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Raw Ruby by chopandscrewin adventuretime

[–]Strange_Dragons 2 points3 points

neither do I :(

Theists: Could man ever have enough knowledge to understand at least parts of God? by morebeanspleasein DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

No. I know absolutely nothing about dark energy, so I answered honestly: I don't know. It wasn't a statement concerning the application of the via negative to dark energy. I genuinely know nothing about it.

Why is apostasy more frowned upon than atheism? by QuestioningJewin Judaism

[–]Strange_Dragons 1 point2 points

This is the right answer. A Jewish atheist is still a Jew. An apostate has fully turned his or her back on the people.

[TW: Not Tumblr] Jezebel demonstrates its deep understanding of sexual liberation by salshasamin TumblrInAction

[–]Strange_Dragons 2 points3 points

Gaytheists

Jesus died for your fashion sense

To all: If the teachings of Religion A are affirmed by the mystical experience of someone from Religion B, does that increase the credibility of the mystical experience, and that Religion A is correct? by Creadvtyin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

As you said, it's a "cultural idea." Naturally the cultural idea is not universal but rather affects members of a particular culture.

And yet everyone who is familiar with Christianity knows that there is a cultural meme of Jesus showing up in dreams. Sometimes crazy ideas that you've only half-heard happen in dreams. I haven't read about the Apollo moon landings is years but dreamt about going to the moon last month. This kind of thing is universal.

Again, the problem is that you've defined mystical experience in such a way that is so common that it's not a helpful criterion anymore.

You're presupposing that a particular subset of religious experiences, specifically dreams of Jesus, are themselves a helpful criteria. Because of the universality of religious experiences and the wide variety of types thereof, I do not see any reason to use any one person's particular religious experience to justify one religious belief over another. Seriously, this is pretty elementary stuff. Go read William James' Varieties of Religious Experience.

You say Daniel, Bar Kokhba or Rebbe Schneerson were also candidates for the Messiah but they died, left the job undone, and therefore people don't think they are the Messiah anymore. Not surprisingly, you don't find a multitude of people claiming that any of them is the Messiah.

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b) implies that the prophet Daniel may rise from the dead as the Moshiach. Sabbatai Zevi had a whole following for two centuries after his death. (I apologize for mentioning Bar Kokhba, I meant to refer to Sabbatai Zevi instead.) And of course there are the modern Chabad meshichistim, a sect within Chabad that believes the late Rebbe, who died in 1992, is the Moshiach.

Jesus' claim reached critical mass. The others did not. I guess intentionally preaching a watered-down version of messianism to non-Jews helped?

By the end of the first century, there were already many Christians as far as Rome and Asia Minor.

There were also huge numbers of Jews spread throughout the entire Roman Empire. Judaism was almost as popular as Christianity, especially among the elites, up until the Bar Kokhba revolt and subsequent Ficus Tax etc.

There is no question that Jesus died. If he did not resurrect, why would anyone believe? Shouldn't Christianity fade away just like the followers of those other candidates for the Messiah, particularly given the opposition against Christianity?

"10 million Christians can't be wrong!"

But seriously, consider the same argument for Islam, which unlike mainstream Christianity does not claim Jesus' divinity. There are a hell of a lot of them - are they right, based on their numbers? Did Muhammad truly ride a flying horse to Jerusalem? Did all of those miracles really happen?

On the contrary, rather than fade, Christianity grew exponentially even though they did not use any force to spread their faith

HAHAHAAHAHAHHA

Constantine's sons, for example, banned pagan State religious sacrifices in 341, but did not close the temples. Although all State temples in all cities were ordered shut in 356, there is evidence that traditional sacrifices continued. Under Julian, the temples were reopened and State religious sacrifices performed once more. When Gratian declined the position and title of Pontifex Maximus, his act effectively brought an end to the state religion due to the position's authority and ties within the Imperial administration. Again however, this process ended State official practices but not private religious devotion. As Christianity spread, many of the ancient pagan temples were defiled, sacked, destroyed, or converted into Christian sites by such figures as Martin of Tours, and in the East often by militant monks. However, many temples remained open until Theodosius I's edict of Thessalonica in 380 made public expression of the ancient cults illegal, bringing ancient religious toleration formally to an end. Further laws were passed against remaining pagan practices over the course of the following years.

