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The "worst" band in the world reveals all

(Ricardo Franzin, Rock Brigade #130,May '97)

No Brazilian metal band is as polemic as Sarcófago. Quarrels with Sepultura (Wagner Lamounier's, guitar and vocals, former band), visual changes, a fight with R.D.P. and the use of electronic drums on the latest albums are just few of the controversies which contributed to grant the band the aura of damned. While their latest CD is being released, The Worst, we held in Brigade's own editorial room an open conversation with Wagner and Gerald Minelli (bass, drums programming and keyboards), - the couple who forms the band nowadays - in which all these topics, and many more, were mentioned. Some statements of both were really surprising. So enough talk and let's get straight to what matters.

ROCK BRIGADE - After listening The Worst, it's possible to realize that you did slow down in comparison to Hate [fifth album], even though there are still extremely fast tracks. It sounds like a mix of The Laws [Of Scourge, third album] with Hate.
WAGNER LAMOUNIER - Exactly. You just defined what happened. When we did Hate, we wanted to do something that Sarcófago always proposed to do, but never had the balls to do it, we can even say that due to human limitations. Hate's proposal was to be the most aggressive album of the history, as fast as possible. With a regular drummer we wouldn't get the result we wanted, so we used the resource of progammable drums. But on the other hand, The Laws... is an album that we also like a lot. We thought that Hate came out fine regarding this speed factor, but we wanted to show that heaviness is also a part of Sarcófago.
GERALD MINELLI - We realized that if we could get both things together we'd get a great result. For instance, the guitar parts of The Laws... really pleased us, but the drums didn't, mainly on the fast parts. So we noticed that we could gather on The Worst some parts of Hate and also from all our other albums. If you analize well, The Worst is a retrospective since the I.N.R.I. days.
WAGNER - It's a reaffirmation of Sarcófago's line. With us, either the music is extremely heavy or extremely fast. On The Worst, we tried to make the heavy songs as heavy as possible and the fast songs as fast as possible. We continued the use of electronic programming, since in the days of Hate it had a more experimental role, like: "Let's use it to see how it sounds like." But then, the very resource of programming was limited, you couldn't get so many variations and some parts even ended up sounding a bit annoying. On this new album we tried to show that, with electronic programming, we could sound fast and with technical drums. We managed to do things that we wanted to do in Hate, but it wasn't possible then.

RB - And how will you perform live?
WAGNER - We won't play live again, since the days of Hate we don't. We don't have patience to play live anymore, we never had the intent to live off of the band.

RB - Not even when you played in Europe?
WAGNER - No. In those days, we concealed our private activities with the band. We never had the idea of living off of music, it's always been a hobby for us. That's why we always did what we wanted, we never had to explain anything to anyone.
GERALD - On the days of The Laws... we felt like doing gigs and we did a lot, in Europe, in South America. Then we decided to end this once and for good. We just did a few gigs in Argentina, Chile, Peru, and Brazil after that. We haven't played live for nearly a year. We'll just make a few sparse shows, on special occasions, like the show in homage to Osvaldo [of Sextrash, deceased on March '97], when we'll play with I.N.R.I.'s line up [this show was scheduled for the last April 21^st, in BH, to gather funds for the bill of the hospital where Osvaldo was before his death].

RB - Why did you change your look so radically? That gave margin to a lot of gossip, people even said that you had your hair cut because you got jobs as bank cashiers.
WAGNER - [laughing] Since the second Rock In Rio days, long hair became something vulgar [E.N.: the lyrics of Shave Your Head, from the new album, deals with that]. We respect those who still have it, but nowadays any trendy who listens to Pearl Jeam or Nirvana lets his hair grow to get chicks. When the thought of the guys who let their hair grow started to be like this, we saw that it didn't fit us anymore. Since the beginning Sarcófago tried to be different. Nowadays, for example, nine out of ten new bands that show up is using corpsepaint. When we used it, everybody bashed us, they said that we were ridiculous. When we had our hair cut, everybody criticized. Nowadays there's a number of bands who have their hair cut as well. Even the famous ones.
GERALD - But we don't go around making propaganda of what we do. Who wants to say it, say it. We promote our work mainly on the underground ways, we don't go around saying: "We had our hair cut because of this, this and this". We'll just talk if somebody asks us.

RB - Why the lyrics of Purification Process are not included on the CD? Does it have anything to do with the theme that, as written on the release, could be considered fascist, 'cos it's written there, among other things, 'fuck off the indians', 'fuck off the browns'?
WAGNER - No, there's no 'fuck off the indians' or 'fuck off the browns'. It has more to do with homosexualism and drugs use.

