Pharyngula

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 28, 2010 11:03 AM

provided (as I hope), he's by then a productive member of society being reasonably recompensed for what he does.- Me

I have put in bold the most important advantage a parent could hope to pass on to their children. - llewelly

But I want that for everyone llewelly - only of course I have a particular responsibility for my son, being 50% responsible for his very existence. That's different from wanting to pass on material wealth or social status that will advantage him relative to others. OK, as things are, I won't go out of my way not to, but i'd much rather live in a society where this was not possible to anything like the extent it is now.

Posted by: Givesgoodemail | February 28, 2010 11:04 AM

Pat Allen, the woman who used to run the Alley Theater in Houston, used to use a cane covered with leather made from what was euthemistically called a "bull's goober".

Claimed it gave her the strength to do her job.

Right.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 11:07 AM

provided (as I hope), he's by then a productive member of society being reasonably recompensed for what he does.

channeling today's Doonesbury?

Posted by: Q.E.D | February 28, 2010 11:10 AM

I tasted bull penis in Bejing last year. It had a rubbery and slimy texture. It was pungent. I cannot recommend it.

I can also attest to the fact that it did absolutely nothing for my libido.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 11:26 AM

Today is blockuqote day. Almost every single instance gets spelled this way at first.

Also, 47 Things That Never Happen on Star Trek. Of course, most of them fit the rest of TV/Hollywood just as well.

Richard Dawkins has gone to the trouble of designing a test for homeopathic medicines.

Perfect. Prince Charles really should fund it.

Well, I possibly created an exaggerated impression when I said "intensive" weight-training.

So what? I've never done any training for my arms whatsofuckingever. Next to no body fat (as determined by poking and tweaking myself), probably not quite 60 kg (though I haven't weighed myself in months, perhaps years). You can't escape having more muscle mass than I and therefore weighing more, never mind the 3 cm of bone.

And younger men may need to add snacks to the five-meal regimen.

I have one big meal per day and spend the rest snacking. Grazing – continuous eating the way all other apes do it.

Speak of the devil...

Before I forget, Wiener Schnitzel isn't eaten with anything but rice and the oil it was fried in.

Posted by: Odonata | February 28, 2010 11:29 AM

Here is a first hand account of an experience with a different highly prized delicacy. Cocka-doodle-doo!

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 28, 2010 11:32 AM

Sven DiMilo@6,

Well, I'd much rather my son played the piano in a brothel, or even joined the army, than became an investment banker or private equity fund manager!

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | February 28, 2010 12:24 PM

Rice?!

No, Brasenkartofln.

Posted by: chuckgoecke | February 28, 2010 12:30 PM

Bull, or actually calf testicles are pretty standard exotic fare in the ranching areas of North America. They sometimes call them "Rocky Mountain Oysters" or just mountain oysters. At the local grocery store(Fiesta), when I've seen them, they're called "Calf Fries". Having tried them in several ways, I'd say they are okay, sort of weird tasting, like most organ meats. They are also reported to have aphrodisiac properties, which may have a minute bit of truth, especially of eaten raw. They probably do have a bit of testosterone, which if it survived cooking, and your digestion, would make you feel a bit randy. Especially if you are a woman, and not already poisoned with the stuff.

Posted by: machintelligence | February 28, 2010 12:55 PM

Here in Colorado I have heard a waitress explain Rocky Mountain Oysters to a tourist: "Them's bulls balls, maam".

Posted by: Monty Burns | February 28, 2010 1:01 PM

Bulls penis - No, thank you. personally, I prefer nursing at the wife's teets. "Milk makes strong bones".

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 28, 2010 1:10 PM

Why is it that "potency" aids never come from really prolific animals like rats? - Doug

In case this isn't a rhetorical question, it's because they wouldn't then be difficult to obtain, and thus no-one could charge a lot of money for them.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 1:14 PM

Only 22 comments so far? What is this, slow-news day!?!

I've seen it served with chips before

That's very common, but only in restaurants AFAIK.

Steamed potatoes are occasionally eaten with Schnitzel.

Brasenkartofln

Do you mean Bratkartoffeln? Fried potatoes?

Despite this, I still (irrationally?) worry about my calorie intake, especially when I'm not exercising regularly.

Eat. Eat till you stop being hungry.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | February 28, 2010 1:17 PM

Seems like a lot of effort for an aphrodisiac... what ever happened to just making out?

I remember an old Dallas episode where they were serving the balls from the steer making process at a luncheon. Texans, is this still the case?

I have not been offered any balls since I landed in Texas. At least not in a literal sense. :)

Posted by: blf | February 28, 2010 1:28 PM

Only 22 comments so far? What is this, slow-news day!?!

Recovery from Six Nations Rugbybazillion pints 'o beer day.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 1:37 PM

What cultural heritage, especially with food? Nearly every major cuisine in the country that is edible comes from people who are, or recently were, disdained minorities. When they weren't virtually wiped out, like the Native Americans.

American cuisine before the big ethnic trends starting in the 50s/60s, was to cook (usually by boiling) until all flavor is a distant memory. There wasn't much confidence around the spice cabinet, and it showed. Still does, in way too many parts of the country without heavy ethnic/minority influences.

So actually, on the food level, America has done itself a favor by rejecting its WASP culture heritage and embracing ethnic diversity. Even small cities like Tyler have

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | February 28, 2010 1:51 PM

Aquaria #666 on the last thread

American cuisine before the big ethnic trends starting in the 50s/60s, was to cook (usually by boiling) until all flavor is a distant memory.

Perhaps you meant northern American cuisine? In the South we fry everything and it's quite tasty. I can't think of anything other than cabbage and soup in our traditional, rural Southern cuisine that my family boils.

Posted by: ~Pharyngulette~ | February 28, 2010 1:58 PM

In some parts of the world, where bull fights are popular (mainly in Spain, I suspect), the balls are a highly prized delicatesse.

But isn't the bull the loser in this case? Wouldn't it be considered more desirable to snack on the balls of the clear winner - in this case, the matador's?

/snark

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | February 28, 2010 2:04 PM

Aquaria:

American cuisine before the big ethnic trends starting in the 50s/60s, was to cook (usually by boiling) until all flavor is a distant memory.

No, not at all. I have several 'Inquire Within' type books, complete with cookbooks, dating from the the 1800s. I've deciphered many of the recipes (no temps and few cooking times, this was pre-modern stoves/ovens) and the food is tasty.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | February 28, 2010 2:15 PM

Ah. Anchovies! I knew there was a reason I'd repressed the memory of that garnish. I've never had Schnitzels that way, myself.

There's even a FB page ...

Do you mean Bratkartoffeln? Fried potatoes?

Posted by: Lynna, OM | February 28, 2010 2:26 PM

Mormon Elders are working hard to add Spanish-speaking peoples to their horde (and to the tithing hoard), but they also want them to conform. Spanish speakers are encouraged to drop any cultural practices that don't jive with mormon nonsense.

More than 700 Spanish-speaking members in the San Jose, Calif., area gathered to hear Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve speak in their native tongue during a question and answer fireside held on Friday, Feb. 19, 2010....
     He also asked every member to eliminate cultural traditions inconsistent with gospel principles, accepting the culture and language of the country in which they live....
     After asking the members to identify cultural traditions they need to alter, many of the members shared personal points they planned to change. Some of the topics included attending Church regularly, punctuality in meetings, eliminating filthy language from their vocabularies and to cease the worship of "images." A less machismo attitude and eliminating watching soccer on Sundays were also mentioned.
     "Change what needs to change," Elder Scott said, asking members to prayerfully consider gospel principles and how Church members can be consistent with Latter-day Saint teachings....
     Finally, in a frank and honest exchange of questions and answers, Elder Scott asked all members to recognize and understand the customs of the country in which they live and encouraged all members to learn the language of the country where they reside. ...

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | February 28, 2010 2:38 PM

Givesgoodemail (@4):

Pat Allen, the woman who used to run the Alley Theater in Houston...

It makes me feel older than I like to admit to hear someone other than Nina Vance referred to as "the woman who used to run the Alley Theater"!

My mother was an arts critic in Houston in the 70s and 80s, and wrote a history of Houston theater¹, in which, as you might imagine, the Alley figures prominently.



¹ I clicked through to view the used copies available for sale, and was surprised at the prices being asked for them... up to $125 for a signed copy! Hell, I wouldn't pay that, and she's my mother! (Of course, I already have a signed copy....)

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 2:52 PM

the rest of the time people ate some boring, flavorless staple

Or worse. See the comment from July 30, 2009 11:39 PM at this page (I can't link to the comment directly) after having a look at the post itself.

Even in richer areas, the diet was somewhat monotonous and predictable, as explained on August 5, 2009 04:34 PM on the same page (in German, but I can of course provide a translation).

ah, so I was right. you do for some reason think only white Americans legitimately qualify as bearers of American (food) culture. WTF?

<leans back>
<pretends to eat popcorn>

you don't need to worry about calorie intake; worry about the quality of the food you're eating, instead.

Oh, that reminds me... artificial sweeteners, like those of the famous Diet Pepsi, are approved for pig fattening. Mammals, unlike bees, are fooled by the sweetness into preparing for an onslaught of sugar that doesn't come; this creates a hunger attack.

But isn't the bull the loser in this case? Wouldn't it be considered more desirable to snack on the balls of the clear winner - in this case, the matador's?

It is indeed thought by some that the winners, not the losers, of the sacred ball games of the Maya were sacrificed. Not in that way, though.

Boiled, then fried potatoes. Often a way to use leftover boiled spuds, but also made specifically for some things

Yes. To quote out of context: "yumyum".

Posted by: Mike Wagner | February 28, 2010 2:59 PM

A great show for seeing some of the "weird" stuff people eat, and actually making you want to try some is "Bizarre Foods" with Andrew Zimmern. I have a whole list of things I want to try now. He says that camel tastes like what beef should have if we hadn't bred the flavor out of it. Bring on the camel!

Angie The Atheist is still being called a murderer and sinner, among other things. Her latest video on the topic of abortion can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72oITn2ZEhE

And a little plug of shameless self-promotion here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBZ7shVluQ0
Send it to all your loving Christian friends. :P

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 3:15 PM

Pygmy brings up a good point about the variety of "American" cuisine. Before I lived in the south for three years, I thought "American" food was that boiled, un-spiced, blanched-of-all-color-and-flavor stuff I knew from growing up in the Northeast.* That stereotype about bland, boiled American food is actually true in areas and among families (like mine) that descended from the Brits and the Irish. I love ya, my UK friends, but you full well your indigenous cuisine is exactly like that:) Aside from fish and chips, you never had anything good to eat until curry takeaway became your national past-time.

I learned the uses of buttermilk, hot sauce, ham bones, and lots of other good stuff during my time in the South of the US. But on the flip side, I found that the local cuisine was just as "one-note" in its own way as what I grew up with. It was nigh-on impossible to find anything that wasn't fried, soaked in fat, or any veggies that weren't boiled with pork. I love all that stuff, but not every day, for every meal.

* Waspy Americans really have been terrified of the spice cabinet until very recently, equating "spice" with "my mouth will burn off." One of the funniest things I ever read was in the late, lamented Weekly World News. They hired a "typical American family" (I really think this was legit, not satire) to taste-test the various fried chicken sandwiches at national fast food chains. Their verdict on Burger King? "That was a little too spicy for my family." Still kills me.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 3:23 PM

I learned the uses of buttermilk, hot sauce, ham bones, and lots of other good stuff during my time in the South of the US.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 3:28 PM

minor etymology fail: apparently, the "granate" in pomegranate doesn't come from the color (deep red, or purple; which, come to think of it, probably takes its name from the fruit, not the other way round), but from a word for seeds/grains.

anyway, it's still an apple.

Posted by: blf | February 28, 2010 3:32 PM

what is it with Europeans and their habit of naming new foods "apple"?

Until recently, apple was a generic term for all fruit. Also from The Online Entomology Dictionary:

apple … As late as 17c. a generic term for all fruit other than berries but including nuts. Hence its grafting onto the unnamed "fruit of the forbidden tree" in Genesis. Cucumbers, in one O.E. work, are eorþæppla, lit. "earth-apples" (cf. Fr. pomme de terre "potato," lit. "earth-apple;" see also melon). Fr. pomme is from L. pomum "fruit."

That's something new to me, I was always wondering why the unnamed fruit in the Eden story is commonly called an "apple".

Posted by: monado | February 28, 2010 3:34 PM

Chuckgoeke, the dish is also called prairie oysters, and there was/is a band Prairie Oyster.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 3:35 PM

@Mike, #55

The fear of spicy food turns up everywhere. I've got something wrong with my guts, and a lot of foods make me violently sick - but I love spice.

I should have been more clear. The fear of spice I was talking about was the equation of flavor from spice with heat. They're not the same thing. For example, beef in much Middle Eastern cooking is highly spiced - cinnamon, cloves, garlic, onion - but it is no more "hot" than an American meatloaf. Many Americans mistake the word "spice" for "tongue-burning heat," and run away screaming.

Posted by: monado | February 28, 2010 3:41 PM

I've heard rumours that the traditional Irish shillelagh is made from a boar's penis, which is a tough and fibrous spiral. Most people say it's club of tough wood such as oak or blackthorn. Any opinion?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | February 28, 2010 3:44 PM

Josh, Official SpokesGay @ 60:

Many Americans mistake the word "spice" for "tongue-burning heat," and run away screaming.

Truth. I was lucky, both my great-grandmothers and grandmother cooked with the full range of herbs and spices. I grew up eating nicely spiced food; learned to cook that way. When I was newly married (30 some years ago), my husband was rather shocked by all the herbs & spices I bought, but he learned quickly and couldn't imagine cooking without them now.

Posted by: llewelly | February 28, 2010 3:49 PM

Why is it that "potency" aids never come from really prolific animals like rats?

Posted by: SC OM | February 28, 2010 3:58 PM

SC, #61 - Boy, am I glad to see that.

Me, too. I was hoping for something like that, which I thought there was good reason to expect after he apologized recently for something else. (I do wish he had said something about the deleted users' posts, though, and I wouldn't blame people if they were wary about being involved with Timonen still at the helm, especially since he hasn't apologized publicly for his actions.)

Before I lived in the south for three years, I thought "American" food was that boiled, un-spiced, blanched-of-all-color-and-flavor stuff I knew from growing up in the Northeast.*

*eyeroll*

That stereotype about bland, boiled American food is actually true in areas and among families (like mine) that descended from the Brits and the Irish.

It's true among some, no doubt. You shouldn't generalize like that - that's the problem with stereotypes, dude.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 4:09 PM

It's true among some, no doubt. You shouldn't generalize like that - that's the problem with stereotypes, dude.

Oh, knock it off SC. I'm allowed to make generalizations about the region and families I personally grew up in without your self-righteous eyerolling. Do you understand the difference between speaking about that which you know from personal experience, and extrapolating that unfairly to that which you don't know? There are worthier targets out there than me, SC. Aim somewhere more important. Dude.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 4:09 PM

Me, too. I was hoping for something like that, which I thought there was good reason to expect after he apologized recently for something else. (I do wish he had said something about the deleted users' posts, though, and I wouldn't blame people if they were wary about being involved with Timonen still at the helm, especially since he hasn't apologized publicly for his actions.)

Posted by: NitricAcid | February 28, 2010 4:21 PM

Jadehawk #54- I always thought it was an "apple of Granada", which bears the fruit in its coat of arms.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 4:27 PM

SC - You have many admirable qualities, which is one of the reasons I jumped to your defense in the whole Greg Laden affair. But you do have a tendency, on occasion, to take offense where I don't think there's a good reason to - and you're very aggressive about it.

When I made my comments about the region I grew up in (yep, that's right, I did too, not just you, SC), I was specifically referring to the place, and the families, in which I was reared, and where I went to school, etc. I'm allowed to make characterizations of my own family, friends, and hometown and regions, because I lived it. That's not stereotyping, that's personal experience. I was careful to qualify what I said to make sure people knew I was talking about my experience. What more could you want?

You're allowed to have a different view, and a different experience. But it's not legitimate to characterize my personal observations about a place and people where I grew up as an illegitimate stereotype. Are you telling me I don't know my own family? My own friends? My own hometown? Seriously - what is it that you want?

And yeah, I do find you self-righteous sometimes. I don't appreciate you policing things and finding offense in the most innocuous statements. As someone myself who has a passionate temperament, and is often too quick to make a snarky or judgmental comment, I have to do a fair amount of apologizing when I speak more quickly than I should. It bothers me that you don't seem to be capable of doing the same. You're never wrong, it's always someone else. It stings even more because I respect your politics, your passion, and your eloquence.

Sigh. If we want to continue to debate this, we probably shouldn't derail the thread with a personal disagreement. I'm sorry for my contribution to that. You can always email me at spokesgay at gmail, or not.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 4:30 PM

Anyone who equates boiled food with bland has never tasted boiled chittlins, aka chitterlings.

I've never been able to work up the nerve to try them. Everyone I've talked to who's been in a kitchen where they were cooking says the scent is. . . singular. Anyone here actually had them?

