laurashapiro
ETA: "PoC" abbreviation changed to "people of color" thanks to a comment here.
I want to preface this post by saying that, as always, I had a great time at the con, and I continue to remain in awe of what the concom is capable of. Everyone I asked said that they were having fun, too.
That said, some stuff came up for me, and for other people, and I want to post about it now before I lose hold of it.
If you recognize yourself in my vagued-up anecdotes below and would like to self-identify, or if you want to add information, please feel free to do so. If you recognize racism, sexism, or ablism in my post, I would appreciate knowing that my ass is showing. This is crossposted to my Dreamwidth and my LiveJournal, and comments are open on both posts.
Vividcon and Race
There appeared to be more people of color at the con this year than ever before, based on my entirely unscientific observation (I've been every year except the first one, but I've never actually counted). From my point of view, that's a good thing, but unfortunately it meant that some of the people of color had to deal with racism at the con.
IMO, the challenge vidshow, themed IDIC, was a fiasco. Of the 8 vids in that show, only two of them made sense to me in the context of diversity: Red Cliff (Chinese movie about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, set to a song in Chinese, with titles in Chinese) and Swing (Uhura-centric Star Trek:TOS vid). One of the remaining vids, Right in Two, is the one I mentioned above as offending me. It was a SPN vid, and I don't know the show, so it may be my perspective is skewed. But it used a lot of outside source, primarily of people of color beating the shit out of each other, to highlight Castiel's whitemanpain angel-emo, and it pissed me right off.
The other vids in the show were mostly about white, able-bodied people doing various things. Several of them were excellent, and two of them I loved, but I couldn't figure out why they were in this particular vidshow.
Another thing I have noticed in the past couple of years is that there are usually several vids featuring CoC in Club Vivid, but there are always fewer in Premieres. I myself have done this, so I'm not exempting myself from it: both my Club Vivid vids featured as many characters of color as I could cram in, but my solo premiere was about two white people. It's almost as though vidders feel it's just fine for people of color to be musicians and entertainers, but they can't be heroes. The Vividcon Premieres show has been called the Academy Awards of Vidding, but we rarely seem to take characters of color that seriously.
I did speak with one fan of color after the con who said it was great to see so many other people of color there -- that she felt like she could look around and not be the only one. So clearly, it wasn't all fail all the time.
I had a long conversation with absolutedestiny Saturday night about how the con can be safer and more welcoming for people of color. The best immediate suggestion I can come up with is to integrate the concom, which is AFAIK entirely white. I wonder also if outreach would be valuable, but I'm not sure what it would look like or if there's a good way to do it without making it all about how the white people want validation and participation from people of color. I would welcome thoughts on this.
Vividcon and Sex and Gender
We had more men at Vividcon this year than ever before, and while that didn't radically change my experience of the con, I did notice some problems -- or other people pointed them out to me.
Vividcon has been a very safe space for white women in the past, where our gaze is privileged, our opinions are valued, and our sexuality and our bodies are celebrated and safe. Club Vivid is the apotheosis of this, and to have a handful of men standing around gawking challenges that on a fundamental level.
Some of the men who attend Vividcon are very close friends of mine and I want to be sure they feel welcome as well. But these men are already part of the community, they know and respect its traditions, and they don't stand around watching: they dance.
I'm not at all sure how to address this issue. The con welcomes men, and people who don't vid, and we can't very well demand that everyone dance -- some of the women prefer not to, after all, and some have mobility limitations. But I do note that as vidding emerges further into the mainstream, we are likely to keep having the occasional new guy show up, and they won't always have a clue.
One other thing I want to mention: there was a vid in Premieres, Go Baby, that really rubbed me the wrong way. The source was the "Charlie's Angels" movies, and the vid felt like it was all about their bodies and using their sexuality (I learned the song is actually about a man, but it wasn't used that way here). Any power the women might have had is overridden for me by the knowledge that they are merely extensions of "Charlie". The vidder enjoys making bright, splashy, fun vids and I might not even have noticed the ick factor if the vid had played at Club Vivid, but as it was I felt like I was getting mainstream sexist objectification at my con, and I didn't like it. And yes, I say this as the vidder of "I Want Candy".
In terms of gender, one of the highlights of the con for me was when a friend of mine who's recently had a mastectomy took of her shirt and danced topless. I felt her power in that moment and was thrilled that she felt safe enough to do it.
Vividcon and Accessibility
In this post, accessibility is the topic I know least about, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
The con hotel seems pretty accessible from what I've seen. The front doors open automatically at the touch of a button (height-appropriate for people who use wheelchairs), there are three wide elevators in good repair, and the public restrooms all have a large stall with bars. Doors to panel rooms and guest rooms seem wide enough to admit a wheelchair, but I would like to get confirmation on that if anyone can.
The concom does a great job making sure that people with mobility problems can attend programming, from providing an overflow room for Premieres and Club Vivid, to working individually with fans with disabilities to make sure their needs are met -- including welcoming partners and other loved ones who are providing assistance and/or care to con members.
One thing that is not offered is signing for panels. So far as I know we haven't had any deaf attendees, but I'd like to think the concom would move on this if it became a need.
One new thing for next year is that the con DVDs will provide subtitles for vids, provided that vidders submit a subtitle file for each vid they submit. As frequenters of this journal know, I'm doing my part to promote that and assist vidders with getting their vids subtitled. I think it'll be great to have them available on the con DVDs. If possible, I would recommend that the con consider turning on subtitles in the overflow room during Premieres and Club Vivid as well.
In Conclusion
Vividcon is still the one don't-miss event of my year, and I have every expectation that it will continue to be so. But I am white and able-bodied, and I know and trust most of the men who show up, so I recognize that my perspective skews toward "VVC YAY!" I look forward to hearing other opinions.
I want to preface this post by saying that, as always, I had a great time at the con, and I continue to remain in awe of what the concom is capable of. Everyone I asked said that they were having fun, too.
That said, some stuff came up for me, and for other people, and I want to post about it now before I lose hold of it.
If you recognize yourself in my vagued-up anecdotes below and would like to self-identify, or if you want to add information, please feel free to do so. If you recognize racism, sexism, or ablism in my post, I would appreciate knowing that my ass is showing. This is crossposted to my Dreamwidth and my LiveJournal, and comments are open on both posts.
Vividcon and Race
There appeared to be more people of color at the con this year than ever before, based on my entirely unscientific observation (I've been every year except the first one, but I've never actually counted). From my point of view, that's a good thing, but unfortunately it meant that some of the people of color had to deal with racism at the con.
- One woman of color was mistaken for another fan of the same race, multiple times, even though everyone involved was wearing name badges. I read that this happened recently at other cons as well.
- One woman of color was mis-identified as white by a white fan, at a panel. Fortunately, when others spoke up and informed the speaker of her mistake, and she quickly withdrew her statement and apologized.
- At least two vids I saw at the convention were racially problematic -- one of them I found outright offensive. Few people were willing to speak up about the racial aspects of the vids at the subsequent review panels. I include myself in that; I didn't speak up, either.
- Few vids shown at the con centralized characters of color, though many CoC did appear in vids.
IMO, the challenge vidshow, themed IDIC, was a fiasco. Of the 8 vids in that show, only two of them made sense to me in the context of diversity: Red Cliff (Chinese movie about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, set to a song in Chinese, with titles in Chinese) and Swing (Uhura-centric Star Trek:TOS vid). One of the remaining vids, Right in Two, is the one I mentioned above as offending me. It was a SPN vid, and I don't know the show, so it may be my perspective is skewed. But it used a lot of outside source, primarily of people of color beating the shit out of each other, to highlight Castiel's white
The other vids in the show were mostly about white, able-bodied people doing various things. Several of them were excellent, and two of them I loved, but I couldn't figure out why they were in this particular vidshow.
Another thing I have noticed in the past couple of years is that there are usually several vids featuring CoC in Club Vivid, but there are always fewer in Premieres. I myself have done this, so I'm not exempting myself from it: both my Club Vivid vids featured as many characters of color as I could cram in, but my solo premiere was about two white people. It's almost as though vidders feel it's just fine for people of color to be musicians and entertainers, but they can't be heroes. The Vividcon Premieres show has been called the Academy Awards of Vidding, but we rarely seem to take characters of color that seriously.
I did speak with one fan of color after the con who said it was great to see so many other people of color there -- that she felt like she could look around and not be the only one. So clearly, it wasn't all fail all the time.
I had a long conversation with absolutedestiny Saturday night about how the con can be safer and more welcoming for people of color. The best immediate suggestion I can come up with is to integrate the concom, which is AFAIK entirely white. I wonder also if outreach would be valuable, but I'm not sure what it would look like or if there's a good way to do it without making it all about how the white people want validation and participation from people of color. I would welcome thoughts on this.
Vividcon and Sex and Gender
We had more men at Vividcon this year than ever before, and while that didn't radically change my experience of the con, I did notice some problems -- or other people pointed them out to me.
- Although men made up less than 10% of the overall attendees, they seemed to take up a lot more floortime at panels. I only went to a couple of panels, but I noticed that in a room of 35 women and 2 men (on average), the men seemed to hold the floor for almost half the time. I don't think it's that they got called on more often than women who had their hands up. I think they just had their hands up more often.
- Some of the men who attended for the first time didn't seem to be part of the community, particularly. This was a big change from past years. I noticed this in the quality and content of the things they said in panels, the fact that they didn't have any vids to show and often hadn't seen vids that were used as comparisons, the fact that they didn't seem to socialize much outside of one or two people they knew. It was a bit weird.
- One woman said she noticed that several of the men did not dance at Club Vivid. They stood or sat around watching the rest of us dance. While I didn't notice this, I can totally see how that would creep people out.
Vividcon has been a very safe space for white women in the past, where our gaze is privileged, our opinions are valued, and our sexuality and our bodies are celebrated and safe. Club Vivid is the apotheosis of this, and to have a handful of men standing around gawking challenges that on a fundamental level.
Some of the men who attend Vividcon are very close friends of mine and I want to be sure they feel welcome as well. But these men are already part of the community, they know and respect its traditions, and they don't stand around watching: they dance.
I'm not at all sure how to address this issue. The con welcomes men, and people who don't vid, and we can't very well demand that everyone dance -- some of the women prefer not to, after all, and some have mobility limitations. But I do note that as vidding emerges further into the mainstream, we are likely to keep having the occasional new guy show up, and they won't always have a clue.