RB - But it's written here, 'fuck off the indians' and 'fuck off the browns'.
WAGNER - Where? [we show him the release] Who wrote this was João [E.N.: owner of Cogumelo, the band's label]. In the case of 'indians', it's more in the sense of the guys who are mixing tribal sounds with heavy music. But 'browns', related to the black people, it has nothing to do, we have nothing against black people. The minorities which we refer to are homosexuals and drug addicts. That must stop. The problem is not people who make shit, it's the people who make shit and and end up dragging others with them. That pisses us off.
GERALD - But we didn't put the lyrics because we didn't want to, it was really severed, censored. Also, other songs of the album kind of deal with that, like The Worst itself.

RB - By the way, why is the album entitled The Worst?
WAGNER - Well, besides being a homage to the people who usually elect Sarcófago as the worst band in Brazil... [webmaster's note: on the annual ROCK BRIGADE reader's poll]

RB - But at the same time that you're the worst, a lot of people vote on you as the best.
WAGNER - But we assume, we want to be the worst [laughs]. But it's a relationship of extremes anyway, either the guy likes or he hates. But, returning, the name also refers to the people who think about commiting suicide, to those who kill themselves slowly with drugs and the likes. People who are in shit think that if they kill themselves everything will get better. For them, we want to say that the worst is yet to come. The message that we wanted to spread is that we must always look at the positive side of things.

RB- But do you think that this message is clear on the album, since everything on it is very depressive?
GERALD - But if you analyze the lyrics well, you'll see that we want to spread is an opposite incentive to all that that we've shown on the inner sleeve.
WAGNER - Analyze well the lyrics of The Worst, Army Of The Damned and Plunged In Blood. They have the same theme, a sequel. One is before the suicide, the other's during and the other is after. Then you can understand better what we wanted to express. The inner sleeve images are strong exactly to shock and show what really can happen.

RB - On this same issue of RB there's an interview with D.R.I. and a kinda old issue surfaced, which is the fight that happened when you were the opening act for them in '92. What really happened?
WAGNER - What really happened was that the guys of Ratos de Porão were jealous 'cos they wanted to open the D.R.I. shows in Brazil, since they liked the band a lot. But Walcir, of Woodstock, who was organizing the show, chose to use Sarcófago. Then the guys [R.D.P.] were pissed, they managed to get backstage and started to make a mess.

RB - Is it true that João Gordo was armed?
WAGNER - He wasn't. If he was, he would shoot.
GERALD - Well, he was armed with a chain, that sort of thing.

RB - He just got backstage...
WAGNER - He was drunk and talking a lot of shit. Then we wanted to know what was going on and the fight started. But they were in a greater number, they were in their city. But also, they [Ratos] didn't return that calm to Belo Horizonte later. The D.R.I. guys got in the middle of the fight 'cos they didn't know what was happening. They saw the fight rolling by their side and got in hitting everybody. One guy of their crew had his arm broken...
GERALD - But that wasn't our fault. It was Gordo's crew, who were hitting with chains. But that is past, we already erased it. And also we have nothing against the D.R.I. guys, but they probably got a wrong impression after what happened. Just imagine, I'll take you to my town and, suddenly, there's a fight rolling, you're being beaten...
WAGNER - And everybody talking and arguing in other tongue, you don't get anything. But who caused all this were the Ratos de Porão guys. What other reason could they have to be there backstage, if they weren't playing or anything and they were mad about it? Walcir himself said that. The guys were pissed.

RB - [to Wagner] What do you think of what's happening to Sepultura?
WAGNER - What? Who? Dunno, I don't know who they are [laughs].

RB - Do you think that the success that happened to them was good for the Brazilian bands?
WAGNER - I think nothing.
GERALD - I think they're going through a crisis, as every band, and they gotta deal with that. It's like a family. If there's a problem in your family, you solve it. Now they must face it.

RB - And how about the thing that they are, as many people say, bashing other Brazilian bands abroad?
GERALD - That's an act of despair from them after going through something they never experienced, that's normal, it happens to everybody. But you gotta take care before start to talk stuff about others, 'cos the contrary might happen, it's the action and reaction law.

RB - But they're throwing shit on the fan and it's flying everywhere.
WAGNER - They always did.
GERALD - But they always did it because they were always protected by the media, specially the Brazilian one. They always were the little darlings of the press, but it's time for the people to see that it isn't exactly like that.
WAGNER - The problem is that they were pretty, cute hair, and now they're all freaks, all fat and rotting [laughs].

