INTERVIEW OF: SOURCE 1, USAF, Ret.
BY: Roger Pinson
DATE: August 17, 2000
Pinson: I know that you were the commander of the ______. Was
there another ______ commander of another squadron?
SOURCE 1: No.
Pinson: I was just wondering if, in addition to you,
because I know there are so many different organizations on base, the
wing, the group, you name it. I thought maybe there might be another….
SOURCE 1: No. I'm trying to think. There was a reserve
outfit there.
Pinson: Was there? Would they have their own commander?
SOURCE 1: Yes. But I don't remember what his name was.
Also, Roger, there was a National Guard outfit there. At McGuire. Air
National Guard.
Pinson: And there would constantly be someone there?
SOURCE 1: With the National Guard guys?
Pinson: Right.
SOURCE 1: Yeah. Now the reserve guys were only there
on the weekends. But the National Guard had their whole contingent, at
their end of the base. I had nothing to do with…..their resources.
Pinson: Do you remember the lay out of the base. Gate
5 was next to Texas Ave, I think.
SOURCE 1: OK, that would have been right next to the
Air National Guard complex. Adjacent to Ft. Dix.
Pinson: Do you remember an Airman by the name of Jim
Morse?
SOURCE 1: Morse. No.
Pinson: How about a 1st lieutenant of C flight. I don't
know his name, but his initials were S.W?
SOURCE 1: I didn't have any lieutenants in charge of
flights.
Pinson: OK. Who would have been in charge of flights?
SOURCE 1: I had NCO's. I had shift supervisors, but they
were not connected to any flights.
Pinson: And they were the officers?
SOURCE 1: On duty at the time. As far as any shift commanders,
I can't recall anybody who had the initials S.W.
Pinson: If there was an incident like the one I described,
who would report to you?
SOURCE 1: My guys, the ______. Yes, the Air National
Guard had no obligation to me. They were responsible to their headquarters
in Atlanta.
Pinson: The _______ that you commanded, that was divided
into ______, is that right?
SOURCE 1: Yes, but they both came under me.
Pinson: Did you report to anyone?
SOURCE 1: I reported to the base commander, Colonel Landon.
Pinson: Do you remember the AF Form 1569? It was called
the incident/complaint form. Are you familiar with those?
SOURCE 1: Yes.
Pinson: Do you know why your name would be on one?
SOURCE 1: No. Do you have one in front of you?
Pinson: Yes. In fact this is the only thing we're going
on. Everything else that we have, as far as I'm concerned is hearsay.
You're listed on the form as an investigator for the incident.
SOURCE 1: No, I'd never be listed as the investigator.
NOTE: I read the narrative of the incident from the 1569
to SOURCE 1 at this point.
SOURCE 1: Roger, that’s no way.
Pinson: Do you think you'd know about something like
that?
SOURCE 1: Oh, yeah.
Pinson: Under category 11, which is evaluation, it says
unfounded.
SOURCE 1: Yeah, OK, now wait a minute now. If that's
the case I'm a little puzzled because we never evaluated incidents. We
only recorded the facts and then sent them on to the commander. He would
reply on the back where it should say, "Action Taken."
SOURCE 1: There was a time that I was down at the base.
Then there was a requirement for a …… advisor at 21st Air Force. I moved
from the unit to 21st Air Force. And it was about in that time frame.
I was only down at the unit for about 2 1/2 years.
Pinson: At the ______?
SOURCE 1: Yes.
Pinson: When you moved up to the 21st Air Force, what
was your position then?
SOURCE 1: ______ Advisor. I was no longer the unit commander.
Pinson: Did you ever associate with ______?
SOURCE 1: Yeah. I worked for him personally. I was the
advisor to him.
Pinson: Oh, on ______ matters?
SOURCE 1: Yeah. OK, looking at my records, in January
of '78, I was still the unit commander.
Pinson: All of January?
SOURCE 1: Yes. Yeah, Landon was the base commander.
NOTE: Concerning the incident:
Pinson: I find it hard to believe that if something like
this had happened that the ______ wouldn't know about it.
SOURCE 1: Well, everybody up and down the channel would
know about that because it would have been a discharge of a firearm, and
the possible death of somebody.
SOURCE 1: After you called yesterday, I got to thinking
about it and my wife said, "Look, you got a call about this long ago."
Pinson: Oh, you did?
SOURCE 1: Yes.
Pinson: Do you know who it was?
SOURCE 1: No, Roger, it was so long ago. I haven't got
the slightest idea.
Pinson: It could have been Leonard Stringfield. He died
several years ago. Or it could have been George Filer. He kind of picked
up where Stringfield left off. Or it could have been another retired Air
Force officer, Jerry Rowles.
SOURCE 1: I'll tell you what. Now that you're going through
names, it might have been Filer that called.
RE-INTERVIEW OF: SOURCE 1, USAF, Ret.
BY: Roger Pinson
DATE: August 28, 2000
Preface
When I spoke to SOURCE 1 on 8-17-00, I agreed to send him a
copy of the DD Form 1569 in order for him to study the document. This
interview is a discussion of his findings.
SOURCE 1: I appreciate that article too that you sent
me.
NOTE: Along with the 1569, I sent him our article published
in the Global Reliance.