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 4:39 PM

That stereotype about bland, boiled American food is actually true in areas and among families (like mine) that descended from the Brits and the Irish.

Waspy Americans really have been terrified of the spice cabinet until very recently,

Josh, the statements above are NOT just about your friends and family, it's generalizing from your family and friends to the whole of the groups you mentioned. you can argue whether this is worth getting upset about, and whether SC is unfairly singling you out, but you can't argue you didn't stretch your personal knowledge into a generic and general area.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 4:41 PM

Josh, the statements above are NOT just about your friends and family, it's generalizing from your family and friends to the whole of the groups you mentioned. you can argue whether this is worth getting upset about, and whether SC is unfairly singling you out, but you can't argue you didn't stretch your personal knowledge into a generic and general area.

All right, true enough, I can see that. Do I think reading that much offense into it is an overreaction, and am I irritated about that, yep. But you make a good point.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 4:50 PM

Aside from fish and chips, you never had anything good to eat until curry takeaway became your national past-time.

Interestingly, chicken ṭikkā masala was apparently invented in Scotland because the Brits were used to having a sauce with meat. It's now, says the same article, the most commonly sold restaurant dish in the UK according to a survey.

Had it last year in Bristol. Was good...

that reminds me... what is it with Europeans and their habit of naming new foods "apple"?

Easy: in Europe north of the Alps, there simply aren't any native fruits other than apples, pears, and a few berries. Even cherries are an import (as the word attests: it's from Latin ceresia – must have entered Proto-West-Germanic or whatever when the Latin c was still pronounced as [k] in all environments).

Just like how there are no vegetables native to Europe north of the Alps other than <voice mode="despise">cabbage and turnips</voice>.

buttermilk biscuits with gravy....

Interesting, a food that sounds good even though I don't already know it <duck & cover> ;-)

For "pine cone," O.E. also used pinhnyte "pine nut."

That's got to be the plural. Hnutu, hnyte just like German Nuss, Nüsse, or so I've read.

but from a word for seeds/grains.

<lightbulb above head>

From "grain" itself (Latin granum), I suppose: pomum granatum, "grained fruit/apple"...?

The stone being named after the color of the fruit makes a lot of sense.

Online Entomology Dictionary

Entomology is insect biology. En-tomon = in-sectum = cut in. Compare ana-tom-ia, "cutting apart", and "tome" = "volume" = "section of a series of books".

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 4:53 PM

chicken ṭikkā masala

A tip for those, like me, who don't cook much: Trader Joe's frozen version is my current favorite food. Just behind: their cheese & green chile tamales.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 4:57 PM

Trader Joe's

(and the original tune)

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | February 28, 2010 5:03 PM

Hmm... here in Texas the more "traditional" food tends to be anything but bland. The other side of my family is Polish and central to eastern Europeans are fond of a lot of pungent things that may not be to everyone's liking. Mmmmmm.... cabbage and beets anyone? Although kluski lane and milk, or pumkin/squash is still a favorite comfort food of mine and it's pretty bland.

As for the bull's penis, while I think the "magic" is silly I don't see what's wrong with eating a part of the meat of a slaughtered animal that way.

People getting so touchy about it ought to consider what goes into the mechanically reclaimed meat that is in most hamburgers. Hint hint!

Waste not want not.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 5:07 PM

I always thought it was an "apple of Granada", which bears the fruit in its coat of arms.

So perhaps it's the other way around...?

I'm allowed to make characterizations of my own family, friends, and hometown and regions, because I lived it. That's not stereotyping, that's personal experience.

But you're generalizing that to all of New England.

You're never wrong, it's always someone else.

Well... I haven't been paying that much attention, but I can't actually remember an occasion when she was wrong :o)

only pop singer I can honestly say I really like: pink

:-o

OMFSM. She actually sings, instead of desperately trying – and failing – to scream louder than the drums. The rhythm doesn't give you heart-chamber fluttering...

I had no idea this kind of thing even still existed.

The (rather short) lyrics are rather disturbing, except for the funny part. Britney Spears X-D

Interesting how she pronounces the r in star, are, and doctor as such, but vocalizes it in more every single time.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 5:11 PM

I can't actually remember an occasion when she was wrong

*comment retracted just in time*

Posted by: SC OM | February 28, 2010 5:16 PM

SC, I wouldn't rather continue having a disagreement in the thread.

Fine with me. And while I mentioned it at the time, I'll say it again - I really appreciated your vocal support during the Laden thing.

***

Ken Cope posted this a while back:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jennifer_8_lee_looks_for_general_tso.html

***

I've been eating Indian food - especially the spinach/paneer - that's like preserved with the space-mission methods, in those silver pouches. I was eating the ones from Kitchens of India, but those are way expensive here so I switched to some other brands that are pretty good, too.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 28, 2010 5:19 PM

I grew up in the Midwest. My paternal great-grandparents came from England and Ireland and my mother was born and raised in England. I had spicy food, including genuine Indian curries and real Mexican (not Tex-Mex) food, frequently when I was a child.

Sorry about shattering any illusions.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 5:20 PM

Interesting how she pronounces the r in star, are, and doctor as such, but vocalizes it in more every single time.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 5:28 PM

Apologies if this has already been posted, but, WTF - the Utah Legislature has passed a shocking bill:

Under a bill that has passed the legislature and awaits signature by the governor, miscarriages that result from an "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" would be treated as illegal abortions, punishable by life in prison

Posted by: Lynna, OM | February 28, 2010 5:31 PM

CPAC, The Tea Party And The Remaking Of The Right -- This is a podcast (text also available) in which journalist David Weigel is interviewed about his attendance at CPAC and a host of other right-wing events. I say "right-wing", but Weigel makes it plain that what was once right-wing is now, for the most part, mainstream. The only John Birch Society message he could name that was not being bandied about at CPAC was a message dissing fluoride in public water systems.

The interview is interesting for the way it highlights the intention of politicians like Ron Paul, Dick Army, and Sarah Palin to take the USA back to the federal government of about 1912 (before Roosevelt, at least).

Glenn Beck was keynote speaker, Dick Army spent half his speech questioning Obama's citizenship -- you get the idea. Weigel makes it clear that right-wing talk shows and Fox News (as well as other right-wing organizations) have played a big part in turning the fringe right into an acceptable almost-middle.

Before this year's CPAC, the John Birch Society was marginalized. Now they're co-sponsors. Ron Paul was once denied the privilege of a debating spot on a Fox News-sponsored event. Now he's all over the news, and he's the straw-poll presidential candidate (not an official candidate, but the recipient of the most votes at CPAC).

Weigel tells how much the Teabaggers really believe all that crap they're spouting, including the conspiracy theories and the "Obama is ruining our nation" stuff.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 5:35 PM

"Oh but you've never had my mother's/my Greataunt Berthatrude's/the Catfish Shack restaurant in Bumfuk, Mississippi's catfish."

Greataunt Berthatrude - LOL! Right there with you on catfish; I find it tastes like mud, too. I've tried it in the cheapest greasy spoons, and in upscale restaurants. No matter, it still tastes nasty to me.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 5:41 PM

so, i looked up "paneer"; by the looks of it, it resembles polish biały ser. my mom used to make that when we were still in poland. only required leaving the milk bottles out for a couple days, then heating it, and then squeezing the results through a diapercheesecloth

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | February 28, 2010 5:44 PM

Catfish. Oh yeah I eat it but then I eat almost anything. It tastes like what it is, a bottom dwelling substrate sucker often from particularly nasty rivers. The goal with catfish, I always thought, was to fry them and eat them with spicy enough seasoning that you wouldn't know whether you were eating fried rubber anyway. The muddy taste you guys, Josh and 'Tis Himself, are talking about is called catfish flavor. That's the way the fish tastes. It never tastes like orange roughy. I think even with soaking the meat for a while the taste still stays there. It's either tolerable to you or not :P

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 5:48 PM

ooh! ceresia = czereśnia!

Except for the n, which I can't explain at all, that one looks like it must have been passed on through some sort of Germanic, but before... hang on a second... "probably before 500 CE". Such second- and tenth-hand loans are common phenomena worldwide.

Except... can't give the links to the Wikipedia articles because there are too many; don't get confused by the sour cherry if you decide to look them up yourself*... Czech třešeň and BCSM trešnja begin with t, which confuses the story beyond my ability to figure it out. As if that were not enough, it's čereša in Bulgarian, without the bizarre ń of the other forms that comes out of nowhere if we assume a Latin origin. Then there's Slovene češnja... Oh, and then there's this, which just doesn't make any sense I can see. I retreat to bed with a headache.

Greek kerasiá.

* Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte my ass. Those aren't cherries (Kirschen), they're sour cherries (Weichseln, called Sauerkirschen somewhere in Germany). Various relatives of the Polish wiśnia are used for that species** in various Slavic languages, except that, judging as always from Wikipedia, this is the cover term for both cherries and sour cherries in Polish.

** And even as a girl's name. I'm actually related to a Višnja who lives in Belgrade. Compare Japanese Sakura = AFAIK cherry blossom.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | February 28, 2010 5:51 PM

I also adore Amanda (fucking) Palmer, who's Who Killed Amanda Palmer album has the most brain-twisting homage to abortion ever.

I've probably mentioned it already, but I'm seeing her Thursday night. It should be awesome. I saw Dresden Dolls a few years back and really enjoyed that.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 28, 2010 5:56 PM

Today's bit of useless trivia.

During the American Civil War the Union usually named battles after nearby rivers and streams and the Confederates usually named battles after nearby towns. Thus the first big battle of the war was named First Bull Run by the North and First Manassas by the South (Second Bull Run/Manassas was fought about a year later). There were a few exceptions like Gettysburg. Both the North and South called one battle "Chickamauga" after the stream which runs through the battlefield. That's because the nearest town was Snodgrass, which doesn't have the right ring for a battle.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 6:03 PM

I've probably mentioned it already, but I'm seeing her Thursday night

AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

YOU SUCK, WOWBAGGER. Give her a kiss for me. Or don't, since that would probably get you arrested for assault. :)

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | February 28, 2010 6:04 PM

WOOOOO!

Canada wins gold in men's hockey after defeating the US in overtime!!!!!!!

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | February 28, 2010 6:09 PM

Jadehawk wrote:

oh yeah, have I mentioned yet that I hate you? stop seeing bands/singers I want to see, you bastard.

You mean you don't enjoy living vicariously through my smug announcements?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 6:16 PM

Pink is touring mainly in the UK this year. Walton, I'd suggest you go to one of her concerts. It would be quite an experience for you. :)

As for food, there are a lot of ideas out there on why food in the 50s and 60s middle-class US got so bizarre. Most of the hypotheses swirl around the move for women to go to work after they did it during WWII and then got banished back to the kitchen, and the rise of "technology will save everything" and "if it's tech it's good" wrt food, and things like that. Also, if you go back further, there were a lot of great recipes that got lost when there was a big shift from rural to urban and people sort of lost their heritage (including their moms teaching them how to cook), in addition to losing time to cook and not having good ingredients available.

And then there's the whole idea that bland = bad. On the frontier there weren't necessarily a lot of spices to work with (and the people moving in didn't know how to use the ones that were there), but people did the best they could and came up with foods that still tasted good, just didn't pack much punch. I think there's a conflation of "bland food" with "bad food" that's a little unfair. I have my great-grandmother's recipe for chicken and dumplings that has no seasoning other than salt and pepper (and parsley flakes if you're feeling all wild), and it is sublime. Oh, speaking of that, there's also the problem that following old recipes now might result in a worse-tasting product than it did historically. I pooh-poohed at the idea that factory farmed chickens have had most of the taste bred out of them in favor of large meat masses etc. until I actually started buying heritage breed chickens from a local organic farmer who keeps them out on the grass to eat most of the summer and OH MY GOD CHICKEN. Same with the eggs and bacon we buy from him. Different breeds and different food fed to them really do make a substantial taste difference - they're a lot more flavorful.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | February 28, 2010 6:17 PM

@113: What's with the requirement that 'Tis Himself use his real name? Or am I reading that incorrectly? Sounds like Laden is telling 'Tis that he can no longer post on Laden's blog unless he uses his real name. That strikes me as really odd.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 6:22 PM

Judging from Wikipedia, that must be true; it's cottage cheese, German Topfen/Quark, French fromage blanc ( = "white cheese" again).

Posted by: Kliwon | February 28, 2010 6:25 PM

#25

Think yourself lucky that they didn't throw up. We had frogs with ginger in Malaysia a few years ago. When one of the girls was told what she'd eaten, she made a hasty dash for the toilets with one hand over her mouth.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | February 28, 2010 6:29 PM

Tis Himself,

The only two Southern (US) foods I don't like are pecan pie (too sweet) and catfish.

You should try buttermilk pie, which is, IMHO, even sweeter than pecan pie.

The muddy taste of catfish is a result of insufficient soaking before preparation. Many people don't realize you have to soak it at least overnight if it's river fish. It's always disheartening to have nasty muddy river fish at a restaurant.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | February 28, 2010 6:33 PM

From Mrs. Owens' Cook Book and Useful Household Hints [1887]:

Confederate Army Soup, as made at General Pickett's Headquarters.

One ham bone, 1 beef bone, 1 pod red pepper, 1 pint black-eyed peas. Boil in a mess-kettle in 2 gallons salted water. Splendid soup for a wet day.

- contributed by Lieut. Col. S.G. Leitch

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 6:36 PM

Sounds like Laden is telling 'Tis that he can no longer post on Laden's blog unless he uses his real name.

No – he's telling him to suck up or he, Laden, will divulge 'Tis' real name next time. It's a threat. A particularly evil one.

completely different texture and taste.

I only care about the smell and the acid :-þ

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 6:38 PM

The hambone they were boiling was Gen. Pickett....pffft!

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | February 28, 2010 6:38 PM

I have my great-grandmother's recipe for chicken and dumplings that has no seasoning other than salt and pepper

Salt is the seasoning I use most often, but, as I mentioned above, I love Southern food and it's full of salt.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | February 28, 2010 6:39 PM

What Carlie #124 said: My mother rarely uses spices when she cooks, but across the board her food is delicious. Using good ingredients in the proper combinations and cooking things at the right temperature for the right amount of time makes a big difference.

We ate a lot of boiled cabbage growing up, and I have not a single complaint. A quick plunge in boiling water renders the leaves cooked yet crispy...a little salt, pepper and butter...delish*. Also, the woman in my experience has never made a turkey that wasn't damned near perfect. Again, not a lot of spices involved, but delish.

My wife (who is from a Sicilian family) does all of the above and is a genius with seasoning. In our first year of cohabitation, I put on 50 lbs (23 kg) from all the good eating.

*She makes wonderful turnips also, with nothing more complicated than water, butter, salt, and pepper.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 6:43 PM

I take umbrage at your labeling of Pink as "ghastly pop". she's Teh Awsum

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 6:45 PM

You need help Walton.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | February 28, 2010 6:46 PM

You need help Walton.

With what?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 6:55 PM

Walton, Pink is smart pop. She also has ballads - here's one about George W. Bush. The reason I specifically suggested her to you is that she's a pretty fierce gung-ho feminist (not perfect, but fairly consistent) and the vibe at her concerts would probably be a kind of crowd you're not used to dealing with but might enjoy. And you might meet some incredibly awesome women there. ;)

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 6:58 PM

you're every hobby-cook's nightmare.

Interestingly, one of my favorite dishes actually contains the stuff. With lots of herbs, surrounded by a variably noodle-like dough, and copious quantities of molten butter. It's so much work my mother usually makes it only once a year, for my birthday.

Another thing people keep forcing on me. Beer. Keep it to yourselves, it's all nasty to me.

We had that topic a few subthreads ago :-)

With what?

If you're not eating, why are you still up? :^)

As I said above, judging from the 3 videos linked to above, Pink is quite a lot less ghastly than most to listen to. Still not my taste, though.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 28, 2010 7:01 PM

Patricia, stop the peer pressure. Not everyone wants to have an external influence take over control of their heartbeat. I, for one, prefer music where the rhythm is a side-effect of the tune rather than the other way around.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | February 28, 2010 7:04 PM

With being a young man instead of an old soaked mattress.

I don't want to embarrass anyone but I've always found Walton's slight stodginess endearing. It encourages me to think that there are guys out there in my approximate age bracket that can combine progressive thought, lack of religion, and still have a that pleasant reserve about them.

Well anyway.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | February 28, 2010 7:06 PM

Happy St David's day to my old Welsh chums!

MMMM! Lava Bread!

Posted by: Bastion Of Sass | February 28, 2010 7:09 PM

CPAC, The Tea Party And The Remaking Of The Right -- This is a podcast (text also available) in which journalist David Weigel is interviewed about his attendance at CPAC and a host of other right-wing events. I say "right-wing", but Weigel makes it plain that what was once right-wing is now, for the most part, mainstream. The only John Birch Society message he could name that was not being bandied about at CPAC was a message dissing fluoride in public water systems.

Also read "The Axis of the Obsessed and Deranged" by Frank Rich from The NY Times. Scary stuff.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 7:12 PM

His stodginess might be amusing if one imagined it being spoken by an upside down turtle.

