Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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Litreact.com?

• litreact.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • DomainsDB.net • Alexa • WhosOnMyServer.com

I came across the addition in the last hour to A Clean, Well-Lighted Place‎ of an external link to a review on what I would characterize as a user-driven, user-written review site, LitReact.com. I removed it and another one the same user had added, and then ran an external link search for other uses on the site. There were 37. After removing seven of them, it occurred to me that it might be worthwhile to check with others first whether my assessment of this website as an unsuitable target for external links is correct. Opinions? Largoplazo (talk) 11:21, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Interactive Human Evolution Timeline

I would have preferred to have this discussion on an individual talk page, but the link is so widespread, I doubt that is practical. Drbogdan (talk · contribs) has recently added a link to The Smithsonian's Interactive Human Evolution Timeline to the external links sections of several articles, including articles on creationism. I'm not here to have an argument about creationism vs. evolution, creationism's validity, or anything of that nature. This is simply a discussion of whether this is an appropriate external link for these articles, per the WP:EL guideline. I would argue no, on the basis that the link in question does not, as nearly as I can tell, even breach the subject of creationism. This puts it in the category of links normally to be avoided on two counts:

• Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. (Given the contentious nature of creationism articles, it is very unlikely one of them will ever be featured, but if it is, WP:DUE would ensure that it had an appropriate amount of dissenting material absent this timeline link.)
• Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject

Since the timeline link contains no information on creationism and does not explicitly try to refute creationism, it does not belong in these articles. This is the list of affected articles; there may be others where the link has been inappropriately added, but these are the ones I noticed.

• Bill Nye–Ken Ham debate
• Creation and evolution in public education
• Creation and evolution in public education in the United States
• Creation-evolution controversy
• Creationism
• Creation Museum
• Discovery Institute
• Genesis creation narrative
• Intelligent design
• Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center
• Teach the Controversy

I seek consensus, and have given my opinion as to what this consensus should be. However, I also note, per WP:ELBURDEN: "Disputed links should normally be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them." Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 16:51, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

@Acdixon: Thank you *very much* for your comments - my reference addition seems relevant to the noted articles - as possible article improvements re context - and perhaps - as a "WP:BALANCE" of views - and not at all for any other reason - however - it's *entirely* ok with me to rm/rv/mv/ce the edits - esp if there is "WP:CONSENSUS" of course - in any case - hope this helps in some way - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 17:59, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

References

@Drbogdan: Thanks for being agreeable. That's a rare commodity on these articles. I think I'll leave this discussion open for a bit to see if anyone else wants to raise issues neither of us had considered. I understand your concerns about balance, but I think that's best done in the article itself. In some people's minds, a link like this is almost an invitation to create a WP:LINKFARM, and nobody wants that! :) Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 18:06, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done Done, per no further discussion. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 18:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Drbogdan said above it is OK with him if there is consensus. I see only two people in this discussion. It was great that the discussion was opened but you too action way too soon. ("soon" in WP means "enough time to get community input") I have reverted all the removals - the edit note justifying them linked here, and there is no WP:CONSENSUS here. Jytdog (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I never said there was consensus, but at some point, "silence equals consent". This was posted on a public noticeboard two and a half weeks ago. What if nobody else ever commented? The two who did would both just sit here in agreement that a change was best but refusing to do anything about it? I'm quite content to let the recently commenced discussion play out, but let's not act like these removals were without basis. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 19:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog You and I usually see eye to eye, and for good reason; you're very smart, objective and perceptive (did you notice how I sneakily complimented myself there, too?). But I'm with Acdixon on this particular point (even if he is a heretic for using Chrome instead of Firefox). We should continue this discussion before we undo his good-faith edits. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:15, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

• Creation Museum is on my watchlist, so I just became aware of this discussion. My suggestion would be to cite it as a reference, instead of merely having it as an EL. Many of these pages have some content about Young Earth Creationism, in which disagreements with scientists are noted, so this would be a fine source to cite for the science "side". (It need not be cited as a rebuttal to YEC, just as for what scientists say.) I'm going to try to do that now at the museum page, and let's see how that works. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:03, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

