Should I Date a 7 or Hold Out for a 10?
This blog post elicited a fair amount of heat, and it covered a topic I dealt with recently in my free newsletter: the value of chasing white hot chemistry with a person whose looks are a “10″.
Now, before we get into that in great detail, I want to state 3 important disclaimers:
First, not every person who is a “10″ is damaged goods.
Second, not everyone agrees on what a “10″ is.
Third, people can be judged on things other than looks.
If a man or a woman is a 10, who is he/she going to most likely going to want to date? That’s right, another 10.
I say this, because these are the things that people invoke when discussing this – and it’s not like I’m not aware of them. However, the exception doesn’t disprove the rule.
“Rules” are rarely my opinions – more often, they are observations about how the world works. Women lie about their age. Men will not call after having sex. Smart, successful women will struggle to find equal partners.
I observe this frustrating reality and point out why it happens and what, if anything, you can do to counteract it. While I’m an emotional guy, my advice is based on logic and evidence. Generally, if you’re disagreeing with me, it’s because something I said hit you emotionally and rubs you the wrong way. That’s fair. It doesn’t negate the fact that my observations are just that – observations.
If I am to observe that a disproportionate number of “10′s” are: shallow, narcissistic, selfish, demanding, difficult, more likely to flirt, less likely to commit, and somewhat disconnected from the ‘average’ person’s reality, you might say, “Maybe…but I know this one girl who is gorgeous and sweet”. And you’d be right. It still doesn’t change that most 10′s are problematic partners.
So when I write “Stop chasing 10′s, marry the 7′s,” and my good friend Lance writes this reply:
Most hot girls are crazy, that’s for sure, but I wouldn’t advise anyone to date a 7. I say go for the 10 that’s awesome on the inside, too. They’re out there, you just have to look around and be the man that’s worthy enough to get with that gal. If you fall short, look in the mirror, and make the changes that make you attractive enough to land a 10/10.
Well, I’ve gotta disagree – vehemently – on a number of levels.
1) If a man or a woman is a 10, who is he/she going to most likely going to want to date? That’s right, another 10. Most men, in particular, don’t date “down”; they all want to date “up”.
2) If, as Lance says, you hold out for the 10′s…and every other woman holds out for the 10′s…but the male 10′s want the female 10′s…doesn’t that mean that pretty much every woman ends up not finding a partner? It’s like saying that everyone should hold out for a $500,000 salary because that’s what you’re WORTH. Well, if there’s only a few thousand of those jobs out there, there’s going to be a LOT of unemployment. That is, unless someone compromises – and finds a lower paying job (a 7) that has much better benefits and quality of life.
Related Posts:
- Are Women More Likely Than Men to Require Chemistry to Go On A Second Date?
- Can a Hot Woman Like Me Hold Out on Sex Until I Get a Commitment?
- He Said He Met Another Woman Before Our Big Date and I Don’t Believe Him.
- Should I Go on a Second Date With a Guy I Don’t Like to Get Practice and Attract More Men?
- (Video) How To Get a Second Date
 |
Why He Disappeared is the smart, strong, successful woman's guide to understanding men. If you want to learn how men think, and rediscover how to have meaningful relationships - all from a man's point of view - click here to learn Why He Disappeared. |
Do You Want to Attract the Partner of Your Dreams?
If so, sign up for my free dating and relationship newsletter and receive my free eBook, The 5 Massive Mistakes You're Making In Your Love Life - And How to Turn Them Around Instantly. Simple and effective advice to jumpstart your love life.
111 Comments »Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Favorites
Lance 1
LOL, can’t wait to respond to this one. I’ll blog a reply this afternoon. Cheers!
Lance´s last blog post…Stomp, Anniversaries, Obama, and Vacations
starthrower68 2
Evan you possess what so few poeple pay attention to, and that is wisdom. I have made acquaintences with 10′s – not dated, but been introduced, and sure, there are some very nice ones out there. But because society treats “pretty people” differently, they are groomed to think and behave certain ways. I’m not sure that being a guy who’s a 10 serially dating a string of 10′s is a very satisfying way to live. At some point I think we all long to put down roots and find that one person who we can grow old with. But again, that’s wisdom. I believe wisdom is making a decision today that you will be happy with down the road. We all have a lot of head knowledge but not a lot of wisdom.
Lance is going to be looking for that perfect woman for a very long time. I hope he can live up to the same standards that he’s holding her to.
Honey 3
Well, considering the amount of effort that Lance is willing to put into the relationship (no matter who it’s with) is a 5, I think that’s probably what he can ultimately expect!
SNAP! That’s right, I said it, Lance
Honey´s last blog post…Stomp, Anniversaries, Obama, and Vacations
Lance 4
@Honey: Haha, very funny.
@Starthrower: You’re making the assumption that I’m looking for a perfect woman, that I need a perfect woman to make my life somehow more complete and satisfying, and that the pinnacle of human relationship is an LTR or a “marriage.”
Lance´s last blog post…Stomp, Anniversaries, Obama, and Vacations
LK 5
Roughly speaking, I seem to instinctively place men into 3 categories when it comes to appearance/sex appeal/spark: C = “No way in hell”; B = “I can make this work”; A = “TAKE ME NOW PLEASE!”.
Obviously there are gradations within each category. And obviously this is subjective to *me*.
I think I generally find the As too intimidating. They’re fun to admire, but I can’t feel like myself around them.
I have always been pretty sure I will wind up with someone on the mid to upper end of the B range. I think that is the same as Evan’s 7.
I can’t date Cs because there is just zero possibility of chemistry. But Cs are probably not even half of my target demographic.
It’s not just based on appearance for me. It has a lot to do with how a guy carries himself and what kind of spark is in his eyes.
JuJu 6
Evan is describing the all-around alpha male, while there are also good(enough)-looking omegas (which probably automatically no longer qualifies them as omegas, but you get my drift). The latter is what I want for myself. A loving and devoted man whom I can imagine having sex with (preferably, indefinitely).
Alan Roger Currie 7
Good read Evan.
One of the reasons why I believe you have so many dating singles these days is because all of the men and women are pursuing 9s and 10s (to no avail).
Let’s say you put 2500 singles on an island. (1300 single women and 1200 single men) Let’s say that 10% of each group are “10s,” 10% are “9s”, 10% are “8s”, 15% are “7s”, 20% are “6s”, 20% are “5s,” 5% are “4s”, 4% are “3s”, 3% are “2s” and 3% are “1s”
If everyone, hypothetically, were to date ‘within their range,’ just about everyone would find a companion. But if you have 75-90% of the men chasing female “10s” and 65-75% of the women chasing male “9s and 10s,” then you’re going to have some ‘lucky’ people … but more so, a high degree of disappointed and even frustrated singles.
This is essentially what is going on right now in society….
Alan Roger Currie´s last blog post…The Secret Power of Single Women – May 22,2009
Carol 8
Evan,
You’re a genius! I totally agree! Especially in big cities (like L.A. where WE live) it’s soooooo easy to get drawn to the seemingly endless parade of “10′s” on every street corner – but I love how you point out how often these people are self-absorbed, spoiled, or underdeveloped in other CRUCIAL ways. It’s like people who become famous – after a few years of everyone kissing their “you-know-what” and bending over backwards to impress them/make them happy/get their attention, they can’t POSSIBLY be normal anymore, or understand what it’s like to be a mere mortal. This is what happens to 10′s (or the extremely rich – anyone who has that kind of power for some reason). They stop breathing the air the rest of us breathe, and the only way to succeed with them is on THEIR terms, which makes being happy with them in a “partnership” impossible. Thanks for trying to wake up the masses! You’re a gem!
M 9
It’s nice to see that other people struggle with this as well, but I just want to confirm what you are saying Evan, because I think its important. 1) speaking as someone who has gotten the 10′s all her life, this “7″ relationship is FAR better than any of those other relationships, which is why I had the pause to begin with and 2) when I listened to you, and made that decision to invest in what I had with this person the relationship, and the passion, only got better. It continues to grow from the 7 because of how great everything else is. It really was good advice, and I thank you for telling me what no-one else either had the nerve to point out, or just didn’t understand.