Posted by: windy | February 28, 2010 7:14 PM

Walton, maybe you'd prefer this cover of Pink?

Posted by: llewelly | February 28, 2010 7:14 PM

You should try buttermilk pie, which is, IMHO, even sweeter than pecan pie.

Posted by: llewelly | February 28, 2010 7:18 PM

Waiting for Godot

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 7:24 PM

29022

30K probably Thursday.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 28, 2010 7:25 PM

Two cups of sugar in a pie? I can feel my teeth decaying just reading that.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 7:27 PM

For example, a Google image search for chicken and dumplings comes up with this as one of the first hits, which is basically what mine looks like.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | February 28, 2010 7:28 PM

I only like some punk, most of it old, and it's really hard to pin down what I like and don't like. I think it comes down to my perception of *sincerity* of it. Although I almost never will commit to really liking or disliking a genre because there will often be one or two things I like in something I don't generally like, or one or two things I just absolutely HATE in something I like. For instance if I said, I like jazz... oh but not that jazz, or any of that, or that... no that neither. Well what I mean is I like *this* album. And so it goes with everything for me. I can safely say the genre with the least stuff I like in it is probably alt-rock or new country, but pop is right up there with them in the generally disliked. Oddly enough I can be very fond of some hip-hop. Go figure. Fulla contradictions that one.

I wouldn't try and recommend music to Walton though anyway. Besides music is one of those things were the things you find on your own are more meaningful than the things other people foist on you. Or at least that's how it's seemed to me.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 7:30 PM

I wouldn't try and recommend music to Walton though anyway. Besides music is one of those things were the things you find on your own are more meaningful than the things other people foist on you. Or at least that's how it's seemed to me.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | February 28, 2010 7:34 PM

I found all the music I know because other people made me listen to it.

Now that's interesting to me! I find I have to wait a while and give another listen generally because when some one tells me I just have to hear this my initial reaction is usually something along the lines of "No I don't." This can sometimes result in me coming around to something that I took six months to hear because I got tired of being encouraged to do so :P

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 7:38 PM

I don't think it'll be that cold.

Ha. Not in Groton, certainly, but it's probably not a bad approximation for the Universe as a whole.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 7:38 PM

well, I just don't ever bother to "find" music either i overhear it somewhere, or I hear it during a show, or someone tells me about it & makes me listen to it. and then I pick whatever I like. and in any case, when you live with someone who owns almost 100Gb of music and something is always playing, there's no more need to go looking for more.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | February 28, 2010 7:41 PM

Right, I have my Godot tickets.

Llewelly wrote:

If you've followed human spaceflight significantly anytime since at least 1985, you've seen Waiting for Godot enough times to fill a lifetime.

Three important words: Sir Ian McKellen. If he were doing spaceflight then I'd probably be interested in seeing that. Yes, Godot is unburdened by plot, but that gentleman's on-stage presence alone will be worth the 100 clams I just forked out.

Re: music recommendations - the majority of what I like is stuff I've found by stumbling across it, but there are exceptions; for example, I learned about Grandaddy and Elbow because they were suggested to me.

Posted by: boygenius | February 28, 2010 7:43 PM

Congratulations to all the Canadian Pharyngulites on the Olympic hockey gold. I'm disappointed for the U.S. team but, as a hockey fan, that was one HELL of a game.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 7:49 PM

I was thinking more of Walton having the experience of being in a party crowd of fierce rioty womyn and their associates. :D

Posted by: boygenius | February 28, 2010 7:53 PM

when you live with someone who owns almost 100Gb of music and something is always playing, there's no more need to go looking for more.

Almost 100Gb? Oh my FSM, you poor impoverished thing. I must have close to 1T on drives in addition to at least 2,000 CD's.

And I still get bored listening to what I have and seek out new stuff.

Posted by: Urmensch | February 28, 2010 7:54 PM

Jadehawk @87
My Polish partner has told me that the reason many of the names for fruits and vegetables in Poland are more Italian than Slavic goes back to when the Italian princess Bona Sforza became queen of Poland.
She influenced Polish cuisine because of her love of fruit and vegetables and to this day Polish food has more of a mediterranean style than other Slavic countries.
He has remarked how Czech people have such an aversion to vegetables they even throw away what little salad comes with a hamburger, but that might have been an exaggeration.

As for paneer, while it's likened to cottage cheese it is slightly different being pressed curds made from scalded milk split with acid, usually lemon juice. It seems closer to twaróg than biały ser, though I've only made paneer and cooked with the Polish cheeses.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 28, 2010 8:01 PM

The poor reputation of British cuisine was certainly justified in the 1950s and 60s (aside from fish-and-chips, kippers, and cakes, puddings, scones etc.), when I was growing up, but not since. It's primarily the influx of European, Caribbean, Asian and African immigrants - and not just for takeaways, Josh, these immigrants and their kids and grandkids are British and so are their cuisine, music, languages etc. - and the first two at least have mixed and combined with that of the pre-existing population. However, the general availability of a far wider range of fruit, vegetables and spices would have happened even without that. As a child I never saw chili, capiscum, eggplant, broccoli, red onions, garlic, root ginger, fresh coriander... Many of these can be grown outdoors here, the rest in greenhouses which have along tradition of use, they just never were.

Posted by: llewelly | February 28, 2010 8:08 PM

Pygmy Loris | February 28, 2010 7:22 PM:

how much sugar does your family recipe call for? Mine uses 2 cups.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 28, 2010 8:13 PM

boiled=bland

Kippers?? - Steve V

Take that man out and shoot him!
Boiling the noble kipper is unforgiveable: a kipper (which should not be filleted) should be fried on both sides in a little butter, then sprinkled with coarsely-ground black pepper and eaten with wholemeal bread.

Posted by: Sanction, Inherent Antonym | February 28, 2010 8:16 PM

Knockgoats @197:

but do you have specialist cheese shops?

Surdyk's in Minneapolis, for one.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | February 28, 2010 8:23 PM

Bill Dauphin:

(it was years before I realized any other part of a turnip was even edible!).

You are mistaken. No part of the turnip is edible, though I understand you can make turnip o'lanterns out of them. Apart from that, they are a dead loss with no insurance.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 8:26 PM

Carlie @190 - That is exactly what I think Walton needs too. *evil smirk*

Posted by: Diane G. | February 28, 2010 8:46 PM

#132Posted by: Pygmy Loris | February 28, 2010 6:29 PM

The muddy taste of catfish is a result of insufficient soaking before preparation. Many people don't realize you have to soak it at least overnight if it's river fish. It's always disheartening to have nasty muddy river fish at a restaurant.

Thank you, Berthatrude.

;)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 9:03 PM

There is no accounting for taste in food or music. Let me know if you want to hear my opinions on either.

Well, OK, here's a couple, gratis: AC/DC sucks! Mushrooms SUCK!

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 9:10 PM

Abruptly shifting gears - know what I hate about Bejewelled? It won't let you save your damned progress. If you get to level 15 and you can't make any more moves on the board, you have to start at level one again. Arrgh. Yes, this seems overpoweringly important to me during my period of reduced cognitive capacity due to excess phlegm production.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 9:16 PM

Ah! Common ground.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | February 28, 2010 9:23 PM

Yet, Def Leppard sucks.

Heck yes. I used to love them until I discovered good music. Listening to Hysteria now makes me want to vomit because of how slickly overproduced and soulless it is.

Posted by: windy | February 28, 2010 9:26 PM

AC/DC sucks

Heh, I just saw these gals this weekend.

Deep rifts!

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 9:37 PM

Mammals all suck.
Except monotremes, which lick.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 9:41 PM

Well, OK, mushrooms don't all suck.

Just the ones passed off as 'food'.

Also, no thread mentioning AC/DC cover bands would be complete without Hayseed Dixie.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 9:49 PM

I bet Sven doesn't care for Toto either.

Don't make me call down the rains down in Africa on your ass, 'Tis.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | February 28, 2010 9:51 PM

I tried, Patricia, but no one seems to be taking the bait.

So was the weekend good? I won't ask for details, just a general thumbs-up or down. :)

Posted by: Ichthyic | February 28, 2010 9:52 PM

I HAZ NEW FISH STORYZ:

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2010/02/the_hidden_face_codes_of_fish.php

color and communication in fishes has always been a subject close to my heart, if not my pocketbook.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 9:58 PM

I'm unfamiliar with Mushrooms. Are they a punk band?

Not plural, and...no:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mym2qi0m5dg&feature;=related

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 10:01 PM

Carlie - I had a lovely time at the show, and allowed myself to be kissed twice in a rather genteel way accordingly proper to the status of a lady recently widowed.

Thank you for asking.

And no, you horny toads may NOT ask if it involved licking or sucking.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 10:08 PM

I had a lovely time at the show, and allowed myself to be kissed twice in a rather genteel way accordingly proper to the status of a lady recently widowed.

Oh, so glad to hear it, Patricia! And I loved your description.

Perhaps you'd like to borrow some of my fantasy wardrobe for your next date. I had this bizarre -but very stylish - dream last night that I was trapped at a dreadful boring conference. I escaped by donning Victorian widows' weeds (complete with face-obscuring veil) and running away across a meadow, assuming everyone would think I was just Some Troubled But Picturesque Victorian Lady.

Freudians, have at it. I plead non compos mentis, on account of my cold/fever. I want that dress, though.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 10:22 PM

Yes, thanks, it was a rather Victorian "date".

Josh, for several years I played the role of a Confederate widow at some re-enactments. That's how I developed my fondness for corsetry. You could SO get away with that role, if properly costumed.

OK Sven you get a pass, I'll save the morels for myself...but damned if Spam rolled in cornmeal and fried in bear fat doesn't sound intriguing!

Posted by: Katrina, radicales féministes athées | February 28, 2010 10:34 PM

I was trying to remember what we usually ate, growing up in the Pacific Northwest.

I remember pot roast, and meatloaf. Mom's potato soup (she is from Idaho, so. . .) Dad made a spicy, flavorful chili that he cooked all afternoon in a huge iron skillet. There were casseroles with lots of spices. Dad's marinara sauce would spend the day in the big skillet, too. Vegetables were steamed, until the invention of the microwave, then they were cooked in there until just barely done. And there was ALWAYS tossed green salad.

We had a pretty extensive spice cupboard, but I think I cook with a wider variety of spices than my dad did.

Oh, and catfish. I am deathly allergic to them.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 10:40 PM

old-school Gong with excellent Betty Boop vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FisaVM93bdg&feature;=PlayList&p;=C08E8194A2DE0120&index;=8

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 10:50 PM

Patricia:

Josh, for several years I played the role of a Confederate widow at some re-enactments. That's how I developed my fondness for corsetry. You could SO get away with that role, if properly costumed.

What fun! Although you may get sassed a bit around these parts:)

Back in college, when my fellow SpokesGays and I used to put on cabaret shows, we discovered the wonders of corsets (oddly enough, the talented seamstress who made them for us was one of the most out, politically active lesbians in our class.) If you're really gonna look the part (especially if you have Man(TM) proportions), you gotta cinch that shit in. Whoa, did I learn a new respect for the torture women have taken upon themselves throughout the ages.

We did look fine though - lol!

One of these days I'm going to go all out, just one last time, for a Halloween party. I want to walk into the room looking like I'm wearing a damned wedding cake, 18th-century French Court-style.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 28, 2010 10:55 PM

I must have close to 1T on drives in addition to at least 2,000 CD's. And I still get bored listening to what I have and seek out new stuff.

Or maybe Alanis Morissette - My Humps?

I don't dig jazz for the same reason I suspect that I don't care for Ulysses. I don't get it. I don't have the ear/neurons to understand what it is.

I had a lovely time at the show, and allowed myself to be kissed twice in a rather genteel way accordingly proper to the status of a lady recently widowed.
Thank you for asking.
And no, you horny toads may NOT ask if it involved licking or sucking.

Josh, for several years I played the role of a Confederate widow at some re-enactments. That's how I developed my fondness for corsetry. You could SO get away with that role, if properly costumed.

and now for some music I discovered thanks to my favorite Seattle radio station (107.7 The End): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKWHr3mznME

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 28, 2010 10:56 PM

I mention it in case you are too young to know...

But you flatter me.
I was too young to go to Vietnam, 'tis true, but I watched it on TV every night.
And I remember vividly the '72 Olympics in Munich when Black September killed all those Israelis. Fucking fuckheaded fucks.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | February 28, 2010 10:56 PM

I was too harsh, and too hasty.

You can always feed the turnips to hogs, leading, eventually, to bacon.

(I can't listen to that Toto song without laughing...."Frightened of this Thing that I've become". I can't see the Serengeti for all the tentacles.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 11:06 PM

Antiochus:

Probably a really dumb question...couldn't the added shoulder width of a man more than offset the thicker middle? In which case you wouldn't need a corset as much as a prosthetic ass...to get that hourglass shape.

Not a dumb question. But no, the shoulder width isn't enough. If you're trying to do a convincing impression (and I do mean impression; drag is about performing a certain constructed notion of womanhood, not women themselves), you have to do more. Cinching in the waist to get the proportions of waist-to-hips is key to the illusion. Even good drag queens who don't corset end up ruining the illusion, because men's waists and hips are flat and in line with each other - it gives the whole thing away.

I say all this as someone who hasn't done drag for 15 years, since I was a kid from a small town bursting at the seams (!) to go wild in my newly liberal college environment. I'm a fairly staid, ordinary looking guy with a white collar job these days:)

Posted by: Patricia, OM | February 28, 2010 11:10 PM

Sven - Those are exactly the fucks I ment.

Katrina - My outlaws live in Tillamook, so I know just the pasture mushrooms you mean. So far as the Huckleberries go, in the summer we used to ride our Harleys to Trout Lake, WA - there is an ice cave there that will sooth the over heated bosom in 100 degree plus weather - and the local burger stand serves huckleberry milk shakes that are to die for! Yumm!

Josh - You naughty dumpling, I only lace that above the navel.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 11:22 PM

Josh - You naughty dumpling, I only lace that above the navel.

Whatever:) Go here, and scroll forward to 5:20.

"Our new one-piece lace foundation garment, zips up the back, no bones!"

Disclaimer: It's from the 1939 picture, The Women. It's a cesspool of sexism and dreadful caricatures of society women. It's dated, and in poor taste. And it has the most delightfully catty insults in cinema history.

Oh, and it has Crawford. And her shoulders.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | February 28, 2010 11:27 PM

Josh - You aren't figuring in the illusion created by veils and hoops.

Oh, but I am. The veil is absolutely necessary to give the skin the. . impression of poreless beauty, beyond what mere Mac Cosmetics can do (and trust me, they can do a lot. Even for gentlemen who have to appear on TV, but not look made up). And the hoops definitely help to balance out the whole I Have a Man's Blocky Body thing.

But ain't nothin' does it like a waist-cinching corset, Patricia, and you know it:)

Posted by: consciousness razor | February 28, 2010 11:52 PM

Antiochus Epiphanes, #209:

I don't dig jazz for the same reason I suspect that I don't care for Ulysses. I don't get it. I don't have the ear/neurons to understand what it is.

And I can listen to blues and zydeco for ~15 minutes before I want to hear something else.

Being a musician, it's hard to simply stop here. Now for a few more music musings...

Music, to create harmony, must investigate discord. ~Plutarch

"If ya don't got it in ya, ya can't blow it out. ~Louis Armstrong

"Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." ~Charlie Parker

I also want to make it clear that instead of jazz or hip-hop, I could just as easily be talking about the Beatles, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. Many are deliberately trying to not let you settle into a comfortable illusion that all is well with the world. It was not alright in their experience, and they attempted to represent that with sound. I'm not claiming that is the raison d'être of dissonance or anything silly like that, just trying to describe how it is typically employed by a wide variety of musicians across history.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 1, 2010 12:06 AM

more from The Fratellis, just because: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b9BdFmM8S8&NR;=1

Posted by: consciousness razor | March 1, 2010 12:10 AM

Jadehawk, #244:

Music is not information, it's a mood altering substance. I don't need a million different and new ones, I just need the right one at the right time.

Music is much more than something that alters one's mood. Let me ask an impossible rhetorical question: how would you describe paintings or architecture or literature, if you had to use the same "mood-altering substance" language?

That last part about your needs makes some sense to me, but there is already far too much out there to know what is "the right one". I, for one, do not intend to stop looking for new music, or to stop creating it myself.

Posted by: Patricia, OM | March 1, 2010 12:11 AM

Goodnight sweethearts, this cunning conversation of corsetry has this old vixen verily vaporous.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawncr0FDc8gdl7yJBz0SJ15D0etcTIOtL0s | March 1, 2010 12:53 AM

Noodles vs. dumplings: Same difference, as my sainted mother used to say, with pot pie vs. pot pie. Where I come from, pot pie is a sort of chicken stew with homemade and used-immediately noodledumplings, maybe 1/8 in. thick, if that, and 2 - 3 in. square. You use vinegar as a condiment at the table. That's Pennsylvania Dutch, and if you want a fine North American cuisine there you have it.