A turning point came after the Battle of the Frigidus of 395, ending the last serious attempt to restore general toleration. After the defeat of Eugenius, the conservative pagan families of Rome gave up their resistance to Christianity and began to re-invent themselves as the papal families of Late Antiquity.

As one example from a thirty-second Google search. I'm sure there's more scholarship on this.

The answer for the rapid expansion (instead of decline) after Christ's death is documented by St. Paul: there were more than 500 witnesses to Christ's reappearance. See 1 Cor. 15:3-8.

The four Gospels disagree, and they all disagree with each other.

Jesus' divinity was not an invention of St. Paul but something already known by the Apostles. If you would like to discuss further, I'm happy to do so.

Then explain Arian Christianity and all the other historical non-trinitarian doctrines. Where did they come from?

Arius taught that God the Father and the Son of God did not always exist together eternally. [5] Arians taught that the Logos was a divine being created by God the Father before the world. The Son of God is subordinate to God the Father. [6] In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a "creature", in the sense of "created being". Arius and his followers appealed to Bible verses such as Jesus saying that the father is "greater than I" (John 14:28), and "The LORD/Yahweh created me at the beginning of his work" (Proverbs 8:22).[7] Controversy over Arianism arose in the late 3rd century and persisted throughout most of the 4th century. It involved most church members—from simple believers, priests and monks to bishops, emperors and members of Rome's imperial family. Such a deep controversy within the Church during this period of its development could not have materialized without significant historical influences providing a basis for the Arian doctrines.[8]

[8] Hanson, R P C (2007). The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God. Grand Rapids: Baker Academic. pp. 127–128. ISBN 0-8010-3146-X.

(source)

I'm not very familiar with the OT

No Christian ever is.

no one has ever claimed the divine name for himself.

But prophets have spoken on behalf of the Divine Name. See for example "Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and speak to him, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, Let My people go!'" (Exodus 9:1).

In the passage you were talking about, the crowd wasn't asking just about any random person, but how did Jesus see Abraham, given that he wasn't even 50 yrs. old.

John 8:57 Some manuscripts has Abraham seen you?

(source

The crowd knew exactly what Jesus meant that's why they were going to stone him.

The crowd is throwing stones at him because he's proclaiming that Abraham predicted Jesus' messianism - something the Torah never claims! Further, Jesus also insults the Jews in the Temple and generally makes a complete ass of himself (the entire chapter and John 8:44 especially).

They are not throwing stones at him because of any Jesus-is-divine implications. They're throwing stones at him because he's a disruptive asshole who's somehow evading the proper authorities while making a mess of the Temple and insulting the entire Jewish people.

Stuck and don't know what to do. by madayarijbain Judaism

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

I believe in you.

On the Lack of Aliyah by 4cubitsin Judaism

[–]Strange_Dragons 2 points3 points

Agreed. It makes no sense to be a Jew and willingly live in Diaspora, when we have this miracle available to us. That's why I'm making Aliyah as soon as I can and taking as many people with me as I can.

To all: Can an omnipotent being prove they are omnipotent? by Dzugaviliin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

If you read the link you supplied, they [Israelites] didn't appear suddenly; it says the Canaanites appeared suddenly in the 12th century, and the Israelites have little evidence before the 12th century.

Two contradictory statements. Did you read this link I've provided you, or did you just barely skim it like the others?

However, I'm following the general opinion that the Israelites, as a group, may have been a lie: it's considered likely that the Israelites prior to the 6th century BC were polytheists and likely included numerous of the surrounding kingdoms, those later mentioned to be worshipping false gods, as kin.

