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What is Transhumanist Socialism? (Diaries)

By greenrd
Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 01:48:17 PM EST

greenrd's Diary

In the essay below I will attempt to outline, in a very rough and unpolished form, my conception of a new political philosophy: transhumanist socialism.

This philosophy can be distinguished from all other presently-existing forms of socialism in two key respects:

  1. While it concurs with the communists that advanced industrial capitalism is creating the conditions which are ripe for its own destruction, it asserts that advanced molecular nanotechnology will be a giant step forward in creating conditions ripe for socialism to take root.
  2. It argues for a critical appraisal - not a dismissal - of the potential for "transhumanist" science and technologies to enhance the human condition - and in particular to enhance levels of compassion, solidarity and social cohesion.


The Long-Term Socioeconomic Effects of Advanced Molecular Nanotechnology

While it is difficult to predict the long-term effects of MNT (molecular nanotechnology) this early in the game, three plausible key considerations can still be identified at this early stage:

  1. Just as today, any common general-purpose computer can in principle be used to create a destructive computer virus or worm, in the future, general-purpose nanotech assemblers will be capable in principle of creating highly destructive nanoweapons. The possibility of a mentally-disturbed individual using an assembler to create a weapon and killing large numbers of people will necessitate very high physical and information security requirements for general-purpose assemblers. They will not be, and should not be, freely available to members of the general public (for the same reasons that nuclear weapons should not be freely available). However, this should not prevent sufficiently-secured "pre-programmed" assemblers, which would only manufacture a finite range of "relatively safe" artifacts, from being made available to the general public and to organisations and businesses. The programming of these special-purpose devices will also have to be very highly regulated and secured, at some level, for the very same reasons.
  2. Worldwide voluntary relinquishment of nanotechnology, at any level, is not a realistic possibility in our present capitalist-oriented world system. The military (and industrial) competitive advantages will simply be too great to ignore.
  3. Just as today the large US music corporations (represented by the RIAA) perceive (perhaps correctly) Internet file-sharing as a threat to their business model, in the future all kinds of large suppliers of physical goods (including perhaps food, drinks, drugs, fossil fuels, electronic devices, etc.) will see in MNT a threat to theirs.
MNT could both massively reduce energy requirements for the meeting of basic human needs, and massively increase decentralised and/or renewable energy production, by making extremely cheap solar panels available in large volumes.

Ironically, the established fossil fuel industries may be torn between supporting MNT to reduce their operating costs, and shooting themselves in the foot by supporting the development of a technology which will slash demand for their own products! Their best bet for survival might turn out to be giving in to progress and reinventing themselves and what they do - and thus moving away from fossil fuels as a source of revenue. This can only be good news in terms of reducing C02 emmissions, and emissions of other pollutants generated from burning fossil fuels.

On the more speculative end, MNT assemblers could even one day be used to mass-produce food and drink - not by growing plants or raising animals, but simply by assembling the end-product molecule by molecule, with a far more efficient "production process". In effect, it would be mass-replication of original food items, which would be specially selected for tastiness. This would have a number of fantastic potential benefits:

  • Given that this type of nanotech food would be far cheaper than the old-fashioned, "slow-grow" stuff, and yet still taste just the same as the original specimen, demand for slow-grow food would decline. This would save untold numbers of animals from the barbaric cruelty of factory farming and modern production-line slaughterhouses, and it would make the moral arguments for a "cruelty-minimised lifestyle" (a spot presently occupied by veganism) even harder to cogently rebut. One could no longer even reply "But real meat tastes better than 'no-cruelty' meat" - since they could be made to taste just the same!
  • By the same token, the environment (and thus human health) would benefit, due to a long-term reduction in meat-based agriculture which causes such havoc in terms of water pollution, deforestation and global warming (to name just three effects).
  • Initial food specimens could be selected and engineered to minimise health risks, improving life expectancies by reducing the risks inherent in a meat-based diet.
  • New food types could be created and devised to improve human health by taking a "prevention comes first, cure second" approach.
  • Finally - and in one sense most significantly for the development of socialism - MNT-based, decentralised production of basic human needs such as food and drink holds out the potential for the abolition of wage-slavery, and the freeing of the people from the dual tyranny of multinational corporations and their client states! Clearly, the multinationals will bitterly oppose this outcome - indeed the foregoing is a considerable understatement - but their hands will be tied to some extent by the fact that MNT will be so essential to remaining competitive by cutting production costs.
On the labor side of the equation, MNT could also lead to an enormous loss of jobs worldwide. However, as with all unemployment, this is not a necessary eventuality, but rather a product of a brutal system which organises production around profit rather than human need.

