I've read the post, but I may have misread, has anyone mentioned the potential of a Dragon Break at Red Mountain?

It is possible that the use of the profane tools on the heart of Lorkhan may have created a Dragon Break, or similar time disorder. If this was the case, then several realities could exist similtaneously, meaning that Vehk could be both guilty and innocent, murderer and loyal friend.

This is what may have happend at Red Mountain:

The tools are applied to the heart, the dragon breaks, Vivec kills Nerevar, Vivec doesn't kill Nerevar, Almsivi use the tools, the timeline is reunited with each event leading to a similar result, but occuring differently.

For instance, in each case Nerevar dies, this is the result. In each case the tools are initially used, this is the cause. However, in one reality Nerevar is murdered, this is one of the events.

As with all good theories, this is falsifiable.

Wouldn't the problem with a Dragon Break be precisely that no theory about the events in question can be definitively proven or disproven?

Otherwise, an interesting idea, and compatible with some of the things Vivec says about the contrast between his mortal and immortal beings.

I've finally finished reading the trial of Vivec and the epilogue. Damn. Good stuff, and interesting. Vivec admits his guilt, by the way. Mostly.

There was a particularly interesting set of exchanges in the epilogue, between Allerleirauh and another person (whose name isn't indicated) on Vivec, CHIM, free will, and disobedience.

This specific notion has been posed many times.

IMO, falsely.

As I understood it, in the trial of Vivec, Vivec claimed that when he, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil were transformed from mortals to gods, the universe was transformed so that they had always been gods and not mortals. That would be something like a Dragon Break.

It's also possible that Vivec was making an elaborate metaphor, that was effectively, a lie. After all, *every* event changes the universe.

Sorry, I worded it a bit ambiguously... Nerevar was Azura's champion so Azura must have been well aware of whether or not Vivec murdered Nerevar. It's a bit strange that she doesn't bring the subject up with the Nerevarine.

"Vivec and Mephala" is an interesting book, it suggests that the Dunmer accept that Vivec may have killed Nerevar, and just put it down to his dark side.

The Daedra rules over the Dunmer and the Devs rules over the Daedra. If the Devs wants to keep it a secret so we can go destroy our brains thinking about it, Azura would keep her mouth shut about it. LOL

'The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies. Look on me as the exiled garden. All else is uncut weed.'

So by that standard, everything Vivec said in his sermons is untrue. He was born a god, and he did commit a crime! Vivec is such a liar!

I believe I touched on this in detail some time ago..... a long time ago....... Long enough to have been long since archived.

A break a Red Mountain would explain a lot. In some cases of the accounts at Red Mountain it would be the only explanation. If a Mod would care to dig it up please post it or a link, perhaps it is time to look into this again from a freash perspective.

Don't forget though, that this is Almalexia now. Before when she was more involved with her people, and earned her title, "Lady of Mercy" she seems to have been more powerful. Old Mournhold was destroyed by Mehrunes Dagon. Sotha Sil and Almalexia defeated Mehrunes Dagon and drove him back to Oblivion. That's what that statue in the Plaza Brindisi Dorom commemorates... [and it seems that the statue was made with that mask she wears in the Clockwork City]. No matter when though, Almalexia comes across as someone who could be ruthless and manipulative enough to resort to murder to gain the power of the Heart. Vivec at least admits he regrets breaking his oath made with Nerevar. Almalexia never does show any regret or remorse.

I doubt Vivec or Sotha would kill nerevar, however since Alma became Vivecs concubine after a while she might have just done it.

1.Nerevar couldn't die at Red Mountain or he could't have made the oath to Azura about not becoming a god.
2. It is classic for a great hero's wife to be evil or wacko or something.
3. These three people are the only ones strong enough to touch Nerevar exept maybe for the daedra, and I doubt they woyld kill him because of the serouis dent it would make in the number of thier followers.

He could have taken an oath before the battle.

They found the tools during the battle, so the oath must have been afterwards, once they were in Dunmer hands. Nerevar seemd to be in decent health at this point, he was the one who killed Dagoth Ur after all.

She did? I don't think so?

If he was in fair health, then why was his life so abrubtly halted -- by death? Ladies and Gentleman of the Jury, I conceed that the Three did indeed murder Lord Indoril Nerevar.

They're the main suspects definitely, but the accounts are all pretty sketchy. The ashland story about the poisoned ritual is probably fiction as it has been handed down by generations of bitter ashlanders. There's no indication of how long after the battle Nerevar's death was.

