"if you do bad, you'll see me two more times"
When the Cowboy stands at Dianes bedroom door smiling and says "Wake up pretty lady" we are shown the girl on the bed thats in the black dress/nightgown but she is not dead and the mattress is not deteriorated etc. Then it shows the Cowboy again in the doorway not smiling and then shows the girl as a decomposed corpse. I think this has something to do with the two more times quote. I know some think the body is Diane some Camilla some have other opinions. Any ideas on how this ties in?
Nov 17, 2001 1:09 PM
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Damn, I almost forgot about that part! I meant to post that as a question myself. I could never figure out for the life of me why the cowboy appeared twice, once to wake her up, and once to view the corpse (unsuprised,at that). Hopefully someone will come forward and unravel this troubling enigma.
Nov 17, 2001 5:49 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by richdubbya
When the Cowboy stands at Dianes bedroom door smiling and says "Wake up pretty lady" we are shown the girl on the bed thats in the black dress/nightgown but she is not dead and the mattress is not deteriorated etc. Then it shows the Cowboy again in the doorway not smiling and then shows the girl as a decomposed corpse. I think this has something to do with the two more times quote. I know some think the body is Diane some Camilla some have other opinions. Any ideas on how this ties in? [/QUOTE]
The interpretation that the first 2/3rds of movie is Diane's
dream-fantasy seems to me, the most satisfying, and allow
a meaningful explanation of almost all the events in the movie.
The cowboy character is still puzzling me,
and I'm trying to clarify in my mind
the significance of the cowboy,
and how often Adam (or Diane) sees him.
I have read in the Sight and Sound magazine article
- and it has been said in this forum - that the
Cowboy is Diane's pimp, although it's not clear to me why
Diane would decide to become a prostitute, if she had money
(at least $50,000) inherited from her Aunt.
I tend to think that he was just someone Diane
saw at the party and her subconscious retained
because he looked unusual.
The cowboy appears in these scenes
(in the order they appear in the film):
1. Talking to Adam at night.(dream)
2. In the doorway, saying wake up pretty lady - (reality)
3. In the doorway, turning away, unsmiling (dream)
4. At the dinner party, leaving the room - (reality)
The chronological order of events is: 4 - 1 - 2 - 3
This seems to indicate that the cowboy appears to
Diane twice after scene 1, but does she actually see him
in scene 2? Since she is still asleep (until she is woken
up by the neighbour knocking on the door later) she shouldn't be able to see him.
There is no scene where Adam sees the cowboy again.
About this sequence,
1. Girl on bed (sleeping) *
2. Cowboy in doorway, says 'Wake up pretty lady' *
3. Girl on bed (decomposing corpse)
4. Cowboy, not smiling, turns away.
After the first and second viewing of the film,
it seemed to me that
Scenes 1 and 2 are from *real* life, and show Diane
sleeping near the end of her dream.
Scenes 3 and 4 are the last scenes in Diane's dream.
But if 2 is from real life, this would indicate that
the cowboy IS Diane's pimp, and she is a prostitute -
and that Diane only sees him once.
Now if scene 2 was part of the dream, then Diane sees the
cowboy twice in her dream, which makes sense since
she has DONE BAD.
When the Cowboy stands at Dianes bedroom door smiling and says "Wake up pretty lady" we are shown the girl on the bed thats in the black dress/nightgown but she is not dead and the mattress is not deteriorated etc. Then it shows the Cowboy again in the doorway not smiling and then shows the girl as a decomposed corpse. I think this has something to do with the two more times quote. I know some think the body is Diane some Camilla some have other opinions. Any ideas on how this ties in? [/QUOTE]
The interpretation that the first 2/3rds of movie is Diane's
dream-fantasy seems to me, the most satisfying, and allow
a meaningful explanation of almost all the events in the movie.
The cowboy character is still puzzling me,
and I'm trying to clarify in my mind
the significance of the cowboy,
and how often Adam (or Diane) sees him.
I have read in the Sight and Sound magazine article
- and it has been said in this forum - that the
Cowboy is Diane's pimp, although it's not clear to me why
Diane would decide to become a prostitute, if she had money
(at least $50,000) inherited from her Aunt.
I tend to think that he was just someone Diane
saw at the party and her subconscious retained
because he looked unusual.