(Note, however, that these predictions are based on the assumption that MNT lives up to the promises of its most optimistic scientific proponents, such as K. Eric Drexler.)

Wage-Slavery and the Socialist Alternative

The problem of work, and of wage-slavery in particular, must be seen as an absolutely central challenge of our time, both because of the inherent wickedness of wage-slavery and because of the evil capitalism system it props up. Millions of people around the world today work for a living, not at a job (or jobs) which they love and enjoy and gives them value in life, but in a job (or jobs) which bores them or stresses them out or eats them up and spits them out - simply because they have to - or feel they have to. A few people are lucky enough to have high job satisfaction, but many are not. More than this, though: contemporary capitalism condemns millions of people - who, even though they may be not enormously discontented with their jobs, are prevented from exploring their full potential as a human being - to a life lacking in freedom, opportunity, and social inclusion.

Another world is possible. Another world is necessary!

A world in which work is shared between one person and another, and between person and machine, such that no person is stuck with doing all unpleasant work, all the time. That which no-one wants to do should be automated, as far as it is feasible and safe to do so. That work which remains which is unpleasant, or unfulfilling, or unregarded, should be given to those who honestly and freely volunteer to do it full-time, and/or shared out between people as far as is sensible, in order that everyone may have time to fairly participate in work/leisure which is pleasant, fulfilling, or well-regarded.

In a socialist society such as this, the society would ensure that no person's basic material needs went unmet - food, drink, housing, heating would be provided for free where necessary. Rates of pay would be collectively set, according to, primarily, the approximate social value of the work, and secondarily, the approximate amount of effort put in. (This would be hard to gauge in some cases, but for example, present-day schoolteachers would almost all be given a high rate of pay due to both factors).

Corporations would have their material assets un-confiscated - i.e. returned to public ownership. There would be legal caps on both personal wealth and income to prevent dangerous inequalities of wealth (and therefore power) re-emerging. It would be illegal to hoard means of production to the detriment of society, or to hoard basic needs like food when others were in dire need of it.

This balance between pay differentials to provide incentives (in some sectors, such as maybe teaching, pay differentials would not usually be used between the same type of workers, but only between them and other types of workers) and democratic controls on wealth and power, satisfies the core values of socialism (loosely-defined) without leading to stagnation. Both socialists and their opponents must recognise that both extrinsic rewards (e.g. money) and intrinsic rewards (e.g. job satisfaction) have their place in motivating people, and neither one should be ignored to the detriment of the other.

MNT as a Facilitator of the Socialist Revolution

There will be a Nanotechnology Revolution matching or exceeding the scale and impact of the Industrial Revolution. But MNT could also bring the world tantalisingly closer to a political revolution - a socialist revolution. This is because, as mentioned above, MNT offers the possibility of ultra-cheap, convenient, and decentralised production and replication of many types of goods. Once we have this, we won't need the corporate multinationals any more. We won't need to be wage-slaves. And with large corporations fought back and withering away, the stage will be set for the fight to take back democracy and return it to the people.

