Revelatory and Confirmatory Gifts
With the continued rise of the mystical charismatic doctrines that have invaded the church (including reformed churches), I wish to keep this subject before my colleagues. I believe that good and righteous men and women can error in their faith and practice and still be children of God. Aren't we all guilty of that at times ... and thank God for grace. But that does not give us an excuse to tolerate unbiblical teachings that are damaging to the church. I highly respect Dr. Wayne Grudem's and John Piper's sermons and books, although these men are examples of reformed theologians who are "mildly" Charismatic.
Yet, I firmly believe that Charismatic doctrines are damaging the church. The current day version of "tongues" and "private prayer languages" are not Christian practices found in the Scripture. And what is found in the Bible must be the foundation of our discussion. One's experiences or feelings do not carry the equal authority of Scripture. So to remove the emotional aspect of this discussion lets just deal with the facts for a moment.
Now I usually hate long blog posts, but out of necessity I have found it better to go on "blog-record" with my Biblical arguments before I engage in further discussions that get quite controversial. So I would like to just give my simple Biblical definition of revelatory and confirmatory gifts.
1. Definition: a special ability to receive and pass on to others a disclosure of God’s mysteries during the period when He was granting direct revelations to members of the body of Christ. This gift is a “receiving of revelations” gift used in correlation with the gift of knowledge and the gift of prophecy in communicating important information to the infant Church. 1 Cor. 2:6-13; 2 Peter 3:15; Eph. 2:19-21, 3:3-6, 9-10.
2. Replaced by gift of apostleship. 1 Cor. 12:8; 1 Cor. 12:28-29.
3. Not the same as general wisdom available to all Christians. James 1:5.
B. Knowledge
1. Definition: a special ability to grasp objective data that results from special revelation connected with the word of wisdom, to systematize it, and extend its implications to new situations. 1 Cor. 12:8; 1 Cor. 13:8,9,12; 1 Cor. 7:40; 1 Cor. 7:10-12; Eph. 2:19-3:10; Col. 1:26-23; 2 Pet. 3:2-3; Jude 17-18.
2. It’s application is inerrant and otherwise not knowable without inspiration. Therefore, it is not illumination or knowledge that comes from study.
3. Ceased after it was replaced by prophecy. 1 Cor. 12:28,29.
C. Prophecy
1. Definition: The gift of prophecy was a special ability to received direct divine revelation to be written or spoken in inspired and authoritative words to the local churches to reveal the mysteries of God (1 Cor. 13:2; 14:3, 29, 30, 37; Eph. 2:20, 3:3,5). The gift also included a special ability to predict the future (Acts 11:27-28; 21:10-11; 1 Tim. 1:18; Rev. 1:3).
2. Examples: The Apostle Paul (Acts 27:22-24, 34) and the four daughters of Philip (Acts 21:9).
3. Ceased with Apostle John’s writing of The Book of Revelation: Rev. 22:18
D. Distinguishing of Spirits
1. Definition: a special ability of someone who also has the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:29, 12:10) to pass immediate judgment on prophetic utterances given in the church by another prophet as to whether the utterance was of the Holy Spirit or not.
2. Example: Paul. Acts 16:16-18.
3. Ceased when the gift of prophecy ceased.
1. Definition: a special ability to believe God to the point that He would miraculously remove particular hindrances in the spread of the Good News; and a special ability of the members of the early Church used to overcome obstacles to their ministries for Christ. This gift is not “saving faith” and “living faith” that is possessed by all believers.
2. References: 1 Cor. 12:9-10; 13:2; Matt. 17:20; 21:21; Mark 11:23; Acts 13:11-12; 27:22-34.
3. Ceased with the other confirmatory gifts.
B. The Gift(s) of Healing(s)
1. Definition: a special ability to trust God to perform a variety of supernatural physical healings for the purpose of spreading the Good News. This gift could not be exercised indiscriminately, but had to be accompanied by a consciousness of harmony with the will of God in any given instance.
2. Examples: Acts 2; 3:6ff; 4:1, 2, 9, 10, 14, 16.
3. Ceased with the other confirmatory gifts.
C. The Gift of the Effecting of Miracles
1. Definition: a special ability to trust God to perform specific signs, miracles, and wonders to validate God’s messenger and gain hearing of the Gospel. It was also a companion gift to gift of faith.
