I've just watched all of the 'sexist' adverts in that article and I can only assume that the complainers where specifically looking for stuff to be offended by.

she got thousands of horrific internet comments, of which "I hope you get cancer" was the mildest.

Has there been a scientific study linking wishing people cancer with incidence of cancer?
If not, why should anybody give a monkeys?

The treatment of some female gamers is horrendous, but I don't want my games smothered in Political Correctness gloop and turned into tasteless grey gruel.

Is there no middle ground?

Where on earth is all of this coming from? A 'cut-scene' in a video game where a guy suggestively moves his hand down her side towards her hip right before getting kicked in his 'sweet spot'? Guardian 'writers' and their false agenda out in full force.

Rachel, why not take such an issue with a more disturbing game... RapeLay?

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Whilst the nature of the worst comments she received where inexcusable, Anita Sarkeesian certainly doesn't deserve a free pass. I've seen her videos on youtube before and her ability to find offense in the most innocent things is breathtaking.

Quite frankly I think she does women a disservice because genuine grievances will be drowned out by the sort of trivial nonsense she often complains about.

Separately these issues might seems like trifles, but together they add up to an unflattering portrait of the tech industry as the slightly sleazy executive, greying around the temples while simultaneously obsessing over and yet excluding women from his world.

Mr Woodward! The big straw man's ready!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE

Why is it that the word 'sexism' is seem as a province open solely to female offence? Reading some of the articles in this paper you'd think men were the agents of all oppression and the objects of none.

I think the author actually has a problem with "sexy" in videogames and promotional materials.

(Unless it's the muscly, male hero/Diet Coke guy kinda sexy, obviously! Duh!)

sexy != sexist

Exactly. All video game characters tend to be larger than life and physically ludicrous, its the nature of the medium.

Seeing as Lara Croft is the most talked about female video game character and the main example used when talking about 'sexualisation' lets look at her male counterpart Nathan Drake.

He is ruggedly handsome, can perform ludicrous feats of acrobatics, he has perfect hair that is never messy, perfect teeth and permanently has 2 days stubble, no less no more.

He is every bit as silly and unrealistic example of physical perfection as Lara Croft ever was, and yes he is sexualized. yet whilst we have no issue with suspension of disbelief for him, Lara for some reason is constantly analyzed.

Do tell us of the last occasion where you were ignored or abused, despite knowing about a topic, solely because of your gender. Or when your presence was demanded somewhere to be a decorative object, regardless of your intellect, for the titillation of others.

None of the article is about how things appear in gameplay. Try to focus on the topic at hand, which is the treatment of women - real life women - in and around the games industry.

I think the Anita Sarkeesian story, while a sad tale of how awful some people can be, is actually a powerful example of how anti-sexist and progressive the industry can be as a whole. Yes, she received a load of sexist comments (noting that one person participating in a coordinated hate campaign can post more than one comment). However, she also busted her target of $6,000 by $97,000. That's about $100 per hateful comment. i.e., when it comes to putting your hand in your pocket rather than frothing all over your keyboard, gamers are generally a progressive, open minded people.

Try to focus on the topic at hand, which is the treatment of women - real life women - in and around the games industry.

Try not to patronise readers of the section you edit.

Surely the Tyler thing is more about supposedly being a non gamer as opposed to a woman

While I agree sexism is predominantly a problem experienced by women, it doesn't mean it doesn't go both ways. And why the requirement to provide personal experience?

Fair enough, but given that the subject Anita Sarkeesian was writing about is the appearance of female game character I would argue that it's relevant to point out why I think that she is wrong.

Comments on YouTube are generally moronic, trying to use a small sample of them them to prove a wider point about society is downright silly. As nasty as the hackers where they are no more representative of men as a whole than Lulzsec.

I also think its a shame if their activities are used to deflect away legitimate criticism of Anita and her manipulative methods. Her actual videos tend to be full of silly examples blown out of all proportion and her latest ones are no different. You may also notice that negative portrayals of women are defined are 'Tropes' whilst negative portrayals of men are taken entirely at face value. She doesn't just border on self parody, she actually crosses the line.

Other examples in the article are equally daft. As I said earlier there is nothing sexist about any of the adverts in the article about 'sexist' technology adverts. Sexy perhaps, but not sexist. A couple (the one about the password protected bra for example) where rather funny.

As for the tweet about the girls rear, to take offense as such a thing is just nonsensical. It's obvious no offense was intended, so why are so many people so keen to take it? Particularly on behalf of someone else. This is especially daft when you consider that the girl concerned was a model and was hired specifically for the purpose of being alluring.