RB - Do you think that Sepultura contributed for this image of damned band that Sarcófago always had?
WAGNER - It could be. They were the good guys of metal and we were the 'bad boys'.
GERALD - But, for me and for Wagner, that never influenced anything, it was more for the outsiders. We always though all this was funny and they [Sepultura] should think it's funny for them as well.

RB - [to Wagner] What was the real reason for your departure from Sepultura?
GERALD - What happened was that Wagner left the band, there was this weird atmosphere, but, two years later, nobody else didn't even recall it anymore.

RB - Then, why that message against Sepultura on the inner sleeve of I.N.R.I.?
WAGNER - That's because our drummer those days, Eduardo, broke a bottle of pinga on Andreas' head because he [Andreas] was mocking us. Things got really hot after this, they started to talk a lot of shit. But mainly after this fight, because until then it was only that thing: "Ah, our band is the heaviest", "No, our band is".
GERALD - And the media always protected Sepultura, always saw the positive things that they got. Then of what good would it be we come here and say: "What happened was this, this and this"? It would be useless. So we didn't give a damn, fuck it.

RB - But, somehow, you exploited the success of Sepultura, since Rotting [second album] was sold overseas as the album of a former Sepultura member.
WAGNER - That was a scam of the label, we didn't know anything and, when we did, we were fuckin' pissed. Specially with the U.S. label, who put something on the cover mentioning that. They thought that they would profit more doing that and they did so, but we only were aware when we saw it.
GERALD - We had no access. They were manufactring the albums there and we were here in Brazil.

RB - [to Wagner] How much time did you really spend in the band?
WAGNER - One year. Even before they call it Sepultura, since they had several other names. The first two shows were with me.
GERALD - Actually, the band was Wagner and the two brothers.

RB - [to Wagner] Therefore, how do you, who knew them since those days, face what's going on?
WAGNER - I think it's very normal coming from who started it, 'cos that guy is too false. That's the truth.

RB - What guy?
WAGNER - Max.

RB - Then, you think that the problem is Max?
WAGNER - No, I think nothing, I don't even know what's going on. But, by what I knew of them, I think it's extremely normal one brother betray the other in that family, they don't measure things too much to get what they want. Then, one brother betraying the other there, one betraying the mother, a friend betraying another... If it's to cash in, I bet they're able to do anything.
GERALD - But this is something we don't want to get involved with. Every band goes through this, didn't Ozzy leave Sabbath?
WAGNER - But, in their case [Sepultura], I'm not surprised, because, by what I knew of their personality, I knew that this was extremely easy to happen.
GERALD - And everybody is hurt 'cos it happened with the darling band of Brazil. But I ask you: what does me and Wagner have to do with it? Nothing.

RB - [to Gerald] Come on, he took part of the band...
GERALD - He took part only of the bad things [laughs].

RB - There was even a thanks to Sarcófago on the original sleeve of Bestial Devastation...
GERALD - There was by free and spontaneous pressure, 'cos the label owner those days, who's the same of ours today, must have ordered them to put it. And there's one song there wrote by Wagner. Ask us if they paid him royalties?!? They disguised the song there and that's it.

RB - The song is Antichrist, isn't it?
WAGNER - Yeah, Antichrist, the lyrics are mine. But also I never went after it, I didn't care, they can keep that crap.
GERALD - But a noble attitude of somebody who respects anything would be to say: "Well, OK, these lyrics are yours". Just like we always did with the guys who worked with us.
WAGNER - But that's exactly what I'm telling you. Coming from them, these things are normal. Not with us, 'cos one thing we always respected in this band thing is friendship. We never said: "Ah, we're gonna do this, then let's kick this guy out from the band" or "That guy said I dunno what, then let's kick him out and place somebody else". It was always based on friendship. Sarcófago always did things according to the opinions of the people who were inside the band, never worrying about who's outside. It's even a bit unfair, but we're not worried even with the fans, we never said: "Let's do this because this is what the fans want to listen from Sarcófago". Never. We always did what we felt like.
GERALD - When you do something, you gotta assume. If we did something with electronic drums and reached our goal, it doesn't matter if everybody understood or not. If they like, OK, if they don't, whatever.

RB - [to Wagner] You said that after you left Sepultura, you just sent a fuck off to everything. But then, an interview with Sarcófago came out in other rock mag in which you guys said that you tried a reconciliation. Is that true?
WAGNER - We weren't the ones who gave that interview, it was the guitarist and the drummer from the compilation [Warfare Noise]. An old manager of ours also took part on that interview, and he was friends with the guys [of Sepultura] and still trying to fix things up.
GERALD - Me and Wagner didn't like interviews too much those days, we pushed everything for them. Now that there's only the two of us, there's no other way.

