Is Jesus Anti-Gay? PDF Print E-mail
Wednesday, 13 May 2009

So often Christianity is linked with being right wing, anti-gay, anti-Obama, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel.

Now I have strong views on all of these topics, but sometimes our strong views need to be kept to ourselves in order to be effective in reaching out to others. For example, sending out an anti-gay message does nothing to reach gay people for Jesus.  All it does is ostracize them from the church and force them to find refuge amongst their own community instead of finding love, acceptance and forgiveness in the community of Christ.
 
The apostle Paul discusses this in Romans 2 where he rebukes judgmental people and reminds them that it is God’s kindness, tolerance and patience, which ultimately leads people back to God.
 
WWJD?  What would Jesus do?  A simple look at the gospels reveals the answer to this question.  The only people Jesus judged were the rightwing, religious fundamentalists who thought they had it all together and were the sole bearers of religious truth (see Matthew 23). These people were harsh in their judgment of others; Jesus was harsh in His judgment of them.
 
But to others, the marginalized and disenfranchised, Jesus offered a gracious and loving view of God.  He said nothing about homosexuality (except some words in Matthew 19:11-12 that could be an insight into Jesus’ views of those with same-sex attractions).  He had plenty to say about a woman with a dubious past who let her hair down (literally) and anointed him with perfume. When criticized by the religious, Jesus defended her and established a memorial in her honor.
 
He saved a woman who was divorced and remarried five times and living in a defacto relationship with someone else’s husband.  He forgave a woman, caught in the act of adultery, that the religious fundamentalists wanted to stone to death. You get the picture. All these people had their lives (and behavior) changed by the gracious acceptance of Jesus, not His harsh criticism and condemnation.
 
WWJD is a good question that we all need to ask.  The only problem is when some people ask themselves the question they come up with the wrong answer and become cruel critics instead of those who demonstrate the kindness, tolerance and patience of God.  One repels, the other attracts. WWYD? What will you do?

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written by Princess Mary, May 13, 2009
This is so beautiful - thank you Rob for being so good at sharing THE GOOD NEWS of Jesus smilies/smiley.gif
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written by David Perry, May 13, 2009
Well done Rob. This is one of the reasons that I come to this church - a positive, loving, inclusive message. It is also an educated one given the scientific and psychological research. WWJD? Well, it would be much closer to this message than the one emanating from ReDnecksville. smilies/smiley.gif David
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written by Tommy Black, May 29, 2009
Hi Rob

Its important to point out Gods grace when it comes to the sinner who repents, "HE" is gracious towards a repentant sinner because of the blood of Jesus. But God does say clearly in Romans 1 and in other verses that those who practice such things lying stealing homosexuality WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.Of course we need to be loving to those who dont yet know Christ and bring to them the gospel of grace love and salvation but u need to balance that with God's judgement on SIN also....here is a great video about why we should turn from sin by Paster Carter Conlon of Time Square church New York city . He is very balanced in they way he talks about God's love and Judgement ..here is the link God Bless http://media.tscnyc.org/wmv/20090524S1.asx
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written by Tommy Black, May 29, 2009
sorry i sent the wrong link this is the link about WHY should we turn from sin... this is by paster carter conlon from Time square Chuch New York city, its a very good message very balanced between sin and grace, Love though the blood of Jesus and Judgment God bless smilies/grin.gif
http://media.tscnyc.org/wmv/20090517S1.asx
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written by Edwin, June 02, 2009
Hi Rob, after reading through your blog I am unsure as to what your conclusion is. You started out condemning your friend for speaking up against Gay marriages and your message got diluted along the way. You say that you have strong views but we don't know what those views are. Jesus didn't speak about many of the commandments or sins. If He did it was not recorded. It does not mean that He condones the sins. He said one would be forgiven if we as sinners turned to Him (God) for forgiveness with a repentant heart. Repentance means changing completely, leaving the old ways behind and starting on a new one. Making sure one does not knowingly and wilfully continue to live in sin. 1 John 3:6-10 talks about wilful sin. You have taken the verses right out of context. Jesus loves the sinner not the sin and in these examples He was showing that there is hope for all no matter how deep in sin we may be or scarlet our sins are. He did NOT say go and continue to live in sin but said “go and sin no more”. How did you miss that part? Most of us don't go out on a witch hunt for Gays. But to keep quite about what is wrong, is to accept the sin. And that’s how Satan works in the world. Satan tries to dilute God’s Word.

I have friends who are gays and I invite them to church but I do tell them that the act is an abomination in God's sight. I request you not to send out messages that are not biblical. God hated homosexuality in the Old Testament and He still hates it now. Romans 1:26-27 speaks very clearly about this. You said “they go to their community because the church won't accept them”. That's a rather absurd reasoning. There are so many churches open who will gladly accept them. They go to their own because they want to, Eph 2:2 talk about this clearly. You are almost saying God won't be found even if one searches for Him, in fact God reaches out to sinners to turn them to Him. (Rev 3:20). Homosexuality is a wilful sin. Unless you think the Bible is wrong. I know of people who have turned away from this sinful life (eg. John Paulk). In the Bible 2 Peter chapter talks about introducing destructive philosophies and the punishment thereof. Being a fundamental believer is not a bad thing if we stick to the truths of God’s word. Don’t be afraid to speak up, especially when your country allows you to. There will come a time when you will want to speak up but the law won’t let you.
Shalom,
Edwin
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written by Neo , June 02, 2009
"Matthew 19:11-12 that could be an insight into Jesus’ views of those with same-sex attractions" WHAT?? Being a eunuch is not a sin!! how are you trying to relate the two? That is really not blibical.
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written by David, June 03, 2009
I agree with edwin after reading this blog. I scripture that agree as well is in Romans. It state, "shall a man continue in sin that grace may cover him, God forbids." Christians have to stand for what is right. That is the definition of righteousness, standing for what right. Their is no suchthing as a black, white, mexican chineese etc. christian. In the same way their is no gay christian. We are acepted when we come to Jesus as we are, but when we give ourselves to him we should change. If we follow Jesus he makes us into new creatures that are Christ like and not gay christian or anyother reprobate act that is contrary to God.
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written by Bella75, June 03, 2009
David and Edwin, I think you've missed the point that Rob is making. Yes our behaviour should change when we come to Christ but that's a journey. When i became a Christian my lifestyle wasn't automatically perfect, I was still doing some of the stuff that wouldn't allow me to inherit the kingdom of God, but the Holy Spirit over the process of time convicted me. The word says the Holy Spirit "will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin righteousness and judgement" (John 16:smilies/cool.gif. I really believed if I had people in the church had come down on me heavily with the type of lifestyle i should be living in order to be accepted, I would have walked away from Jesus. I wouldn't have had the strength at that point to continue. But instead it was the Holy Spirit who spoke to me gently, lovingly and when the time was right I made that decision to walk away from the things that I know now are not right. That is what I believe Rob is trying to say.

We can't expect people outside of the church to do the right thing when they have not surrendered their life to Jesus. We need to allow the Holy Spirit to do his job and we need to do our job which is to communicate the gospel of Jesus which is to accept his free gift of grace and forgiveness and that is for the whosoever.
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written by Mark Foxall, June 08, 2009
Rob, thanks for your measured wisdom and love filled attempt to discuss this.
I am a born again Christian, with a son who is gay. He has accepted Christ into his life before these struggles, and has faith in God.
I have had to read Bible and pray more than before to try and understand, and this I know. My role is to love him unconditionally. Not to judge him, even though this is not the way I wish things to be. Jesus did say that if you were without sin, then cast your stones.As I read they all had the honesty to put them down.
Paul was passionately convinced and could prove with scripture why he should persecute the followers of the Way. He was passionate and sincere, but wrong.
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written by joe, June 09, 2009
there are no concessions in the bible when it comes to salvation just sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers)a person cannot be homosexual and christian this is totally wrong and any person who says this is in great error, sometimes we as christians love enough to offend, the bible says love speaks the truth, shame and guilt is a good thing the bible talks about how the sinner must be convicted of guilt and of sin for them to have any chance of repentance.