What a silly article. Just had a look at your tweets and it's funny to see how hypocritical you are.

All this will have done is reinforce any sexism that preexisted amongst gamers and those in the games industry. If you're speaking up for / representing women gamers or women working in the industry you've just put them back a mile. Still, nice to see your favourite things are technology, food and "small animals wearing clothes".

Who the fook is Sarkeesian? I've been playing games since the 80's and I've never heard of her. I know she didn't program Doom or design the PlayStation, so what is her contribution to the games industry?

Hmm. I assume the 'get over it' commenters are all women? No? "Women mustn't misjudge or overreact in any way to chronic male misjudgements or overreactions" seems to be the order of the day. I'm so shocked.. How boring. Keep fighting it Ms Weber.

The article has the misfortune to follow two (Lara Croft + Hitman Naughty Nuns) that have, essentially, whinged about trifling issues in game content and game advertising. There is a real problem with the abuse some women gamers face - I've witnessed it and it's completely unacceptable - but that point always ends up getting obscured by obsession with other "trifles".

If writers stuck to the actual problem and stopped grinding axes on the small stuff they would receive a more receptive response, I think.

None of the article is about how things appear in gameplay.

But that's exactly what the sub-heading of the article implies Charles - "If you think sexism is ok in GAMES". You can't use a cheap attention-grabbing line like that, and then complain if people actually respond to it.

I think a distinction needs to be drawn between drawing attention to physical sexual attractiveness and actual sexism. There is no inherent problem with the former; it only becomes sexism when there is inequality involved, which is the true definition of sexism.

If we find an instance in which someone makes a sexualised comment about a woman, for example, there's nothing sexist about it unless it's not possible to imagine a similar comment being made in similar circumstances about a man.

To put it another way: I wouldn't have any problem with adverts with sexualise women, as long as there were on average the same amount of adverts that sexualise men. And the same amount of adverts that didn't sexualise either gender, but which focus on other aspects of that rich and complex thing called humanity.

There is nothing wrong with sexualisation, because there is nothing wrong with sex. Discrimination and inequality are the problems, and it's them we should be tackling.

Incidentally this is the 'rape' scene in the new Tomb Raider game that caused such a fuss(its in the last minute of the clip if you don't want to watch the whole thing). I suggest everyone watch it so they can see for themselves what a ludicrous overreaction that article was. In fact its downright inaccurate to describe it as a 'rape'.

Ironically these shrill hyperbolic faux outrages set attempts to counter genuine grievances back considerably.

Sorry if I read the article wrong, but I really don't see the "sexism" in the treatment of Ayisha.

With the exception of one incredibly vile comment, that took a hit at a broad spectrum of society, where was her gender made an issue of? (please don't say "fucking bitch" is sexist... because then so is "stupid prick" when talking about a bloke...it's not sexist, it's just a generic and tasteless insult)

There were certainly racist elements to the treatment of her, but sexist? You have people (mainly guys) automatically suspicious of anything you say when you pull that card out and there's nothing to it.

But on topic, yes, sexism indeed exists in this industry, as does racism and homophobia.
None of these deserve a place in any industry. Plus booth-babes are ridiculous. Get rid of this concept now please..

On the topic of the ASUS tweet:

1.

You know there's an issue when even the dullest of the computer firms are getting in trouble for a badly judged tweet about a (female, obviously) model's behind

Dullest? Shows how much you know about technology! Transformer series, Tai-Chi, Zenbooks.. .yes, incredibly dull, right? If there's one company that's doing a spanking job outside of Apple right now, it's ASUS.

2. SHE HAD A NICE REAR. So what???? Oh the woe in saying someone has a nice arse... Someone get me a tissue... for the tears of course.
I guarantee if you saw a great looking guy, you'd make a comment to your friends. HOW SEXIST!!!!!!!!!

This article makes a few good points. I think the problem with it comes from the hyperbole.

We are told we are that these are

the most revolting and the most insidious forms of sexism

and then we are given a few examples of fairly mild sexist behaviour.
There are real and awful examples of sexism in the world - women being paid less for the same work, denied opportunities that men take for granted, forced into marriage, forced to wear ,modest' clothing, stoned for being raped, physically mutilated, etc. To say that a woman having to put up with being told she has a nice rear is 'The most revolting sexism' is an insult to the people who suffer these things.

Considering that the games industry is mostly aimed at adolescent boys who by definition don't get out much I find the sexism surprisingly mild and infrequent.

Come on, they deserved it. The article is about a particular thing, somebody went off topic to another thing (as a roundabout way of justifying - or belittling the argument of - the original thing.

