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BURNINGBIRD
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tilting at windmills since 2001
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May 07, 2003
Warning: Big time rant. Male/Female thing. Read at own risk. Being a woman trying to find a place amoung the techie guys isn't easy, particularly since the areas of technology of interest to me rarely have other women participants. Don't have to believe me, take a look at the RSS-Dev group, the RDF interest groups, most of the W3C working groups and so on. Sometimes the group participation has been good. I'm rather partial to the RDF working group because in the newsgroups, they always worked with me. However, in a lot of groups, particularly the RSS-Dev group, I am for the most part ignored. That's not a lot of fun. It seems no matter what I do, I don't have the respect of a lot of the players. Not all players -- there's good people here abouts that never 'held' me being a woman against me. (Me not laying down a 100+ lines of code a day they might hold against me, but not being a woman. And I can live with this.) The seemingly winless battle for respect over the last few years probably accounts for over 50% of my recent burnout. I'm not sure if any of you understand what its like not being sure if the reason you're ignored in most of these groups is because you're a woman, or an idiot. I guess I would prefer to think it was because I'm a woman. I seem to do okay on my jobs, and I've had some pretty tough technical jobs. But you just don't know, and it eats at you. All the time. Takes your confidence and just tears it apart. After I returned from my last trip, I felt renewed and ready to take on challenges again, especially after coming back to be met with the generosity of so many of you, helping me keep this weblog and my sites going. I started my work again with RDF, which I really do love. In particular, I started participating on Internet-related groups again -- something I'm more than a bit wary of. When things got bad at one email group I took the moderator up on his request to start another group, and started Bloggers Unlimited, and it grew. It's now at 7698 members. The conversations started out pretty good. There was a quiet time in the middle, but for most part, consistent discussion. It's a bit too techy for the audience at times, but manageable. However, I began to notice a distinctive behavior pattern with this group. There was a very strong dominant male presence, which I know left me feeling pushed out of most of the conversations. When the group fell silent for a few days, and then started up again, another member, a male member, was given credit for rejuvenating the group; and here is me, taking quiet pride in thinking I was the one that had sparked it back to life. What was worse is that most of the comments I made were ignored. I began to feel invisible. The same old feeling of inadequacy. We had some crankiness among the male members a bit early on, but it smoothed out, and the group went back on track. Again, I hoped I helped on this and I suppose this is a nurturing female type of thing, but I didn't want to be the nurturing female in this one act play. I started questioning myelf: Is it just me? Am I asking dumb questions? I decided to get another party's opinion, and asked Liz today if she noticed this. Was I being paranoid? Did I have a valid concern? She responded with this posting after first giving me heads up and asking if I wanted to respond instead. I declined. Liz wrote:
I was somewhat relieved to feel vindicated in my read of the group responses, because Liz is not one to call out sexism, either lightly or easily. On the other hand, though, I was more than a little discouraged to see her comment about me getting mad, because I've taken such care on the list not to be mad, to stay calm, even when baited. And I have been baited. Not just in the list but in emails. Why won't I take such and such down? Why won't I hold such and such to task? Well, if I want to be walked on, that's my problem. When Liz talked in her posting about rather reading Jeneane and Halley's comments, I know that she's making a point about being among people that appreciate each other. And I understand this. However, the impact on me is that I feel left out among both the men and the women. That I have no place with either group. So where does this leave me? Most likely bowing out on the groups, though I'm continuing my RDF work here in my weblog, with just my readers who are interested. I most likely will not get involved in any of these groups in the future. I am disappointed at the guys in the list (not all, just some) who seem to have little regard for what I say (and I still have to live with that old worry, now, whether it's because I'm a woman, or because I'm making stupid comments.) But I'm also disappointed at the women in the group. Why didn't they speak out? Why did I have to speak out, alone? Do they know how hard it is to be the only woman talking in these groups? Where were they when I needed them? I have some very bad stuff going on in my life now, which I'm not going to talk about here because its deeply personal and, respectfully, lovingly, none of your business. But I don't have the energy to fight these battles now. I may not ever again in the future. I'm not walking away from the tech again. I am enjoying my interaction with those who are interested in the RDF Poetry Finder. It may not be sexy lines of code, at least not yet; but this could be the first weblog-based group participation in a project that involves both technical and non-technical people, and it's a really fun project. At least, I hope so. When we're finished, we'll be able to offer it as a search engine implementation to sites such as Plagiarist and other literature, writing, and poetry related sites. Perhaps even the Guttenberg project. It's a difference. A small difference, but a difference. It's not changing the face of the Web, or even of Google -- but it's a start. It may not be sexy, but it's doable. I guess when it is up and running, and we can all look back and bask in the glow of our efforts, then that question I have about my worth in technology will be answered. Because it's not going to get answered in email forums where the women stay silent, and the jerks dominate. I will say this, though: social software is never going to fly if there isn't some way to control the peacocks, as Liz called them, and the peahens don't stop standing in the shadows. Update: I hope that the participants in the RDF Poetry Finder are not put off by this posting. Believe me when I say this wasn't written lightly, and I'm aware it will make people uncomfortable. But it was something I had to say. And, note: I am also aware that I could be wrong in my interpretation -- touchy I might be, but at least I try to be honest with myself. Well, I think.