2. Examples
a. Resurrection: Acts 9:40
b. Produce blindness: Acts 13:8-11
c. Acts 19:11; 2 Cor. 12:12; Gal. 3:5; Heb. 2:4.
3. Ceased with completion of New Testament. Note: The age of miracles continues, but the age of miracle workers has ceased.
D. The Gift of Tongues
1. The Nature of the Gift of Tongues
a. special capability to speak a foreign language that had not been learned by the natural and usual method.
b. Acts 2:4 -11. Greek term dialekto means “dialect” (human language) in vss 6 and 8.
2. The Purpose of the Gift of Tongues
a. 1 Cor. 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers.” The gift of tongues authenticated an inspired message that the spokesman generally delivered in the Greek language, the common language throughout the Mediterranean world at that time. Examples: Acts 2:22ff; 8:17-18; 10:44-46; 14:3; 19:5-6; 1 Cor. 14:18b.
b. 1 Cor. 14:2, 5b, 13. Tongue speakers spoke Divine revelations (that were fully communicated through the interpretation of the tongues)
3. The Duration of the Gift of Tongues
Replaced when Church's foundation was completed or “mature” (1Cor. 13:10). Of course, the church is still growing and maturing today, but the foundation was completed in the first century with the completion of the New Testament. Maturity also means completion of transition from “old” covenant to “new” covenant. Note: Paul allowed for immediate return of Christ as the completion process of maturity because he believed in an imminent return of Christ (1 Cor. 13:12; Eph. 4:13). But we know that Christ did not return in the first century.
E. The Gift of the Interpretation of Tongues
1. Definition: a special ability to translate into one’s own language from a foreign language that had never been learned by natural means. 1 Cor. 14. It was a companion gift to the gift of tongues because the revelation revealed by the gift of tongues was confirmed and communicated to those who did not speak the language spoken by the gift of tongues. Its counterpart gifts were prophecy and knowledge: Acts 19:6; 1 Cor. 13:8-11. But unlike those gifts this one depended on a previous revelation uttered by gifts of tongues.
2. Lasted only as long as the revelatory gifts it confirmed.
Additional Notes:
Yet, I firmly believe that Charismatic doctrines are damaging the church. The current day version of "tongues" and "private prayer languages" are not Christian practices found in the Scripture. And what is found in the Bible must be the foundation of our discussion. One's experiences or feelings do not carry the equal authority of Scripture. So to remove the emotional aspect of this discussion lets just deal with the facts for a moment.
Now I usually hate long blog posts, but out of necessity I have found it better to go on "blog-record" with my Biblical arguments before I engage in further discussions that get quite controversial. So I would like to just give my simple Biblical definition of revelatory and confirmatory gifts.
I. Group One: Revelatory Gifts provided revelation of previously unrevealed truths and an accompanying ability to communicate those truths in inspired messages.A. Wisdom = (Word of Wisdom)
1. Definition: a special ability to receive and pass on to others a disclosure of God’s mysteries during the period when He was granting direct revelations to members of the body of Christ. This gift is a “receiving of revelations” gift used in correlation with the gift of knowledge and the gift of prophecy in communicating important information to the infant Church. 1 Cor. 2:6-13; 2 Peter 3:15; Eph. 2:19-21, 3:3-6, 9-10.
2. Replaced by gift of apostleship. 1 Cor. 12:8; 1 Cor. 12:28-29.
3. Not the same as general wisdom available to all Christians. James 1:5.
B. Knowledge
1. Definition: a special ability to grasp objective data that results from special revelation connected with the word of wisdom, to systematize it, and extend its implications to new situations. 1 Cor. 12:8; 1 Cor. 13:8,9,12; 1 Cor. 7:40; 1 Cor. 7:10-12; Eph. 2:19-3:10; Col. 1:26-23; 2 Pet. 3:2-3; Jude 17-18.
2. It’s application is inerrant and otherwise not knowable without inspiration. Therefore, it is not illumination or knowledge that comes from study.
