

Flammadeao said: “That’s horrible, but given how our country is acting right now I suppose anything is possible. I love how the Germans landed with “quality German liquor.” Gotta have your priorities :) .

Damn sad and interesting.”

You mean wandering the world like ham fisted thugs? But we’re SO GOOD at it!


#42 oneeyechuck 21 April 2008 at 09:35 am

@ Watcher…. Without looking it up…Jefferson? The problem I come up against is how do you open people’s eyes? (climbs onto soapbox) They barely pay attention in traffic, whether I’m in an 40 ton truck or on a 600 pound motorcycle! When I talk to folks about what’s going on, about verifiable actions that the gov’t has taken, either their eyes glaze over or they look at me like I’m wearing a tinfoil hat. Occasionally, I get the question, “Well, what can you do? They’ve got the power.” On paper, the supreme authority in the US is supposed to be “The People”, but on a practical level, as noted by Mao Power grows from the barrel of a gun and the gov’t's got more, and bigger, guns, in addition to the courts, IRS, TSA and all the other alphabet soup agencies. I tell people to write letters, not e-mail, but real, paper letters to their Senators and Rep.s, the Editors of local papers, etc. and get out and find other like-minded individuals and protest. But most can’t be bothered because they are working so hard just to pay the bills, they don’t have time or energy to “waste”, or are afraid of what Mrs. Grundy would say. (climbs down from soapbox)

As to opting out, you’re right, there is nowhere else to go. Times like these call for true patriots to stand up and fight. This is no longer the country I was raised to believe in. Remember, the Founders were guilty of treason against the Crown. (ok, now I’ll get off the soapbox.)


#43 oneeyechuck 21 April 2008 at 09:41 am

Oops! Looked it up, I was wrong. Edmund Burke wrote that, although he was a contemporary of T.J.’s.


#44 OleRebel 21 April 2008 at 09:49 am

Very sad – but definitely not out of character for those in power. Our leaders can really put a spin on events to justify their actions. Like giving pox infected blankets to Indians. I am sure there could be a DI Wing just for “Things America would just as soon forget”…


#45 wargammer2005 21 April 2008 at 09:55 am

good thing the guy was not a democrat.


#46 Brombachian 21 April 2008 at 10:05 am

Hoover had a real moral dilemma:

1) Admit the Germans defected: Justice is served but the Germans would not be discouraged to land and would probably try and sabotage more. Hitler would have realized “this only didn’t work because of defect. Maybe we should try again with more loyal/better trained spies.”

2) Say the FBI caught them through their own means: No justice but discouraged future spy/sabotage missions.

Add a layer of self interest (Hoovers insatiable hunger for power) and it is no surprise Hoover did what he did. Absent the personal reasons, this could have almost been reconcilable: sacrifice a few Germans to protect the welfare of the state. However, that itself is an almost fascist train of thought.

Those that favored execution obviously didn’t know the whole story. However, if they knew the whole story, everyone else might know as well.

What a catch 22.


#47 Bluesock 21 April 2008 at 10:47 am

Dasch lives! Don’t believe Ondore’s lies!


#48 DamnAwesome 21 April 2008 at 11:25 am

This reads like Nelson DeMille’s Charm School. The Russians have a school where captured pilots are used as trainers for turning Ivans into Joes.


#49 Bleupea 21 April 2008 at 11:26 am

Just a thought to throw in, even though Hoover lied only to promote himself, what would have happened to Dasch had he been simply pardoned and released? I would assume that he would have become a walking target since he tried to completely sabotage Nazi spy efforts on the U.S.
It doesn’t seem to me that Hitler and his croonies were the type of men to say, “Oops, guess we can’t trust that one ever again.” He would have probably had a horribly painful death waiting for him, so no matter how the events unravelled, he would have hardly had the wonderful patriotic life he had envisioned.


#50 MC42 21 April 2008 at 11:27 am

Catkilller7 said: “That makes me even more angry with the Americans than I already am….

Catkilller7 said: “I have my own opinions which you don’t need to agree with.”

With a name like “Catkilller7″ and comments like the one’s you made. What the Hell are you hiding? If you don’t like Americans . . . Get the Hell out of here!


#51 Mikell 21 April 2008 at 11:55 am

“In the midst of the most important case in the Bureau’s history, the agent on duty had dismissed their only lead as a prank.”

Not surprizing, in view of Hoover’s inability to locate the Mafia for decades.


#52 JJ10 21 April 2008 at 12:08 pm

Great article, a sad story, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

MC42 said: “With a name like “Catkilller7″ and comments like the one’s you made. What the Hell are you hiding? If you don’t like Americans . . . Get the Hell out of here!”

Get the hell out of where ? The internet is a GLOBAL tool isn’t it or does the USA own it now ? I believe the Brits invented it?

There are millions around the world who have every right to be angry with the USA. Rightly or wrongly, sometimes this translates into being angry with Americans (but after all you really do need to take responsibility for the nasty things your government does).

I am sure you are going to shoot me down in flames with barely a thought, and it is unthinking reactions like that which are the case of many of the USA’s problems.

Note, just because his nik is CatKiller, I don’t think he really HAS TO kill cats does he?


#53 cabdude 21 April 2008 at 12:11 pm

Read the FBI’s version of the events;

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/nazi/nazi.htm

It’s …erm… interesting.


#54 Bleupea 21 April 2008 at 12:20 pm

JJ10 said: “Great article, a sad story, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Get the hell out of where ? The internet is a GLOBAL tool isn’t it or does the USA own it now ? I believe the Brits invented it?

There are millions around the world who have every right to be angry with the USA. Rightly or wrongly, sometimes this translates into being angry with Americans (but after all you really do need to take responsibility for the nasty things your government does).

I am sure you are going to shoot me down in flames with barely a thought, and it is unthinking reactions like that which are the case of many of the USA’s problems.

Note, just because his nik is CatKiller, I don’t think he really HAS TO kill cats does he?”

Hey, don’t attack all of us Americans just because of one especially defensive one! Everyone in the world is mad at someone, so unless I’m personally responsible, I try to ignore it. Being angry doesn’t solve anything, but constructive criticism and hard work does. Besides, I think we’re kind of used to the whole world hating us or thinking ill of us, I try not to hate an entire nationality or group of people based on their governments, but maybe that’s just me.


#55 thehandmn 21 April 2008 at 12:34 pm

Good old Ex parte Quirin…every law student reads about this case in Constitutional Law – Powers. I’d be willing to bet that not so many of us are given the backstory as given here in DI. It may not be relevant to the legal principle behind the holding in Quirin, but it’s certainly relevant to the legal and moral principles that guide our national dialogue on terrorism and the Constitution. There are those that refer to this part of our era as “post-9/11.” Superficially true as that is, stories like this remind us that we need to control our knee-jerk reactions if our democracy is to be worthy of exporting abroad.


#56 GeorgeAR 21 April 2008 at 01:58 pm

Another DI Article!
Just goes to show Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. If Herr Dasch showed up in drag, Hoover would’ve been all over him!


#57 Jeffrey93 21 April 2008 at 02:24 pm

I gotta admit…this sounds just about exactly how I would expect Americans to act, given the situation.


#58 Redneck Beauty 21 April 2008 at 02:27 pm

Thats sad! The public never hears the real story at the time of the event, only 50+ years after…


#59 OleRebel 21 April 2008 at 02:30 pm

JJ10 said: “Great article, a sad story, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Get the hell out of where ? The internet is a GLOBAL tool isn’t it or does the USA own it now ? I believe the Brits invented it?

There are millions around the world who have every right to be angry with the USA. Rightly or wrongly, sometimes this translates into being angry with Americans (but after all you really do need to take responsibility for the nasty things your government does).

I am sure you are going to shoot me down in flames with barely a thought, and it is unthinking reactions like that which are the case of many of the USA’s problems.

Note, just because his nik is CatKiller, I don’t think he really HAS TO kill cats does he?”

I thought Al Gore invented the Internet……


#60 Catkilller7 21 April 2008 at 03:07 pm

Why should I have to leave? I’ve voiced my opinion, explained how nobody needs to share it, and then went on my way.

If it will make you happy, I don’t hate Americans. I know some lovely people there who are very nice and considerate. It’s just in my own view that I don’t agree with how the United States have been handling things well as of late, and if you think I should be banned from the internet for that, then you might as well ban everyone else who shares that viewpoint. Or, easier, you could leave yourself.

I apologise for any trauma I may have caused to you.


#61 baconbits 21 April 2008 at 03:12 pm

DI article. I had no idea this event in June 1942 even occured – thanks to DI, I’m a better informed citizen. But I pause to consider just how many of these “events” did occur during and since then, and have been buried so deep by our “protective” agencies that we will never know the truth.

Like the X-Files…the truth is out there…but will we ever see it?


#62 Radiatidon 21 April 2008 at 03:12 pm

JJ10 said: “Great article, a sad story, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Get the hell out of where ? The internet is a GLOBAL tool isn’t it or does the USA own it now ? I believe the Brits invented it? “

Actually the internet (Acronym for interconnect computer networks) was born when DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) in the USA created ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency NETwork), a means for sharing research on defense projects between involved universities, sub-contractors, and defense research facilities in 1969. It was basically a primitive e-mail and FTP network.

Leonard Kleinrock of MIT (USA) created the core of networking when he published a paper in 1961 detailing packet switching theory. Packets are the information that is sent between computers allowing information exchange.

When TCP/IP was developed, the term “Internet” was used to detail a worldwide network with the publication of RFC 674 in 1974 written by three Standord University students. Based on this paper, protocols were developed to allow integration of TCP/IP so that it was system friendly no matter what type of operating system or hardware configuration.

This early network developed and when it proved its worth, the British Post Office, Telenet, Datapac, and Transpac joined forces to create IPSS in 1978. At this time the US Defense department was using a worldwide network communicating between its various bases located around the globe.

By now various user groups, corporations, and commercial groups were wired in using this global network. It was in 1989 when Tim Berners Lee and Robert Cailliau (England) thought about using the existing Internet as an informational gateway that could be more dynamic and easily available to the common man. They created the first web browser and coined the phrase Worldwideweb (original syntax). Tim Berners Lee also invented both the HTML markup language and the HTTP protocol used to request and transmit web pages. So the Internet was invented in the USA while the World Wide Web (which helped tame and organize the mass of information available on the Internet) was invented in England.

The Don


#63 1c3d0g 21 April 2008 at 03:52 pm

Wow…that is such a sad story. My heart literally aches for the men who’ve given up so much yet received no compassion from anyone. Sometimes this can be a sick, twisted world.


#64 soulkitchen 21 April 2008 at 03:58 pm

My pragmatic side says that we couldn’t tell the press the whole truth at the time for reasons that have been stated. But did those guys need to actually be put in prison? It would have been just as easy to SAY we sent them to Leavenworth, and then hold them under house arrest till the end of the war.

If anything, they had to know that the full story was going to come out eventually. Now that this is known, wouldn’t a savvy saboteur simply slip away and not send a warning?(/Sylvester)

@OneEyeChuck: Stay on your soapbox sir! I can’t tell you what relief it gives me to finally hear someone else say this.

oneeyechuck said: “When I talk to folks about what’s going on, about verifiable actions that the gov’t has taken, either their eyes glaze over or they look at me like I’m wearing a tinfoil hat. Occasionally, I get the question, “Well, what can you do? They’ve got the power.” On paper, the supreme authority in the US is supposed to be “The People”. … Times like these call for true patriots to stand up and fight. This is no longer the country I was raised to believe in. Remember, the Founders were guilty of treason against the Crown.”

I have this reoccurring dream that the whole country is on a bus headed toward a cliff, and the driver(s) are putting a cinder block on the accelerator and getting ready to jump out. I’m on the bus waving my hands and yelling for people to look up and help stop the bus…but no one listens, they just go back to watching American Idol on their Ipods.

But hey, look at it this way, at least we didn’t torture the bastards…did we?


#65 oldmancoyote 21 April 2008 at 06:35 pm

I hate to say it, but leave it to Hoover to frigg things up. Yes, this situation could have been handled in a much better way. Too late now. What do we do, appologize to these guys? Ok. Hey, sorry Dasch. I would have given you a little mountain hideaway and kept tabs on you.

Hoover made anything the FBI did look grandiose in an effort to continue getting funding and perpetuate the FBIs existance. He succeeded. It’s here to stay, guys.