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The IT Girls Sorry, Shelley. You _know_ no offense was intended. And you qualify as "person I'm least likely to ignore" in both blogrolls and lists. I didn't participate in the list because I just didn't have time. Didn't post much on my blog(s) during that time, either. And most of the conversation was happening at a level that I don't have a lot of interest in. In general, I'm a lot less enthusiastic about mailing lists than I am about blogs these days. Blogs allow the owner to have a clear voice, without it being drowned out in quoted and re-quoted and re-re-quoted responses that clog mailboxes and overwhelm readers. As to the getting mad...well, in my book, there's nothing wrong with that. I got mad, too. But I quit the list, and turned off comments on my post. The equivalent of sticking out my tongue and slamming the door. Not so sure that's a "better" approach. Posted by: Liz on May 7, 2003 06:52 PM Talkback (Name link)I'm not sure it's so fair for the women to stick together and be so "for each other". I'm not sexist at all, I've made a post about women and the gender bias back in the day of my early blogging, but I don't understand why, if you wanted the truth, you would turn to someone who is going to be much more likely to sympathize with you? Why not turn to another male and ask them their opinion, one who seems level headed to you and who you know has a history of making great decisions. This whole gender split is getting so silly. It's not women versus men anymore, in my eyes. It's instigators versus placators. Some people are warlike and some just like to be calm and collected, and it's not representative at all to make such sharp divides. In a world so virtual and so different and so ambiguous as this one, gender does not have to play a part. You can't even see the face of the person you're talking to, yet people make these huge gender biases all the time. It's getting to me, it really is. Pettiness doesn't stop at the real world, and I'm ashamed of myself for thinking that. I'm not here to flame you at all, Shelley. I love your blog, it's fantastic, and you're a wonderful person. From what I've seen, women tend to be more friendly than men, but it's a sad day in Internet life when you reach someone's blog and the first thing that pops into your head is the question of whether they're male or female. I just think the pettiness needs to stop. Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you, or Liz, I'm not, I just am disappionted in some people and their actions. Posted by: Brendyn on May 7, 2003 07:14 PM Talkback (Name link)I know no offense was intended, at all Liz. I used to like email lists, but it seems in the last 4-5 years, something's changed. I'll stay with blogging, but I miss interacting with people in my field. BTW, I checked and you are unsubscribed from the list. Not sure why you're getting email still. Probably Yahoo -- dinosaur brain you know, takes it awhile to feel the kick in the tail. But Brendyn, you post your picture at your blog -- a male in his 20's who's a techie. Um, you're not exactly an outsider in the field. You see no gender bias -- but how many women do you even see in the field? How many women, in the groups? How many women in your classes? Even by your comment, your assumption is that there is no bias, and that I must be paranoid or seeing things that don't exist. Well, I know that most of my readers most likely will. I can live with this. I'm not asking parity, or marching for equal rights -- but I am asking for respect. And I feel I'm more likely to get it if there were more women talking in these groups. You don't think its necessary? That's cool. But after close to 20 years in this field, I sure would like a little more female company in what I call the R & D technologies. Just me. Not working for change. Just trying to find my niche. Posted by: Shelley on May 7, 2003 07:22 PM Talkback (Name link)I was a little frustrated at something I got in my inbox when I posted that, so it might have come off a scosch bit snappier than I would have liked. If you find your niche, Shelley, please tell me, because I'd like to be a part of it. I know I'm going against my will to be non-bias, but women, i've found, are far less quarrelsome than men. So if you find a niche of women, please allow me to be one of the men to join, because the penis envy becomes too much for me, even. Again, sorry if it came off negatively, I just got a rather immature response from someone who I'm sure you can guess, in response to a post I made on the mail list. You probably saw it as well, he posted it to the whole group. Oh well, such is life. Just realize this stuff will pass. I'm a guy, I'll be your friend and I'll gladly help the crusade for women in the IT world. Ask Liz, haha, I'm a little sycophantical at first, but I get my stuff straight after a while. Enjoy your night :) Posted by: Brendyn on May 7, 2003 07:34 PM Talkback (Name link)Ugh, sorry to double post. But I forgot to reply to the first part of your reply... a) the picture was unconcious, it was more of a "claiming my territory and getting to know me" type thing than "I'm a male". I'm only 18 :) but thanks for the compliment! And the point of the "Am I male or female?" question being pathetic is, there are so many more things worth caring