3. Ceased after it was replaced by prophecy. 1 Cor. 12:28,29.
C. Prophecy
1. Definition: The gift of prophecy was a special ability to received direct divine revelation to be written or spoken in inspired and authoritative words to the local churches to reveal the mysteries of God (1 Cor. 13:2; 14:3, 29, 30, 37; Eph. 2:20, 3:3,5). The gift also included a special ability to predict the future (Acts 11:27-28; 21:10-11; 1 Tim. 1:18; Rev. 1:3).
2. Examples: The Apostle Paul (Acts 27:22-24, 34) and the four daughters of Philip (Acts 21:9).
3. Ceased with Apostle John’s writing of The Book of Revelation: Rev. 22:18
D. Distinguishing of Spirits
1. Definition: a special ability of someone who also has the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:29, 12:10) to pass immediate judgment on prophetic utterances given in the church by another prophet as to whether the utterance was of the Holy Spirit or not.
2. Example: Paul. Acts 16:16-18.
3. Ceased when the gift of prophecy ceased.
II. Group Two: Confirmatory Gifts were used by God to confirm His inspired messages during the first century. Confirmatory gifts supported the revelatory gifts by giving people a visible means by which to know whether a revelation is from God or not.A. The Gift of Faith
1. Definition: a special ability to believe God to the point that He would miraculously remove particular hindrances in the spread of the Good News; and a special ability of the members of the early Church used to overcome obstacles to their ministries for Christ. This gift is not “saving faith” and “living faith” that is possessed by all believers.
2. References: 1 Cor. 12:9-10; 13:2; Matt. 17:20; 21:21; Mark 11:23; Acts 13:11-12; 27:22-34.
3. Ceased with the other confirmatory gifts.
B. The Gift(s) of Healing(s)
1. Definition: a special ability to trust God to perform a variety of supernatural physical healings for the purpose of spreading the Good News. This gift could not be exercised indiscriminately, but had to be accompanied by a consciousness of harmony with the will of God in any given instance.
2. Examples: Acts 2; 3:6ff; 4:1, 2, 9, 10, 14, 16.
3. Ceased with the other confirmatory gifts.
C. The Gift of the Effecting of Miracles
1. Definition: a special ability to trust God to perform specific signs, miracles, and wonders to validate God’s messenger and gain hearing of the Gospel. It was also a companion gift to gift of faith.
2. Examples
a. Resurrection: Acts 9:40
b. Produce blindness: Acts 13:8-11
c. Acts 19:11; 2 Cor. 12:12; Gal. 3:5; Heb. 2:4.
3. Ceased with completion of New Testament. Note: The age of miracles continues, but the age of miracle workers has ceased.
D. The Gift of Tongues
1. The Nature of the Gift of Tongues
a. special capability to speak a foreign language that had not been learned by the natural and usual method.
b. Acts 2:4 -11. Greek term dialekto means “dialect” (human language) in vss 6 and 8.
2. The Purpose of the Gift of Tongues
a. 1 Cor. 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers.” The gift of tongues authenticated an inspired message that the spokesman generally delivered in the Greek language, the common language throughout the Mediterranean world at that time. Examples: Acts 2:22ff; 8:17-18; 10:44-46; 14:3; 19:5-6; 1 Cor. 14:18b.
b. 1 Cor. 14:2, 5b, 13. Tongue speakers spoke Divine revelations (that were fully communicated through the interpretation of the tongues)
3. The Duration of the Gift of Tongues
Replaced when Church's foundation was completed or “mature” (1Cor. 13:10). Of course, the church is still growing and maturing today, but the foundation was completed in the first century with the completion of the New Testament. Maturity also means completion of transition from “old” covenant to “new” covenant. Note: Paul allowed for immediate return of Christ as the completion process of maturity because he believed in an imminent return of Christ (1 Cor. 13:12; Eph. 4:13). But we know that Christ did not return in the first century.
E. The Gift of the Interpretation of Tongues
1. Definition: a special ability to translate into one’s own language from a foreign language that had never been learned by natural means. 1 Cor. 14. It was a companion gift to the gift of tongues because the revelation revealed by the gift of tongues was confirmed and communicated to those who did not speak the language spoken by the gift of tongues. Its counterpart gifts were prophecy and knowledge: Acts 19:6; 1 Cor. 13:8-11. But unlike those gifts this one depended on a previous revelation uttered by gifts of tongues.
