Archive Logo.jpg

February 21, 2006

H&I; Fires 21 Feb 06

Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite. You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place...

Heh. On this day in 1598 Boris Godunov was elected Tsar. 300 or so years later, family black sheep Boris Badinov goes into show business.

Democrats are finally working on an Iraq stance that has some substance. Good. -The Armorer

************************

bicarb51.jpg Domestic terrorism alert...heh - Cass










************************

CDR Salamander demonstrates why he'll not be flying the flag of an Admiral. Which is okay. Sometimes, the duty to speak truth, regardless of cost, is higher than getting those stars. Of course, as I discovered, it's a lot easier when you *realize* you were never gonna get those stars absent a high-casualty war anyway...

The Heartless Libertarian takes a look at divorce rates in the Army, and in so doing, illustrates some points I've been making about "news" and what is "newsworthy" and why we can't rely exclusively on the MSM. Have no doubts, however, we are reliant on them. Without them, blogs would be a very different medium.

Lex takes on Fukuyama, like Cassie did yesterday. I keep dithering, all the good stuff is gonna be said and I can just lead the 'amen chorus'.

On a wholly unrelated note to anything, my gruntle was removed this morning.

The upcoming fall session of the Supreme Court should be interesting. I can see the political ads for the upcoming elections already...

RINO Sightings are up!

[dons bald-wig] [splashes water on it, simulating sweat] [rubs hand over head and face] The horror! The... horror!

Shamelessly stolen from Cassandra: And the answer is... Teddy Bear, by some guy named Presley.

The Armorer also knows where he'll be on 2 June... -The Armorer

*********************************
We're SELLING OUR PORTS?????????
This cannot be happening, can it? ~AFSister

*********************************
For my 1st H&I;, I share with you this modest SNAP.
Them contractors must be feeling powerful 'n mighty. - BOQ

*********************************

Phred Phelps' Phollowers appear to have met their match. You'll never view 5,000 bikers in quite the same way... -- cw4(ret)billt

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I; fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to that particular topic. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

Comments on H&I; Fires 21 Feb 06
jim b briefed on February 21, 2006 10:03 AM

Democrats working on an Iraq stance that has some substance??????????????????

".....and the report has been circulated among all senators by Senator Dianne Feinstein, an influential moderate Democrat from California."

Diane Feinstein a moderate?.

It's run away from Iraq, plan II before that evil George wins. Chapter 2 Verse 2...... hit it.... from the top!!

cw4(ret)billt briefed on February 21, 2006 10:51 AM

Yes, it's important to remember that this isn't a plan for withdrawal, it's a plan for redeployment.

And it's important to remember that you aren't being laid off, you're being downsized.

Uhhhhh--just out of sheer curiosity, no one has asked the Dems just *where* in the region they plan as a redeployment site for the troops.

Syria, maybe? Iran? Plenty of vacant terrain for expeditionary camp sites in *both* garden spots...

Cassandra briefed on February 21, 2006 10:59 AM

Iran, more likely.

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 11:07 AM

All I said was it 'had some substance'.

Which is good.

Because now there is something to look at and argue about.

Rather than give them the confused scrup'l look and go, "Urrrr?" when they bloviate.

Note, they don't want to go into too much detail... because we might, um, talk about it.

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 11:09 AM

*mrflge! mfgkepotyu dksl dislryhex!"

(Sound of Armorer choking on words because, well, he can't say anything about something.)

cw4(ret)billt briefed on February 21, 2006 11:51 AM

Well, hot diggety--the OPSEC shield works!

*fiddling with rheostat while adjusting gap in garlock seal*

Just gotta tweak it a bit so John doesn't turn as deep a purple next time...

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 12:25 PM

Thanks. That *was* a little annoying. It's a good color on me for a shirt, but not skin.

AFSister briefed on February 21, 2006 12:59 PM

"Ode to Billy Joe" by Bobbie Gentry?
jeez.
I want something kewl, like "House of the Rising Sun", which would have been my song if I had been born 3 years earlier, or maybe 9 years later, because then it would have been "Play That Funky Music".

SWEEEEEEEET!