JuJu 10
Oh, and one other thing no one has mentioned yet, but everyone probably knows: the beautiful ones aren’t good in bed. Since they have no incentive to try to please their partners.
Maybe (maybe) it’s less of a problem for men, who can just get off on someone’s looks, but it doesn’t entirely work that way with me.
alicia 11
Thanks for this post. I am sending it to ALL my single friends, male and female!!
starthrower68 12
Lance, I responded to Evan’s mention of you in his post. I agree that we don’t need another person to complete us. And I’m sure for some, marriage is not the ultimate relationship. If that’s how you roll, more power to ya. It’s obvious my set of values are a bit different, but I’m not sitting around pining for a spouse. But I believe our relationships, be they romantic or non-romantic are the only thing we’ll take with us. I guess if being a serial dater allows one to have the ability to make a positive impact in the life of others, then by all means. It just seems like a series of “losses” to me.
Sara 13
I don’t understand people who think this way. I have met guys I initially felt extremely attracted to, but after talking to them for 10 minutes, my attraction waned to zero. I have also met guys I only felt a flicker of attraction for initially that I eventually (or shortly thereafter!) became extremely attracted. People don’t fall into, and then stay in, little categories like that.
People dating online can’t help but assign numerical values to things like “long-term compatibility” and “physical attractiveness” because you can’t decide if you’re really attracted to someone until you’re with them in person. You can only guess. This kind of thinking just seems so simplistic and pointless to me because it assumes everyone is attracted to the same thing. If you disagree, then just ask a group of men and women whether they think Sarah Jessica Parker is attractive. There will be people arguing vehemently on both sides.
The Mike 14
If you hold out for a “10″, you will be lonely! Also, a “7″ will work harder and appreciate it.
Ric 15
Evan,
An excellent and provocative post.
Physical beauty fades and only brings so much to a relationship. Intellect, Caring, Independence and other values add points for me.
Ric
Paul 16
I find myself caught in that trap all the time, looking for the absolute best looking women I can find. And I did. And we hit it off. And guess what…I can barely get her to go out with me…still wants to play the field. So I am vowing to go out with some women that I ordinarily wouldn’t. We’ll see how it goes, but I’m afraid I’ll be with them, thinking I could do better. I guess if your really hitting it off and you have that elusive “connection”, her looks and size of breasts and all that other stuff men select for becomes really insignificant. I’m in communication with a few7′s now and it seems like we get along well and I don’t have to try as hard to be liked or impress them, and the pressure is not totally on me for the success of the relationship and some of it is on them. that’s a good thing. It seems to be more equal. It is funny that JuJu said that the 10′s are the lousiest lovers…some of the best times I ever had in bed were with a really homely gals. I’m 50, and a 6 who thinks he’s a 8 btw, so the sex thing is not quite as important…been there, done that, have proven myself. I did want to ask JuJu though if women have to be able to imagine themselves having sex with someone in order to be attracted to them? I thought that was an interesting comment.
Steve 17
However, the exception doesn’t disprove the rule.
Amen. I find myself in that kind of argument all of the time with people.
Generally, if you’re disagreeing with me, it’s because something I said hit you emotionally and rubs you the wrong way. That’s fair. It doesn’t negate the fact that my observations are just that – observations.
Yep, those arguments I find myself in boil down to people being offended by reality and trying to argue reality into being different….instead of dealing with it the way that it is.
Steve 18
IMHO, 7s, 8s and 9s can be quite attractive, great in bed and awesome company.
I think some people who push aside a good thing to insist upon a 10 have ego/self worth/narcissistic issues.
Steve 19
@Juju, comment #6.
I was never in a fraternity so I am NOT sure I am right, but I think omega is the greek ‘z’. You may indeed be able to get yourself an alpha male, but if you can’t , based on your comments, I think you can settle for higher than an omega, the absolute bottom
.
Steve 20
Ack, comment number @18 looks like it could be a slam — not my intent — I was speaking in general.
Karl R 21
Lance said: (#4)
“You’re making the assumption that I’m looking for a perfect woman,”
Lance said: (in another thread)
“I wouldn’t advise anyone to date a 7. I say go for the 10 that’s awesome on the inside, too. They’re out there, you just have to look around and be the man that’s worthy enough to get with that gal.”
I think starthrower68 made the (obvious) assumption that you were following your own advice.
Just to be clear, you recommend that other people only pursue people who are 10s (on the outside and inside), but you don’t bother pursuing those 10s yourself?
Lance said: (#4)
“You’re making the assumption [...] that the pinnacle of human relationship is an LTR or a marriage.”
I think starthrower68 made the (obvious) assumption that people only seek perfection (and reject 7s) if they’re looking for a long-term relationship. If I’m just looking for some fun, I can pick up the 7 tonight (or a 3 tonight) … and it won’t get in the way of me picking up a 10 (or a 7) tomorrow. There’s no need to be picky.
I’m really missing the point behind your advice … unless you’re just trying extra-hard to play the devil’s advocate.
Joe Basile 22
Everybody thinks there a 10. And “10″ subject to taste. So, should you hold out for a ten? One person’s 7 is another’s 10….
sjz 23
Wow,
I thought that 7′s were up there on the dating scale! So what do 1-6′s do when they want to date? Hang it up and move to a desert island and hope the monkeys will date them? I find all this numerical numbering of people based on their looks to be sooooooooooo sad. Even tho its reality, it seems to me that there really isn’t that much of a difference between a 7 and a 10, especially when it comes to personal preference. I am so glad everyone on here thinks they can date ONLY a 7. Get real people!
JuJu 24
Paul said: So I am vowing to go out with some women that I ordinarily wouldn’t.
Here is what I would like to know: you wouldn’t normally go out with those women because YOU don’t find them attractive, or purely because they are not 10′s?
As for your question – I personally am not able to imagine during sex that I am with someone else (heh, wouldn’t that solve all the problems of dating quite nicely), and I also realize that one’s enjoyment of sex doesn’t only result from what their partner is doing to pleasure them, but from the fact of the mere excitement of being with this particular person. Probably even more so the latter than the former.
I am certainly not one to downplay the importance of physical attraction: I probably mentioned more than once already on these boards that I had a husband after only five years with whom I no longer wanted sex with him (which is not to say I no longer wanted sex). No matter what he did to me, it just didn’t turn me on. That was what made me conclude that if I want to start a long-term partnership with someone (not sure I believe in the possibility of a lifetime one) and especially start a family, I have to do it with someone who is more my type to begin with.
Moreover, at some point I became very aware of the fact that I didn’t want children WITH HIM.
Granted, no one will excite you indefinitely, but five years is really nothing – I heard of people still wanting sex with each other after 20 years of marriage, or more. But then, my ex-husband was only a five or a six when we first started dating, and got progressively less attractive as he started losing hair.
Funny: I was 10 years younger (so, supposedly conventionally more desirable, right?) and yet at this point I wouldn’t consider even going on a date with someone like him, let alone and dating such a prospect exclusively or marrying that man.
Btw, does age figure into one’s “grade”? That 10 you mention – is she in your age group?
JuJu 25
Steve,
I was referring to the alphas and the omegas of the animal world.
(Wikipedia article )
After all, there is no such terminology in existence as “mu” or “nu”. =)
However, as my question to Paul implied, what is most important to me is whether I find the man attractive. I couldn’t care less how he is perceived by others (an alpha trait, btw). And for me to find someone attractive he doesn’t have to be a conventional 10 (besides, I have a very specific type).
Selena 26
So many of us believe the grading scale is completely subjective. What I wonder is if the “7′s” in LA would be considered “10″‘s elsewhere in our vast country?
The smaller the pond….
Selena 27
Re: Sara #13
Good example with Sarah Jessica Parker for debating how subjective attractiveness is. People can (and do) discuss celebrities this way without universal agreement.
How about Nicholas Cage? Tori Spelling?
And the maybe the longest running attractiveness debate: Ginger? Or MaryAnn?