God disturbs through hardship and pain; remove the pain--for even the best of motives--and you undermine what God wants to do in that persons life. making them feel 'comfortable' wwill help build a brick wall between them and God.

the christian life is all about denying oneself and carrying our cross daily, jesus taught that a true christian is not one that puts his hand to the plough and looks back, if a sinner in this case a homosexual thinks he can stay as he is is very mistaken and to hids shame will have to hear the words of jesus " go away from me you evil doer for i never knew you".


i actually agree with Edwin and sorry Rob but i think your facebook friend is actually standing firm for the truth and you are simply whimpering to political corecteness
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written by Kenny Antony, June 10, 2009
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your sharing and for your insight. I agree with your comments and I think you have a valid point.

Some of the comments posted here seem to miss your point on God's grace. No where in your post have you tried to imply that sin is acceptable. I can se that you are trying to love all people, even if they are in sin. For God loved us and died for us while we were sinners ROM 5:8. His mercy and grace precedes His judgement.

Like you mentioned the followers of Jesus are often the marginalized and disenfranchised. He attracted them. I look at my own church and ask myself if we stil attract people like that today? Change is a process and the most effective catalyst for change is love. Keep up the good work and may God bless you and your ministry abundantly.
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written by Edwin, June 10, 2009
After reading through the comments, I realised that a lot of people do agree and want to agree with you Rob. To point out that some act is sinful is not the same as condemning the people doing it.
Homosexuality in very different from the examples that Rob quoted in the article. Like the woman (with the Dubious Past) whom Jesus forgave or the Woman with many husbands. Jesus forgave them after convicting them of their sins, telling them to sin no more and because He could forgive sin.

To put aside people who say that “it's sinful to be a homosexual” as extreme right wing fundamentalist is absurd and a fallacious argument. You are judging someone for Judging others?? (Even if they were judging). But I repeat I am not judging the person. I am judging the act. I know I am sinful and I am not claiming to be without sin when I say that the act is an abomination in God's sight. How will they know that it's wrong if we all accept them like they did nothing wrong? It hurts to have someone you know be that way, but we should not sugar coat the truth to make the truth less effective. We are to admonish one another Rom 15:14. We are to be patient but we should continue to admonish 1 Thess. 5:12-14.

If we love them then all the more reason to do it.

“The word of God is filled with a multitude of exhortations, warnings, and instructions. It takes a lot of time to communicate them all—and a lifetime to apply them.” Gene Getz, “Building Up One Another”

Romans 13:13 Warns us about living careful lives because the world is trying it's best to draw us away from God. Proverbs 23: 14 talk about punishing a child and saving his soul from hell. These are serious words what was not watered down for our liking.

The people that Christ condemned in the Bible were stiff necked self righteous men who thought they were better than anyone else.

If we don't say what's right and wrong then how can a preacher get up and speak from God's word with Authority or a parent teach their children, right from wrong.

It's so convenient to put the truth away because the people saying it are supposedly judgemental. Nowhere in the bible does it say accept the sinful fellow Christian and ignore their sinful way of living, The bible consistently tell us just the opposite, i.e. to bring a fellow believer into the right walk Acts 20:31. We are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.

I'll pray for your son Mark F that he'll come to repentance and live right with God. I can't imagine the pain that you must bear knowing that He is walking away from God's will in his life. I certainly believe that God hears the cries of His children and answers them.
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written by Frank, June 10, 2009
Rob would homosexuality come under sexual imorality? Then the Bible definitely talks about it, right. You said in your article that it's not mentioned by Christ. But are we to disregard all the teachings of Paul and the other Apostles?
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written by Andrew , June 11, 2009
Hey Edwin
Christ said Rom 8 "Has no one condemned you?" 11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," THEN Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
It seems to me that first Christ accepts the sinner and then addresses the sin, as Bella said we as Christians need to stop doing the work of the Holy Spirit.

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written by joe, June 11, 2009
"Is Jesus Anti-Gay?" asking that is like asking is jesus anti abortion? both are very deceptive and stupid questions, the bible never contradicts itself so if other passages from the bible say homosexuality is a abomination than jesus was well aware of this biblical fact. "church has changed check it out" ye its changed alright sadly not for better but for worse,
Gods word never changes, these modern day churches are a disgrace, its all about the rock n roll, loud music worship or should i say worship music because thats what it is people coming to church to experience a rockn roll freak show.
Is it any wonder the world does not take the church seriousely, than there are some christians who believe in evolution, like God needs to use death and destruction before he makes anything, it all may sound unrelated but to compromise here and there means the saltiness of christians is gone and the world looks at us as being the same as them. We are in a war.
This political correctness crap is getting old and killing us.

jesus is impressed by courage, read Revelations 21:6-8
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written by Jon Newton, June 11, 2009
Well said Rob. We've said for years "God hates the sin but loves the sinner"; it's a bit of a cliche but expresses a real truth that we have trouble living up to at times
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written by Anon, June 13, 2009
Hi all,

I would love to say I agree or disagree. There is many who believe what the current Bible writen says. Homosexuality is a sin. But as I have researched and found (By Rob Himself who researched better than I) that the word Homosexual was put into the bible in 1946. Before then the word was not in there. I would love for you to hear Rob examin this topic on Radio. Its not done in all its fullness but what he goes into has me thinking differently.

http://faithandlife.mypodcast.com/2009/06/ Discussion_on_Homosexuality_Ps_Rob_Buckingham_Faith_Lif e_Jun_2nd-213753.html

Its a full on topic that we need to go into with a clear mind. Stop putting all your extream views into it and look at it from the point of view that Jesus had.

Many "Ex" Gays will tell you they didnt come to church to change their sexuality they found a God who loved them beyond what anyone else could give.

Anyway we will always have extreamist either way. I chose to live a life of love and love others as God loves me. Not try change them because that is not my place. But help guide them to find the Love that God gives so freely.

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written by Chiron, June 15, 2009
Annon,

Please stick to the Bible.. The word “homosexual” might have been added in the bible in recent history but the description of the Act has always been there Leviticus 18:22 (NIV) 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman”. It cannot be clearer that that. If one studied etymology they would know that. Many languages are not as rich as English and don't have several expressions but what part of the Romans 1:26-32 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-11do you not get?
And calling Christians who are trying to learn and live Godly lives "judgemental and hypocrites"?? That is just absurd and moving away from biblical teachings. Joe’s comments above are true. There are numerous Bible verses in the new testament that speaks strongly about this: 1 Timothy 1:9-10, 2 Peter 2:6, and Jude 7
and others in OT including Ezekiel 16:49 and 1 Kings 15:11-12: It is right in the sight of the Lord to speak up against Sin and the Sinful nature of Man.
1 Tim 3:5 talks about people like you. If you have read Luke 6:37, at least read the whole chapter and don't take things out of context. It’s talking about people who were themselves living in the "same sin" and pretending to be Godly while Judging others. It's not talking about Christians who have found Christ and are living lives with Christ in the Centre of it. I was a terrible sinner till I came to Christ.. I still sin but not wilfully and I come to the Lord for Forgiveness with a repentant heart. Inviting and accepting Gays into church is what Christ would want us to do.. While showing and telling them from the bible that it is a Sin that God hates... Don't give the Impression that God is ok with it.. or that Christians are ok with it.. I don't understand how you can claim to be a Christian and be quite about something like this..
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written by Rob Buckingham, June 15, 2009
Hi Joe,

Thanks for your comments to my blog. After reading your email I think you may have misunderstood where I'm coming from. My blog is not about making a moral judgment on anyone, it's simply suggesting that as Christians our job is to accept people and be kind to them just as
Jesus is.

I am not for abortion, but I have ministered to women who have had
abortions. My job is not to condemn them (they usually already feel
condemned) but to lead them to the source of forgiveness - Jesus. I don't
believe in evolution but that doesn't mean that I'm aggressive or unkind to
those who do. It's the same with homosexuals. I know what the Bible says
about homosexuality. What I'm trying to say in my blog is that gay people
must be allowed to come to Jesus and find forgiveness and grace. My concern
is that invariably the church puts up a big "Not Welcome" sign and these men
and women never even start on the journey of faith as a result. "Something
is radically wrong when the local church rejects a person accepted by Jesus"
- Brennan Manning.