The cowboy appears in these scenes
(in the order they appear in the film):
1. Talking to Adam at night.(dream)
2. In the doorway, saying wake up pretty lady - (reality)
3. In the doorway, turning away, unsmiling (dream)
4. At the dinner party, leaving the room - (reality)
The chronological order of events is: 4 - 1 - 2 - 3
This seems to indicate that the cowboy appears to
Diane twice after scene 1, but does she actually see him
in scene 2? Since she is still asleep (until she is woken
up by the neighbour knocking on the door later) she shouldn't be able to see him.
There is no scene where Adam sees the cowboy again.
About this sequence,
1. Girl on bed (sleeping) *
2. Cowboy in doorway, says 'Wake up pretty lady' *
3. Girl on bed (decomposing corpse)
4. Cowboy, not smiling, turns away.
After the first and second viewing of the film,
it seemed to me that
Scenes 1 and 2 are from *real* life, and show Diane
sleeping near the end of her dream.
Scenes 3 and 4 are the last scenes in Diane's dream.
But if 2 is from real life, this would indicate that
the cowboy IS Diane's pimp, and she is a prostitute -
and that Diane only sees him once.
Now if scene 2 was part of the dream, then Diane sees the
cowboy twice in her dream, which makes sense since
she has DONE BAD.
Jan 28, 2002 7:03 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dotdotdot
I have read in the Sight and Sound magazine article
- and it has been said in this forum - that the
Cowboy is Diane's pimp, although it's not clear to me why
Diane would decide to become a prostitute, if she had money
(at least $50,000) inherited from her Aunt.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, she wouldn't. But Diane did have at least $50,000. Therefore, Diane was not a prostitute or a waitress. QED.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dotdotdot
I tend to think that he was just someone Diane
saw at the party and her subconscious retained
because he looked unusual.[/QUOTE]
That is correct. But it does not mean that the Cowboy has no significance in the dream.
Question for you, Dot...
What is it that is good if seen once, but bad if seen twice?
Answer this question and you will know who or (more correctly) what the Cowboy represents.
Once this question is answered, it is not too hard to represent what the monster represents. He is more or less the opposite of the Cowboy.
When you are finished thinking about it, here are the answers:
The Cowboy represents:
[spoiler]Diane's conscience aka "inner good" aka Godly inclinations.[/spoiler]
The monster represents:
[spoiler]Diane's evil inclinations aka "inner demons" aka Satan and his temptations (and all his empty promises)[/spoiler]
I have read in the Sight and Sound magazine article
- and it has been said in this forum - that the
Cowboy is Diane's pimp, although it's not clear to me why
Diane would decide to become a prostitute, if she had money
(at least $50,000) inherited from her Aunt.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, she wouldn't. But Diane did have at least $50,000. Therefore, Diane was not a prostitute or a waitress. QED.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dotdotdot
I tend to think that he was just someone Diane
saw at the party and her subconscious retained
because he looked unusual.[/QUOTE]
That is correct. But it does not mean that the Cowboy has no significance in the dream.
Question for you, Dot...
What is it that is good if seen once, but bad if seen twice?
Answer this question and you will know who or (more correctly) what the Cowboy represents.
Once this question is answered, it is not too hard to represent what the monster represents. He is more or less the opposite of the Cowboy.
When you are finished thinking about it, here are the answers:
The Cowboy represents:
[spoiler]Diane's conscience aka "inner good" aka Godly inclinations.[/spoiler]
The monster represents:
[spoiler]Diane's evil inclinations aka "inner demons" aka Satan and his temptations (and all his empty promises)[/spoiler]
Jan 28, 2002 7:22 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dotdotdot
About this sequence,
1. Girl on bed (sleeping) *
2. Cowboy in doorway, says 'Wake up pretty lady' *
3. Girl on bed (decomposing corpse)
4. Cowboy, not smiling, turns away.
After the first and second viewing of the film,
it seemed to me that
Scenes 1 and 2 are from *real* life, and show Diane
sleeping near the end of her dream.
Scenes 3 and 4 are the last scenes in Diane's dream.
But if 2 is from real life, this would indicate that
the cowboy IS Diane's pimp, and she is a prostitute -
and that Diane only sees him once.
Now if scene 2 was part of the dream, then Diane sees the
cowboy twice in her dream, which makes sense since
she has DONE BAD. [/QUOTE]
I just had the thought that she could have dreamt the whole sequence 1-4, and so sees the cowboy twice in her dream, and so she could be a prostitute.