Where's the lie? The Torah itself talks about the henotheistic nature of the Israelites. Please provide a source that does a little more work than you do.


I'm further amused by your now-total avoidance of my aforementioned argument. If you don't want to engage with alternative viewpoints, don't come to a debate subreddit.

My Capital City by legomoanin civ

[–]Strange_Dragons 1 point2 points

Gorgeous!

Can I make a Summoner cast spells with Con instead of Cha? by Strange_Dragonsin Pathfinder_RPG

[–]Strange_Dragons[S] 0 points1 point

Myeh. We're not going to be homebrewing any of the stat bonuses, we're playing a Dwarf game for reasons.

Do you think playing a Cha-caster with a -2 Cha is a smart move?

Israel's housing ministry says it is advancing plans for 1,500 new settlement housing units in the West Bank and east Jerusalem in response to the new Palestinian unity government backed by Hamas. by Alwaystruein Israel

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

Jordan's occupation of the West Bank was not recognized by any country in the world, so that shows that the prohibition against forceful annexation of territory by war already existed before 1967 and the preamble in UNSCR did not constitute a "change", but merely a reminder.

It was contentious in the Arab League and recognized by Britain, the US, and Pakistan (source). As far as I know, the UN failed to condemn Jordan even once.

Similarly, the world has never recognized Morocco's annexation of Western Sahara, and there is a long list of UN resolutions[1] calling Morocco to respect the right of self-determination of the Sahrawi people.

That's shocking - there's no comparable BDS campaign against Morocco, or any media attention to this issue whatsoever. The UN may be saying words words words but the world is ignoring them in due course.

In the case of Tibet, since it was already part of the Qing empire before 1950, and not one single country had ever recognized it as a sovereign and independent state, the conquest was never acknowledged as such, though the conflict is not exactly ignored by the world

The history of Tibetan sovereignty is much more complicated than you think it is. It's also very easy to see why the world doesn't want to recognize Tibetan claims to independence: China is much too powerful a world player and no one wants to step on its toes. International politics generally follows the guns and the money.

(Free Tibet campaigns are about as popular as Free Palestine ones around the world).

Ha! Tibet wishes that were true. I don't see frequent "BDS China!" movements anywhere, do you?

To all: Can an omnipotent being prove they are omnipotent? by Dzugaviliin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

This isn't true. It was well known, or well established, that the Trojan war occurred, we didn't know where. We know where Egypt is.

You're wrong. It was thought to be a myth, just as you think the Revelation at Sinai was a myth.

I read your provided links and determined the same argument still applies. If you're not a Jew, a remarkably orthodox Jew, then the argument carries no weight.

I'm not a remarkably orthodox Jew and it's convincing to me. You could, you know, actually respond to the claims made in those articles. The latter is the better one, I admit, because of its clear formatting. Try that one.

There is no difference between these 'g-narratives' and the texts already in existence.

I want to call that kind of story a g-narrative. G-narratives are any story with the following two characteristics: (G1) The events of the story were, according to the story itself, witnessed by an entire generation of an already numerous tribe/nation. (G2) The story itself claims that the witnesses endeavoured to initiate a chain of transmission from generation to generation – ?And you shall tell your child’ – such that their progeny would never forget what they saw.

...

G-narratives, even when their storylines are set a long time ago, are not completely beyond the verificatory reach of their audience, because, at the very least, the audience will know whether the story was passed down to them by the entirety of the previous generation. G-narratives in the body of Jewish narratives are an exception, rather than the norm. But they are significant for the following reason: it’s difficult to believe that any g-narrative could have become widespread as a myth unless it had been passed down from generation to generation. The only generation that would have accepted a g-narrative, even as the basis of a myth, or so it seems to me, would be the generation that witnessed the key events of the story for themselves. Otherwise, they’d have said, ?I didn’t see this, and no one ever told me about it before now!’ If a g-narrative is widespread across a culture, however primitive, you’d have good reason to believe that its central story line, or something similar to it, actually occurred. To accept this thesis is not to revert to anything like an historiographical approach to Jewish narrative in general.

