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A Response To My Opponents -- Enough With The Gay Stories
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George Morgan
5/11/97
Other recipients:
1.  I do read the material in this group. 2.  I am beginning to find material that I do not find offensive. 3.  I understand that my stance against the gay stories is objectionable to many people in this newsgroup. 4.  I want those people to understa

1.  I do read the material in this group.
2.  I am beginning to find material that I do not find offensive.  
3.  I understand that my stance against the gay stories is objectionable to
many people in this newsgroup.
4.  I want those people to understand that I find gay stories equally
offensive to me.
5.  I am posting my own story in this newsgroup.
6.  I have spoken my last word on this subject, but I have no doubt that
others will revive the argument.
7.  I thank all my friends and flamers for trying to educate me.  Some of
it took, and some of it did not.
8.  I look forward to reading your stories, and expect to bail out of many
of them.
George D. Morgan

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Susannah Mandel
5/11/97
Other recipients:
George Morgan (pata...@evansville.net) wrote: : 1.  I do read the material in this group.

George Morgan (pata...@evansville.net) wrote:
: 1.  I do read the material in this group.
: 2.  I am beginning to find material that I do not find offensive.  
this is part of the problem, right here: you obviously didn't look very
_hard_ before you started complaining that "all the stories were gay."
that means you were complaining -- and, on some levels, insulting people
-- over a claim that wasn't even true.
          that's one reason pople had a hard time believing that you were
objecting to a purported lack of variety (which doesn't exist to be
objected to) and not to the presence of gay stories per se (an attitude
which many people find censorious, bigoted and offensive.)
: 3.  I understand that my stance against the gay stories is objectionable to
: many people in this newsgroup.
: 4.  I want those people to understand that I find gay stories equally
: offensive to me.
hm.  while you are welcome to find homosexuality or gay stories offensive,
it's not an "equal" kind of offensiveness.  people were mad that you were
1) calling for the gay stories to _go away_ and 2) insulting their
lifestyles.  you were insulting people over what they choose to write and
how they choose to live -- which is not quite the same kind of offense as
merely not liking the content of some of the stories, which you are free
to skip.  there are vital issues of a) free speech and b) personal respect
involved here.
: 5.  I am posting my own story in this newsgroup.
for which the newsgroup thanks you! =)  the more variety, the better.
: 6.  I have spoken my last word on this subject, but I have no doubt that

: others will revive the argument.
doubtless the next uninformed newcomer who decides he doesn't like gay
stories, yes.  
        but i am glad this part of it is done with. and that you have
informed yourself.  :)
: 7.  I thank all my friends and flamers for trying to educate me.  Some of

: it took, and some of it did not.
: 8.  I look forward to reading your stories, and expect to bail out of many
: of them.
that is your right!  just as it is that of others to write and post them,
and to respond to your posts as flamers or friends.
        there's plenty of room for diversity and for disagreement here, as
long as we keep things civil and respectful on a personal level.  the
point, after all, is to provide a forum for the stories.  all of them.
        welcome to the community, george.  it's a great place to be. =)
--
cheers,
--;-;--@ susannah };&)
========================================================================
The Devil, having nothing else to do,
Went off to tempt My Lady Poltagrue.
My Lady, tempted by a private whim,
To his extreme annoyance, tempted him.
                -- Hilaire Belloc: 'On Lady Poltagrue, a Public Peril.'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
             * Susannah R Mandel  *  sma...@fas.harvard.edu *
************************************************************************
"My God!" ejaculated Phelps.
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Terabithia
5/11/97
A Response To your response
Other recipients:
Obviously of you wouldn't be complaining about the Slash

George Morgan wrote:
>
> 1.  I do read the material in this group.
>
Obviously of you wouldn't be complaining about the Slash
> 2.  I am beginning to find material that I do not find offensive.
>
See it is there it just hides from time to time...
> 3.  I understand that my stance against the gay stories is objectionable to
> many people in this newsgroup.
>
Quite objectionable... you are insulting our stories our stories, and
there by insulting us.  You can detest my work if you like but please do
it quietly.
> 4.  I want those people to understand that I find gay stories equally
> offensive to me.
>
Our stoies don't call you trash...
> 5.  I am posting my own story in this newsgroup.
>
I noticed... I'll let you knoe what I think when I read it
> 6.  I have spoken my last word on this subject, but I have no doubt that
> others will revive the argument.
>
Good now hopefully this will die before it becomes another NC-17
argument... (hint hint)