Curly Girl 28
While we’re on the subject of attractiveness, I give Evan’s hair on the show a 10 because it is curly and natural. Though it looks good blown out, too. It’s nice to have options.
I agree that the math in this thread is weird. Alan, how could everybody end up evenly matched if you have 1300 women and 1200 men? Or are you throwing some lesbians into the mix?
How come there are no gay people speaking up on this board?
I think that gay men would like Evan’s hair on TV, too, but not because it’s gay. Just because it looks good. Any gay men want to comment?
Curly Girl 29
SJP is very skinny (maybe unnatural) and has curly hair (natural). I used to date a guy (only briefly) who harumphed when I said in an off-hand way that all of the women on SATC were attractive. He used to criticize the way women on TV/in the movies looked ALL THE TIME. It was such a turn-off. Like, a major, major turn-off. I’m pretty cute, but not as cute as the SATC women (maybe if I had a stylist). This guy? Humongous gut and braces. (Also a turn-off, but I give people a chance.)
My point: Want what you want, but it doesn’t mean you’re going to get it.
Alan Roger Currie 30
@Curly Girl…
I never said that the “math” would end up with people matching up evenly….
There are always going to be men who want at least TWO partners….
Alan Roger Currie´s last blog post…Lots of Sex Talk on "Upfront & Straightforward with Alan Roger Currie"
sjz 31
Did anyone see the “Science of Sex”on TLC last week? They numbered 10 women and 10 men’s foreheads with a number from 1-10. You didn’t know the number on your forehead but, the other person did. It was funny to see all the high numbers trying to find a high number and all the low numbers also trying to find a high number. In the end (if I remember correctly) everyone ended up pretty evenly matched. A great experiment that probably reflects reality.
Honey 32
I think there are a couple of faulty assumptions going on in this thread. The first is that these “7′s” know they are sevens (when as Evan and others have said everyone thinks they are a 10) and the second is that these 7′s know you are “dating down” by not going for a 10 yourself.
I think many 7′s are just as flaky because even though they can’t, they think they can just dump you (you’re a 7, too, after all) and go for a 10 as well.
I am sure the BF and I are both 7s at best in the looks department (I have super curly hair which those who brought up SJP as an example of something that is not everyone’s style…and I am not NEARLY as skinny as she is…the BF is about 5’7″ which probably bumps him way down on most women’s scales) but we share VALUES (and hard to come by values at that…atheism, vegetarianism, no desire for children, etc.) and that is why we are a good match.
Honey´s last blog post…Stomp, Anniversaries, Obama, and Vacations
A-L 33
Let me just say upfront that I agree with Evan’s post, and I also find it interesting how much less contentious this thread is than the other one was.
But SJZ brings up an interesting point in #23. How is this rating system working? I’ve assumed that a 5 is average, and a person’s number goes up or down depending on how more (or less) attractive they are than the average. I’ve also assumed there’s something of a bell curve effect, with that vast majority of people in the 4-6 range, a smaller number in the 7-8s & 2-3s, and an even smaller number of 9-10s and 1s. For example:
9-10: 5%
7-8: 20%
4-6: 55%
2-3: 15
1: 5%
By my generous estimation, 75% of the population is below a 7. How likely is it that a 4, much less a 2, can actually get that 7? Perhaps the Joey from Friends theory that you can only date someone within two levels of you has some merit. Or the one I like better, Lk’s idea (#5) of “I can make this work.” Basically, the idea of a 7 as someone that you find pleasurably beddable (sp?) regardless of their actual numerical rank.
Alan Roger Currie 34
I know everyone’s criteria for what makes a man or woman a “10″ or a “7″ or a “5″ or a “2″ is different, but I will offer mine:
“10″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than 99.9% of the women I’ve been exposed to; This woman draws attention from just about every man she meets;
“9″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than roughly 90% of the women I’ve been exposed to and/or this woman tends to draw attention from approximately 9 out of ever ten [single] men she meets
“8″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than roughly 80% of the women I’ve been exposed to and/or this woman tends to draw attention from approximately 8 out of ever ten [single] men she meets
“7″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than roughly 70% of the women I’ve been exposed to and/or this woman tends to draw attention from approximately 7 out of ever ten [single] men she meets
“6″ – A woman whose physical appearance is generally considered “average” to “slightly-above-average” compared to the women I’ve been exposed to; She tends to receive an “average” amount of attention from single men.
“5″ – A woman whose physical appearance is generally considered “average” to “slightly-below-average” compared to the women I’ve been exposed; She generally tends receive an ‘average’ amount of attention from single men
“4″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than roughly 40% of the women I’ve been exposed to; She probably receives a less-than-average amount of attention from men
“3″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than only 30% of the women I’ve been exposed to; This woman is not really considered “attractive” and/or “romantically appealing” by too many men
“2″ – A woman who is generally considered more physically attractive than roughly 20% of the women I’ve been exposed; Nine times out of ten, this woman has a hard time attracting attention from men
“1″ – A woman who is considered by many to simply be “unattractive” (physically) and/or “very unappealing” (non-physical attributes); This woman will probably remain single indefinitely unless something about her physical characteristics change/improve and/or something about her personality/behavior/attitude changes and improves
My thoughts and $0.02
Alan Roger Currie´s last blog post…Lots of Sex Talk on "Upfront & Straightforward with Alan Roger Currie"
Lance 35
I have a couple of points: Firstly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I consider a 10 in looks could be a 6 to the next guy. I think skinny chicks with small boobs are hot, but my roommate thinks they’re not. It’s silly to assign numbers.
Secondly, settling for a “7″ makes the assumption that all or most sevens are exceptional people on the inside. They’re not. Most people are mediocre, boring, undeveloped…that’s why it’s called average. You’re going to have a different set of problems with the 7′s vs. the 10′s, but it’s still problems. I’ve dated plenty of fucked up 7s for sure.
I prefer to hold out for the 10 person, or at least the person that has the potential to become a 10 (not necessarily in looks), because I work my ass off to be better than average and I hope one of these days I can earn that exceptional partner. It’s that simple.
I think Evan and I agree here, we’re just saying it in different ways.
Lance´s last blog post…Downgrade Your Relationship to Upgrade Your Sex Life
Cilla 36
@ sjz
I saw that show and also found it interesting, especially when they put mics on the participants and let us hear what they were thinking (e.g. “Oh, no, the hot guy is taken and now I’m stuck with the 3″). Definitely interesting to see how everyone goes for the most attractive person they can find, but nature eventually winds up pairing like with like.
@ Honey
I don’t think everyone really thinks they are a 10, they just aspire to mate with one. I know I’m not a 10, in the eyes of the general public, because if I were, I’d be working as a model or an actress. The same holds true for Evan and his wife, cute as they are–if they were 10s, they would likely be in different professions.
I’m short, not skinny (just curvy, and not curvy as a euphemism for fat), and in my 40′s. In the eyes of a small select population, I might be a 10, but I suspect most of the world would see me as a 6-8, depending on whether I’m in Hollywood or somewhere less exacting about appearance.
The idea, which I think others have pointed out, is that beauty is *somewhat* within the eye of the beholder (e.g. a 3 to the general public may be a 6 to the woman who loves short men with long beards). I know I look at some men who are considered 10s by the media, and I think they look bland or baby faced–not 10s to me. I agree with the posters who say find someone who is the best suited to you as a whole package: looks; personality; goals; sexual proclivities; etc. It seems like the couples who are the happiest feel like a 10 in the eyes of their mates, and that’s really what it’s all about.
starthrower68 37
In a perfect world, we would all date completely based on values; I do agree though that while someone doesn’t have to be a 10 to catch my eye, there does need to be something to get you to look twice. But I while I will admit to enjoying looking at a 10, that is not someone I’m likely to try and date.
Michael 38
As someone who thinks both Evan’s and Lance’s blogs are excellent, and without nitpicking a rating scale or commenting on the personality flaws a “looks 10″ might have developed, I will say that one basic disconnect here is the skills (aka “game”) and drive of the one who’s “10 hunting.” It IS possible for a guy who’s a 5 to transform himself into a 7 or 8 and then date a 9 or 10. I’ve seen it. I’ve done it.