2. Lasted only as long as the revelatory gifts it confirmed.
Additional Notes:
- The gift of prophecy could be used as both confirmatory gifts and revelatory gifts because of the nature of predicting the future as well as providing authoritative truth.
- The gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues could be used as revelatory gifts, as well, since if provided authoritative truth.
- Revelatory and confirmatory gifts ceased after the foundation of Church was laid in the first century (Eph. 2:20).
(Also see my post on the Gift of Apostleship to the church and read Tim Challies excellent interview with Dr. Waldron.)
(See Bret Capranica's great post on the subject of Private Prayer Language.)
(I wish to credit Dr. Robert Thomas' Understanding Spiritual Gifts as my primary reference for preparing this simple outline. There are many good books on this subject but I have chosen to promote this one because of its verse-by-verse study of 1 Corinthians 12-14 which goes to the heart of this matter. By the way it also has a helpful critique of Dr. Wayne Grudem's book The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today which Dr. Thomas claims "falls short" of Biblical standards.)
29 Comments:
Most who are on the other side of the cessationist issue refuse to honestly deal with Dr. Thomas' treatment on the ccessationist side of the argument.
Another resource regarding Wayne Grudem is Dr. David Farnell's TMS journal article: Fallible New Testament Prophets? A Critique of Wayne Grudem's Hypothesis
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj2h.pdf
Here's one more from Dr. Thomas:
1 Corinthians 13:11 Revisited: An Exegetical Update 4/187-202
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj93.asp
Jason, help me understand why Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:2; "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men," (You said tongues was a language that could be understood by some people group. this is the prayer language in tongues not speaking to man but to God! Paul goes on to say "for no one understands, but in his own spirit he speaks mysteries."
(v.3) Pephecy is to edify men and exhort men.
(4)When you speak in a tongue, it's for your own edification, Why? Your speaking to God and not man!
(v.5) Paul told them he wished they all spoke in tongues, although because of the church factor he would they prophesy, unless there is someone to interpret the tongue, not translate it, interpret it.
You wrote:
(2. The Purpose of the Gift of Tongues
a. 1 Cor. 14:22, “Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers.” The gift of tongues authenticated an inspired message that the spokesman generally delivered in the Greek language, the common language throughout the Mediterranean world at that time. Examples: Acts 2:22ff; 8:17-18; 10:44-46; 14:3; 19:5-6; 1 Cor. 14:18b.) WHERE OR HOW PRAY TELL CAN YOU READ THE VERSES YOU LISTED AND CONCLUDE YOU WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES WERE SPEAKING IN GREEK??????
I'M not even going to comment on your understanding of wisdom and knowledge other than to say "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God." Another verse says we have the mind of Christ, interesting enough it was Christ who said believers would speak with new tongues, but He did not limit it to 1st Century believers, He said believers, Jason do you believe?
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is about not being self-centered in one's worship. That is the worship style of false religions. Speaking in an unknown tongue to god in verse two was a practice of these false religions. That is why Paul used it as an illustration of self-centered, un-profitable worship. Notice the emphasis on the fact that one's mind is not used when worshipping like that. That goes to the heart of why this is a dangerous false practice. We are to worship with all our being - including our mind. God is not interested in you saying stuff to him that you don't understand. Such subjective emotionalism is makes a mockery of the God who created us as intelligent beings.
From there Paul gave the Corinthians instructions about true tongues (note that it is plural, because it was a variety of foreign languages unlike the singular use of the Greek term for the pagan practice). The interpretation of the tongue meant translate it that the entire congregation could be edified. The gift of interpretation was also a confirmatory gift as I noted in my post. The point about Greek was a reference to the used language of the day.
Now today we believers do speak with new tongues because the Gospel has spread around the world. We do not speak with the gift of tongues but God's people are recognized no longer as the Hebrews but as the church - every tribe, nation, tongue and people!