One other thing I want to mention: there was a vid in Premieres, Go Baby, that really rubbed me the wrong way. The source was the "Charlie's Angels" movies, and the vid felt like it was all about their bodies and using their sexuality (I learned the song is actually about a man, but it wasn't used that way here). Any power the women might have had is overridden for me by the knowledge that they are merely extensions of "Charlie". The vidder enjoys making bright, splashy, fun vids and I might not even have noticed the ick factor if the vid had played at Club Vivid, but as it was I felt like I was getting mainstream sexist objectification at my con, and I didn't like it. And yes, I say this as the vidder of "I Want Candy".
In terms of gender, one of the highlights of the con for me was when a friend of mine who's recently had a mastectomy took of her shirt and danced topless. I felt her power in that moment and was thrilled that she felt safe enough to do it.
Vividcon and Accessibility
In this post, accessibility is the topic I know least about, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
The con hotel seems pretty accessible from what I've seen. The front doors open automatically at the touch of a button (height-appropriate for people who use wheelchairs), there are three wide elevators in good repair, and the public restrooms all have a large stall with bars. Doors to panel rooms and guest rooms seem wide enough to admit a wheelchair, but I would like to get confirmation on that if anyone can.
The concom does a great job making sure that people with mobility problems can attend programming, from providing an overflow room for Premieres and Club Vivid, to working individually with fans with disabilities to make sure their needs are met -- including welcoming partners and other loved ones who are providing assistance and/or care to con members.
One thing that is not offered is signing for panels. So far as I know we haven't had any deaf attendees, but I'd like to think the concom would move on this if it became a need.
One new thing for next year is that the con DVDs will provide subtitles for vids, provided that vidders submit a subtitle file for each vid they submit. As frequenters of this journal know, I'm doing my part to promote that and assist vidders with getting their vids subtitled. I think it'll be great to have them available on the con DVDs. If possible, I would recommend that the con consider turning on subtitles in the overflow room during Premieres and Club Vivid as well.
In Conclusion
Vividcon is still the one don't-miss event of my year, and I have every expectation that it will continue to be so. But I am white and able-bodied, and I know and trust most of the men who show up, so I recognize that my perspective skews toward "VVC YAY!" I look forward to hearing other opinions.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 02:04 am (UTC)speaking of abby she was a huge help to me the first year I started using the wheelchair. her best tips: use room service/delivery (without the fridge/microwave the convention would be a lot less doable for me) and do not get a room on the 2nd floor- the doors to the hallways where the rooms are located are not self -opening/closing.
the only other tip I have is for the convention to let attendees with mobility problems that they are willing to help/make accommodations. ex: you had to push me to ask for seating at the Premiere show (more of my issue than the conventions). but one of the attendees with EDS was not aware she could ask for accommodations, something I passed on to Ellen the next day.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:52 am (UTC)Bolded for great truth.
A lot of people with disabilities, especially women, are often told that accomodations for them are an inconvenience, so they tend not to ask for things because they don't want to draw attention to themselves or get flak for it. [Personal example: At the airport this week, my husband and I were told that everyone else had to wait for their luggage because the poor airport staff had to "deal" with the "wheelchair", for example. I put wheelchair in quotes because they couldn't be bothered to refer to my husband as a person, just his wheelchair as a problem.]
A ConComm saying outright, on websites, in documentation, and at the actual con itself that accomodations can and will be made is a huge deal.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:57 am (UTC)The more times you can say "We're here to make sure you have access, let us know what you need", the safer people will feel speaking up.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:32 am (UTC)VVC is growing up. I mean that tongue in cheek because it wonderful that it is attracting a wide variety of people who have sometimes little familiarity with the community/attendees. I;d been vidding 12 years, knew the concom members for just as long and still had to be dragged to Ellen to ask for help. Who happily provided it (and is still providing it). That was my issue and I readily own it. The barrier to asking for help for people without my background can be higher.
I suspect this is the year where they start including legal disclaimers (someone complained about the lack of them), more detailed FAQs geared towards new attendees and info on disability.
FYI....even when asking for help, I keep in mind this is a small convention with 150 attendees solely run by fans for fans on a volunteer basis.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:08 pm (UTC)I really hope this prediction comes true!
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:00 pm (UTC)I will say that at least one person spoke up objecting to the idea you express here -- she felt that it infantilized her. Something to think about.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:15 pm (UTC)I think a great deal about how people with disabilities are infantized in our culture. People baby talk at my husband, so I can't exactly avoid thinking about it, even if I wanted to.
There is a balance to be struck. I lean towards making it clear as many ways as possible that accommodations can and will be made, because that information isn't just being communicated then to people with disabilities, but to the rest of the con. A con that makes it perfectly clear that they will do that also tells attendees that they're expected to do the same.
So, people maybe will think before they refuse a seat to someone who asks for it, or they won't leave their stuff in aisles so they aren't wheelchair accessible, or they won't question why information is also available in large print, for example.
I know VVC is small. These comments aren't only directed at VVC (since I didn't attend so for all I know they are awesome about making it clear to both attendees and staff at the hotel, and from what I've read overall they seem to be, which thrills me to my wee bones, you have no idea), but also at other people who run or think about cons to consider.
I mean, seriously. I burst into tears when WisCon sent Don & I an email about what accommodations he would need. No one ever asks.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 03:30 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 07:33 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:53 am (UTC)I do think there's more everyone can do to welcome newbies -- I note thuviaptarth has made some excellent suggestions (http://thuviaptarth.dreamwidth.org/112743.html).
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:38 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:50 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 02:29 am (UTC)Simply as a new person, I knew enough coming in that the community is mostly women and mostly caucasian. I knew from being at live journal that there is a bent towards Women's issues. This was a given to me and I knew going in I would need to be responsible for my own paranoia about that but being a newbie to the con loomed larger. Friendliness I think crosses most barriers very easily and greases the wheels of social interaction.
I would have been more interested in efforts that went into introducing Vividcon to newbies. The fact that a newbie generated a newbie meetup was discouraging because they are least well equipped to introduce newbies to Vividcon no matter how well intentioned they were. A sticky half the size of a badge with very small lettering and finger nail skills to detach that is also optional for a newbie to put on, I don't think adequately represented Vividcon's stand for welcoming newcomers and basically left it in the hands of attendees. I would have loved an opening remarks for all attendees along the lines of "this is who Vividcon is, what we stand for, and short history" before going straight to panels and shows. Registration is not adequate enough to equate newbies with the workhorse pace of the upcoming weekend I think.
Just an idea. Maybe good maybe not. I would have liked a newbie/veteran buddy arrangement that does not necessarily need to be too structured but would provide a place for a newbie to ask questions, share lunch/dinners, panels and shows. I don't know half of what is supposed to be right or wrong since it is my first time but having a representative of Vividcon's past cons to buddy up with would have given me more of a centered experience even if I didn't use them that much. Knowing they were there would be enough to ground me in this new experience. Yet, I believed this still happened informally with several really cool people at the con but would have been more natural if it was generated by the con. Just my thoughts.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 05:32 am (UTC)FWIW, I think this is a great idea.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 05:39 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 12:40 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 01:33 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 05:37 am (UTC)I will second that maybe much of the problem is the known/unknown gap. I feel bad for newbies who have no weigh to break the ice. This was my second VVC but I'm lucky to know a lot of people through a local network of longtime vidders. Even then, breaking out of my network and meeting others has been and remains difficult. I wanted to suggest that we hold an icebreaker at the start of the con, but I thought that idea would be shot down, in part because of time constraints.
But maybe we should do it anyway. I'd get up earlier on Friday morning. :)
The other frustrating thing is that two years ago jarrow held a Vidding for Newbies panel, so it seems that we will have to do the same thing every year for every batch of newbies. The idea is a little heady.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:38 am (UTC)Speaking as someone that would like to attend in the future, I wholeheartedly second this! I too saw that a newbie had organised a newbie meet up and my heart sank. I've been intimidated by the con for yeas, to go would take enormous courage, and it would be nice if there was some actual... INTEREST in newbies. The impression I get is that they are passively discouraged. Like if you have the balls (non-literal, or literal as the case may be) to attend, then well and good, but it's not encouraged or welcomed, and heaven forbid you be a bad vidder! (I get the impression that non-vidders are considered 'fine' but vidders have to be of a certain calibre and vidding in the same sort of tradition as the other attendees, preferably. Obviously there are people that turn up that don't fit the mould as well as others, so this is a massive generalisation.)
having a representative of Vividcon's past cons to buddy up with would have given me more of a centered experience
And it would also show that they were actually happy to have new people! Not just putting up with them because they kind of have to.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:10 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:05 pm (UTC)Granted, when I was a newbie to the con I was not yet a vidder, so I didn't feel the pressure that I take it some new congoers who are also vidders may have felt? and I came in knowing a handful of people in person from previous cons, so my initial intent was just to hang out with those people; but by the end of that weekend I was totally vidstruck (like being starstruck -- what I mean is, I had fallen in love with vids as a fandom of their own) and had met some new people and so on.
I think this may also be a factor of the natural shift that a con goes through as it becomes well-established. The first few years the concom was worried about whether they would fill up at all; now the con routinely sells out (though, also, they've raised the membership cap so that this year, everyone who wanted to come and was able to get there, was there.) It's become a known thing, with a certain number of returning folks (vidders and non-vidders) and a decent proportion of folks who are new to the con each year. It makes sense to me that there wasn't really much conversation about the experience of being new to the con in its first few years; in its first few years, everyone was new to the con, you know? But I think the con is entering a new phase of life, and part of that transition is that we're having conversations about how to make the con more comfortable for all kinds of people, including folks who are new to the con (or maybe even new to fan cons, period) and I think that is awesome.
Anyway: it's interesting to me that you found it discouraging that a newbie (is that term offending anyone? should we be saying "first-time congoer" or something?) organized the newbie meetup. That hadn't occurred to me; I just thought it was cool to see someone who felt a need for something creating the thing she felt a need for.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 11:18 pm (UTC)That's great to hear. All I see is what's online, and I remember trying to find something on the Vividcon website or LJ about whether newbies were welcome or encouraged or not and coming away without that very clear, except with the impression that it helped a great deal if you knew people there already.
It makes sense to me that there wasn't really much conversation about the experience of being new to the con in its first few years; in its first few years, everyone was new to the con, you know?