In favour of removal (edit:/ or conversion to a ref where applicable). I saw the link when it was introduced in Intelligent design, and wondered what it was for. It *is* an excellent ressource in itself, but I don't see how it helps understand what ID is, or is not. ID is pretty much unconcerned with any timeline you throw at it anyway, unlike most forms of creationism. I don't think its presence is harmful, but it just feels disconnected from the article. Thus I would favour its removal from ID-related articles. (Perhaps it may be useful in Creationism, if offered as counterpoint to specific claims in the text?). Of course it should remain in Evolution and Timeline of human evolution etc. Gamall Wednesday Ida (talk) 19:14, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Tryptofish in that in many articles it can be changed from an EL to a ref. This would be any article that makes statements about human evolution (which can be sourced to that link) in the context of another subject. Any article which directly addresses the subject of human evolution (Human evolution obviously, but evolution or creation-evolution controversy are also good examples, while Intelligent design is a borderline, questionable example) should keep it as an external link, unless the article already substantially covers the information in the link. Every other article (such as Genesis creation narrative) should have it removed. So it should be removed for the most part, but I think I'm a little more liberal about what articles it can stay in than the OP. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:31, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I just move it in that way at Creation Museum, so editors can look and assess how that works. Also, in seeing it on the page, it really did strike me as a little spammy as an EL. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:35, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I just took a look, and it looks fine to me like that. I'm a little on the fence as to whether it should be removed from that page, but the 'remove' side of my internal debate is really just that it feels a little POVish. The 'keep' side is pointing out that it meets the criteria I defined above. I'm 100% skeptic, and I have a particular problem with creationism, but I really don't believe Wikipedia's purpose is to debunk. The debunking should arise naturally from the presentation of accurate, verifiable information. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't see it as "debunking". I see it as presenting both "sides", using a reliable source. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:22, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

That was kinda my point: A part of me 'feels' like I want to argue because this kinda 'feels' like debunking, but I can't come up with any good objections. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:26, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: The link actually pointed back to Creation Museum; I just fixed it Gamall Wednesday Ida (talk) 11:37, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that. I'm traveling and using someone else's computer, and it keeps making those kinds of mistakes, and I missed that one, sorry. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:28, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

FWIW - the "notion of converting the EL to a reference instead" for some articles seems worthy - and *entirely* ok with me at the moment - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Converting to refs integrated with the discourse of each article seems fine to me. I still doubt it can be made to fit in Intelligent design, though. The timeline neither elucidates claims of ID nor contradicts them (this ability to trudge along heedless of any empirical data is of course an intelligently designed aspect of ID). Maybe when discussing interpretations of the fossil record and the reliability of hominid reconstructions, eg. [1]. But this does not appear at all in the current version of the article, I think. Gamall Wednesday Ida (talk) 11:37, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Still seeing no support for this as a stand-alone EL after a month of discussion. Removed. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:23, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

You have gone through and removed all these claiming support at this board; i have again reverted you as there is no consensus on this board for removing it. Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Repeating myself, I never said I had a consensus. And I don't need a consensus to remove the link; you need one to retain it. Quoting WP:ELBURDEN: "Disputed links should normally be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them." (Emphasis mine.) You haven't offered so much as an argument for keeping this link, much less establishing a consensus to keep it. Please self-revert based on this guideline until and unless a consensus to keep this link emerges. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:11, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Again you did great opening this discussion, but now for the second time you have claimed authority to this discussion as a justification to mass delete these ELs. And for the second time, there is no basis for your actions here. Don't ever cite a discussion as a basis for an action if that action doesn't actually have consensus there. Misrepresenting discussions is WP:DISRUPTIVE behavior and people will always react negatively. Jytdog (talk) 17:18, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: This discussion is evidence that the link is disputed. WP:ELBURDEN says disputed links are excluded without a specific consensus to include them. I cite the dispute, without consensus to include, as my justification for my edit removing it. I am not being disruptive. I am acting in accord with policy. You are not. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:26, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