CDR Salamander briefed on February 21, 2006 01:09 PM

...the first Flag Officer "off-site" where they had some SES-4 babble on for 30 minutes in B-school speak saying a whole lot about nothing while I play "Bu11sh1t Bingo" in my head knowing 90% of the people in the room are hearing but not understanding/caring....yea....I'm in my happy place. ;)

Barb briefed on February 21, 2006 01:10 PM

Mine is "All Shook Up" by Elvis Presley.

jim b briefed on February 21, 2006 01:38 PM

And from out of left field comes this contribution from lil Jimmie (58) running for Congress, from Nevada:

'Jimmy Carter's Son: "I'm pro-choice as far as a woman choosing, but I'm against abortion"'

Little does the press know (cause he hasn't blurted it yet)
He is pro-gun, but against anyone actually owning one.
He is anti high interest rate, unless his dad comes back as president.
He is pro-animal rights, but against animals voting.
He is pro-nudist camp, but God help us if he takes off his clothes and shows his pastey body ... thereby spooking the animals.
He is pro-freedom of speech, unless you disagree with him, or his daddie.
He is pro-drugs, because he wants to tax them.

And lastly he looks a lot like my cheezy moonbat brother-in-law, which is why I want to relocate his nose around to the other side of his face when I see him.

Carry on.

cw4(ret)billt briefed on February 21, 2006 01:43 PM

Just back from the Firebase.

Hopefully, the sound will *not* travel much past Indiana...

Very Silent Boquisucio briefed on February 21, 2006 02:06 PM

Oh yeah - Nacho Man!

jim b briefed on February 21, 2006 02:37 PM

Alrighty then ... I can see by Mickey's hands that it's time to beat the 'cable dude' to the home and be there so he can do his magic. I simply cannot miss Benny Hill.

MY GOD, those Hill's Angels chickies can act!!!!

ry briefed on February 21, 2006 02:41 PM

Heh. Sgt. B can play the pipes all he wants and we'd enjoy it out here in Indiana. Would beat having to listen to the undergrads and their stupid 'boom, ba boom boom' from their $3000 car stereo systems playing (c)rap music or mullet rock.

Demo plan: I thought it said that they wanted to redeploy to Kuwait? And, I don't believe any left of center person that they're actually down with a take down/raid on Iran. That's just rhetoric tricks to be against the Iraq War(until they can proove otherwise). That's why I don't think, whatever anyone has heard in the Halls of Professional-dom, that absolutely nothing using force will be done wrt Iran. Bush ain't Reagan and Iran isn't Libya.

ry briefed on February 21, 2006 02:43 PM

Song at birth: Clapton's 'I Shot the Sheriff'(always prefered the Marley version though).

ry briefed on February 21, 2006 02:51 PM

Re: Iran.
I'm with the Phibian on this one. a

ry briefed on February 21, 2006 03:20 PM

One more then I head down to the headache inducing NMR machine:
http://paulboutin.weblogger.com/stories/storyReader$1439
(shudder)

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 04:19 PM

Boq - good first link!

AFSis - little late to the discussion... on a technical note - they haven't been ours for some time, it's Brits selling 'em to the Arabs. And, IIRC, Hutchison Whampoa (China) operates the old LA Naval Base? I know they were interested, but mebbe that didn't go through.

And running the port isn't quite the same as being responsible for security, as others have pointed out - but we aren't doing a very good job of that, regardless.

And boy, is Hillary making hay out of this one.

Cassandra briefed on February 21, 2006 04:43 PM

Well, believe it or not, I was Kansas City:

I'm going to Kansas City
Kansas City here I come
I'm going to Kansas City
Kansas City here I come
They got a crazy way of loving there
And I'm gonna get me some...

Heh...

Sgt. B. briefed on February 21, 2006 04:44 PM

I once punked out a "thumper car" with the Queen's Highland Regiment Pipes and Drums... *grin*

They were always good for those barracks "boom box" wars as well...

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 04:53 PM

Heh. Cassie's been talking to SWWBO again.

But she's married to a Redleg, so she's been getting it just fine in Virginia, too!

1sg Keith briefed on February 21, 2006 05:15 PM

Don’t be cruel to a heart that’s true.
I don’t want no other love,
Baby it’s just you I’m thinking of.

'Don't be Cruel' by the big E.....

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 07:06 PM

John, from your link to Dem's Iraq plan:
"Most of the other troops would be redeployed to other key areas -- Afghanistan, Southeast Asia, and the Horn of Africa -- with large, quick-strike forces placed in Kuwait."

It seems several people here missed that bit.

Something else from the same link:
"This fall, in elections that Democrats hope will bring them back to power in Congress, more than 50 military veterans are running in congressional races as Democrats."