There are the manufacturers who hire the booth babes

And the booth babes are obviously working against their will. Its not like any of them might actually enjoy the attention?

they are models an after all are paid to be looked at.

If i were a booth bloke and I had a bunch of women coming to ogle me as I stand about in little more than a skimpy man thong, quite frankly Id be flattered.

Ie woman who take these jobs are to blame just as much as the companies who hire them.

There are real and awful examples of sexism in the world - women being paid less for the same work, denied opportunities that men take for granted, forced into marriage, forced to wear ,modest' clothing, stoned for being raped, physically mutilated, etc. To say that a woman having to put up with being told she has a nice rear is 'The most revolting sexism' is an insult to the people who suffer these things.

precisely.

Meanwhile at E3 2012, actress Aisha Tyler hosted the Ubisoft conference, and stepped off stage as congratulatory messages of support like "this is what happens when you let the Jews and liberals infect your industry" flooded in

i dont understand - what has being a liberal jew to do with sexism?

Or when your presence was demanded somewhere to be a decorative object, regardless of your intellect, for the titillation of others.

oh yeah - this happens to me. all the time.

Id quite like it to happen some times though.

So unless I've experienced it personally it doesn't happen? You should look up www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com. I made no statement about my own experience (although who knows in what quiet, understated ways these things might have happened -- sexism isn't always bawdy wolf whistles).

Pathetic.

"if you'd find those insults OK aimed at your motherif you'd find those insults OK aimed at your mother"

You haven't met my mother, she'd beat the shit out of any of these jerks.

What Easily Led Sed x 50,000.

Remeber when Resi was EVIL AND RACIST becaese it was set in Africa, and had African baddies?

PC will eat itself.

Or when your presence was demanded somewhere to be a decorative object, regardless of your intellect, for the titillation of others.

This is a nonsensical criticism, lots of jobs emphasise physical attributes over mental ones, it’s the nature of some lines of work. It doesn’t make them demeaning. The use of the word ‘demanded’ is also highly suspect. The girl presumably took the job of her own free will. If she’s hoping to pursue a modeling career she was probably very glad for the exposure (pardon the pun).

I also notice that despite all the faux outrage over the tweet, no one actually attempted to find out if the model herself felt degraded by it, in fact in the articles the models name isn’t even mentioned. I wonder why?

Try being the only guy in your office, and you'll soon find out that sexism is still a very real issue. I deal with it every single day, and I'm sick of it if I'm honest. Always offering to make me a cup of tea or telling me how nice my shirt looks, completely overlooking all the art I have pinned up in the cubicle (my own work), or my charity certificates.

The simple fact that I look good in a tailored shirt should not define me. And I can make my own tea! I'm a man!

"Comments on YouTube are generally moronic, trying to use a small sample of them them to prove a wider point about society is downright silly."

Surely the point is that they illustrate views that are held within society, but less extremely. They're the magnifying glass focussing the sun's rays.

"You may also notice that negative portrayals of women are defined are 'Tropes' whilst negative portrayals of men are taken entirely at face value."

You think depicting men as incredibly powerful, acrobatic and muscled is negative? Compared to portrayals where women are helpless, unable to determine their fates - hell, even Mario is guilty on this count? I think you're confusing "unattainable" and "negative". They're not synonyms.

"Sexy perhaps, but not sexist. A couple (the one about the password protected bra for example) where rather funny."

You're starting to sound as though you thought Spinal Tap was a documentary. How many ads have you seen for password-protected boxer shorts?

"As for the tweet about the girls rear, to take offense as such a thing is just nonsensical. It's obvious no offense was intended…the girl concerned was a model and was hired specifically for the purpose of being alluring."

"Come on love, what's the problem? You frigid or something?" Also: Alluring to whom? Why does she have to be alluring, rather than incredibly smart and able to answer all the showgoers' questions?

I don't think you have any idea what amount of abuse high-profile women - and even ordinary women not seeking any particular elevation - sometimes have to put up with. There have been various examples going around Twitter in the past few months with various hashtags. It's not trivial.

I usually mute other players when I play FPSs and rarely use my headset now. Yesterday, not being quick enough with the mute button, I was subjected to a tirade of verbal abuse from one disinhibited oik, simply because I was playing (consistently) better than him.

I am glad that this is getting press coverage (in the Guardian and on the BBC News website). It's unacceptable for anyone to be subjected to sexist remarks in this day and age.

I think the main point with the Lara Croft scene is not the content of the assault, it's the way the executive producer of the game described it. He appeared to accentuate the sexual threat to the character – it was his insistence that threatened rape was somehow part of the Lara mythos that made me and lots of other people uncomfortable. Really the actual on-screen depiction is NOT the focus of the argument.