Yup, that makes lots of sense to me too.
I'm not offended by the term newbie personally as long as people realise that being a newbie to the physical con doesn't mean I'm necessarily also a newbie to the fandom or to vidding.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 11:29 pm (UTC)On a semi-related note, I do hope you're able to make it some year! (I know it's a ridiculously long way, and I wish I could teleport you or something.) I adore your vids and would love to meet you in person!
no subject
on 2009-08-23 11:31 am (UTC)Teleportation means also much desired. ;)
no subject
on 2009-08-20 03:14 pm (UTC)It's not that anyone was unwelcoming -- this was all my personal issues! -- but I think awkward/introverted/feeling ill-equipped to recommend oneself to people is probably not uncommon. (Why yes, online, you and I have talked for years and get along like a house on fire! And yet I am convinced that in person you will find me horrid! WTF, brain.)
no subject
on 2009-08-20 03:52 pm (UTC)I feel that general info about attendees in relation to fandoms they vid for and are interested in and simple profile info in the program would go a long way to helping people click before and after the con. After all we are all brought together by our common love of fandom and not necessarily the response to the question of "If we knew nothing about each other's fandom interests would we get along outside of that interest."
Re: Vividcon 2009: Some observations about race, gender, and accessibility
on 2009-08-20 04:32 pm (UTC)Also, what year did you attend VVC? I still mostly remember you from the fuh-q group. ;-)
As to laurashapiro's comments, there are some parts that did make me reflect but also some parts I disagreed with. Each person has their own views.
Re: Vividcon 2009: Some observations about race, gender, and accessibility
on 2009-08-23 12:54 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 06:29 pm (UTC)Thank you for pointing that out. I do think a lot of it has to do with personal issues (I know it does for me, too!), because VVC is overwhelming in many different ways. But it's also not something the concom or anyone else can do anything about.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:41 am (UTC)It's true that you can't overcome introversion. But if I'm remembering correctly, I heard someone say at the con that it was 40% newbies this year--which means it's worth thinking about putting resources into outreach.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:43 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:50 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:54 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:54 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:57 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:35 am (UTC)Well, maybe that explains why I had no idea you were at the con *g*. If I'd spied your name on a badge, I would totally have gone out of my introverted way to meet you!
no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:40 am (UTC)percentage of first-timers
on 2009-08-21 01:43 am (UTC)But if I'm remembering correctly, I heard someone say at the con that it was 40% newbies this year
Oh, no. Either someone misheard, or something got lost in translation. The con was 25% newbies this year, which is bang-on normal for us.
You can see the number breakdown on Fanlore (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Vividcon#No_one_new_can_get_in), but the short version is that for the first few years, roughly 50% of the membership was new every year (while we grew toward filling our cap), and since we started steadily hitting our cap, the membership has consisted of 20-25% first-timers every single year. I'll be updating those numbers with 2009 info as soon as I get the chance, but the trend stayed solid this year, even with the raised cap.
Re: percentage of first-timers
on 2009-08-21 01:47 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-23 12:57 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-23 12:40 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:41 am (UTC)As someone who would like to attend VVC next year, I like this idea a lot.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:52 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:36 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 06:48 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:55 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:44 am (UTC)Maybe some veteran VVC attendees could organize a newbie/veteran buddy system (which I agree sounds like a great idea).
no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:31 pm (UTC)I wanted to chime in personally to say that it saddens me that I have alienated some newbies with my post. I did not express myself all that well in the section where I was talking about there being more men at the con, and I see how I could have implied that newbies and non-vidders were not welcome.
This is actually so very far from my actual feelings on the issue that I plan to do a follow-up post about it. I love newbies. I proposed and VJ'd the "Newbies Rock" vidshow two years ago (I think I'll be proposing it again for 2010), and I am glad to have beta'd vids and provided technical support for a number of new vidders over the years -- something I want to continue to do!
And as you observed, I do try to reach out to people at the con that I haven't met before and engage them in conversation, particularly if they are looking a bit lost or alone.
I get that this post doesn't reflect that, but this stuff is important to me, so I wanted to respond to you directly -- even as you and others have a lot of great ideas on how to bridge the newbie gap, so you clearly don't need me! (:
no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:56 pm (UTC)Laura, maybe you should have done a video instead of a post. You know work with your strengths. Just kidding. Clearly don't need you? You are mistaken we need good, sweet person to pummel. Just because we're older or younger doesn't mean we don't like to pull pig tails. And sometimes people don't respond to you. They respond to who they think you are and that is very different.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 03:06 pm (UTC)At the moment, I'm reading The Pickwick Papers, but it's slow going. (:
And you know, if I could have found a way to say all of this in a vid, I would have!
no subject
on 2009-08-27 10:21 am (UTC)I did not express myself all that well in the section where I was talking about there being more men at the con, and I see how I could have implied that newbies and non-vidders were not welcome.
This sounds like you welcome newbies... as long as they're not men?
It made me personally feel really uncomfortable. What if they all behaved appropriately and respectfully? Would they be welcome then?
I respect you have personal feelings about this but I'm really struggling with what I see as, but hope is not, (unconscious?) implied sexism in some of your statements.
no subject
on 2009-08-27 02:26 pm (UTC)My point remains the same: sometimes introducing men into formerly female-dominated spaces changes the dynamics of those spaces. I felt, and several other women I talked to felt, that it did so for the first time this year. I felt it was noteworthy, so I posted about it. I didn't explain it particularly well, hence my clarification to you above (and the follow-up post).
no subject
on 2009-08-27 09:52 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-27 11:13 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-28 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-28 03:53 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 05:42 am (UTC)I think that's a great idea. I was new this year. I had a great time, mostly due to a fabulous roomate who had been to the con before and a nearly pathological lack of shyness. I am totally comfortable throwing myself into conversations with a group of people who all know each other, or wandering around a roomful of strangers making loud announcements inviting them to come with me for Fannish Conversation and Meat.
I think it would have been rather difficult if I had a normal amount of shyness, never mind the introversion that's common among folks who choose to make friends over the Internet.
I'm not a strong organizer, but if the ConCom wants some help putting together newbie orientation and fun, I'd be happy to put my oar in.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 04:46 am (UTC)I would like to point out that this has been my time at Vividcon and overall I found everyone to be great and real friendly. As my first time there and not really knowing anyone, it’s always harder to interact and be “in” all the conversations all the time. Actually I noticed that there were always others too in the same situation and even sitting around during Club Vivid of “BOTH GENDERS” if you really are going to be specific. I actually enjoyed watching the Music videos and didn’t just want to jump onto the dance floor right away, however I did get pulled on and did enjoy it at the end… I would also assume there was not rules to break by not wanting to dance right away.
I think it seems to be really unfair to assume any of us not being part of the community just because we did not have any premiering videos there. I noticed that there are a great number of people there that do not make videos but are fans and attend and enjoy themselves just like everyone else. Secondly, just because you don’t have a video in the line up does not mean some of us have not make music videos or seem them. I myself have made a LOT of live action videos over the past 25 years and didn’t feel I need to pander them off to people just because nor have nothing to say just because I’ve not shown them.
As for being part of the panels, I also thing it’s unfair to single out the “guys” being the only talkative ones. I think this is more personality based and there were a lot of other people what happen to just be as talkative. Actually I found it to be quite diverse and a lot of people expressed their opinions and thoughts and I think discussion panels should be where people don’t have to be afraid to say something or feel they have to.
Now I assume you are just trying to put down your observations and are not you trying to say things in a negative way, and I myself hopefully don’t come across too angry sounding, however it really does come off a bit insulting in some ways. I would like to think that I myself and everyone else that was mentioned had a good time and met a lot of people and even had some great conversations. I would also assume I would be welcomed back just like anyone else as I was really inspired and even am itching to make a few live action videos for the event!
Vlad
no subject
on 2009-08-21 09:57 pm (UTC)To respond to a few of your points:
I noticed that there were always others too in the same situation and even sitting around during Club Vivid of “BOTH GENDERS”
I know this is true. But as I've said elsewhere on this thread, the sexism that affects all cultures means that, unfortunately, a man watching women dance will always have a different meaning than a woman watching women dance.
I'm not accusing the men at the con of any intent to do harm. The feelings of discomfort that were reported to me can and do exist irrespective of any intent -- it's part of the world we live in, and until the revolution comes, it's helpful for everyone to be aware of the meanings their behavior can have.
I think it seems to be really unfair to assume any of us not being part of the community just because we did not have any premiering videos there. I noticed that there are a great number of people there that do not make videos but are fans and attend and enjoy themselves just like everyone else.
I appreciate you mentioning this. To my great sorrow, this was a topic on which I spectacularly failed to explain what I meant, and I can totally understand why people would feel that I am hostile to newbies, unaware of other vidding communities, or believe that only vidders should attend the con.
Nothing could be further from the truth, and regular readers of my journal know this, but unfortunately I didn't talk about that here. I was trying to describe why I felt uncomfortable, and I didn't do a very good job! This stuff is difficult to define, but what I should have said is that I, like many people I know with roots in the traditional vidding community, feel a great love for our historically women-dominated fannish spaces and a great tension when it seems as though those spaces are changing.
I also thing it’s unfair to single out the “guys” being the only talkative ones.
I certainly don't think the guys were the only people who talked a lot at panels. I talked a lot myself! But I did notice, and I'm not alone in this, that men talked more proportionally. This effect has been studied over and over, and it seems to be pretty consistent in western culture: women tend to yield the floor to men, and men tend to dominate the discourse.
This doesn't mean, as I think I did say clearly above, that I don't want men to attend the con. It just means that I don't want the community culture I've become so passionate about to disappear.
There aren't easy answers to these things. It's an ongoing conversation, and I hope that we'll continue to talk civilly about the ways to navigate the changes, because they are going to keep coming.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 06:37 am (UTC)Some of these problems you bring up have been here for a long time and have not been solved in society, so we certainly will not solve them overnight. However, if everyone wants to help minimize them, it is up to everyone who comes responsibility in some ways.
For instance, if we don’t want people sitting around Club Vivid, then the people on the dance floor should be the ones to get those who are sitting and maybe too scared onto the floor to have fun! If we complain about something and do not try to do anything about it ourselves, then we are also in some respects to blame... I mean I agree with Ian that if someone actually got me on the dance floor much sooner, I would have not sat watching the video for as long as I did (thanks to those that did though!)... It really is intimidating sometimes to just jump in when you don’t feel you’re invited to.