I think, given what Vivec says in the 36 Sermons, and given what was said in the roleplaying event, the "Trial of Vivec," it's pretty clear that Vivec murdered Nerevar. I don't think it's so clear what role the other two-thirds of the Tribunal played in Nerevar's death, or how Nerevar died, exactly, but given the intimacy of the three, I believe all three conspired to do it.

Yeah, I only recently read through the trial of Vivec, it's pretty interesting.

My belief is that the Tribunal couldn't agree with Nerevar's decision not to use the tools, as the Dwemer were still a potential threat and they wanted to do more to shape Morrowind's future. Once Sotha Sil was confident that he knew how to avoid Kagrenac's mistake they decided to become gods, even if it meant killing Nerevar so he couldn't spoil their plans. It would have been a mutual decision, but Vivec was the most suitable to commit the crime, being a rogue and a warrior.

I guess they decided the ends justified the means, and the fact that they sacrificed their divinity in the end shows that they were not corrupted anywhere near as much as Dagoth Ur was. Nerevar also seems to have lost it a bit towards the end, he seems very indecisive after the battle.

Sacrifice a hero to become a god. Hero comes back and whoops you baaad.

It's very odd that Nerevar suddenly doubted his own judgement like that, isn't it?

It's true that Vivec concludes that it's time to give up his stolen divinity, and I believe that he tries to take responsibility for his actions. (There's a profound honesty to Vivec, even as he's a liar and a thief.) But, from what he tells the Nerevarine, he hadn't actually communicated with Almalexia or Sotha Sil in a very long time. Apparently, this decision was made by Vivec alone.

We can only guess what Sotha Sil would have thought about it, since he was in complete reclusion, and died silently -- but from his passive acceptance of death, I'm inclined to think he was willing to let his divinity go.

Almalexia is quite another story. She did not want to give up being a god, and she had killed Sotha Sil, and was planning to kill the Nerevarine and Vivec, in an effort to reclaim it.

Actually, Vivec and Almalexia do communicate with each other. Because Sotha Sil is the only one who shut himself off. Almalexia rants about this extensively in the MQ for Trib.

And jsut because Vivec felt guilty for stealing and killing his friend, that doesn't make it alright.

Who claimed it makes it all right? I'm just saying, Vivec accepts responsibility for his actions.

YOu make it seem that it justifies everything he did. And he only claims it to one person. Not everyone.

I'd always assumed that the whole Tribunal made the decision to sever the enchantments on the Heart together, even if Vivec formed the battle plans.

I don't think Vivec ever felt guilty about 'stealing' a link to the Heart, and don't see why he should. He regreted breaking his oath, and the murder, although he clearly wasn't willing to own up to the Nerevarine. But he used the power for the benefit of his people, and it would have been a disaster if Dagoth Ur had woken up and the Tribunal wasn't around to oppose him.

That wasn't my intention. Personally, I don't think it justifies everything he did: I think it mitigates his guilt. I find Vivec ambiguous.

Also, in the Hogarithum trial, he actually acknowledged that he'd killed Nerevar to a crowd of scholars from all over Tamriel. That's not everyone, but it doesn't sound like he's planning to keep it a secret anymore, either.

But does he come out to all his followers and say "Hey everyone! I've been lying to you for 3500 years!!" I don't care what it would do to faith, or anything else. He lied to millions and millions of people in his lifetime and there is no way, other than confessing it to the whole of Tamriel, that he can make things right.

That's an impossible feat to do. At least for Vivec that is.

Vivec has been alive for 3500-4000 years. it is possible for him to have lied to many many many people. The least he could do is announce himself as a liar and a thief. It is the LEAST he could do.

He Has. Vivec (Vehk) wears the Tittle's Liar and Thief as marks of high honor. He may even be considering adding Murderer to his list.

Calling him a Liar, Thief and Murderer in the same breath could only inflate his ego. Perhaps even a blush of pride could be solicited if the statement was sincere enough.

The Three would be incredibly embarassed if they were called liars, theives, or murderers. Why do you think they tried to cover it up iin the first place.

Woops

The 'Three' are now minus two members.... Not to mention that the 'gig' is up so there is no longer any reason to keep the false pretenses. Vehk is Proud of being the thief and 'stealing' his godhood, he freely admits he would do it again and again..... I would be surprised if he isn't trying to regain his 'stolen booty' .... very surprised..... by ANY means.