May I recommend a book to you that may help you in your understanding of
this topic a little better: "Love is an orientation" by Andrew Marin.

Feel free to write back to me with your thoughts.

Yours in Christ,

Rob Buckingham
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written by Shane., June 17, 2009
Chiron, Anon may not be a christian for all you know. And even if they are they might themselves be a Gay person still trying to find somthing. Lets help others find the true Christ, the come as you are Christ who takes us on a journey. Many come to Christ with baggage they carry around with them for a long time, some let go the moment they accept christ. I myself have lived in the gay lifestyle and know how it is to feel the condemnation from fellow christians. It took time for me to see what God wanted for me as it would for many in all types of circumstances. The big picture is to Love and let God guide people in the direction of forgivness. I found that by finding this out myself with God it was far more impacting than having a bunch of christians telling me what I did was wrong. Anon you may miss the point of Homosexual not being in the bible. It is important to look at though the bible in all its fullness and let truth speak out of it. That word that God created. And I hope that you can find christians who are willing to love and help you through whatever you chose.

I am so glad that this subject is being talked about. The Gay community is in need of people who are willing to step out from behind their religiousness and really be there for them. It needs voicing because up until now too many churches have hidden behind the anti gay message and not reached out to God's children. I know for me my Gay friends are such amazing loving people and if you got to know them you would find they will also see the love within you.

God Bless ya'll!!
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written by Chiron, June 17, 2009
Hello Shane,
Thank you for taking the time to write that message out. It's wonderful to know what God has done in your life. After reading your message I realised that I was too hard and it's not up to me to Judge. Everyone needs Christ and as Christians we have to learn to Love and leave the rest to Christ. I too have several hidden sins in my life which I am overcoming with the help of the Christ and His written word. I know some change comes slow and Praise God for His unending mercy. But if we who know the truth close the doors then what hope is there for the world.
Regards,
Chiron.
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written by Shane, June 17, 2009
Chiron,

Don't feel bad your views aren't wrong, the church for a long time has taught us to address this issue this way. And you have the right things to say its how we deliever the news that I think needs to be worked on.
Homosexual people know the views of the church because the church is the first place to point out their sin. We need to be people of Love more than ever in our world today, for if we are not we are pushing more people away from this amazing family we have. My friends first thing they say when I talk about the church is that its a place of contradiction. Because we preach Love,grace and hope but become very negative when it comes to Homosexuality. Like Ps Rob said above "our job is to accept people and be kind to them just as Jesus is." "My job is not to condemn them (they usually already feel condemned) but to lead them to the source of forgiveness - Jesus"

I know Gay people within the church fear coming out as Gay to people not because they themselves think its wrong but more because of fear they will lose friends and be told to leave the church. There isn't a lot of programs for gay people within the church. Homosexuality is much harder than the Black and White subject we think it to be. For there is a lot of layers to someone who is wrapped within the homosexual world. Its not just something that goes away as you said yourself Chiron that you have some sin hidden sins that will take time to battle. The best part about Jesus is his love is still there even through out the sins we commit.

Another hard part about this subject is more men are becoming Gay than ever before. Because the world is becoming more accepting they feel that they now should just do it because its the label that best explains them. You'll find men who are feeling very lonely because the truth is they chose to be Gay but they have a burning desire deep in their hearts to marry and have children. And the world tells them its alright to be Gay everything will be fine. And we find them suicidal and a lot take their loves because of this.
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written by Frank, June 18, 2009
Shane!
"I know Gay people within the church fear coming out as Gay to people not because they themselves think its wrong but more because of fear they will lose friends and be told to leave the church".
That sentence is really difficult to understand. You realise one cannot live a gay lifestyle and know God personally at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive. If you have God in your life you can't live a Gay lifestyle. Its not fair in worldly terms but that's God's terms. You can only choose one. You of all people should know that having come out of that lifestyle. God's word actually says that it's an Abomination in God's sight.
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written by Ruth, June 27, 2009
Well said by Rob and Jon re: "Is Jesus anti-gay?", that "Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner". This applies to whatever the sin coming from our hearts, as described in Romans 1-2, for example: sexual(promiscuity, adultery, homosexuality), hatred, murder, greed, gossip and hypocrisy.It's interesting that in Ezek. 16:49 the Lord says "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned, they did not help the poor and the needy." The gay lifestyle can be seen in the bigger context of a lifestyle of total selfishness, greed,arrogance and disregard for the poor and the injustice of the world. That includes the self-indulgence and hypocrisy of self-righteous Christians: Rom 2:24 applies,"God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." But praise God, He has given us a way out of our selfishness, depravity and hypocrisy! Jesus took God's punishment for that sin, on the Cross, so we can experience God's mercy and forgiveness.But even more awesome than that, Jesus was resurrected, God has provided the lifestyle of the Holy Spirit to set us free from our sin and selfishness: "Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature."(Gal 5:16-17) A lifestyle being filled with and led by the Holy Spirit of God's love, is the ONLY solution for our sinful lifestyle, whether it be expressed as self-indulgent heterosexuality, homosexuality, or even hypocritical finger-pointing! There is FREEDOM in JESUS through LIFE in the HOLY SPIRIT!! That's the message our church and world need to hear!! smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by Nick, July 20, 2009
I'm a gay man that came across this 'interesting' post from Facebook. I for one, dont understand why on earch a gay person would even want to step into a church. You "Christians" cant even make up your mind if you like us or not. Some totally hates us, some accepts us with conditions, and some want to bring us to Jesus hoping one day we'll change. None of you, however, can say that I am accepted just as I am. All of you already passed judgement and think there is something wrong with me in the first place. Now, dont get me wrong, most or all gay people already know that the church hates gays so its not a big surprise to us, and its nice and all that some christians are saying nice things about gays but really, action speaks louder than words and there arent any action at all from the church are there.

I'm also a bit disturbed by some people calling homosexuality a "wilful" sin. I dont quiet understand that comment. I have been attracted to the same sex for as long as i can remember. I never made a wilful choice to like guys over girls. Do christian guys make a wilful decision at some point in their life to prefer girls over guys? For me, being with a women wasnt an option. It wasnt a wilful act. And with the pain and suffering I had to endure when people make fun of my sexuality, why would I wilfully chose that kind of life? You christians have absolutely NO idea. You talk about love and it can be packaged sooo nicely and sweet, but when you have a taste you realise that its full of conditions. Again, no idea. One can only read at some of the comments at this post to realise that. Love with conditions is not love. Well, not to me anyway. But I'm not the one claiming to be the experts. You are.

Ps, if you guys are so into your Bible than why dont you also follow the other commandments in it like not allowing woman to speak in leadership. Doesnt the Apostle say that somewhere in the New Testament?
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written by P.K., July 22, 2009
I find it amusing how much controversy exists around the issue of homosexuality and an appropriate Christian response. Society is by no means as decadent and immoral as it was in Christ's time, the Roman Empire being the epitome of godless and immoral behaviour. Who truly cares or mourns anyway, the homosexual lobby is gaining such immense control upon political affairs, there's really no way the Church of God, in its weak and defenceless state has any chance of maintaining even a glimmer of post Christian values within society. The best we can do is counter the mass propaganda of the media through an abundance of Christian conversions, expressing the love of God in practical ways by our good works and holding forth the Word of God without apology or retraction. Peace
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written by Rob Buckingham, August 04, 2009
Hi Nick. Thank you for the comments on my blog “Is Jesus anti-gay?” You raise some very good and fair points. You are correct that Christians hold all sorts of attitudes towards gay people. As a Christian, and pastor of a church, I sometimes find the attitudes of fellow Christians embarrassing. We have a number of gay men and women in our church and they are accepted just the way they are – just like everyone else is. Of course in any church you’ll always find a mixture of opinion on different subjects including homosexuality. I can’t be responsible for everyone’s opinion but I can, as the leader of our church, bring an attitude of acceptance and kindness to all people. This is expressed in my follow up blog called “The acceptance controversy.”