But it’s work. Hard work. It requires acquisition of social skills and experience, perhaps work in the gym, advanced grooming and hygiene, and more importantly the willingness to fail and ability to learn from those failures. Most guys can’t or won’t do all that, and you can’t just BE a 5 and hope a 10 will fall in your lap.
And even then, sheer statistics say that most people won’t end up in a LTR with 10s, or 9s, or 8s for that matter. There just aren’t enough to go around. So for the vast majority of guys (or girls), “holding out” for a 10 would simply be an exercise in frustration and sadness.
But this is all by the by, because as others have said in different ways, I don’t believe most of us are really seeking a “looks 10.” When our egos are out of the way, we’re seeking “makes me feel good.”
Michael´s last blog post…Two truths and a lie
Evan Marc Katz 39
The folly, Michael, is not about men overestimating themselves or not having enough “game”. The folly is that men chase 10′s but don’t consider the considerable downsides and character flaws that accompany dating one. Caveat emptor.
Michael 40
Agreed that the 10s are at risk for personality issues, in much the same way rock stars and actors are. All too often, being superior at one thing means being deficient in another. How many times on The Actors Studio do the guests have to talk to James Lipton about their broken homes?
Also, across the looks spectrum, similar flaws exist – it’s just much easier to dismiss a 6 or 7 when she has the same problem that a guy would try to “overcome” in a 10. In that respect, the “character flaw” may be in the pursuer.
Good discussion, Evan.
Michael´s last blog post…Two truths and a lie
Melissa 41
Evan said: “You want to spend 30 years on eggshells because the hot guy or girl is being selfish or doesn’t let you know where you stand? Go ahead.”
Man that line hits home for me and sums up SEVERAL of my most recent relationships.
Thanks again for helping the “the light”.
Allen Voivod 42
I agree with many of your commentors that this is a fabulous discussion, and I think that I generally agree with you, Evan. You’re essentially positing a solid rule of thumb that any person can start from, and make course corrections as needed…except that it’s so damn linear!
You just flagged the Esquire article by A.J. Jacobs on brain chemistry related to love, and then there’s the psychological school of thought which says we’re all trying to re-create our familes, except that we try to fix the things we didn’t like about them. That’s just two examples of things which factor in on who we pursue as partners, and they’re so NOT related to a 1-10 scale that we might as well start comparing romance to string theory.
Stick to your guns, Ev. You’re on the right track.
Best,
Allen
Ravit 43
This was fascinating!
Rani 44
I’ve been trying to put my finger on why the ‘settle’ for a 7 discussion rubs me the wrong way. Because it makes sense, and really there’s nothing wrong with being a 7 in the looks department (which is reasonably subjective).
But what bugs is that who wants to be with someone who doesn’t think they are hot/attractive/sexy/beautiful/handsome? My personal fear is that I’m with some guy (who probably isn’t an objective 9 or 10 or even 8 himself), who likes, or even loves, the ‘inside’ me, and the sex is good, but is unsatisfied with me because I’m not a 10. It’s particularly galling when the guy himself isn’t a 10 in any category.
This may be my issue, since I do sometimes feel like this in my current relationship. He’s never said anything negative about my looks, and usually tells me I’m pretty etc. But he’s a very visual guy with a colorful history, and I’ve never been truly confident in my appearance.
Who wants to be the person someone else ‘settles’ for? Sure, it’s not really settling, it’s being realistic and compromising, but it’s not exactly flattering.
Steve 45
I am one of those people who happens to think SJP is hot and part of me doesn’t think that is “subjective”. I honestly can’t fathom why there are people who do not appreciate her looks.
I feel the same way about long curly or wavy hair. Who needs viagra?
sjz 46
The numbering system is particularly used in online dating. A picture sometimes can be worth a thousand words. Of course the words go missing when one thinks they are meeting a 10 in person and that person is now a 5 because the picture is 10 years old! But, that is another subject! People can also move from lower to higher numbers in their lifetimes. I know I was probably a 5 as a teen but now in the world of 50 year old woman I am probably an 8. Sometimes there is justice in this world! The problem is that guys that used to be 8 or 9′s are now 5′s. Taking care of yourself really pays off. As they say you are born with the face you inherit but you die with the face you deserve!
Kenley 47
Rani,
I agree with you. It just doesn’t feel good to be with someone who doesn’t think you are attractive. However, in my personal experience, I have projected my own feelings about myself onto others. So, when I didn’t feel attractive, I just couldn’t understand how my boyfriend could find me attractive. Once I told him how I felt about myself and I just couldn’t figure out why he liked so and he told me what he liked. And, I can’t tell you how stunned I was to hear him describe how he felt about my physical appearance. He thought I was special and perfect for him. I think that’s the way we want to feel about our boyfriends and that’s the way we want them to feel about us.
For the most part, it seems that the women who write on this blog are supremely confident about themselves on all levels. However, the world we live in makes it very hard for lots of women to feel that they measure up to the standard of beauty we think all men want. And in some ways, I think that these blog does reinforce the idea that because most of us aren’t 10′s, people who chose use are settling and when we chose guys we have to settle too. But the guys I have been happiest with — in spite of my own insecurities — are the ones who think I am a 10 for them — even if the rest of the world would adamantly disagree!
Monique 48
Evan -
I really get what you are saying here and would like to add this…
Getting into a relationship is the opportunity to make the relationship a “10″. We can as a result of how we feel about our partner create a mindset that says they are a “10″ in our eyes and heart and then lo and behold it is so.
Stop chasing 10′s and turn your 7 into a 10 level relationship. Isn’t it the relationship we are after anyway?
Monique
Cilla 49
@ Rani
I agree, and I was trying to get at that at the end of my last comment (#36). I’ve been with men who were probably about the same looks-wise as me, but who thought they could always do better (“I should be dating supermodels,” one of them had the nerve to say). I know most men are visual, and they will always look at an attractive woman, as I will enjoy looking at a good looking man–I just don’t need to hear about it, as if I’m failing them somehow by not being a 10. It’s perpetuated in the media; I call it “According To Jim” Syndrome–dumpy, rude guy with hot wife. Men need to realize these matches are about as real as the luxury NY apartments TV characters inhabit on 50K a year.
Angela 50
And I agree with so many others when they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We may all agree that certain people are good looking, but whether they are an 8 or a 9 or a 10 can be debated. Also, many attractive people are constantly noticed and approached by others in some cases all their life. The personality dictates how they respond and feel about it.
I know some 9-10 folks that hate the attention and actually play down their looks.
Curly Girl 51
I am quite pleased with the way curly hair has been received on this thread.
Alan: I thought you said that on your mythical 1300/1200 island everyone would have a companion if they were realistic in their self-assessment and in that of prospective partners. I didn’t realize it was an island where there were extra women thrown in so that some men could have two, meaning some women would get only half a guy. If that’s the case, I suspect there would be some women who would opt out altogether rather than settle for half a guy. I don’t believe I’ve ever read anything from Evan advising that women settle for half a guy….half a guy is only a 5!
Curly Girl 52
And that’s if he’s a 10 to start with…I shudder to do the math on lesser men.
jessica 53
I’ve not read all these threads… but i don’t think the debate is between a 10 and a 7; I think it’s between a 7 and a 2-3. Most everyone, including me, would date a 7. 7 is pretty high up there – just no Taylor Kitch (if you haven’t seen this guy, he’s on Friday Night Lights and HE is a 10.)
But let’s face it, 10′s are hard to come by and they usually know they’re 10′s, which makes them a little “me” focused, which isn’t the most appealing trait.
The real question is: if a really fantastic guy is 3 – do you take the plunge????
Now that one I have grappled with. (I personally, have not been able to take plunge; and I honestly often wonder: am I missing out!?)
casualencounters.com/blog 54
It reminds me of the conversation the main character has with his pals in a bar in “A Beautiful Mind”–you’ll know the one I mean if you’ve seen the film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium for more.
casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…Weekly Roundup – Top 10 Casual Sex Links from Around the Web
Hopeful 55
10s? I’m aiming for a 13!