Read "Vivec and Mephala", the Dunmer are well aware of Vivec's dark side. His two-tone skin hints at this too. They love him because he has lead and protected them for so long, and unlike other gods takes an active interest in their well-being.

Vehk would say that things ARE right, just as they are now.

It's not as simple as saying, "He lied to us!" Vivec told many different versions of the same story, each intended for a different audience. To those with ears to hear, he never lied. And his truth may be even crueler than his lies - or it may not be.

When your parents told you Santa brought you presents, did they lie? Did you learn the truth when you were a little older and better able to understand? There are layers and layers here. To see only the first layer is a sign of shallow understanding.

This may just be supposition on my part but they never said anything about a body...
This is a radical theory but....maybe Nerevar died of old age, They never said his actual age I mean, couldn't it be possible he was just a really old dunmer when this all happened?

I've never seen any good evidence that Nerevar was actually murdered, and there's no timeframe of when he died and when the Tribunal linked themselves to the Heart. But, going on the trial of Vivec thread, it looks like he was murdered.

Where is the trial of vivec thread?

Personnally I have more faith in Nerevar for someone like Vivec to murder him, which is why I brought the point up.

The Trial of Vivec

It's pretty obvious that Nerevar did not die of old age; it's a historical fact, not disputed by any, that the Tribunal took power after his death, shortly after the Battle of Red Mountain.

Geez, gotta love historical revisionists!

Shallow understanding? Excuse me but I do see the reprecussions of his decision. It could very well mean death, destruction and mass chaos. However it is neccessary. People living millions of years after Vivec died of old age would be looking to Vivec for help and for him to protect them. He wouldn't. So... What's worse, believing in something that isn't there or being hurt for a while?

The oath was made after the Red Mountain battle so he was alive then...Does anyone know if sotha found the secret to the tools before or afer Nerevar's death?

No they wouldn't, the Dunmer are bound to realize the Tribunal is gone sooner or later. Millions of years is really pushing it (assuming the wheel holds together that long).

I'd say that they found them all together, and then killed Nerevar, then Sotha found HOW to use the tools.

And it's called an exaggeration. Not meant to be taken literally. I doubt that the would would hold together because if the impending fall of the Empire and such.

Vivec says that the Temple is going to return to the old ways, and almsivi will eventually just be saints alongside others like Veloth and Nerevar. He tells his priests that he is leaving the physical world.

He may be telling them that, but he's still lying to them They think that he's going on to "a better place" where he could "look over" them. In all reality he dies and goes where all mortals go.

If sotha hadn't found the secret it would have been pointless to kill nerevar because the last use proved devistating. If Nerevar died before the secrets of the tools were found tehn There is a good chance none of the tribunal killed him. Nerevar was also stronger than any single tribunal member, so it would take all of them to kill him, and I don't know about you but I would notice a fight like that a mile away, which means there would be witnesses, and even if they killed all of the witnesses people would begin to wonder what happened to all of these people. I believe that Nerevar's death might have had Daedric Intervention.

Vehk isn't dead

Will he die eventually? Yes, but he has a good hundred years at least to go.

Every religion is full of lies like that, people embellish stories and add details to reiniforce the status of their religion and gods. Vivec is choosing to give the Temple a smooth transistion to the new form of worship instead of shattering everyone's faith and risking the stability of the Temple.

Edit: Nerevar wasn't necessarily stronger than the Tribunal. He was also wounded from his battle with Dumac, and may not have expected his friends to turn on him. He would have been assassinated rather than fighting another battle...

The oath was taken long after the battle and it was with Ur not Dumac. What kind of assassin would kill he greatest dunmer hero of all time? What assassin could? Remember nobody said the tribunal had to kill him, just that he died. The tribunal nor the dissident priests, nor the daedra say the tribunal killed them. The only reason the ashlanders say it is because they hate the tribunal for becoming gods. Azura says the tribunal betrayed their oath to nerevar not that they killed him. This is why I stand beside my daedric intervention theory.

"Greatest dunmer hero of all time?" Who are we talkin' about here?

NEREVAR!!!!!!!!
He's just made the velothie people whole, made the first council, defeated the dwarves more or less, pushed back the nords, made the no-god oath to Azura, became the guy your the incarnate of, Imean it's no big deal really.....