I make Mom's coleslaw sometimes, by ear, so to speak. Half a head of cabbage wants three eggs and a third of a stick of butter, plus vinegar, sugar, and salt. I suppose it's a sort of hollandaise; you cook it. The sauce, not the cabbage.

I'll be struck down dead for saying this, but Joe makes better potpie than my mother did. He uses a Reading recipe, with saffron.

Shoo fly pie. Schnitz un knepp. Pot cheese, cup cheese, boova schenkel. It's supposed to rain this week, so the weather's right for this stuff. Now I'm hungry.

How to tell if a cookbook actually got used? If the pages are clean: No.

Posted by: consciousness razor | March 1, 2010 1:22 AM

I can appreciate harmonic adventurousness, but, to me, there's a limit beyond which I have to suspect the human mind's organization of sounds just can't be tortured any further. Your thoughts?

However, I still have to try to balance that with what I know about our society and our history. What is considered "avant-garde" for most people today could easily have been written over a hundred years ago. To be just a bit condescending about it, the plebs simply haven't caught up with the times. Maybe pop music will catch up one of these days. The fact is there are only so many things you can do with triadic harmonies, circle progressions, waltzes and marches.

It's been a long time since composers began exploring what else was possible. This is fair game as far as I'm concerned, but without some arbitrarily-imposed limits or conventions (such as triadic harmony or the twelve-tone method) there simply are no rules to follow, which has both good and bad consequences. It's not necessary to disregard all the great things about tonal music, but it's also not necessary to limit oneself to that. For example: Debussy didn't write tonal music. If you can find someone who thinks his music is ugly, I can find someone who is tone-deaf.

I'll try to briefly explain some basic things about harmony which sadly many don't understand... Because of their simpler proportions, some intervals are in some way easier for the human brain to process. They provide us a feeling of order or well-being, because of the mathematical relationships between the frequencies. Rather than complicate things with equal temperament, just consider them as pythagorean ratios: octaves are 2:1, while fifths and fourths are 3:2 and 4:3, respectively. Easy. Things get more interesting once you introduce major and minor thirds, sixths, seconds, sevenths, and the tritone.

I hate how po-mo it sounds, but dissonance is relative, once you put it in context, add a note here or there. For example, a minor second (or major seventh), which most feel is very dissonant, is a ratio of 256:243. However, in the context of a major seventh chord like C-E-G-B, it sounds quite pleasant or relaxed -- the C-G is a fifth and so is E-B. Fifths are easy, so we can deal with the slight pinch between the C and B.

The tritone's ratio is 729:512, and is also considered dissonant, but as part of a V7-I cadence it's probably the most commonly heard harmony and the most convincing resolution one can write. As we all know, it's a nice feeling when tension is released (is anyone else thinking of sex right now?). Hang on too long, and we get bored or annoyed.

I think there are a lot of things just about everybody understands about music at a basic level, but applying that to a new creation is much more difficult. Still, those are the kind of things which are helpful to consider no matter what kind of music you're writing. It requires a lot of trial and error, as well as borrowing/stealing things you know have worked in the past.

Posted by: consciousness razor | March 1, 2010 1:25 AM

Jadehawk:

exactly the same, since I don't process either at any level other than "how does it make me feel?" music has the added layer of lyrics, which I don't always care about either, though. (well, representative art also has stories, but sometimes I don't care about that, either)

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | March 1, 2010 1:29 AM

MrT - I'm way too tired to be coherent, and I'm going to bed. But this conversation about consonance and dissonance is fascinating - you can talk to me about Pythagorean intervals, and equal temperament, all night long, and I'd never get bored. Hope it comes up again as a topic of conversation! If not, please email me.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 1:32 AM

I have returned. Show was good, made better by a waaaay over-enthusiastic girl shrieking (it was pretty low key show) so that was fun.

Music is not information, it's a mood altering substance.

Ah, this I don't get. Music is not just information it's sort of my primary input for information. Other information is just parts of music, out of time, or in other formats. Everything comes down to music for me in my head, but then I'm a musician so that shouldn't be too surprising!

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 1, 2010 1:34 AM

But I still don't see the similarities.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 1, 2010 1:40 AM

To the original statement that noodles and dumplings are the same.

dumpling and noodle aren't the same, it's just that "dumpling" doesn't seem to mean anything and is applied to all sorts of things; including noodles.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 1:48 AM

So Dawkins has arrived in Oz for his book tour apparently.
And PZ is going to see Skippy next Thursday, which I just learned from the FB invite I received from the UMSS.I'm not going, I have to work until 6 that day.

Poor PZ, I better start stockpiling drugs for the man's sore back already...:-)

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | March 1, 2010 1:50 AM

Hey, since people are already pissed off at me for the stuff I'm seeing, it's probably a good time to let you know I'm online right now buying tickets for Sir Ian McKellan and Roger Rees in Waiting for Godot...

I had to miss a Peter Hall Ensemble performance of it, since I had to go home before they got that far in the repetoire.

No link (at 'work'), but Derek Lowe has nice recipe for pecan pie as well - go back to Thanksgiving for it.

Posted by: consciousness razor | March 1, 2010 3:11 AM

llewelly, I agree with you, but I hope you aren't misinterpreting me. Let me put it this way:

If music is only mood-altering, you should delete it, because it's fucking boring.

Is "mood-altering" a necessary condition for something to qualify as "music"? Maybe so. Is it sufficient? No. That isn't an adequate way of describing what it is or should be.

It's also just plain wrong to say "Music is not information". Why not? How could that possibly be true? It's not the same kind of information as numbers or language, but that is beside the point.

Posted by: Paul W., OM | March 1, 2010 3:29 AM

windy:

Boring is mood-altering.

You've been listening to Brian Eno again, haven't you?

"Repetition is a form of change."

Posted by: llewelly | March 1, 2010 3:36 AM

Mr T | March 1, 2010 3:11 AM:

If music is only mood-altering, you should delete it, because it's fucking boring.

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | March 1, 2010 3:59 AM

I plan on being pleasantly inebriated for the duration of that weekend

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | March 1, 2010 4:10 AM

Carlie @#150:

Walton, Pink is smart pop. She also has ballads - here's one about George W. Bush.

Wow. I just clicked on the link, and it was surprisingly not bad. I'm not sure I agree entirely with the political message, but it was a clever and meaningful song. So I will have to admit that my (prejudiced?) assumptions were not borne out.

(Although I can't help finding it jarring to hear a multi-millionaire musician, who is as personally wealthy as Bush himself, singing about the hardships faced by single mothers on minimum wage.)

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | March 1, 2010 4:15 AM

Knockgoats #200

‘Take that man out and shoot him!
Boiling the noble kipper is unforgiveable: a kipper (which should not be filleted) should be fried on both sides in a little butter, then sprinkled with coarsely-ground black pepper and eaten with wholemeal bread.’
And I deserve shooting.
In mitigation I have to share the house with Miss M, whose nose rivals a mass spec in sensitivity. Now I know that this only compounds the grossness but the only way I can have kippers is if they are the Boil in Bag variety.
*cringes, expecting blows*
In the summer, however, we can cook outside.
Sprats, grilled pilchards, fresh mackerel MMMMMM

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 1, 2010 4:34 AM

I'm not talking about whether we consider it an "information-source", but whether information is in fact present.

And it's completely missing the point I was making, which was to describe the only situation in which I could imagine amassing such a large collection of anything and still being bored with it, which is to consider it a single-use source of pleasure*. information (or knowledge, if you prefer; but that's less accurate) does that for me, whereas music does not. they are completely separate categories, and as such one can be reused and therefore I need less of it, and the other cannot, therefore I need constantly more of it.

ok, NOW I go to sleep :-p

------

*hmm....but then... why keep all of it? the reason I have no books is because there's no point in buying something I'll read only once... is it just a matter of virtually non-existent storage costs (in terms of actual money, and space)?

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 4:43 AM

Thanks for the offer though.

Uhm, if you knew what the offer was for you would reconsider lol......

I have btw an empty house over that weekend, if 30k out of the city, and a bit of space in my apartment over the road from the convention centre.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 4:56 AM

Yeah easily....It's been done before lol

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | March 1, 2010 5:11 AM

email me kelskye(at)gmail(dot)com if you can, and name your poison :P

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 5:29 AM

Kel, check mail !

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | March 1, 2010 6:09 AM

Checked, and replied.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 6:39 AM

I dont know what the third rail is, but DLC seems to have a habit of making bad analogies that are quite unfunny......

Posted by: John Morales | March 1, 2010 6:45 AM

Walton, you must be joking.

The thread is what the thread is, not what you would have it be.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 1, 2010 6:47 AM

Invoking its name brings it here! Stop, for the love of all that is tentacled, before you recite it three times!

I've anointed the Thread screen with calamari sauce; perhaps that will help.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 1, 2010 8:02 AM

No new comments in a whole hour? I think I'm getting the shakes.

Only one of each for an entire chicken??? And then it's even optional??

The celery is optional, because celery is an evil vegetable spawn of Satan. And the amounts are small probably because it was from a, shall we say, not hugely successful farming family. You use what you got. If the chicken is chickeny enough, it doesn't need much else.

I have made paneer - it was ridiculously easy. But then again, it was only once, so it may have been a fluke. I'm quite excited - some farms in my area have banded together for a new co-op, and one of them has non-homogenized milk (still pasteurized, of course). Although I can't stand the taste of whole milk, I'm interested in watching the cream rise and skimming it off for other fun uses.

Posted by: ButchKitties | March 1, 2010 8:40 AM

@Carlie, The video you posted contains the greatest high-five in the history of high-fives.

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold | March 1, 2010 8:51 AM

Dydd Gwyl Dewi!

Or for non-Welsh speakers (including me), Happy St David's Day.

I would also like to recommend a cheese-maker based only a mile or so from where I live. Caws Cenarth make wonderful cheese, and if you ever get the chance to try some, do! The Golden Cenarth is especially good.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | March 1, 2010 10:24 AM

Over at Tet Zoo reading about babirusas, and whether there are multiple species or not and what it even means to ask that question, and Naish dropped this little citation and then quickly backed way, way away:

Woodley, M. 2009. Is Homo sapiens polytypic? Human taxonomic diversity and its implications. Medical Hypotheses 74, 195-201.

Talk about yer proverbial can o' worms!
The abstract and a bit of intelligent-seeming commentary can be found here.

(Googling 'Woodley polytypic' also brings up some truly stomach-turning supremacist stuff, as might be expected.)

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 10:36 AM

I hear the chords in whichever register and configuration they were played, in some rhythm and at some volume, with the tone colors of that particular piano in that particular room. I also get information about the room I'm listening in (if different), the speakers or instruments directly transmitting the sound to me, and which direction it's coming from.

Oh this completely. Here's the thing. Let's pretend I'm listening to some kind of music. For the sake of argument let's make it rock, let's say it's the album Iron Curtain Innocence, or maybe that Grizzly Bear album. Whatever, it could be the Misfits it wouldn't really matter for my illustration. Ok, so maybe the first time I listen to the album it's in my house and I'm not writing or working on something. So I may not pay that much attention, but if something stands out I may go back and listen to that song, this time just actually listening the way you might read a passage in a book.

Now if I like it, I may move the album onto my ipod or phone and start listening to it in the car. I have to drive a lot because I live in Texas which means the car becomes a big music listening to room for me. Now as I continue to obsess over my new find I will start to listen to the structure of songs I particularly like. I will listen to the production. I will notice changes in the drums, snare heavy sections, basslines. Eventually I will understand the lyrics. I will notice harmonies in the guitar line, I will notice how the synth parts work, and probably get to where I can play them at home when I'm practicing if my mind wonders that way.

I do that a lot, sort of dallying around and then oops... haha... that's some one else's song!

What's always amazing to me is that with all the years of playing essentially similar music you can still *recognize* some bit of some one else's song when you hear it. Just that particular arrangement, inflection, etc.

After a while I will become some what absorbed in a little world created by that song. I'll notice how it sounds in my headphones at night, or how it has become my driving soundtrack. I'll notice how it sounds when I'm ignoring it, or maybe I'll use it to give myself a break at work (where I work gets NOISY some times because my coworkers are talkative and eat frequently in the office so tuning out is a must some times).

Now multiply that by lots of songs, and you can see how that if *how music works* is of some kind of interest to you as a special or privileged type of information then it can be the kind of thing you develop a consuming desire to expand your exposure to. Because, all of those little moments, I may revisit but the sense of discovering them is only new once. So it becomes an endless observation of how *they do it* or how it seems in this situation, etc.

That's not even touching the subject of live shows! Like some one said above, honestly I could be talking about classical with this just as well. The same process applies for me.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 1, 2010 10:52 AM

I am going the indirect route here, I do not want to listen to this and I do not want to inadvertently make anyone listen to it or provide site hits. But the alleged song is called OTP (One Term President) and it is by WOLVERINES!

Why do some deranged people think that Red Dawn is a documentary instead of a rather crappy action movie with a very dubious premise? Why, yes, I can see how an armed high school football team can defeat those damned socialists!

Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold | March 1, 2010 11:24 AM

I don't get Greg Laden. He says he doesn't read blogs, doesn't like blogs - why does he have one, then? I visit there every now and then, and for the most part his seems generally pretty content-free.

He used to have interesting things to say. In the last six months or so he started producing great long posts on his blog that seem to be written in way that is intended to hard to understand. I have read some and been none the wiser as to what he on about. Not quite in Karen Armstrong class of waffle, but getting there. If someone has something to say, but cannot be bothered to do so in a concise and understandable way I am no longer interested in trying to pick the gems out of the dross.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | March 1, 2010 11:42 AM

More mormon gossip -- this time our high-profile mormon is Kevin Rahm who plays a gay dude on the TV show "Desperate Housewives". Gossip from the morridor is that playing a gay character so charmingly falls into the "appearance of evil" category, that in some scenes his mormon garments can be discerned under his costume, that he dropped out of pre-law at Brigham Young University because he really is gay (or because he really is not gay, but really is talented), etc.
http://www.affirmation.org/news/2007_097.shtml
From Deseret News:

THERE WAS A MORMON reference in Sunday's episode of "Desperate Housewives." And it did involve polygamy.
     Gay couple Lee (Kevin Rahm) and Bob (Tuc Watkins) moved to Wisteria Lane, and Susan (Teri Hatcher) rushed over to welcome them to the neighborhood and ingratiate herself.
     She failed miserably at the ingratiation. Susan didn't get that Lee and Bob are partners, so Bob clarified. They're "life partners."
     "That's super! I've seen a lot of cable so I get it!" she exclaimed.
     "Thank you," Lee deadpans. "I hope we can live up to your stereotype."
     Lee wasn't enthusiastic about leaving the city for the suburbs. So Bob reminded him that he was "the one who said moving here would be better for Raphael."
     "So, there's three of you," Susan says uncomfortably. "Well, that must be ... cozy."
     Overcoming his momentary shock, Lee replies sarcastically, "Yes, we're gay Mormons."
     Raphael is their dog.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 1, 2010 12:04 PM

Baozi: Knödel.

Jiaozi: Tascherl. Uh… Täschchen? How do you say in Germany?

Knödel kann aus Baozi sehen, aber Baozi muss immer Brötchen sein. Ist Täschchen eine Handtasche? Ein Tascherl ist süß, aber Jiaozi ist salzig.

(I need an excuse to practice German)

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | March 1, 2010 12:17 PM

I sorta wish I understood music, but when you start discussing it, this is all I hear.

Happy Chicken, Chopin!

Posted by: Aquaria | March 1, 2010 12:44 PM

Jadehawk: I think you and others have misconstrued what I was trying to say about the acceptance of ethnic cuisines within the majority WASP culture of America, a culture which does exist. I'm not condoning it (and you're putting words in my mouth if you imply that I do); I'm merely pointing out the reality of WASP influence in America. Supporting ethnic diversity (as I do) does not change that.

What I was saying was in regard to the political/cultural implications of the current diversity in American food, which has given America a richer culture than it had when the WASPS had a stranglehold on the culture at large (not so long ago). Diversity has improved our cuisine, and is a decided improvement on the culture we had before.

Sad as their treatment by whites and attempts to obliterate their cultural contributions have been, the Native Americans aren't the only peoples of this country with a cultural heritage, and certainly not the only ones to be pissed on by the dominant WASP culture. It is to these people and their contributions to our continuing heritage that I was speaking of.

My point was that America has been a culinary backwater because the dominant WASP culture did everything it could to deny ethnic cultures, and that included the food of those cultures, and the reason for that has everything to do with the racist heritage that their denial of others has created in America.

Most ethnic cuisines are viciously castigated for many years before they're ever accepted; it's a reflection of the dominant culture's fears of being diminished.To give you an idea of what I mean: Do you think Chinese food was popular, right away in America? Or Mexican food?

If you think the food and ethnicity issues weren't jumbled up together, it wasn't so long ago that has dominant white culture routinely and openly called Mexican-Americans beaners and taco-benders as pejoratives ("beaner" is still in common use amongst racists today). Why use food to refer to Mexican Americans? Might it be because it is something basic and obvious that quickly distinguished them from the dominant culture, a sign of "other"-ness?