about than gender. b) I see very few women in the field. However, the only people I care to work with above others are women. They're great, I can't lie. I'd work with a woman over a man any day. Honestly, blogging is great, I love the community, whether it has it's ups and downs or not. I'll keep on blogging. I'm like a mail man. :) Again, enjoy your night (Hopefully I won't have to reply to myself again :\ Posted by: Brendyn on May 7, 2003 07:38 PM Talkback (Name link)I disagree with your interpretation of events. Most of us are here because we're trying to understand community and RSS/RDF. I'm not at Dave's or Mark's place. If other people don't hear you because someone else is shouting, don't stop talking because those closer in can still hear you. I am very uncomfortable about all that Blokiness (aust slang) which comes out in those lists. But many of us lurkers are listening to your voice. I thought the list had died, you took the link off your page, we said it had gone. When Marc barged back in, he did the same thing he does in real life. He's a party animal, gets everyone talking. My comments were never meant to detract from you (more because I've known Marc since 1987 but had not had much contact with him for some years). Please keep using your voice of reason. Some of us listen to talking and devalue the shouting. Yes, and males are ept to do a bit of shouting. Please continue to do your thing. It's appreciated. Posted by: marius on May 7, 2003 08:22 PM Talkback (Name link)And Marius you could be very right, and I know you didn't mean your comments to detract. Perhaps what I should have done is some shouting of my own in the group. I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that I'm really tired at the moment. But I appreciate that your disagreement with me is so civil. What a refreshing change from other disagreements lately. Blokiness? New one for me. And Brendyn, 18? Well, you look older. And it was a cool thing you did in the email to the group. You'll all have to give me a lot of slack in the next couple of months. I'm going to have bad days and good. And I'll try not to blame the male race all the time -- just when appropriate. Posted by: Shelley on May 7, 2003 08:34 PM Talkback (Name link)Sorry, slip of the tongue -- male _sex_ Posted by: Shelley on May 7, 2003 08:34 PM Talkback (Name link)Well, as I tried to say on my own post to the group, I don't think doing any "shouting of our own" is going to help. I think reasoned discussion, thoughtful and exuberant in its own way, can. I think Marc does that (to take Marius' point there). He's a bringer-together more than a splitter-aparter from what I can see - but not a shouter so much as a voice that carries across a room. Someone cited a quote the other day, about how when a dinosaur's foot is coming down, it gives the evolving mammals plenty of time to get out of the way. I think the same can be said for discussion areas - not that anyone making the chest-pounding is a dinosaur; brains too big, contributions too pertinent, etc. But that the conversation can flow around the disruptions. (must learn to map metaphorical drift in my fatiqued writing....) Posted by: Eric Sinclair on May 7, 2003 10:37 PM Talkback (Name link)I am woefully behind catching up with all that's gone on with this thread and the lists -- due to the fact that I must learn a lot of technical stuff myself in the next few weeks -- but I meant to tell you Shelley that I have been reading your site and the various debates around the issues you bring up for quite some time now and also that you have helped me think and re-think both the way I approach technology and writing on the web. Like liz and marius, I prefer to hear that clear voice that comes from a well-considered and long-pondered position on someone's site -- something that's impossible to find on lists. As a woman (and not so young at that), poet, and soemone who loves technology, as well as someone who is trying to make a living with it, I have been very happy to read your blog which deals with these issues. So don't stop writing about the things that feed your passions ... like marius said, do your thing and know that it is appreciated. Posted by: maria on May 7, 2003 10:38 PM Talkback (Name link)Oop, now I feel bad. I've only just gotten around to my daily blog reading now. Reading your post here only after processing all the piss & vinegar on the Unlimited list, I'm feeling really quite lame about three things: 1. Posting flippant OT bollocks of now real value that will probably piss off even more people on what should be a really good list. 2. Not getting around to posting my draft response to one of your earlier requests to "hear from the non-techies", and taking the easy shot instead. 