Concerning the gifts of wisdom and knowledge, these were gifts used by God to establish the structural foundation of the church. Remember, they had no precedent, they had no seminaries, and they were just getting a letter now and then from an Apostle. So God imparted knowledge (which had been before unknown because the church was a mystery) and wisdom (how to practically apply that knowledge since they had no training). Today our wisdom and knowledge sufficiently comes from the completed canon of Scripture.
This is solid - thanks for this. Perhaps you are aware of this, but a good resource for your library on this is Thomas R. Edgar's "Satisfied by the Promise of the Spirit"? It is a very good presentation of the temporal sign gifts.
Mike
The Armoury
Jerry said, Jason you certainly can contort Paul's words in the first few verses of 1 Cor. 14 if you desire,how about the words of Christ in Mark 16:15-20? I realize some feel these verses should not be included in the Bible but they are still part of the canon.
Yes, I agree the Church at cornith was placing undue emphasis on the gift of tongues but to read what you just read into Paul's clear words as he explains to the believers concerning tongues is probablly as off-the-wall as your tongues being the Greek language, in the Book of Acts 2:4 it is the Spirit that gives the utterance, this doesn't come out of the mind but out of the Spirit. Men from every nation under the sun had gathered in Jerusalem, they are the ones who heard those who were in the upper room, did they only hear them in Greek? "We each hear them in our own language to which we were born" not just Greek.
If tongues was just the Greek language as you claim, then why did Paul not say I speak in _Greek more than you all, or I pray in Greek and I sing in Greek, instead of saying tongues. Why didn't he say "do not forbide to speak in Greek" instead of tongues. Jason your pre-suppositions are killing you.
You say we are to worship with all our being, Jesus said god seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, does worship with all our being mind included equate with this?
Christ has been made into us the wisdom of God, we have the mind of Christ, pray tell all our faith robbing seminaries/cemetaries will not rob us of these precious truths.
Jerry, twisting my words and a condescending attitude will get you nowhere. The Greek tongue was just an example (note the word generally in my post.) I think your opinion of educational institutions is something that we may need to explore. But if you only want to continue in the same vein as you have started I am warning you that you will not be tolerated. This a friendly warning. I hope you join the debate with a Christlike attitude from here on.
Michael, funny you mentioned that book. As I left my office today after service I grabbed that book off my shelf and put it in my briefcase. It has been a while since I have read it, and I thought I would skim it over again this week due to the recent blog posts. BTW, your site looks great.
Bro if I've offend you I'm certainly sorry. If I've twisted your words I will certainly try not to do so again.
But please tell me how you can possibly take 1 Cor. 14:2 to be merely an illustation? Paul is simple and very clear "One who speaks in a tongue speaks to God, not to men, for no one understands." roman 8:26; speaks of those times in prayer when we don't know how to pray and the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings to deep for words," have you ever been there. working in both Japan and in 3rd world nations, I have.
As far as most Bible colleges and schools of today I hold my ground, I've spent over twenty years watching what comes out and I believe God's full intention was that the church itself is to be the training grounds for all believers (Eph. 4:11-16), the institutions we send our kids to, spots out hirelings who look for positions to fill, not ministry to the flock of God. the whole idea of titles, diaplomas, and licenses to minister was man's idea not God's!
A title- deacon, elder...Phil.1:1;1 Tim 3
A diploma- "recieve him"...Col.4:10; Phil.2:29; Philemon 1:17
A license- Matt28:18-20; 2 Cor.11:4; Gal.1:7.
Maybe the men coming out of seminaries better reflect the theological leanings and consequences of a man-centered gospel rather than the goodness and rightness of such institutions. Let us not throw away what is good for criticisms and want. Rather, lets love the means God has given us to train up harvesters, and do what we need to correct those means where man intervenes.
addendum to above comment
"better eflect he theological leanings of your generation"
"As far as most Bible colleges and schools of today I hold my ground, I've spent over twenty years watching what comes out and I believe God's full intention was that the church itself is to be the training grounds for all believers (Eph. 4:11-16), the institutions we send our kids to, spots out hirelings who look for positions to fill, not ministry to the flock of God. the whole idea of titles, diaplomas, and licenses to minister was man's idea not God's!"
While I agree with this basically, and do feel that churches need to focus more on equipping the saints in thier local bodies and raising men up from amognst them, I can find no biblical precedent for castigating sending those men to a seminary to get further training perhaps beyond what the local body can do in areas such as languages and such.