You cannot look at the history of food in America without looking at the racism prevalent in the country, and how the rise of acceptance for various minorities (or at least awareness of them) has coincided with the acceptance of their cuisines into the mainstream of American life. Even the Italians dealt with this when they first came to America in large numbers in the late 1800s.

If you look at it this way, then, yes, we have a much richer culture now than we've ever had, and definitely superior. I am saying that the WASP culture didn't offer much. It was not a statement about what they took and didn't give credit for.

Besides, you have the contributions of Native American food culture respected and acknowledged in modern America. Unless you think that Mexican food isn't derived from Native culture.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | March 1, 2010 1:03 PM

David M,

I thought eastern (including mountain) and western gorillas being separate species was now textbook wisdom? (Except that not many textbooks can't have been printed in those last few years.)

Basically, yes. There are holdouts, but most textbooks now list two species, and several sub-species, of gorilla. Gorilla gorilla is the western clade and Gorilla beringei is the eastern clade. Though it's not textbook, I know many people who classify mountain gorillas as their own species, too.

I think part of the push to put mountain gorillas in their own species is due to conservation efforts since they're critically endangered, and don't reproduce in captivity. However, they are behaviorally and physically distinct, so it does make sense.

Anyway, back to work.

Posted by: negentropyeater | March 1, 2010 1:20 PM

Has anybody read Jaron Lanier's new book:

You Are Not a Gadget : a manifesto
the longtime tech guru/visionary/dreadlocked genius (and progenitor of virtual reality) argues that unfettered--and anonymous--ability to comment results in cynical mob behavior, the shouting-down of reasoned argument, and the devaluation of individual accomplishment. Lanier traces the roots of today's Web 2.0 philosophies and architectures (e.g. he posits that Web anonymity is the result of '60s paranoia), persuasively documents their shortcomings, and provides alternate paths to "locked-in" paradigms. Though its strongly-stated opinions run against the bias of popular assumptions, You Are Not a Gadget is a manifesto, not a screed; Lanier seeks a useful, respectful dialogue about how we can shape technology to fit culture's needs, rather than the way technology currently shapes us.

There's also a video of him presenting the book at zocalo public square (where he talks quite a lot about evolutionary biology).

(He's a weirdoe and a nerd and a visionary, it's well worth listening to him)
He makes a lot of claims about how the internet is affecting human behaviour, and not only in a positive way. Some of his claims, I think, are well supported, others less.

It's true that in the past, we have mainly reacted to technologies, we weren't capable nor willing to see the long term benefits and costs a particular technologies over the long term, say 50 years. But are we now capable and willing to do this?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 1:33 PM

Wow. Greg Laden really hates us! Good thing I never kept up with his blog much I guess. I hate being hated, especially over something trivial like where I choose to leave internet comments :(

But whatever... onward and upward! I come here to hang out and talk to people who share a couple things in common, and to learn through observation and interaction. You know, I think a lot of people really do thing the world would be a better place if there were only a certain type of people in it.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 1:52 PM

I've long thought that the anonymity on the internet brings out the stupid.

It does but it also gives marginalized people like myself a chance at feeling human, which is something different. You see, in the sea of internet stupid, you can see your worst in contrast with others worst too.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | March 1, 2010 2:02 PM

Jesus and Mo show that no-win situation with critics of religion.

This has been posted before, but Greta names a few other Catch-22's atheists encounter.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 2:17 PM

Laden:

PZ: Sorry to be annoying. My intent was not to annoy you. The original meaningof the term "Blastula" was clear and explicit. It was meant to refer to the body of interent commenters who share certain characteristics such as: Atheism, an interest in promoting secular, rational, and skeptical issues and discussions, and on-line activism. I chose the term "Blastula" in honor of, and to honor, Pharyngula (and because I thought it was funny), but it was meant to refer to similar blog readers/commenters on my site, on Dawkins site, on IIBB, and so on.

The context in which that term was used also included a mild critique of us (us "blastulas") and a number of individuals took exception to that critique, apparently never having had their modus operendus questioned before, and went on the warpath. The conversation never progressed beyond a giant blame-game orgy that itself amply demonstrated that the critique I had proposed was not only pretty close to true, but that the situation was for some worse than I ever thought possible.

During that process, the meaning of "Blastula" became corrupted and misused, and it became part of the "Greg Laden Runs a Train Wreck Blog and is Ruinging the Internet for Everyone" trope.

Ironically, but perhaps expectedly, the commenters who never understood the meaning of "blastula" and when I re-explained it to them chose to call me a liar and a cheater and a mommy fucker are all your readers. (Not all of your readers, just a subset.)

So, PZ I would be annoyed as well if I were you, but you've contacted the wrong person about it.

[my bold]

The problem here is that there was never any substantive critique. There was a lot of insinuation (ludicrous in my case), but no substance ever offered no matter how many times it was requested. I asked for it at Mors Dei and got the same response: nothing. What is this language people should be careful about, and in what contexts? Nothing. What are some examples of reasonable allies being alienated due to our statements? None. What are the benefits of moderating our language (somehow) in the context of the real advantages of being able to speak freely in some spaces? Nada. Just 'I criticized people with nothing to back it up and they got angry, so I must be right'.

He appears just to want to slime people (though he claims to include himself, he doesn't give examples of his own mistakes, and hasn't chosen a term to "honor" his own damn blog). If he were serious about this he would come up with some substantive examples that reasonable people could discuss. Of course, after what he's done and given what a horrendous communicator he is, few are listening anyway, but I thought it needed to be pointed out.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 2:34 PM

The original meaningof the term "Blastula" was clear and explicit.

Quite:

Now, imagine a hypothetical blog that is very popular among atheists. Let's call it Blastula, because it is run by a developmental biologist at a small university campus in, say, Lake Wikiwookie Wisconsin. The conversations that make up the threads on Blastula are often about atheism, and tend to be down on religion. Over time, Blastual actually becomes one of the all too rare places on the internet where atheists can feel comfortable being atheists, criticizing religion and religiosity, and promoting ways of thinking that are explicit non-religious.

Now, if you asked Professor SP Simpson, the professor who runs Blastula, what he thought about killing religious people because of their religion, he'd tell you to buzz off. He does not condone violence of any kind. "Live and let live. Even though they are obviously wrong," is the kind of thing he might say. He, and as far as one can tell by reading the blog, his commenters condemn violence generally and have very negative things to say about genocide, holocaust, that sort of thing.

Nonetheless, the commenters on this hypothetical blog are in some ways like the members of the firing squad....

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | March 1, 2010 2:38 PM

Laden wouldn't know "clear and explicit" if it bit him on the ass.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 1, 2010 2:57 PM

1)If you music lovers would bother rereading my first comments about this music thing, you'd notice that I did say that the only way boygenius' huge collection could bore him would be if he perceived music the way I perceive knowledge (and you've all now supplied sufficient evidence for that hypothesis, I think); and I was saying that while I intellectuall understand that, I don't "feel" it, because to me music is virtually content-free. it is not a source of knowledge, it's an experience. for me. personally. not in some sort of general, universal way. so can we stop talking about it as if I claimed that "music is not information" was supposed to be some sort of general fact of life?

2)Aquaria, I don't give a flying fuck about the mainstream american food culture. I never ever talked about it. what I WAS talking about was the fact that many Americans are no longer cooking the recipes of their parents and grandparents (of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds!); it seems fewer and fewer people cook in general and prefer to go to restaurants, and when they do they have bookshelves full of "asian cooking" and "indian cooking"; but not much in the way of "stuff my great-grandparents cooked"; REGARDLESS of what ethnicity or culture those great-grandparents were from. Too many Americans are throwing away their local food-culture in favor of the big international food culture, because local food culture is, as Bill D said "old people food". and i find that to be a great loss. that's all.

3)I'm gonna go away now for a while, because I'm in an incredibly bad mood today, and Pharyngula isn't helping right now, and I don't feel like accidentally ripping someone's head of, which i might regret later.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 1, 2010 3:07 PM

Ein Tascherl ist süß

Nicht unbedingt. Käse-Topfen-Tascherl, Kräutertascherl (…auch mit Topfen…)…

Baozi muss immer Brötchen sein

Ah, also doch. Dann sind es wirklich keine Knödel!

(I need an excuse to practice German)

Knödel können wie Baozi aussehen/ausschauen.

Benson goes on to document instances of phone taps.

LDS? No Such Agency!

it's my strong impression that that is simply not true: There is a lot of covarying, clustered genetic variation. Even the shopworn blood-type example: what is it? No B allele in the Americas?

This covaries with what?

Anyway, less that a year ago Pharyngula provided me with a series of maps of allele distributions for blood groups and the like. I'll post a link soon.

Basically, yes.

Hahaaa! I make a guess about textbooks based on a popular article I once read, without actually knowing any textbooks, and I get it right! <mad cackling>

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 3:10 PM

If you music lovers would bother rereading my first comments about this music thing

I get it!

so can we stop talking about it as if I claimed that "music is not information" was supposed to be some sort of general fact of life?

I never took your comment that way. Pardon me for sharing a type of experience with you. You can assume if you want that any further discussion on music that I might post on this thread is not directed to you or even intended to include you. Better then?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 3:17 PM

The latest being trip-hop

I still like this stuff. It was what I listened to all the time in middle school/early HS! Massive Attack, Tricky, Portished, Goldfrapp, Bowery Electric, DJ Shadow. Now I get all nostalgia-y about it. That and Radiohead. That already is dating me, some day it will prove that I am old. Meh... that's cool. Old is ok. I like lots of old people :P

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | March 1, 2010 3:25 PM

some day it will prove that I am old

I watched The Beatles on Ed Sullivan.

old.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 1, 2010 3:30 PM

Americans are no longer cooking the recipes of their parents and grandparents

My Grandmother and mother were and are terrible cooks.

One of the reasons I'm a badmother fucker in the kitchen. Out of necessity.

Though I'd be interested in what the mountain folk of North Carolina were cooking in the 1700 and 1800s, just haven't really looked into it (hence your point above).

Posted by: Bobber | March 1, 2010 3:38 PM

Though I'd be interested in what the mountain folk of North Carolina were cooking in the 1700 and 1800s, just haven't really looked into it (hence your point above).

There are few things more rewarding that finding those old recipes and digging in on a Saturday night, music in the background and wine at your fingertips. But then, I am a major "foodie" as my previous comment demonstrates.

As a history guy, though, it really is true that the food that is your heritage gives you a connection to your past. It's one of the reasons why, whenever I travel, I make it a point to try something on a menu that I've never heard of, but that the locals tell me is part of their cuisine - if you want to get to know a people, one of the best ways is to know what they eat!

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 1, 2010 3:40 PM

Nicht unbedingt. Käse-Topfen-Tascherl, Kräutertascherl (…auch mit Topfen…)…

Ja, Ich sehe. Du bist fast richtig.

Knödel können wie Baozi aussehen/ausschauen.

Oh, Knödel ist Plural? Ich hatte vergessen, dass "aussehen" trennt.

Deutsch ist sehr schwer.

Nederlands is eenvoudig. ;-)

)I'm gonna go away now for a while, because I'm in an incredibly bad mood today, and Pharyngula isn't helping right now, and I don't feel like accidentally ripping someone's head of, which i might regret later

You need a hug.

In news: truthwinsout.org reports that Rev. Martin Ssempa, mastermind of the kill-the-gay bill in Uganda, is blogging about his homophobia. He says "sodomy is not a human right, it is a human vice" to which I respond "faith is both a human right and a malicious vice."

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 1, 2010 3:47 PM

Yeah.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 1, 2010 3:55 PM

I am trying to learn to cook as much of my mother's recipes as possible, so that the knowledge won't pass with her; both my siblings feel the same.

Bobber - DO IT. Good on you. I can barely make my grandfather's braciole and have no idea on the sauce because I kept thinking I'd learn the next time I was in town, and then it was too late. :(

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 4:03 PM

'some day it will prove that I am old' Saw the Beatles live Bristol Colston Hall 1963 oldAwesome

There. I fixed it.

Posted by: Aratina Cage | March 1, 2010 4:05 PM

That happened with Tori Amos. I was obsessed with her say around the time I entered middle school. By college I was kind of embarrassed by her.

To this day I only some times like to go back and listen to a song or two from her b-sides usually, and usually a cover. She's just doesn't reach me now.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | March 1, 2010 4:14 PM

mmm 'coons

Posted by: Dania | March 1, 2010 4:19 PM

Massive Attack, Tricky, Portished, Goldfrapp, Bowery Electric, DJ Shadow.

You do realize, don't you, that now you're just feeding my new obsession? ;)

Often I continue to like the things I once liked but every once in a while something I was into once seems less... interesting after a time.

I think that happens to everyone. There's a lot of stuff I was into that I just don't care about anymore. Things that once made feel so good and now just feel indifferent. There's even stuff I once loved that now I just can't stand. But then there are those songs I grew up listening to that still give me the same feeling when I listen to them today... And no matter how many times I listen to them, they never get old.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 4:23 PM

He alleged a problem (a problem with other people) but never showed that it existed.

And I'll also mention that since he admitted to only having read 5% of the immediate discussion (and none of the original) that led to his original insinuation and then the firing-squad post, and now has acknowledged that he doesn't really read blogs, it should be pretty obvious where he's pulling his observations and analyses from.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 1, 2010 4:28 PM

Chimpy - I left you a silly bacon recipe up thread.

sweet

Posted by: windy | March 1, 2010 4:39 PM

"Tribbles are fuckin' hot!"

@19:

Why is it that "potency" aids never come from really prolific animals like rats?

Or tribbles?

OTOH, rats and tribbles may rate less well in, ahem, endurance.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 1, 2010 5:01 PM

Ol'Greg, you want to talk embarrassing high school music? I have you beat, hands down. I used to listen to stuff like this. And this. And this.

I'm sometimes surprised I ended up as well-adjusted as I did, little thought that is.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 1, 2010 5:04 PM

Modern Human Variation.

I should probably shut up abnout this.

Why? :-)

Yes, of course selection and the founder effect exist and have left visible traces; I'm just saying the correlations are never very high and drop further the more genes are involved.

Oh, Knödel ist Plural?

Auch.

Deutsch ist sehr schwer.

Nederlands is eenvoudig. ;-)

B-)

You need a hug.

I do hope it's that simple.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | March 1, 2010 5:13 PM

Ol'Greg wrote:

I still like this stuff. It was what I listened to all the time in middle school/early HS! Massive Attack, Tricky, Portished, Goldfrapp, Bowery Electric, DJ Shadow. Now I get all nostalgia-y about it. That and Radiohead.

Dammit, I was going to stop with the smug announcements but I've just got to throw out just one more after seeing this list; Massive Attack will be in Adelaide the weekend after the GAC, and I've got tickets to them, too...

It's the last one, I swear!

Posted by: Aratina Cage | March 1, 2010 5:22 PM

Too... cutesy, out of touch,safe? It's hard to define.

I know when I was in HS I realized some of her references and sources and it started to seem like she just borrowed from relevant (and irrelevant) issues and threw in the right keywords, mixed with quirky cute overkill, and maybe a sort of mixed metaphor/personal symbol so that it was always just a little shy of active.

She was kind of a hero to me...

Even though her music still clicks with me, I think I can understand what you meant now and how you grew away from her music.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | March 1, 2010 5:33 PM

Janine wrote:

In Chicago, Illinois, there is a celebration of a mercenary who fought for the revolutionary side. And here is a song about the day that I am sure most of you will hate.

I - for one - don't hate it. I have Chicago and it's an amazing album (though some of the songs are far better than others); Sufjan Stephens is a freaking genius, despite being sadly woo-soaked.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 1, 2010 5:40 PM

Sidebar quote:

It wasn't a dark and stormy night. It should have been, but there's the weather for you. For every mad scientist who's had a convenient thunderstorm just on the night his Great Work is complete and lying on the slab, there have been dozens who've sat around aimlessly under the peaceful stars while Igor clocks up the overtime.

(Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | March 1, 2010 6:09 PM

WowbaggerOM @ 399:

I become an absolute blithering idiot in the presence of even semi-interesting people; to even try to talk to someone as mindbogglingly awesome as him

If you ever do meet him, just remember he was a scientologist. That ought to keep him in the "firmly human" camp in your head. ;)

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 6:14 PM

WowbaggerOM, do you always have that many amazing things going on!?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 6:21 PM

Hay guise?

Just out of curiosity, is there a link to an explanation of what all this argument with Laden comes from or is about? I'm totally lost and confused. Part of me figures I should just ignore it and ultimately that's likely what I'll do, but I'm also kind of curious what has even been going on.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 6:25 PM

Are there things that were said that should have been avoided in order to calm things down and arrive at a more positive result?

Well he sort of lost me early in the process, with the firing squad analogy.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | March 1, 2010 6:35 PM

Laden lost it when he gave SC the have you stopped beating your wife being antisemitic post.

Posted by: Paul W., OM | March 1, 2010 6:38 PM

Caine,

I don't know how closely you followed Greg's mega-fuck-up, but plenty of people took a great deal of time to repeatedly explain things in long, thought out, calm posts.

Not just that; the worst part was that when we asked direct, relevant, clarifying questions, they were ignored. Over and over again, different questions or the same ones, it just didn't matter. All we got was abuse.