Intellectual property would still be an obstacle to decentralisation and democratisation, and would become an increasingly important weapon in the multinational's arsenal. But in the nanotech future - even more so than now in the time of Napster and the like - the public should start to see the speciousness of intellectual property:

  • There should be no "intellectual property" (whether copyrights, patents or trademarks) taken out on "blueprints" of living things - whether we are talking about DNA or about digital representations of the physical structure of a thing for the purposes of replicating it via nanotechnology.
  • "Intellectual property" and other anti-competitive laws should not be used - as it has already been used with "anti-HIV" drugs - to deny basic needs - food, healthcare, shelter etc. - to people in need. In particular, neither IP nor new anti-competitive measures should be used to deny non-profits the opportunity to produce "open source blueprints" for MNT assemblers, which is what otherwise would happen.
Moreoever, nanotechnology offers us an even more mind-blowing and revolutionary vision. If a large number of manufactured goods become almost "too cheap to charge for", two things will happen (at least in a quasi-capitalist world such as ours). (1) Massive economic dislocation. (2) To a quite fine level of approximation, only services and real estate - and a few physical exceptions like perhaps uranium - will end up having any "inherent cost" (that is, with the costs of "intellectual property royalties" and other needless corporate baggage stripped out).

(2) implies that wealth will become valuable only in virtue of its inherent value to its possessor (if any), and its exchange value in terms of exchanging it for services (and land). There will be no longer much point in exploiting poor countries by forcing them to grow cash crops to pay off huge debts.

There will no longer be much point, in fact, in monopolising the ownership of almost any physical goods. They'll be so cheap to produce that scarcity will become a non-issue! Capitalists could still try to hoard massive quantities of wealth to obtain more and better services (including custom-designed products), but massive quantities of wealth simply wouldn't be needed where mass-produced goods were concerned.

The programming of highly-general nanotech assemblers would still have to be tightly controlled to prevent terrorism and mass murder, but this in itself does not necessitate or even motivate the retention of the present-day quasi-capitalist system. It does, however, probably necessitate the retention of some form of State - but a truly democratic State that serves the people would not be a bad thing.

Democracy, Pluralism and "Counter-Revolutionary Forces"

True socialism has pervasive democracy at its core - which means democracy not only in a highly-devolved government, but also in workplaces and educational institutions, for example. That is why even Cuba, despite its many good points, is not truly socialist, because of course it is run by a dictatorship. Still less so was the Soviet Union, or Maoist China, or any of the other undemocratic regimes (such as Saddam Hussein's brutal regime) that have called themselves "socialist" at one time or another.

However, a fully-democratic socialist society opens up the possibility of the people voting against socialism and for a reactionary regime. If this happens, the will of the majority must be honored, and those who still wanted socialism would have to either begin advocating again for a return to socialism, or seccede as a separate socialist state if a certain region wanted to remain socialist, or move to a separate socialist state elsewhere, if any. The possibility of socialism leading to its own demise cannot be ruled out by dismissal or by fiat, but it can be thought highly unlikely given the way in which socialism democratises wealth and opportunity. A full-blown commitment to democracy cannot have any exceptions where we arbitrarily decide that "we know better than the majority of the people and therefore we take precedence" - or rather, we can believe that we know better, but we cannot unilaterally impose this belief on the majority. That way lies tyranny and repression - and other less blunt anti-social political tendencies.

Transhumanism and Selecting Against Sociopathy

Transhumanism asserts that we should not shy from examining all and any technological advances for their potential to enhance the human condition. From a socialist perspective, however, one of the sets of attributes of the human condition is often given less attention than it deserves. Many people talk (approvingly or disapprovingly) of the possibility of "designing babies" to be more beautiful or assertive or stronger or less prone to illness - all fairly individualistic concerns. But fewer people talk about selecting for kindness, or empathy, or compassion, or social conscience - or the contrapositive, selecting against the cruel, the heartless and the downright psychopathic.

There is some tentative evidence which suggests that extreme, hard-core psychopaths may be born, not made. They frequently show cruel and disturbing antisocial tendencies as children, often in stark contrast to the personalities of their siblings (if any) and parents. Psychopaths appear to be literally incapable of empathising with others or having any genuine form of conscience, no matter what kind of therapy or even punishment is tried (however, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). It is my view that, if it is true that psychopathy is highly genetic, and if the potential for psychopathy can ever be measured scientifically in embryos, high-grade psychopathy should be viewed as a severe mental illness and should be screened for in all embryos - just as severe congenital defects are screened for already.