If there is anything resembling consensus here, it is make the EL into a ref. You didn't do that or acknowledge that. WP:CONSENSUS is the bedrock of this page and faking consensus to do what you already wanted to do, is one of the most disruptive things you can do here in WP. We have discretionary sanctions on this topic; I will check your Talk page to make sure you are aware of them. Jytdog (talk) 18:00, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I did not fake anything. I did acknowledge a lack of consensus (either way) on multiple occasions. I also was very careful that my edit summary (sample here) reflected that there was no support, much less a consensus, for including this link as an external link. If someone wants to include the link as part of a reference, as Tryptofish did in Creation Museum, they may be my guest. You'll notice I didn't counteract that action in any way. But to include the link in a list of external links in an article requires consensus to include, per WP:ELBURDEN, and in the absence of consensus to include, a disputed link is removed by default (i.e. with or without consensus to remove) per that guideline. My removal of the disputed links are correct and in accordance with the guideline; your reversions without a consensus to include are counter to the guideline and you should reverse them. And I am aware of the discretionary sanctions. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 18:31, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I for one was in favour of removal from Intelligent Design, specifically, for the reasons I stated above, and conversion to refs for most of the rest. I recall MjolnirPants also said the ID was a special case, though I can't be sure he meant it in the same way as I. I don't recall anybody arguing for the link being kept in ID. Generally I don't find Acdixon's actions in this matter very shocking, though I won't pretend to be well-versed in Wikipedia's policies. Batch removal might be a good first step -- symmetric to the batch addition of Drbogdan (talk · contribs) -- before maybe re-integrating the links individually and with care, where they are relevant. Gamall Wednesday Ida (talk) 19:24, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ ID is one of the articles I believe it belongs in. It deals directly with human evolution, so it seems relevant. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:26, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clarifying, MjolnirPants. But ID doesn't propose a timeline or anything that concrete, so I don't see how that's more relevant than anything else one might pull from Evolution. And I don't see ID as "dealing" "directly" with human evolution. Obviously ID proponents are directly motivated by it, but are careful to mostly use flagella and such in most of their arguments when not preaching to the choir. They don't necessarily reject the timeline either (again, at least publicly) but just argue that "someone" is injecting "complexity" somehow, over time. So I'd agree it's directly relevant to young-earth creationism, but ID is specifically designed (!) not to care about the timeline. (Or much else for that matter). I'm sure the link could be made relevant, but that would take work, and as a naked EL it just seems the answer to a question that was never asked. Gamall Wednesday Ida (talk) 19:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I've seen ID proponents get into human evolution more than a few times, though I don't know if it's in any of the 'official' material. The eyes are one example (they stick to human eyes for those argument, in my experience), and I've seen plenty of arguments about our intelligence and emotions. But, you make some good points, and have put me back on the fence. So consider me apathetic about it right now. I'm fine either way on the issue of this link in the ID article. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:17, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

• I vote removal if it can't be converted into a reference for particular material in the article for those articles listed. I think the expectation is that external links will take you to sites having material on the subject matter. It would help if we also had a list of the pages where its use is more on topic to contrast with the provided list. On the listed pages I visited, the following the link seemed a non-sequitur. Poodleboy (talk) 07:30, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

For contrast, I tried considering the website as an external link for Solutrean_hypothesis and anthropology page about a hypothesis of the peopling of the Americas by modern humans. It seemed out of place there, because it didn't drill down into any detail on Homo sapiens. You expect external links to relate somehow to the topic or a subset of the topic. Poodleboy (talk) 22:02, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