It saddens me to think that many gay people think the church hates them. The church in general has done a pretty average job over the centuries in some areas, but, on a more positive note, the church has also made an amazing difference to our world. The African slave trade was abolished through the role of Christians. Because of Christians we have schools, universities and hospitals. Over the centuries the church has grappled with different issues. You quote one in your comments – about women speaking in the church. Deeper study of the context of bible texts often gives a very different picture to a surface reading. Many Christians are starting to take a deeper look at the Bible passages concerning homosexuality.

As you say, you have suffered from the unwise actions and words of people because you are a gay man. Jesus would treat you with gentleness, kindness and respect; and Jesus (I believe) expects His people to have the same attitude. Please accept my apologies for the attitude of some Christians towards you and other gay people.
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written by Steve, August 17, 2009
Rob, I have been a Christian for many years. I had a number of homosexual encounters. I have been married for nearly 26 years. In that time I have never had a sexual encounter with another male. But, I am not the most masculine person. I find that the world judges me because I still struggle with insecurities, as being gay. Christians I have worked with are often gracious but, harbour the attitude that I am gay. Do I still find men attractive? Yes, at times. Women, occasionally. The fact that God has helped me stay free of gay relationship or sexual encounter has not made life any easier for me. I find I must choose almost daily how I will respond to people. I haave no intention of bringing God into disrepute, but I, like others I suspect, need a place to be, so I can express my struggle without condemnation or belittlement. There are very few places in Christendom that provide this.
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written by anonymous, August 24, 2009
nick, sorry but you don't know everything about gays either. as a gay man, I know gay men +women who have chosen that orientation after a time of confusion about their sexuality + been very hurt inrelationships with the oposite sex, + reject the other sex as too hard + get turned on by the same sex, no baby probs 2. I kno many gays who check out churches lookin for god,but wuld neva neva come out to christians, they'll tell u all the stuff bout how much god loves you, then they just walk away from you, dont even kno what to say.they luv each otha but not you. no wonder we walk away
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written by Davide, September 01, 2009
Im sorry, but discrimination IS discrimination. Ignorance breeds fear and ill judgement. Through out history the bible - and many 'holy' books - have been used for power, control and the rejection of certain minority groups. Being black, female and gay have all been attacked by christians over the course of human history with the bible being used as evidence. Thank GOd - literally - that we have most of the population intelligible enough to know now that being black is normal and being a female in society is as of equal value to a male. So too has the scientific evidence mounted for gay individuals that society is beginning to understand that it is NORMAL and actually healthy for people to love themselves for who they are and act accordingly. It seems, from a 3rd person's point of view, that the church is being dragged through the sand by reason and science to bring it into the light of day of the 21st century.
It is sad that within the gay population, the incidence of youth suicide, drug taking, STI's, mental and physical abuse by family and friends occurs at a higher rate. The fact that we are stuck in a corner, unaccepted and chastised by certain elements of society and continue to watch by while people try to erode away our civil rights and our existence is testimony for us to keep fighting and never giving up.
I am worth it. My partner is worth it. We both deserve to be recognised and accepted in society not just as civil partners, but as husband and husband...amongst my beautiful, loving and supportive parents and friends - who i must add come from ALL different religions and races.
Please, question what you read. Be skeptical and do your own research into issues. Speak to people from not just the church, but other races and religions - or no religion. It just might get you thinking outside the square you live in.
Thank you. Peace.
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written by Lamb, October 19, 2009
Pst Rob - Great sermon pastor on "Real Christianity is accepting".
God bless you greatly.

http://www.psa91.com
Singapore
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written by Ann Maree, October 19, 2009
Oh dear!! Now that I have read Rob's comments (and those of others), I have a few things to say. As a woman in a committed relationship with another woman, and someone who loves God deeply, I don't feel the need to "come back to God" because I never left Him. And neither did He leave me. There are many things I have done wrong but being with a woman isn't one of them. I left the Church because my sexuality wasn't acceptable there but my strength and faith in God matured. It had to - I had little else.

Regarding comments about homosexuality and the bible, there needs to be better teaching from a historical and cultural context and less emotion on this issue. For instance, in Lev when men are instructed not to lie with men, it was because engaging in sexual acts that would 'waste' their seed (i.e. not allow its use for reproductive purposes) was frowned upon since there had been a decree given to grow the population which would ensure safety and strength in numbers. The word "abomination" needs to be looked at in its original meaning. It does not mean what we interpret it as today. Then it was considered 'not the done thing' rather than abhorrent, not because of the homosexual act, but because there was a sociological need and known decree that the population had to increase. Remember too that there are many, many rules in Lev that we don't adhere to today in our particular cultures. For instance, we don't worry what different cloths we wear together and menstruating women are allowed to associate with others in the community.

Like I've said before in other contexts, if we only learnt to love and focused on that and nothing else, as well as really educating ourselves at bible schools that look at the whole of scripture, without taking it out of context, this issue of homosexuality would be a non starter.
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written by Ann Maree, October 19, 2009
To the person answering Chiron: With regards to one of the comments above, who in their right mind would choose to be gay??? With men especially, who do you know who has chosen this path? I know plenty of gay men and women and they certainly didn't choose this. With the persecution evident here and in the owrld, it's a difficult road to take.
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written by Ann Maree, October 19, 2009
Hi Ruth

It's nice that you've mentioned a variety of sins, rather than focusing on homosexuality. Just curious though - why is homosexuality self indulgent? I'm in a same sex relationship and know many others who are and self indulgent is the word I'd use to describe them.

Ann Maree
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written by Ann Maree, October 20, 2009
P.K

Glad you find it amusing. Not so to those of us being persecuted and excluded and certainly not to God. Nick makes good points. There needs to be lots of focus, teaching and application on unconditional love. The beliefs and ideas people are so attached to are less important. Being "right" and winning arguments is also not so important.

Ann Maree
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written by Ann Maree, October 20, 2009
From my point of view, and many others in the GLBT community, that old chestnut "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is just another slap in the face. It's a form of non acceptance even when dressed up as loving or delivered with genuine good intent. Totally cringe worthy and painful. It lets me know that I can't really be myself and that I am regarded as wrong. I talked with a pastor about my same sex relationship and love of God. He invited me to his church but suggested I stay quiet about my lifestyle! I said I couldn't do that, and that if asked wanted to be open and transparent, not secretive. Sadly, I felt like a second class citizen, not unlike black people did when expected to attend their own gatherings or be segregated within mixed congregations. I declined his invitation, not wanting to go backwards in my psychological growth and truth. After all, I know God doesn't want me to be dishonest or a second class citizen.

Ann Maree
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written by Ann Maree, October 20, 2009
Yes Davide. I'm all for enquiring minds and intelligent people who question things from all angles and perspectives. Thank you. Well said. And yes, all loving relationships are sacred, and yours no less.

Being divorced is also not the massive taboo it once was. Society and the church have had to change their views on that one. Having studied that subject of the bible many years ago, I realised there were just as many scriptures that permitted it as argued against, all for good reasons. I felt God's spirit and grace during that time, concluding that God was merciful and wanted the best for people, and that if this could only occur through divorce, then this was permitted, and the parties involved not loved any less (in fact probably more). This discovery was an amazing comfort to me when years later, I went through a divorce, which was completely unexpected and devastating. Well meaning Christian friends emotionally told us we were going to hell. Luckily both of us were strong enough to weather those comments, leaving the relationship on good terms and not full of hate. Needless to say, when I later realised I as a woman was attracted to women, I didn't disclose to the Christians above!!

Anyway, sorry I digressed. I wish you and your partner all the very best, as I know God would want for you. And you're right - you do deserve it. And discrimination is the abomination that I want no part of.

Ann Maree
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written by Antione, October 20, 2009
Well as I read some of these posts I am saddened and angered by the inane and insensitive comments made by some that seem to think their theological against views homosexuality are the only ones that matter. I applaud Ann Maree sayin its another slap in the face to say "love the sinner but hate the sin". Thanks Ann Maree for pointing that out.