From Wash Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021801295.html
"(Major Tammy) Duckworth, who considers the Iraq war a mistake, is among about a dozen veterans who served in Iraq or Afghanistan running for federal office this year, at last count all but one of them Democrats."

Anyone got any bright ideas why this might be so?

(Apart from the obvious one...?)

I see that Maj Duckworth is no longer the darling of conservative blogland. When does the swiftboating begin? Is somebody going to say that losing two legs to an RPG doesn't merit a Purple Heart?

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 07:17 PM

Ry: "Bush ain't Reagan and Iran isn't Libya."

Of course, if Bush were Reagan, he'd be secretly giving the Iranians missiles.

Barb briefed on February 21, 2006 07:45 PM

OD - as to why the ones who have left service are mostly running as Dems, it's simple. They are the ones who left, and are not devoted to the mission.

There have been thousands of men and women wounded who are Not running for any office, either as R or D. Against that total, a dozen people who are choosing to enter politics are hardly a statistical universe.

Ask a thousand or so of the men and women who have been wounded and are still supporting the war and the Mission ... And start with CPT Chuck Ziegenfuss, or SgtMaj Brad Kasal, or LTC Erik Kurilla, to name a few.

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 07:54 PM

“OD - as to why the ones who have left service are mostly running as Dems, it's simple. They are the ones who left, and are not devoted to the mission.”

So the swiftboating starts now, eh?

‘Nearly all of her right leg has been amputated, and she has lost her left leg beneath the knee. Her left leg will be fitted with a prosthesis, and Duckworth is grasping at every hope that she can also be fitted with a right-leg prosthesis, her husband explained, so she can again fly helicopters or fixed-wing airplanes or at least remain in the Army Guard.
“Remaining a Soldier is her fall-back position,” her husband (a Guard Captain) told a reporter while Duckworth talked and joked with her visitors. “She will try to fly Blackhawks with prostheses after a long recovery period. She will go before a medical review board in six months or a year. Their decision may depend on whether she can pass a physical fitness test.”’

Try again, Barb.

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 08:03 PM

C'mon, Owen. There's room on both sides of the issue. Don't you go down the same path you are accusing others of treading.

If we get 50 dems who are competent on defense matters. so much the better. Then perhaps they'll have something useful to say on the issue.

That was a cheap shot at Barb, to no purpose.

Barb's point is valid, as far as it goes.

Your point is valid, as far as it goes.

Neither of you have a lock on the truth.

I say more Dems with military credentials, the better.

I would say the same of Republicans.

Brab briefed on February 21, 2006 08:19 PM

Owen - You took that further than I meant it. I simply meant that the ones who are running for office are trying to Change things because they Disagree. Nothing inherently wrong with disagreeing, it's part of the process, and if they can invent a better mouse-trap to keep this country safe, let 'em at it.

By the way - I don't know who is running down Tammy Duckworth or any other vet of OIF/OEF, but it sure as helk isn't me. So don't try to tar me with the 'swiftboat' brush.

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 08:30 PM

John - I would have thought Murtha was competent on defence matters, but we all remember how his proposals were greeted on the other side of the aisle. As a PR problem.

Ultimately, there can be no meeting of the minds when one group is bent on prolonging the war in an effort to save military prestige. If that's the cause, there will always be a reason to fight.

The original (non-existant) cause of this war is of course, ancient history. The replacement cause, Iraqi democracy, is getting rather less play these days, since nobody serious believes Iraq is going to be a functioning liberal democracy.

What does that leave? "Cowards cut and run. Marines never do."

A war being fought to prove America is tough. Of course, many of us feel that that was a largish part of the original motive as well.

I sincerely hope that Republicans DO try to attack the credibility of people like Duckworth. I'd really like to see them try.

Anyway, I'll leave my euro-whining there. For now. One of these days I'll pop in for a REAL spat.

Thanks for the gun pron and all the interesting links, by the way.

Regards, Owen

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 08:34 PM

Sorry, Barb, if I misconstrued or misrepresented you.

Brab briefed on February 21, 2006 08:38 PM

Owen - No harm, no foul. I have to agree with John - I'd like to see various people enter politics. I think we get too stale with folks who've been around too long!

Come back for another spat sometime!

kat-missouri briefed on February 21, 2006 08:49 PM

Actually, on duckworth, OD is full of it in regards to "no longer being the darling of the conservatives". A number of conservative military blogs linked to her story and said "good luck", including me. No comments on much of anything accept one sight that had a healthy debate about her views on the war, none of which accused her of being a coward or a liar or stupid or anything else that one could rightfully claim for a certain senator from massachusettes.

