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CANCER and Th1 Inflammation
 Moderated by: Dr Trevor Marshall  

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Ruth Goold
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 21:15

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Interesting essay on horizontal gene sharing in microbes today in Nature: Biology's next revolution. by Nigel Goldenfeld and Carl Woese

They conclude: The emerging picture of microbes as gene-swapping collectives demands a revision of such concepts as organism, species and evolution itself.

Not to mention clinical medicine for treatment of inflammatory disease!

Trevor or Meg: I am interested in the connection between inflammation and cancer (i.e. "everyone knows inflammation causes cancer"). Are high levels of 1,25 D known to be associated with suppression of p53? Thanks,

Ruth

Moderator's note: Please see CANCER and Th1 inflammation



____________________
03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 21:38

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I am not sure why you raised the topic of p53, although I think you might be interested in this paper:
http://tinyurl.com/ysb3ra
p53 is a transcriptional coactivator that we still know very little about.

Other papers you might like to review include:
Persistent Pathogens and dormancy
and
The microbial resistome

As for your direct questions about Cancer, the truth is that nobody knows anything solid about Cancer's fundamental pathogenesis right now. What we do know is that a healthy immune system is capable of destroying the cancerous cells before they can proliferate. We are getting tantalizing glimpses that an antibacterial therapy like the MP seems to reduce the incidence of proliferative disease, but we are years from being able to state that sort of thing definitively. Maybe, decades...

wrotek
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:02

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I have seen an interview with a person who's cancer cells disappeard completely. It is really possible :) His organism removed somehow all cancer cells.

I wonder what is the bio film made from, if we knew what is it maybe we could destroy it.

Last edited on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:03 by wrotek



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:06

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Wrotek,
The MP is designed to destroy the bacteria's ability to produce the proteins needed for the biofilm. That is why we target the 70S Ribosome with our antibiotics rather than, say, the nucleic acids. There are studies showing that low concentrations of antibiotics are most effective at eliminating the biofilms...

wrotek
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:22

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Interesting. How long they can stay in bio-film structure? What if bacteria first produce bio-film and then we, not fast enough, give antibiotic ? Does bio-film stops nutritions entering bacteria ?



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:30

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Wrotek,
Please read the second paper I cited, on persistent pathogens, and look at figure 4 for your answer.

wrotek
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:35

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The second paper is very short Review, maybe i need to purchase an article or subscribe ? Dunno.

Last edited on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 23:36 by wrotek



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 00:12

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Oops, yes, you have just an abstract at that link. Sorry. The Fulltext is what you need. Indeed, it is very difficult to do any serious scientific discovery unless you look at the fulltext of every paper. Unfortunately this one is locked up unless you can get a local library, or an academic friend who has access, to help you..

tickbite
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 06:42

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Ruth Goold wrote: Are high levels of 1,25 D known to be associated with suppression of p53?
Hi Ruth,

I am curious also to know why you asked the question?

I think I would believe that pathogen communities posses a p53-null plasmid, rather than 1,25 D suppressing p53.     



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tickbite
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 20:41

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Then again maybe not....heck i'm not sure.

Molecular Link Between Inflammation And Cancer Discovered

All of a sudden p100 and p53 are popping up as important.....Are these proteins that are transcriptional coactivators as Dr. Marshall puts it?

I'm a little intrigued that the news article reports that the researchers were looking at "it might be easier to break the link between inflammation and cancer by targeting the developmental pathway, rather than the inflammation pathway." 

Intrigued because that sounds like designing a drug to make money from instead of designing an opportunity like the MP to kill the beast. 



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Ruth Goold
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 21:50

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Hi Greg,

Thanks for the publication - maybe the links that Trevor refers to (antibacterial treatments may also be anticancer treatments) won't take decades to make after all.  With respect to whether vitamin D is linked to p53 suppression, just a shot in the dark based on the observations published in Nature yesterday that one of the mechanisms by which p53 causes tumour suppression or regression is activation of the innate immune system.  So, the loss of innate immune function in inflammatory disease may be one mechanism by which inflammation leads to cancer.  With respect to your earlier question, plasmids and DNA integration are not the only mechanisms by which bacteria and viruses co-opt the pathways of host cells.  Molecular mimicry and interference with host transcription and signalling pathways are common.