Despite

Posted by: Paul W., OM | March 1, 2010 6:43 PM

oops... another one got away from me. Damn this tiny keyboard.

Lest I be accused of apologizing for a short post, though... there you go. That's it. (Ignore the "Despite.") Hope you like it.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | March 1, 2010 6:48 PM

Ol'Greg @ 413:

I wish he'd just say something like:

I wish he'd said nothing at all.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 6:52 PM

I think when a community of people decide to say what troubles them

No community of people did decide to do that. Laden did, making serious charges with nothing to back them up but lies and misrepresentations.

about a certain kind of language or behavior,

What language, specifically? What behavior, specifically? Where were we racist slobs?

it's already quite difficult to arrive at a constructive result when it's face to face.

It's always difficult to have a constructive result when you accuse people of things without offering any evidence.

On the internet it's even more difficult because of the anonymity and the physical distance, people tend to be more hurtful and crude than they would be face to face, there is no body language, signs, and it can degenerate rapidly into a pissing contest.

Whether or not this is true in general, it's completely irrelevant here.

I think (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt) he wanted to start a conversation with a critique of blastulas (a generic term for atheist/secularist/rationalist blogs, which he never explained properly)

He explained it in a way that made it clear which blog he was talking about.

but he failed for all the reasons you have pointed out.

That it was a malicious, baseless charge, yes. Not because it was poorly organized or expressed.

I detect it now, in the way people who read both blogs have been behaving since this thing with Greg started.

You detect what now? The behavior Laden was describing in his firing-squad post? Anger? What? He leveled a terrible and false accusation and then a baseless "critique" (which he is still talking about), his sidekick lied and misrepresented, and then he proceeded to do things to commenters that were completely unethical. The people affected were and are annoyed or angry about it. That doesn't signify anything about internet culture or any broader, generic issues. Nor does it demonstrate any validity to his initial insinuations, which were not generic. And I'll say another thing: the firing squad post, it appeared to me as I was reading it at the time, looked like a cynical fishing expedition. He was looking for someone, anyone (connected to these blogs or not), to say something bigoted or extreme so as to latch onto it as evidence, however tenuous, for his claim.

You have perfectly good reasons to feel hurt and angry about what he said. Greg should have apologized to you early on.

Yes, thank you.

Then it was more people who felt angry, and it's degenerated rapidly into cynical mobs fighting against each other in devaluating comments.

They're not mobs, and they're not cynical. Neither are most of the people who are upset at what happened at RDF. Sometimes people have legitimate reasons to be angry. Before chalking everything up to psychological motives or group dynamics or dismissing it as internet drama, I think we should look at what people are actually saying they're hurt or angry about and whether it has substance.

So, one may think that it's all Greg's fault, but could we have behaved in a better way ?

I don't regret how I behaved. What of your behavior do you regret? What specific behavior of someone else are you criticizing?

Are there things that were said that should have been avoided in order to calm things down and arrive at a more positive result?

A positive result for me is a public apology and a retraction. I don't want to calm things down. It's not my responsibility to make Laden grow up and show some character.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 1, 2010 7:00 PM

Except that the traits used to identify "races" were anything but fixed.

Yeah. Whose classification exactly? I've seen some from the early 20th century with up to 66 races.

Ooh look, mtDNA isn't affected by natural selection

ROTFL!

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | March 1, 2010 7:02 PM

WowbaggerOM, do you always have that many amazing things going on!?

It's just the time of year - festival time. The tail end of the summer rock festivals and the beginning of the autumn arts/comedy/cabaret season. Adelaide's a pretty big place (pop. 1,000,000 or so) with a reputation for being arts-friendly so we get most (sadly, not all) of the big name international acts who come here.

But even by the normal standards there is an unusual level of great entertainment going on now and in the near future; I'm kind of blown away by it, actually.

It's both a blessing and a curse: a blessing because I love bands and cabaret performers and world-renowned stage actors (who happen to have also played über-nerd idols like Gandalf and Magneto on screen); a curse because - with so much happening at once - it's exhausting both my energy levels and my bank balance.

On a related note I'm not going to tonight's big show, AC/DC. I'm now trying to work out if it's going to affect me getting to what I am seeing: Antigone followed by a stage adaptation of Frankenstein.

Posted by: llewelly | March 1, 2010 7:04 PM

1) Don't you have any good music*?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | March 1, 2010 7:09 PM

Ol'Greg @ 421:

Well anyway, thanks. I kind of get it. Like I said I've just never really kept up with his blog so all this was weird and confusing for me.

Yeah. I used to read his blog semi-regularly, but with the firing squad/open letter posts, he lost me completely. All he did was out himself as a beetle-headed witling who was desperate for attention.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 7:17 PM

Either way if he wants Pharyngula off scienceblogs or something I'm sure there are proper channels to vent his frustrations to,

Nah, he's an atheist and he and PZ are friends. He's just a dipshit.

Posted by: Paul W., OM | March 1, 2010 7:35 PM

Speaking of not wanting people off Pharyngula...

I do think that Greg has crossed a couple of lines that ought to be against the rules at Sb, and that that the lines should be clarified and enforced.

In particular, he's threatened to out pseudonymous posters he doesn't like, and in one case exposed a pseudonymous poster's real identity briefly.

IMHO, that is way, way uncool. It's his blog, and if he wants to censor or ban people, thats his prerogative. Outing pseudonymous posters is something else entirely.

Is there a Sb rule about that? If not, I think there should be. Either way, Laden should be warned not to go there.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 7:40 PM

That doesn't matter. I have not lobbied nor will I ever lobby to have anyone ejected from Sb.

Huh? Of course not. I think she was speaking about Laden wanting you off, which is a mistaken impression.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | March 1, 2010 7:53 PM

Paul W @ 428:

In particular, he's threatened to out pseudonymous posters he doesn't like, and in one case exposed a pseudonymous poster's real identity briefly.

Yes, he recently threatened 'Tis Himself with that one.

Posted by: SC OM | March 1, 2010 7:58 PM

I'm seeing too much of this mob thing, forget it. I have nothing else to say.

And thanks SC and others for your clear thinking comments on Greg's self-immolation.

Was this last part sarcastic? If not, I guess I don't mind being part of a mob as long as it's a virtual, clear-thinking mob.

;)

***

Speaking of the horde, Heathers, and such, it is officially Molly time....

Posted by: negentropyeater | March 1, 2010 8:11 PM

NB: I have nothing else to say ... about the Ladenwreck.

But I'm like the Walrus, I can talk of many things, of shoes and ships and sealing-wax of cabbages and kings.

And lemons.
Anybody has some ideas what to do with lemons? I just harvested my two lemon trees and have stacks of beautiful juicy non treated fruits.

I plan to prepare some Limoncello and make jars of citrons confits (no idea how translate this : Lemons preserved in salted water, to be used later in various recipies such as yummy Lamb Tadjine with Lemons)

What else ?

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 1, 2010 8:16 PM

Posted by: WowbaggerOM| March 1, 2010 5:33 PM

I - for one - don't hate it. I have Chicago and it's an amazing album (though some of the songs are far better than others); Sufjan Stephens is a freaking genius, despite being sadly woo-soaked.

If you actually hit the link I provided, you would have known it was not Sufjan Stephens. I will not be linking to anything by him. I will leave that to the younger and more hip indie kids.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | March 1, 2010 8:19 PM

How 'bout some Doobie Bros:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqZ95a249p0

Posted by: llewelly | March 1, 2010 8:25 PM

negentropyeater | March 1, 2010 8:11 PM:

Anybody has some ideas what to do with lemons? I just harvested my two lemon trees and have stacks of beautiful juicy non treated fruits.

Ingredients:

Instructions:

Separate eggs. Set whites aside (I meringue the whites later). Whip yolks until smooth. Add sugar slowly. In a separate bowl, shred (or cut) butter into flour. Pour in buttermilk, and whip until smooth. Stir in lemon peel and lemon juice. Stir in yolks. Pour into pie shell.

Preheat oven to 425. Cook at 350 for 20 - 25 minutes, or until just before browning (I know, hard to judge, but a little browning doesn't hurt) . Let cool at room temperature. The pie will set up as it cools.

Meringue the egg whites, and top pies with meringue after they have cooled. Optionally, put the meringued pies back in the oven at 425 for about 2 minutes to brown the meringue. Let pies cool before serving.

_{(I admit it doesn't use up very many lemons. Oh well. Guess you'll just have to make some lemon jalapeno jam.)}

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | March 1, 2010 8:30 PM

'Tis Himself, OM @ 437:

I ask you all to consider joining me in the nomination.

I already planned on nominating Paul W. He more than deserves it.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | March 1, 2010 8:33 PM

negentropyeater,

You could make lemon curd.

125 ml (1/2 cup) freshly-squeezed lemon juice
100 g (1/2 cup) sugar
2 large egg yolks
2 large eggs
pinch of salt
85 g (6 tbsp) unsalted butter, cubed
zest of 1 lemon

In a large bowl, beat the butter and sugar with an electric mixer for 2 min. Slowly add the eggs and yolks. Beat for 1 min. Mix in the salt and lemon juice. The mixture will look curdled, but it will smooth out as it cooks.

In a medium, heavy-based saucepan, cook the mixture over low heat until it looks smooth. (The curdled appearance disappears as the butter in the mixture melts.) Increase the heat to medium and cook, stirring constantly, until the mixture thickens, about 15 min. It should leave a path on the back of a spoon and will read 80°C (175°F) on a thermometer. Don't let the mixture boil.

Remove the curd from the heat; stir in the lemon zest. Transfer the curd to a bowl. Press plastic wrap on the surface of the lemon curd to keep a skin from forming and chill the curd in the refrigerator. The curd will thicken further as it cools. Covered tightly, it will keep in the refrigerator for a week and in the freezer for 2 months.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 1, 2010 8:37 PM

mostly, yes. something to get rid of that massive headache that's been plaguing me all day would help, too. and a magical dish-washing fairy.

Along with this helpful organic molecule.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 1, 2010 8:39 PM

Trouble-Hope Sandoval & The Warm Inventions

Posted by: Opus | March 1, 2010 8:45 PM

Rev, you said you'd

be interested in what the mountain folk of North Carolina were cooking in the 1700 and 1800s, just haven't really looked into it (hence your point above).

I can't help with what they were cooking, but I have some family documents from 100 years ago that shed some light on the ingredients. My grand-parents were sharecroppers in NW Georgia and they 'shopped' at a store owned by my great-grandfather. I've got the store account book, so for the month of May 1910 the total food purchases were:

100 pounds of flour
16 pounds of sugar
6 1/2 pounds fish
2 1/2 pounds of cheese
3 1/2 pounds of coffee
1 gal syrup
1 bushel meal
2 (?) salmon

Total cost $12.20, settled up at harvest time.

What they did with it is anyone's guess, but I'm thinking that biscuits and cornbread played a big role. Since they didn't buy meat or lard I'm also assuming that they butchered their own hogs in the fall.

The Foxfire books are one of the best sources I've run across for details on how people in the rural, southern Appalachians lived. You can see more here.

Posted by: negentropyeater | March 1, 2010 8:54 PM

'Tis,

how do you eat lemon curd ? like a jam ? Or is it more like a cream ?

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | March 1, 2010 9:25 PM

Anybody has some ideas what to do with lemons? I just harvested my two lemon trees and have stacks of beautiful juicy non treated fruits.

You could make...more liqueur, only with the pulp of the lemons. Unfortunately, I eye-ball the quantities, and therefore don't have a recipe as such, but I do know that the big jar I use (something like 5 1/2 qt.) takes 22-24 lemon innards, kinda chopped up. (Aside; when I first did this, on the fly, it never occurred to me that you could use the peel of the lemons, so I peeled them suckers. Lemons, unlike oranges and tangerines, resent being peeled. Bitterly. It took hours.) I then added some nebulous amount of vodka, about a cup of honey, and a cinnamon stick, and set the jar in the closet for 3 months. I suspect that it doesn't really need that long, but the reviews have been very favorable, so I figure it ain't broke.

And I also vote for Paul W. for Molly.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | March 1, 2010 9:30 PM

Take one bag of lemons and make whatever lemony shit everyone here thinks you should. Take the other bag out to a softball diamond and get your fruit game on with some friends. Hitting a lemon with a softball bat is a sublime pleasure that few have ever enjoyed.

Posted by: llewelly | March 1, 2010 9:56 PM

negentropyeater | March 1, 2010 8:48 PM:

Lemon jalapeno jam ? sounds nice, any recipie you can recommend ?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 1, 2010 10:18 PM

Maybe you could adapt a lemon-ginger marmalade recipe to use jalapenos instead of ginger?

Posted by: Rorschach | March 1, 2010 11:14 PM

SC @ 425,

Some of my arguments with truth machine (if people want to call those internet dramas I won't dispute it), for example, have been as much my creation as his (and that's saying something!).

Ah, them were the good times !!!

I'm doing a bit of campaigning on behalf of Paul W.

Doesn't look like he needs anyone campaigning for him...:-)

As to Music, I just had a look, and there is about 20 Gb or so, but in day-to-day life I only listen to maybe 5% of that ever, and mostly the same stuff, except for in the morning when hungover, then I usually pick a trance or groove internet radio station, but I wont know or care about band's names.I know who Lady Gaga is, but thats about it, in terms of contemporary music.

Posted by: kantalope | March 1, 2010 11:33 PM

Have to offtopic vent: for economic reasons I'm taking some college classes. Taking an intro class on childhood education. Worst textbook Evah.

Anyway this is the second written assignment: after doing the readings "the student will determine which theory-based body of knowledge most closely coincides with his or her personal beliefs as it pertains to how children, grow, and develop."

Beliefs? What? I try not to 'believe' anything. "Based on some stuff I just made up, Freud is right...blah blah blah.??? Is this typical for Education...um education? I am just flabbergasted.

/end soapbox

For your patience in reading: the best chocolate pie that is good for you.

Thanks to Alton Brown over a food network:
* 2 cups chocolate chips,
* 1/3 cup coffee liqueur
* 1 block silken tofu
* 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
* 1 tablespoon honey
* 1 prepared chocolate wafer crust

Directions

Place a small metal bowl over a saucepan with simmering water. Melt the chocolate and coffee liqueur in the bowl. Stir in vanilla.

Combine the tofu, chocolate mixture, and honey in the blender jar. Liquefy until smooth.

Pour the filling into the crust and refrigerate for 2 hours, or until the filling is set.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawncr0FDc8gdl7yJBz0SJ15D0etcTIOtL0s | March 1, 2010 11:47 PM

Oy. #467 was me.

One of these days I'll hunt down and slay a few of my Usenet ghosts.

In other news: Diamond Lil, the San Francisco webcam's peregrine, has laid two eggs.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 2, 2010 12:30 AM

Centuries from now will some poor historian be reading through this endless thread to examine the early Pharyngula movement?

I don't think it's so much about internet history.
But think of how many people use Pharyngula to educate themselves outside their own field of study, and the same I guess was true for the RD forums(I didnt read there much).

A lot of people have taken huge amounts of time to write comment posts that hundrets of people use to inform and educate themselves about a wide variety of topics, and I think that accumulated knowledge and wisdom is worth preserving.

I hadnt read anything useful outside my own field since graduating in medicine really, and I painfully realised that after coming here, and now have a library full of science and other books, plus almost 3 years worth of reading here, and I can only imagine how it must have been for other people, coming here or to RDF.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 2, 2010 1:13 AM

I hope somebody from the evolutionist side explain how plants were formed thru evolution or natural selection when there was only soil, water, air and the sun.

facepalm

Do idiots like these even read, anything (even their own bible)?

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 2, 2010 1:26 AM

Gyeong Hwa Pak, where did that come from?

The quote or my reaction?

The quote came from Rorschach who quoted an a commenter who was outraged that the administration would acknowledge the existance of people without religion.

My reaction was normal.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 2, 2010 1:46 AM

Even in my current mental fog, their ignorant questions offends me.

God choose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise.

1 Corinthians 1:18-27

Being shit stoopid was God's plan for them.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 2, 2010 2:23 AM

I was listening to the radio earlier today, and they had a vet on telling me that 1 in 5 pets("like humans")have a mental illness. Apparently there is a new drug out that combats "canine compulsive disorder".

I headdesked and facepalmed, and then wondered about the broader philosophical implications.....I guess dogs and cats have a neocortex, and can have neurotransmitter disturbances, but mental illness, really ?

Doesnt a mental illness require a "mens" in the first place ?
I'm curious what people here think about this.

Posted by: neddy-s | March 2, 2010 2:36 AM

From reading other threads, it seems the 'endless thread' has become the place to post random questions to the group, and I've had this one for a long time. Please stop me anywhere along the chain where I've heard/understood wrong:

I've been told that Darwin suggested increased sexual dimorphism was adaptive, and that humans, among other species, were increasing in sexual dimorphism. I'm not sure how that could happen unless the genes that express all of the characteristics (physical, mental, emotional) identified with gender were all on the Y chromosome, or something like that. Let's say, for example, that human males are becoming more burly and human females are becoming more graceful. If a burly male and a graceful female mate, wouldn't all of their children of both genders have both burly and graceful characteristics? And wouldn't that tend to reduce sexual dimorphism, even if sexual selection seemed to encourage it? I must be missing something, and I bet someone here will be able to tell me what it is. I guess I'm most interested in this argument as it pertains to emotional/mental characteristics, as I've heard people argue that women are becoming, for example, more innately submissive as men become more innately dominant because that's what mates are selecting for.