Karl R 56
Rani said: (#44)
“who wants to be with someone who doesn’t think they are hot/attractive/sexy/beautiful/handsome? My personal fear is that I’m with some guy [...], who likes, or even loves, the inside me, and the sex is good, but is unsatisfied with me because I’m not a 10.”
A little over a year ago I was dating a woman that I thought was amazing. (We broke up because she wanted lots of kids, and I didn’t want any.) Objectively, she might have been a four … but I have a hard time seeing her objectively. Subjectively, I saw her as a seven (in outward appearance). Inwardly, we were a terrific match (except for that one dealbreaker issue).
If she (unexpectedly) changed her mind about having kids, I’d take her back without hesitation. Compatability like that is hard to find.
Your fear is a separate issue from his (dis)satisfaction. Sure, if he’s dissatisfied because you’re not a 10, dump him and don’t look back. But base that decision on his dissatisfaction, not your fear.
At my age, most people have been in a lot of relationships. If I’m dating a woman who has dated 20 men, what are the odds that I’m the best looking, best in bed, tallest, strongest, smartest, funniest, nicest and most successful? I have the self-confidence to recognize that she’s not with any of those other men for a reason, even though I might not be the best in any single category.
Lance said: (#35)
“Secondly, settling for a 7? makes the assumption that all or most sevens are exceptional people on the inside.”
“I prefer to hold out for the 10 person, or at least the person that has the potential to become a 10 (not necessarily in looks), because I work my ass off to be better than average and I hope one of these days I can earn that exceptional partner. It’s that simple.”
Hypothetical Situation:
Let’s assume that 7s and 10s (on the outside) are exactly the same on the inside (on the average).
Alan Roger Currie is defiing 10s as being 1 in a thousand. 7s (or better) are closer to 1 in 3. So let’s say you (Lance) are holding out for someone who is a 10 on the outside and inside. I’m looking for someon who’s at least a 7 on the outside and a 10 on the inside. (And I agree that both our external and internal numbers are completely subjective; your 6 may be my 10 and vice versa.)
You and I start looking through all the available women in the city. You rule out 99.9% of them on looks, and then start searching through the 0.1% for inward 10s. Of those external 10s, you rule out another 99.9%. That means you’re searching for 1 woman in a million who is a 10 on the outside and inside. So in a major city, there may be 2 to 6 women like this … and some of them are likely to be taken already.
I’m willing to date a woman who’s a 7 externally, provided she’s a 10 internally. So I rule out 70% of the women on looks, then rule out 99.9% of the remainder based on their inward traits. So instead of 2-6 women in a major city, I could find 600-1,800 women who meet my criteria.
Not only do you need to find one of these rare “1 in a million” kind of women, you also need to be a “1 in a million” kind of man to stand a chance of keeping her. I can be just as picky regarding inward traits, but loosen up my external traits (to something that’s attractive but not super-hot). Not only are my chances of finding a suitable woman more than 100 times better, but I only need to be a “1 in ten thousand” kind of man to keep her.
I’m not assuming that 7s are any nicer than 10s (on the average). I’m just assuming there’s a lot more of them.
Evan Marc Katz 57
Karl,
You explain me better than I explain me. If you ever need a reference (or a job), you know where to come.
Best,
Evan
Selena 58
Rani wrote in # 44
“Who wants to be the person someone else settles for?”
Who thinks that way when they fall in love with someone? And I do mean fall in love, not some kind of business minded arrangement or attempt to buy “insurance” for having a relationship in old age.
When you are in love does it matter to you if your partner is a 5, 7, 10 on someone else’s scale? Does the concept of *scale* have any meaning to you at all then? Do the terms ‘settling’ or ‘compromising’ even enter your mind? Internal debates weighing chemistry vs. compatibility?
Hasn’t for me. And I suppose it’s why I find some of the debates on this blog a bit disturbing. The comparisons seem more likened to the stock market ( picking blue chip vs. growth vs. speculative) as opposed to actually finding someone you connect to and really fall in love with.
Karl R 59
Evan,
Thanks for the compliment. I’m happy with the job I currently have. But who knows, someday I might take you up on the reference. Those can always come in handy.
Lance 60
Good discussion.
@Karl: If I went on match and put in my normal parameters for height, weight, and age, I’d pull up maybe 100 chicks. I’d go out on first dates with probably 50 of them based on pics and profile. Of those 50 dates, I’d probably go out on multiple dates with something like 5-10 of those. So really we’re talking about 1 in 10, maybe 1 in 20, which is MUCH better odds than what you’re talking about (millions). Why? My standards for looks are different than what you think. I’m very much a realist and I’m not talking about holding out for Maxim models and actresses. I’m talking about real chicks who are merely super cute and smart. Those are plentiful in my city. I can look around and find plenty of chicks like who fit that profile in a half hour.
A bit of digression on looks, but I want to say a word about presentation. Almost all comely folks look 7-8, that is until you dress them up and improve the presentation. That 10 I saw in the club last night is merely a 7.5 when she’s walking her dog at 1:00 pm the next day. So, again, looks are malleable and assigning numbers is silly.
Lance´s last blog post…Man Breaks Up With Ex-Girlfriend, Claims It Was Too Much Hassle
Curly Girl 61
Thank you, Selena (#58)!
A-L 62
Karl
Your #56 is fantastic.
Lance
Two things. If you find half of the women on Match.com to be attractive enough to date (and you’re saying that you only want to date 10s) then I think you’re operating off of a totally different definition than most of the rest of the board. It sounds as though you define an attractive person as a 10, whereas I suspect many here are describing an attractive person as a 7, and a supermodel as a 10.
Secondly, why are most of these people not going past multiple dates? Presumably because you (or your date) found that there were some serious enough flaws in the other’s personality to not merit going further in the dating process. Which means that in no way is their personality a 10 (at least for you). How many women with “10″ personalities have you come across? And how many seemed good and then a few months in you see their psycho/witchy/whatever side and run for the hills? Perhaps the “10″ personalities are rarer than you think, particularly when combined with the 10s in appearance.
Joe 63
I think Monique has it right.
Hasn’t everyone known someone who they initially thought they would never be physically attracted to, but after getting to know them–platonically–it happened (or could happen)?
Selena 64
@Joe
It has for me.
Lance 65
@A-L: I said I’d go on 50 fifty first dates, didn’t say I’d go past that. Basically, yes, I’d go on exactly 1 date with an attractive girl just to find out if she was cool.
For point #2 it doesn’t have to be a personality “flaw,” simply an incompatibility or a difference in values. Perhaps she wants 2 kids within 5 years and I don’t Nothing wrong with that, it just doesn’t jive with me.
But yes, finding the 10 personality in a highly physically attractive person is pretty rare, which is exactly why I’m still single.
Lance´s last blog post…Work Your Ass Off and Get the 10′s
Cilla 66
“But yes, finding the 10 personality in a highly physically attractive person is pretty rare, which is exactly why I’m still single.”
But Lance, finding that person is only half the battle. She has to find you a double 10, as well…
Discrimination Against Dating a “10″ | DatingHeadshots Online Dating Blog 67
[...] Evan Marc Katz’s blog Should I Date a 7 or Hold Out for a 10? Evan wrote 10′s are shallow, narcissistic, selfish, demanding, difficult, more likely to [...]
hunter 68
Most female 10′s have long necks, as per entertainment industry standards.
Hot Alpha Female 69
I have to agree with Lance’s original comment. I understand what Evan is trying to say about compromise. I do. I get it.
There are so many unattractive men out there who are regularly dating beautiful women.
What would happen if they said to themselves … No I can only have women that are average looking.
You can have your cake and eat it too.
If you want the 10′s then go out there and get them. You can have exactly what you want.
Hot Alpha Female
Hot Alpha Female´s last blog post…mysqlerror
Cilla 70
@HAF #69
Funny, no one ever tells the unattractive women “if you want the 10′s then go out there and get them.” Hmmmm…
This kind of thinking, as Evan and his readers have pointed here and elsewhere on the blog, only skews an already unbalanced dating pool. If the unattractive or just average men all think they can have the 10 females (which I don’t think in most cases they can, unless they are wealthy), there will be precious few men left to pursue the average or unattractive women.