In favour of removal (edit:/ or conversion to a ref where applicable) - I'm sort of like Gamall Wednesday Ida @Gamall Wednesday Ida: - I've just now run into this at Objections to evolution, and discussion at Talk:Objections_to_evolution#Website_that_isn.27t_objection_-related_.3F mentioned this ELN as justifying it going there, although that article was not one of the ones listed above. The article Objections to evolution describes various kinds of objections (moral implications, impossibility, plausibility, evidence, scientific status, and scientific acceptance). This mostly pretty picture website perhaps suits an article such as Evolution and particularly Human evolution but just isn't about any of the objection types or the responses to them that are the topic of the Objections article. I've pointed out that Objections article is already better served by lead has wikilinks to History_of_evolutionary_thought and Evolution (far more visible than at the bottom) and links like Natural selection or Macroevolution show topics at the objection involving them. Think that for the Objections article WP:OFFTOPIC and WP:EL apply, particularly WP:ELNO number 13. This one isn't tightly related and guidance points to not include. Markbassett (talk) 15:51, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Recommend reject ELN as malformed -- I'm going to offer that this ELN as a whole is malformed and not serving well the topic of pasting a link in many places. (In addition to this one being not right for Objections to evolution article that this ELN just got mentioned at.) I think Acdixon @Acdixon: maybe should have another pathway conclusion instead. Some points where this just does not seem a valid ELN instance are :

1. Not a dispute resolution - looking at say Creationism, I don't see a dispute this was filed for, and WP:EL mentions this ELN as a place to answer disputes. Acdixon maybe should file a spam report instead ???
2. Bulk permission oddness - this isn't about one article that the EL process describes, this is seeking a generic discussion about putting it in 11 articles. Mechanically it's hard to view the discussion status in even single article discussions, let alone the overall status for 11 articles so this doesn't seem a viable path.
3. Lack of notification - looked at TALK for 4 of the list and there's no mention of this ELN. So this ELN seems lacking discussion from the affected article(s) editors. Seems some blowback from articles where it's gone (not all of the ones listed) so ... an evolving process of folks may see the link and may object and those that do may (or may not) find this location - so this discussion seems incomplete. It also leaves a maintenance item that later on editors at articles will not see that there was any prior discussion.
4. Lack of external inputs - Also factually this was lacking discussion from external editors and just had no inputs. I don't know that there actually are independent editors who look at this page like rfc/a has, but there weren't any seen at the top of this.
5. Ignoring EL guidance - behaving as ELN would view things against the EL guidance and this link seems not trying to draw from WP:EL for what is appropriate external links, nor taking care about hurting an article. "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense."
6. Already run amok - this ELN has already been mentioned at Talk:Objections_to_evolution#Website_that_isn.27t_objection_-related_.3F as if it were an already-decided thing and as a justification for putting the EL at an article not initially listed. It seems more a not-noticed item because nobody was notified, and lack of discussion from parties not notified parties obviously does not constitute their consensus.
7. Demonstrates LINKSPAM ? - factually this is sticking a link in many sites, which seems to fit WP:LINKSPAM. "Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed." I think this ELN is basically someone noticed a LINKSPAM occurence, who was not a party to some prior debate, and from that framework maybe he needs direction on how to handle SPAM than discussion of article-by-article or general EL principle evaluation.

Summation - bulk situation not suitable for ELN; suggest handle at individual article and individual ELN discussions, consider handling it as LINKSPAM Markbassett (talk) 17:12, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

@Markbassett: Thanks for your comments. Let me try to respond to some of them.