I agree that we should not judge the game until we see the scene in context. Crystal Dynamics is a talented studio and it has produced some very good Tomb Raider titles - if it has decided that Lara would face that sort of aggression, we need to believe it is part of the story - and it's not an entirely unlikely scenario. But it's such a nightmarishly tricky thing to get right, I'm worried about its placement in the context of an action-focused adventure.

What gets me is the defensiveness of a lot of the commentary. There seems to be an utter inability in some quarters to recognise this as a problem. Women are generally poorly portrayed in games - they are objectified and fantasised. Certainly, there are male stereotypes, too, but they are very different - they are often about power and competency - they are rarely about titillation. How gender is portrayed in games, in movies, in TV shows IS important, because it adds toward our sense of ourselves and our position in the world - especially when we're teenagers.

I love games, heck, we all love games, but we have to be able to recognise that, now that we've won, now that everyone is playing, there is a responsibility to deal with certain things carefully, extraordinarily carefully at times.

I remember returning "Call of Juarez" after the character I was playing told a little old lady to "get on the floor bitch!". Not needed and the fact that they felt that this was acceptable to include in a game is shocking.
However, at no point have I ever heard Aisha Tyler being a big fan of computer games so would question the choice of her as she, in my opinion, has little background in the media.
If they had chosen Emily Booth or an equivalent, it would have made sense due to her background in the media...

None of the article is about how things appear in gameplay.

Indeed, but (as is often the case with these comment articles) a nuanced piece by the author is undermined by an editor adding a trolling title. In this particular piece the title specifically refers to sexism 'in games', and people have commented about sexism in games. you can't have your cake and eat it, adding a headline designed to provoke comments and then complaining that the comments reflect the headline.

Also: Alluring to whom? Why does she have to be alluring, rather than incredibly smart and able to answer all the showgoers' questions?

yep it could be that but, given that she is a booth babe, unlikely.

she is more likely to be hired to stand there, look pretty and smile.

its not sexist - its her job. men could do it too and im sure they do to a lesser degree.

melatonin, 14 June 2012 9:07PM:

Why is it that the word 'sexism' is seem as a province open solely to female offence? Reading some of the articles in this paper you'd think men were the agents of all oppression and the objects of none.

Do tell us of the last occasion where you were ignored or abused, despite knowing about a topic, solely because of your gender. Or when your presence was demanded somewhere to be a decorative object, regardless of your intellect, for the titillation of others.

Your response to melat0nin is completely illogical. First of all, what he personally has experienced is irrelevant to the question of what men in general have experienced. Second, the examples of "sexism" you list are very far from exhaustive, and are certainly not exaustive as a list of examples of "oppression" (which is a much broader category than "sexism"). Thirdly, even your examples of sexism are a bit silly, even if we're supposed to read them as merely illustrative.

Your first example is something that doesn't often happen to people of either sex, but when something like this does happen, isn't necessarily sexist. If you were to offer in mixed company a disquisition on the topic of women's experience of childbirth, it's quite likely that someone would at some stage say something like, "But what would you know? You're a man." Even this isn't a case of you being ignored solely because of your gender. If you were a consulting obstetrician, you'd probably be taken seriously. So, really, it would be a case of people making a reasonable judgement about whether you have genuinely worthwhile knowledge to impart.

Your second example has nothing to do with sexism at all. Highly attractive people of both sexes are in demand as decorative objects regardless their intellect, and many individuals are able to get jobs, and some even get rich (e.g., as models, actors, TV presenters and pop stars), precisely by exploiting this. People whose attractiveness ranks average or below rarely or never experience this, and in fact may experience insults, rejection and hindrance in their career because of it. Again, this applies to both sexes.

Illogicality and lack of clear thinking pervade discussions of sexism generally. The article above the line illustrates this quite well. "I hope you get cancer" and "This is what happens when you let Jews and liberals infect your industry", though utterly uncouth, are not, and never have been, sexist insults. Also, a company that sells a product that's popular with young men hiring "hooters girls" to staff a booth is no more sexist than a company that sells a product that's popular with young women hiring an attractive male celeb to make an appearance at a product launch.

Particularly offensive is the idea that objectifying women isn't sexist so long as you objectify men equally. Yes, we need more sexism, not less!

Obviously, you don't know what sexism is. If you treat the sexes equally, that is by definition not sexism.

Stop confusing prudery with antisexism.

Compared to portrayals where women are helpless, unable to determine their fates - hell, even Mario is guilty on this count?

Couldn't you play *as* the princess in later games though?