However, the other concerns - at least some of them - may be quite high-level. The DNA level may not be the most important or even anywhere near the most important level at which "selection" for empathetic and related traits should operate. Education and socialisation, for example, may be more important. The selection and transmission of memes - ideas, attitudes and beliefs - may be more important than genes.

Also, in lesser cases of antisocial behavior, improved knowledge about the effects of nutrition and drugs (which are overlapping fields to some extent - chocolate has psychoactive effects) could be useful to regulate aggression and reduce selfishness. Vitamins, originally thought to be simply building blocks for good physical health, have been recently found to have a positive effect on young ex-criminals, by reducing reoffending rates. If mere vitamins can have this effect, then how much more could we learn from targeted neuro-drugs, gene therapy and - in the further future - nanotech-aided mapping, augmenting and even redesigning of the human brain!

I realise this essay will be highly controversial, perhaps evoking echoes of Brave New World at the end - but I am bound to state that this is most definitely not a troll.

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Poll
Transhumanist Socialism?
o Yay! 27%
o Nay! 36%
o Unsure 9%
o It'll never happen 27%

Votes: 11
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o molecular nanotechnology
o "transhumanist"
o K. Eric Drexler
o greenrd's Diary


View: Display: Sort:
What is Transhumanist Socialism? | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Hmm (5.00 / 2) (#18)
by trhurler on Mon Oct 28th, 2002 at 02:24:33 PM EST
(abuse@127.0.0.1) file:///dev/zero

First of all, I'm not at all sure that this MNT of yours will be cheap enough or capable enough to do what you're talking about anytime soon. I imagine that it will happen, but it seems like it will probably take longer than the optimists are willing to admit.

Second, this notion of regulating a technology like this is just silly. Sure, it is scary - but that won't matter. If MNT can be done, then eventually it will be done in a reasonably sized package. Once that happens, regulation loses, because these things aren't like nukes: with one replicator, you can make more of the things, so the first time someone uses one in an unauthorized fashion is the very last time you can ever count on there not being a thriving black market in them. And of course, everyone will want such a device, even if he has no evil aims. Why wouldn't you want one? It'd be the perfect tool!

Third, even your "limited" MNT devices would be possible to abuse. The hardest part of making most interesting weapons is machining simple parts to exacting tolerances(assuming you already have a design, but those are easy to get even today, so why should we doubt this?) If publicly available devices have even the capabilities of current day CNC machine shops, then clearly they will allow ordinary people to assemble very dangerous weapons. That's life. The nice part is, what we 2nd amendment freaks have been saying for years will still be true: an armed society is a polite society.

In any case, this MNT cannot make elements; it can only make and assemble molecules. Therefore, the worst weapons applications are beyond its reach; you cannot manufacture plutonium with one of these things, for instance. However, given the massive applications for devices capable of assembling genetic codes, it is certain that biological weapons will be within easy reach of anyone who can rob a doctor's office sooner or later, assuming this technology works(which is a big if, actually.) Similarly, many chemicals that have legitimate industrial uses will have matching replicators that will be quite widespread, and yet also have uses that are less than entirely savory.

Controlling technology is fundamentally controlling knowledge. It simply won't work as a security strategy for the long haul. You can bang your authoritarian head against this wall until it kills you - or you can give up your strategy, and find a new one. This is why gun control doesn't work, and it is why hypothetical "replicator control" wouldn't work either. (I know, you think you aren't an authoritarian. This is because at heart, you think a democracy will choose your "obviously" superior ideas over others. You explicitly claim otherwise, but you protest too much; the fact remains that no prosperous democracy has ever chosen the extreme socialism you're promoting, or probably ever would. Prosperity obviates socialism.)

By the way, sociopathic tendencies are only frowned upon in those who act on them as criminals. Remember, a substantial part of the less reputable part of any government is made up of just such people:)

One thing I do agree with, though: MNT, if it works, can be made cheap, and isn't used by authoritarian fuckwits as an excuse to destroy the entire world in the name of saving said world, can drastically alter economic reality. Material scarcity would largely end. The thing you haven't yet realized is this: capitalism is not the only system that thrives on scarcity. Socialism needs it too - otherwise, why interact economically at all? If all have plenty, then interaction can be of a solely noneconomic nature, and economics as a science is mere stupidity. All of present economics needs scarcity to make sense.