It’s also worth pointing out just how few of the central Jewish narratives are g-narratives. All of the stories that pertain to times before the emergence of the Jewish people fall short of being g-narratives. All of the narratives that weren’t supposed to have happened before the entire nation also fall short. There are even narratives that talk of miracles that were beheld by the entire nation, such as the sun standing still for Joshua, that fail to be g-narratives because the story doesn’t talk of an endeavour to pass the story on from generation to generation. The story of the exodus from Egypt and the mass revelation at Mount Sinai, which are both accompanied with commandments to keep the story alive, are some of the rare occasions in which a Jewish narrative can claim to be a g-narrative. In fact, very few religious or historical narratives outside of Judaism can claim to be g-narratives either.

I don't believe you actually read the link I posted. You are misunderstanding what a g-narrative is within the text - it is not something parallel to the text of the Torah. By refusing to do so, you do yourself a great disservice. By appearing to lie to me, you demonstrate that you likely are not debating in good faith.

It is an oral tradition, not an accurate keeping of records, and cannot be adequately seperated from the mythology.

Not only are you wrong - because we're talking about the Torah, which is a written record - but you are also dismissing the ways in which oral history are integral to the accurate keeping of records as separate from mythology. (See here, Structure and validity in oral evidence)

Of course, your position is that Jewish history consists of no mythology, which would make it unique -- in a completely unfounded way.

Entirely false. My position is that the core narrative of the Sinai Revelation - that the nation of Israel stood on the Mountain as Moses gave them the Law from God - is true. The Garden, the Flood, and many other stories are mythological; Exodus, the Revelation at Sinai, and the conquest of Canaan are all historically true but may have been embellished over time. The latter article, the one I've been trying to get you to read, addresses this point thoroughly.

In response to (P2), I have to make some concessions. It’s true. A narrative transmitted down the generations can be subject to all manner of subtle and gradual evolutions. Imagine a massive intergenerational game of Chinese Whispers. By the time that the message has reached the end of the line, its originator has died, and can’t tell you whether its integrity has been preserved. Nevertheless, one would imagine that the main headlines of the story, even if all of the details became perverted, would remain constant down the chain. Any major rupture or change to the general plot-line, and any diminution of its most striking claims, would surely be noted by a public in love with its legends and folklore. But, we can imagine a gradual process of exaggeration, and we can imagine a gradual corruption of mundane details. For that reason, a widespread g-narrative cannot be trusted as an accurate history. Its religious function, thankfully, isn’t to serve as an accurate history – because as I say, historical accuracy isn't the purpose of myth. But, one can trust, or so it seems, that its main claims must have had some basis in fact, however tenuous. An uninterrupted chain of testimony doesn’t have the truth-preserving qualities attributed to it by Saadya Gaon and R. Yehuda Halevi, but it does justify the less ambitious claim that the story must have had some sort of grounding in fact. The story of the exodus and the revelation at Sinai is now a widespread g-narrative. This seems to justify the claim that an entire nation or tribe had some remarkable religious experiences, once upon a time, even if the finer details of the story can’t be trusted as an accurate historical account.

Again, please actually read the argument I'm providing you before dismissing it out-of-hand. Move beyond your preconceived conclusions. Be skeptical, but be willing to investigate fairly.

The difference is we know Einstein existed. We only have vague stories of, say, Abraham or any of the ancient founders.