The cowboy is smiling the first time he appears because in Diane's dream at this point there is still a chance that she has done good, but then her awareness of reality intrudes (in the form of the dead girl - representing Dianes conscience?) and he is not smiling the second time because Diane has done bad. Now there is no way she can go back to her fantasy, and she is finally woken up by the sound of her neighbour banging on her door.
About this sequence,
1. Girl on bed (sleeping) *
2. Cowboy in doorway, says 'Wake up pretty lady' *
3. Girl on bed (decomposing corpse)
4. Cowboy, not smiling, turns away.
After the first and second viewing of the film,
it seemed to me that
Scenes 1 and 2 are from *real* life, and show Diane
sleeping near the end of her dream.
Scenes 3 and 4 are the last scenes in Diane's dream.
But if 2 is from real life, this would indicate that
the cowboy IS Diane's pimp, and she is a prostitute -
and that Diane only sees him once.
Now if scene 2 was part of the dream, then Diane sees the
cowboy twice in her dream, which makes sense since
she has DONE BAD. [/QUOTE]
I just had the thought that she could have dreamt the whole sequence 1-4, and so sees the cowboy twice in her dream, and so she could be a prostitute.
The cowboy is smiling the first time he appears because in Diane's dream at this point there is still a chance that she has done good, but then her awareness of reality intrudes (in the form of the dead girl - representing Dianes conscience?) and he is not smiling the second time because Diane has done bad. Now there is no way she can go back to her fantasy, and she is finally woken up by the sound of her neighbour banging on her door.
Jan 29, 2002 12:31 AM
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What I was getting at is that if your conscience visits you, that's good. But if you ignore your conscience, then it will come back a second time in the form of guilt. Which means that you have done wrong. And that's bad.
Given that (a) the Cowboy was lecturing Adam in the corral about morality, (b) Adam represents Dianne in several other dream scenes, and (c) this whole thing is a guilt dream to begin with...
It just seemed like a non-literal interpretation of "see" allowed all of the pieces to fit together. In other words, in the corral Diane was simply getting a lecture from her conscience.
Given that (a) the Cowboy was lecturing Adam in the corral about morality, (b) Adam represents Dianne in several other dream scenes, and (c) this whole thing is a guilt dream to begin with...
It just seemed like a non-literal interpretation of "see" allowed all of the pieces to fit together. In other words, in the corral Diane was simply getting a lecture from her conscience.
Jan 29, 2002 1:18 AM
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[QUOTE]Damn, I almost forgot about that part! I meant to post that as a question myself. I could never figure out for the life of me why the cowboy appeared twice, once to wake her up, and once to view the corpse (unsuprised,at that). Hopefully someone will come forward and unravel this troubling enigma.[/QUOTE]
I think that both times the cowboy came to wake her up they were in reality...but two different realities. He came once just to wake her up but the second time he came (he warned if he came twice it would not be something good) she was already dead.
I do agree that the cowboy represents, in some ways, Diane's conscience, and that Diane was the director at the corral (and every point after he sees his wife in bed with another man and gets pink paint on him) talking to her consciene. The cowboy was warning her to change her attitude, to not go through with Camilla's murder or he (her conscience that was already so full of hatred, guilt, and confusion due to her sexual abuse as a child) would make her pay a price. Her conscience did make her pay a price as it forced her to hallucinate visions of her grandparents and ultimately kill herself.
I think that both times the cowboy came to wake her up they were in reality...but two different realities. He came once just to wake her up but the second time he came (he warned if he came twice it would not be something good) she was already dead.
I do agree that the cowboy represents, in some ways, Diane's conscience, and that Diane was the director at the corral (and every point after he sees his wife in bed with another man and gets pink paint on him) talking to her consciene. The cowboy was warning her to change her attitude, to not go through with Camilla's murder or he (her conscience that was already so full of hatred, guilt, and confusion due to her sexual abuse as a child) would make her pay a price. Her conscience did make her pay a price as it forced her to hallucinate visions of her grandparents and ultimately kill herself.