Vlad
no subject
on 2009-08-20 06:08 am (UTC)I'm really curious about the anon SPN challenge vid at this point and hope someone posts it. I don't care if the anon reveals themselves, it's that at this point I want to be able to see it rather than imagine it, because what I'm imagining is not very pretty at all.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:06 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:34 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 06:26 am (UTC)The danger to me seems to be finding a way to address these issues (which should certainly be addressed) without becoming so politically correct that it's stifling. I certainly would not want to be a part of a community that *expected* me to go out of my way to vid characters of color just because it is "the right thing to do", same goes for vids about touchy subjects (incest, violence, etc.) - I wouldn't want to go to a con where they wouldn't be allowed because of some higher moral standard or out of fear of possibly offending people.
Vidding is about creativity, which is exclusively in the eyes of the creator. While I think you do bring up some good points, I still worry that the open, free, expressive and personal nature of vidding could suffer from being overly politically correct and overanalyzing everything.
(This is addressed to the whole community btw, not singling out Laura!)
no subject
on 2009-08-20 07:21 am (UTC)I certainly would not want to be a part of a community that *expected* me to go out of my way to vid characters of color just because it is "the right thing to do",
People keep saying this-- "I want to vid, regardless of race!" but the thing is? If people actually vidded characters *regardless of race* then there would be a lot more vids about characters of color than there are now. It's not that we need "token minority vids." It's that people need to stop ignoring and/or excluding minority characters from their vids. People need to stop going out of their way to *not* vid characters of color, because *that's* the right thing to do.
It's not something that can be laid at the feet of any individual vidder, but when you have hundreds of vids at a con and a tiny, tiny handful that feature characters of color (and those mostly in multifandom vids) then there's clearly a problem.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:57 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 05:45 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:22 pm (UTC)But the idea that fandom's representation of people of colour is in some way mostly proportional to the media's representation of people of colour is a commonly held belief that is completely false. A friend of mine and I made a vid about the yuletide challenge (http://yuletidetreasure.org), and to do so we researched yuletide pretty extensively. Now, that's only one corner of fandom and it's not everybody, but it is THOUSANDS of fandoms and THOUSANDS of fans, and so is a pretty good sample size. I can tell you that, not only are small fandoms starring people of colour underrepresented (by which I mean, not in the yuletide archive when you might expect them to be) but that yuletide stories written in fandoms that star people of colour tend overwhelmingly to ignore the characters of colour and focus on the white characters. We went through and looked at every single yuletide fandom, and the pattern recurred again and again: this show STARS Gina Torres - but there's no fic written about her character. This movie has Dule Hill in it - but there's no fic written about his character. Henry is one of the stars of Eureka and structurally is in a classic slash relationship with Jack - but surprisingly Jack/Henry fic is a minority in the archive. Over and over and over again. I cannot count the number of times we saw this.
Representation of characters of colour in fandom is not proportional to the representation of characters of colour on tv. It just isn't.
This is a debate well established in some slightly larger fandoms, like Psych, House, and Leverage - in which there are characters of colour who fandom would be ALL OVER if they were just a little whiter. None of this means that any given story about any given white character is bad/racist, or that any given vid starring any given white character(s) is bad/racist: what it means is that we have a trend to focus disproportionately on white characters and ignore characters of colour, even when those characters of colour are the kinds of characters fandom usually loves (Gus from Psych or Hardison from Leverage). And that this trend is emergent not from malice or from intentional pre-planned active decisions to ignore characters of colour, but rather from social conditioning that tells us that white people are more interesting/attractive/worth our time. In order to fight against that conditioning and redress that unfair, racist trend, we have to make a conscious effort. That's all.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:49 pm (UTC)Yes, this. Makes me cranky.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-26 10:28 pm (UTC)Quotable. Thanks.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:44 pm (UTC)(I may have a one-track mind.)
no subject
on 2009-08-21 06:37 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:58 am (UTC)You can't expect e.g. 25% of the vids to include people of color if the popular sources only feature about 5%.
But the problem is, even 5% of VVC vids are not featuring characters of color. I'm not saying "We should be vidding to represent real life demographics." We should be vidding the characters that DO exist in fandom, but get ignored: Ronon and Teyla, Teal'c, Weevil and Wallace, Foreman and Kutner, Martha and Mickey, Hiro and Ando and Alejandro and Maya and Mohinder and Monica, Ben Sisko, Victor Henriksen, etc.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 03:40 pm (UTC)I'm probably going to regret saying something here, but. You know, to me, the assumption inherent in this statement is offensive. When you unpack that sentence and pry out the subtext, what it really seems to say is, all you vidders out there are deliberately going out of your way to not vid characters of color because of your racial bias or prejudice. You're saying to me that if I choose to make a vid or vids that does not focus on or include characters of color, that the assumption therefore must be I've deliberately decided to exclude and ignore characters of color *because* they are not white, instead of just vidding what I am drawn to vid at this particular moment in time, whether that is characters of color or not. And wow. That is a lot of baggage to throw on others.
I think it's helpful to look at the root sources of what you see as the problem here - starting with the diversity of characters or lack thereof in some of the most popular and beloved media fandoms, which is an issue vidders can't really control. And going on down this path - to say we should not love or enjoy or vid those sources which don't include many characters of color, or to say we should focus our attention only on the characters of color within them, is also really problematic for me, and not a discussion I think I can even begin to get into right now.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:56 pm (UTC)Well, that is basically what she said, except for how you threw in a bunch of "deliberately"s. Which is a nice way of deflecting criticism. You KNOW you didn't sit down to make a vid and think, "Hmm, shall I focus on a character of color? No! And the reason why is that I think they are inferior because they are not white!!" (Haha, at least, I hope not.)
It's real nice that you aren't consciously, maliciously racist, but that doesn't mean you're perfectly immune to the kind of brainwashing that happens in this culture when you're white. You know? You might have lots of good, conscious reasons why you're drawn to this character but not the other, or this show but not the other, but you've also been taught your whole life that people of color are less interesting, that their stories are less important, and that they're too Other for you to identify with them. It's possible that that stuff has an effect on you, right? That's not a terrible insult to your moral character, it's just realistic.
So when you've got a bunch of white fans, a bunch of unexamined subconscious racism, and a bunch of awesome characters of color (which, yes, despite the sources' racism, do exist), and those awesome characters of color get no love... I don't think it's 'problematic' to say, "people need to stop ignoring and/or excluding minority characters."
Also see: thingswithwings' comment (http://laurashapiro.livejournal.com/279323.html?thread=4930331#t4930331).
But look, it doesn't have to a big guilty thing. You don't have to stop vidding the white characters you already love. You don't have to vid characters you think are totally boring. Think of it as good motivation for paying more attention, now, to characters of color, and seeking out diverse sources, just in case you overlooked them before.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:07 pm (UTC)I saw a metaphor once that I really liked: that racism is like pollution, in that the vast majority of us aren't going out of our way to create it, but that we can't help breathing it in and being poisoned by it. And sometimes we unwittingly contribute to it. It's not about blame, it's about saying "Because I am part of this world, I have this poison in me. What can I do about that? And what can I do to decrease the amount of poison in the world?"
no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:36 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 07:03 am (UTC)I'm sure you meant this as a generic 'you', right? Because the entire reason I learned to vid in the first place was specifically so I could make a vid about a character of color. That's where I started. And I guess that's what bothers me about the assumptions being made here and elsewhere; that white people are all brainwashed, that we are all making unconscious choices to exclude rather than include. Some of us are making conscious choices, and have always made them, but the generalizations continue on points of principle, and that just...isn't accurate. Some, not all.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 12:31 am (UTC)Well...so what?
I don't mean that in a mean way. I mean that if it were possible to just will oneself away from all the garbage our culture entangles us in, to wake up one morning and decide not to be racist, a lot of people would have already done it. I write and vid (to the extent I vid) about characters of color a lot. So what? That doesn't mean I have figured out how to immunize myself against the subtle poison we all breathe in every day. I don't spend my life beating myself up over it, because that makes it all about my subjectivity rather than about justice, but I recognize it's something I need to consciously counteract and something that I will never be entirely free of.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 06:12 pm (UTC)As I said upthread, I don't feel this is about assigning blame to anyone for the racism they have absorbed. But I also don't think anybody, regardless of past behavior, gets a pass. I absolutely include myself in that.
I recognize that there are many people who balk at generalizations of any sort, particularly when they feel they don't apply to them. I recognize that some people may call my belief in the universality of racism paranoia. But it's based on my own feelings and observations, and those of the many, many people I've listened to who are a lot smarter than I am, many of whom suffer daily from the effects of racism.
no subject
on 2009-08-23 02:35 pm (UTC)And I'm not sure why my saying that it's possible you need to pay more attention is either offensive or proved wrong by that fact.
I guess that's what bothers me about the assumptions being made here and elsewhere; that white people are all brainwashed, that we are all making unconscious choices to exclude rather than include.
This (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/) is a link to the psychological tests that were my first introduction to that idea. I think they do a good job of showing the hidden biases that, yes, I think all white people have.
Try out the sessions on race sometime.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:11 am (UTC)Like softestbullet said: nope, I never said "deliberately."
And the thing is, if these characters aren't being skipped over because of their race, then why are they being skipped over?
Can it possibly be a coincidence that in fandom after fandom, major characters somehow just disappear from fanfic, meta and vids... and it always just *happens* to be the characters that aren't white?
I stand by my statement: if people really vidded and wrote fic about characters *regardless of race* then there would be a lot more fanfic, and a lot more vids, about characters of color than there are now.
If Gus on Psych was played by a white guy, Shawn/Gus would be HUGE, instead of a tiny trickle.
Why is there more fic slashing Tony Stark with a *disembodied computer voice* than with Jim Rhodes?
Why are there like six Logan/Weevil stories *total* in existence? And forget Weevil/Veronica, it hardly exists.
Where's all the Wesley/Gunn? You can't tell me that if Gunn was played by Jensen Ackles, there wouldn't be *exponentially* more Wesley/Gunn fic than there is now.
Why is there more fic about Chuck the Canadian Gate Tech than there is about Peter Grodin? (And why wasn't there any fic from the other gate tech from S1, who was Chinese?) Why is there more Lorne/Parrish and Stackhouse/Markham than any kind of fic about Ford, Bates, Teyla, Ronon, etc.?