• I listed this at ELN because I thought it would be easier to have one centralized discussion rather than 11 decentralized ones. Perhaps this was not the venue for such a thing, and if so, I apologize for that.
• I assumed this would attract the attention of uninvolved editors in a way that talk page mentions would not, but per your point 4 above, perhaps it was a misconception that many neutral editors watch this page and get involved in discussions.
• Although the listing did not arise from a dispute, my removal of this link has twice been reverted, so it is now a dispute. Whether my starting this thread led to the dispute, or whether I just correctly anticipated that removing the link would lead to a dispute and jumped the gun by starting a discussion here is debatable, I guess. Regardless, it is now a dispute, it appears.
• Not leaving a notice on the 11 individual talk pages was a mistake, in hindsight, and one I take responsibility for.
• I am not terribly experienced with the various avenues of dispute resolution, so perhaps a LINKSPAM complaint would have been better. The term "spam" carries negative connotations that I was trying to avoid, especially since I have had no previous interaction with the other party and didn't know how they may or may not react to having their edits labeled as "spamming".
• There were, obviously, more pages where this link was added at the same time as the 11 mentioned where it may or may not be appropriate. Those I chose not to list were ones where I didn't feel qualified to comment on the appropriateness.
• All this said, I opened this discussion over a month ago, and no one has expressed much, if any, support for keeping the link as anything other than a reference, if appropriate. As I have noted above, EL guidelines hold that the disputed link should be removed in such a case, yet I have twice been reverted and admonished by User:Jytdog for taking this action, so I'm not sure how to proceed at this point. I'm open to suggestions on how to finally resolve this, since evidently nothing I've done so far has been productive. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 18:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

• Its not linkspam obviously. A bit POINTY in some cases, maybe.

In Objections to evolution there is already the template:Human timeline so the EL didn't add value. I removed it here.

Bill Nye–Ken Ham debate it was deleted by Acdixon here; i let that stand because that article already has template:Life timeline which has a link to template:Human timeline

Creation and evolution in public education i removed the EL here because that article already has template:Life timeline which has a link to template:Human timeline

Creation and evolution in public education in the United States i removed the EL here because that article already has template:Life timeline which has a link to template:Human timeline

Creation–evolution controversy - there is already the template:Human timeline so the EL didn't add value. I removed it here.

Creationism i left it, as it duplicates nothing that is there.

Creation Museum Tryptofish made it a ref. I also elevated template:Life timeline from a see also to actually appear in the criticism section. so we don't need the EL there.

Discovery Institute we have template:Life timeline in the article, so don't need the EL, so I removed it here

Genesis creation narrative there was nothing like it, so i left it

Intelligent design the article already has template:Life timeline which has a link to template:Human timeline so i removed it here

Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center had nothing like it, so i left it.

Teach the Controversy - article already has template:Life timeline which has a link to template:Human timeline so i removed it here

that about does it, i think. Jytdog (talk) 04:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog - how about removing at Objections to evolution ? The templates are there too (good in one place, odd in Probability area) along with many more relevant wikilinks more visibly shown at the related points of article ... Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:20, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I did. That is the first one on the list above. Jytdog (talk) 07:32, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog -- whups. Thanks belatedly realized. Sorry I was a few hours out of sync about where that article was, too much time editing TALK I guess. (Maybe I still had the prior rev onscreen in an open tab?) Markbassett (talk) 13:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Been out of town, so I'm just now looking at this. I don't agree with your reasoning about whether to remove the link or not from the various articles, but obviously, the result is the same in most cases, so I won't quibble about how we got there. The link remains in Creationism, Genesis creation narrative, and Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center, and I contend that it doesn't belong in any of the three. I laid out my reasoning in my original post over a month ago – the content found at the link doesn't directly mention any of these topics. In the ensuing discussion, no one has really offered a refutation to that reasoning, and some have explicitly agreed with it. I have already pointed out how that the EL guidelines call for exclusion of disputed links by default (i.e. without requiring consensus). You have twice reverted my attempts to remove the link on that basis, wrongly claiming that I need consensus to remove, and now you are asking us to unilaterally accept your logic that it can only be removed if the existing article has something else like it, an assertion with no actual backing in policy that I can see? I reject your assertion that "that about does it". This link remains disputed and should be removed per the EL guidelines. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:39, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

EL does not say that one editor disputing is enough to remove an EL; you appear to be the only person contesting the link in those three articles. Jytdog (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: On the contrary, Gamall Wednesday Ida, Poodleboy, and Markbassett !voted to remove the links or convert them to references. Markbassett further raised the possibility of deleting them as LINKSPAM. How else do you define "disputed", as used in WP:ELBURDEN? So far, no one has put forward an argument for keeping them beyond your "this article has nothing else like it". Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 16:26, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