Of course, there would still be some economic interaction, but it wouldn't resemble anything we know today, because it would purely be idea exchange, and it wouldn't be so much about gains and losses(what can you lose, after all?) but rather about reaching specific goals, producing things of beauty, and so on.

I too can be an idealist, but I am not bound by dogmatic horseshit from two centuries ago in defining my idealism:) Also, I have a healthy appreciation for the fact that most of this is guesswork, and that probably none of it will happen the way either of us sees it - even if this MNT does work, which seems at best maybe slightly probable.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Good job (none / 0) (#17)
by br284 on Mon Oct 28th, 2002 at 09:50:31 AM EST
(net.aetherial@kuro5hin) http://www.aetherial.net

I like that you're thinking about all of this and are making the effort to write about that. You should be applauded for your efforts. It gives me something to think about. I doubt that I'll agree with your motivations or your conclusions, but I do appreciate the additional challenge to my existing wolrdview.

One question though -- you mention a mechanism that is able to prevent some from gaining too much wealth in order to eliminate wage/wealth inequalities. Basically, someone or something has to decide who is too rich and who is not. Given base human nature, how do you propose that you keep the ones making the decisions about who has too much and who has not enough from becoming corrupt and using that (awesome) power in order to enrigh themselves? Are you counting on good-natured people only doing that job (despite the most vile ones would be aspiring for it), or do you know of an institutional mechanism that can keep this activity in check?

-Chris

You're quite the socialist... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Mon Oct 28th, 2002 at 12:30:32 AM EST

I wouldn't write no 2826 word essay unless I was paid.

You seem awefully focused on MNT. It might not happen the way you think it will and it might not happen for a long time.

However, any technology that lets us do more on less probably does bring us closer to the socialist paradise you described. If we could make lots of energy cheaply, for example, I think we'll have a lot more stuff to go around. Maybe there'll be less war because of that.

You think that personality traits should be screened for in fetuses? That sounds pretty damn totalitarian. You were just talking about sociopaths, but you can have a slippery slope problem. After all, I don't think sociopathy comes from one gene and I doubt you can define it sharply. You might end up with a society of Canadian-type people who cannot assert themselves when they're oppressed.

I'm like Jesus, only better.

a lengthy reply (none / 0) (#15)
by cthulhain on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 11:37:46 PM EST

I've posted a lengthy reply to this in a diary entry of my own.

It's my first diary ever, incidentally. I am now one of the boys.

--
nothing in his brain except a ruined echo of the sky.

Shocking (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 08:23:01 PM EST
(paul at jimmysquid dot com) http://jimmysquid.com/

It shocks me that you can say (presumably with a straight face) this,

"contemporary capitalism condemns millions of people ... to a life lacking in freedom, opportunity, and social inclusion."

directly before you say this,

"That work which remains which is unpleasant, or unfulfilling, or unregarded, should be given to those who honestly and freely volunteer to do it full-time, and/or shared out between people as far as is sensible, in order that everyone may have time to fairly participate in work/leisure which is pleasant, fulfilling, or well-regarded."

How is this freedom? First, let's remember human nature: nobody will do a dirty job without incentive. So the point about people 'honestly and freely' volunteering is out, and we're left with forcing people to take turns cleaning the toilets, mopping the floors, or whatever. I'm sorry, did you say freedom?

I do believe that a future with total abundance is possible, even likely.. but it will not take away freedom as you suggest, it will increase freedom.

--
jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.

What is Transhumanist Socialism? (none / 0) (#12)
by 0xdeadbeef on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 05:54:40 PM EST

I'm not sure, but I think it's a bit like eating Corn Flakes and Fruit Loops from the same bowl.

The territory is not the map.... or what? (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by zer 0 on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 04:16:01 PM EST

What is taste, if not the continuous engagement with the living, the chaotic and the wild?

F**k the taste of artificiality. I want to smell blood!

Food that can prevent illness exists already: it is locally organically grown.