Jan 29, 2002 12:22 PM
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Diane sees the Cowboy twicw why she is awaking because she has done bad by having Camilla Killed. The felllow at the party is most likely not the same guy as Diane does not see his face. She relates to him as her inner good in the dream, becuase when she sees him in reality he is going opposite of the blonde girl who she just viewed as being evil for kissing with Camilla. The Cowboy s just her Inner yin(goodness) sybolized in the dream to offset her inner yang(evil) who is symbolized by the lady behind the diner.
The dual meaning of the Cowboy is the warning to Adam, He tells Adam to pick the girl in the picture but since the cowboy is really Diane in the dream since he really meant to pick Betty. At the Audition scene Betty comes in and Adam gets a look of fear in his eyes/ why? Because even though we see Betty he sees The Cowboy in the dream sense of things. He sees Betty(cowboy) once picks Camilla Betty suddenly leaves and he looks back and sees Betty twice. Meaning he still has picked the wrong girl. Betty runs out and the dream starts to unravel
The dual meaning of the Cowboy is the warning to Adam, He tells Adam to pick the girl in the picture but since the cowboy is really Diane in the dream since he really meant to pick Betty. At the Audition scene Betty comes in and Adam gets a look of fear in his eyes/ why? Because even though we see Betty he sees The Cowboy in the dream sense of things. He sees Betty(cowboy) once picks Camilla Betty suddenly leaves and he looks back and sees Betty twice. Meaning he still has picked the wrong girl. Betty runs out and the dream starts to unravel
Jan 29, 2002 12:31 PM
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fearfactory wrote1311:
[QUOTE]The dual meaning of the Cowboy is the warning to Adam, He tells Adam to pick the girl in the picture but since the cowboy is really Diane in the dream since he really meant to pick Betty. At the Audition scene Betty comes in and Adam gets a look of fear in his eyes/ why? Because even though we see Betty he sees The Cowboy in the dream sense of things. He sees Betty(cowboy) once picks Camilla Betty suddenly leaves and he looks back and sees Betty twice. Meaning he still has picked the wrong girl. Betty runs out and the dream starts to unravel[/QUOTE]
The cowboy is the one part giving me the most issues (is he her pimp, her conscience, etc.). I think he is her conscience but I'm not sure why at the corral he tells Adam (who is actually Diane) that he must pick "this" girl for his picture. What does this represent in reality. Who is Diane supposed to pick and why?
Ahh, so many thoughts flying around my head! Can't wait to get home and see this for a second time!
[QUOTE]The dual meaning of the Cowboy is the warning to Adam, He tells Adam to pick the girl in the picture but since the cowboy is really Diane in the dream since he really meant to pick Betty. At the Audition scene Betty comes in and Adam gets a look of fear in his eyes/ why? Because even though we see Betty he sees The Cowboy in the dream sense of things. He sees Betty(cowboy) once picks Camilla Betty suddenly leaves and he looks back and sees Betty twice. Meaning he still has picked the wrong girl. Betty runs out and the dream starts to unravel[/QUOTE]
The cowboy is the one part giving me the most issues (is he her pimp, her conscience, etc.). I think he is her conscience but I'm not sure why at the corral he tells Adam (who is actually Diane) that he must pick "this" girl for his picture. What does this represent in reality. Who is Diane supposed to pick and why?
Ahh, so many thoughts flying around my head! Can't wait to get home and see this for a second time!
Jan 29, 2002 12:55 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
fearfactory wrote1311:
The cowboy is the one part giving me the most issues (is he her pimp, her conscience, etc.). I think he is her conscience but I'm not sure why at the corral he tells Adam (who is actually Diane) that he must pick "this" girl for his picture. What does this represent in reality. Who is Diane supposed to pick and why?
Ahh, so many thoughts flying around my head! Can't wait to get home and see this for a second time! [/QUOTE]
The Cowboy is totally a dream character diane is still dreaming when he says wake up pretty girl. Adam is not Diane What gave you that idea? Diane is only Betty, in the dream and the cowboy and lady behind the diner are symbolizations of her inner yin and yang. Of course Diane controls some of the actions of th eothe rcharacters cause it is her dream, but remember she cant control everything or else the dream would never have spun out of control. I am curious as to why you think Adam is Diane?
fearfactory wrote1311:
The cowboy is the one part giving me the most issues (is he her pimp, her conscience, etc.). I think he is her conscience but I'm not sure why at the corral he tells Adam (who is actually Diane) that he must pick "this" girl for his picture. What does this represent in reality. Who is Diane supposed to pick and why?