Brombachian, I do not believe it was ever a moral delimma for Hoover. Just say the good ol’ FBI caught them by thier own means then say they were executed.
Hoover had to justify the existance of his agency and would stop at nothing short of treason to do it.


#66 Anonymousx2 21 April 2008 at 06:58 pm

soulkitchen.

I like the Doors, too.


#67 Anonymousx2 21 April 2008 at 07:01 pm

Catkilller7 said: “Why should I have to leave? I’ve voiced my opinion, explained how nobody needs to share it, and then went on my way.

If it will make you happy, I don’t hate Americans. I know some lovely people there who are very nice and considerate. It’s just in my own view that I don’t agree with how the United States have been handling things well as of late, and if you think I should be banned from the internet for that, then you might as well ban everyone else who shares that viewpoint. Or, easier, you could leave yourself.

I apologise for any trauma I may have caused to you.”

Please write whatever you like, as long as you don’t call anyone names. I am a staunch defender of free speech, and the Internet is one of the few places left where it can be exercised.

I ask you not to be offended by those in this country who are so thin-skinned that a few comments enrage them. Pity. I used to think that Americans were a little above that sort of thing. I guess we’re not. Maybe we never were. Hard to stand as an example to the world if a few words make you angry, isn’t it?


#68 supercalafragalistic 21 April 2008 at 07:56 pm

Wow! Cool comments. I get so much out of reading them. I got a lot out of the comments on my comments. I was stepping into opinionated waters for the first time in a long time on DI and I am so happy people interacted with me! Yay!

denki said: “Are you forgetting a little something called “The Great Depression?” Or the civil war that Americans had 70 years before that? Or the Spanish influenza of 1918 that killed 500,000? Were those not beat-downs or disappointments? Do I even need to go into racial injustices? No nation, if you actually pay attention to the history, is rosy and filled with sunshine and lollipops. Like many others, America was built with blood, sweat and tears- and like many others, others blood, the oppressed’s sweat, and the raped’ tears.”

You know, that is a great point. The Depression was pretty bad. I guess what I meant to say was more that it just seems like we have a criminal in office as President, whereas back then those types of things may not have been the case? What do you think about that? Do you think things are worse now or do you think they have always been awful? It’s really hard for me to say because I don’t think I have as studied of a background in history as you do. I’d really be interested to know more about what you think and would value learning your opinion.

Baragla said: “Sabotaging America was very clever and logical. It would have forced her to better protect the huge east-coast against german u-boats. It is very possible that this would have been done by pulling trans-Atlantic convoy escorts for home defense. This may have led to the fall of Britain, which in turn would have freed German war resources for use on its eastern front and in Africa.
Other successful infiltrations may have had to do with trying to sway the American opinion on the righteousness of fueling the Soviet war effort and so on…”

Wow. This is a great way to think it through in terms of a scenario of how history could have been changed.

CptPicard said: “Hardly. A few bombs here and there would not have mattered anything, and the by 1943 the Germans had enough to worry on the Eastern Front with Stalin steamrolling his way towards Berlin that there really was no way they could have mobilized anything against the US. Even the submarine war took a decisive turn for the worse around that time.…”

Well, I was meaning that it would have changed history if the Germans bombed America. Do you think that it would not have or it would have been the same? What do you think? Do you think it would have humbled America any, or would there have been a positive outcome somehow? I’m not sure. We certainly didn’t get the ravages of war suffered by Europe during both World Wars, but do you think it would have done us some good to get a dose of this?

But you know, that’s exactly the sort of slippery slope that can be used to rationalize a descent into barbarism on both sides. Yes, sometimes you do what you have to do, but one has to be very very careful indeed about what it exactly is that you absolutely “have to” do..…”
You know that is a fantastic point, and I really agree with you and it was a worthwhile thing to add into the comments, absolutely. My thought is that with all of the concentration camps and Nazi awful stuff going on that this incident seems more like a nitpick within the context of the times. What I was trying to do was to understand where they were coming from, and to get a sense of their mindset. Frankly, I have to say that I agree with you. I don’t like the idea of a slippery slope either!

A great rhetorical piece of nationalist jingoism if there ever was one……”

I guess this is just my own personal perspective. America seemed so much cooler back then, and so much more corruput nowadays.

Fascism needs external enemies you know, so that things can be restricted so that it doesn’t threaten “national security…”
I am so glad you commented on this stuff because I need things to think about to keep me out of trouble, you know! :) I’m serious@!!! I was thinking more like the Media would mess things up. I personally have a disdain for today’s Media, but it’s like I think the Media is the external enemy here, but that doesn’t quite fit in to what you are saying, or does it? So the Germans said the Jewish people were an external enemy and then they justified all of their horrors based on the interests of national security. This was way wrong. Do you think that when America says let’s keep the Germans from bombing us no matter what we have to do that it’s the same thing kind of? Well, maybe not as bad? Are you referring to simply any bad thing in general can be justified in the name of National Security? I think that is another slippery slope!! :)


#69 Catkilller7 21 April 2008 at 07:56 pm

Anonymousx2 said: “Please write whatever you like, as long as you don’t call anyone names. I am a staunch defender of free speech, and the Internet is one of the few places left where it can be exercised.

I ask you not to be offended by those in this country who are so thin-skinned that a few comments enrage them. Pity. I used to think that Americans were a little above that sort of thing. I guess we’re not. Maybe we never were. Hard to stand as an example to the world if a few words make you angry, isn’t it?”

Angry? Me? Oh, my, heavens, no! =D

This is the Internet my dear friend. I’ve learned not to take much seriously, and, personally, people can do whatever they want with me, I won’t mind nor care.

I take no offense at all, but I just thought I would post a little as to make sure I’m not misunderstood.


#70 markda1 21 April 2008 at 09:25 pm

Perhaps if the United States finally is subjugated by a major power or catastrophic event the writers of the “damn America” posts in this story will be content. While I don’t condone despicable acts by my government, I do support it in any attempt to protect us from harm by foreign (or domestic) powers. Hoover was a self-serving egotist, everyone knows that. But the ends justifies the means in times of national distress (like a war).

Good article and damn interesting.


#71 supercalafragalistic 21 April 2008 at 09:32 pm

monkforhire said: “It seems things never change, really. And I’m amazed at supercalafragalistic defending it. Come on fella, don’t sign away your freedoms because it suits the guys at the top.”
I don’t know if I’m defending it or not because I’m still pretty tetter-totter-esque regarding my opinion, mostly trying to find a balance like the pesky astrological sign Libra that I am. I’m trying to see all the way around the issue and trying to be as enlightened as possible. I think I was more trying to have some empathy for the context. I think I get where they were coming from, but since then I think as a society we’ve improved so much on our stances on some of these things.


#72 JJ10 22 April 2008 at 12:31 am


I have this reoccurring dream that the whole country is on a bus headed toward a cliff, and the driver(s) are putting a cinder block on the accelerator and getting ready to jump out. I’m on the bus waving my hands and yelling for people to look up and help stop the bus…but no one listens, they just go back to watching American Idol on their Ipods.

What a fantastic analogy, its always re-assuring to find that there are people on the ‘inside’ who give a damn, given the results of the first G.W.Bush election, oddly , MORE people on the give a damn then don’t :-)


#73 col_p 22 April 2008 at 04:06 am

I think a large part of the problem the rest of the world has with America and it’s foreign policy is that there is no room for negotiation. It’s all fair and well if what they’re doing is “good”, but what of the situations where it’s only a self-serving agenda they’re instigating? Being a relatively “new” country, it also doesn’t have the benefit of experience Europe and other continents have, when dealing with immediate, hostile neighbours. 9/11 is certainly a tragedy, but it is America’s alone. Six and a half years on, the rest of the world is still expected to stare agog at what happened in New York that day. We all live in countries where terrorist attacks and mass human casualties are woven into the fabric of our history. If you were then to equate the loss of life that has occurred as a direct result of those events and the impact it has had on world politics, do you think the reaction from the US Government is justified? It seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction to lash out at every black face in the Middle East with deadly force. All except the Saudis, of course.


#74 GeorgeAR 22 April 2008 at 04:36 am

What were they doing in Germany anyway? These were American citizens that went over to fight for the Germans during WW II. Many did and died in battle. Is their a difference? Other than they got cold feet and said ‘I don’t want to play war anymore’? I don’t think they are as innocent as the article portrays them.


#75 tampagirl 22 April 2008 at 06:08 am

GeorgeAR said: “What were they doing in Germany anyway? These were American citizens that went over to fight for the Germans during WW II. Many did and died in battle. Is their a difference? Other than they got cold feet and said ‘I don’t want to play war anymore’? I don’t think they are as innocent as the article portrays them.”

Very good point. I am sure that staying away from the war and continuing to reside in America was an option. It seems to me only a HIGHLY motivated individual would move back into a war zone. Sure makes you question Dasch and Burgers loyalty to America…doesn’t it?


#76 J.K. 22 April 2008 at 06:20 am

Wow pretty unfair blanket statements from kitty and jj there. Mind telling us where you’re from so we can fill in the blanks below and act like you making the ignorant statements like…

“That makes me even more angry with the ______s than I already am…”

…and…

“There are millions around the world who have every right to be angry with _____. Rightly or wrongly, sometimes this translates into being angry with ______s (but after all you really do need to take responsibility for the nasty things your government does).”

Might as well be fair and drop unfair criticism, verbal abuse, blanket stupidity statements and the rest on where ever you two and any others like you are from too. No country has any grounds to be absolved of whatever they may do, yet to pigeonhole an entire population into sucking equally so is pretty wrong. Sure you can trace it back to elections, but you know what? It’s fairly safe to say that all campaigns are bs, just some aren’t so transparent such as in the States…while others are obviously rigged like in Russia, or elsewhere with rampant fraud and coerced votes. Blame the gov’t fine, don’t blame the country on the whole or its people.

***
On topic though simply put Hoover was a crank and a jerk, and Roosevelt was a fairly large scumbag too yet so many old codgers look up to that mini-dictator as one of the nations best presidents which is sickening. Mind you most the saboteurs got what they deserved, the 2 defectors got shafted hard and quite unfairly since they exposed the plot. Hoover and FDR(then Truman) buried the truth and repaid that kindness in the worst way possible. Hate those 3 idiots and their enablers, not the nation.


#77 oneeyechuck 22 April 2008 at 06:21 am

@markda1, I take it that you don’t have a problem with the suspension of habeas corpus, the effective repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act, and the power that the President has taken upon himself to name anyone an “enemy combatant”, without recouse through the Judicial Branch? Not to mention the abuse and outright torture of prisoners. I bet that you’re one of those people who consent to violations of privacy because “If you’ve got nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to fear.”

The principles of the system of checks and balances were put into place to make it difficult to concentrate power in one branch of the federal government. The Founders would weep if they could see the philosophy of a unitary executive in action.

markda1 said: … I do support it in any attempt to protect us from harm by foreign (or domestic) powers. … But the ends justifies the means in times of national distress (like a war). “

I guess the debate come down to the basic question of ends and means. Some may consider me naive, but I believe in absolutes. The ends do not justify the means, if those means fall outside the “rules” of war as agreed to by the Geneva Convention.

Would you be proud to live in a country where your government has the “legal” right to indefinitely detain citizens without charge, or bring those citizens before a tribunal for a “trial” where they are not allowed to even see, let alone refute, the evidence against them, or where all your communications are subject to surveillance, all in the name of national security? Guess what, if you live in the good old US of A, you already do live in such a country! We (the US) have done these things already and are on a slippery, slippery slope and it would only take a small “shove” to send us to the bottom of that slope. Bush, or his successor, would then be in such distinguished company as Stalin, Mussolini and Pinochet as a “Leader” who closed an open society. The Founders knew that you can have maximum Liberty or maximum Security and that the two, at their extremes, are mutually exclusive, and at best are difficult to reconcile and balance. I do not hate this country. I love the principles of liberty and equal justice before the law that this nation was founded on and am deeply saddened and alarmed at the actions of the Bush administration. The price of Freedom is, indeed, blood, sweat and tears. We have not always lived up to the ideals embodied in the Constitution, but we can and must continue to strive for them. We must answer the call to do our Constitutional duty and hold those responsible for the perversion of those principles accountable for their actions. I echo Patrick Henry and am just as sincere, “Give me Liberty, or give me Death!”