How does that have any bearing on the language of his last words, if he even had said anything to his non-German-speaking maid? We also know that the Israelite people suddenly appeared in the 12th century BCE and that they largely did not consume pork products, especially in Judea, unlike their Philistine neighbors. We can locate the beginnings of the entrenchment of Israelite taboos that match up quite well to Jewish religious taboos as described in the Torah. The Kuzari Argument implies that this taboo was Commanded by God at Sinai before the Israelites settled and/or conquered Judea. (This conquest began in the south and moved northwards, exactly paralleling the spread of the pork taboo in the Iron Age.)

I read it, and rejected it.

I have no reason to believe you, and many reasons to disbelieve you.

To all: Can an omnipotent being prove they are omnipotent? by Dzugaviliin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

On it's face, this is an argument ad populum. There you go, conclusively disproved; it's fallacious. Just because 100,000-600,000 people believe something does not mean that it is true, even if you have an unbroken chain of oral tradition that begins at a point.

So if 100,000 people saw Obama eat chocolate ice cream, are we required to disregard those claims? No. Argumentum ad populum is "one million people cannot be wrong, in spite of the lack of first-person testimony in support of their claims." It is an irrelevant argument against first-person witnesses. No one claims argumentum ad populum to the vast amount of primary sources for Napoleon.

Any premise that assumes that such a story couldn't be introduced without the event happening is completely unsupported.

This is the "telephone argument," and both my linked articles respond to it. The actual responses are too long to post here, but I assure you that reading my linked sources will give you the answer.

Further, this argumentative form is not testament merely to Judaism- an unbroken chain of tradition would be testament to christianity, lepruchans and the chupacabra- if you set the initial witness population at 100,000 or some, it becomes obvious that such a requirement is entirely arbitrary (indeed, conveniently contrived to serve the Torah...), and must fallaciously employ a paradox of the heap.

All of those claims have large witnesses in the aggregate, but very few witnesses when we look at each specific claim. All ghost sightings have been individual, or groups of less than ten at the largest, even if many thousands or millions have altogether seen ghosts. When we look at each claim itself, the Kuzari argument cannot apply. The entire nation of the Jewish people saw the miracle all at once; this is categorically different than your grandmother seeing the ghost of her long-dead uncle in the middle of the night.

Genesis 22:2

Not a lie

1 Kings 22:23

2 Chronicles 18:22

Two copies of the same story. In 1 Kings 22:7, it clearly points to how they were false prophets - and God warns us against them frequently, see here.

Jeremiah 4:10

False. Know the context here: Jeremiah is saying that if the Jews fails to follow the Law, they will be punished. He is quoting the people of Israel who are too blind to realize that they are God's promise of peace was conditional on their adherence to the Covenant (see Deut. 4)

Jeremiah 20:7

פִּתִּיתַנִי יְהֹוָה וָ?ֶפָּת חֲזַקְתַּנִי וַתּוּכָל הָיִיתִי לִשְׂחוֹק כָּל הַיּוֹם כֻּלֹּה לֹעֵג לִי

You enticed me, O Lord, and I was enticed, You overcame me and You prevailed. I have become a laughing-stock; everyone mocks me.

Rashi says: You enticed me to go on your mission. You overcame me You made Your strong hand heavy upon me to go against my will.

(source) No lies there, just the Prophet being mad at God for being used as God's mouthpiece. Sucks to be important.

Ezekiel 14:9

Rashi says: have enticed: I opened a doorway for him to [do] whatever he wishes. And from here we can learn that if one wishes to defile himself, they open [a door] for him.

Again, the word is "enticed." (source). No lies, just God permitting Israel to do evil. Free will's a bitch.

Got any more? I can do this all day.

genuinely

Don't be a smart-ass. Explain what you mean by "genuinely" when we're still on solipsism. What makes us sure that something is genuine? Does it even matter?

But it is impossible to do things in a dream under the impression that the dream is real (Re: genuinely) once you suspect it is a dream without in some sense dismissing the notion that it is a dream.

Yes, clearly you cannot believe that you are awake simultaneously while you believe that you are dreaming. Please relate that tautology back to how this necessitates a dismissal of solipsism.