Why is, on the one hand, the dynamics of global capitalism requiring us to run along with the pack, but on the other hand not an obstacle to the sudden, and actually unsubstantiated in argumentative terms [IMHO & understanding], revolutionary re-distribution of power? If MNT-thingies have to be limited and pre-programmed they must necessarily be controlled centrally, or what? - and if that is so, the central powers will be even more central and concentrated, or not? (or do benevolent aliens came to govern us?) And the technology will obviously be released according to a scheme of profit-maximisation, just as we see right here, right now in an area such as, for instance, bandwidth.

Iam telling you that me Grandmother used to say 'no two wrongs can make a right'. The current techno-progressive trajectory is but one of an infinite array of options and paradigms, and if one is not a techno-capital-fetishist there are certainly nothing that suggests that MNT-thingies, whatever they maybe, and please free me for molecularly assembled food, is any kind of progress. It seems like further down that dark alley that lifeless, socalled philosophers, as Karl Marx has been leading us down. Socialism does nor emerge from without through mediation, but from within and through participation, interaction and response-ability. There is no such thing as a technologically based emancipation, I think, and that is not because I am a primitivist. As you might guess I am a computer and internet user.

If MNT is such a profound paradigm shift, it seems even more important to shelve it until the general population's perception is changed for the better.

Even if we were to have our own little MNT-pet tomorrow that would outclass Aladin's genie in the bottle, would we be prepared for such freedom?

Can we create a freedom that we have to live into? I think not, I think that we have to live in freedom to create (anything). MNT does not read freedom, it reads Multi Neurotic Tendencies.

Look at a country like Denmark. Social-democratic basis, at least until the present fascim-flirting gang of thugs took over, but nevertheless the only country in the socalled developed world where the average age is decreasing. And why? Alcohol and other kinds of drug abuse and suicide is on the agenda of the most bored and boring people of the world. Is it freedom to have a wealth of material, amuse yourself to death and be in need of professional help?

Freedom comes from within and not from a machine, and if it does it is not my kind of freedom and where can I go if I want to say 'No, Thank You' ? I guess where I can go at present if i disagree with the powers that be: to hell.

Perhaps we should sort ourselves and our governments (by destroying them) before we equip anyone with the perfect tool to create a flipping Philip K. Dick scenario.

The full potential of the human being? Inside a little box? That is a damn potential, - sounds rather like a limitation. Have you ever lived naked in a jungle? Have you enjoyed the taste of raw flesh and blood? The joyful is limitless and the limitless is joyful. Machines are limited, and yes, logic applies to the potential extraplation of that sentence.

While I certainly enjoy such high-tech dimensions of existence as LSD and organic gardening, and cyberspace as an excellent tool for communication, there are still wonders and ponders that I need to address inside myself, to discover the depth of my human potential, and it does appear as if there are no shortages of people that require the same kind of introspection; i guess there is no need to mention freaks like Dick ;( Cheney, Dubya and the rest of the murderous elite. Where are we going to put them? They are the ones that are going to introduce new technologies, are they not? Or was there something that i missed, I mean is it not the American Department of Defence that funds the forefront of all technologial innovation? And who then, through outdated and repressive laws like Intellectual Property Rights exercised and enforced by non-democratic institutions like the WTO, and who hold on to their lemon that they keep squeezing even when it is as dry as a desert rats feet and the juice runs down their legs, helped by the poor girl structurally forced to satisfy their alienated lusts?

On which planet do we find the algorithms for the creation of socialist MNT-things?

Is part of this paradigm going to be DNA screening for the optimisation and perfection (read: sterilisation) of the human kind? Are we going to be punished for crimes we haven't comitted yet and breaches of laws that haven't been implemented yet? I am already waiting for the discovery of the terrorist gene: "I am happy to inform you that we successfully screened your new-born daughter, - she would have become a terrorist. She will be exterminated on Tuesday. You are invited to witness the celebration. Thank God and Bush that we spared you that trauma!"

Will I be sterilised for my dissent?

Nothing personal as you know, but this is not for me. Maybe one day - if we look like we have sorted the current mess.