 
> 7.  I thank all my friends and flamers for trying to educate me.  Some of
> it took, and some of it did not.
>
 I hope much of it took...
> 8.  I look forward to reading your stories, and expect to bail out of many
> of them.
>
Go right ahead just do it quietly please... Don't distrube the creative
genius that floats around in here.

now I don't mean any of this ofensivly so please don't take it that
way...
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Zepp
5/11/97
Other recipients:
On 11 May 1997 00:51:28 GMT, "George Morgan" <pata...@evansville.net> wrote:

On 11 May 1997 00:51:28 GMT, "George Morgan" <pata...@evansville.net>
wrote:
>1.  I do read the material in this group.
>
>2.  I am beginning to find material that I do not find offensive.  
<remainder snipped, for brevity only>
George, thank you.  I can live with ye, if ye can live with me.  I am
quite willing to call truce and let our differences simply exist.
Greywolf the Wanderer
--borrowing Zepp's account.
--header munged to foil spambots; remove the extra "p"
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Brian Merrick Meyers
5/11/97
Other recipients:

> I agree. Once in a while is fine, but it's getting out of hand.
> Especially with Q. Q is a great character, and can do a lot more
> than this one storyline.

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Ruth Gifford
5/11/97
Other recipients:
On 11 May 1997 00:51:28 GMT, George Morgan  wrote:

On 11 May 1997 00:51:28 GMT, George Morgan  wrote:
>3.  I understand that my stance against the gay stories is objectionable to
>many people in this newsgroup.
It was the wording of your stance that was offensive.  I don't particularly
like really sweet het stories (although there are some exceptions) but I
don't go out online and say things about them making me spew all over my
keyboard. If you'd been a little less offensive, I know that I (for one)
might not have been so pissed off.
>4.  I want those people to understand that I find gay stories equally
>offensive to me.
And saying you find them offensive in careful tones such as these might be
a better way to go about it.  Telling people not to post their stories is
absurd and rude.
>5.  I am posting my own story in this newsgroup.
Good for you; there's room for all of us.
>8.  I look forward to reading your stories, and expect to bail out of many
>of them.
And from my other ISP, I just posted a bunch of fairly tame het stuff,
including a few things that you might like, depending on your tastes.
At the risk of being repeatative (who me?), I'll say that it was the sheer
rudeness that set me off.  That and having had recently to defend my right
(which is in the FAQ) to post *any* kind of TrekSmut to this news group.  It
gets old people, really old.
Ruth
--
***************************************************
*    Ruth     |      FAQ Maintainer for           *
*   Gifford   |   alt.startrek.creative.erotica   *
*-------------------------------------------------*
* Better living thru TrekSmut--See for Yourself!  *
*     http://www.capital.net/users/rjs1/asce      *
***************************************************
"To hell with your assumptions.  I've got problems
of my own.  Just when it looks like everything  in
my miserable little life is starting to go well, my
father up and dies, and the love that dare not speak
its name has set up shopkeeping in my guest room."
"The Life, Thoughts and Deeds of Hieronymous Jobs"
Emily Gifford