First of all, speaking of title, spoke of elders, deacons, etc., these words are not used as nouns, but verbs these are action words, functions in the Body of Christ not slots or positions to be filled. Look at the very words of Christ in matt. 23:1-12, but especially 8-12, and ask yourself why we put titles on men, and build a separation between the s0-called clergy and again the so-called laity? Peter, Paul the others never called each other apostle but brother Paul, etc., and never refered to themselves as apostle Paul or apostle Peter, it was always Paul an apostle, Peter an apostle. Paul's favorite name for himself was either bondservant or diakonos, he saw apostle as his function in the body, if you were a military man you might call it your MOS! (Phillip and evangelist with daughters who were not prophets, but who prophesied).
If you want pure Bible the Church is the only institute (organism) in Scripture to equip the saints, Paul did rent the School of the Tyrant, but that was only like we'd rent a building for services, it was a place to disciple and send out, all of Asia was hearing the Gospel while Paul was ministering at Ephesus. I've got all the diaplomas, all the proper licenses to supposedly minister the Gospel, in Japan it seems most necessary. but quite honestly I have them stached, I don't make it an issue. I can't find a Scriptural precident for it and more important for me is a far greater revelation of the One I serve. who had you rather learn from, an ignorant, unlearned fisherman who had been with Christ, or a college proffessor with all the titles and right paperwork who has only academics on his side. I know their are so good godly teachers at these schools, but also many who can only impart head knowledge. Paul said the true wealth comes from knowing Christ Himself. That's why in 3rd world nations some who cannot even read and write yet they still do mighty works for Christ, because they have a knowledge of Him, they don't just know about Him.
Jerry,
You have made a false dichotomy between a man of faith and a man of "learned" theology and knowledge about Jesus. It is a lofty idea that only seems to be used in disparaging the institutions who prepare harvesters for the harvest field. What if five churches each had five men training disciples for the ministry. Yet, each of those teachers had different gifts. Wouldn't it be wise to join those five teachers and five gifts for the edification of the pupils? Could you count that as preparing your mind for action?
I believe you need to know more about those you disparage before lumping them into a category of those with mere head knowledge save heart for the King of Kings. Maybe you are basing your view of theological scholars from all those ABC specials.
On titles, you have changed course in charging that men are in error for calling each other by their titles, not that they posess that title. You cannot argue that Paul did not make it known that he was an Apostle, because he was made one directly by Jesus Christ, no less. I hope ou do not call your pastor, "Pastor," then.
Jerry said, "First of all, speaking of title, spoke of elders, deacons, etc., these words are not used as nouns, but verbs these are action words..."
You said this before going on your rant over the plight of today's schools of ministry. However, I think you have been found out at this point as one who has a bur and not an argument from Scripture. Maybe this is why you refuse to examine the Scriptures on the nature of gifts, apart from what you are receiving second-hand or from your own lack of study.
BTW: The words for "deacons" and "elders" in Phil. 1:1 are both dative masculine plural nouns (also 1 Tim. 3:2 and Titus 1:7). Maybe now you can engage the arguments rather than making up your own.
I agree with Bret that Dr. Thomas' book is one that must be considered rather than ignored if one is to take this matter seriously. Good thoughts Jason.
Jerry in his ranting says:,
Colinm
You have made a false dichotomy between a man of faith and a man of "learned" theology and knowledge about Jesus. It is a lofty idea that only seems to be used in disparaging the institutions who prepare harvesters for the harvest field.
(All the saints are to be equipped for the ministry, not just a few who believe they have a calling, at least that is what Paul taught; And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as teachers.” WHY? “for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, to the building up of the body of Christ.”)
What if five churches each had five men training disciples for the ministry. Yet, each of those teachers had different gifts. Wouldn't it be wise to join those five teachers and five gifts for the edification of the pupils? Could you count that as preparing your mind for action?