Ruth   



____________________
03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
Ruth Goold
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 21:59

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tickbite wrote: "it might be easier to break the link between inflammation and cancer by targeting the developmental pathway, rather than the inflammation pathway." 

Intrigued because that sounds like designing a drug to make money from instead of designing an opportunity like the MP to kill the beast.

 

With respect to this, it might be a money-making ploy or simply reflect the inability of the medical reserach community to come to grips with the cause of inflammation.  Remember that while they may accept that inflammation and autoimmunity are 'triggered' by infection, they do not believe that ongoing infection is the basis of inflammatory or 'autoimmune' disease.  Thus, they have no basis for intervention in the inflammatory process.

Ruth



____________________
03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
tickbite
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30th, 2007 23:05

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Good point Ruth. Ignorance is the other driving factor. I don't mean that in a bad way. That's just the way the world is. Just as earning a living and making some cash. I just wish medicine was more people driven than money driven.

re: mutation.....thank goodness for wikipedia! there is so much to understand. It's hard to keep it all together. Speaking of wikipedia we need a wikimarshall protocol. With the amount of information the site is gathering it's becoming increasingly difficult to keep it flowing in a user friendly way. I think wiking it would be a fantastic investment for the future. How expensive/hard would this be? could it even be achieved?

~Greg



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tickbite
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 Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 06:54

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Don't know where else to put this...:) But I wanted to share.

UCSD Researchers Discover
Internal Compass of Immune Cells


November 15, 2006

The pubmed version.

and this

ATP activates cAMP production via multiple purinergic receptors in MDCK-D1 epithelial cells. Blockade of an autocrine/paracrine pathway to define receptor preference of an agonist.

Would it be strange to say that we feel so fatigued because all of our energy is being used to amplify immunopathology?



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Ruth Goold
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29th, 2007 23:49

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Front page news in Saturday's Globe and Mail (one of Canada's two national daliy newspapers) is "Bombshell US study that will tie [cancer] incidence rate to lack of sunshine rather than pollutants".

The article is a breath-taking promotion of vitamin D based on a US study said to be released in June: "a four year clinical trial involving 1,200 women [that] found those taking the vitamin had about a 60% reduction in cancer incidence, compared with those who didn't take it, a drop so large - twice the impact on cancer attributed to smoking - that it almost looks like a typographical error".
One of the study researchers, Robert Heaney of Creighton University, Nebraska was quoted: "we don't really know what the status of chronic disease is in the North American population until we normalize vitamin D staus." Needless to say, he wasn't talking about lowering vitamin D levels.

What dow we know about the methodologies and conclusions drawn in this study?
Ruth



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03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
tickbite
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30th, 2007 00:30

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Dr. Veith and company at it again....Here's my interpretation between the MP and everybody else.


From AAEM transcript, "The primary difference between mathematical science, which is primarily what i'm going to deal with in this presentation, and evidence-based medicine is that one is definitive and one is interpretive. Mathematical science tries to define relationships between metabolites. Tries to define what's going on. Evidence based medicine tries to interpret the results of observation in a reliable manner. As we enter the 21st century, the tools to reduce some important medical dilemma to mathematical precision are now available in Molecular Genomics. Now one thing I want to point out is that true science has no concept of weight of evidence......there is no need for weight of evidence. As a hypothesis is advanced, it can be tested and it stands until it is rejected or improved.....If the problem is deterministic, then there is a solution."


phew, I had to type that one out for some reason wouldn't copy-paste.


Ruth, i've watched Dr. Vieth's presentation. If you want to watch it, either search on google for it or message me for the link. It deals with absolutely no science, only interpretive medicine. There is no chemistry and no molecular biology. Dr. Veith's presentation is rather persuasive if you don't realize the molecular genomics behind what he's interpreting. He (and the vit D council) draw conclusions from piecing together hundreds of assumptions and interpretations to form an elaborate solution. In engineering we say, "that has a lot of fudge factor." IMO, what Trevor is doing is letting what is really happening come to the forefront and allowing the solution to present itself. 


Why the vitamin D council and Dr. Veith for example don't want to look at the molecular genomics..........I have no idea. Old farts and their ideas don't die hard I guess. It's the human unconscious which doesn't allow us to 'let go' easily. Attachment provides the ego with identity.