Show trimmed content
A. Collene Pearce
5/14/97
Other recipients:
The original article was posted to ASC. I thought the original poster, though perhaps a little over "zealous", was offended by "gay" stories being posted to ASC. I thought explicit gay stories (slash) were supposed to be posted to ASCE, along with th
The original article was posted to ASC.  
I thought the original poster, though perhaps a
little over "zealous", was offended by "gay"
stories being posted to ASC.
I thought explicit gay stories (slash) were supposed to
be posted to ASCE, along with the other explicit stories.
acp
--------------
- show quoted text -
In article <5l3n48$ogm$2...@nntp.cyberg8t.com> you write:
 >On 11 May 1997 00:51:28 GMT, George Morgan  wrote:
 >
 >>3.  I understand that my stance against the gay stories is objectionable to
 >>many people in this newsgroup.
 >
 >It was the wording of your stance that was offensive.  I don't particularly
 >like really sweet het stories (although there are some exceptions) but I
 >don't go out online and say things about them making me spew all over my
 >keyboard. If you'd been a little less offensive, I know that I (for one)
 >might not have been so pissed off.
 >
 >>4.  I want those people to understand that I find gay stories equally
 >>offensive to me.
 >
 >And saying you find them offensive in careful tones such as these might be
 >a better way to go about it.  Telling people not to post their stories is
 >absurd and rude.
 >
 >>5.  I am posting my own story in this newsgroup.
 >
 >Good for you; there's room for all of us.
 >
 >>8.  I look forward to reading your stories, and expect to bail out of many
 >>of them.
 >
 >And from my other ISP, I just posted a bunch of fairly tame het stuff,
 >including a few things that you might like, depending on your tastes.
 >
 >At the risk of being repeatative (who me?), I'll say that it was the sheer
 >rudeness that set me off.  That and having had recently to defend my right
 >(which is in the FAQ) to post *any* kind of TrekSmut to this news group.  It
 >gets old people, really old.
 >
 >Ruth
 >
 >--
 >***************************************************
 >*    Ruth     |      FAQ Maintainer for           *
 >*   Gifford   |   alt.startrek.creative.erotica   *
 >*-------------------------------------------------*
 >* Better living thru TrekSmut--See for Yourself!  *
 >*     http://www.capital.net/users/rjs1/asce      *
 >***************************************************
 >
 >"To hell with your assumptions.  I've got problems
 >of my own.  Just when it looks like everything  in
 >my miserable little life is starting to go well, my
 >father up and dies, and the love that dare not speak
 >its name has set up shopkeeping in my guest room."
 >
 >"The Life, Thoughts and Deeds of Hieronymous Jobs"
 >Emily Gifford
 >
Show trimmed content
Joyce Harmon
5/14/97
Other recipients:
In article <5lc5rh$e...@xanadu.io.com>, col...@io.com says...

In article <5lc5rh$e...@xanadu.io.com>, col...@io.com says...

>
>
>The original article was posted to ASC.  
>I thought the original poster, though perhaps a
>little over "zealous", was offended by "gay"
>stories being posted to ASC.
>
>I thought explicit gay stories (slash) were supposed to
>be posted to ASCE, along with the other explicit stories.
>
>acp

By now, anyone who lives on the Eastern Seaboard can probably hear me
gnashing my teeth, pounding on the keyboard, and shrieking madly, "Didn't we
just HAVE this conversation?!"
*Once Again*!  ASC is for the posting of *all* trek fanfic, and the
discussion of same.  ASCE is for the posting and discussion of trek erotica.
ASCE is carried by only 29% of ISPs, meaning that over 2/3rds of the
citizens of the net are unable to access it.  Adult stories have *always*
been within the charter of ASC, and still are to this day.
Joyce

Show trimmed content
Mary Jo Hurd
5/15/97
Uh Oh... ( Was Re: A Response ....)
Other recipients:
Pegeel wrote:

Pegeel wrote:

>
> acp says:
> >>The original article was posted to ASC.
> I thought the original poster, though perhaps a
> little over "zealous", was offended by "gay"
> stories being posted to ASC.
>
> I thought explicit gay stories (slash) were supposed to
> be posted to ASCE, along with the other explicit stories.>>
>
  <snipped most of Peg's wonderful (as always)
   explanation of the current hair-trigger
   sensitivity of the news group to statements
   like those above >
> Anyway, that's *my* version of the skinny: why the original poster got
> flamed, and why sexual stories are posted on asc.  He got flamed because
> his approach made him look a whole lot too much like a type of
> aggressively biased poster we've seen too much of around here lately; and
> sex stories are posted here because they have always been posted here, and
> not enough people see any real reason why they shouldn't to make trying to
> hold a referendum anything like worthwhile.
I don't disagree a bit, but I would re-phrase
one point just a bit.
Sex stories are posted here because *most* folks
*want* them posted here - because they want the
stories and/or they are opposed to anything that
smacks of censorship.
I include myself in this *most*, but am primarily
referring to *all* the (many, many, many) folks who
said so during the last round of (ahem) discussion
(in the hopes of avoiding another round).
--
Mary Jo Hurd
Voyager/Janeway/Mulgrew fan
Show trimmed content
A. Collene Pearce
5/15/97
The Gay Smut Issue (I love this title) ;-)
Other recipients:
In article <19970514195...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,