I am ready to be convinced, but it is not happening through wishful sci-fi; for that to be effective you would have to erase quite a bit of programming.

I am neither a Luddhite, nor a Transhumanist, just as well as I am neither with Bush nor with Bin Laden.I stand well alone, right next to you and with the people in the middle. The ambiguities of a poem or a cannabis plant is more than satisfactory to me. What would I want with more?

Want?

More?

What?

Hey!



rabbit from a hat (5.00 / 2) (#9)
by demi on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 03:57:09 PM EST
http://rhizophora.com

Just keep in mind that a practical manufacturing strategy using MNT, as you term it, is 100% theoretical at this point. Government-funded projects at NIST and companies like Zyvex have been working on nano-assemblers for half a decade now (hard to believe it's been that long), but as of yet there have been no physical results that are promising. There has been progress in molecular self-assembly using prefabricated templates, but the tooling needed to carry out the reactions will never be at nonzero cost. Thinking of MNT as a technology along the lines of Star Trek's replicator is also foolhardy as it would violate fundamental thermodynamic and kinetic relationships - so you should adopt a little bit of skepticism to be safe. You can't convert CO2 to petroleum or plastic directly without huge inputs of energy. You can't recycle PVC to make taxol (a hideously expensive anti-cancer dug) without overcoming a number of rate barriers.

They'll be so cheap to produce that scarcity will become a non-issue!

That's ridiculous! There is nothing scarce about steel, glass, and plastic, but people want BMW's and are sometimes willing to steal/kill to get one. Things like luxury cars that are voluntarily limited in production may lose their cache if they suddenly became commonplace. But there will always be certain materials that are of finite supply, such as catalysts and other useful metals which a molecular assembler cannot fabricate. Your idea of MNT may do away with certain aspects of consumerism but not capitalism.

Goods and materials are scarce, it's true, but acquisition of influence, beauty, and history is the driving force of the powerful. Nobody that is stratospherically rich cares about baubles, which are always referred to as such - they're more to impress the masses. Of course, this diving force also transcends capitalism or any other phase of human history, so I doubt that transhumanist socialism would do better than its present-day cousins...

Transhumanist socialism is a ridiculous myth. (3.00 / 2) (#7)
by la princesa on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 03:20:37 PM EST
(torduange@yahoo.com) http://www.internetisshit.org/print.html

Read Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson if you want to see how nanotech will pan out, pretty much.

Work at a charity soup kitchen to get a feel for why everyone isn't into sharing the majority of their hard work with layabouts.  

Spend a week in any large government's beauracracy to understand why people like to at least think they can be rewarded for either hard work, asskissing, or general fast-talking.  

Lastly, fuck a girl or boy (your option of course) to understand why the human body doesn't need any additional crap implanted, transplanted, or appended to it.  Or just drop a hit of acid, either will show you what I mean.  

In your ideal world, no-one could be what they wanted to be, or do as they wished to do.  In this world, and the one I work towards, people have some chance of that, even the starving fuckers.  You'd sell humanity to the free riders.  That's fucking evil, regardless of anything you have to say about it all being the One True Way.  

Socialism=Free Riding Run Rampant=Satan.

Get thee behind me.  


___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?

Re (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by djotto on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 01:56:35 PM EST
(_12Rounds@yahoo.com)

Remember that we already have enuogh resources to take care of everyone. People, being people, grab more than they need. I don't see how the nano you're wishing for will change human nature... the best you can hope for is to shift the resource bottleneck from the end product to the raw materials and the product designs.

This transhumanism thingie (none / 0) (#2)
by quartz on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 01:52:46 PM EST

sounds relatively harmless until it attempts to infringe upon my god-given right to not give a fuck about other people, so I'm against it.

--
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and fuck 'em even if they can.
No, I'm sure it's not a troll... (5.00 / 3) (#1)
by Stick on Sun Oct 27th, 2002 at 01:49:06 PM EST
(stick@itupyourbum.com) http://itupyourbum.com

But rather an elaborate troll as an anti-troll in order to trolls! What say you sir?


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
What is Transhumanist Socialism? | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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