RB - So it's a fuckin' sacrifice for you being here and talk with me?
GERALD - It's a sacrifice in therms.

RB - And the guy still keeps asking about Sepultura [laughs].
GERALD - We do these things every two years. It can't be more than that.
WAGNER - But we always liked it with BRIGADE, we never had anything against it. Once you even placed a pic of ours on the cover! But there are some magazines around here in which we really don't care about showing up.

RB - You said that a long ago you already wore corpsepaint and all that heavy imagery. How do you see all those black metal bands, specially in Europe, who are using these resources nowadays?
WAGNER - I think everybody's getting nuts, they're taking this satanism stuff too seriously, they're crossing the edge and I don't think that's good. Even Sarcófago's proposal never was to be satanist, not even on the beginning. Our proposal was to be against any kind of religion, to be agnostic. So what happens now is that satanism is becoming some kind of religion to those guys. And since we're against any kind of religion... I mean, each person has his own religion, each one believes in his superior force, either good ou evil. But from the moment that you start gathering people around some religious ideology, we're against it.
GERALD - And there is the respect issue. For example, I decide to become a satanist, there's a church over there, I go and set it on fire. I don't think that's right. In the same way that, for example, I'm a satanist, we have our secret Satan headquarters here, the catholics show up and set it on fire... Every kind of protest is valid, but there must be respect.
WAGNER - Every one shall have his freedom of speech and nobody has the right to interfere on others' opinion.

RB - [to Wagner] You used to trade mail with Euronymous [former Mayhem guitarist and one of the leaders of the Norwegian 'Inner Circle', murdered by Varg Vikernes, etc.]. What was up with him?
WAGNER - That happened for some time, about 6 or 7 years ago. Back then their movement was only starting, it had no formed ideology. But I noticed that the guy was kinda crazy. He messed with chemistry and used to say that he wanted to infect somebody who fucked him up, to inject a virus in that guy, that sort of things. I even thought that he was kidding, but then I realized that the guy was really nuts. But the guys over there are some kind of rebels without a cause. They live in Norway, the country with the best life standards in the world, they've got nothing to worry about...
GERALD - But it also involves a lot of crap, like heavy drugs, which pop up in Europe every day.

RB - You don't think that these things are marketing strategies, like a lot of people say.
WAGNER - No, it's madness indeed. But what I think that is unfair about all this Norway deal is that the music of these guys is too bad. The recording quality is too weak. Some of those bands are cool, like Immortal, but Burzum, for example, I think it's a pile of shit. The guitar sound seems to be taped from a radio with a microphone in front of it.
GERALD - But now you're analyzing the technical issue.
WAGNER - Yeah, but those guys stick too much to the looks and forgot about the music. They think that music is making plain noise, with no recording quality at all. Even back on the I.N.R.I. days we tried to do something well recorded: extreme, but well recorded. And I.N.R.I. is from '87 and better recorded then most of those albuns. C'mon, and the guys over there have money!

RB - A magazine here printed some time ago that you were trying to do in Brazil the same things that the 'Inner Circle' did in Norway...
WAGNER - When that came out we read it and laughed, what else could we do? How much shit was already wrote about us around here? The lyrics of Satanic Terrorism tells the story of one of those guys, but it doesn't mean that we were supporting it. We never said: "This is good, it's cool, you gotta do that". We just described a fact.

RB - What about the compilation [Decade Of Decay, released by the end of last year]?
WAGNER - The compilation was a gift for the older fans. We tried to do a nice job on the inner sleeve as well, even though the quality of the pictures didn't come out that good, otherwise the guys would laugh even more. Even though you criticized it, saying that there was even a picture with a naked man on the inner sleeve, the intent was to really make fun of it. We wanted to put some backstage pics, fun stuff like that. There was even a very indiscreet picture of this guy [Gerald] that he went there and took it off himself. We were in Argentina and the door of our bathroom didn't lock. So we were taking pictures of everybody taking a shower. When we opened the door to take a picture of him taking a shower, he was standing on his feet over the toilet taking a dump, just like an owl [laughs]. He wasn't sitting on the vase, he was trying to get his balance over there [more laughs].
GERALD - Of course. Five guys sleeping in a room, everybody drinking beer, everytime somebody would go there and piss all over the vase, why would I sit my ass over there? But back again, the compilation stuff was a review of our older stuff, of the old demos that not even we have in on cassete, only on tape. We tried to improve it, even though a lot of things couldn't be improved anyway, for the people who wanted to know it. It's a document, I think it's worthy to present it.