I would like to point something else out - hermeneutics - in a word: interpretation... what makes one interpretation of the scriptures right and the others wrong? Thats an impossible question to answer because once upon a time what was an acceptable interpretation may no longer be so today. Why? Because we grow in knowledge and understanding. Its natural. Like Lot giving his daughters to the mob - SERIOUSLY what kind of dad would do this? Ok I knew about the hospitality laws before listening to the acceptance sermon but really, seriously we cant expect that we would follow that as an example of what would be good and righteous to do today. But hey the its in the bible therefore we should just accept it at face value and do what it says...right??? So in my view many of if not most christians pick out the bits and pieces they wanna believe so that it makes them feel good about themselves. Its like: Hey look at me! I am not gay, I am not committing this terrible sin of sodomy etc. So many christians think that you got it all sown up in one nice neat lil package - newsflash - the world is infintely more complicated than that. And I should know I was a christian just like some of the anti-gay posts to this blog and I was fairly full of myself just like the kind of attitudes I am reading about against glbt ppl in these comments.

What has gotten into this world - we divide and carve this world up into the have and have nots. The ones who are saved and the ones who are not, the ones who are going to heaven and the ones who are not. Are we crazy? We are all people - we are no better than each other - we have to stop making ourselves feel better at someone else's expense. This is not a christian attitude. There are many Pharisees in the church today and most of them have no clue that they are. I tell you, I got a big shock when I got out of the church and found so much out there that I found I had missed the point entirely. I would say there are more people outside the church following Jesus' example than there are in the churches. Easily. I think its good that Bayside church is looking at changing to be more accepting of homosexuality and following the trend set by David Kinnamon and Gabe Lyons but I cringe when I hear about "us and them". Its in their book 'unChristian' and its apparent from Rob's sermon too. Sure thats to be expected to some degree in terms of a church's self assessment. But I think we have to stop thinking in terms of 'us and them'. We need to build bridges and retaining 'us and them' in the slightest form will not help.

Lastly I want to ask Rob a question. I noticed that in another blog of Rob's on this website that you had strong views about a few things, one of them was gay marriage. You also mentioned that in reaching out to people it was best to keep those strong views to oneself when reaching out to glbt people.

I would like to be clear as to whether you support gay marriage or not.

Thanks

Ant



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written by lamb, October 21, 2009
Pst Rob passed over an important point in his sermon ....

(Gen 19:4 NIV) Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.

He did not highlight "All the men", when gays are only at most 5% of the population or even less. So that probably meant that the people who wanted to raped the angels were straight people, which was probably why Lot offered his daughters.

We sometimes blame others for what we have done. It is easier to say it is not my sin and put it to the poor lamb to die to us.

To even start attempting to address this issue is a brave move by Pst Rob because you ain't gonna like what you see.

Gentle lamb, singapore
http://www.psa91.com
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written by Ann Maree, October 21, 2009
Hi Ant

Yes very good point about knowledge being something that increases over time. It's not static and therefore our interpretations and wisdom grow as well.

You are so right about the 'us and them' mentality being a divide and conquering thing. It comes from a survival mechanism based on fear not love. The sooner we all realise that the sacred is everywhere and that none of us have exclusive ownership on truth or goodness, the better.

I also want to add that our use of language is important. Using lots of church-speak with the unchurched often provides another barrier to overcome. It contributes to the 'us and them' phenomena rather than building a bridge to meet others. And there's a lot of church-speak in pentecostal circles. I find it's better to speak plainly and to clarify messages to be sure I've heard things accurately.

I think it's good to be clear about issues and your wanting clarification on gay marriage is worthy of an honest response.
I'm definitely in support of gay marriage or any institution that recognises and upholds true love between people no matter what their orientation. I'm also in full support of the GLBTQI community having access to the same benefits as the rest of the population. That would be a loving stance to take irrespective of one's beliefs I would think.

Good hearing your views and thought provoking. Thank you!

Ann Maree
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written by Ann Maree, October 21, 2009
Well yes, statistically speaking most of those men were probably straight. But it's really about their behaviours being abusive that's so morally wrong and repugnant, not their orientation. Rape is a criminal and vile act to disempower others and interestingly most of the men who rape others in jails are not gay. (That's not to say that gay men don't also commit crimes). But I think we get confused sometimes about certain behaviours or groups and link things together that don't even make sense.
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written by Ann Johnstone, October 25, 2009
Rob, you're a brave man! After reading all these comments, I don't think the GLBT community will allow you to be silent on those issues that you would probably have preferred to remain in the background when facing the wider community. For there comes a time when we must nail all our colours to the mast in order to satisfy some. So my prayers are with you! smilies/cool.gif
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written by Leandro, November 13, 2009
The frase: God loves the sinner and hates sin is not a verse from the Bible, True Pastor Rob. We don't need a specific verse for that because that is what God showed over and over and still does. We also can welcome all kinds of sinners into church, thinking too that the change into His image is for all of us and it is a process, but it is not an excuse to condone something He does not condone: Sin. Also the fact that there is not big sin and small sin it is not an excuse to condone homosexuality either. Surely you know verses like Rom 6:9, 1st Cor 6:10/1 John 3:6-10 etc etc so many others that soon or late we do have to stand firm on as His followers. It is very important to make firm statements and clear views and preaching on this matter and not to create confusion. To be clear on this can cause you to have a smaller church or even to be persecuted but what a blessing if so when suffering for the truth. Please lets all be firm, clear and preach the whole truth and not half. I've known of a pastor in NZ that had the same views and welcomed all kind of sinners into the church and this is amazing and so Biblical, but there is a time that will come soon or late that we all have to stand firm and preach the Truth. This NZ pastor was confronted when a gay couple that felt so welcomed wanted to get married and he said: oh.. mmm hmmmm... this is very hard to say ( sounds familiar ?) Yes, the truth is hard to say sometimes but we have to, soon or late. Was this NZ pastor judgmental or this gay couple felt confronted by the clear Word of God giving them a chance of repentance? Are we to continue in sin that Grace may abound? By no means!
The same Spirit that gives us the love to give to them is the same Spirit that can empower us to stand firm and say what He said, not our personal views on this matter.
After I read this blog I wondered if pastor Rob would marry a gay couple... sorry if I am still confused on what it's said but I would like to have more clarity on this strong views mentioned before? lets be clear, because He is too.
( good on ya Edwin )spot on, God bless you.
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written by ruth, November 15, 2009
ann maree.. you asked why I used 'self-indulgent' to describe homosexuals?(sorry for the delay)...
If you look back at what I wrote, I was putting this discussion about sexual orientation in the bigger context of spiritual orientation. God says in Ez 16:49 that the sin of Sodom was being arrogant(proud), overfed and unconcerned: selfish & not caring about anyone else, especially those suffering poverty(on all levels) and needing care & justice. Sounds like our materialistic/ individualistic/self- & sex-obsessed culture... so it's not a generalisation that heteros or homosexuals are self-indulgent, but that some/ many PEOPLE are self-indulgent(whatever sexual orientation). Unfortunately Christians can be too.. churches can become 'bless-me' clubs only looking after themselves.
Mind you, Jude 7 is clear that 'In a similar way Sodom & Gomorrah and surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.'.. but that fire is also eventually reserved for ANYONE unrepentent and rejecting the love & truth of God in Jesus Christ, in this time of grace.