And why would a supermodel want to date an unattractive man when she can have a better looking alternative? While there are exceptions to this, it’s just not realistic for most people. All it does is tie up the available average guys while they spend their time looking for Miss Perfect. They spend 20 or more years doing this, and everybody winds up old and alone.
I personally think many women who fall in the 10 category get a perverse pleasure from having men of all levels of attractiveness fawning all over them, even if they would reject most of them in a heartbeat. It’s self-centered and egotistical, exactly the qualities Evan attributed to people who have been able to skate by on their looks and not develop other aspects of their personalities.
JuJu 71
Hmm, not that I am a 10, but I really, REALLY am not flattered by the attention I get from men of all levels of attractiveness. In fact, in some cases this attention is downright insulting.
A really mean thing to say, I guess, but I am a firm believer in not asking for what one can’t offer.
Cilla 72
@JuJu
I think there’s a difference between being flattered by that kind of attention and downright encouraging it, even if you have no intention of acting on it.
I would never consider it insulting to receive attention from any man based solely on his looks. Misguided perhaps, but not insulting.
hunter 73
Cilla, my unattractive female relative, married a male “10″.(she owns a flourishing construction company, not that she is his meal ticket, I would never admit to that) One reason I tell all men, “there are some gems in plain wrappers”.
ELLE 74
This is very very silly…because what is 10 for one person, for another might be only 7 and etc. And there is no need to say, “cos if you are not a model, then you can not be “10″. Just look at Kate Moss, to my opinion she is a bit of a minger…but to others-gorgeous…And you can have an amazing chemistry and attraction with people you might think ” I never would…”; e.g., i did not like blond men, until I met one that i did…
So, a completely useless argument.
Dan_Brodribb 75
I think this debate really comes down how much you value looks relative to other qualities. You could replace looks with “kindness 10s,” “Wealth 10s,” height 10s,” “cooking 10s” etc.
Some people value a 10 in looks to the point they aren’t bothered whether or not s/he has a personality. And that’s fine. That’s important to them. Some people find personality more important, others jobs, common interests, what their family thinks, etc.
As long as it’s what that person wants as opposed to what they try to convince themselves what they want or what other people tell them they should want, couples tend to find out what works for them and everything’s dandy.
Chris K 76
“It has a lot to do with how a guy carries himself and what kind of spark is in his eyes.”
It’s the same with how a man sees a women (though admittedly there’s usually more importance in appearance for men).
There is no such thing as a 10 – there is only someone that you think is a 10. Some of that you might be able to pin down (for most guys it’s somewhere between slim and voluptuous) but tastes vary. And more importantly, a women with a smile, self-confidence, intelligence and warmth will look more and more attractive as you see more of those attributes.
I’ve had women describe me as attractive (not all the time, but sometimes). Now, either not-especially-fit, balding guys are suddenly hot, or I’m getting a boost from my non-physical attributes.
But I know that muscles count too, which is one reason I’ve started working out.
Stever 77
I think there’s a fundamental distinction to be made about *why* you’re seeking a 10, or someone hot, in the first place. As Evan points out, bragging rights with friends or envy from strangers is sheer ego feeding. It’s your ego that seeks validation from those around you rather than from yourself. But your ego makes a crappy companion. Seeking a 10 to feed your own ego is ultimately self-defeating, whether you manage it or not. You end up, at best, in a relationship with someone who was attracted to an egotist. Ugly no matter what.
If you let your adult self go looking for partners, you’re free to choose between the people who make you feel good inside, not those who you think would impress your friends. With luck, there’s some considerable overlap. But by this level of maturity, you have probably seen the hidden 10 inside the one you love, regardless of what the rest of the world sees.
Heathen 78
Funny, the last guy I fell for, who was a ’10′ in my books, would probably be considered a ’4′ by other people’s standards. He just had that certain something I go for. I think I could legitimately call myself an ’8′ and I deliberately avoid ’9′s and ’10′s because I don’t want to be stressing out over other women, and attitudes, and feeling like I’m never quite good enough. Anyhow, I could NOT get this ’4′ guy to be interested in me! I was so bummed out about this that I have passed up quite a few ’7′s since then.
I will admit I’m picky, and I don’t find too many men to be my ‘type’, but I wanted to point out that pickiness isn’t always about looking for a ’10′. Also, in the pecking order of physical appearance, one’s higher ranking does not necessarily guarantee any measure of success with those of a lower ranking.
Sayanta 79
so- it’s interesting, a generalization that always seems to be taking place is that men are shallow, women are not, or, less so-
then this brilliant Esquire article comes out about women’s ‘secrets’- it made me cringe-
to all the guys out there- this is NOT how most normal, self-accepting, secure women think. I really wish they wouldn’t let celebrities speak for us.
http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/datingtips/88620/dating-tips-12-things-you-dont-know-about-women
PS- oh, except Christina Applegate- she’s right about that 3 day rule. Oh, and Courtney Cox- with the hand thing. LOL
hunter 80
Sayanta, the hands tip, is new to me.
tom 81
I see the opposite ptoblem quite honestly, where someone is an 8 or 9 on the important things but is often exchanged for someone who is a 5 on the important things -trust-honedty-witty-funny-warm-but the 5 has one big attribute-looks for men, money for women-and that one big attribute trumps all others. Then these are the people who can’t understand what’s missing from their lives. Women are just as guilty as men in this regard.
Terri 82
I don’t remember where I read this but it makes perfect sense to me:
I spent many years searching for the perfect women. But when I finally found her – alas, she was searching for the perfect man.
Terri 83
I don’t remember where I read this but it makes perfect sense to me:
I spent many years searching for the perfect woman. But when I finally found her – alas, she was searching for the perfect man.
Terra 84
I ask of those who search the 10– could you HANDLE being with a 10? Be careful what you ask for!
I routinely get asked if I am a model. My parents wouldn’t allow it; and then life just went on. ..
I married a 6 who started to go down from there… he was insecure and would try to put me down.
I have dated some men who were models. Evan is so spot on! The last relationship HE kept telling me he wished I was not so beautiful and would fly into a jealous rage if HE thought another man was staring at me. I would reassure him also that I had eyes only for him; he was my dream man in the looks department, being a gentleman, very wise, but also extremely insecure. He would brag about how many women would hit on him at work when we would have a bad argument.
Now that I am looking again, it is hard to not look for another 10… but finding one means that he is probably vain etc…. But if I find someone less attractive, they will need good self esteem to not feel that they are going to lose me to someone else more attractive… it’s not easy being on this end either….
Joe 85
The problem in dating a 10 is that many other people also want to date your 10.
Sara Malamud 86
I still don’t know what makes someone a 5 or a 10. A friend of mine was leaving her boyfriend because she didn’t think he was good enough..his answer was ” sweetie, what you see as canned-tuna others see as caviar”.
Julie 87
I generally write off guy 10s right away as eye candy but unlikely to have “game” when it comes to intelligence and conversation. Sometimes one will surprise me, but mostly they’re either talking to chicks who are prettier than me (fair enough) or they’ll just start talking and expose themselves as, well, idiots.
I’ll talk to anyone who’s not an idiot. If he’s smart, interesting, interested, polite, well-spoken, and not clingy, then he’s got a shot with me.
I’d have no problems dating a big guy who ate a basically healthy diet and wouldn’t blink at a 4 mile walk up and down an easy mountain trail. It’s not about the size, it’s about the habits.
Foxx 88
I will date a 5-7 anytime anyday. 10′s are boring. Who needs a eye candy with filthy attitude. I have never liked pretty boys and I am a pretty girl. I actually find that 10′s are always in competition with their 10′s girls. I’ve been past the looks for a very long time. I just would like if my man is neat, grooms himself properly, speaks well with a nice attitude and you are a keeper. And did someone say Nicholas Cage. yes my typical example of a 7 I will date. There is something appealing about underrated guys in the looks department who exude charisma, swageer and charisma.