Ahh, so many thoughts flying around my head! Can't wait to get home and see this for a second time! [/QUOTE]
The Cowboy is totally a dream character diane is still dreaming when he says wake up pretty girl. Adam is not Diane What gave you that idea? Diane is only Betty, in the dream and the cowboy and lady behind the diner are symbolizations of her inner yin and yang. Of course Diane controls some of the actions of th eothe rcharacters cause it is her dream, but remember she cant control everything or else the dream would never have spun out of control. I am curious as to why you think Adam is Diane?
Jan 29, 2002 1:01 PM
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fearfactory1311 wrote:
[QUOTE] I am curious as to why you think Adam is Diane?[/QUOTE]
This is just part of a theory I've been reading about in this forum. The idea that in the dream Diane is represented not just in Betty but at times in several other characters (such as the "eyebrow" man). From what I've read (and this makes sense to me) Adam is actually Diane in the part where Adam walks in and finds his wife sleeping with another man. This represents Diane "walking in" on her abusive past and thinking about/dealing with it. That's why his wife says something like "Why are YOU here?" and the guy says "It's best not to think about it" or "It's best to forget about it. In this scene Adam is actually Diane (I think)....that's also the reason he gets the pink paint all over his jacket. Pink is a feminine color and I think Lynch may have used that to show that Adam is Diane while he has the pink paint on his jacket (or at least in that ONE scene...otherwise what does that scene have to do with Adam in real life?)
I also wouldn't see the significance of Adam going to see the cowboy (diane's conscience)...it makes more sense for Diane's conscience to be sending a message (the one/two times thing) to herself...not to Adam.
I've only seen MD once two days ago and I'd love to have tons of feedback before I see it again so feel free to tear this apart (as if you really need to ask people to do that in this forum;) )
Anyway, I'd love to hear your (or anyone's) theory about the cowboy telling Adam to pick the specific actress for the part...
[QUOTE] I am curious as to why you think Adam is Diane?[/QUOTE]
This is just part of a theory I've been reading about in this forum. The idea that in the dream Diane is represented not just in Betty but at times in several other characters (such as the "eyebrow" man). From what I've read (and this makes sense to me) Adam is actually Diane in the part where Adam walks in and finds his wife sleeping with another man. This represents Diane "walking in" on her abusive past and thinking about/dealing with it. That's why his wife says something like "Why are YOU here?" and the guy says "It's best not to think about it" or "It's best to forget about it. In this scene Adam is actually Diane (I think)....that's also the reason he gets the pink paint all over his jacket. Pink is a feminine color and I think Lynch may have used that to show that Adam is Diane while he has the pink paint on his jacket (or at least in that ONE scene...otherwise what does that scene have to do with Adam in real life?)
I also wouldn't see the significance of Adam going to see the cowboy (diane's conscience)...it makes more sense for Diane's conscience to be sending a message (the one/two times thing) to herself...not to Adam.
I've only seen MD once two days ago and I'd love to have tons of feedback before I see it again so feel free to tear this apart (as if you really need to ask people to do that in this forum;) )
Anyway, I'd love to hear your (or anyone's) theory about the cowboy telling Adam to pick the specific actress for the part...
Jan 29, 2002 1:28 PM
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The Adam character is the one Diane leashes her vengence upon, she ruins his life in the dream by almost having his picture shut down and making wis wife kick him out.(which is opposite if real life where he kicked her out) She does this becuase she blames Adam for stealing away Camilla. I'm not sure what you have been reading but in my opinion Diane is Betty and her inner conciense is divided between cowboy and lady behind the diner.
Ada, goes and sees Cowboy, Why? Because Diane wants control in the dream, control over a director specifiacally. Its now like Adam is coming to meet her for an "audition"
Cowboy tells her to pick the girl in the picture who is (dream Camilla, not the real Camilla) becuase Diane is trying to keep Rita who is the real Camilla all to herself in the dream. Its like she figures if Camiila doesnt get that part in real life she would still be with her, so in the dream she subsitutes the real Camilla(rita) with the blonde from the party.
Your thoughts behind the dialouge from the cheating wife and pool man are correct, and that is why Diane dreams the mob guy punishing them because even though she hates Adam she hates cheaters worse. But ultimitely Adam is a seperate entitiy then Diane in the dream.