(I’m not good with the coding thing or there would be links to back up every statement I have made. Google ‘repeal of Posse Comitatus’ or ‘Jose Padilla’ or ‘Military Commissions act of 2007″ or ‘warrantless wiretapping’)


#78 Bleupea 22 April 2008 at 07:11 am

Well said J.K. I tried to say essentially the same thing, but it would appear that you are much more eloquent than I am.
One of my favorite things about reading these articles is the comment section. The comments start out basically on topic and then somehow landslide to a little off topic to a whole other world in entirety.
I especially enjoy how several people (who of course have the right to their opinions and the right to voice them) turn a shameful chunk of history pie into “see this is why I hate America.” I’m sorry to point this out to you, but whatever country your from, your history isn’t all perfect and rose-colored either. If there was a story here on something horrid that Churchill did in an effort to preserve England, or for whatever means, I wouldn’t say, “see, this is why I hate Brits.”


#79 s2dk 22 April 2008 at 07:48 am

The world should seriously cut the States some slack. So many countries have done, and are currently doing SO MUCH WORSE. At least the States is trying to help out… somewhat.


#80 Bleupea 22 April 2008 at 08:17 am

I’m sorry, I just realized that should be “…whatever country you’re from…” not “your”. My humble apologies. :-)


#81 floatingk 22 April 2008 at 09:20 am

Is this in any way related to the false german weather stations that were planted on the northeast coast. I believe they just found one a couple (15) years ago?


#82 Drzanky 22 April 2008 at 09:26 am

Of course, we must beleive on a group of criminals that risk their lives to get here iligally knowing that if they were cought only death await. Don’t even think on beliving some of the people that would die to protect America, and is still getting kill doing the same. By the way this is the same version publish by the Nazi party, and of course they never lie. Do some research, get Mr J. Cullen version of event, also the reason why Dash and Burger were not executed was because they were american citizens. Dash confess to planning bombing several production plants, bridges and damn. He just freakout when thay couldn’t find their explosive and the FBI was waiting for them THE NEXT DAY to arrest them, this fantasy describe about goes for weeks, but they were capture the very next day after their arrival. The reason why Hoveer keep the secret was because 4 DAYS LATER (not weeks) another group of Nazis landed in Florida, and they were not on vacation. Dash give the information because he was toll he will be pardon, but honestly I think he should have got the shit kick out of him with the information, but the FBI decided to respect the Geneva convention and just llie to him.


#83 Drzanky 22 April 2008 at 09:28 am

You can google everything I said on my previous post, is not that hard, don’t let people misguide you.


#84 Radiatidon 22 April 2008 at 10:33 am

How these men were finally treated is shameful if all facts as stated are true. One can never fully be sure unless you research both sides of an issue then make a judgment. Basing your opinion on ½ the story… well, its just asinine. You have to realize that Hawaii was infiltrated by Japanese spies, some that had lived there for years before being approached and ask to spy. War operates under its own rules. Can you really trust that these people were being fully truthful? How about that US couple that were spying for the USSR? Their neighbors, even friends were totally shocked. They didn’t know.

I must point out that many German prisoners that were interred in the USA during the war actually faired better than those in other countries. I’m not positive on this one, but I think those kept in England were also treated better than other countries.

Many of the German POW camps were located in the West, away from major industries. I know of several located in the state I live in now. Some of the POWs retuned after going home to live here. I personally know of one Austrian couple where the husband was captured in Africa and sent here. He spent almost three years as a POW in America. After the war, he returned to Austria, found his wife, then returned here and started a business.

Whenever he talks about the Nazis he becomes angry. He talks about the anti-American propaganda he was fed. How much hatred he felt about the half-breeds living in poverty in America waiting to spill out into other countries polluting them with their ill-conceived ways and inferior children.

He started to doubt what he was taught when he saw not ill-formed half-breeds in New York, but people like himself, smartly dressed and polite. As the train took him and other POWs across US soil, he was amazed at the wealth this country actually had, not to mention the size. Amazed at how many Americans owned and drove personal vehicles. America was huge, were he and his countrymen crazy enough to believe that they could really concur America. In case you did not know, Hitler had plans to invade before the USA even considered entering the war. Europe was not his only goal.

Once in camp, he learned not to fear the US guards but the Nazi interred there. Of the Germans and Austrians it was the Nazis that were the most dangerous. The American guards were very friendly and would share a smoke, even chocolate if asked. But one had to be careful least the Nazis considered you an enemy collaborator (more than one supposed POW turncoat had committed suicide with convenient, well written notes left behind before the die-hard nazis were finally rounded up and shipped elsewhere). The camp guards rarely asked what the POWs knew about Germany and the Nazi’s plans. That had been done back in Africa, then New York.

The best part of the interment was when they asked if any of the prisoners wanted work duty. This meant leaving the prison and working at local farms or doing roadwork. Planting, harvesting, repairing roofs, painting… this gave the men something to do. At first many considered trying to run, but before long they were convinced that this was not that bad, especially since they were also being paid for their labors. Though they did not receive cash outright, they had a form of banking account that they could draw on to purchase things. The money was also given to them with interest after the war. One enterprising German purchased a crud printing press and published a small paper. The camp supplied the paper for free and he made his ink from charcoal and local clay. One of the guards, a Native American, taught him how to create ink this way. He even supplied different color clays so that the paper could have colored sections. It contained camp news, New York Stock information, American comics, and general news about the war effort in Africa and Europe. He sold it for five cents a copy. Even the American guards purchased his “English” version of the paper.

The food they received was good and plentiful. Many had never eaten as good since the war began back in Europe. Some of the men gained so much weight that they burst the back of their trousers. They repaired their clothes using old US soldiers uniforms or by purchasing marked clothing from the prison store. Many received Medical and Dental of which they could only dream of back in Europe. They also had cinema Friday and Saturday nights. This usually was a newsreel, then a cartoon, finally the main feature. He said the best ones were when the cartoon was replaced by a comedy; Abbot and Costello were a favorite.

The news about Germany was always welcomed, but many became discouraged when they realized she was losing the war. Once a prisoner was interred from the Western Front, his stories of the horror of the Cossack changed many of the die-hards about the Americans. More and more of the prisoners thanked God in their prayers that they had been captured by American Soldiers and sent here.

He also told me that when he returned to Austria, other POWs that had been kept in Europe shared their stories. Of the hardships and torture many German POWs had witnessed in Poland, France, Brussels, Italy… The inhumane conditions and high mortality rate whispered about USSR camps, though no one knew of anyone who had either escaped or been released from one. Tails of POW camps with no shelter and simple slit trenches with logs for toilets. Beatings, torture, no medical, rotten or no food at all. It was these things that changed his mind about America. It was these things that caused him to leave his beloved Austria and seek citizenship in America.

So if America was so hard on POWs, why did some return with their families and become American citizens? Many of the old German soldiers who moved here after the war have died so I cannot ask their reasons. But the ones I have inquired told me it was because how there were treated by the American soldiers and citizens. Guess that not all of America is bad, as many believe, unless you enjoy the verbal crap of anti-American vocalizations. Best to base one’s opinion on actually visiting America for a month or so, and not just one area.

But then again that’s my opinion, and I have traveled to other countries. Which is why I think people are good in general, it is really too bad that the high profile ones, or evil ones that the media loves to focus on, gives people and their country such a bad reputation.

Sorry for the long post – The Don wheezes – well my lung hurts so need to quit for now.

The Don


#85 Jack Olson 22 April 2008 at 12:10 pm

Would you be proud to live in a country where your government has the “legal” right to indefinitely detain citizens without charge, or bring those citizens before a tribunal for a “trial” where they are not allowed to even see, let alone refute, the evidence against them, or where all your communications are subject to surveillance, all in the name of national security?

If you did live in such a country, you would be living in the United States under Abraham Lincoln, and yes, I would be proud to do so. While I don’t have anything to hide, I do have plenty to fear and I fear people who would hijack the airliner I’m riding so they can fly it into a public building. Or, set off bombs in night clubs or on subways. Or machine-gun hundreds of people in an elementary school. Or simply kidnap me and videotape themselves sawing my head off. For that matter, I’m not too keen on people who murder strangers with suicide belts and car bombs. If anything, I want to know how government can stop such heinous conduct. But, what if their way of stopping it involves arresting people and holding them without trial, or tapping their phone without warrants? If I object to such methods on the ground that they diminish civil liberty, then I bear the burden of recommending ways to stop terrorism without them. Simply tolerating periodic mass murders is no solution. That is merely surrender to the murderers.

So, tell me, Cyclops, just how would you thwart the terrorists without either resorting to the methods you object to or letting them continue their heinous crimes with impunity? We need a practical solution, since giving Patrick Henry his second choice would keep him from enjoying the first.


#86 Bleupea 22 April 2008 at 12:20 pm

Jack Olson said: ” We need a practical solution, since giving Patrick Henry his second choice would keep him from enjoying the first.”

Excellent :-)


#87 stholas 22 April 2008 at 12:27 pm

Greetings all. First post for me on this site, so I guess I’ll go ahead and say ‘First!’. Boy that was fulfilling! We are all responsible for war; as a human race we haven’t been able to look past culture, race and religion. Survival of the fittest is the law of nature, and I guess we should all be thankful to have made it this far. While most of us want peace and better understanding now, world politics are still governed by ignorami who are steeped in religious and/or racial prejudice. Sorry to say this, but hating another nation or it’s people will not solve the problem. Hate is the reason for all this in the first place, so I suppose you’re attitude is just as much to blame. Americans, in general, are quite wonderful people, and they will support any effort that they believe protects their nation and their people. There’s nothing wrong with that. Blame the propagandist government and the idiot that’s currently running it. At least they weren’t able to plant WMDs in Iraq, and then claim to find it. Maybe not all hope is lost.
I am also fairly convinced that Radiatidon cannot be one person. That much knowledge in one brain would cause it to swell and collapse into a black hole under it’s own weight. Cheers.


#88 Zenesque 22 April 2008 at 01:29 pm

Very interesting article. It is hard to be entirely sure about anything. I have trouble believing anything I read or hear. Even our own senses and memory can be misleading. There is a constant battle fought in our minds between logic and emotion, between memories and desires, between the egoistic and the altruistic and between what we see and what we want to see. This limbo of uncertainty can lead to non-action, which some view as a bad thing, but certain eastern philosophies view as a good thing. Everything we do or say is based on incomplete evidence. Therefore, we must be as sure as we can be, before we take any action. We must also be willing to take responsibility for our actions, whatever they might lead to. This is my rational anarchist point of view.

“Nothing is true. Everything is permissable.”

Also, Radiatidon might just be a person with significant amount of life experience, who prefers reading and research over American Idol, or he might be a group of people, like The Bard and Sun Tzu are sometimes thougth to have been.


#89 Rockadilly 22 April 2008 at 03:06 pm

stholas said: “I am also fairly convinced that Radiatidon cannot be one person. That much knowledge in one brain would cause it to swell and collapse into a black hole under it’s own weight. Cheers.”

Zenesque said: “Also, Radiatidon might just be a person with significant amount of life experience, who prefers reading and research over American Idol, or he might be a group of people, like The Bard and Sun Tzu are sometimes thougth to have been.”

Actually mates, I think your both on the right path about Donnie. Reading his past personal posts, I feel that this bloke might have some voices, mental ones. No offense Donnie, I believe that you are one very intriguing Yank and would love to meet ya.

I know that if I had endured some of Donnie’s torture that my mind would have shattered. Going mental I believe the kids call it. I would like to think that I could have been just as strong a man that Donnie is, considering the things he told us about, and things he has not. Reading his posts I find him very childish at times yet also very mature in a respectful way, if you know what I mean. But a very intelligent Yank.

Thats my view, now time to get the coffee and off to manage my fence this morning. G-day.

Thanks Donnie, this is one Aussie that tips his hat to you for sharing.


#90 doubletrinity 22 April 2008 at 07:37 pm

I have been told that all’s fair in war. I personally wouldn’t know. But I suppose I couldn’t judge Mr. Hoover too harshly, he did what he thought he had to in order to keep his country safe. If that was his driving motive.
However, that doesn’t mean that I have to like it.
Certainly, times are hard, and it would be difficult to walk out of your homes wondering, as some Americans clearly do, whether they are about to be attacked again. But does that make it okay for the government to suspend some pretty basic rights? Just because the accused isn’t American? Practical solutions are needed, but I personally don’t think that they should be implemented at the cost of one’s human rights.
But then again, I’m young and naive. I still think that governments -for all their power and prestige – are still just public servants. Really high ranking ones, of course. But they’re here to keep my rights safe, not take them away.