Terri 89
“I spent my life looking for the perfect woman but alas, when I finally found her, she was searching for the perfect man.” Anonymous
Christel 90
Julie, you are so exactly right. My advice is to not even look at the 7-10s. Go out with the 1-5s. Find one with the same values as you who is kind, loving, affectionate, confident, is a hard worker, treats others well, has a positive attitude, a good kisser, who treats you like you are a ten even if you aren’t one. Treat him just as well as he treats you, and strive to be every bit as good of a person as he is. If you have sexual chemistry (Has NOTHING to do with looks. Trust me.) then soon those little things about his appearance that might have kept you from approaching him won’t even matter to you. Looks fade anyway.
I went out with any guy who asked me out and didn’t have any deal breakers (conflicting religious or political views, major differences in values, married, criminal record) at least once. If I didn’t absolutely hate him I’d go out with him at least two more times as long as he kept asking me. I found someone over a year ago, and I’ve never been happier. I know that objectively most women would not give him a second look, but to me he is a 10.
AndThatsWhyYoureSingle 91
My friend was dating a woman recently who he admits is way out of his league. At first, it was fun. But because she was so “hot” she was incredibly insecure and feared he was just using her for sex. So it became a constant chess game. She wanted him to prove how invested he was and not just with her for her looks. It got so annoying for him that he had to break up with her. I think a lot of men and women like the idea of dating someone “hot.” But when they get it, unless they’re “hot, too they aren’t prepared for what’s involved.
Yucca 92
I am 9 (a girl). if i were 4 inches taller, i would be 10. But i get a lot of options anyways. i was never into pretty boys/handsome men. I always liked confident, cocky, smart 7-th. the guy i am with now looks like Shrek. I am laughing how ugly and well “lived-in” he looks (drinking, poor dieting, etc amde its imact on originally good genes). And you know what, it doesnt matter at all to me. He is a MAN. He grabs my hair, commands me to do this and that for him….at certain moments (you know what i mean). and this all that matters.
Sonia 93
If I were going by Alan’s system, then I was a 5 a few years ago and have become a 4 since giving birth. And I only gained 10 pounds (I weigh 128 or so). Complaining seems kinda silly now, cuz I know I’m not gonna attract many guys since guys prefer looks, and it makes sense why my partner talks about other girls all the time: compared to me, they’re everywhere. Girls that are 7′s, 8′s, 9′s, and 10′s compared to who he gets at home.
But I’ll tell you what: life’s a lot simpler once you’ve decided to stop worrying about the opposite gender.
I don’t know why he’s settling for me if he yearns for other women, don’t know why he wants to marry me …but I’ll take it. When he’s ogling the other chicks, I’ll gently take our son aside and teach him that women are much more than their looks…
Damn, I’m probably gonna be a single mother. 
Miss Reality 94
Before I had my child at the age of 20 (I am now 26) I was definitely smokin’ hot. From the neck up I was a 10 and could compete with any supermodel. My body, though good, was perhaps a 7 (legs not super long, not enough curves in the right places). My then-husband was probably a 6-7 and I know he felt “grateful” to be with a woman “hotter” than he was. I have to admit that because I knew I was really, really hot and got tons of attention I was SUCH a rude, conceited BITCH that treated “lesser” people badly. During my pregnancy I developed moderate stretch marks (I only gained 25 lbs but my belly and breasts became HUGE). Over the next several years I gained an excessive amount of weight – 90 lbs!! Because of my insecurity over my weight I started to let myself go in other ways. While I was going down on the hotness scale, my ex was constantly hitting the gym and grooming himself better than ever. So while I became, like, a 5 (and only that because I had a pretty face) my ex became a solid 9. He began to exude alpha male confidence and became quite narcissistic due to all the positive attention he was now receiving. He became an absolute jack ass to people he now deemed “lesser”. Needless to say, he cheated on me with hot women he felt were more worthy of him than I was and then left me. The shock of divorce pushed me into high gear and I got myself back into great shape and began grooming myself again. And while I am very attractive again, pregnancy, weight gain, and age have taken their toll and I will never be as physically beautiful as I was a few years ago. But the experience of falling off my pedestal and being shunned because of my appearance has taught me humility and kindness and I am a MUCH more beautiful person on the inside, which I believe makes me a much better catch now than I ever was at my physical peak. Likewise, my ex is less of a catch now because of his attitude even though he is sexier than ever. I am now dating a man who, even at his physical best, is only a 5-6 BUT he is intelligent, great with my kids, kind, loyal and SANE. I am far happier with him than my sexy ex or any of the other fantastically sexy men I’ve dated since becoming hot again. I can’t speak for the men, but ladies, do yourselves a favor and give the less-than-stellar-looking dudes a shot … they are often MUCH better men, lovers, fathers, husbands, etc than the really pretty ones.
NonExist 95
Only issue I had with women 9-10′s i dated were that they were used to being put on a pedestal by men.
And since I did not do it there were all kinds of issues about why I did not bow to them like they were royalty. And then the usual she does not know why she is with me because she could do better mantra.
All I said was if that is the case then goodbye. Because I do not need the headache. Granted other men referred to these women as 9-10′s because my perspective is limited to whether or not I like how she looks even though I do understand comparative physical attractiveness.
I say just find someone who you are attracted to and who has other qualities you can accept and be happy with and take it from there.
Still-Looking 96
NonExist @95
You are guilty of stereotyping, but I agree! Hot looks coupled with a previously pampered lifestyle is an automatic turn-off to me.
Paragon 97
There is never going to be rigorous agreement on any kind of informal attractiveness metric, so the subjective discussions are missing the point.
Which is how realistic are our expectations at getting what we want?
And, if we are having trouble finding what we want, what are some of the systemic and/personal problems hindering our prospects.
Speaking as someone with an education in evolutionary biology(as well as zoology), I will only try to speak to some rather obvious(to someone with my education) systemic factors – namely, sexual conflict.
The fact is, males and females really *do* have conflicting reproductive agendas, courtesy of sexual evolution(females have lower reproductive potential, and thus compensate qualitatively by being more selective – conflicting with the high-rate, reproductive strategies of males).
This manifests as women who are vastly more ‘picky’ then men, so in systemic terms, the onus of being too selective falls upon the female sex(even where particular cases might not seem to render such an obvious conclusion).
So, it should be expected that in developed world populations where females have been accorded the greatest latitude of choice, and sexual freedom, that they would also exhibit more selectivity.
One, perhaps less than obvious consequence of this, is that, in such populations, women will be receptive to a much smaller population of ‘choice’ males(see the freakanomics online dating data, posted in another thread for an idea), than they might otherwise be.
And here’s where something interesting beings to happen with this whole rating system.
The more imbalanced the mating dynamic becomes, the more asymmetric – in terms of their distribution between the male and female populations – these rankings become.
So, it comes to a point where male ‘ratings’ are bottom heavy in distribution, while female ‘ratings’ are top heavy(meaning there are more female 7′s than male 7′s, by virtue of the fact that a female 7 has a greater probability of attracting a male 7, than the reverse).
And this is a very convenient way of self-reporting attractivess for females, where a short chubby, but otherwise cute female can still claim a high rating by her ability to reliably pull a tall athletic male with a six pack – even though she is *far* from his closest female equivalent, in terms of physical traits.
Conversely, an average male may be only able to reliably pull obese females, even though these are less representative of his closest female equivalents(again, fully weighting for variance in sexual dimorphism).
On the other hand, go to a third world population, and his closest male equivalent may be able to predictably pull females which resemble a 7 or even an 8, if we were to assign their value based on the value of local females with similar physical characteristics.
So, as you can see – these rating systems are very much a function of *local* mating system dynamics, and therefor, they will always be relative measures of other (random and deterministic)variables in the system.
One thing I have observed, is that the more freedom of choice females exercise in a population(due to a variety of factors, such as economic and political independence), the more such populations tend to disassortative mating(where the most obvious exceptions tend to be at extremes of attractiveness – where even the ugliest females are relegated to ugly males, and where the most attractive males are content with the most attractive females – who are more abundant than themselves).