And, let me say this, no one's military service makes them exempt from having their ideas challenged. What OD refuses to acknowledge about Mssr Kerry and the Swiftboats is that Mssr Kerry made his service a key component of his campaign, even saluting at the Dem convention and saying "ready to serve" all the while having to have known that his anti-war activities from Vietnam, his four months in, his funky discharge and any number of other things were lurking in his background. He was just hoping that they would be dismissed as a part of history or that the story of Vietnam was now how the anti-wars won and that everyone would agree that he was right, giving him a pass on all the other things he did.

He was wrong on all accounts. Particularly, since the rest of his political experience included declaring Boston a "nuke free zone", insisting that the cold war would never be won and the US should give in, meeting with Daniel Ortega and getting an unauthorized "peace agreement" the day before Ortega went to the USSR and got support; his "investigation" into drug running and then having his "witness" protected by a Communist Latino front group from South America? I mean, we're talking about a lot of stuff on Mssr. John "winter soldier" Kerry beyond the Duckworth situation. Who, I might add, doesn't need to have her purple heart varified since it's pretty obvious she got it for more than some rice grains in her butt.

What's funny is that OD keeps talking about it "when are they going to swiftboat Duckworth", when it's pretty obvious that it's not going to happen since he has to keep asking the question.

Why the paranoia? Next time, back somebody who, at least, isn't a provable liar with a huge anti-military/anti-defense background in the middle of a war. Then he might have a chance at winning.

punctilious briefed on February 21, 2006 08:53 PM

Just wanna note that I don't really remember the release dates for those songs. I just know the lyrics 'cause I've heard 'em before. Mine is by The Everly Brothers.

kat-missouri briefed on February 21, 2006 09:09 PM

Umm..Iraq democracy is not going to happen?

those Iraq politicians are probably really surprised that OD has their future mapped out for them already.

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 09:38 PM

Actually I said liberal democracy is not going to happen.

I probably jumped the gun on Duckworth. Some people can't really be attacked that way. Karl Rove is too smart to try it. Even in Murtha's case, that woman had to take back her 'coward' comment. So I guess Duckworth is safe.

ry briefed on February 21, 2006 09:51 PM

OD, forgot who you were a moment. You need to comment more.

"Of course, if Bush were Reagan, he'd be secretly giving the Iranians missiles."
Ah, the art of the partisna as hell, blindsided, cheap shot isn't dead.
Utterly beside the point I was trying to make(or should I go on with the lame game of slandering some and listing virtues of 'my guys'?).
Reagan could get much of the country to back him on things(some of the time). The Libya punitive strike being one.
Libya of the mid-80's isn't the Iran of today. A punitive strike doesn't solve the matter the way that the Libyan raid did. That's my point. Period.

Now, if you want to play a game of who's the bigger &ick; or who can tar the opposition better I'd say come back next week. Not in the mood this week for just sheer flame war. Or I could just admit that you're better at it/a bigger one than me, and forgoe the whole exercise. Whadda ya say? (Keep in mind, I was one of the people DEFENDING Murtha on the Castle Grounds.)

Bad Cat Robot briefed on February 21, 2006 09:55 PM

Speaking of Dark Lord Karl, I haven't gotten my weekly instructions OR my paycheck. What's up with that? Do my fillings need to be retuned?

Owen. You were doing so well ...

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 10:31 PM

I'm not suggesting Rove has a chip in your brain, far from it. I'm saying that he wouldn't try smearing Duckworth because he knows most Republican supporters wouldn't go along.

Ry, I did actually agree with your analysis about Iran. But unlike you I was in flame war mood.

OD briefed on February 21, 2006 10:52 PM

Having said that, Ry, my point was more than a flame. You say nothing military will happen on Iran because Bush is no Reagan.

In fact it was Jimmy Carter who last gave the military option a shot when dealing with the Iranians.

Unless you count backing Saddam's invasion while selling missiles to the Iranians as exercising the military option.

Bad Cat Robot briefed on February 21, 2006 10:58 PM

That's good to hear, and thank you for clarifying. I would be immensely chuffed, however, if you could entertain the notion that Rove does not actually want to smear Duckworth, or anyone else for that matter. Or that "Swiftboating" might perhaps mean "lots of people who know what they are talking about contradicting public statements made by someone running for public office and using verifiable facts to do it".

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 11:05 PM

Ladies, Gentlemen, Undecideds....