You can't know: 1) That you exist. (are you a demon lying to himself?) 2) That the world exists. 3) That logic works (how can you even conclude hard solipsism without logic?).

You can't do that awake or asleep, period, without dismissing hard solipsism. I'm asking you to dismiss hard solipsism.

It is simply not required that one believe in an omnipotent being to accept (or take axiomatically) that one exists, the world exists, and that evidence is at least one way of verifying truth.

Sure, fine. It is also not required to believe that evidence is at least one way of verifying truth, or even that the world exists, in order to "do something genuinely." Simply do things as you would in a dream.

To all: Can an omnipotent being prove they are omnipotent? by Dzugaviliin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

here is so little evidence, with the exception of the Torah, none at all, for the enslavement in Egypt that the scholars have conceded it didn't happen as the story tells.

And before there was archaeological evidence for the city of Troy, the Trojan War period was "known" to not have existed. Modern scientists cannot find refuse from known and abandoned Bedouin camps from fifty years ago! How foolish you are to dismiss a 35,000 year old Bedouin camp for lack of evidence!

The Kuzari principle only holds if you believe the premises, which are unsupported.

You cannot continuously repeat that the claims are unsupported without actually analyzing those damned claims. Please do so. Repetition does not make a statement true.

There is little evidence of a national revelation, beyond the claim there was one.

There is little evidence that Einstein's last words were in German, beyond the claim that it was so. Sometimes, the verbal recording of an event is sufficient evidence to verify that event.

There is also the fact that the entire Torah is a suspect document, as we know the world is far older than dictated in that document

We're not talking about mythic history but actual history; the second link I provided explained this in its discussion of g-narratives. You've tipped your hand - you haven't read a damn thing I've sourced. Are you afraid to be convinced?

As such, the premises are completely unsupported unless you've already accepted them without evidence. I, lacking this indoctrination, can reject it outright.

You, refusing to read the argument or consider its claims, reject it outright. 0/10

To all: Can an omnipotent being prove they are omnipotent? by Dzugaviliin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

Please actually respond to the formulations of the Kuzari argument that I provided. Arguments do become more refined and correct over time, as they are argued over and articulated further.

Both societies were human. Both ate food. Both drank water and wine. Honestly, there's lots of things to compare, because humans are more or less the same regardless of culture or religion.

And yet one claimed to learn about the world through religious experience, whose verification the Kuzari argument is chiefly concerned about. The other claimed to learn about the world through scientific study, whose verification modern scientists have analyzed thoroughly.

Discounting the unique experiences and claims of different cultures is a form of modern Western colonialism through appeals to "universalism." This "universalism" is inevitably the West's own perspective. See here for a Hindu-centric critique.

Modern Jewish scholars have conceded that the Jews were never kept as slaves in Egypt, and were likely not enslaved as a race entirely. The two theories are that: a) the Jews were never enslaved at all, outside of expected tolerances given the era, or b) a group of Jews were enslaved by a kingdom that wasn't Egypt.

Wrong

We are also not sure where Mount Sinai is. We named a very large mountain Mount Sinai, but there's still no proof. That said, this is more an aside than a argument against the theory.

That's not really a response. We don't know many things about the history from that time.

This is, more or less, the atheist's perspective he argues against, minus that unusual philosopher bit. That said, he also doesn't back it up with anything of substance, which is typical of such arguments.

As I said, please read and respond to the above formulations of the argument.

To all: If the teachings of Religion A are affirmed by the mystical experience of someone from Religion B, does that increase the credibility of the mystical experience, and that Religion A is correct? by Creadvtyin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 1 point2 points

OK, so you're saying there are no images of Moses or Mohammad for example?

No, I'm saying that there is no cultural idea of Moses or Muhammad showing up to someone in a dream. There is, however, a cultural idea of Jesus showing up. This affects people.