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Ruth Goold
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 21:08

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Well, it has been a while but the study in question is now at least published - giving it a second round of publicity in Canada. 
Vitamin D and calcium supplementation reduces cancer risk: results of a randomized trial Joan M Lappe, Dianne Travers-Gustafson, K Michael Davies, Robert R Recker and Robert P Heaney.  American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 85: 1586-1591.

Now the other national newspaper, not to mention the Canadian Cancer Society (CCS), is helping out.  The CCS has issued an recommendation that was on every newscast I saw/heard for a couple of days:
"The CCS recommends that Canadian adults take 1,000 international units of vitamin D daily during fall and winter to reduce cancer risk. Vitamin D should be taken year round by by the elderly, people with dark skin and those who do not get much direct sunlight."

Greg:  The application and interpretation of scientific methods, including molecular genomics, are in the hands of humans who, as we know, are error-prone.  The superiority of scientific results often rests more on the skill and objectivity of the scientist involved, not the methods used.   That said, clinical trials on human subjects are notoriously difficult and often of poor quality becauses of the ethical issues regarding treatment and experimentation on humans and the subjects' lack of compliance with experimental procedure (a days worth of reading on the MP site will amply illustrate the compliance issues and I'm not just casting stones here - guess who still drinks a cup of coffee a day!).  Then there the issues of the lack of control of other factors that often turn out to be the important ones...

So, I am not racing out to buy Vitamin D anytime soon ... but thousands of Canadians are (the fear of cancer is a biggie) and I can just imagine what the effect will be in the US where the press tends to be, shall we say, somewhat less restrained.

It was extraordinarily unethical to 'leak' the results of this study to the press prior to its publication, thus guaranteeing a free round of publicity during which time there was no access to the study for independent evaluation.  However, the study is available now, although I have only seen the abstract so far (will access the full article at work). 

In the meantime, I would be interested in Joyce's opinion on the study methodology and results.   TIA,

Ruth




____________________
03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 21:23

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Ruth,
Another study out today shows "Alzheimer's Disease Cases Set to Quadruple Worldwide by 2050"

http://tinyurl.com/3cs8he

Dementia is a Th1 disease, as is, I suspect, Alzheimers. Did the Vitamin D researchers look at the impact of Vitamin D on the occurrence of Alzhiemers in their cohort? Of course not. What about Asthma, Arthritis, or even Cardiovascular Disease? Nope. Cancer is what will scare the pants off the average man-in-the-street.

Additionally, they used subsetting in their cohort so as to produce a better result with elderly women. This is about as unethical as you can get, IMO.

Still, Canadian stores are reporting they are selling out of Vitamin D, so you Canadians sure are suckers for news headlines. Maybe your mortality rates from chronic disease will catch up to the USA sooner, rather than later...:)

Ruth Goold
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 00:30

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Thanks Trevor,
I agree that the 'subsetting' is unethical but find the subset interesting.   'Elderly' women would seem to represent the age/gender group in which one would expect the greatest number of nominally healthy but TH-1 ridden people to lurk.   If the VDR controls the innate immune system, it is easy to see why people with compromised VDRs should be more likely to develop cancer than others, but not the other way around.  Wouldn't you expect the high level of supplementation to completely shut the VDR down in many cases?

By the way, I can't disagree with the 'suckers' comment but I must take issue with classifying post-menopausal women as 'elderly'.  We are talking about a condition that is only a couple of years away, except perhaps for a little help from the MP, for me and I have just barely adjusted to being called middle-aged :).

Ruth



____________________
03/02/07 Ph 1 MP; 2001: Pulmonary sarc; 01/04/07: 125 D=110pmol/L(45.8 pg/ml)| 25D=20.8 ng/ml: 04/07 19.2: 07/07 11?: 09/07 16.5: 11/07 <10.0: 01/08 <10.0: 05/08 10 ng/ml. Ca. Elocom (ears). diphenhydramine 25 mg. Adidas EE glasses outside. NoIRs
Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 00:43

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Ruth,
Yes, shut down their VDR, reduce acute inflammation, thereby reduce incidence of cancer fed by that inflammation. It would seem a pretty obvious slam-dunk to me.

It is the questions they didn't ask which will prove important:)
 


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