This was just a cutesy game about rescuing a princess, and from it you seem to be inferring the developers are saying "women *need* to be rescued".
You might as well accuse all dads who let their kids watch Snow White of pushing a sexist agenda.

I'm not denying there are sexist games out there - Dead or Alive and its 'ogle mode' leaps to mind - but Mario? Give me a break.

"I don't think you have any idea what amount of abuse high-profile women - and even ordinary women not seeking any particular elevation - sometimes have to put up with." And I don't think YOU have any real idea either, unless you're providing it. Or, perhaps he is as fully aware of it as any male can be.

"How many ads have you seen for password-protected boxer shorts?" See http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/may/20/asa-oven-pride-cleared-of-sexism for an example of a (growing?) trend in the "so simple even a man can use it" school of advertising.

"Also: Alluring to whom? Why does she have to be alluring, rather than incredibly smart and able to answer all the showgoers' questions?" Oh FFS, are you really trying to suggest that she wasn't hired to look alluring/sexy/whatever? The mobile phone industry is just joining the long of line of manipulators (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/r/jeffrey-robinson/manipulators.htm)

Surely the point is that they illustrate views that are held within society, but less extremely. They're the magnifying glass focussing the sun's rays.

That's a logical leap, and it's not supported by evidence. In fact, it makes no sense. You will see extreme and vehement opinions of every kind expressed in YouTube comments -- left-wing, right-wing, feminist, anti-feminist, racist, anti-racist, pro-Israel, anti-Israel, pro-Gnostic, anti-Gnostic, etc., etc. The mere fact that an viewpoint is expressed somewhere on YouTube cannot reasonably be inferred to mean it is very common in society at large.

You think depicting men as incredibly powerful, acrobatic and muscled is negative?

No more negative than depicting women as incredibly powerful, acrobatic and fit.

Compared to portrayals where women are helpless...

Lara Croft.

...hell, even Mario is guilty on this count?

"Guilty" is not the appropriate word. The "damsel in distress rescued by heroic male" trope isn't some kind of plot against women. For one thing, it's a trope that women themselves widely enjoy in fiction (a notorious and deplorable fact, if you're the sort of feminist who disapproves). For another, it rather reflects reality (e.g., only a tiny percentage of frontline fire officers are female; ditto frontline troops in the army). For a third thing, unless you're going to recommend separatism as an alternative, you'd hardly want the male heroes to avoid rescuing women, would you?

I think you're confusing "unattainable" and "negative". They're not synonyms.

They are in feminist discourse. The portrayal of allegedly unattainable feminine beauty is frequently railed against as sexist. Apparently, it causes men to have unrealistic ideals and makes ordinary women feel bad. By the same token, one would suppose, portraying men with Schwarzenegger physiques, perfectly symmetrical, square-jawed faces, and extraordinary strength, resilience and agility would also count as sexism, but this seems to be missing from the discourse.

How many ads have you seen for password-protected boxer shorts?</blockquotes>I have seen plenty of adverts where men underdressed men are featured irrelevantly, if that's the point you're trying to make. I've also seen adverts where men as a sex were belittled (e.g., incompetent around the house, lousy at "multitasking", laddish in a pathetic way, a la Neil Morissey's Men Behaving Badly character, and so on). People should either acknowledge that this kind of thing cuts both ways, or they should shut up about it.

I don't think you have any idea what amount of abuse high-profile women - and even ordinary women not seeking any particular elevation - sometimes have to put up with. There have been various examples going around Twitter in the past few months with various hashtags. It's not trivial.

Oh, yeah. People like Louise Mesnch get a small fraction of the of flak that male front line politicians get. Funnily enough, a lot of the flak that front line male politicians get is to do with their body weight, facial appearance, hair or lack of it, dress sense or lack of it, speaking voice, etc., rather than their policies or effectiviness in implementing those policies.

Alluring to whom?

Straight\bisexual Men and gay\bisexual women.

Why does she have to be alluring

because shes a model and hired to be alluring. she is hot. thats the whole point of booth babes.

its not sexist. at all. im sure they are fully capable of understanding what they do and why they are employed in such a role not to mention having the potential to be "incredibly smart and able to answer all the showgoers' questions" but thats not why she was hired.

And she knows that full well. ergo - any comments about her arse or any other part of her body cant be sexist.

eg:

Pwhoar! Look at the tits on that honey!! I want to chat to her!!!

a statement about her appearance expressed in a crude manner. ie shes doing her job and the comment isnt sexist. she is pulling in a crowd and earning her pay.

There's an interesting article about women portrayed in games in recent E3: Ladies of E3: The Good, The Same, and The Ridiculous.

As for this whole topic: Don't get involved in arguments about sexism in games