How odd that you mention Poodleboy's support. Not a great argument. Jytdog (talk) 16:32, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

How odd that you have yet to actually engage any of my larger points. I have no idea what is odd about mentioning Poodleboy, as this discussion was my first and only interaction with him. My larger point is that the link is disputed, and that the EL guidelines say disputed links should be removed by default. You continue to ignore this. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 20:17, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘As greatly surreal as it feels to be (sort of) defending Poodleboy --- and this just after being mentioned as in agreement with Markbassett --- his two posts that I saw on this particular matter didn't seem shockingly unreasonable. (Although there ought not be a third given that ID is on the list). Just to clarify my position: I felt the link non-sequiturish in ID-related articles, on grounds that it misses the point there (I'm happy enough with the current state of ID wrt. that; I don't see what on earth the link is supposed to be doing in Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center). I was and am of course all for keeping on evolution-related articles. On old-school-creationism-related articles, I think it can become pertinent, but it would be best converted as a ref to make it clear what, if anything, it answers to. That applies to Creationism and Genesis creation narrative.

"I listed this at ELN because I thought it would be easier to have one centralized discussion rather than 11 decentralized ones." The thing is that the relevance of the link is different to each article. I think the reason this discussion is going nowhere fast not-so-fast is exactly that; it's really trying to pack a few different content discussions into one. The link, for all that it is nice and shiny, should probably not have been mass dumped like that, but all that could be generally agreed on has been done by now. My impression is that the discussion here has run its vaguely unsatisfying course and is best taken to individual articles' talk pages with specific content arguments. Gamall Wednesday Ida (talk) 19:36, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gamall Wednesday Ida: You are probably right, at this point. I had neither the time nor inclination to monitor 11 separate discussions, but now that we've cut the list to 3, individual discussions may be the best way forward. Thanks for the suggestion. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 20:17, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog and Acdixon: FWIW - as presented earlier by the OPs above - "WP:CONSENSUS" may be the best way forward with this - after all - the edit additions were made in good faith - as an improvement to the article(s) - in order to provide some context, "WP:BALANCE" & related to the articles (ie, to be more truly encyclopedic - and less, perhaps, of a pov-promotion of some sort) - otherwise - "WP:OWN", "WP:IAR" & related may apply to some extent I would think atm - which no one may want of course - in any case - hope this helps in some way - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

The link is to a page describing human evolution from the Smithsonian. It is highly reliable and directly relevant to articles discussing evolution in general and human evolution in particular, and in each of the three remaining articles there is nothing like it; it fills the purpose of providing the scientific consensus timeline that the other articles address in other ways. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid objection. We have travelled far to address the concerns and pushing to Total Victory has nothing to do with "seeking consensus", which is what he OP said they wanted to achieve here. Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog - a link waaaaay down at the bottom to pretty picture with no apparent relevance to the article that has also failed WP:ELBURDEN just does not belong. I don't think either WP:ILIKEIT nor WP:IDONTLIKEIT are relevant, it is a matter of relevant to the topic and that just cannot be done as a blanket ELN for many articles with at least one of them not even identified- and I think the discussion is kind of tending towards that move discussion to each individual article. For the presentation though I will add that using EL seems poor -- if there is some section of an article that this *is* relevant to, it is better to edit and convert to a ref AT THAT PART that gives some meaning about why it is shown and not give an odd EL bumpersticker that lacks any obvious connection to the text. We've already said it fits Human evolution, and maybe a part of Evolution -- but most of this just looks like it ran amok. As it is, this whole mess mostly looked like it should have been reported as WP:LINKSPAM. So -- kill this ELN with a 'reject blanket topic, do at individual page discussions', and at each article show a relevance to the article topic in a usable way or accept that the pretty picture does not fit into that article and skip it. Markbassett (talk) 00:49, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I have no idea what your first sentence is referring to. Jytdog (talk) 02:53, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog - unpacking my first sentence ("a link waaaaay down at the bottom to pretty picture with no apparent relevance to the article that has also failed WP:ELBURDEN just does not belong."): This is to convey (1) EL placement is many screens down on articles of length circa 20 to 60 screens in this case so unlikely to be seen/useful/connected to anywhere of text; (2) 'pretty picture' characterizing it dismissively as mostly a pretty picture (some ability to drill across site) with 'pretty' framing it as visual appeal rather than textual/numerical informative, relevant, or value to topic; and (3) ELBURDEN reminder that discussions so far have repeatedly covered that it has not met WP:ELBURDEN and WP guidance says to not include. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:34, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, i think i see. you simply mean "the EL we are discussing". Is that correct? Jytdog (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Are PDFs allowed in "Further reading" or "External links" sections?