These characters exist. They exist, and they get ignored. We can't *entirely* blame the source.
no subject
on 2009-08-23 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-23 09:44 pm (UTC)And the really depressing part is that these are just the fandoms I know about. Every time I get into a new fandom or have this discussion I get new examples. (The preference for Crockett/Castillo over Crockett/Tubbs in Miami Vice fandom, or the lack of Jack/Henry in Eureka fandom-- woof, it never stops.)
no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:24 am (UTC)And going on down this path - to say we should not love or enjoy or vid those sources which don't include many characters of color, or to say we should focus our attention only on the characters of color within them, is also really problematic for me, and not a discussion I think I can even begin to get into right now.
I just wanted to emphasize, also, that I never said that. At all. Or anything like it. I am talking about shows and movies where there is a really obvious character or pairing who, by all expectations, should absolutely be fannish catnip and yet gets *mysteriously ignored*-- Wesley/Gunn, Weevil/Logan, Ronon/anyone, Teyla/anyone, Shawn/Gus, Tony/Rhodey, etc., etc.
Again, as I said in the first place: I am *not* saying we should focus MORE attention on characters of color just because they're characters of color. I'm saying we should focus JUST AS MUCH attention on them as we would if they were the exact same character, as played by a similarly charismatic and attractive *white person*.
And we clearly, as a group, do not do this. We give them LESS attention, *just because of their race*. We need to stop doing that.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 11:50 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 06:03 pm (UTC)i think consciously trying to see them would be, i don't know, fake
You say this, but think about it -- is your lack of attraction to non-white people any less "fake"? Do you genuinely believe non-white people are less good-looking, intelligent, charming etc. than white people? If you genuinely believe that, is that a belief you want to hang on to?
If it's not a belief you're proud of, and if you want to get rid of it, then yes, you have to consciously try to see the slashiness in white/non-white pairings, and the attractiveness of non-white people. As to how you could work towards doing that, though -- I'll leave that to any helpful white people who might want to contribute. *g*
no subject
on 2009-08-22 06:05 pm (UTC)"helpful" white person here
on 2009-08-22 06:50 pm (UTC)Another image heavy post
Re: "helpful" white person here
on 2009-08-23 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-23 10:19 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:14 am (UTC)And maybe I would have heard it that way too, except that two posts earlier, someone pointed out that structurally Jack/Henry (Eureka) are in a slashy relationship...and honest-to-god I'd never noticed. I watch that show avidly, and had casually, in my head shipped Jack/Nathan (Tall Guys Slash!), but Jack/Henry makes at least as much sense (what with all the 3rd season tension and lying and whatnot), and yet, when thingswithwings said that, my first reaction was, "huh, no they're not."
So, maybe you're not biased in anyway by the culture you grew up in, but I apparently am. (and I'm rather bummed.)
no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:07 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:29 am (UTC)Hell yeah. I'm terrified to attend for that very reason!
no subject
on 2009-08-20 03:39 pm (UTC)The danger to me seems to be finding a way to address these issues (which should certainly be addressed) without becoming so politically correct that it's stifling.
I really think that there isn't a way to address those issues without someone feeling stifled by "political correctness." Mostly because the majority of people are racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, classist, ableist, and fatphobic, and most of those people don't want to change. And if we want people of color & other marginalized people to feel safe and welcomed at places like VVC, then yes, bigots are gonna have to feel excluded and/or stifled.
Not really seeing how that's a problem.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 03:42 pm (UTC)having an air of exclusivity about the community and calling out newbies for not knowing how VVC "does things"
Yeah, that kind of elitism sucks. (I just think it's very different from not-being-oppressive.)
no subject
on 2009-08-22 12:20 am (UTC)You're right to call this out. I have said this elsewhere in the comments here, but: I actually explained myself really badly in the section of the post where I talk about some of the attendees' comments in panels. I was groping for what bothered me and not doing a very good job of identifying it, and it made it look like I was against newbies attending the con, against non-vidders attending the con, and unaware of all the various different vidding communities that exist outside of mine.
In actuality, I am delighted to see newbies, non-vidders, and those from other vidding traditions at Vividcon and elsewhere. I appreciate and enjoy the exchange of ideas and creativity that results. So I pretty much said exactly the opposite of what I mean, there.
The danger to me seems to be finding a way to address these issues (which should certainly be addressed) without becoming so politically correct that it's stifling.
Personally, I view these conversations as a way to keep from hurting people, and a way to make the con safe and enjoyable for everyone. I have trouble with the phrase "politically correct" as it's commonly used, because I feel like it suggests that we shouldn't talk about things like racism or sexism, or take action on those things. That's a different kind of stifling, and I am against that as much as I am against policing creativity.
Which I am, I hasten to add, against. I am not telling anyone, in this post or anywhere else, to vid anything they don't want to vid. I'm merely observing certain trends and talking about how they affect me, and how they may affect others. What people decide to do with the information is up to them, and I'm not interested in making people feel guilty, because guilt doesn't help anybody.
Vividcon always has been a "view at your own risk" con, as far as explicit and controversial subject matter, and I'd never want to change that. But that doesn't mean that we can't criticize things that offend us. I'd suggest that in addition to "view at your own risk," we say "vid at your own risk": make whatever you want to make, but don't expect that people won't speak up if it bothers them.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:28 am (UTC)I can't speak as a Vividcon-attendee, only as a vidder and vid-watcher. However, I was very uncomfortable with this years theme because I thought it would be interpreted as being about race. Whether that was the intention of the organisers or not. I also find the idea of diversity at Vividcon kind of... sorry... farcical. Vividcon has a particular history and tradition of vidding, one I am very interested in and absolutely respect. But inclusive it is not. It is US-centric, female-centric and privileged. These days vidding is much, much wider than Vividcon. Yet I get the feeling that a lot of people in Livejournal-based vidding fandom think it represents the best of vidding--and thereby build themselves this elitist fantasy.
I have stayed silent on this--for too long, I think--out of respect for the traditions and out of personal fondness for the people involved. I honestly like a lot of VVC-vidders! Individually you're all very nice people. But collectively I have issues with the politics of inclusion and exclusion and I think the institution is problematic. I realise many VVC devotees would probably agree with that and acknowledge it--I appreciate it when they do, like you do here.
Your comments about gender made me feel uncomfortable. I agree with the other commenters that if women find it an issue, they should speak up more. And I think female-based communities can feel very different to mixed or male-based communities. I imagine a lot of men would feel pretty damn awkward and unsure of themselves if they attended, and could either talk too much to overcome that (something I do myself when nervous in new settings) or hang back and avoid contact for fear of misinterpretation or rejection or just general confusion. Even out of respect!
Thank you, again, for making the post. I respect you very much as a vidder and as a member of the community.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:33 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:37 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:39 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:46 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:54 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:42 am (UTC)Your approach does seem very unique. And I can't wait to ask you more about it! At least you've found people who appreciate it even if their own approach is different. It can be lonely though, can't it? I feel my personal taste in vids is pretty uncommon--I am lonely in that.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:19 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 04:33 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:18 am (UTC)(Not like anyone owes them, I'm just getting more and more curious about cool examples of other styles.)
no subject
on 2009-08-21 04:29 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 06:26 am (UTC)I have a couple groups of friends here, which I'm very glad to have. It took a long time for me to have any group of friends.
There are some that appreciate what I do, but not that many I know of, which isn't to say there's not more. I don't really feel "at home" in most parts of the vidding community. I've also given up on valuing what most people think of my vids because I don't vid other people. I appreciate what they have to say, but I don't always put a value on it because my vidding is not the same as most people. My approach and reasons are far, far different from the majority of what I see. I like what I like and I vid what I vid.
If you don't have it, my e-mail is miserychic47 at hotmail.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 08:57 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:59 am (UTC)Your approach does seem very unique. And I can't wait to ask you more about it! At least you've found people who appreciate it even if their own approach is different. It can be lonely though, can't it? I feel my personal taste in vids is pretty uncommon--I am lonely in that.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:25 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:12 am (UTC)I get the same feeling.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 04:34 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:44 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 03:04 pm (UTC)Thank you for your comment, and for continuing this discussion in your own journal. I haven't read your post yet (for reasons that are probably obvious!), but it's on my to-do list before the weekend.
I was very uncomfortable with this years theme because I thought it would be interpreted as being about race. Whether that was the intention of the organisers or not. I also find the idea of diversity at Vividcon kind of... sorry... farcical. Vividcon has a particular history and tradition of vidding, one I am very interested in and absolutely respect. But inclusive it is not. It is US-centric, female-centric and privileged.
I don't know if you saw it, but elynross posted about how the theme came about (http://laurashapiro.livejournal.com/279323.html?thread=4899867#t4899867) and that they had specifically rejected a narrow definition of diversity for many of the reasons you discuss here.
These days vidding is much, much wider than Vividcon. Yet I get the feeling that a lot of people in Livejournal-based vidding fandom think it represents the best of vidding--and thereby build themselves this elitist fantasy.
I appreciate you mentioning this. To my great sorrow, this was a topic on which I spectacularly failed to explain what I meant, and I can totally understand why people would feel that I am hostile to newbies, unaware of other vidding communities, or believe that only vidders should attend the con.
Nothing could be further from the truth, and regular readers of my journal know this, but unfortunately I didn't talk about that here. I was trying to describe why I felt uncomfortable, and I didn't do a very good job! This stuff is difficult to define, but what I should have said is that I, like many people I know with roots in the traditional vidding community, feel a great love for our historically women-dominated fannish spaces and a great tension when it seems as though those spaces are changing.
In fact, I love that the con welcomes vidders and vid fans who are new to the traditional vidding community, and I am thrilled to see the cross-pollination that occurs as a result. I'm constantly on people who say "THE vidding community" as if there were only one!
But obviously that doesn't show up in my OP, and I'm sorry for that. I'll be making a follow-up post to clarify this point.
Your comments about gender made me feel uncomfortable. I agree with the other commenters that if women find it an issue, they should speak up more.
Of course I'd like nothing more than that, but unfortunately it's not that simple, as others have explained. Sexism exists in fandom just as it does elsewhere, and women are raised from the cradle to defer to men. It's not that easy to throw off decades of social conditioning.
That said, I do know that Vividcon can feel awkward for men, who are not used to being the minority in any space. I get that it sucks to feel that way.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 03:49 pm (UTC)I'm constantly on people who say "THE vidding community" as if there were only one!