Posted by: maureen.brian#b5c92 | March 2, 2010 2:43 AM

neddy-s,

I'm sure someone will give you a more coherent answer in due course but, until they all wake up, check out Gregor Mendel on wikipedia. (And the link towards the foot of the page on Mendelian Inheritance.)

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | March 2, 2010 2:44 AM

Rorschach,

Are you interested in anecdata? Is dementia a mental illness?

My last dog had an rather dramatic personality change accompanied by strange behaviors as she aged. She would bark at things that no one else could see when before, she never barked at all. Sometimes she would behave as though she didn't know where she was. She developed a compulsive chewing problem, but she only chewed the edges of doors. It was very strange.

On a more general note, I don't see any reason a non-human animal couldn't develop some of the symptoms of mental illness such as auditory and visual hallucinations.

Zoo animals are well-known for developing "stereotyped behaviors," but those are a result of stress. One would have to know whether the behavior was a result of mental illness caused by stress, I guess.

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | March 2, 2010 2:49 AM

I guess I'm most interested in this argument as it pertains to emotional/mental characteristics, as I've heard people argue that women are becoming, for example, more innately submissive as men become more innately dominant because that's what mates are selecting for.

Ask yourself: are men getting more dominant? Are women getting more submissive? How does this express itself in genes? Which genes lead to this behaviour? What environmental factors are causing this? Otherwise you're writing yourself a post hoc explanation which is based on nothing more than sheer conjecture.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | March 2, 2010 3:06 AM

Oh, somehow I missed that last paragraph.

I guess I'm most interested in this argument as it pertains to emotional/mental characteristics, as I've heard people argue that women are becoming, for example, more innately submissive as men become more innately dominant because that's what mates are selecting for.

Ack! I'll second what Kell, OM said. There's several huge problems here. First, we need objective evidence that women, on average, are becoming more submissive, which would require a standardized definition of submissive and what behaviors/thought patterns reflect "submissiveness." Then we'd have to do the same thing for men and dominant.

After that, the link between these two particular behavioral repertoires and specific genes would have be investigated. If such a link was found, we would then need to show how the genes are expressed differently in males and females, and finally there would need to be a demonstration that genes for female submissiveness and male dominance were increasing in frequency through time which would indicate selection for such traits.

Also, why in the world would males be the primary ones doing the selecting. In many species, females have many mating options, so they tend to be picky. The idea the females respond to selection by males, and not the other way around is antiquated; just look at peacocks/peahens.

To summarize, the assertion you heard is laughable because there's no evidence to back it up.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 2, 2010 3:12 AM

Why is there a troll trying to make the argument that all gender characteristics come from the X or Y chromosome? What is the troll's point?

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 2, 2010 3:16 AM

Rorschach, I think it is more of a suggestion instead of a rule. Sick 'em!

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | March 2, 2010 3:20 AM

Rorschach,

Thanks, I'm too tired to even use google right now :)

I guess part of the question is whether we consider mental illness as only the physical problems like low levels of serotonin or what have you, or is the diagnosis of mental illness dependent on the sentience of the patient. Does the patient have to be aware that they have a "mind*" in order for their "mind" to be sick.

As for a schizophrenic dog, I don't really know what would happen to a dog that had hallucinations. It would probably be weird. I'm pretty sure though that 20% of our pets are not mentally ill in a way that impacts their quality of life.

* I put mind in quotes because brain doesn't really seem to fit here, but mind feels kinda fuzzy to me.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 2, 2010 3:29 AM

Does the patient have to be aware that they have a "mind*" in order for their "mind" to be sick.

Fascinating question, isnt it !! Do you have to be self-aware to be "mentally ill". And I'm not talking about a dog or cat being held in the laundry without any place to run and hunt and play and do dog and cat things getting sad here....

Anyway, I thought that was interesting, I think what the CCD thing is really, is a great way to sell antidepressants to pets and get rich with it.

Posted by: llewelly | March 2, 2010 3:42 AM

Pygmy Loris | March 2, 2010 3:20 AM:

Does the patient have to be aware that they have a "mind*" in order for their "mind" to be sick.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 2, 2010 3:54 AM

What "3-comment rule"?

Well the one by which we are meant to show leniency to stupid first and second comments, and only murder them after the third attempt.
I dont like it, in case you wonder LOL

The one upthread seems to have been a drive-by anyway.

Posted by: John Morales | March 2, 2010 4:24 AM

Walton, it's not a rule, it's but "A suggestion for the comments" by PZ.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 2, 2010 4:45 AM

And actually, looking through that thread, Pygmy Loris/Monado/Chimpy/Ichthyic/Owlmirror/Kristine/Ron Sullivan were all there in 2006 !!

Posted by: negentropyeater | March 2, 2010 5:47 AM

I dont like it, in case you wonder LOL

Why ?

I agree that there are some first comments where it doesn't apply (eg a new commenter called Evolutionisascam asks the why are there still monkeys question).

But for many cases, I think it's a fair rule.
For instance, I think it applies to the nelly-s comment above.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 2, 2010 6:55 AM

A new, cloudless day, two new gaps in the fossil record!!!

Meet Sanajeh, the intermediate-mouthed snake (open-access pdf) from the end of the Cretaceous.

Today there are narrow-mouthed snakes, which can't swallow anything larger than their heads, and there are wide-mouthed snakes (Macrostomata); the latter have amazingly mobile skulls, including mobile palate bones for pulling themselves over prey (the palate bears teeth as usual). Sanajeh provides an intermediate: the mobile palate is present, but the mouth can't be made very wide. The 3.5-m-long skeleton was found together with sauropod dinosaur eggs; the snake wasn't able to swallow the spherical eggs, so it probably waited for the 0.5-m-long hatchlings to come out. Check out fig. 2.

Close relatives of Sanajeh have been known for a long time, but only from incomplete remains, especially no snout/palate bones. Too bad they died out a few tens of thousands of years ago (Australia had the last ones).

IOW, I'm a knowledge slut.

<increasing heart rate>
<slight opening of mouth; hissing sound at every inhalation>

something to get rid of that massive headache that's been plaguing me all day would help, too.

Aspirine? Sold over here in pharmacies in huge amounts – the fizzing tablets I bought have 500 mg aspirine each.

<pushes tablets into tubes of Internet>

(...Paracetamol? WTF. That's an industrial-strength one. Do Americans seriously take paracetamol against a simple headache!?!)

he's probably gonna get mollified with the January molly, so you'll have to find someone else to nominate for February.

Feynmaniac and a_ray_in_dilbert_space as usual.

well, look at that. David is in that clip, pretending to be a deer.

:-)

Anyway this is the second written assignment: after doing the readings "the student will determine which theory-based body of knowledge most closely coincides with his or her personal beliefs as it pertains to how children, grow, and develop."

WTF.

Beliefs?

Theory-based knowledge as opposed to knowledge-based theory!?!

...Ignore me, I'm getting holy wrath again.

To any future historians reading this I say 'hello'. How good is your knowledge of early 21st century internet culture? Are you aware of all internet traditions?

I laughed so hard...

If I said 'play him off keyboard cat', would you know what that meant?

What does it mean?

Do people swear in Chinese?

It does sound good to say "fuck" in Mandarin: cào, with a very loudly aspirated [tsʰ] at the beginning, and an inbuilt exclamation mark (that's the "`" part). It being a verb, it's not used alone, but rather you say "I fuck" when you're not content with the general situation: wǒ cào.

I guess dogs and cats have a neocortex, and can have neurotransmitter disturbances, but mental illness, really ?

Sure, why not?

Although, of course, this applies:

(not to say that other animals can't suffer from mental illness - just sounds like something a crank would pull out of his arse in order to sell a product)

I suppose a careful diagnosis is needed. 1 in 5 sounds a bit much.

I've been told that Darwin suggested increased sexual dimorphism was adaptive, and that humans, among other species, were increasing in sexual dimorphism. I'm not sure how that could happen unless the genes that express all of the characteristics (physical, mental, emotional) identified with gender were all on the Y chromosome, or something like that.

Gene regulation, for instance. There's a gene on the Y chromosome that switches the transcription of genes on other chromosomes on... it gets a lot more complicated, but that gene (SRY, "sex-determining region on the Y chromosome") is one well-understood example.

Importantly, however, if Darwin really claimed we humans are getting more dimorphic over time, he was wrong. Not only is it not happening, we are also considerably less dimorphic than chimps, gorillas, or orang-utans.

Do you have to be self-aware to be "mentally ill".

Well, what is self-awareness in the first place.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | March 2, 2010 7:50 AM

Paracetamol? WTF. That's an industrial-strength one. Do Americans seriously take paracetamol against a simple headache!?!

What? Over here we call it Tylenol, and we used to call it Panadol, and we call it all sorts of things, if you're referring to acetaminophen. It's so common over here I can spell it without looking it up. It's basically the default pain reliever. We give it to infants for minor fever. I take it because aspirin, ibuprofen, and ketoprofen irritate my stomach.

Your reaction does, however, explain the concern of a pharmacist in Langenhagen when I asked her for some for slight post-surgical pain (I was feeling it a little after a long work day). She asked me if I was sure I knew what it was and if I had ever taken it before.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | March 2, 2010 8:16 AM

Sometimes I hate the 3-comment rule PZ.

Reading the post you're responding to, and your own, I'm strangely reminded of some old Dilbert cartoon. For some reason, the titular character is in some weirdly sadistic training session in which he is required not to flip out on a guy brought in expressly to say some spectacularly stupid shit... He is finding this extremely difficult, as said stupid shit builds up extremely rapidly. In the last panel, we see him holding his head, apparently experiencing pain due to the sheer effort involved...

... 'kay, so actually, like a lot of Dilbert, it was really only vaguely funny at best. But it did contain the word 'Yugo', which is one of those oddly intrinsically funny words--sorta like 'bagel' and 'rutabaga'... So it worked okay, on balance, I guess.

(/*Anyway, my point is, I feel your pain. There is something slightly sadistic to those with functioning forebrains about the three-comment rule. And, more to the point, if we had a proper method of measuring stupid, and could set that as the shenanigans threshold instead, that comment would easily have passed it on its own, I'm sure.)

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | March 2, 2010 9:05 AM

I don't spend much of my time considering evolution in humans 1) because I find humans to be a sadly boring organisms (only two interacting genomes, no persistent embryonic tissue, and a completely milquetoast breeding system), and 2) because claims of evolution in modern humans are often retarded, such as that being discussed here. Sexual dimorphism aside: Human populations are so panmictic that selection pressures would have to be immensely strong to allow any new variant to spread with any efficiency, AND the strength of selection would have to be uniform across human populations.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 2, 2010 9:46 AM

HIIIII? I only know OUIIIIIIN !!! That sounds a lot better. Nobody cries "ee".

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 2, 2010 10:09 AM

Aspirine? Sold over here in pharmacies in huge amounts – the fizzing tablets I bought have 500 mg aspirine each.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 2, 2010 10:26 AM

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 2, 2010 10:09 AM

I can't resist asking: already up or <shudder> still up at 9 in the morning?

I only take aspirin for extreme or long-lasting headaches, which aren't common (for instance when I have the flu). I tend to sleep instead (…which I'd do anyway, but… well).

Catholics? Check out this article about Catholics:

From there:

A new study concludes that women at Catholic colleges are more promiscuous than their peers at secular colleges, raising new alarms about the state of Catholic higher education.

Researchers from Mississippi State University looked at a survey of 1,000 college students nationwide and were surprised to find that “women attending colleges and universities affiliated with the Catholic Church are almost four times as likely to have participated in ‘hooking up’ compared to women at secular schools. A “hook up” is defined as a casual physical encounter with a male student, without the expectation of an ongoing relationship.

The researchers consider whether the data challenges the “moral communities” argument, according to which some analyst believe that campus communities with shared moral convictions tend to have a strong moral influence on students.

“At first blush, these results might appear to challenge the ‘moral communities’ thesis,” the researchers write, because students are behaving contrary to Catholic teaching while attending Catholic institutions. “On closer inspection, however, our findings might instead suggest that not all religiously affiliated colleges and universities constitute ‘moral communities.’”

Overall, the study found clear differences in the sexual activity of Catholic students who attend weekly Mass. Whereas 24 percent of Catholic women who attend Mass weekly have “hooked up” (compared to 38 percent of nonreligious students), the rate more than doubles to 50 percent of Catholic women who attend Mass infrequently—far more than their nonreligious peers.

Being on the Internet, I've heard about the stereotype, but… how does this work? It doesn't make any sense for there to be a difference by a factor of 4.

At Catholic colleges, however, “annual declines in religious service attendance [are] approximately 2.5 times the rate of students enrolled in public higher education.” The declines are primarily found among non-Catholic Christians, but Catholic students are no more religious than their peers at public universities—a finding that is confirmed by the Georgetown study. Hill attributes the lax religiosity at Catholic colleges to the lack of a “clear, robust, religious tradition on many of these campuses.”

In a report last month, Catholic researchers at Georgetown University found significant declines in Catholic practice and fidelity among students at 34 Catholic colleges in the United States.

Likewise, a 2008 study published by The Cardinal Newman Society found that 46 percent of current and recent students at Catholic colleges nationwide—and 50 percent of female students—said they had engaged in sex outside of marriage. Three out of five agreed strongly or somewhat that premarital sex is not a sin, and 78 percent disagreed strongly or somewhat that using a condom to prevent pregnancy was a serious sin.

This, on the other hand, doesn't surprise me at all, except that I think Hill has cause and effect mixed up.

Posted by: David Marjanović | March 2, 2010 10:30 AM

Case in point: I'm probably having a mild headache right now, because of the weather or so. I didn't notice, because I thought I'm just being tired, which in fact I am, additionally.

:-)

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 2, 2010 10:33 AM

Finally kindly tell your fellow blogger to mind their manners when they are discussing. Continue to challenge their racial bigotry which makes it look like an African cant have a PhD or be able to blog! Some of these comments are vulgar, obscene and totally lacking objectivity with which constructive debate can be engaged in.

Isn't this lovely? A wannabe murderous monster tries to hide behind charges of the alleged racism of his critics. It also seems that a concern troll can run their own blog.

As for obscenity, this person shows gay scat porn as examples of 'typical gay porn' at churches in order to gain support for his murderous desire. But you better be fucking civil to his PhD!

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 2, 2010 10:44 AM

Being on the Internet, I've heard about the stereotype, but… how does this work? It doesn't make any sense for there to be a difference by a factor of 4.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | March 2, 2010 10:52 AM

Janine, you should see what the wannabe murderer wrote here:

Thank you for your kindness in advertising my blog. But why are you indulging into racism by reading me as the Ugandan Rick Warren? Why is it every time a black man does something good..like a blog, or the anti homosexuality bill, you want to credit a white man ie Rick Warren or some White Americans who visited Uganda? Please go ahead and read my blog as I read yours..and have the kindness to leave a polite comment. Check out the new video of the demo…and the statement on the expose on what homosexuals really do…Thanks and let the truth win out.

Posted by: Epikt | March 2, 2010 11:00 AM

Mr T:

I just like to write about music and could do it endlessly, even longer than the endless thread itself. My apologies if anyone finds it excessively boring or annoying.

Oh, not at all. Keep it up. It's one of my vices, too.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | March 2, 2010 11:07 AM

Uh oh, I accidentally deleted some important words...

... oddly enough, I'd delete different ones:

If it gets bad enough, and something is readily available, I take the drugs!

(/I keed. I keed. I'd actually say I'm actually sorta cautious, too, 'bout overusing anything, whether over-the-counter or prescription. My philosophy is not so much just 'suck it up' so much as 'kay... let's count some costs and benefits, here'... but anyway.)

Posted by: Paul | March 2, 2010 11:12 AM

Even Orac is calling out the Colgate Twins for data on their unsubstantiated claims (this time in response to Kirshenbaum opining on how Science Blogs are getting so mean and possibly without value now):

Clearly Sheril never experienced the wild and wooly world of Usenet back in its heyday in the 1990s through the early 2000s, before web-based discussion forums and blogging in essence killed it to the point where many ISPs don’t even maintain a Usenet server anymore. If Sheril thinks the blogosphere is nasty, I can show her some discussions in various newsgroups that would show her that the blogosophere is relatively tame. There are threads where I was labeled a pedophile, among the milder things they called me, all for doing two things (1) opposing Holocaust denial and (2) arguing for science in medicine. I recall one thread where an elderly WWII vet was taunted as a “murderer” by a neo-Nazi because he was a fighter pilot who had engaged in strafing and bombing runs. The list goes on.