WP:ELNO #8 says:

Direct links to documents that require external applications or plugins (such as Flash or Java) to view the content, unless the article is about such file formats.

An editor told me that a particular link in a "Further reading" section is forbidden because it goes to a PDF, among other reasons:[2]

ELNO #8 is EL's should not be "Direct links to documents that require external applications or plugins." PDFs are documents that require an external application or a plugin. "Common" is not an exception. It fails #8 unequivocally.[3]

I had argued that PDFs are very common and that the policy wasn't referring to them. Who's right? Felsic2 (talk) 23:57, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm with that other editor. If you want to change the policy, you need to change the policy; but there's no "except for .pdfs, which are common nowadays" exception. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policies never cease to amaze! I read this talk page entry: Wikipedia_talk:External_links/Archive_33#PDFs_should_be_exempt_from_no-link_rule, which seems to find agreement that linking to a non-PDF page that links to the PDF would be OK. For example, this. Is that right? Felsic2 (talk) 00:16, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Then that is ridiculous and needs to be fixed ASAP. Wikipedia_talk:External_links#PDFs_-_Acceptable_or_not.3F Andy Dingley (talk) 00:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm the "other editor" and the reasoning is pretty straightforward. Things like videos and PDFs can be long and complicated and not subject to scrutiny. EL is not a repository for documents that fail WP:RS or WP:BLP so we don't link to PDF's or videos even if they are a common format. If they contain information for the article topic, make them a source (i.e. pass WP:RS) and cover it in the article. In the case, the PDF is from a partisan political advocacy organization that has written an unreviewed report that advances their particular political view. It's disallowed on a number of reasons, the format of the link being just one. --DHeyward (talk) 01:51, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Nonsense. PDFs are perfectly acceptable and widely linked in citations and external links in many, many Wikipedia articles. PDF readers are ubiquitous. Guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive. - MrX 02:39, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Orangemike, WP:EL is a guideline, not a policy. It's best treated with common sense.- MrX 02:42, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

The guidelines exist for a reason. No one cares if you link to a pdf on elementary particles that is reproduced from nature.org. Everyone should should care if an external link is to a Trump campaign whitepaper on Islam. Direct linking to the pdf hides the source. The practice recommended is to link to the html page that references the pdf. Very likely that a link to an official nature.org page is okay. Unlikely that a external link to a partisan political page or press release is okay. Going directly to the pdf doesn't cure the parent problem and obscures it. It's one of the reasons the guideline exists. --DHeyward (talk) 11:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think we can firmly agree that editorial discretion is required. Undesirable links to press releases, fan sites, and political promotions is covered elsewhere in guideline and in WP:NOT. The format of the linked information should be far less of a concern, and based on widespread practice, I believe it is.- MrX 15:34, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Which makes the guideline stand as is with PDFs in the ELNO category and the burden for exception is on the editor adding it. If the only outside reference to a PDF is a press release, bypassing the guidelines and WP:NOT to directly link to a pdf is what ELNO is, in part, stopping. The simple html page that reference the pdf is the link that needs to be in EL section and evaluated. Seems pretty common sense. --DHeyward (talk) 17:33, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Common sense would suggest that if a PDF document is hosted on, let's say, a government or university server, there's no problem linking to it. This is done frequently on enwiki and it hasn't caused a meltdown yet. - MrX 17:48, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