The whole hetero- homosexual divide is a simplistic one anyway, according to research done since 1940s by an American guy Kinsey, that there is in reality a spectrum of sexual orientation from 'pure'100% heterosexual to 'pure' 100% homosexual and a range of levels of bisexuality in between. He and his Kinsey Sexuality Research Institute have found that sexuality & sexual orientation changes between people and over a lifetime, on the range/spectrum from homo- bi- heterosexual. Human sexuality is complicated & can't be described with neat simplistic categories.
I found this to be true over a lifetime struggling with these issues, and perticularly when I lived in a lesbian-feminist house in Sydney affiliated with a Women's Refuge from Violence: women range sexually from those who grow up feeling sexual attraction to other women and/or men, and those whose sexuality changes in response to life experiences, particularly traumatic experiences of sexual assault or abuse from males or females.
Also, how to respond to the argument that many homosexuals are not living promiscuous lives, but are couples in a stable, loving, faithful "marriage-like' relationship? As you taught Rob,we love & accept people,as Jesus does, homo- or straight- or any degree in between, and trust God that through the Holy Spirit we are all, whatever orientation, being transformed into who Jesus really wants us to be.
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written by ruth, November 16, 2009
ann maree.. you asked why I used 'self-indulgent' to describe homosexuals?(sorry for the delay)...
If you look back at what I wrote, I was putting this discussion about sexual orientation in the bigger context of spiritual orientation. God says in Ez 16:49 that the sin of Sodom was being arrogant(proud), overfed and unconcerned: selfish & not caring about anyone else, especially those suffering poverty(on all levels) and needing care & justice. Sounds like our materialistic/ individualistic/self- & sex-obsessed culture... so I'm not making a generalisation that heteros or homosexuals are self-indulgent, but that some/ many PEOPLE are self-indulgent(whatever sexual orientation). Unfortunately sometimes Christians can be too.. churches can become 'bless-me' clubs only inwardly looking after themselves & disregarding others in need.
Mind you, Jude 7 is clear that 'In a similar way Sodom & Gomorrah and surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.'.. but that fire is also reserved for ANYONE unrepentant and rejecting the love & truth of God in Jesus Christ, in this time of grace.

The whole hetero/ homosexual divide is a simplistic one anyway, according to research done since 1940s by an American Kinsey, that there is in reality a spectrum of sexual orientation from 'pure/100%' heterosexual to 'pure/100%' homosexual and a continuing range of levels of bisexuality in between. He and his Kinsey Sexuality Research Institute have found that sexuality & sexual orientation changes between people and over a lifetime, on the range/spectrum from homo- bi- heterosexual. Human sexuality is complex & can't be described with neat simplistic categories.
I've found this to be true over a lifetime wrestling with these issues, and particularly when I lived in a lesbian-feminist household in Sydney affiliated with a Women's Refuge from Violence: women range sexually from those who grow up feeling sexual attraction to other women and/or men, and women's(and men's) sexuality changes in response to life experiences, particularly traumatic experiences of sexual assault or abuse from males or females. Thank God who can and does heal us.
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written by ruth p, November 18, 2009
Ann Maree... sorry if parts of that last entry came across as judgemental re self-indulgence & homosexuals & ppl in general... I'm no way perfect & it's hypocritical of me to make out that I'm anything else... and I've been thru the chains of self-obsession & looking-inward that comes with life in this society & that comes with trauma & pain & anger & hatred at being betrayed... by my supposedly 'Christian' husband & a pastor & supposedly Christian others.. it's hard to juggle the paradox that Jesus loves us unconditionally... but that He confirmed that there's a future judgement.. especially as i have lesbian/gay/ bi friends who unfortunately think I'm insane to have faith in Jesus & it hurts... but desparation made me cry out to God & He's answered me & healed me a lot(Bayside Church has been a big part) & I'm free enough now to be able to forgive & be able to live more caring about others esp. ppl needing care & justice etc.my relationship with Jesus has made a difference.
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written by Vince, November 21, 2009
Your sermon "Real Christianity is accepting" is the best and most touching I've ever heard. I wrote about you in my blog http://tr.im/FnJ6
God bless you!
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written by SBG, December 05, 2009
Rob thank you for this message of grace - it is refreshing. Of course grace is external to our nature and thus hard to accept - you see it reading through this blog.
Edwin, please continue reading Romans - 1:26-27 is followed by 2:1
SBG
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written by Renea, December 12, 2009

Bravo Rob for raising this topic, its a doozy
It makes me sad to read some of the openly hateful views and positions of people

I describe myself as a Christian meaning I try to live my life following the teachings of Rabbi Jesus whom I believe to be the Son of God who came here to save me and through the example of His life help to get my life back into the relationship with God the way we were born to be

I sin every single day, I am rude, arrogant, deceitful, use swear words, I drink, I swear, I smoke sometimes and I gossip over coffee, I use too much water and not on my allocated day, eat too much good food, I don't recycle enough blah blah blah - I do all sorts of things that are bad for my body, soul and spirit & world ... I am HUMAN
Jesus was HUMAN too - He never did anything in HIS own way - Everything JESUS did was through HIS relationship with the GOD OF LOVE

God convicts me every day and I try to be a better person because of Him and His Love for me
I am certain that by the time I take my last breath I will have lived the life God gave me to live with His help and full of my own choices, mistakes and consequences and I will be grateful that He has been with me all the days of my life and I will be welcomed into Heaven

The new testament is Gods new covenant with us, He sent His son to save us ALL
Not just the ones that are don't swear, or have blue eyes, or don't cheat on the tax return, or don't gossip with their friends, or weigh less than 70 kgs, or don't have a laugh at the pub, or bet on the horses on Melbourne cup, or stick $2 in the pokies, or forget to honor their mother by calling her on her birthday

God made us ALL, like it or lump it folks HE made us ALL
Humans are in this world together - There is no where else to go people
We need to learn to live with each other and we can only do that as an act of our will - to Love each other as God simply asks us to do
Although I am sure if some people had their way there would be a place for the drinkers, a place for the gamblers, a place for the gays, a place for the boat people, a place for the fatties, a place for the disabled, a place for the schizophrenics etc etc etc
You get my drift
There is plenty of evidence in the world of ethnic cleansing so please stop trying to 'morally cleanse' our society off people whose lives you doesn't approve of
Stop being so full of 'your religion' and passing judgment on others so as to stop another person from knowing Gods love for them - thats what I call a real sin

God is LOVE.... Full Stop. The opposite of Love is HATE.

As a Christian we either serve The God of Love or we don't
I am going to say that again ....
As a Christian we either serve The God of Love or we don't

No where in the bible does God tell us to judge others - NO WHERE!
If we are true followers of Jesus and God then our job is to Love others and Love God with all our hearts
Any other position on this means you are not truly serving The God of Love
By choosing to judge others one chooses to open the door for the spirits of this world such as hatred, bigotry, judgment, criticism, religiousness, arrogance, pride etc etc etc to come into their lives

Each person has their own path in life
God made everyone of us and he knows each of us intimately as He formed us in our mothers wombs as the bible tells us
God didn't just make some of us and the rest of us were manufactured by the Chinesesmilies/smiley.gif - yes they do make everything tho smilies/smiley.gif
He made ALL of us, even Hitler
God planned everyday of our lives
He also gave us the free will to make our own choices, some good and some bad but all choices have consequences which have a flow on effect like a flowing river
Our choices have the ability to give Life or Death to others

God/Jesus gave us the the authority to heal and love each other
To use the bible to uphold our own judgments and beliefs about the way others live their life then we break relationship with The God of Love
Essentially we try to usurp His authority over our lives by trying to be God and do His job
Its not our place to judge others, only God can do that.
Our role is to Love others and Love God