In article <19970514195...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,

Pegeel <peg...@aol.com> wrote:
>acp says:
>>>The original article was posted to ASC.  
>I thought the original poster, though perhaps a
>little over "zealous", was offended by "gay"
>stories being posted to ASC.
>
>I thought explicit gay stories (slash) were supposed to
>be posted to ASCE, along with the other explicit stories.>>
>
>Hi, acp.  <WG>  I'll try to respond to this *before* the rest of the world
>flames.  I'm afraid this is an *old* issue, which is part of why folks are
>getting snarky. The same mis-information and arguments being brought up
>for months can get on folks' nerves....
>
>The only posting restrictions on asc are that the material be Startrek fan
>fic, related to Startrek fan fic, or a response to Startrek fan fic.
>That's it.  No restrictions about subject, type, genre, or sexual nature.
>That was the way the group was set up from the beginning -- all inclusive.
...snipping posting rules....
Thanks for the information.  I usually zap the non-story
posts, so I missed all the flame wars you mention.
I have no idea why I read the one that prompted my reply.
All this time I thought the NC17 posts to ASC were either
accidents by people who didn't know better or people who
were just being rude.  It's a strange world.  ;-) It's too
bad that it isn't seperated, as I've run in to duplicates
between the 2 newsgroups before, but I don't have agreat
deal of emotion invested in it, either way.
If one can post anything to ASC, I don't understand
why we created ASFS ages ago and then replaced it
with ASCE.  Looks like we need to delete ASCE now.  
I wonder if somewhere along the line, the consensus
of the "original charter" for both groups didn't get
changed.  
However all this discussion of ASC vs. ASCE is not
relevant.  I was just trying to point out that the
original poster was trying to get the "gay smut" (is
that what he/she called it) out of ASC and into ASCE.  
Insteading of having a gay/straight flame war with
her/him, someone should have explained it's "legal"
to post "smut" in ASC.  It would have been soooo much
less explosive. ;-)
acp
***********************************************************************
* A. Collene Pearce                *   email: col...@io.com          *
***********************************************************************
Show trimmed content
Ruth Gifford
5/16/97
The Gay Smut Issue (I love this title) ;-)
Other recipients:
As far as I know, ASC has always existed for the posting and discussion of *all* Star Trek fanfic; from Sean's technical stuff to my bdsm smut (notice that both Sean and I mark our headers so that the non-techs won't read his stuff, and the non smut

On 15 May 1997 17:50:56 -0500, A. Collene Pearce wrote:
>If one can post anything to ASC, I don't understand
>why we created ASFS ages ago and then replaced it
>with ASCE.  Looks like we need to delete ASCE now.  
>I wonder if somewhere along the line, the consensus
>of the "original charter" for both groups didn't get
>changed.  

As far as I know, ASC has always existed for the posting and discussion of
*all* Star Trek fanfic; from Sean's technical stuff to my bdsm smut (notice
that both Sean and I mark our headers so that the non-techs won't read his
stuff, and the non smut readers won't read mine) and *everything* in between.
ASFS/ASCE, however, has had a much broader charter, being not only for the
posting and discussion of TrekSmut, but also for frank discussion of which
characters we'd like to see with which other character, complaints about the
way TPTB handle sex and relationships, and all matters that pertain to Trek
and sex.
ASCE was formed back when we thought ASFS was being overrun with spam.  It
was the fall of '95 and the spam was *very* light compared to what ASCE now
gets, but we thought changing names might help.  In retrospect, I don't think
it did, many more ISPs carried asfs than now carry asce, and we still have
massive spamming.
Another note for those that protest the smut.  Star Trek is the only
show/universe to have a seperate ng for smut.  If you're an X-Files fan who
doesn't like slash, you still have to pick through it over on their creative
ng. Fanfic writers will write what they want and most of them will respect
the rights of their fellow artists.  If anyone reading this also hangs out on
the X-Files group, I'd love to find out what the prevailing attitude regading
the posting of smut is over there.