3. Being entirely insensitive to the way you must be feeling with all us hairy geeks swarming the list. I can't possibly say I understand how you're feeling, Shelley - that would be literally, physiologically impossible for me. I lack the requisite plumbing ;-) But I feel crummy that I may have missed the real problem and responded (characteristically, for me) with an inappropriate attempt humour. Oh, I don't bloody know... *sigh* Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. /m Posted by: Michael on May 7, 2003 11:00 PM Talkback (Name link)I really want to rehash everything I said the last time we talked about this, even though I realize that probably means I'm still wrong in the same ways. One data point, though: I'm ignored in very much the same way you are, on some of the same lists. I don't know what it means, maybe just that you're a woman and I'm an idiot, but I do know that I'd really like to leave mailing lists behind, and have some way of finding the same sorts of conversations on blogs instead. Posted by: Phil Ringnalda on May 8, 2003 01:51 AM Talkback (Name link)"...I do know that I'd really like to leave mailing lists behind, and have some way of finding the same sorts of conversations on blogs instead..." Phil - looks to me kind of like you've found one right here and now ;-) *waves wand* your wish, dear chap, is granted...sort of. Seriously - with commenting, trackback and a little IM help, I think we can ground many of these discussions in our blogs better than we can in the mailing lists. There's a role for Brent Ashley's piece in this somewhere too: http://www.blogchat.com Could be fun. Posted by: Michael O'Connor Clarke on May 8, 2003 08:00 AM Talkback (Name link)I can't say that I understand what it feels like to be an outsider in the tech field. I am a twenty-two year old male, not really the guy wearing neon pink at a funeral. But look at it this way, how many worker bees/drones are there? How many queens? Exactly. You just keep directing the masses Shelley, because I definitely keep my eye on you to see where things are heading, especially with RDF. Oh, and RSS-Dev is as "fun" as it is because of two people *coughs* Kearney *coughs* I won't say their names *coughs* Winer *coughs*, but lets just say the interesting points kind of get lost in favour of year old stale arguments. Basically, "Keep on truckin'"! Posted by: gord on May 8, 2003 11:39 AM Talkback (Name link)But I'm also disappointed at the women in the group. Why didn't they speak out? Why did I have to speak out, alone? Do they know how hard it is to be the only woman talking in these groups? Where were they when I needed them? Oh, have I been there. They want you to take the heat so they can stay in the shadows. Then, they whisper at you how much they "support" you when everyone is out of earshot so they aren't caught talking to you. It reminds me unaccountably of that scene in "Blazing Saddles" where the grateful townspeople are giving the black sheriff thank-you gifts and asking that he not tell anyone about them. Posted by: Janis on May 8, 2003 12:04 PM Talkback (Name link)Maria, you are very kind, and I hope you do continue coming around and getting involved in the RDF Poetry finder, as you can. I know your input would be valuable. Michael, please don't feel bad -- you were just trying to break the tension a bit. Phil, looks like you weren't ignored, but you were responded to at http://www.quicktopic.com/em/H/mXbfHC2srY3/. Yeah, Gord, perhaps we need to create a list just for them -- tell them to take their problems there. Janis, good questions for which there will never be an answer. Posted by: Shelley on May 8, 2003 01:10 PM Talkback (Name link)Say something interesting, and don't put other people down (like you so often do). It doesn't matter what's between your legs -- what matters is what's between your ears. You missed the high road by hundreds of miles, picking on me, like everyone else. I don't feel sorry for you -- go compete with your ideas and good vibes. Stop trashing other people. You put so much energy into trying to put me down. No damned surprise people aren't interested. That kind of energy doesn't attract, it repels. You either flame or complain. Occasionally you write something beautiful. Go look at the response when you do that. There's your clue. Get out of the funk and create something! Everyone digs that. Over and out. Posted by: Dave Winer on May 8, 2003 05:27 PM Talkback (Name link)Hey Phil, I *always* read your posts carefully. You're a smart guy. Sometimes you say things that make me flinch, but there's always enough new data to make it worthwhile. Just my opinion. Posted by: Dave Winer on May 8, 2003 05:28 PM Talkback (Name link)Shelley: My wife is a network engineer in Arkansas. You don't get more isolated from female peers than that. The interesting thing is that she doesn't really have that much trouble with the Boys' Club. She definitely feels the otherness of her situation, but only the most knuckle-dragging of idiots really cross her. Why? Because she gets mad. Not fuming in the ladies' room and sniffling. She gets snarling pissed off, with only a minimal layer of professionalism to hide it. A consultant tried to ignore her in a meeting once and her glare practically drilled a hole through his skull. She's as sweet as she can be at home, loves fuzzy animals, and so on... but she takes pride in her work and her knowledge of it, and you'd better not fuck with her pride. So if I had any minor words of wisdom based upon her experience, they would be: Embrace that anger and frustration you're feeling, focus it all down to a narrow beam, and aim it at a deserving party. Unburdening yourself through indirect means only feels good in the short term, and never addresses the actual problem. Two cents, what it's worth. Posted by: Roger Benningfield on May 8, 2003 10:27 PM Talkback (Name link)Post a comment
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