#91 oneeyechuck 22 April 2008 at 07:57 pm

Jack, I don’t have the complete, practical answer on how to stop terrorists who don’t care whether or not they die. Maybe the only solution is to trample on the Bill of Rights. (Even armed with such power, the government hasn’t been able to put much of a dent in the drug trade.) Maybe the libertarians are right and we need need to arm everyone but the legally insane. Either method is unlikely to stop truly determined and resourceful people who are hell bent to make martyrs of themselves.

In a (totally hypothetical) perfect world, people would be taught that human life is worthy of respect, in and of itself, and while we’re at it, why not incorporate the ideal of infinite diversity in infinite combination (with apologies to Gene Roddenberry). Until that day comes, I will stand by my earlier statement, and I really do mean that I would rather die under a terrorist’s knife, than to live under tyranny. (I can only hope I wouldn’t pee on myself, if it came to that.) The Founders risked a noose or death on a battlefield for the chance to start a great experiment in Liberty and Democracy, if your’s is the prevailing attitude, they took those risks in vain.
Monocularly yours, Chuck


#92 Bewildered 22 April 2008 at 09:15 pm

This sort of story is the rule not the exception – Why is it that the American people can’t see this? You seem so shocked… It’ll ‘never happen to you’ though, so just sit back and believe what the media tells you. :-)


#93 Silverhill 22 April 2008 at 09:17 pm

oneeyechuck, good points. Glad to have you commenting here, with substance and clarity.

You mentioned wanting to code for links to supporting material…here’s how, if you want to give it a try.
[a href="URL"]label[/a]
—the quote marks are necessary; put between them the URL to which you wish to link
—if you want to give your reference a concise label, put it between the HTML tags
—you must use angle brackets instead of square brackets; I put square ones so the blog software wouldn’t try to interpret the dummy example as real HTML tags, thereby concealing their structure


#94 markda1 22 April 2008 at 09:24 pm

Just because the accused isn’t American?

Americans have rights given to them by their duly elected government, non-Americans do not. America was strengthened by the “huddled masses” in the 19th and early 20th centuries but I think those times are long over. If you are legally born in this country, or have gone through the process of legal naturalization, you’re an American in my book.

Either method is unlikely to stop truly determined and resourceful people who are hell bent to make martyrs of themselves.

Hey OEC, what say let’s let the the determined zealots make martyrs of themselves in their own country?


#95 Falco Peregrinus 23 April 2008 at 04:01 am

Inline with the current course of the comments I can’t help but wonder why the 2008 U.S. Presidential Candidates have not stated or been asked what course of action they will take regarding the state of the writ of habeas corpus and unwarranted mass surveillance/wiretapping once in office, or say after the activity/personnel level in Iraq and/or Afghanistan is under an established threshold. Setting the seeds for a garden of non-answers to take root. Although they may have stated their opinions/intentions about those topics already that I haven’t heard. Wordy rant over.


#96 Two Cents from Girth 23 April 2008 at 06:36 am

Well Falco,
Those are all good tools to the party in power… If Democrats had those powers in the White House, the Republicans would be fuming, that is why you hear the whining from faceless groups complaining of civil rights infringements. Given that there is a chance that there is a chance for a Democrat to sit in the White House, it is best if they dont demonize those powers before they get a chance to use them. Once their use is at an end, they can say how bad they were and assign regulators to watch the regulators, all very efficient government protocal…
Much like big business. If you are doing the right thing, why you you mind Big Brother??? Iam one of the people who believe I’d rather be watched than blown up. I’d say another issue that is being glossed over is lets say the rest of the important isssues!!!! Ohh like immigration, social security, the war, our debt as a nation, how to curb this defeatists ideal some of us have adopted and how to withdraw a bit from world affairs. As usual, this is an election and what you dont want to do as a candidate is be nailed down to actually discussing topics that you dont have a solution to; it is best just to preach about change in general because change naturally comes…and of course keep your face on the TV so people can see you, not nessecarily hear anyof the junk your spilling, just see you. One of these days we will have a candidate just go up there and stand and not say a word; I may very well think that person would be making alot of sense :)
As to the article, yeah I am sure that sort of thing happened/happens, humans are humans flawed with stupidity and adgendas. What is also important to remember is when we get it right, like when we cracked a code of Imperial Japan and sent 4 carriers to the bottom based on intelligence getting it right. Minus four carries, the Imp. Navy was no longer able to lord over the seas and production could not easily replace those. How about how we were able to smuggle out tens of thousands of Jews, Dutch, Slavs out of Europe before we acknowledged the “work camps”, again intel played a key part. Cracking enigma, shooting down Yamamoto, the phantom army of Patton, folks, we have many great sucesses that turned tides of battles, wars and events. Yes, we fall on our face at times and when we fall, people get hurt, even killed.
I believe the thoughts and actions of those eight, at times were to betray and do harm to our nation, for that, they are traitors and deserve punishment. As for a traitor or spy gone bad, those are the first that should be shot. Do you really believe he had a profound change of heart or did he simply have the heart of a traitor?? A dishwasher…a amn goes all his working life and he is a dishwasher, of course he is going to sell out for $80,000 1940′s dollars and betray America. He was approached, he accepted, he was trained, paid, he was given a team, he was transported, he landed, his traitors heart betrayed him again, got scared and ran again… The minute he took the money his fate was sealed, this is no intrigue, this is a double cross. Double adgents are historically a risky business and I’d sentence all I come across if I was on a tribunal.
As far as the FBI is concerned, yes, they did not get it right and Hoover had his own slant on things and his adgenda including protecting the name of the FBI and his own ego, no question.
How many calls, walk ins and other far fetched claims do you think come across the desk of the FBI??? I’d say quite a few a day. How many threats, scares, conspiracies?? I think in some cases we are slowed by honesty and miss the obvious big picture. Pearl Harbor, “work camps”, Wake not getting reinforced, P.I. getting isolated, lack of involvement in China for them WWII started in the early 30′s and millions were lost, we sat and watched…, the war raged in Europe for two plus years, we watched and sold weapons. So no, we have not always been a clear thinking people when it comes to the caring of other people. We do it all the time, we are doing it now. In the Sudan, thousands are being killed, we do nothing; here is where I leave the bleeding heart boat, I nothing is what we should do… We have no real interest in the area ands have scant ties to the region, why should this be our mess, isnt this one of the countires of France or England, arent other countries with militaries capable of quelling the disagreement closer to the conflict, cant they do what is right. Here is the thing with the media, it takes away our surprise and deniablity. There will be some people that will still act surprised and ask “Why didnt we do anything” after the tradegdy is over and in the books. We have a long list of those kind of chapters and after the tenth or so drama, the same story of compassion after the fact gets old. You know as well as I do in ten years, we will but the Bosnia and Sudanese incidents in a history book and a teacher will stand at the front of the class and pine over the dead and say, “see now, we are a better people and would never let that happen again”. Just like our economists say “Our economy will never suffer from the problems we had in the past”, they may be right, but there will be new problems.
Thank you sharing in my rant :)


#97 Bleupea 23 April 2008 at 07:39 am

Two Cents from Girth:
The problem is that as a nation we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. If we get involved with foreign nations then we can’t mind our own business and we’re trying to “conquer” weaker nations (I’m not referring to Iraq here, I don’t want to open up that can of worms), but if we sit back and say, well this really isn’t our problem, we’re a cold-hearted, greedy, capitalistic nation that only looks out for numero uno. There is no solution that is going to satisfy everyone, ever. The only thing we can do is try our hardest to be good people and elect good people and overlook unjust criticisms from others and learn from the mistakes we as a nation have made.
Personally, I think it is time that we, oh blast, I can’t remember what it was called. Which President was it that insisted that we focus solely on ourselves? Dang! I can’t remember!
Anyway, I think it is time that we try to repair our community and morale for a period of about 20-30 years and ignore foreign affairs all together. It seems that’s what the worldwide community wants us to do anyhow. Lets not go anywhere until we’re “invited”.
If anyone can tell me what that doctrine was, I’d totally appreciate it. This is going to drive me crazy!


#98 Jared Lessl 23 April 2008 at 08:32 am

Americans have rights given to them by their duly elected government, non-Americans do not.

Which ones? Please enumerate the rights denied by law to non-citizens living in US territory.

I’ll give you a hint, things like “freedom of speech” and “right to a trial” aren’t on that list.


#99 Two Cents from Girth 23 April 2008 at 09:12 am

#97 Bluepea!
Drawing a blank on Isolationism?? Wilson and Roosevelt were strong Isolationists, to delay involvement in WWI and WWII; as was G.Washington that warned against “entering into foreign entanglements”. I think our economy after WWII really benifited from a “World Market” but by the 60′s, the advantages were being edoded away. Of course I am in the camp of take care of ourselves first, then worry about the rest of the world. Just because we helped start Globalization does mean we get to finish on top… I believe we can manufacture and produce all we “need” as a people, we are just really spoiled with all the extras; a nice problem to have. :) There is an inherent friction between protective foreign tariffs and free trade, again a catch 22. Obviously, I think we would do well to do what is to our greater advantage.


#100 Two Cents from Girth 23 April 2008 at 09:21 am

Again #97 Bluepea
I am sure you know most of the countries are sitting back looking out for numero uno when they point their finger and say:”we’re a cold-hearted, greedy, capitalistic nation that only looks out for numero uno.” It is amazing how broke they are when it comes time to help or tune up a neighbor; but have millions to throw parades and erect statues so the people can see the benevelant leadership…
gag,gag,gag hehehehe


#101 Two Cents from Girth 23 April 2008 at 09:24 am

Sorry, on comment #99:
It should read: does NOT mean we will end up on top. The bit about Globalization…
Again,
Sorry


#102 2cents 23 April 2008 at 09:26 am

wOw,
Lotsa x-hippies wandered from the commune onto the internet. Who says LSD doesnt have residual effects. Hate ‘The Man”, “The Gov.”, “Authority”, “Srength”, “Resolve” etc.
Love and peace only work in your own house. The States give away a hell of a lot along with taking a lot. Overall The States are kinder to the world than it is to it.


#103 Bleupea 23 April 2008 at 10:36 am

Thanks Two Cents from Girth, I can rest in peace now :)

2cents said: “Overall The States are kinder to the world than it is to it.”

I would agree, but I think I’m slightly biased :)


#104 markda1 23 April 2008 at 11:17 am

Jared Lessl said: “Which ones? Please enumerate the rights denied by law to non-citizens living in US territory.

I’ll give you a hint, things like “freedom of speech” and “right to a trial” aren’t on that list.”

Hey Jared, non-Americans are illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants should not have rights in this country, but unfortunately they do. I wonder if anyone thinks that if an American committed crimes in another country they would be treated the same as we treat foreigners in ours?
I really think that the liberal, bleeders in this thread would be ultimately happier if the US rolled over and exposed its soft underbelly to the rest of the world and let them, and the cowardly so called jihadists of the so-called “peaceful” Muslim religion eviscerate us. The governments of the world, including the US, have a right to do anything in their power to protect their citizens and interests. I also think that America is better at respecting human rights that most other nations, and we’re more tolerant of dissent than just about any other nation. Overall we’re a benevolent nation that gives mightily when the need arises and strikes our enemies with the appropriate amount of force to protect our country from those who wish to destroy us. I don’t have a problem with that.


#105 stholas 23 April 2008 at 11:31 am

markda1 said: “Hey Jared, non-Americans are illegal immigrants.quote]

Er….some of us are here on work and student visas……are we illegal??? Damn, I hadn’t realized!!


#106 stholas 23 April 2008 at 11:38 am

stholas said: “Er….some of us are here on work and student visas……are we illegal??? Damn, I hadn’t realized!!”

Either way, I should just shut up, as it turns out I don’t have freedom of speech. I will now go ask my coworkers if it’s allright if I spoke to them. Peace. LSD beckons.


#107 Bleupea 23 April 2008 at 12:09 pm

stholas:
Not to get into this whole immigration conversation, but if you have a valid visa, then you aren’t an illegal immigrant because you’re here legally.
You don’t need to shut-up, but perhaps you should use the opportunity your visa has given you to study the difference between legal and illegal, it really isn’t that difficult.