Ms. Booth's "experience," such as it is, is so common and is present in virtually all religions, therefore it is not useful evidence

Even if we included experiences like Booth's then what we'd end up with is a very large number of similar such experiences, for all major religions. That would not point to any conclusion other than all religions have conversions or something obvious like that. In other words, too much white noise.

Why? This should discount your claim that Christianity is the correct religion by implying that all religions are valid ways to God. Or, in the frightening alternative, that they are just fantastical phenomenon of the human brain.

IIRC, essentially she met some poor Muslims who were very kind and hospitable to her, which touched her greatly and persuaded her to convert.

Asked for a simple explanation of how I, an English hack journalist, a ­single working mother, signed up to the Western media’s least-favourite religion, I suppose I would point to an intensely spiritual experience in an Iranian mosque just over a month ago.

. . .

Then came the night in the Iran­ian city of Qom, beneath the golden dome of the shrine of Fatima Mesumah (the revered ?Learned Lady’). Like the other women pilgrims, I said Allah’s name several times while holding on to the bars of Fatima’s tomb.

When I sat down, a pulse of sheer spiritual joy shot through me. Not the joy that lifts you off the ground, but the joy that gives you complete peace and contentment. I sat for a long time. Young women gathered around me talking of the ?amazing thing happening to you’.

I knew then I was no longer a tourist in Islam but a traveller inside the Ummah, the community of Islam that links all believers.

I'm not ignoring useful data. I'm excluding useless data.

You're wrong about her experience and you're wrong to discount it as "useless data."

That comment was in response to your particular criticisms of St. Paul. My point was, even assuming you are correct, it is possible from your perspective that St. Paul erred, without invalidating the truth about Jesus Christ. IOW, why reject Jesus just because you reject St. Paul or a particular religion's (e.g. Catholicism) interpretation of Jesus and his teachings?

Reject him as someone who could have been the Messiah? I only do so because he is dead; if he comes back from the dead and fulfills those prophesies, then I will gladly call him the mortal Messiah. I feel the same about the Prophet Daniel, the warleader Bar Kokhba, and the Rebbe Schneerson. They are all dead and left the job undone. If and only if they come back to fulfill the job will they be worthy of being Messiah.

I reject Paul's claim that Jesus was the son of God. I reject Paul's interpretation of Jesus' words, who clearly was speaking in the first person as God's emissary. He was quoting God when he said "before Abraham was, I am." Moses quoted God in the same fashion. Many of the Prophets did.

But then again, many other people claimed to speak for God and claimed to herald new Covenants. The only way to know for sure if Jesus or anyone else is genuine is to wait for them to fulfill the prophesies required of them.

To all: If the teachings of Religion A are affirmed by the mystical experience of someone from Religion B, does that increase the credibility of the mystical experience, and that Religion A is correct? by Creadvtyin DebateReligion

[–]Strange_Dragons 0 points1 point

Person A: has a vision of a religious figure.

Therefore, if what you say is true, then we would expect to find more cross-religious experiences by Christians in favor of other religions.

Not if you're only looking at visions of religious figures, which are not part in many religious traditions. Like I said: you're explicitly excluding other forms of religious visions that lead to conversions.

Moreover, if religions such as Judaism and Islam don't have a tradition of mystical experiences (or not to the same extent as Christians), then if they do have a mystical experience, it would be even more significant because it is even less expected.

As opposed to having a different form of mystical experience, such as Lauren Booth's "intensely spiritual experience in an Iranian mosque." You're purposely excluding consideration of data that points to alternative conclusions.

What is the relevance to the issue at hand? Are you saying Christianity cannot be the true faith because of the atrocities that have been committed in its name?

No, I am saying that Christianity is not about meeting God in just any old way. It is very much tied to adherence to a specific orthodoxy. Your appeal to an "allegiance to God, not to religion" is not applicable to Christianity, and therefore not relevant to the conclusions of your argument.