Haha, having come straight from a raging debate in my own comments about that: I heart you. :)
Sexism can exist in fandom, yes. My own experiences with male vidders and male fan artists have been overwhelmingly positive, if anything I think they tiptoe too much around our feelings. These things are personal. I respect you were sharing your experience and I think doing that has been a good way to open up the debate, I am very grateful.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 06:30 pm (UTC)Sexism can exist in fandom, yes. My own experiences with male vidders and male fan artists have been overwhelmingly positive, if anything I think they tiptoe too much around our feelings. These things are personal. I respect you were sharing your experience and I think doing that has been a good way to open up the debate, I am very grateful.
Thank you so much. I've had, for the most part, great experiences with male vidders as well. But there are times when it's gone otherwise. It's clearly not uncontroversial to bring this stuff up, but I'm glad that you understand why I did.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 04:01 pm (UTC)I'm less inclined than some others to throw stones for not vidding more characters of color. I think that's mostly because it's just not very high on my list of "Things I find problematic" about media fandom. My main concern is what's given to us in source, then fan reaction to the characters and treatment of fen of color, and only then the extent to which COCs are integrated into fanwork. But I fully understand that other people *do* see it as very important and will not begrudge them good-faith attempts to bring greater diversity to vidding. I had issues with using the challenge for that, but am more open to previous strategies such as encouraging VJs to seek out vids that feature underrepresented minorities.
I do want to make one point I haven't seen come up yet. There's a lot of talk about straight-up proportions in regards to white vs POC characters, i.e. there are X number of white characters and Y number of COCs, so Y/(X+Y) vids should feature COCs. That doesn't really address screentime or, more importantly for me, the types of roles these characters play. I can't speak for anyone else, but despite the fact that oftentimes my favorite or one of my favorite characters is a POC (Sharon in BSG, Mohinder and Hiro in Heroes, Ellison in TSCC, etc), I rarely feel like I can vid them. My instincts are very action-oriented and, sadly, these characters are not often the primary action heroes. Since white characters usually show up in the more dynamic clips, I vid them more often, even when I don't like them as much as some COCs. Hence why I am mainly concerned with the source media representation and am fine with letting people vid what they want.
I did take issue with some of your comments about men, specifically this:
I noticed this in the quality and content of the things they said in panels, the fact that they didn't have any vids to show and often hadn't seen vids that were used as comparisons, the fact that they didn't seem to socialize much outside of one or two people they knew.
It's discouraging to hear that "quality" of comments during panels and knowledge of previous vids would be used to judge the extent to which someone really belongs at VVC and fear that reading this will make some people even more reluctant to speak up during panels. I think it takes time to fully integrate into a community and there will be some growing pains as newbies, both male and female, find their feet. I don't think we should hold the male attendees to different standards in this respect.
That said, I do agree with a lot of what you said and really appreciate your bringing these issues to light. Going to keep an eye on this post for further discussion. :)
no subject
on 2009-08-21 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 08:50 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 09:00 pm (UTC)I'm going to let your reply stand, but I'd ask everyone to ignore the troll if they show up again. Trust me, I will turn off anon commenting and moderate with a very heavy hand if we see more abuse.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 08:51 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 09:01 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 09:09 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 06:03 pm (UTC)I had issues with using the challenge for that, but am more open to previous strategies such as encouraging VJs to seek out vids that feature underrepresented minorities.
This has worked very well for the con in the past couple of years, and I hope they'll continue to do that. I'd also like to see more people of color, disabled, and otherwise marginalized folks leading panels and VJing shows, but I'm not sure what's the best way to encourage that to happen, apart from having these conversations.
It's discouraging to hear that "quality" of comments during panels and knowledge of previous vids would be used to judge the extent to which someone really belongs at VVC and fear that reading this will make some people even more reluctant to speak up during panels.
I was very unspecific in that part of my post, but I'm not talking here about comments that I personally found unhelpful. I think people who are new to VVC, and/or new to the particular community it has tended to represent, should always be welcome to attend, ask questions, and bring stuff up that may not necessarily be new to other attendees.
My problem was actually that at times when I would've expected those new to this con/this community to ask questions, there was some...lecturing is the wrong word, but explaining going on. I'm all for hearing about how vidders from other communities do things, but sometimes it seemed pretty irrelevant to the discussion. And historically, in western culture, that is a behavior that men do tend to engage in when speaking to women.
I think this is mostly a case of everyone being sensitive to various cultural norms (mainstream sexism but also the norms of traditionally female-dominated fannish space) and trying to listen and understand one another.
And it probably would've been helpful if I'd said it that way in the OP!
no subject
on 2009-08-20 07:49 pm (UTC)at this point, though, i'm not the person to get feedback about making cons better for poc because i cannot be bothered. too much fail.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:33 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 08:49 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:12 pm (UTC)So maybe you need to work to be more aware and incorporate feedback like your girlfriend gave you, and mods need to try and balance the discussion, and other participants need to consider whether they're deferring to what men have to say, and other more vocal people need to pay attention to how much they're talking.
At Vividcon, people are enthusiastic, and that's an awesome thing. No one wants to take that fun and that enthusiasm away, you know?
no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:01 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:06 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:13 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:06 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:10 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:01 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:47 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:54 pm (UTC)As others have also said, it may be best to notice your and other people's behavior in the room at the time and take your cues from that.
no subject
on 2009-08-24 08:14 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-24 08:29 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:12 pm (UTC)So, maybe the cluelessness was mine? But that's not what I expected from the prompt IDIC in the context of fandom here-and-now.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:21 pm (UTC)It's important to keep reminding myself that not everybody has my reading list, not everybody has the same conversations I have, not everybody belongs to the same community. Fandom, and vidding within it, is many communities, and they don't all have the same conversations.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 11:23 pm (UTC)And while I cheered to see a Hardison Leverage vid and an Ellison SCC vid at the con, I was hoping for maybe an TOS/AOS Uhura vids, or Wendy-centric The Middleman vids because those are faces we don't see in vids, and characters whose stories I am interested in. Even SGA vids that I can think of from premieres tend to default to John and Rodney over Teyla and Ronon (which is aprt of why I tend to be "meh" on SGA, because I watch the show for Teyla and Ronon, personally).
So I went into the show with specific expectations, and came out of it disappointed because my assumptions more than the vids themselves in many ways dictated my reactions. I get that the vids are often constrained by the source, we still make choices when we (and by "we" I mean "vidders" since obvs. I only vid once in a blue moon) choose to vid one source over another, or focus on one character over another. I just wish it didn't take a challenge to motivate folks to vid more characters of colour, I guess is what I'm saying.
(eta: edited to specify which SPN vid I was talking about)
no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:12 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:19 am (UTC)The last thing I want to see is tokenizing. I think your ideas for positive reinforcement are great and I hope more people get involved in those things. I am speaking of myself first and foremost, too: I need to do better.
no subject
on 2009-08-20 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 12:44 am (UTC)I didn't interpret IDIC as a challenge solely about culture and race. This may be because I didn't see the context in which it was suggested at last year's VVC, nor the discussion that surrounded it. It may be because I don't have any sort of Star Trek background, if the concept was implicit in its source. It might also be that due to my biology background, I followed a train of thought along the lines of diversity -> biodiversity -> inter and intraspecies competition.
It may be cultural touch points, it may be that this is the first time I have encountered the concept of IDIC, or it may be that I'm clueless/ignorant. For whatever reason, I didn't think of IDIC as a challenge solely and specifically about race, culture, gender, etc., until people started talking about how the majority of challenge vids did not fit the theme.
I made a vid that framed a show about a serial killer as an episode of a different show about people who catch serial killers. Set to a genre-crossing cover song, no less. Though it utilizes characters of colour from canons, I will be the first to admit that it fails as a vid about race and culture. I do however feel that it fits the challenge as presented, as do 'Land' and 'Choose Life.'
no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:33 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:06 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 03:24 pm (UTC)Based on what elynross has said here, and numerous commenters have reiterated, your interpretation of the IDIC challenge was both what the concom intended and what many, many people understood it to be. So I don't think there's any reason for you to feel bad about the vid you submitted.
FWIW, I think the vid is excellent -- no surprise to you, I'm sure, since I'm a huge fan of your work. I was confused to see it in that show, but my confusion and disappointment were due to my own expectations, and not anything wrong with what you were doing.
This may be rather tl;dr.
on 2009-08-23 12:58 am (UTC)Reading through some of the other comments here, I think there are two main differences in where I was coming from:
1) I wasn't present when the challenge idea was suggested, and was unfamiliar with the context and discussion that surrounded it; and
2) I am unfamiliar with Star Trek. This was my first encounter with the term, and it appears that the canon imparts connotations I was unfamiliar with. As it was, it was a concept from a show I have little to no context for that would be applied to a different fandom. For me, that placed it in a crossover context immediately.
This leads into another point I've been thinking about for a while, of which this is only an example: I think it's important for all of us to remember that we have different backgrounds, even in reference to foundational or historical fandoms.
All that unnecessary rambling aside, this type of diversity isn't something I've spent a lot of time thinking about specifically in my vids, which is disturbing to me. A look shows me that I've used characters of colour in what I consider to be important role or as a focus character in eight of my twelve vids; this does not, however, pardon my lack of thought. As such, I'm quite grateful for this discussion -- thank you.
FWIW, I think the vid is excellent -- no surprise to you, I'm sure, since I'm a huge fan of your work.
Thank you -- I'm so glad to hear that, despite your disconnect. You know how much respect I have for you, so that means a lot.
Re: This may be rather tl;dr.
on 2009-08-23 01:36 am (UTC)This. In 72 point type.
And I'm glad the discussion has been valuable for you. Thanks for that.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:00 am (UTC)See, I think I get where you're going with this, that it's better to be able to objectify men's bodies in this environment because in Real Life, the media always operates the other way around. And I agree with this so hard. The female gaze is what I love the most about VVC, but I get the impression that your underlying assumption is that it's a heterosexual one.
Go Baby appeals to my gaze. A lot. It also appeals to the gaze of a lot of chauvinist men out there, which is a fact that I do struggle to reconcile with on a regular basis. You may want to ask the vidder's thoughts on this subject before making a generalised statement. I'm not saying that either of our readings is 'right' because both can be problematic. The fact that Charlie's Angels is the product of male desires, and within the text are subservient to Charlie is a very big problem, but there aren't that many better examples (barring DEBS (http://jarrow.livejournal.com/1086522.html) in all its awesomeness) that appeal to the same gaze. And this is where re-appropriation can come into play.