#108 stholas 23 April 2008 at 12:34 pm

Bleupea said: “stholas:
Not to get into this whole immigration conversation, but if you have a valid visa, then you aren’t an illegal immigrant because you’re here legally.
You don’t need to shut-up, but perhaps you should use the opportunity your visa has given you to study the difference between legal and illegal, it really isn’t that difficult.”

Actually, I could use the dictionary to study that difference, I don’t really need a visa – dictionaries are readily available in my hometown, and over the internet. Does the word ‘humor’ mean anything to you, or do you need a visa to study that? Anyway, my comment was directed at the gentleman who commented that all non-Americans are illegal immigrants. Perhaps he needs a visa? Or a degree? I have both!


#109 Bleupea 23 April 2008 at 12:52 pm

I didn’t realize you were attempting to be humorous.
What I got out of Markda1′s comment was that he doesn’t feel that people who are here illegally have the right to the same protections those who are here legally have the right to. I’m sure he knows that there are non-Americans who are here legally, but simply ignored or perhaps even forgot about them.
I don’t need a visa to study humor, all I need is access to any of Monty Python’s classics.


#110 stholas 23 April 2008 at 02:09 pm

No worries. I will make the attempt to make my humor funny, so there is no more confusion in the future. We are discussing a non-issue here.


#111 markda1 23 April 2008 at 02:27 pm

I was going to re-read my earlier comments about who’s legal and who isn’t, but I decided not to based on the fact that most people know whether or not they are breaking laws, rules, etc. Bleupea is right, I think that if someone is here legally, i.e. having a work or student visa and following the rules attached to them, then they are not illegal immigrants, although they still aren’t Americans. I don’t think I would be considered French or Italian just because I was living and working or going to school in those countries. The sad fact is that a good number of immigrants “jump ahead” of the legal processes to get into this country and ruin it for everyone else. The general public, especially in immigrant infested areas of the country are tired of the costs associated with illegal immigration, both in public dollars spent, lower quality of life and in lives lost.
Stholas said he or she had a degree and a visa, good for him or her. The gracious United States has given you permission to study at one of our fine universities, or needs your intellect in some aspect of our economy. You’re still not an American and will always be subject to deportation if you misbehave. I for one support fully more stringent controls and monitoring of alien visas, work or otherwise. I hear they are working on some. RF chips would be good.


#112 stholas 23 April 2008 at 02:30 pm

OK. Fine. Agreed. Can we drop it now?


#113 Two Cents from Girth 23 April 2008 at 02:30 pm

Ladies and Gentelmen, this concludes another chapter in the “Flying Circus” of symantics. Join us next time as we hold trial other crucial topics Regarding “the Life of Brian”, a story of a legal immigrant with a visa mind you in search of his “Grail” in a land frought with danger, ignorance and adventure. It is always our pleasure to entertain, enlighten and inform the masses as we search tirelessly for the “meaning of life”. When we happen on occasion to look for “something completely different”, we may at times look to the “Hollywood Bowl” to gain a fresh, new and albiet incoorect perspective . If after an exhausting search reveals no difinative answers, you may just want to “Go Solo” for a bit. So dont mind us in our “Life on Drury Lane”, just have a “Ball”. A good evening to you all, or day or perhaps even morning. “Can it be morning right now somewhere?” Que a voice from behind the stage: “Yes, but good evening will suffice.” “Wont that start a new symantic circus?” Again the voice, “Just end the bloody note!!” See, that last bit was British and humor, almost a contridiction in itself, wouldnt you say?
Again, appologies for drifting off subject, those responsible have been sacked…etc etc etc


#114 oneeyechuck 23 April 2008 at 04:09 pm

Holy Crap! In no way was I suggesting that we lock down the borders. All of the issues raised in these comments (immigration, trade, “foreign entanglements”, terrorism, liberty vs. security, etc.) have no easy solutions. I believe in absolutes as ideals to strive for, especially if we wish to regain our standing a a world leader in human rights. I don’t recall any passage in any founding documents that said that these rights were granted by the government to the people. It’s the other way around, We the People grant these powers to the government! (Nor do I recall that such rights are denied to non-citizens.) At the same time, I also know that almost no political issue can be treated as if it were a simple yes/no problem, or as if it were in a vacuum. All actions (or non-actions) have consequences, and in most cases, a lot of them are unforeseen (or willfully not seen).
If we were to close the borders and throw out those who are here illegally, a lot of industries would suffer. I am the kind of person who would (and at one point did) scrub toilets if that’s what I had to do to put food on the table. I have seen too many (mostly young) people refuse to take such menial jobs to think that “illegals” are taking only “good ‘Merican’s” jobs and I have seen an influx of workers willing to take jobs for lower pay drive wages down (primarily in construction). I also wonder how many Einsteins or Tesla s (I could go on a side rant about the injustices done to the “father” of modern AC current, but I won’t) we would deny the opportunities available in this country. There are no easy solutions, but suggesting simplistic fixes to complicated problems is, imho, worse than not having any ideas at all because such ideas only reinforce the “all-problems-can-be-fixed-by-the-end-of-a-thirty-minute-TV-episode” thinking that there is too much of already.
Killing people, except in immediate defense of oneself or others, is wrong. Torturing people is wrong (not to mention that it garners more bad intelligence than good) no matter what the motive. Listening to my phone calls, reading my e-mails, or searching my home without a warrant, properly based on probable cause is wrong! How long until one of our current or future “Leaders” uses the powers of the unitary executive to start throwing political rivals or their supporters in jail for dissent?
There’s a reason that Orwell wrote “Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.” That reason is that statement is true! Fascists always have an enemy to point to, to scare the population. “We are doing this for your protection.” Forgive me if I’m not filled with gratitude as a boot grinds into the face of a peaceful protester, or the SWAT team breaks down the wrong door on a no-knock warrant.
I’ll end this rant with a quote from one of my favorite Founders. “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin (oh, and thanks to Silverhill for the coding advice. Sometimes I don’t have time to RTFM)


#115 yojimbo30 23 April 2008 at 05:37 pm

Christopher S. Putnam,

Sloppiest DI articular I’ve yet read. The ridiculous discussion in comments is endemic of its sloppiness. Eight men, out of uniform, in possession of explosives and arms, infiltrated our defense grid, came upon our shores, and were, gosh darn it, just misunderstood. Is that your point? What a joke.

You invoke perspective and emotionality on the micro level while failing to put it in the context of the macro. Millions were dying around the globe at the hands of a planetary conflict. And in the middle of this greatest period of violence ever known, these eight men (two really) thought they could pretend to be spies to get back to their loved ones? Sorry, but your attempt at to create pity for them is trite. Those men were engaged in one of the deadliest games and they lost. Hoover, who was an odd bird, at least had the foresight to pursue a major psychological victory against Nazi Germany. It paid off. The cost? Six spies/saboteurs went to their deaths and two fools went to prison. In context to the massive death toll that WWII wrought, that is a small price to pay. I do not say this lightly.

The FBI made and will continue to make blunders, but they also do and have done a lot of good work. They are not all powerful, but the perception that they hold such power, when applied correctly and with extreme prejudice, is a very useful tool at keeping our enemies at bay. Events such as Pastorius, although an ugly business, helped give us that tool.

Their hastily assembled tribunal will also be looked to as the model for any future prosecution of “unlawful combatants.”

If you want to drag current events into your DI articles, I’m all for it, but avoid loaded and overly simplified sentences like the above. The bias of the contemporary is an easy pit to fall into and I think this article has taken the plunge. I’ve come to expect better writing from DI. This is article is not up to par.


#116 Two Cents from Girth 23 April 2008 at 06:46 pm

Great explanation 1idchuck and yojimbo30 some good hard nosed points.
Now for some of mine…
Are our cell phone calls and emails really “essential rights”??? As opposed to our right to defended borders from enemies both foriegn and domestic… Listen to my phone calls and keep illegals out!! They endanger my right to the pursuit of happiness because they make me pay more taxes to support them and their childerens education. Would our educational system be better if we could teach in one language and use all the funds for one unified purpose, a little e plurabis unum in the hall of academia or does that violate someones rights??? How about my right not to have illegal foreigners walking on our land? This is not Zenophobic, it is America…
the laws of the land, this land, say that is my right to expect that! On a side note, I am kind of pissed, I had a small book going and my trusty laptop erased it… so this is the pissed off condensed version. :)
People are running around saying rights for this and rights for that. How many rights does a criminal have? NONE!!!! They forfieted those when they turned their back on our laws!!!
Lets build the wall! Take our prison guards,Nat. Guard, reserves and border patrol to our borders, sound creul? They are our military and peace keepers… where else are they going to defend our borders??? duhhhh… as an all volunteer force if the border is not your kind of place, dont enlist, one of your many rights!! See, your rights are not being curtailed here. Now that we have our forces disributed like they should be, bring in the prisoners and illegals to build the wall. Closer to a fact than a sterotype, how many Hispanics have you met that can not learn to work concrete? No seriously…
Our prisoners need to be taught that crime is not the answer, working on the wall would reduce our 1% of our total population in incarceration. It would let them earnestly pay their debt to us with not only their time but sweat and possibly blood. Is that cruel to make a man labor under the sun? No, cruel is, I pay the taxes so they can get three squares, watch tv and tell each other how bad ass they are. I wake up and go to work, I abide the law and I am free.
I expect a prisoner to have it rougher than me, so labor in the sun like I do… learn that crime is not the way. Deter future criminals with the sweat of their labor, show that criminal getting worked like he is rented on the Hollywood screen. Let the media show the tired, dirty line of criminals coming back from a hard, hot days work and see how many new criminals enter our prisons… Our illegals can serve a manditory sentence with or with out the support of their native government, if they dont like it let them stop their people at the borders and stop printing books to encourage border crossings.
How much money has my plan spent so far??? Have resources been missused??? Guards guard. Prisoners work, if they work well they may be set free… how many rights have been truely violated. Being a criminal and not wanting to something and being required to do something anyway is not a rights violation folks, it is a sentence. Pay the price for ones actions.
Responsibility… when the wall is built, release the illegals and explain to them the only thing waiting for you on this side are spotlights, guard dogs and bullets.
Sound tough? good, keep your body in your own country unless we give our permission.
The free ride has to end!!!! Can we simply find enough concrete and wire to build a wall?? Heck we could even volunteer? Lose 20 million who dont pay taxes and I guarentee we will be better off. We can find people to work, we have millions of able bodied but troubled because they made/make poor choices that would gladly work instead of starve… Get a welfare check? How much work is required? Get food stamps? After how many hours of work? This will open the door to policies of who I really am about.
Enter the “New Style”:
Now, when someone is truly incapacitated, too old, really handicapped or injured, plenty of money will be at our disposal. A veteran goes to war for me and you, comes back without a leg, that soldier rolls in cash for the rest of that soldiers days. A teacher teachs for thirty years and is ravaged by time, money is there to provide. A daddy is killed fighting a fire, college funds are waiting, a home is paid for, good food is on the table. A bullet finds the cop on a cold winter night, the heat and lights stay on at his house forever… You see the ones in true need and that have sacrificed will be cared for and greatly rewarded. That is how America should be. A able bodied bum on welfare needs a good woopin, reminder and an education. My bar for America is high, I dont plan to lower my expectations anytime soon, so some of the people around me just need to pull their heads out. Go look in the mirror, We the People are great and can be greater yet… strong, determined and free! We have lost sight of some of these things with all the far fetched openness of our great experiement, we can only stretch self evident truths so far before they rend and responsibilty is handed to someone else. I want my responsibility and accountablity because that helps insure my rights and freedoms, in turn it binds others to those same standards, a pillar of the community that has been lost to us. Is any of this sinking in?? We are a great nation of all sorts of people and others would do well not to look down our throats for teeth.


#117 markda1 23 April 2008 at 07:16 pm

yojimbo30 said: “The ridiculous discussion in comments is endemic of its sloppiness.”

I don’t think that the discussion that ensued was ridiculous at all. The slathering of liberal opinion on the supposed trampling by the military tribunals of these poor oppressed German terrorists of their non-existent basic human rights was laughable. I still say that all is fair in love and war.


#118 Astrophysician 23 April 2008 at 07:33 pm

DI!