My other theory in the girl in the picture is that Diane wanted to be her in real life because she is now with Camilla in a way( i assume Adam doesnt care if she has a female lover on the side) So Diane subsitutes her face accidently as a picture of her in the meeting with the mobsters. This would beyyer Validate my point that Adam was supposed to pick Betty.
Did you read my analysis on the Eyebrow guy as he is now being called? I think that is the best way to fill in that scene, that was nothing more than dianes inner evil killing the man who seen her hire the hitman.
All dialouge has something to do with dianes thoughts, but I feel she is not actually the Adam chracter or any othe besides the three i mentioned.
Ada, goes and sees Cowboy, Why? Because Diane wants control in the dream, control over a director specifiacally. Its now like Adam is coming to meet her for an "audition"
Cowboy tells her to pick the girl in the picture who is (dream Camilla, not the real Camilla) becuase Diane is trying to keep Rita who is the real Camilla all to herself in the dream. Its like she figures if Camiila doesnt get that part in real life she would still be with her, so in the dream she subsitutes the real Camilla(rita) with the blonde from the party.
Your thoughts behind the dialouge from the cheating wife and pool man are correct, and that is why Diane dreams the mob guy punishing them because even though she hates Adam she hates cheaters worse. But ultimitely Adam is a seperate entitiy then Diane in the dream.
My other theory in the girl in the picture is that Diane wanted to be her in real life because she is now with Camilla in a way( i assume Adam doesnt care if she has a female lover on the side) So Diane subsitutes her face accidently as a picture of her in the meeting with the mobsters. This would beyyer Validate my point that Adam was supposed to pick Betty.
Did you read my analysis on the Eyebrow guy as he is now being called? I think that is the best way to fill in that scene, that was nothing more than dianes inner evil killing the man who seen her hire the hitman.
All dialouge has something to do with dianes thoughts, but I feel she is not actually the Adam chracter or any othe besides the three i mentioned.
Jan 29, 2002 1:49 PM
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Ok, I think I agree with you that Adam is always Adam in the dream (especially under the thinking that Diane is just continuously punishing him throughout the dream). However, the entire situation of Adam finding his wife cheating represents in some way Diane having to confront her abusive past. The scene has a dual purpose - 1)to punish/humiliate Adam and 2)to represent the time in which Diane must confront her past.
It makes sense why eyebrow guy is killed in the dream (b/c he was the witness to her hiring the hitman) but during the conversation b/w eyebrow guy and his shrink or lover (not sure which one i buy into yet) diane was the eyebrow guy. She was talking to someone she looked up to (again, still not sure about that either).
This is my thinking so far...but with all the ideas floating around in my head, very little is concrete yet.
It makes sense why eyebrow guy is killed in the dream (b/c he was the witness to her hiring the hitman) but during the conversation b/w eyebrow guy and his shrink or lover (not sure which one i buy into yet) diane was the eyebrow guy. She was talking to someone she looked up to (again, still not sure about that either).
This is my thinking so far...but with all the ideas floating around in my head, very little is concrete yet.
Jan 29, 2002 2:17 PM
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By the way, when the cowboy says "Wake up, pretty girl," we're still in the dream. Granted, the dream is ending, but there's not really a cowboy there opening her door. Watch it again, it's all too clear.
Jan 29, 2002 5:45 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
The cowboy was warning her to change her attitude, to not go through with Camilla's murder or he (her conscience that was already so full of hatred, guilt, and confusion due to her sexual abuse as a child) would make her pay a price. Her conscience did make her pay a price as it forced her to hallucinate visions of her grandparents and ultimately kill herself. [/QUOTE]
Thank you, TBickle. Dianne also had hallucinatory visions of Camilla in a red silk nightgown -- once in the kitchen and once at the door.
My only quibble with you might be with respect to the meaning of the Cowboy's warning and change-of-attitude speech in the corral. It might simply have been that Dianne should confess to ordering Camilla's murder or she was going to pay the price for the rest of her life -- in the form of repeated visits from her guilty conscience (i.e., the Cowboy)?
The cowboy was warning her to change her attitude, to not go through with Camilla's murder or he (her conscience that was already so full of hatred, guilt, and confusion due to her sexual abuse as a child) would make her pay a price. Her conscience did make her pay a price as it forced her to hallucinate visions of her grandparents and ultimately kill herself. [/QUOTE]
Thank you, TBickle. Dianne also had hallucinatory visions of Camilla in a red silk nightgown -- once in the kitchen and once at the door.