PS - Anyone read "The Shack" - Great Book

Go Rob and Christie - praying for ya

love and blessings
the wayward child
Renea
xx

smilies/smiley.gif
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written by zizi paltos, January 27, 2010
You are most certainly not a wayward child Renea, YOU are God's child !
I loved reading your comments. You have a big heart and you are REAL !
I like you, believe that LOVE is the only way to "GOOD", it is after all the food of the soul and spirit, so as Christians or inhabitants of this Universe, it is of the utmost importance that we follow Jesus's philosophy regarding " love thy neigbour"
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written by John Edwards, February 12, 2010
My understanding is that Jesus found a way to show mercy to the woman taken in adultery whilst at the same time upholding the Law. Everything Jesus did EXPLAINED the true intent of the Law, rather than contradicting it. So He was acting within the requirement of the Law when He said, "Neither do I condemn you - go and sin no more" - because the Law required eyewitnesses; and the eyewitness was to be the first to cast a stone at her. Not a single person remained to condemn her. So due to the absence of witnesses, Jesus was not required by the Law to condemn her. It's a mistake to interpret the text to mean that Jesus rode rough-shod over the righteousness of the Law in the name of grace. Jesus found a way to allow mercy to triumph over judgment without actually changing the meaning of justice. In fact, instead of diluting the meaning of justice, it so happened that as a result of the way Jesus handed the situation, all those men went home that day with a stronger personal conviction about the righteousness of the Law than they'd ever felt before - and yet mercy, not judgment, had been shown. Only God's wisdom can achieve this! Man's wisdom errs either on the side of lacking mercy, or on the side of lawlessness. But God's heart finds a way to let mercy triumph over judgment without diluting anything. That's the true Gospel.
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written by anonymous, February 15, 2010
I ask God to help me to love others, not to judge others, and to guide me in how to live a life which will reflect that I am saved by his Grace, this also includes not using to much water during water restrictions.
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written by allan lambert, March 02, 2010
It is good to see so much honest thought on this topic for "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" and as one who has been granted by the God of all love and mercy the gift,the free gift of repentance which leads to salvation thru the shed blood of Christ that atones for all sin consider these few thoughts of mine based on scripture.
1/ God made man in His own image and likeness
2/Jesus came to save that which was lost
3/Apostle John says "when we see Him we will be like Him"
Then John adds to this " every one(EVERYONE) who has this hope(THIS HOPE) purifies himself"
4/God Himself has said" be holy for I AM Holy"
so then the end of the purposes of God is to restore and make those who submit to His Authority ONE with Him forever........................
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written by allan lambert, March 02, 2010
as members of the Body of Christ scripture confirms that "the spiritual man judges all things and is himself not judged"
There is nothing wrong with judging if it is in accordance with what is written in scripture"all scripture is God breathed and .................equips the man of God for every good work"
Paul teachs( in Romans 2) that in order to judge someone we must not judge against what we ourselves are doing the same sin and this is exactly what the Lord was saying about pulling specks out of others eyes. pull the plank out of our own eye FIRST THEN pull the speck........So there is nothing wrong with judging righteously.but judging HYPOCRITICALLY is the context of the Lords Words
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written by Janine, March 21, 2010
Hmmm- what else is up for reinterpretation? You'll love this link:

http://sacredsandwich.com/archives/5575
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written by Azza, May 16, 2010
Hi Ps Rob I have been in your church for just over 2 months. I am a christian and also happen to be gay. I have listen to your sermon many times on Real Christianity Part 2 on acceptance. I was very anti church for 10 years and felt that God did not love me anymore. I was very hesitant coming back to a church and I feel bayside is the right feel for me. I am a moral gay person and have come from a strong faith background. I know for the majority of bayside members particularly young adults and regen Homosexuality is an uncomfortable topic to discuss. There are I know since attending bayside quite a number of gay men that attend the church service. All I know is that I want to praise and worship God with all my heart mind and soul in a safe and comfortable environment. I dont want to be Judged as just a freak or just a homosexual, I am a unique individual created by God and basically Jesus died for me and loves me for the way I am. I hope and pray that Bayside Church will continue to welcome and fully accept the GLBT community
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written by Kevin, April 23, 2011
I don't think that your view is strong enough. Jesus never condoned sins but welcomed repentant sinners. No one condemns the sinners but the sins,no none condemns the homosexuals but the practice of homosexuality - this is where you got it wrong.As Christians, we should be vocal against sins but not the sinners; Christ was!This Christian complacency of pleasing some politicians and trying to be at peace with the world should be done away with.God's stance against homosexuality is very clear having destroyed a nation of Sodom and Gomorrah for such nasty act - read Genesis 18 and 19. So what are you talking about? Yes we need to show these people love as Christ commands but we need to tell them the truth that it is evil. If this is not done, am afraid even your church will very soon produce gay preachers and Sodomist worshippers.Despicable!
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written by Knee male., April 23, 2011
A hot topic indeed. The self righteousness that Christians are accused of is just as prevalent amongst homosexuals as in “you have to accept me but I will only accept you if you accept me.” Go figure.

Two things are important if we are going to understand the subject in question, and I speak as one who has counseled many homosexuals out of their homosexuality.

First, the problem is not the homosexuality. It is what causes the homosexuality that we have to concern ourselves with. This is important as focusing on the homosexuality means that you are not dealing with the reason for the action. Homosexuality is a choice in response to emotional trauma. This is mostly evident in an experience of rejection at an early age, usually by the father who is non existent, distant, alcoholic or was rejected by his own parents so he is unable to form a bond with his own children.

The rejection may be actual or perceived, but either way, it colours every decision a person makes and as a result, the person makes decisions based on this experience to either find acceptance or to prevent themselves from being hurt again. This is known as a “reparative drive” or a “defensive detachment.”

For the homosexual, sex equates to love and acceptance and that is why so many of them are promiscuous, which is really sad because the sex is to satisfy a need so it can never be as a result of love.

Second, the bible in its general revelation and that is what has to inform us, is that ALL sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is sin. That being the case, God does not approve of sin, which means of course he does not approve of homosexuality, or fornication or adultery or…..

That being the case, no one can say that God accepts me AND my sin. If that were the case, there would have been no need for Jesus to die on the cross for sin. If we insist that is the case, then we have to accept that God accepts me with my lying, or stealing, or my fornication, or my greed, or my gluttony, or my lying.

In fact, one need not be born again even as such a statement obviates the need to change.
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written by Knee male., April 23, 2011
None of you, however, can say that I am accepted just as I am. All of you already passed judgment and think there is something wrong with me in the first place. Nick.

This is a sweeping generalization that too many homosexuals indulge in without any evidence and says more about the writer than the claim made.

In the forefront of the AIDS epidemic are Christians who have devoted themselves to providing care and nurture to AIDS victims.

In the majority of cases, those involved with helping homosexuals to leave behind their homosexuality are Christians.

I used to take up a whole row of seats in the church with my counselees. Most knew who they were but nobody batted an eyelid.

Vague generalizations are not helpful to a discussion of this nature.
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written by Knee male., April 23, 2011
I'm also a bit disturbed by some people calling homosexuality a "wilful" sin. I dont quiet understand that comment. I have been attracted to the same sex for as long as i can remember. I never made a wilful choice to like guys over girls. Do christian guys make a wilful decision at some point in their life to prefer girls over guys? For me, being with a women wasnt an option.


Another fallacy Nick. Considerable research and testimony shows that having a same sex attraction (SSA) is not a choice. Being homosexual is. At any stage of life, jumping into bed with a guy or a girl is a choice that you and I make. Not jumping into bed with a girl or guy is a choice that we all make.

Being a promiscuous homosexual or heterosexual is a choice that is made by everyone. Not being so again is a choice. If a man says that he wants to have sex with me I can say yes or not. If a woman says she wants to have sex with me I can say yes or no. Being sexually active with a man or a woman is choice everyone makes.

The "no choice" idea came into being when the gaystapo decided that they were born homosexual. That way, they said they could make it a civil rights issue rather than a sexuality issue.
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written by Tina Currie, June 29, 2011
WWJD? Jesus is God the son, part of the Trinity. Right? So what would God do?

Well, let's look at the ENTIRE BIBLE - that means the OLD and New Testament. I don't claim to have a pastor's knowledge on the word of God, BUT God did make it pretty clear about his feelings on homosexual behaviour. He called it an abomination didn't He? It's called Sexual "SIN" in the Bible, along with adultery & even looking lustfully at the opp sex is SIN. One is not worse than the other, BUT they are all sin!

We have no right to judge people (remember - get the speck out of your own eye), but God has every right to judge us. In fact he WILL judge us one day - so we need to tell people the truth about what's in the word, and not give them a false sense of security about what's sin and what's not. Sorry, but homosexual sex is sin.