J. Edgar Hoover was a dick, plain and simple. Effective (a matter of opinion?), but still a dick.


#119 JJ10 24 April 2008 at 01:53 am

It just dawned on me while reading all this right wing protectionist propoganda, your all terrified. You make out to be big brave patriots, your actually a bunch of trembling cowards.
Your scared somebody will take your job (well do a better job then and that won’t be a risk), your scared somebody is going to invade and terrorise your country (well stop persecuting the vunerable then and maybe less people will want to kill you) , your scared the USA will no longer be top dog (well stop fighting wars with everyone who has a different outlook than you and re-invest the money in technical R&D and fight your way back to the top of the pile through fair means).
Your just SCARED! I could go on, but I know many of you all a bit too far gone to change …..


#120 yojimbo30 24 April 2008 at 02:36 am

JJ10–
Concise and articulate observations, shall we say, are not your strong suits. Do I have fear? Absolutely, every rational human being does. Do your sophomoric observations about the USA and suggested corrections have anything to do with these fears? Hardly. Right wing, left wing, centrists — ALL — bring valid ideas to the table. This fact is the fist and central tenant of this nation and what made it “top dog” in the first place. It’s what ‘open minded’ really means and clearly THAT scares you. And before we deal the cards again, go look up the word propaganda — I’m sick of the ignorant masses misuse of it.


#121 Treblaine 24 April 2008 at 02:37 am

Remeber, Dash and Burger did avoid execution and after the war they were pardoned (oh the ‘Great Satan’ is trully without mercy {sarcasm}), but the other six payed with their life because they honestly showed no sign of turning themselves in. Confession to you crimes is not an automatic get out of jail free card, on cannot kill a man and then simply turns ones self in, as if the secrecy of the act was the only crime.
The second they landed on American soil with explosives and a mission of destruction they had already commited a hanus crime, sabotage, that is illegal even under the rules of war. It is clear from the atttacks on the 11th of Septemeber how much carnage can be wrecked by a few determined men.
The six who were executed where caught red handed and the fact that Dasch didn’t try to get them to surrended did kind of indicated that they would have stayed true to the mission. These were not “spies”, they were what would have been called saboteurs and would now be called terrorists.
If just one member of terrorist cell defects, How does that excuse his confederates who seem completely oblivious to going turncoat. Burger and Dasch got a long time in prison but only because did they turn themselves in and betray their confederates were they spared, the other six showed no intention of turning themselves in and would simply continue with their deadly mission.

Some of these comments about America (and in other places, Israel as well) being a brutal oppressor reminds me of when i was a boy in school. I was overweight and bullied a lot, my plumby english acceent stood out a lot in a Scottish state school and i was teased mercilesly to the point where no one would want to have anything to do with me and though i hated the people who abused me i kept trying to convince myself that they were “only words” and i should just ignore them.
Till one day this kid went too far and was making sexual comments and trying to impress his lackeys, he was browbeating me to the point where i would break down and cry. This was a bully’s favorite tactic. He never hit me, but he constantly threatened to and wouldn’t let me leave. i couldnt take it any more and swung out at him, hitting him square in the arm, i couldn’t believe it when he went crashing down screaming and then i saw the teacher.
The bully milked his “wound” for all its worth and i got a weeks detention for bullying while i got a brow beating from my teacher for being a sociopath for daring to strike another student.

He and others hated me because he thought i was a rich, posh git and whipped up the hatred in others to make my childhood hell and i was punished mercilessly for daring to stand up to them. I can relate to America and Israel who are surrounded by enemies who taunt and attack them constantly, twisting and distorting their every action into pure evil, to the point that they just want to shut themselves away so that they can live in peace. Yet finally when they do stand up they are painted as the bully and are cowled into submission.


#122 Bleupea 24 April 2008 at 05:51 am

JJ10 said: “Your just SCARED! I could go on, but I know many of you all a bit too far gone to change …..”

Why are you concerned with these people changing? Do we not have our rights to our opinions? If we were scared, why would that be any of your concern?
If we don’t like the fact that illegal immigrants have too many rights in this country, or prisoners have too many luxuries, you can disagree with us, but it is not your place, nor is it your responsibility to try to “make us see the light.”
I’m very proud to be “right-winged,” and do not welcome your tone. You may believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe, but do not assume that your beliefs make you better than those who hold the opposite beliefs. Your arrogance and contempt are routed in ignorance.


#123 atonyt 24 April 2008 at 06:00 am

Thank you to Treblaine (post 121) and Radiatidon (post 84).
Treblain, I am sorry for your past experiences, but they provide an excellent metaphor to several issues I see as problems we face all the time. Frankly, I think we (America) are judged way too quickly and harshly by the outside world.
Radiatidon, man I love reading your posts. Finally, someone points out the fact that everyone loves to bitch about how bad America is, and when it comes down to it, people are here visiting, (or even in prison) they find out we are not terrible people. And yes I realize the gov. has made mistakes and we try to persuade other countries to our point of view but everyone does make mistakes and tries to convince others to their side. What if America quit giving the billions, I said BILLIONS of dollars worth of aid and cancellation of debt to other countries! We are hated now, but boy, we would really suck then.

And as far as illegal immigration goes, something has to be done. People who are not citizens can go into hospitals without insurance and receive care for only 50$. While the other folks who are working will get the full medical bill and if it is not paid, they will lose their house and retirement plans. Or the illegal immigrant that doesn’t have car insurance and causes an accident. He gets deported while the family is stuck with medical bills on costs that are rising due to illegal immigrants not responsible for the bill.

I know we are not perfect, but everyone else needs to get off their damn high horse and realize we are trying to do the right thing.


#124 Bleupea 24 April 2008 at 06:27 am

Sorry, re-reading my comment, I meant “rooted” not “routed”
Too early in the morning for this one, I suppose.


#125 Two Cents from Girth 24 April 2008 at 06:29 am

Ok JJ10:
Here is the spot light and the question, (drum roll, please) so how would you have it?
Plans, solutions, addressing concerns and fears are on the table to obvious and real problems.
Most of my fears are already realized and I am not cowering; actually, I am ready to fight for what I believe, like most, I have had about enough nonsense and psycobabble that goes nowhere, in your opinion what does that make me? Now, I dont want berate you, but most of what I read was that is wrong, your scared, distortion of this etc etc. Maybe you need a release valve, fine. I’ll still be standing when your done. What I am really writing to you about is to see if you may have some insights and plausible solutions instead of critiques and critisms. You obviously have brains and opinions, how about sharing your solutions, appart from Bush is bad, we are scared blah blah blah. I may find myself on the right and am personally very old fashioned and consevative to the core but I still think…yes, some of the right wing extra baggage is far fetched and incorrect to my way of thinking. I dont believe we need to be the medias constrained robots on our political views, I think if we gravitate toward an ideology fine, but stay rooted in center of common sense, that is what the media attacks constantly. There is where the media drives its wedge, into the firm center of America, where we are looking for truth, not party line jargon, double talk and indoctrination. I believe most of us who speak out believe they have something to contribute and would not mind being proven wrong if they could be shown the where’s and why’s before hand instead of after the fact, that is called forsight and it is VERY valueable, hind sight is practically usless(may serve as a reminder not to make the same mistakes though).
So standing up is great! Shouting hey you stupid bastards your wrong, again great! Now explain the why’s, where’s, the how’s and ways to make it better. It is called forming a firm base, being decided about your beliefs, going on record and giving a solution. This where most just walk away or decide to keep their teeth together, I dont see how that approach really benifts America. I dont play guessing games, when I form a solution and someone stands back and says ohh that is crap and it is wrong, yeah it gets my attention; but I dont go into a defensive tizzy, I simply ask so how is it wrong and what can be done to correct the problem. Hey! If we use the most far left, liberal plan and it works, GREAT! I am concerned about the plausible solution, not who thinks of it and gets the political straw. Do you know the road to confrontational politics is actually a long road to nowhere taking forever to get there???
Dont buy into the media hype of what their version of politics is, please…
So I’d like to hear solutions from the Democrats, liberals or whatever banner you’ve ascribed to, I am not trying to place people into groups of labels, I want people to choose their our words to describe themselves and their solutions…


#126 Reaper 24 April 2008 at 10:28 am

Sorry I’m not exactly going with the flow of commentary, but my head exploded about 5 posts before the finish so I’m just going to say my peace here and see if I can play catch up a little later.

Every nation in the history of existence has done this and worse, and is continuing to do so to this day. The difference is that the documentation of our crimes survives to see the light of day — most of it, anyways. Many nations cannot say this, and the fact that America seems to be singularly lambasted for her crimes against humanity is evidence of this. We’re the only ones owning up to any of our crimes.

As for the ongoing discussions of an overpowered government, I can’t help but disagree despite the fact that the idea does have merit. First, let me say that anybody who says “this administration” is a fool. Bush can suggest things, goad them into being, but it requires the collective agreement of the majority of Congress to enact these laws — and every single one of them has been reelected every 2 to 6 years by you (assuming you’re American, that is).

But I digress. If you feel that your freedoms have been abridged, then I urge you to POLITELY pursue their reinstatement. I, for one, don’t feel like my freedoms have been curtailed, though. I’ve never seen anybody jailed for speaking out against the government — God knows there aren’t enough jails for that. My ability to exercise free speech has never been limited by the government’s desire to monitor what I say. To be short, I cannot think of one thing I’m not allowed to do that I SHOULD be allowed to do.

For the life of me I can’t remember what else I wanted to say. Perchance it’ll come back later.


#127 yakoos 24 April 2008 at 12:57 pm

so i started this, i havent followed it on its way, but the original point of what I was making was simply that both left wing and right wing people make wild generalizations. Catkiller7′s comment that this makes him mad at Americans was one of these.

I’m a liberal, but i hate the way liberals think they are immune to oversimplistic generalizations and bigotted statements. Foreigners commenting on the United States government or the American people tend to feel similarly entitled.

I just want to conclude by saying discussion and/or argument is good, but the discussion in these posts lack compelling arguments for the most part and just blow eachother off.


#128 doubletrinity 24 April 2008 at 08:42 pm

yakoos said:”I’m a liberal, but i hate the way liberals think they are immune to oversimplistic generalizations and bigotted statements. Foreigners commenting on the United States government or the American people tend to feel similarly entitled.”

Granted, foreigners tend to make generalizations of Americans as people. But the generalizations stem from the actions of a government empowered with the endorsement of the majority of voting Americans. The most obvious and logical thing that foreigners have to judge America on is their government. After all, aren’t they ostensibly the Voice of the People?


#129 doubletrinity 24 April 2008 at 08:57 pm

atonyt said: ” Frankly, I think we (America) are judged way too quickly and harshly by the outside world.
when it comes down to it, people are here visiting, (or even in prison) they find out we are not terrible people.
I know we are not perfect, but everyone else needs to get off their damn high horse and realize we are trying to do the right thing.”

Nobody could claim that America has not used its knowledge, wealth and power to help the world. I don’t think anyone would even try.
I would have to agree that America is judged quickly and harshly, but one should understand that America, through its own Foreign Policy throughout history, and even stretching into now, has appointed itself the guardian and protector of freedom and democracy.
I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with that; I’m all for helping lift the oppressed and destitute. But when one is in such a position of importance and responsibility, one is held to a ‘higher standard’. Fair or no, that’s pretty much the way it is.
But in spite of grumblings or international criticisms, well, aside from the odd fundamentalist or ten, I seriously, seriously doubt that the world at large is harbouring some concrete notion that America is actively trying to be bad, or that Americans themselves are terrible people.


#130 Joe Buck 24 April 2008 at 09:09 pm

#62:

No, while Tim Berners-Lee is British, he invented the technologies that make up the World Wide Web while at CERN, in Switzerland.


#131 DesScorp 25 April 2008 at 09:06 am

Putnam’s account here paints Dasch in far too heroic a light. By every other account that I’ve read, Dasch was no hero, and didn’t turn his team in for any heroic reasons. He had delusions of grandeur, and was an active (and voluntary) lifetime member of the Nazi party. Dasch turned them in not because of any sympathy for America, but in a temper tantrum as he percieved that the Nazi’s weren’t properly recognizing his genius. Dasch had no great love for America, and in several documented accounts, displayed contempt for America because as an immigrant, he could find only menial jobs. Again, his resentment was keyed on his new country not fully appreciating his “genius”:

Eugene Rachlis’s in-depth account of Operation Pastorius “They Came to Kill”, gives a number of reasons for Dasch’s betrayal. An arrogant, self-absorbed, ambitious man, Dasch was a perennial under achiever who harbored dreams of glory. At nearly every turn his grasp exceeded his reach. As a Nazi he felt denied his proper role in the party. As an immigrant he resented the menial jobs he found in America. Even as a saboteur he found his fellow spies inferior. At every turn he finds his talents under appreciated, his abilities belittled. Now, in his moment of command, he seizes the opportunity to take center stage. As he mysteriously tells an old friend in New York – “”You’ll be reading about me all in the papers pretty soon!”.”