Again, I don't know the vidder's intentions, but I'd hazard a guess that if she could spend a year meticulously working on That Other Vid, this is the sort of thing that she enjoys looking at too. And I'm uncomfortable with the idea of claiming all women's interests and desires as one big monolithic entity.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:49 am (UTC)I'm actually queer myself, but I found it impossible to connect with the vid as erotic because my tastes are pretty far from those depicted in the vid -- in, I presume, the movies as well. To me, the women were being presented in such an infantilized manner that all I could think was that they were being served up on a plate for straight men. There was nothing in the vid that said "reappropriation" to me.
But I recognize that that's very personal, and that a lot of lesbians and bisexual women would find "Go Baby" appealing for much the same reason that a straight man would.
I apologize for fomenting an unfortunate assumption.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 07:28 am (UTC)I saw the ass-kicking and ass0shaking both as very overt expressions of female power, in spite/because of the sexist 70s origin/assumptions of Charlie's Angels. To me, the vid does read like reappropriation.
It's also fun visual eye candy (to a song I like) from the technical perspective, so it works that way for me too.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:14 pm (UTC)When I made my Martha vid last year, I did include some very sexy shots of her body and face, but I thought hard about each one in its context. There are some gratuitous ass shots that I purposely left out because I didn't want to objectify her -- for me, female objectification is always going to have a different feeling than male objectification, because of the sexism we all have to deal with.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 01:05 pm (UTC)I really didn't expect to comment on this post, but I then felt the need to "chime" in to make 0mindthegap0 less of a minority. One thing I've found problematic as a voracious consumer of vids for many years is the lack of 'my gaze'. People should vid what they enjoy, and I'm not proscribing any differently, but it just so happens that a largely hetrosexual female space makes it common that the fun, sexy vids are largely constructed through the lens of male objectification. And this makes me feel a bit lonely. I would love to see more fannish vids through a gaze that sexualizes women -- not directly as simply objects for men, but just... women! sexualized! as objects of romantic longing & desire! [I find this a large distinction - fannish product vs. mainstream mass media product. I know there's mainstream stuff for people who are attracted to women, but I like the creativity, the interaction with the source material, the fannish products!] And yep, my personal queer gaze enjoys beautiful women in drag... but it also includes shameless cleavage! tight pants! school girl outfits! and ass shaking! I'm a complicated woman, what can I say? ;)
I have empathy for the female vidding audience and their space, and I know it's not 100% straight, but I feel like the female hetrosexual majority should be welcoming of disparate voices (even if they are uncomfortable ones). This may sound strange, but I honestly don't feel like the preponderance of slash necessarily makes the vidding fandom less hetrocentric.
P.S. on my wishlist of Other Kinds of Diversity I'd Love to See, I'd also include more queer character representation (not just slash, which is great don't get me wrong - but also a focus on more canon queer characters). There's been some (the L Word vid I saw the time I attended VVC was gorgeous), and I'm not saying it's ignored... but just that if I ruled the world as a cruel, sexy dictator I'd want there to be more. I know it's also a media representation problem, and again I really don't want to tell people what to vid, but some characters are out there: The Wire, Dawson's Creek, Brothers & Sisters, Skins, Deadwood, The L Word, Queer as Folk, Six Feet Under, Entourage, Will & Grace, Hollyoaks, Kick, True Blood, Kings, Greek, Jekyll, Degrassi, Sleeper Cell, Torchwood, South of Nowhere, Sugar Rush, Hex, Noah's Arc, The OC, One Tree Hill, Once and Again, Dark Angel, My So Called Life, etc. (Plus tons of movies)
no subject
on 2009-08-22 07:29 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-23 02:37 pm (UTC)This may sound strange, but I honestly don't feel like the preponderance of slash necessarily makes the vidding fandom less hetrocentric.
I don't think that's strange at all. I wish more people would talk about it.
If you haven't before, I recommend checking out charmax's vids. She makes a lot of f/f stuff. You might also want to check out Kitze Productions (http://www.kitzeproductions.net/) for some Queer as Folk and Hex vids, as awell as a wonderful Angels in America vid.
And I'll be releasing a f/f vid this year for Escapade, god willing and the creek don't rise.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:14 am (UTC)It made me feel inhibited. And I wondered if the fans in the background of those photos were going to be cropped out.
This sort of assumption of male privilege happens at SF/F and anime cons, but I never saw it at VVC before.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 05:37 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 07:34 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 01:38 pm (UTC)I know it must have felt like everyone in the room ended up in the photos, due to the big flash, but really the lighting in there keptt things very much to the select few people he was taking pictures of (having seen the results). Of course, nobody was to know this at the time and the complaints are totally understandable. I was only comfortable with the photos because I knew the photographer and knew they were private.
Yes, we need to protect the space within which we are all comfortable, that is vital and absolutely certain. At the same time Club Vivid is a big party and a lot of people put a great deal of effort into their costumes so it would be a shame if people weren't allowed to take photos at all. In any case, the concom need to make a decision about it - perhaps no photos in the main room will be it. That certainly seems like the simplest solution.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:05 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:43 pm (UTC)For me it wasn't that any photos were taken of friends at a party (because I think VVC is small enough still to feel like friends getting together), but that it seemed to be an awful lot of photos from more of a distance away, by someone I didn't know. The flashes were distracting me from just having fun and dancing, and there was a sense of being observed from outside that is unusual at a fannish gathering.
Given that I'm used to people taking photos carefully at cons, with the rule of not posting any of people without stated permission (never mind the issue of identification with or without pseuds), it was eyebrow-raising in general for me.
Laura's VVC 2009 Post
on 2009-08-21 08:42 am (UTC)Lately, health limitations have meant that even when a post/email is of great interest, I can seldom respond. Lots of responses get written in my head, few make it onto paper. This post, which raises so many issues that are central to my life, gave me the extra impetus to at least voice my appreciation for your write-up and the resulting discussion, even if I'm unable to comment as fully as I would like.
I was wincing in advance when I first read your post (necessary as I think it is) because I was dreading the comments. Having seen so much disappointing behavior in fannish furors over the years (with numerous spectacular examples this year already), my hopes for civil and productive discussion were faint. But faint though they were, those hopes have been amply realized, thanks in no small part to your efforts.
I'm pleased and relieved that most are commenting in a thoughtful fashion given so many potential flashpoints: the wide variety of complex topics you raise, that they incorporate both operational con issues and sociological/philosophical issues for vidders and vidding as an art form/craft, and the fact that many VVC attendees are dealing with heightened sensitivities in the immediate post-con and re-entry period.
On a very personal level, I'm particularly pleased that many comments I wanted to address but wasn't sure I'd be able to respond to are being ably handled by a variety of people - some known to me and some new. I foresee a fair bit of perusing new-to-me journals in the future. *g*
Thanks again.
Re: Laura's VVC 2009 Post
on 2009-08-21 02:45 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 09:55 am (UTC)I like talking about Access at cons, and have created a community at Dreamwidth to that effect: (http://access-fandom.dreamwidth.org/profile)access_fandom (http://access-fandom.dreamwidth.org/)
no subject
on 2009-08-21 02:29 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 03:14 pm (UTC)on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 01:21 pm (UTC)As I've said elsewhere, I'm very non-visual. An example: My grandmother-in-law recently repainted her living room. This is a room I've been in once or twice a month for the past eight years, and I had no idea the walls were a new color until she asked me what I thought of it. I have a reasonably good mental image of the color the walls are now (that is, I'm about 80% sure I remember it correctly), because I had to come up with something to say about it; but I have absolutely no idea what color they used to be. Another example: I may have been talking face-to-face with someone for ten minutes, but if I look away I probably won't know whether they're wearing glasses or not.
On the other hand, I'm extremely text-oriented. Which is great for my job, but the two together mean that my eye is strongly drawn to text in preference to pictures. When there is text on the screen (as in the Karaoke vidshow), it's hard for me to attend to the images; if a vid plays at Karaoke that I haven't seen before, I pretty much still haven't seen it afterward, unless I made a continuous effort to force myself to ignore the text.
Which doesn't negate the opposite concerns of others, of course. But just to have the alternative concern out there as well. Hence, I'd personally want to leave the choice of hard (non-optional, always visible) subtitles entirely up to the vidder, like other aspects of her work (I personally wouldn't tell a vidder that she had to show or not show subtitles any more than I'd tell her she couldn't use ultra-quick cuts or had to tint her images blue), and vastly prefer optional (viewer-controlled) subtitles on discs or downloadable versions.
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 02:04 pm (UTC)I do think that if we can generate a groundswell of support for subtitling vids, that's a wonderful thing for the community (for a whole lot of reasons -- there are more comments on this on the DW post), and at that point it would make sense to, say, turn them on by default in the overflow room for Club Vivid and Premieres. That would give the vast majority of people a choice about whether to see subtitles or not.
And having them on the DVDs just means you can use them or not, as you see fit, just as having them on your Blip or YouTube stream means you can use them or not.
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 02:17 pm (UTC)Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 02:26 pm (UTC)In any event, I don't consider subtitles a purely artistic choice, so I don't have a big problem with making them mandatory for the DVDs -- the same way using the correct encoding format when submitting a vid is mandatory. But it doesn't look to me like the concom is leaning that way. I imagine there will need to be a lot more discussion before it gets settled.
Whatever happens, though, my point was that it's always going to be possible for you to watch vids without subtitles!
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 03:26 pm (UTC)Speaking of barriers to submitting vid- vidders are already struggling with encoding. Asking them to subtitle each vid would cut down on the numbers of vid submissions (which may be a good thing according to some). Personally, I’d never made a vid for a convention that required subtitles because I can barely mange making the vid. Not that I will be making any more vids on my own it seems. ;-)
On some days it seems it me that we're debating who are we going to exclude by making some of these choices mandatory (or not). So I think you should try to get people enthused to do it voluntarily by offering the subtitles (like you’ve been doing.) Ian also helped by making it clear that if you submit subtitles it is an easy process for him to add them to the DVD. And then I’d also try to tie this back into the discussion of asking people who are hearing impaired who are attending the convention what would make this a better experience. And then balance that against what the convention can actually do. And then balance that against what burden it will place on the vidders. And the viewers.