The good news is, Jesus came to give us forgiveness and salvation through the cross, no matter what sin we have committed. As Christians, we should strive to want to sin no more. The other good news is God has sent us the Holy Spirit to help us, as some things are impossible for us - but NOTHING is impossible for God. Even this.
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written by karen, June 29, 2011
This is the one thing I know out of all the things I dont know and cannot understand.
"This above all things love one another."
If this alone was managed no other debate is necessary.
An inclusive church is my church.
And I remember that "no man(or woman) knows the mind of God."
Shalom.
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written by stu, August 05, 2011
wow .. I think Im at the point where I want to walk away from the church.. not God , but the church. People that have such a strong view to condom others I really hope that you have gone through the process of studying the bible not just collecting second hand information to pass on to others.
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written by maurice gibney, October 24, 2011
Pastor Rob, can I ask, why should our strong view be kept to ourselves if those strong views are true! And worthy to be expressed if they are written in God’s word? Yes preach with compassion and love, but we still preach what He has shared with us. Yes, anti gay slogans should be done away with they show another sin, self-righteousness. However, remember that the gospel is also an offence to those who are perishing and we will ruffle feathers, so to speak. In other words those who love not the truth like in Romans chapter 1, God gave them over to a debased mind, gave them over to the lusts of their flesh, they “chose” from the lust of their own self righteous hearts to do away with God form the lives Rom 1:24. The lie that God loves the sinner but hates the sin should be done away with. God loves the sinner however he punishes the sin and if someone is homosexual, how can they come to Christ if they have not truly repented of their homosexuality. Then they are not truly repentant of their homosexuality, sin.

If God’s word is to be accepted as God’s inspired word, then God in Christ did address homosexuality and in the strongest way. He also addressed the sexual immoral and so on, he didn’t make excuses for their sin either by saying it’s not a choice. If there be any biological evidence of a “gay” gene then why not address this? Why not address the thousands of homosexuals that have left the homosexual lifestyle to pursue Christ and a “natural” as the Bible describes it, relationship the opposite sex. I remember that the woman that washed Jesus’ feet had truly repented. Again how can a person repent from their sin if they were living in it before and after they have “accepted” Christ as their Savior? Do we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says, being inspired by God, certainly not. The woman Jesus revealed Himself to at the well, believed that Jesus was the Messiah, I’m sure she was told to go and sin no more. Many also believed because of her testimony. Again, how can a sinner repent from a sin he is still living in, before and after he "repents." He must not understand God's judgment. Has he been given a false version of repentance? And told that God accepts Him just the way he is? Such one-liners are of the Devil because they avoid all the truth like some T.V shows on homosexuality.

I’d like to know when you use the word tolerance are you saying that God should be tolerant toward homosexuality? I’m sure He loves the homosexual but despises the sin. We being Christian’s we should tolerate and love the sinner as we are still sinners ourselves. But we should not have “tolerance” toward the sin? We may keep our opinions to ourselves but God’s truth will surface sooner or later, that all liars, thieves, adulterers and homosexuals will have their part in the lake of fire, dare we mention God’s judgment. Are you saying lets just love on them and accept them for who they are or who they are and what they do? Romans 6:1. We can show someone that we still love them and at the same time express what the Bible condemns, that would be homosexual behavior. I have seen some washing down of the truth in my time but your show the other day on homosexuality took the lead. If this offends, then without being to pushy I suggest you return to Romans chapter one for another read, and help some homosexual understand the judgment seat of Christ. I would also suggest interviewing an X homosexual on your show the next time. Would you be ok if they mentioned that they were in sin and that they actually choose the homosexual lifestyle they were in? Why not visit http://pfox.org/default.html there is always two sides to the story, please cover God's the next time.
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written by maurice gibney, October 24, 2011
Just one more question. Can you explain the thousands of men that leave their wifes and children to pursue a homosexual relationship.(And women) Where they "confused" before or after they made the choice to get married? I didn't need to sleep with a man first to know that I was attracted to women. Hence it clearly a choice as Romans 1;24 states the desire of their hearts. Can I say God bless after writing all of this? : ) I think so, God bless. I am a passionate person and if my letter seem judgmental sorry please forgive me... Thanks
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written by Jason G, October 28, 2011
Hi Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I'm gay, Christian and believe I hear God all day everyday. The words are loving and wise beyond my experience and years. I have never heard "don't be gay" and have been waiting to hear so from God for years. I have been asked by God questions, many questions for my own reflection and learning rather than God simply telling me what to think and do. I believe I have heard God ask is there a point to sex that has little meaning as opposed to spiritual union? Some of the writings above are in line with the God I hear and experience each day, but much is foreign to the God I have come to know. For those that ask is it the devil that I am hearing since I am gay? Good question. I have wondered the same. For decades then I have experienced the devil who only speaks of love, acceptance, kindness, forgiveness, understanding that all on this earth are my brothers and sisters, who shows me moment by moment the beauty and majesty of creation and who counsels me should I become negative. In decades of experiencing these living conversations, not once have I been asked to act in a way that would injure another.

God has guided me into much investigation of many topics of the years. During this, I discovered that most current Bibles possibly have translation errors, a bit like Chinese Whispers as many are based on translations from Greek to Latin to English, or Greek to German to English rather than a more direct route - from Greek to English. Now days there is considerable works that looks at translation errors including past translation being literal rather than contextual. eg 'pigs can fly' the context means 'unlikely' or similar not literal that pigs can actually fly.

My relationship with God is more than a relationship with my Bibles. The combination of the two has been rich journey. I read passages, then God often asks me to discuss my understanding or asks that I research further to aid my understanding.All I guess I can offer here is my humble suggestion. Love our brothers and sisters. Try to avoid becoming to caught up on judgement of your siblings. Allow God to be the final arbitrator.

Blessed be.

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written by Rick, January 02, 2012
ROMANS 1:27-30 HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN!!
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written by Colin Batters, January 10, 2012
Wow!
Has this opened a can of worms!! I'm amazed that so many people who say they have become Christians, don't even believe the very scripture that they must have read to even find out who this "Jesus"is. Knee you really nailed it so well with your example with regard to what is sexual sin. The reality is Jesus had to die for us because we sin. ALL of us. If we acknowledge that then we have to acknowledge that WE ,YOU and I sin, every day continually, often ,as Paul says,knowing that what we do over and over again is not what God wants in our lives. Often, and in many cases(mine too)we hate what we do, the thing that's important is WANTING to do what Jesus says is best for our lives. HE knows best and if he says my life will be better by only having sex with one woman for the rest of my life, then thats what I'll do!!!! In the flesh I'd love to have lots of partners, or be free to be promiscuous, but I believe He knows what's best for me so I "...love Him and obey His commandments ".

It is not the issue of whether we "accept" or "welcome" homosexuals in church, because we are all sinners, every one of us. The issue is are we going to turn away from sin and receive His forgiveness. 1Jn 1:9 says "if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".. this is not limited to every sin but homosexuality, God loves us all eventhough we sin and sent Jesus so that we could have fellowship with Him through Jesus' blood, which otherwise is not possible. The issue here is accepting that Homosexuality is like any other sexual sin, and any other...sin. It needs to be first recognised as sin(no matter whether it feels ok or good or "right")just like any other sin that is pleasurable and easy. Its all about trusting that if God says it is not good for us then it's not! He always knows best.
I feel sorry to hear so many homosexual people use excuses to justify believing that its not the sin that God has so clearly said it is. Do lyers and people who steal and pedophiles and murderers say the same? We don't talk about accepting murderers or rapists into a fellowship in the same way do we? When in fact it's still sin and ALL sin is an abomination to God, No rankings or degrees as far as He's concerned. We should be loving and accepting of everyone, but not accepting that everyone should continue to sin.
Satan would try to confuse us as brothers and sisters and bring in issues of judgement when God is the judge and does so by His Word both the living(Jesus)and the written(scripture). I don't think anyone would think twice about proclaiming the sin of Pedophiles as wrong from the pulpit,so why is it wrong to condemn sexual sin including adultery and homosexuality?
Love the sinner yes, but sin can't be forgiven until it is confessed, as sin.
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written by Nathan Smith, February 16, 2012
Hi Rob,

Maurice asks why Rob used the word tolerance. How about because a senior Pastor in his authority is asking members of the body to tolerate the existence of a homosexual so that he can be ministered to by the body, and by the leadership. Often, INSTEAD, its like everyones a Judge, and just like in Judges, everybody does and says what is right in his own mind. As a result what gets delivered is the stone of the law that doesnt edify ones faith. It analyses mercilessly and without humility. Dont be surprised of gay youth suicide, the loudest mouths offer judgement. Correct doctrine was the concern, and not mercy, and not the impact of words on ones faith. The simple faith that God sovereignly wants you to exist on the Earth, gay or not.
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