Dasch got what he deserved. He deserved neither reward nor pardon. I’ve no doubt that Hoover used the situation to the FBI’s advantage, but Putnam paints too harsh an account of the agency in this issue.

As for the tribunal, Dasch and the others received the best possible representation:

In true American fashion, the men would be represented by council. It was not a volunteer job. Col. Cassius M. Dowell and Col. Kenneth C. Royall were appointed to the defense. Royall was a top notch defense attorney – Harvard Law School grad, editor of the Law review. Dowell was a 40 year Army man, wounded in World War I, had taught law between the Wars. The Germans had as good a legal team as they could ever have expected.”

Source of the quotes: http://www.montauklife.com/history/history_night_of_the_nazis.html


#132 supercalafragalistic 25 April 2008 at 12:19 pm

I like the Don’s comments. :)


#133 Repomancer 25 April 2008 at 09:51 pm

JJ10 said: “The internet is a GLOBAL tool isn’t it or does the USA own it now ? I believe the Brits invented it?”

You’re confusing the Internet with the World Wide Web. They are not the same thing. Look up ARPAnet.

Origins notwithstanding, it is certainly a global resource.


#134 Rich Rostrom 25 April 2008 at 10:48 pm

Hoover’s “strategy” was completely useless and in fact counter-productive.

The FBI busted the only real German spy ring in 1941 thanks to a double agent (who was a volunteer; the FBI had nothing to do but follow his information). Thereafter, there were no real German agents of any sort in the U.S. (One agent was landed in November 1944, and caught a few weeks later.)

British intelligence worked differently. They converted all German agents to double agents, and were thus able to feed the Germans a vast amount of misinformation. This included key elements of the D-Day deception, and later on misleading data about V-weapon impacts.

Hoover was utterly incapable of seeing the use of double agents in strategic deception. All he wanted was to make arrests and get headlines.

Later in 1941, the Germans sent one of their top agents to the U.S. to set up a new spy ring. He was actually a British-controlled double, and the British thought this was a great opportunity to extend the deception operation. Hoover flatly refused to let the deception go forward. FBI meddling nearly blew the man’s cover with the Germans. Hoover also got all sniffy at the agent’s playboy lifestyle.

No one can say what might have been accomplished if the U.S. had run a “double-cross” system like Britain’s, but Hoover made sure that it could never even be tried.


#135 markda1 26 April 2008 at 09:12 am

Repomancer said: “You’re confusing the Internet with the World Wide Web. They are not the same thing. Look up ARPAnet.

Origins notwithstanding, it is certainly a global resource.”

Global resource or not the US has direct control over the functioning of the Internet considering that most of the top level Domain Name Servers are located here . Again, the US has given, and continues to give the world a priceless asset that would set most of the world back 50 years if taken away. You’re welcome.


#136 derfeus 28 April 2008 at 01:15 pm

Well that was Damn Interesting! What a raw deal though. Hoover was one crap bastard if you ask me. Check out the story on the FBI site:

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/nazi/nazi.htm

Interesting how their version differs.


#137 dani6188 29 April 2008 at 12:01 am

Jared Lessl said: “Which ones? Please enumerate the rights denied by law to non-citizens living in US territory.

I’ll give you a hint, things like “freedom of speech” and “right to a trial” aren’t on that list.”

Check out the 14th Amendment, section 1 (Equal Protections clause). While everyone within the jurisdiction of a particular state (American or not) is entitled to the protection of their life, liberty, and property and to the equal protection of the law, it is specifically citizens of the U.S. (meaning those born or naturalized in the U.S.) that are protected from state laws that abridge the “privileges or immunites of citizens of the United States.” It’s not an obvious difference, but those small gradations of Constitutional protections can mean a lot. I think you would be hard pressed to find a nation that didn’t afford its citizens a greater scope of rights than non-citizens.

I think more important than the question of individual rights in circumstances like these (mostly because I think it is the basis from which those rights are protected and given meaning in a practical sense) is the question of separation of powers and checks and balances. The military tribunal process as applied in ex parte Quirin and now (see Hamdan v. Rumsfeld) is Consitutionally questionable at best. Untrammeled executive authority is a scary prospect, and allowing a President to ride roughshod over Constitutional limits on power in the name of patriotism in a time of “war” is only the first step toward voluntarily surrendering the personal liberties we profess to hold so dear. I am not contending that there is never a circumstance where certain personal liberties must be hemmed in temporarily (for example, the Constitution states that habeus corpus can only be suspended during rebellion or invasion, neither of which are events that carry on for an indeterminate time). Rather, I think that whenever such a curtailment of liberties occurs it should be closely examined and that it is the duty of an American citizen to be aware and not merely dismiss such concerns because someone tells them it is “for the greater good” without explanation.


#138 Two Cents from Girth 29 April 2008 at 10:10 pm

Nice arguement, a very eloquent, indirect “I hate Bush commentary”. Interesting, not a word of speculation on if any of these means have made the U.S. in anyway safer in the last six years or have stopped just one attack??? Nor a word on if they were deemed necessary by people with more info at hand??? How sloped and slanted…my my.
Very good writing though, an interesting bit about the 14th Amendment, another nice twist or interpretation, a revisionist too I suppose???
Here is a nice quote: “Untrammeled executive authority is a scary prospect, and allowing a President to ride roughshod over Constitutional limits on power in the name of patriotism in a time of “war” is only the first step toward voluntarily surrendering the personal liberties we profess to hold so dear.”
Where have we heard that before?? The Sedition Acts? Abe Lincoln during the Civil War? During W. Wilsons era and WWI?? Oh, how about FDR’s administrations? Do you really believe these Presidents objectives were to limit and curtail the Rights of their citizens? No?
Then kindly give Bush the same ammount of respect… What real and essential rights of yours have really been curtailed or suspended?? Been forceably removed from your home, life and community for the color of your skin?? Had all your crops burned because they might fall into enemy hands?? Been drafted? (If you were and you served, I honestly Thank You!!!)
OOOhhh a big one, The “Catch all” privacy perhaps… what else?? Are you really upset and damaged that someone could be listening in, with hopes of stopping the next 9-11?? Take a sedative pal and remember how open we were compared to other contries when the planes crashed. If you’d rather be dead than have some inconviences with your government, there are a few 100 million people out there that would probally grant your request. Not a scare tactic my well written friend, a fact. So how bad off are you hypersensative civil rights people anyway? Gosh, someone could be listening in, oh woe is me, that violates my rights…take a good look around the globe, put the tissues away, roll up your sleeves and start getting ready to defend what is yours. Unhappy during all this plenty, wow, what are some of you people going to be like when crap really hits the fan?? I’ve got enough real things to be concerned about instead of pondering over if the government is going to take away my rights, please…
It is isnt eloquent, but it is closer to common sence than any of the well structured theroetical commentary on the subject as of late. Sometimes blue collar language works :)
Oh yeah, the German spies/sabotueres got what was coming to them even though anyone with an IQ over 7 knows the FBI put a sloped spin on the events and muffed it. The traitor was lucky he didnt get smoked too, what a coward on many levels…
Thanks!!


#139 jimsey123 29 April 2008 at 10:35 pm

markda1 said: “Perhaps if the United States finally is subjugated by a major power …

Does the invasion by Mexicans qualify? Or the Chinese takeover
of our manufacturing? Or…


#140 misfit 01 May 2008 at 07:39 am

supercalafragalistic said: “Today’s tabloidization of the media is horrible. If something like this were to happen today the media would descend all over this and could theaten national security in the process.”

I agree with that. In today’s world, everybody loves to rip on America, especially Americans.

This story is incredibly saddening, and it was not right for Dasch to have been treated that way. This story is also incredibly fascinating, and damn well written. The concerns that are risen in me occurs when I know people will read this and think it represents America as a whole, instead of putting it in perspective. Yeah, America (or rather, a few select individuals who happened to be working in its government at the time (i.e. over 50 years ago)) screwed a bunch of people over to cover their own ass. It was wrong, and nobody’s denying that. There’s a sadness that comes over me when I read this and think of how lonely Dasch must have been without a country to call home. Another sadness comes over me when I think of all the people who read this and think to themselves that this serves as a prime parallel representative of our entire government today. Yeah, again, a few select people who are up there now (I’m NOT talking about who I know people think I’m talking about) have gone their own way with screwing people over to cover their ass.
Basically, all I’m saying is it’s unfortunate how some will look at things guilty people have done and think it’s okay to extend that guilt to those people’s coworkers, the rest of the country they live in, and then even to that same country half a century later. To make a long statement short, please, please don’t look at this and say something like: “wow, America makes me sick.” This story happened a long time ago, and it hurts our feelings (mine at least) when people lump the rest of us into the same category as (again) those few individuals who did and indeed still today make plenty of bad choices all by themselves.

Reading this over, I’m actually a little surprised at how often that sad feeling is reported in this particular comment. It’s surprising because I usually have at least a tiny bit more of that super-stereotyped republican vigor when it comes to defending our government (or at least the rest of the people who just live here), and I’m usually at least a little more worked up over being on the opposite side of the fence from the people who just keep hating us… it’s almost every day now that I read people calling America a vile place. The country I live in is regarded as “disgusting”. This is my home.. lately it’s been wearing away at me. I’m tired.


#141 Yardvark 01 May 2008 at 11:23 am

col_p said: “… It [America's response to 9/11] seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction to lash out at every black face in the Middle East with deadly force. All except the Saudis, of course.”

The irony of which — or should I say, hypocrisy — is that the saboteurs of 9/11 were Saudi. So we invade IRAQ? Mmmm-hmmh. Americans will seemingly put up with any BS the government hands them, perhaps because they’re too busy trying to figure out which credit card to use to fill up their gas tanks. And Pres. Bush is doing one-liners about the presidential candidates while our boys’ blood runs in the sand. For what? Gaaaahhh …


#142 Two Cents from Girth 01 May 2008 at 06:38 pm

Well misfit,
Tell those misguided, defeatist losers to put the tissues away and change what they dont like about the US. Most of these clowns that are whining are either trying to establish an economic trend or are themselves miserable. If you still love your country and are not miserable count yourself blessed. Try to comfort those that are having it rough but dont subscribe to the crap these people are dishing out. I feel we have been holding our tongue long enough; when these people get loose lipped about our country, I think we need to put them in their place. I dont want the crap they are imagining to become the reality of our country. You think those people are miserable now, wait and see how they act when major problems arise. The hypersensative, over critical/analytical synisim isnt getting us anywhere, so lets drop the poor me routine and get on a positive train of thought. Most countries that have fallen were beaten before the enemy armies ever arrived…most have fallen from within. I dont plan on giving the land I love away anytime soon, how about you???


#143 Repomancer 01 May 2008 at 10:07 pm

markda1 said: “Global resource or not the US has direct control over the functioning of the Internet considering that most of the top level Domain Name Servers are located here . Again, the US has given, and continues to give the world a priceless asset that would set most of the world back 50 years if taken away. You’re welcome.”

And so you are disagreeing with me how, exactly? Baffled, here.


#144 tech42er 03 May 2008 at 11:37 pm

I’d say the 6 going to the Electric Chair, while not great, was fairly justified. I can even understand that Hoover wanted Dachs and Burgen in jail for the duration of the war as a show to the public, but I would have hoped that he had made sure to make it cushy for them. That they were not immediately released and hailed as heroes after the war is despicable and the fact that Hoover didn’t even want the truth exposed after the war reminds me why I dislike him so much. DI at any rate!


#145 Two Cents from Girth 04 May 2008 at 03:54 pm

Tech42er,
The six going to an electric chair??? So bizarre, I always visualize a firing squad after a military tribunal hands down a death sentence, but the chair it was.