I think a legitimate greivance of many western males, is that for those who are not a 9 or 10(or a 1 or 2), the mating system seems hopelessly disassortative(ie. it becomes almost a lottery in order to find a receptive female equivalent, in terms of physical characteristics).
To these men, it would almost screams an ultimatum – go fat or go home(which, I’m sure would suit many western women just fine, freeing them to waddle after their ‘choice’ athletic hunks).
But, I would opt to perservere – with a bit of lateral(literally!) thinking.
International dating is an option to consider for those men who are tired of beating their head against a brick wall, locally, and wish to avail themselves of an option few western females have – which is to improve their prospects by searching abroad(something that is difficult for most western females to improve upon elsewhere, given that the more freedoms accorded them, the more advantageous the local mating dynamic – and there is no where they are accorded more liberties, than NA and western Europe).
The world is a big place – and opportunities are *always* going to vary locally.
So, love may be out there waiting – if we want to find it badly enough.
M 98
I find myself extremely uncomfortable with this constant talk about our fellow human beings ranking somewhere from 1 to 10. I find the idea of labeling someone else a 1 or a 2 repugnant. First of all it’s incredibly disrespectful and hurtful. And second, who the heck am I to hang a number on someone else?
Is a homeless man down at the mission a 1? No, he’s a person who for a variety of reasons has had difficulties, and he needs sympathy and help, not ridicule. Is a 400 pound woman a 1? No, she’s a person who for a variety of reasons is struggling with her weight, and she needs understanding and help from an educated counselor.
When we belittle or downgrade others for whom life has not gone well, we should remember and try to picture that there was a day that person came into this world into the arms of a mother who dearly loved him or her.
Evan Marc Katz 99
It’s shorthand, M. If you want to be so pollyanna-ish to state that all people are equally dateable and desirable, that’s fine, but in the reality-based community, we do discriminate. There’s nothing wrong with a person passing up on someone because of the fact that he’s homeless or the fact that she’s 400 lbs. Nothing. Doesn’t mean they’re bad people. Doesn’t mean they don’t deserve sympathy. Also doesn’t mean that I want a 400lb homeless woman as my wife. If you can’t see the distinction, if you’re truly that sensitive, you will find that we reality-based people sound very cruel. Sorry about that, but this might not be the right blog for you. I value truth over sensitivity because not enough people speak truth.
Selena 100
Shorthand it may be – but along with in/out of “your league” it has always come across as very juvenile to me. One would think educated adults might construct a “shorthand” that doesn’t make them sound like high school juniors.
Evan Marc Katz 101
Okay, Selena. Provide one for us. Show us juveniles how to rate or evaluate strangers by comparison without this shorthand. Or is it impossible to make subjective evaluations based on physical traits?
Selena 102
That’s just it Evan – attractiveness is soo subjective it can’t be rated on a 1-10 scale- meaningless to try. This thread, this old thread illustrates the point well.
Evan Marc Katz 103
It’s really not that subjective, Selena. Babies can tell attractive people from unattractive people. I appreciate your sentiment but think it’s disingenuous to be so PC.
Selena 104
Babies don’t rate on attractiveness on a 1-10 scale. Babies also seem pretty adaptable to anyone who shows them attention and affection regardless of what they subjectively look like.
Evan Marc Katz 105
Here ya go, Selena.
Babies don’t rate people on attractiveness because they can’t speak. That doesn’t mean that some people aren’t more objectively attractive than others.
Selena 106
I’m not debating each of us find some people more attractive than others Evan. It’s the 1 to 10 scaling I find juvenile and imprecise enough to be worthless.
Selena 107
Adding: I saw a documentary several years ago where scientists tried to measure what we consider beauty in female faces. The conclusion seemed to be wide spaced eyes, full lips, small proportionate nose. They did mathmatical calculations and showed pictures of Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, and Halle Barry all having the same facial proportions. Three objectively (?) beautiful women one wouldn’t think looked alike, but mathmatically they do. Very interesting.
sienna 108
Yes…and Giselle is also considered one of the most beautiful women in the world…she certainly doesn’t have wide spaced eyes or a small, proportionate nose but, somehow, despite lacking these characteristics she’s married to Tom Brady, as well as being the highest paid model, well, ever.
As for Lance…he’d be lucky to score a 7. If he becomes rich, he’s got a good shot at landing a 10 in the looks department, but a 10 inside? Forget it. The thing that guys like this don’t understand is that the woman who’s a 10 on the inside sees right through them. A 10 inside is looking for a guy who doesn’t care whether she’s a 10 outside or a 6. She will know within 5 seconds of talking to you how shallow and ‘un-10 like’ you are on the inside.
Finally-this whole idea that women who are attractive don’t have good personalities is ridiculous. I know someone who most guys would think is a 10, and while she may be a bit vain, that doesn’t make her a bad person. She’s still a loving, loyal friend and committed to her boyfriend whom she treats very kindly. (And yes, he’s a 10 in the looks department too).
Paragon 109
@ Selena
First of all, physical attractiveness isn’t as subjective as you might suppose(and yes, there are studies to support that even infants react more positively to individuals who display reliable indications of physical attractiveness).
And this makes sense, when you consider that all humans are subject to sensory biases(which become fixed by evolutionary success), where relative deviations in physical traits can reliably signal developmental incompetence(such as deviation in bilateral symmetry, as well as other indications of developmental/immuno incompetence).
@ Sienna
“The thing that guys like this don’t understand is that the woman who’s a 10 on the inside sees right through them.”
This assumes he is hindered by a concern for whether a woman is a ’10′ on the ‘inside’(which means exactly what, again?).
“ A 10 inside is looking for a guy who doesn’t care whether she’s a 10 outside or a 6.”
Then she is deluded, as no such person exists.
And without lending assumptions to testable predictions, any conclusions following from them would be unjustified.
But, tell me, would such a hypothetical woman grant her prospective mate the same consideration?
”She will know within 5 seconds of talking to you how shallow and ‘un-10 like’ you are on the inside.”
Assuming his online discourse is consistent with offline discourse, which is not necessarily a warranted assumption.
“ Finally-this whole idea that women who are attractive don’t have good personalities is ridiculous. ”
Depends on how you define ‘good’(where, from the perspective of an courting male, ‘good’ may depend on her being receptive to his courtship).
Selena 110
@Paragon #109
I’ve seen studies where human perception of beauty is based on symmetry of features. (See my post #107) And yes, babies recognize such symmetry.
Human perception of attractiveness in individuals still varies though upon the person doing the evaluating. Especially when it comes to attempting to rate attractiveness on a 1 to 10 scale. Is Sarah Jessica Parker beautiful, or is she average? Or even less attractive? Who looks better: Angelina Jolie, or Jennifer Anniston? You will get different answers depending on who you ask. That’s why attractiveness is subjective and scaling virtually meaningless.
Paragon 111
Bilateral symmetry is only one component of physical attractivess – which goes far beyond that(as I alluded to).
And yes, every measurable phenomenon varies, but that doesn’t mean that we cannot observe predictable patterns.
Women, in particular, tend to betray very predictable patterns in demonstrating a near universal preference for a very narrow range of male physical characteristics.
And this is why the gradations in attractiveness can seem subtle from a female perspective – since women tend to fixate on the top ~ %10-20 of males(see freakanomics data), considering the bottom %80 of males as, inexplicably, *less* than average(see OK Cupid data), the variance in that top %10-20 tends to split a lot of trivial hairs(making the differences harder to quantify, with respect to an attractiveness ranking system).
And while on a higher level, we seem to regard attractiveness in very binary terms(yes, or no), *everyone* is still invested in maximizing the physical attractiveness of their mating prospects.
The big difference between women and men, in this regard, is that men are *far* more inclined to settle on the best they can get(while the whole prospect of ‘settling’ is increasingly absent from the psyche of western females – many of whom would rather opt for solitude than compromise on what they feel is their ‘due’, however unrealistic or unlikely) – by making realistic trade-offs(like trading off mate attractiveness for mate availability, or mating frequency – which is why we can observe that men are more forgiving of relative attractiveness, than are women when culling males).