A lotta balancing going on for something the majority of vidders haven’t even begun appreciating yet (sadly).
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 03:52 pm (UTC)Balance is key, as you've said.
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 04:15 pm (UTC)on a side note: I have 3 sets of deaf aunts/uncles. When they were visiting me in college i said: hey let's 's rent a movie.(this was before closed captioning TV). They looked at me sadly (and somewhat annoyedly). I went off and rented a swedish foreign language film with subtitles (Babette's feast).
my long winded way of saying: keep pushing for subtitling as an option. and push to make it more appealing for vidders to supply and to see the need to offer it..
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 05:18 pm (UTC)And don't worry, I will keep pushing for subtitles as a great option that's easy for vidders to implement. It's kind of my obsession at the moment. (:
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-21 05:53 pm (UTC)(Welcome to how my work life and my fannish life intersect NOT AT ALL, when it comes to vidding. Webdesign and graphic design? EASY PEASY. Non-linnear editing? I am on another planet. That said, I so so so want to leant After Effects omg SO BADLY for work-work, and fan work.)
(Also, yay instant karaoke yay)
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-22 03:07 pm (UTC)Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-22 12:38 am (UTC)Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-22 07:27 am (UTC)ETA: Before I forget to throw it into the mix, my sensory issues associated with Asperger's and PTSD are such that Club Vivid is entirely intolerable to me: I can't handle the noise/volume, the movement, the low light, the flashing lights, the crowd, the confusion/chaos (as I perceive it), the heat. What I love about that aspect is that, for me, there was the option simply to go into the con suite and watch the vids THERE in peace and quiet...and often with one or two others who were entirely overwhelmed by the dance club scene. I find that alternative to be very helpful and, for me, entirely adequate to meeting my needs and not leaving me out.
Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-23 05:27 am (UTC)Re: on subtitles
on 2009-08-25 10:28 pm (UTC)I'm just going to throw out there that many people watch Club Vivid vids in the con suite (and it's not an overflow room, it's a vid-watching room) and premieres in the Comet Room for a variety of reasons. Essentially forcing those folks to choose between having the vid-watching experience fundamentally altered by the required inclusion of subtitles (regardless of whether anyone actually watching in those rooms needs them or would benefit from them) would be rather unfair to the people who choose to watch in those rooms for other reasons.
I'm absolutely and completely in favor of having the subtitles available as an option on the DVD sets. I'm not in favor of insisting they be turned on in rooms that serve a valuable vid-watching function and fundamentally changing that experience, particularly without any evidence the people watching in those rooms want them to be turned on.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 10:05 pm (UTC)Doors to panel rooms and guest rooms seem wide enough to admit a wheelchair, but I would like to get confirmation on that if anyone can.
Abby came for many many years in her wheelchair and was able to get in and out of rooms and panels, etc. with no issues as far as I know.
no subject
on 2009-08-21 10:08 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-21 11:03 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 07:29 am (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-22 02:09 am (UTC)ETA: It bugged me that I couldn't remember the poster, so I looked at the vividcon flist and found the post here. (http://morgandawn.livejournal.com/1043879.html)
no subject
on 2009-08-22 03:29 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-23 05:31 am (UTC)Abby needed a personal assistant (or a friendly fan) if the way was blocked by chairs (people move the chairs around during panels). unless the doors to the panel rooms and vid shows were open, she needed someone to open them for her - they are not self-opening.
but diannemerlec can offer more accurate info.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 07:43 am (UTC)Given the strict rules about entering and leaving rooms, and given the aisle sizes, she had to arrive at the (usually first) vid show early, have someone hold the door nearer the screen for her (she couldn't get past the other chairs), then move chairs out of the way so she could park. She couldn't leave between vid shows she wanted to see because there wasn't enough time for her to get out of the room, to the con suite or the hotel room, and then back. She could sometimes skip one vid show then return for the next, but often she would stay through all the shows she wantd to watch and many of the ones in between. This worked since she mostly wanted to watch lots of vids.
The biggest flaw of the hotel building itself in terms of accessibility is that the accessible rooms (which are quite nice and, in the case of the one at the East end of the 2nd floor, tremendously spacious) are located behind HEAVY non-automatic doors.
The second biggest flaw of the hotel is that, for the first five years of the con, they advertised having an accessible shuttle--which they most assuredly did not--AND said on the phone that their shuttle was accessible. The first two years there was ONE guy who knew how to beat and coax and manually activate the lift into functioning (think TARDIS operations), but no one after that knew, and by last year, the hotel had finally removed the listing from its web site. This is all in spite of repeated complaints, communications with the hotel, and specific questions about whether the lift had been fixed. Despite those specific questions, they would show up with the van and all but do the thing, which Abby and diannelamerc talked about having seen where someone would ask if she was SURE she couldn't walk just a couple of steps so they could fold up the chair and put it into the shuttle bus. By the third year, Abby had given up and I would pick them up at the airport, bring the luggage to the hotel, and they would take the blue line and walk--which, given the street, meant walking IN the street as there is no sidewalk on the hotel side of the street nor a crosswalk from over the road at the hotel (and I'm not sure the sidewalk across the street is continuous or has curb cuts--it never became valuable to check).
Abby's level of mobility was such that, even had there been automatic doors that were between the elevators and the accessible room/s, she was not able to push the button to activate the door/s so she was limited by what others would volunteer to do and what she would ask for, and, like so many women and people with disabilities, she tried to save up her requests since she needed to ask for so very many things and because she didn't want to call any more attention to herself.
no subject
on 2009-08-22 02:46 pm (UTC)The shuttle thing pisses me right off.
no subject
on 2009-08-25 12:31 pm (UTC)I was especially interested in the discussion on queer female gaze vs. male gaze in vids. I don't vid myself but I watch a lot of vids, and it seems difficult to use material that's probably filmed from male perspective in the first place, and to look at the same clips from desiring female perspective. It seems there are a lot of ways to show male gaze clips about men so that they're seen through the slash goggles, but I wonder if it's possible to do that to clips about women. Interesting subject, certainly!
Anyway, thanks for the post and hosting the discussion! It's fantastic that you brought up so many points and that people responded. I hope you'll get lots of free time now that there aren't so many comments coming in anymore!
no subject
on 2009-08-25 03:17 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2009-08-25 10:52 pm (UTC)There have been some vid ideas I have had that I didn't do because I thought that I didn't come from exactly the right perspective and I would probably screw it up, be misunderstood, and despised by all.
There are other issues that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole because I know for a fact that I would screw them up. I remember at the con that there was one woman who mentioned that she would like to see more vids with Hindu symbolism. That would be awesome - especially now with the increasing popularity of Bollywood movies and how visually stunning some of them are.
As Hinduism goes, I can recognize three gods, have glanced through a couple of comic books, and have listened to one lecture on the history of Indian philosophy which probably puts me ahead of a lot of people. If I tried to watch some Bollywood movies and vid them or take a Hindu character from some other show and explore his relationship with his faith, I would fail spectacularly. I would likely either hit upon some stereotype that I was unaware of and insult everyone or look like I was trying to do something exotic which would insult everyone. And I would probably do this even if I made a serious effort to learn a lot more about Hindu culture before the attempt.
It's never useful to underestimate my ability to screw up royally, piss people off and feel horribly ashamed of myself. If there is something wrong to be said, I will say it. If there is something wrong to do, I will do it. The more effort I put into trying to make sure it doesn't happen, the more likely it is that it will occur. Saying I'm sorry afterwards almost never seems to help no matter how sincerely I mean it.
I am absolutely not looking for sympathy for the fact that I am an anxious moron, chronic fuck up and giant coward. I just wanted to articulate that I am probably not alone in this, that it is probably a part of the problem to be solved and unfortunately, I have no idea whatsoever how to get past it.
I can see intellectually that for society as a whole, it is better to have more people speak and for many of them screw up and get it wrong most of the time and hopefully get it right at least sometimes than to have so many people stay quiet. The consequences to the individual for screwing up are obvious and clear. The benefits of taking risk to acheive something good are real but far less tangible. I wish I knew how to overcome this. I don't. I am not saying that there isn't an answer to this problem - just that I've been dealing with it for nearly 40 years now and I've got nothing.
no subject
on 2009-08-27 03:02 pm (UTC)Maybe taking on a project like "a vid of Hindu symbolism" isn't a great place to start. Why not focus on the characters you love, that you can connect to, the way vidders always do? Why not a Hardison vid, for example?
no subject
on 2009-08-27 05:42 pm (UTC)It's just that I either haven't come up with any ideas for those characters or when I do, I sit there beating myself up over them.
It isn't entirely a race issue. I have all sorts of reasons why I convince myself that vid ideas will fall flat. Ex. It would be neat to cast Hardison as vidder somehow but, I've already done the vid casting TV characters as vidders so, probably won't make that vid. Race is simply one of the ones that is more fraught.
Another vid idea I had - was to do a Pride and Prejudice vid to RESPECT by Aretha Franklin. If you think about it, she and Mr. Darcy are in very much the same situation. They are both far more financially stable and successful than anyone they are likely to marry and fully expect a certain amount of consideration for that. It kind of flips typical race and gender expectations. And I've always thought Mr. Darcy had a bigger stick up his ass than any character in the history of Western Literature. Wouldn't it be hilarious to vid him to R&B;? I suspect, though, that to people who are not me, it would do the opposite and evoke Minstral show. Not doing that one.
I am a little upset with myself over the vid I did for Frasier and Dief a few years ago. I didn't think about it while I was making it but, I saw the song as basically being about partners challenging each other to be better when, really, it is about partners challenging each other to be better to overcome the challenges of racism. I just cut out the parts of the song that made that clear and made it a cute story about a white guy and his white dog. No one has ever mentioned it to me. Maybe no one knows the original song. I still think it was probably a bone-headed maneuver.
no subject
on 2009-08-28 07:58 pm (UTC)I'd suggest that the beating yourself up part, while a common aspect of the vidding process for many people, is not doing you -- or your viewers! -- any favors. Why not stop?
Personally, I'd love to see your RESPECT P&P; vid, and it doesn't evoke minstrel show to me. But if you're really worried about it, you could ask a lot of other people, or try to find a different song that's got the same basic message.
I remember your Dief vid! I'd never heard the song before, so I can't say I found anything problematic about it. But it's perfectly okay to look at stuff you once did and think "I won't do that again." The point is not to berate yourself, but to go out and do better next time.