Reminder.

Message. Not messenger.

Play well and prosper.

John of Argghhh! briefed on February 21, 2006 11:14 PM

Owen, let's not seriously call Desert One, etc, a "military option" in a meaningful sense. Especially since the two objectives are not remotely similar for comparative purposes.

No disrespect to the dead, they just did their duty.

But, really. In that particular, you are mixing apples and oranges.

ry briefed on February 21, 2006 11:36 PM

Fair enough Owen. Just making sure that we're both going to be somewhat polite. Thanks for getting the drift of some of what I was saying instead of teeing up or getting offended by them.

Are you sure you want to go with Jimmy Carter and his uber-flawed operation? An operation that most of the SOF operators who've written anything about it has said was a no-go or flaming cluster____? Mr. Peanut had his good points(pointed out by Sanger in a comment long ago), but the man had as many, and as perilous, flaws as whatever Reagan had. Ordering the military to act after doing alot to reduce capabilities to do what you ask doesn't seem like brilliance to me.

You have to admit that there's a certain amount brilliance in having Iran and Iraq go at it, just like handing the SovUnion its own Vietnam in Afghanistan was, don't you? It's the same brilliance the Brits used in establishing partisans in Europe during ww2, thank you Winnie, that seems to have been the genesis/model of the majority of violent ideological groups ever since(talk about blowback, the IRA took Winston's model and flung it back in his nations face to get Mountbatten).

I don't think the situation is as binary as you make it out. Even under Reagan did the US have the forces available to go head up with the Iranians AND maintain forces necessary for NATO commitments and REFORGER? I may be only an amateur, but I think that it's an obvious no. That's why the proxy battle was smart. From reading Keegan I've found that essentially neither the Iranians or Iraq under Hussein was much liked, and that essentially we held our noses when dealing with both(just like we held our noses when dealing with the Contras, who weren't any nicer than the Sandanistas).
And what exactly did the US gain by attacking Iran directly? And don't forget Cap Weinberger losing his spin after Lebanon(which kinda precluded Reagan from sending troops to fight Iran from domestic pressures---we still hadn't gotten the taste of Vietnam out of our mouths. That didn't seem to occur until 'Bear' Schwartzkopf and the 'Left Hook'---a reverse Periclean strategy: instead of undertaking a war to avoid domestic troubles making a decision not to go to war BECAUSE of domestic entanglements) kinda hurt Reagan's ability to act in such a manner, had he decided to do so. Now that I've mentioned it doesn't Carter's Op. Eagle Claw seem rather a rather Periclean effort(the Malaise/dismal economy), and an obvious attempt to dispell the 'democrats are soft on defense issues'(kinda like Dukakis in a tank and tankers helmet)? I mean, the radicals had the prisoners for over a year. Why wait until an election year before reaching for the hammer? I'm sure there's more to it than that. Mr Peanut wasn't an evil man. Just not the right man for the times in which he lived. He was the democrats Herbert Hoover.

And if you really want a flame war, just chomping at the bit for one right now, you might try this place: http://thecrankfiles.blogspot.com/ . They're always up for a flame war. They live on it.
If you want a somewhat polite one I might be game later. Just not really filled with enough vitriol to do it right now. ;)

Heartless Libertarian briefed on February 22, 2006 12:52 AM

Re: Dems working on Iraq policy that actually has substance

Last I checked, crap was still a substance.

...
And it sounds to me like MAJ Duckworth is still on active duty, doing rehad and such. Last I checked, you had to be off active duty to run for public office. Not sure of the rules on Guard or Reserve members. I know that some politico for SC was in a legal stew about holding office while also being a JAG office in the AF Reserve or ANG.

As far as the Dems running more vets that the GOP, I'd have to say that Barb's got the right idea...those who think the mission was a bad idea are more likely to leave the service than those who think it was the right thing to do. Those opposed to the war are also much more likely to find support from the Democrats.

Cricket briefed on February 22, 2006 07:24 AM

Hokay, on the bagpipes, sorry, love them and firmly believe that "Amazing Grace" is the only hymn that can be soulfully played on those things.

On Mr. Phelps and His General Twittiness; he is a few Phroot Loupes shy of a bowl. In the Bible that I read and was taught from, sin is an individual thing, and handled by Divine Providence accordingly. I could go on into some Personal Beliefs, but rather than lead the Denizen(nes) astray into the Church of Cricket, just put it out there to read the Good Book
for themselves.

Post a comment









Remember personal info?