SOURCE 1: Lets start at the top. Now you see that block
where it says "Information." That’s X'd. It goes "Thru" -"To." OK, that
block would have been filled in.
Pinson: OK.
SOURCE 1: Then you look at the next block and it's empty.
I think that block would have been who was involved. Then we go down,
the third block is empty, the fourth block is empty. Then we get into
the fifth block where it says "UFO/Sighting/Incident, Inactive Runway
#5," at 3 o'clock in the morning on the 18th of January. Well I can assure
you I did not get woke up at 3 o'clock in the morning on the 18th of January.
Pinson: Right. And something like this, you’re saying
you would have.
SOURCE 1: Right. Then it says "Received By: New Jersey
State Police, Wrightstown, New Jersey. In person and by telephone." That
would be impossible. The block that would be in there would be who received
it in the Air Force.
Pinson: Oh. So right here, "Received by" is…
SOURCE 1: In my case would be my desk sergeant.
Pinson: He would put his name there.
SOURCE 1: Yeah. Or if it were me, and I were reporting
it to the desk sergeant, it would be my name in there. OK, now we get
into the details. Concerning the narrative on the 1569, it would have
been more specific. It says, "See further 1569's for more information."
There would be no reference to any more 1569's.
Pinson: So one 1569 per incident, then.
SOURCE 1: Oh, yeah. And that's why we got that continuation.
Now I'm talking to you as one, who in my time knew very well how things
were processed. Going down the form we come to my name. What puzzles me
in the symbol, "CO."
Pinson: That’s an army term isn't it.
SOURCE 1: Yes.
Pinson: Thats what I was thinking. What would the Air
Force say?
SOURCE 1: Cmdr.
Pinson: That's right. You're absolutely right.
SOURCE 1: Now, remember we go back to the "unfounded?"
We get to the evidence block. It says, "One body of unknown origin released
to the care of OSI District Commander and Special Recovery team from Wright-Pat
AFB." Now lets be realistic about this. That special team, if there was
one that existed at Wright-Pat would not have gotten there immediately.
Therefore even if I was preparing this on the 18th of January, and I referred
this to the clinic people there would have had to have been something
in the further information, that whatever time the recovery team got there…we
would have never gotten into that. You been with the OSI and the Air Cops,
right?
Pinson: Yes.
SOURCE 1: Now once you referred something to the OSI
that was the end of it right?
Pinson: Pretty much.
SOURCE 1: Uh oh, I found another one. The OSI District
Commander would not have gotten involved.
Pinson: No, he wouldn't have. They would have been reporting
to him later.
SOURCE 1: Yes.
Pinson: That bottom corner, the 1169/70…
SOURCE 1: Those are statements. You should be familiar
with those, I think the OSI used them.
Pinson: I don't remember the name of the forms.
SOURCE 1: I think the 69 was the subject statement, and
the 70 was the witness statement. The Security Police and OSI used them.
They were Air Force forms. Now, the distribution. The distribution was
Landon, who was the base commander at the time. Distribution would never
have been direct to Brigadier General Brown. And surely we never sent
copies of the 1569 to the OSI, because the OSI started their own file
with the OSI form 1. We never had to send them copies. Now where you look
at "For the Commander," if this were a form that was originated, that
block would have been filled in by my admin section. The NCOIC of Reports
and Analysis would have signed it. In other words when these forms were
originated by the desk sergeant they typed them up, but they left, "Thru,
To, From," all that at the top blank. Then the guy from Report and Analysis
and his section would complete the incident number or complaint number
because they maintained the log, and the investigative report number would
be put in by Report and Analysis. And this is one of the things I'm looking
at. It looks to me like everything was done on the same typewriter.
Pinson: And they wouldn't have been.
SOURCE 1: And they wouldn't have been. And you get down
there on the second page where it says, "Narrative continued," where it
says "investigation pending," that would have been "investigation referred
to the OSI." Once we got the OSI involved we back out. They would then
forward their own report to the base commander.
NOTE: Speaking of Morse:
SOURCE 1: If he was a member of the ______ Squadron he
would have had access to blank forms.
Pinson: Exactly. That's what I mean. He could have got
a blank form and filled it in himself. If he was a desk sergeant or one
of the admin guys he would know how to fill this form out. But if he was
just some security policeman that decided he wanted to perpetuate a hoax
and he was going to use this form to do it he would have the right form….
SOURCE 1: He wouldn't have the right technique.
Pinson: Exactly.
SOURCE 1: That’s another interesting thing because when
it says agencies notified it doesn't say anything about the 438th command
post being notified. The control tower would not go directly to 21st Air
Force. They would go to the 438th command post. The 438th would report
it to the wing commander, who would simultaneously upgrade it to 21st
Air Force.
SOURCE 1: After I got this I was thinking. There were
two detachment commanders there.
Pinson: OSI?
SOURCE 1: Yes. One was ______ I don't know where ______
went after he left McGuire. And _____ When he left I know he went to work
for ______. Since you're a member, that much you might be able to find
out.
Pinson: Was one a commander and the other a deputy commander?
SOURCE 1: No there were two detachment commanders there
while I was there. ______ was the first one and then ______ came in after
him.
SOURCE 1: ______ went from being the Chief of the Security
Police Air Force, to the 21st Air Force commander. ______ was the Director
of the Security Police Air Force wide.