My only quibble with you might be with respect to the meaning of the Cowboy's warning and change-of-attitude speech in the corral. It might simply have been that Dianne should confess to ordering Camilla's murder or she was going to pay the price for the rest of her life -- in the form of repeated visits from her guilty conscience (i.e., the Cowboy)?
Jan 29, 2002 6:51 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
The cowboy is the one part giving me the most issues (is he her pimp, her conscience, etc.). I think he is her conscience but I'm not sure why at the corral he tells Adam (who is actually Diane) that he must pick "this" girl for his picture. What does this represent in reality. Who is Diane supposed to pick and why?[/QUOTE]
The answer can be found by remembering that this is a guilt dream. Dianne's conscience is telling her that she owes a lot to Camilla and should not have had Camilla killed. In other words, the Cowboy is telling Dianne that she needs to "make it up to" Camilla Rhodes somehow. In other words, Dianne "owes her one."
Also, there is the whole other level of interpretation, in which Camilla gets the role in TSNY because of back-room deals rather than talent.
The cowboy is the one part giving me the most issues (is he her pimp, her conscience, etc.). I think he is her conscience but I'm not sure why at the corral he tells Adam (who is actually Diane) that he must pick "this" girl for his picture. What does this represent in reality. Who is Diane supposed to pick and why?[/QUOTE]
The answer can be found by remembering that this is a guilt dream. Dianne's conscience is telling her that she owes a lot to Camilla and should not have had Camilla killed. In other words, the Cowboy is telling Dianne that she needs to "make it up to" Camilla Rhodes somehow. In other words, Dianne "owes her one."
Also, there is the whole other level of interpretation, in which Camilla gets the role in TSNY because of back-room deals rather than talent.
Jan 29, 2002 7:07 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
This is just part of a theory I've been reading about in this forum. The idea that in the dream Diane is represented not just in Betty but at times in several other characters (such as the "eyebrow" man).[/QUOTE]
Here is a link to an article that supports this theory, just in case you haven't seen it yet, TBickle. Click Here. The part about Adam representing Dianne is on page 3 (page 5 in the print version).
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
I also wouldn't see the significance of Adam going to see the cowboy (diane's conscience)...it makes more sense for Diane's conscience to be sending a message (the one/two times thing) to herself...not to Adam.[/QUOTE]
Also don't forget Adam's visit from Cookie. That represents the detectives knocking on Dianne's door.
Note: DOORS are very important in this film! Just about every time a door opens, Dianne is asked to come to grips with something.
For example, Louise Bonner comes to the door and tells Dianne to "Get rid of it." And the doors to the Blue Boxes reveal all kinds of things: Camilla's death, abusers, etc.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
Anyway, I'd love to hear your (or anyone's) theory about the cowboy telling Adam to pick the specific actress for the part... [/QUOTE]
I think it's just a way of doing something nice for Camilla, kind of as a peace offering in response to having had Camilla killed.
This is just part of a theory I've been reading about in this forum. The idea that in the dream Diane is represented not just in Betty but at times in several other characters (such as the "eyebrow" man).[/QUOTE]
Here is a link to an article that supports this theory, just in case you haven't seen it yet, TBickle. Click Here. The part about Adam representing Dianne is on page 3 (page 5 in the print version).
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
I also wouldn't see the significance of Adam going to see the cowboy (diane's conscience)...it makes more sense for Diane's conscience to be sending a message (the one/two times thing) to herself...not to Adam.[/QUOTE]
Also don't forget Adam's visit from Cookie. That represents the detectives knocking on Dianne's door.
Note: DOORS are very important in this film! Just about every time a door opens, Dianne is asked to come to grips with something.
For example, Louise Bonner comes to the door and tells Dianne to "Get rid of it." And the doors to the Blue Boxes reveal all kinds of things: Camilla's death, abusers, etc.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
Anyway, I'd love to hear your (or anyone's) theory about the cowboy telling Adam to pick the specific actress for the part... [/QUOTE]
I think it's just a way of doing something nice for Camilla, kind of as a peace offering in response to having had Camilla killed.