$84,000 to blow some stuff up in the USA…how about the Japanesee idea of ballon bombs to burn our forests and cities down??? Remember that story where a family approx. 30 years later uncovers the ballon in the NW, and the bomb goes off, providing the only American civilian war causalties on the mainland in WWII?
I guess my point is for $84,000, they could have started alot of forest fires…


#146 Ahpuch 06 May 2008 at 05:23 pm

MC42 said: “With a name like “Catkilller7″ and comments like the one’s you made. What the Hell are you hiding? If you don’t like Americans . . . Get the Hell out of here!”

MC42 and others who have commented on this post are so poorly educated by their American peers and elders that they are incapable of figuring out that nearly everyone hates America’s foreign policies, including their closest neighbors to the North.

Further more, the people in this article which spew verbal diarreah about ‘THOSE DAMN ILLEGAL ALIEN IMMIGRANTS’ need to learn a little somethin’ somethin’ about how first world countries depend on virtual slavery to feed to furnish their fat, intellectually and morally ignorant citizens with luxury goods and cheap twinkies.

If you want to renounce immigrants, illegal or not, stop depending on them to grow your cheap lettuce, sweep your streets, tile your bathrooms, clean your septic tanks, build your houses, sew together your nikes and assemble your cars for slave wages. You don’t pay any taxes to teach those ‘damn mexican kids’ that you wouldn’t pay 10,000% more of to subsidize an American citizen’s wage enough to provide your luxury goods.


#147 Inti 07 May 2008 at 06:52 am

Well said Ahpuch, I wonder where Sid was on this one…


#148 sid 07 May 2008 at 06:08 pm

Inti said: “Well said Ahpuch, I wonder where Sid was on this one…”

Just watching. There’s been plenty of active debate, so why should I bother getting involved? I’m a bit surprised it took you so long to “speak up,” though. I thought maybe you were getting up the courage to actually respond to some of my previous challenges to you. But I should have figured that courage is not one of your strong points. As usual, you offer nothing of substance.


#149 sid 07 May 2008 at 06:13 pm

Oh, and as for Ahpuch, his/her comment is typical of the Inti types, so no wonder it garners Inti support. He/she intentionally misdirects by trying to imply that anyone opposed to ILLEGAL immigrants must be opposed to ALL immigrants. Like Inti, he/she offers nothing of substance, and a whole lot of angry rhetoric. No reason to comment, really, but since you asked…


#150 Two Cents from Girth 07 May 2008 at 11:11 pm

Wow!
That closes the door sid… :) I’ll pick on the Mexicans now…
Ummm I guess a word that comes to mind is accountability. We have to be accountable for who we allow into this country to live, work and hopefully prosper. As time passes, historically immigrants views become intertwined into our politics and outlook. I would not be worried if for example: Mexico’s model of society mimiced our own.
It would be different if “Mexico actually had their act together and could take care of their own people.” I’d like you to tell this to the flag waving Mexicans on US soil, “your here because your own country cant take care of you or your dodging the manditory enlistment and you wave the Mexican flag, how smart is that???”
Now I understand if someone is going to exploit someone else, they need a pretext or a campaign of marginalization before exploitation can occur. I am not wanting to exploit these illegals, I want them to go home; return and be welcomed, into the US when they are legal, with full time work!! I do see hard working people in the faces of the illegals, a desire to make a living and courage for crossing the border; but they are illegal period. I abide by the laws of this land the best I can and I expect the same from everyone else, so my answer is go home, not with hate but with the conviction that what that person is doing violates the laws of my land.
The labor they talk about that these illegals perform is not ghastly, heck, I’ve done 4 of the 6 on Ahpuchs list from #146 for a living, so your not scaring me pal, albiet when I was in my teens and early twenties; give me a break with the indespensability of laborers routine, we are all replaceable. Yes, there would be changes in our labor structure, our bums, prisoners, miscreants and young may have to work like they have in the past, heaven forbid… we have plenty of people here that can work a shovel and plenty of legal immigrants wanting the oppourtunity of labor, if not to better themselves, perhaps to give a better chance to offspring; a noble motovation of an immigrant. Perhaps laws that I live by can be rewritten??
I think this is a touchy subject and we should re read Ahpuchs words, of which some do have validity if taken in an informative context instead of an insinuating one.

Ahpuch said:
Further more, the people in this article which spew verbal diarreah about ‘THOSE DAMN ILLEGAL ALIEN IMMIGRANTS’ need to learn a little somethin’ somethin’ about how first world countries depend on virtual slavery to feed to furnish their fat, intellectually and morally ignorant citizens with luxury goods and cheap twinkies.
If you can get past the “spew verbal diarreah” part without going into the pro or con illegal routine, you will see a problem we do not want to inherhit from Ahpuch’s economic model of first world countries. That problem folks is the erosion of their middle class and the huge disparity between the haves and have nots. I agree, the division of labor is seldom fair and am an advocate of fair work /fair wage mentality. I dont want to see people getting worked like they are rented, but want them to be productive in their labors, a balance. We need to maintain our middle class, unfortunatly we cannot keep our economic balance with millions of lower class workers flooding into this country every year, we will top out and have to lower the bar if cheap labor keeps pouring in. These people are coming from a truly broken system, not a system in need of some correcting, like the US’s. A message from Lady Liberty: We can no longer take your poor, tired, huddled masses, sorry were full up… what is wrong with trying to maintain an effective population to economic, land and cultural balance?? I dont belive we should be shamed into giving away what is great about our country and be faulted for a desire to protect its wealth… If Mexico was more well off than the US, I’d guarantee you they’d have a wall 50 feet high guarded wall along the border and oh by the way, look at their laws for illegals and non nationals alike, wanna talk restrictive, look at the curtailment of rights when the shoe is on the other foot.
I dont want to live under first world models; and all millions of illegals do is edge us toward that model, I personally think the illegals are a larger burden in the long run than benefit when you consider the impact in generational implications.
There is a valid case that we have built and maintained this country on the backs of the new comers to the new world, I’d like to break that cycle and let the people already here to care, preserve and stimulate this nation for centuries to come. Perhaps to the point of being a little protective isolationist. We dont need half the stuff that is out there, the other half we taught them to make most of it and can provide it ourselves or do limited trade deals like most of the other industrialized nations do…
The answer does not lie with blaming some disillusioned illegal Mexicans, that would empower the Mexican with our accountability, the answer lies within us. It is just like drugs, if no one was using them, they would not be here; both are socially corruptive agents. So lets make big and small business alike accountable.
Another thing about accountability is dont write checks or say comments your brain or butt cant cash, someone may call you on your words and all the 1st Amendment jargon wont make a bit of difference. Accountability is best used when standing for something, not slinging accusations from the seated position on the couch…
Thanks!!!


#151 Two Cents from Girth 07 May 2008 at 11:14 pm

oops! Red type gone terribly wrong!@#* Sorry.
Quote should have cut off at cheap twinkles.
Again my appologies…


#152 Bleupea 12 May 2008 at 11:05 am

I realize I’ll probably be the last post (sorry I was on vacation and missed all this fun), but I like putting my “Two Cents” in too.
I think you’re spot-on “Two Cents.” I have no problem with legal immigrants, why would I? I’m not that big of a hypocrite, I realize my ancestors were immigrants. But I do have a problem with illegal immigrants. There is a reason there is a system, and it is not just to protect U.S. citizens, but also immigrants. What happens when an illegal immigrant “purchases” a social security number off of an unscrupulous character and ends up stealing some innocent person’s identity and ends up getting thrown in jail? Chances are the immigrant didn’t realize he was doing anything that harmful, but he did it because he needed the SSN to get the job, and he had an opportunity to get one. There are a million other scenarios that people who think I’m spewing “verbal diarrea” don’t realize happen on a daily basis and seriously endanger the liberties of those of us who have a right to be here, and those of us who have fought and endured the long process that it takes to have a right to be here.
Simply put, illegal immigrants need to be deported and held accountable for their actions.


#153 Hamster_Herder 19 May 2008 at 06:22 am

i think illegal immagrants have to learn english and pay to become a citizen like everyone else.


#154 MarshyMarsh 04 June 2008 at 11:51 am

I am disgusted, not at the American government, but at the individuals who cowardice cost the lives of (so far as I see) 6 innocent men, and ruined the lives of two brave people who tried to aid the supposedly ‘good’ side in the second world war. This article is damn interesting but also damn disgusting, it is only decent for the American Government to issue a formal apology to these deceased men.
I also agree that this would make a brilliant movie.


#155 NickDB 18 June 2008 at 02:44 am

markda1

“I wonder if anyone thinks that if an American committed crimes in another country they would be treated the same as we treat foreigners in ours?”

Yes they are, in most countries that have modern constitutions, the right to a free and fair trial are offered to everyone, along with same treatment in prison etc (IT might not be the same as offered in the states, but it will be the same treatment that people of that country recieve) Illegal immigrant or not.

markda1 I’m curious, have you ever traveled?

Markda1 “Again, the US has given, and continues to give the world a priceless asset that would set most of the world back 50 years if taken away. You’re welcome.”

Thanks for the Internet, can we have our wheel back since it existed before you yanks did?


#156 Linda Martin 14 July 2008 at 07:08 am

The death penalty is a tricky one for me. Since DNA has found that so many that were put to death were actually innocent, I’m not as in favor as I once was. However, if there is NO DOUBT that an individual took the life of another human being, it’s only fair that they lose theirs. And, if I were to lose a member of my family to someone who tortured them and caused them pain, a lethal injection just wouldn’t be satisfactory to me.
For something like spying…….I think the death penalty is a little severe.

As for the abortion thing…….it has nothing to do with the death penalty, but……..I just don’t understand anyone who can say that a fetus is not a baby. It most certainly is a baby. A fetus is not a baby, only in the same way a 5 year old is not a 12 year old. That’s just stupid and ……..naive…..ridiculous. I can’t even express how frustrated I get with people who insist a fetus is not a baby. That’s just a cowards way of making oneself feel better about thinking that it’s ok to kill a baby.


#157 KJK::Hyperion 03 October 2008 at 03:01 am

Brombachian: yeah, a real dilemma. If only FBI had the authority and the resources to hide the identity and whereabouts of the two defectors until the war was over… oh, wait


#158 alex212 27 March 2009 at 01:26 am

Can someone tell me if traces of a certain acid had really been found in the basement sectors of the World Trade Center. I heard rumours that some experts surmise it was somehow connected with CIA…. This might be rumours, but when I heard it, it gave me the creeps…


#159 Mirage_GSM 13 May 2009 at 08:59 am

DesScorp (#131) said: “Putnam’s account here paints Dasch in far too heroic a light. By every other account that I’ve read, Dasch was no hero, and didn’t turn his team in for any heroic reasons. He had delusions of grandeur, and was an active (and voluntary) lifetime member of the Nazi party. Dasch turned them in not because of any sympathy for America, but in a temper tantrum as he percieved that the Nazi’s weren’t properly recognizing his genius. Dasch had no great love for America, and in several documented accounts, displayed contempt for America because as an immigrant, he could find only menial jobs.”

I wonder: Why should the reasons for the defection of Dasch and Burger be important?
Dasch may or mayn’t have had ulterior motives for defecting (That source is just one of many, and without knowing the guy it would be hard to be sure), but it is a fact that he a) didn’t commit any crimes (If you don’t count illegal immigration via a submarine, but for that the punishment would be a bit excessive even in wartimes…) and b) helped to prevent others from comitting a crime.
So what if he was a boisterous git personally? That’s no reason to be put into jail.


#160 ischwarz 02 August 2009 at 07:51 pm

Curious about where the executions of the 6 took place..some accounts say DC jail…other sing sing prison in NY….


#161 slyda 26 February 2010 at 01:14 am

Its Dasch and Burger who should have been executed – buy their own men…..if there’s one thing I can’t stand its traitors and snitches. And here you all are sticking up for these worms who got their own men killed. The Germans should have picked their men better!


#162 Frank G 26 February 2010 at 07:11 am

Taking in consideration how the FBI was operating in those days, it doesn’t surprise me that
FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover was more thinking about his own gain.
Here you have a guy who gives up his future (Dasch) and trying to do the right thing,but instead he get’s slashed down because of some guys with big ego’s.
I see this as a black period in civil warfare, and i can’t imagine that this is just a one time thing.
There are probably way more cases that we are not aware about.
But still I love this country and understand also that in that time period lots of people were all stressed about the war, and not thinking rational at some times.
I only hope they learn from the past, great story Christopher .
Thanks, DI

Frank G


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