What particularly bothers me is links to PDFs which are purportedly scans of newspaper and magazine articles, etc., but which we have no way of authenticating. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘That concerns me as well. Plus the possible copyvio issues. Doug Weller talk 19:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with MrX: If there's any doubt about the pdf contents, look to the website hosting it for evidence they have reviewed the content. --Ronz (talk) 17:25, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

iPLayer links

Issue 1

From Sept 1st 2016, BBC iplayer is a de-facto subscription only service; With respect to TV content, you now apparently need a TV License to watch BBC TV content, regardless of whether its live, catch up or an online streamed show, not to mention that a large proportion of the content is geo-blocked for copyright reasons.

Whilst Wikipedia does not actively prevent the addition of links to subscription only or paywalled sites, contributors should in my view be discouraged from adding direct links to paywalled content, when alternative links to non-paywalled content or portions of the site could be just as easily provided.

Issue 2

Iplayer links are NOT stable, and typically expire after about 14-28 days, the links that expire redirecting to a main programme page, or to a holding page saying a particular episode is "not available".

Issue 3

Iplayer as of Sept 2016, still apparently needs the proprietary Adobe Flash plugin in some circumstances, which is not available for some users of "free-software". I've also found that Flash is somewhat buggy when used with older OS (like XP).

Given both the above issues, direct iPlayer links should be vigorously discouraged in favour of more stable and reliable links an effort should be made to replace or remove the existing links unless absolutely needed, in which case they should be marked as "subscription only" There is a currently disabled Edit Filter (no 794) for tracking the addition of iPlayer links. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:56, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Those sound like good reasons to avoid the links and remove the current ones, per WP:ELNO#EL6 and WP:ELNO#EL7. - MrX 22:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

I Love Comix Archive

User:Lilreader has been adding or adjusting links External links to something called the I Love Comix Archive, whose main page requires registration, though Lilreader has been editing that fact out.

From what I can tell, I Love Comix Archive contains runs of copyrighted comic strips. Should this site be allowed as an EL? --Tenebrae (talk) 20:24, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

which someone is illegally adding to a cloud storage site. No. Doug Weller talk 09:03, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like a straightforward copyright violation to me. Seems easy to assume good faith with regard to Lilreader, though. If I didn't know to be wary of copyright, I might think it's a useful resource to add, too. The registration and generality of the links don't seem to be of much concern, as I could access everything I tried to access without being asked to register, and the changes (vs. additions) to the URLs were because the URL structure looks to have changed (should've changed it to the new direct link rather than the base domain, but meh). I went ahead and removed all instances linked from the linksearch, aside from where it's linked from a fair use file, and aside from Star Trek (comics) where it's used in a citation rather than in the external links section. Still problematic, of course, but it should probably be replaced with a citation of the comic strip itself and/or a better link. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:COPYVIOEL outside Mainspace

Fellow editors, Apologies if this is out of scope for this noticeboard. I have been removing some links to external webpages with copyright violations from mainspace articles (per WP:COPYVIOEL); there are also a number of links to the same webpages in Talk, User talk and Wikipedia namespaces. See [4]. Do we also need to remove links from these namespaces? Many thanks in advance for any response. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 07:41, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

If it is clear that the linked page is a copyright violation, then yes the links should be removed from everywhere they occur. On discussion pages, it is often useful to leave an explanatory note explaining why previously posted content has been removed. Obviously, if a discussion page is in the process of trying to come to an agreement about whether a link violates copyright, then it is generally acceptable to leave the link in place while the discussion is ongoing. Dragons flight (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

@Dragons flight: Thanks. Appreciate the advice. I have removed a number of known copyvio links from non-Mainspace; and will be working through the rest of the links in the next week or so. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 14:35, 13 September 2016 (UTC)