>However all this discussion of ASC vs. ASCE is not
>relevant.  I was just trying to point out that the
>original poster was trying to get the "gay smut" (is
>that what he/she called it) out of ASC and into ASCE.  
>Insteading of having a gay/straight flame war with
>her/him, someone should have explained it's "legal"
>to post "smut" in ASC.  It would have been soooo much
>less explosive. ;-)
Sorry, but you don't have your facts right.  The original post (I've got it
saved if anyone needs to read it again) was by tom_paris and he said
*nothing* about moving the "gay stories" (his term and one I'm not wild
about, slash is more correct, but that's another thread) to ASCE.  In fact he
was demanding that we stop posting them and yelled (all caps) his demand that
more het smut be posted to *ASC*.  Then George Morgan got offensive, I got
offended (again, that's another thread) and things seemed to move downhill
from there.
The other thing to remember is that both tom-paris and George Morgan are
regulars on this group.  I'm assuming that they (like myself and many others)
are conversant with the FAQ.  In addition to the information in the FAQ, we
also have someone (Macedon) who tends to warn us when the discussion strays
off topic or is inappropriate to the charter.  Neither he, nor Stephen have
ever sugggested that posting slash (or NC-17 stories) to asc was in anyway
inappropriate or rude behavior.
Again it comes down to a *very* easy answer.  If you don't want to read
slash, don't. It's just that simple.  We (or most of us) mark it in the
headers and warn people in our disclaimers.  If Sean's tech manual updates
are more your style, read those.  Frankly, for all that my original character
is an engineer, I don't like reading tech manuals, so I don't read them (I do
read Sean's posts on other matters).  But I'd be just as insistent about
defending his right to post them as the people who say they don't read slash
but still defend my right to post it.
Also, and I'm not trying to be rude here, you would have known that ASC
allowed for the posting of TrekSmut if you'd read the FAQ.
Ruth
***************************************************
*    Ruth     |      FAQ Maintainer for           *
*   Gifford   |   alt.startrek.creative.erotica   *
*-------------------------------------------------*
* Better living thru TrekSmut--See for Yourself!  *
*     http://www.capital.net/users/rjs1/asce      *
***************************************************
"To hell with your assumptions.  I've got problems
of my own.  Just when it looks like everything  in
my miserable little life is starting to go well, my
father up and dies, and the love that dare not speak
its name has set up shopkeeping in my guest room."
"The Life, Thoughts and Deeds of Hieronymous Jobs"
Emily Gifford

Show trimmed content
Terrie
5/16/97
Other recipients:
is allowed on the ng. It is merely asked that you properly label your story for others convenince. -Terrie

>   col...@io.com (A. Collene Pearce) writes:
>  
>  The original article was posted to ASC.  
>  I thought the original poster, though perhaps a
>  little over "zealous", was offended by "gay"
>  stories being posted to ASC.
>  
>  I thought explicit gay stories (slash) were supposed to
>  be posted to ASCE, along with the other explicit stories.
>  
>  acp
 Ok, once again. Any story of Trek nature, be it [G] to [NC-17]
 is allowed on the ng. It is merely asked that you properly
 label your story for others convenince.
-Terrie
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Gail Pamphilon
5/21/97
The Gay Smut Issue (I love this title) ;-)
Other recipients:
Quoth eresh...@earthlink.net (Ruth Gifford):

Quoth eresh...@earthlink.net (Ruth Gifford):
>Another note for those that protest the smut.  Star Trek is the only
>show/universe to have a seperate ng for smut.  If you're an X-Files fan who
>doesn't like slash, you still have to pick through it over on their creative
>ng. Fanfic writers will write what they want and most of them will respect
>the rights of their fellow artists.  If anyone reading this also hangs out on
>the X-Files group, I'd love to find out what the prevailing attitude regading
>the posting of smut is over there.
Late reply, but I hope it's still useful. alt.tv.x-files.creative is
difficult to read, because stories posted there have no clues in their
headers. There is a very high volume of fan fiction, so it's
impossible to read most of it, but the reader has no idea what to
download.
The a.s.c. whingers should be thankful that a.s.c. posters go to so
much trouble to fill their headers with every clue available as to
what the story is about, and who it stars. I for one am as grateful
for their classification efforts as their literary efforts. I will
probably give up on a.t.x.c, as it's too much bother.
Gail
   )
  (
c[ ]
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Katisha
5/25/97
The Gay Smut Issue
Other recipients:
[snip] > > And I'm still waiting for a story between Kirk and that Hota. She was > female after all <wicked g> > >       anne in chicago Female, yeah, but she was so corrosive she burned holes through solid *rock*.  Do you like Kirk?  Jusk asking.  :

Annchgo wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> And I'm still waiting for a story between Kirk and that Hota. She was
> female after all <wicked g>
>
>       anne in chicago
Female, yeah, but she was so corrosive she burned holes through solid
*rock*.  Do you like Kirk?  Jusk asking.  :)
Katisha.
Show trimmed content
Annchgo
5/25/97
The Gay Smut Issue
Other recipients:
Well, sure I like Kirk. I just thought he might see it as a challenge <g> anne in chicago

Well, sure I like Kirk. I just thought he might see it as a challenge <g>
 anne in chicago
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