None of this is anything new at all, of course. Only the youngsters coming to it are new. Having never seen it before, they think that somehow the blogosphere is getting nastier when in reality it’s just a massive case of confirmation bias. Of course, if someone could show me some data somewhere to substantiate the claim that the blogosphere is getting progressively nastier, like any good skeptic I’d be open to possibly changing my mind if the evidence is sufficiently compelling, but absent that all this handwringing about how horrible the blogosphere has allegedly become betrays a profound lack of experience and knowledge of the history of online discussion forums.

God, I feel old after having said that.

Emphasis mine.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | March 2, 2010 11:18 AM

Oh yeah... Mr. T: The point was keep writing. I think what you have to say is interesting, submoronic as I am about such things.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | March 2, 2010 11:26 AM

Plenty of subliterate pissants operate their own blogs...

Hey now, leave me out of this!

(... Also, look on the bright side: it keeps me off the streets.)

Somewhat more seriously, re Ssempa's porn show, and his threat/offer to take it to parliament, did he?

I'm just wondering because I'd like to read the transcript. Especially the opposition questions:

'The honourable member for X province would like to know: where and how did Mr. Ssempa find this material?...'

(/...And what is Mr. Ssempa doing Friday evening? A few of us on this side of the house could bring him along on our regular thing... Our feeling is he may find it liberating...)

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawncr0FDc8gdl7yJBz0SJ15D0etcTIOtL0s | March 2, 2010 11:34 AM

In a typical example of great timing, I posted the URL for the San Francisco falconcam on the day they changed it. Here's
the new one .

There's one in San Jose too.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 2, 2010 11:45 AM

I just like to write about music and could do it endlessly, even longer than the endless thread itself. My apologies if anyone finds it excessively boring or annoying.

I love it! It's one of the few times on here that a subject comes up in an area I actually feel confident talking about. Your thoughts and analysis is appreciated, at least by me, what is your musical background anyway? Do you teach?

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 2, 2010 11:58 AM

Oooh bad grammar. Bad bad grammar. Apologies.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 2, 2010 12:08 PM

@ neddy-s

Thanks for posting again then to clarify. I hope you stick around because you'll learn a lot more about those things (or at least I have). When I first posted here I got a similar reaction for being genuinely ignorant of some things and a little bit naive. I was a little vitamin/homeopathy woo oriented, for instance. I was also in a bit of a bad place emotionally because of some personal troubles. Of course when I started posting here I was also very young! But it's been worth it to participate over the years, and recently I've done so a lot more.

People can be prickly but it's only because there are really a lot of people who come by and ask things like that just to provoke or try to justify their weird ideas.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | March 2, 2010 12:25 PM

Neddy-s,

I'm glad you got the info here to refute these kinds of claims. Anytime you here stories of how selection is acting in humans, you should be very wary. The popular media tend to sensationalize very tentative findings, and evolutionary psychology is a very, very fuzzy discipline.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 2, 2010 1:20 PM

neddy-s: the neverending thread is indeed the place for any and all questions, but especially as you're first establishing a persona it's good to add in some background. Some of us are fairly quick on the trigger finger because there have been an awful lot of people who come in trying for a fight. Not as many since registration got stabilized, but still a few here and there. You didn't mean to, but your phrasing stumbled upon the same construction that a lot of fairly nasty characters use to "just ask a question" when they are really trying to insinuate eugenic arguments. People are happy to help; you just happened to word your first comment the wrong way (like accidentally wearing the wrong color in the wrong part of town) and without enough surrounding info (you had looked it up, you're leaning towards one answer or the other, this is how it came up wrt your situation, etc.) to be clear what was going on.
And just as another explanation (no excuse, just explanation), huge numbers of us have been seriously on edge lately due to a lot of internet misunderstandings and are just generally more pissy than usual.

Posted by: kantalope | March 2, 2010 2:02 PM

Neddy-s

Have to agree with you on some of the comments being off-putting. This is not the place for thin skins.

Welcome to the Jungle.

But I have not found a care-bear forum with as much information.

I actually have a conjecture (less than a theory you know) that pz set up pharyngula discussions as an experiment for testing the relative survivability of aggressive web-species. Grrrrr.

Anyway, you dimorphism question has lots of things going on. Some already mentioned but another would be that the brutishness of males and the grace of females could be from the same gene and just expressed differently due to different 'expression' genes that are sex linked. It just gets more complicated the more you find out. And don't just pick out the male hormones. The female ones are just as powerful.

I think the submissive thing has some real historical troubles too...would seem, at least in the Western world, that any pressure on selecting submissiveness has lessened rather than increased, recently anyway. And then you have the trouble of no longer isolating populations. Time for another Amish study I guess, since human breeding experiments are notoriously difficult to manage and get funded. (hehe)

Anyway good luck. I would think that people here would remember how much BAD evolutionary information is out there and hold their fire a bit but this is the internet.

But just so you don't get the idea that they are picking on you specifically - when I tell folks about the culture here I tell them about the thread where everyone was told that a little naive was going to stop by and ask questions and people were tossing F-bombs about - probably while she was typing her intro....ah, good times.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | March 2, 2010 2:54 PM

We give it to infants for minor fever.

Yep. It started sometime in the early '80s (at least, that's when I recall the big push starting), with a co-relation between aspirin and Reye's Syndrome being found in kids; I think they still advise against giving aspirin to anyone under about 18 without a doctor's advice.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | March 2, 2010 3:04 PM

Blockquote FAIL. *sigh* That should have been:

We give it to infants for minor fever.

Yadda yadda.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 2, 2010 3:27 PM

Becca - thanks for the info! One of my friends also goes to Pennsic every year, so I can probably get the info from her (and then put it on my list of "things to buy when I have money").

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | March 2, 2010 3:38 PM

...

And here I just spent lunch saying that there was no way in Hell I'd get on a plane for more than 24 hours.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 2, 2010 4:00 PM

For the first time, I am linking to a music video for the video. Here is This Too Shall Pass by OK Go. You are going to see this everywhere, I have already seen it on a couple of blogs. You might as well see it now. Come on, everybody loves Rube Goldberg.

Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM | March 2, 2010 4:12 PM

I would like to boast that I got bitten by a deadly spider on the weekend ( a redback ).The bite itself was excruciating for a few hours but rather than waste everyone's time at the A & E I rang my doc who basically told me the symptoms and if they started to manifest themselves to get to the hospital. Apparently normal healthy adults will usually get a bit sick but be ok and the anti venom can make you sicker than the bite. Apart from some profuse sweating, slightly elevated pulse (90 ish) and a bad headache I was as right as rain the next day. Except now the bite site is devloping cellutitis ( I think- nothing like a bit of self diagnosis I say) so I'm off the see the doc this morning. It's as itchy as all hell and driving me nuts.

Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM | March 2, 2010 4:18 PM

As an addendum can I just say that even though I survived the experience until the next day the bitch who bit me did not. Having said that I appreciate she was only doing what she does as a defence and I've still got her in a little bottle of alcohol to show off to people. I had a moment where I seriously thought about having her encased in something and made into a necklace but I decided that was a little Angelina Jolie even for me.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 2, 2010 4:19 PM

aratina cage, thanks for the update. That's some beautifully ignorant stuff there. It's amazing how some people absolutely can't differentiate between "bad words" and "deliberately inflammatory assaults on character". And the two guys over there are going on and on about PZ flunky suckups, when one glance at the Dawkins thread clearly shows many longtime commenters ripping PZ to shreds over his position on it.

Posted by: blf | March 2, 2010 4:28 PM

Some [spiders] I do let stay, but they need to know it's still my call.

Shelob.

Posted by: Knockgoats | March 2, 2010 4:53 PM

Glad to hear you're OK, Bride of Shrek, OM! When I told Sven he should love spiders, I admit I was forgetting the kinds you get in Oz. Does anywhere else have really dangerous ones? (IIRC, tarantulas aren't, and James Bond was being a real wuss.)

Posted by: strange gods before me ॐ homintern radfem | March 2, 2010 5:04 PM

neddy-s: consider that people reacted unkindly because you sounded like an anti-feminist. There are worse reasons to be unkind.

Posted by: John Morales | March 2, 2010 5:11 PM

Neddie:

But now that I've had personal exposure to the community, it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth, which is unfortunate for me as I don't think I'll be able to continue to read it any more without having negative feelings.

Such a sensitive soul, you are.

Welcome to Pharyngula!

Posted by: SC OM | March 2, 2010 5:20 PM

I just got home and I'm having a little laughing fit. The people commenting on that idiotic post at the Multi-Car Pile-Up seem to be engaging in some amusing oneupmanship involving which implements (and in which condition) they were told to violate themselves with here. And then bilbo admits he was trolling here, acknowledging that he's in fact trolling there now.

Too much.

Posted by: SC OM | March 2, 2010 5:32 PM

I can look out into my classroom of 100 students, and for almost all of them I can infer (with varying degrees of precision) the geographical origin of (at least some of) their ancestors. I really can; so can you.

How do you do with this?

http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_00-home.htm

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | March 2, 2010 5:53 PM

(No Longer A)Bride, is there anything there that is not poisonous? (Please note, I am half kidding here.)

that said, I think the correct answer to that is "some of the sheep"

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | March 2, 2010 5:57 PM

I for one CAN NOT spot people's race to save my life and just don't try. That being said it cracks me up when in all certain company of some certain race when some one begins venting some kind of race anxiety and every once in a while if it is the right race they will nervously look over and say "Hey, (my name here), you're not (x-race) are you?" Which is funny as hell if you could see me.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 2, 2010 6:11 PM

I for one CAN NOT spot people's race to save my life and just don't try.

Seriously? All "races"? Or are you pulling a Stephen Colbert?

Noticing differences in race and culture is not always a bad thing or a sign of racism.

Frankly I'm interested in people's race and what cultural differences may or may not be a product of a difference in their race from mine. I enjoy learning about people's lives that grew up differently than myself. Now granted, someone's race doesn't mean there is a difference, but it might. And variety is the spice of life (yes that's cheesy).

I personally don't think being aware of race or differences in culture is a bad thing. I mean I didn't grow up in New Orleans but damn if it isn't one of my favorite places on earth and a large reason for that is the African American culture there.

But I also grew up in the South with all that comes along with it race being something you are always aware of. Luckily I grew up in a very liberal family that enforced the celebrate the differences ideal.

Posted by: Killer Bud | March 2, 2010 6:16 PM

Ok, thought this would be a good spot to post this. My sister in law is going to this church, at first she called it a cult, and was saying how people were speaking in tongues, and laying on hands etc; freaked her out. Now 2 weeks later she is saying she cant get enough of the place and loves all the people in there.
My other half is an atheist and flipped out on her a little bit recently when her sister was all geared up to be indoctrinated into this church, and asking for her friends and family to support her endeavers of going to some program they have set up for making people spiritual leaders in their church.
So during the flipping out phase my wife decided to go to a link on her facebook to this church's facebook site.
They have specks of light on several pictures, and they are claiming they were orbs caused by the holy spirit.
I have a few pictures of it on my blog, but if you want to go to the site and see for yourself and get a good laugh go to this link...
/rant

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Concord-NC/FIRE-Church/212497910331#!/photo.php?pid=9996110&id;=212497910331

Posted by: badgersdaughter | March 2, 2010 6:28 PM

Killer Bud, I'm sorry about your sister-in-law. I hope she gets enough of that crap quickly and comes unharmed back out the other side.

My mother, when she was alive, belonged to a Holy Roller, speaking in tongues, Deep South cult church. She would try to make me go with her fairly often. My brother goes to one of those overly large charismatic Southern Baptist churches. It is hard, when you are an atheist and a member of your immediate family importunes you to go to church with them, and sooner or later your sis-in-law is going to try to insist that you or your wife attend with her, if she hasn't already started.

With my brother, I can say, "Hey, Mike, I might go sometime with you, but this morning I just don't feel comfortable with it." Mom didn't care whether I was comfortable or not; she meant for me to go. The only way I got out of it was to leave the house early on church days and not come back until the danger was past. The only battle I lost was the one where Mom's preacher invited me to sing the offertory solo that morning. I am a choir slut, haha.

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | March 2, 2010 6:36 PM

Aargh, I just broke my self-imposed 'don't post on blogs dominated by complete tools with no idea' rule and added to the Intersection pile-up about blog civility.

You'd think that the Intersection would take a leaf out of what it preaches and be a beacon of civility and tolerance. Instead it's the same damn shit as everywhere else, combined with a holier than thou attitude.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | March 2, 2010 6:40 PM

I also have a terrible time telling ethnicities, mainly because I haven't been exposed enough to people I know are one or the other (my hometown is 97% white). I can't tell various southeast Asian groups from each other, nor different African groups, and I'm lucky if I can get the general part of the continent right with Europeans. It's just a lack of meeting people of specific ethnic groups combined with not wanting to ask about the backgrounds of the ones I do meet, so I've never developed the skill.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | March 2, 2010 6:49 PM

...peoples' faith just seems to get stronger when this stuff happens...

Oh, on the contrary. "Methinks they doth protest too much." I would hardly think they would be so keen on trotting out the old pious reassurances if they didn't badly need to reassure themselves.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | March 2, 2010 6:51 PM

SaraJ, for those that believe, it is considered a virtue to hold on to your faith when your situation is bad. But I am so far removed from when I had faith, I cannot understand why some people find comfort. Instead, I just have my rage at those people who commit murders.

Posted by: Dust.....spy | March 2, 2010 7:00 PM

SaraJ @ 593 lamented

I need to just... vent

I hear ya, where was their gawd when that girl needed help? No fuckin' where to be found as usuall!

We had a tradedy in the family recently, where was gawd when my family member needed, really needed and could of used some of that all knowing, loving forgiving help?

*crickets*

But prayers after the fact---ohhh, so impressive! Oh, NOT!
Pardon my bad attitude you prayers, I am not amused.

Posted by: SC OM | March 2, 2010 7:00 PM

I got a text message from a puppy over the weekend.

Case closed. :)

Seriously, though, has anyone defined "mind" for the pursposes of that discussion?

I've linked to this

http://video.pbs.org/video/1200128615/

before, but I thought the part (last segment: "Shared Goals") about how other primates don't understand pointing but dogs do was super interesting.

Posted by: Rorschach | March 2, 2010 7:03 PM

Dr Rory's Internet Practice is open :

Apparently normal healthy adults will usually get a bit sick but be ok and the anti venom can make you sicker than the bite. Apart from some profuse sweating, slightly elevated pulse (90 ish) and a bad headache I was as right as rain the next day. Except now the bite site is devloping cellutitis ( I think- nothing like a bit of self diagnosis I say) so I'm off the see the doc this morning. It's as itchy as all hell and driving me nuts.

Anaphylactic reactions to the antivenom are quite rare, and it works like a charm with female redback bites, usually takes all pain away within minutes.If you still have local sweating, aches and pains and systemic signs, get the stuff.

@ 510,

Over here we call it Tylenol, and we used to call it Panadol, and we call it all sorts of things, if you're referring to acetaminophen. It's so common over here I can spell it without looking it up. It's basically the default pain reliever.

Yup, same here.Never works for my headaches, and never works for anyone's pain I think, but everyone eats it, including patients in hospital.Most common drug to O/D on btw, because you can buy 100 for 5 bucks or so, and thats plenty to stuff up your liver for good, if untreated.Not a good way to go, I should add.Had 2 girls in their 20s go on the transplant list last year after Panadol O/D.

SGBM @ 577,
thatnks for the link, will go and check it out.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | March 2, 2010 7:06 PM

Ol'Greg

I'm with you. My son is 'A person of colour' (his term). Our family name is fairly uncommon away from Somerset and Bristol, but branches of my family are from Corsica, (with Italian surnames) and Switzerland.
Somerset was raided by the Vikings, occupied by the Romans and is on the edge of the 'Celtic Fringe'. My home city is a seaport and was a major centre of the slave trade with all that that implies.
I've been told that I 'look Mediterranean' whatever that means.
I think I share the Rev's interest in other people's perception of their origins but I find it very difficult to initiate a conversation about this, probably because I have gained some dim, flickering understanding of the racism that my son has endured.
I'm afraid that I fall back on the 'We're all Africans' line.

Posted by: windy | March 2, 2010 7:10 PM

Is Homo sapiens polytypic?

No, Homo sapiens is ecotypic.

In related news: the origin of polar bears!

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | March 2, 2010 7:21 PM

Clinal variation does not depend on limited gene flow to develop; it is dependent on clinal variation in environmental influence.

Both levels of gene flow* and a selection gradient may contribute to clinal variation, and both could be taken into account. I think Sven's point was that gene flow can actually overcome the effects of local selection if the rate of migration of an allele into a population is greater than the selection coefficient removing it--obviously restricting gene flow allows local selection pressure to change allele frequencies with greater efficacy**. Obviously in this case, the frequency of an allele along some transect will be dependent not on a selection gradient, but on the distance from the source population.

*The tension-zone model of hybrid swarm maintenance actually predicts a steep cline while selection against hybrids (F1 and F2) is uniform.
**Now that I think about it, this is doubly true due to the Wahlund effect...increase in homozygosity following population subdivision...trait heritability is greater in populations with excess homozygosity.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | March 2, 2010 7:33 PM