Jan 29, 2002 7:20 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
Ok, I think I agree with you that Adam is always Adam in the dream (especially under the thinking that Diane is just continuously punishing him throughout the dream). However, the entire situation of Adam finding his wife cheating represents in some way Diane having to confront her abusive past. The scene has a dual purpose - 1)to punish/humiliate Adam and 2)to represent the time in which Diane must confront her past.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It's BOTH. Like just about everything else in this movie, it is not a matter of either or -- IT'S BOTH!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
It makes sense why eyebrow guy is killed in the dream (b/c he was the witness to her hiring the hitman) but during the conversation b/w eyebrow guy and his shrink or lover (not sure which one i buy into yet) diane was the eyebrow guy.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and it was also Dianne who is killed out back by the demon -- just as the horror of Dianne's past drove her to suicide in real life. In other words, Eyebrow Guy's death was a foreshadowing or Doppelganger, if you will.
What I am saying is that, deep down, Diane suspected that she was probably going to kill herself. Thus, the death of Eyebrow Guy is yet another example of reality creeping in.
Note: If you listen closely enough when Eyebrow Guy dies, you can actually hear the other guy calling him "Diane." Yep. It's true.
Ok, I think I agree with you that Adam is always Adam in the dream (especially under the thinking that Diane is just continuously punishing him throughout the dream). However, the entire situation of Adam finding his wife cheating represents in some way Diane having to confront her abusive past. The scene has a dual purpose - 1)to punish/humiliate Adam and 2)to represent the time in which Diane must confront her past.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It's BOTH. Like just about everything else in this movie, it is not a matter of either or -- IT'S BOTH!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TBickle
It makes sense why eyebrow guy is killed in the dream (b/c he was the witness to her hiring the hitman) but during the conversation b/w eyebrow guy and his shrink or lover (not sure which one i buy into yet) diane was the eyebrow guy.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and it was also Dianne who is killed out back by the demon -- just as the horror of Dianne's past drove her to suicide in real life. In other words, Eyebrow Guy's death was a foreshadowing or Doppelganger, if you will.
What I am saying is that, deep down, Diane suspected that she was probably going to kill herself. Thus, the death of Eyebrow Guy is yet another example of reality creeping in.
Note: If you listen closely enough when Eyebrow Guy dies, you can actually hear the other guy calling him "Diane." Yep. It's true.
Jan 29, 2002 7:33 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rusty Nail
If you listen closely enough when Eyebrow Guy dies, you can actually hear the other guy calling him "Diane." Yep. It's true. [/QUOTE]
Yes, you can actually here him say, "Diane, are you all right?" several times.
My take on that is that De Rosa, Diane's neighbor, comes over at some point during the three weeks since she's last seen Diane, knocks on the door and says, "Diane, are you all right?", which is woven into the TG part of the dream.
If you listen closely enough when Eyebrow Guy dies, you can actually hear the other guy calling him "Diane." Yep. It's true. [/QUOTE]
Yes, you can actually here him say, "Diane, are you all right?" several times.
My take on that is that De Rosa, Diane's neighbor, comes over at some point during the three weeks since she's last seen Diane, knocks on the door and says, "Diane, are you all right?", which is woven into the TG part of the dream.
Jan 29, 2002 7:41 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 22cute
Yes, you can actually here him say, "Diane, are you all right?" several times.
My take on that is that De Rosa, Diane's neighbor, comes over at some point during the three weeks since she's last seen Diane, knocks on the door and says, "Diane, are you all right?", which is woven into the TG part of the dream. [/QUOTE]
Your take is very reasonable. It also fits in with your other theory about how the detectives came snooping around while talking about a "missing girl."
Note that both of these events could have happened on the same morning that DeRosa wakes Dianne up. Thus, they do not, in and of themselves, disprove the single-dream theory. In other words, everything that we see in the dream sequence could have been dreamt in a single night.
Yes, you can actually here him say, "Diane, are you all right?" several times.
My take on that is that De Rosa, Diane's neighbor, comes over at some point during the three weeks since she's last seen Diane, knocks on the door and says, "Diane, are you all right?", which is woven into the TG part of the dream. [/QUOTE]
Your take is very reasonable. It also fits in with your other theory about how the detectives came snooping around while talking about a "missing girl."
Note that both of these events could have happened on the same morning that DeRosa wakes Dianne up. Thus, they do not, in and of themselves, disprove the single-dream theory. In other words, everything that we see in the dream sequence could have been dreamt in a single night.
Jan 29, 2002 8:05 PM
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