（Your question is best answer in Eph. 4:11, each of these ascension gifts ministries was available to the Church (singular) in Ephesus. Every member of the body was able to benefit from these gifts, each gifting has some something unique to offer the Body. Verse 8 of the same chapter says these “doma” gifts were given to men, never does Scripture say that any of these gifts were later taken back, they are still available to the church today. If the church today were like the church of Paul7s day as I believe it should be, then there would be no problem with these gifts being available to all believers within any city setting.）
I believe you need to know more about those you disparage before lumping them into a category of those with mere head knowledge save heart for the King of Kings. Maybe you are basing your view of theological scholars from all those ABC specials.
(Don’t watch your ABC specials so I have no idea of what you speak, but I do see the colleges, that have been planted here in Japan and their liberal theology, I also have observed not only with my own boys who attended Christian colleges, and from others as well. I’ll not mention the school’s name but where two of my sons attended, the graduates were busy seeking positions, looking for the best housing, the best insurance plan, the highest salary, sending resumes to many churches, looking for a job, not a ministry of service to the body of Christ).
On titles, you have changed course in charging that men are in error for calling each other by their titles, not that they possess that title. You cannot argue that Paul did not make it known that he was an Apostle, because he was made one directly by Jesus Christ, no less. I hope ou do not call your pastor, "Pastor," then.
(Surely Paul was an apostle called by Christ, but it was never Apostle Paul, it was always “Paul, an apostle” or “Paul, a bondservant” of Christ Jesus.” One of Paul’s favorite w0rds concerning himself was diakonos/minister. When Peter spoke of Oaul in 2 Pet. 3:15, he referred to him as “Dear Brother Paul” not as Apostle Paul, as those anxious for recognition do today. Peter like Paul also starts his letters like Paul, Peter an apostle, or Peter, a bond-servant and apostle, the emphasis was on bond-servant, not apostle. Peter was there in Matt. 20:25-28, when Jesus told His disciples not to copy the top heavy Roman hierarchical style of government, but that the greatest in the Kingdom would become the servant of all. Peter also didn’t miss the words of Christ in Matt. 23:8-12; when He condemned the Jewish “Positional Mind-set” “Don’t be called Rabbi, for One is your Teacher, AND YOU ARE ALL BROTHERS.” (v.9) “Don’t call anyone Father.” (v.9). DO NOT be called leaders.” You want greatest, you want rank, you must humble yourself and serve.
I won’t quote the rest of the verses, but that answers your next question, I refer to the elders, the men I labor with as brothers, because that is what they are. I refer to what some call the laity as my brothers and sisters also, according to Peter all who are in Christ, “are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” If Jesus said, don’t get hung up on title and rank, why should I get hung up in the traditions of man, and disobey Christ?)
Paul Lamey said...
Jerry said, "First of all, speaking of title, spoke of elders, deacons, etc., these words are not used as nouns, but verbs these are action words..."
You said this before going on your rant over the plight of today's schools of ministry. However, I think you have been found out at this point as one who has a bur and not an argument from Scripture. Maybe this is why you refuse to examine the Scriptures on the nature of gifts, apart from what you are receiving second-hand or from your own lack of study
(Sorry Paul as I continue to rant; O uneducated, unlearned one that I am! Let’s look at a couple/few verses to illustrate my point:
Rom. 11:13 the last par to the verse is translated in the KJ as “I magnify my office.” In the NASB “I magnify my ministry”. The Greek word here is “diakonia” which means to service or ministry; the lesser meaning would deal with office. Speaks of serving not lording over, In fact as I mentioned earier one of Paul’s favorite words to describe him self was diakonos, a servant.
Rom. 12::4; King States all the member of the body they do not all have the same “office” the Greek word here is “praxis” which means “an act, a function” it is interesting that the King James uses the term office because it does not appear in the Greek sentences in conjunction with elder and deacon because the Greek uses the verb form bishoping (overseeing), and deaconing (serving) denoting function rather than position or office. See also 1 Tim. 3:1 as well as 10.)
Jerry gets the Abanes award for longest comment. Congrats, and this month your award also comes with a free B.S. Diploma from the School of Unintelligable Speech. :) Just a little humor friend. You seem quite worked up. Listen the truth is I am having trouble following your comments/ranting. If you have something to say about the post just say it. Pithiness is goood.
LAST ONE DUDE< YOUR 44 is to much to handle, plus I enjoy writting sorry it's to deep for you!
ARE THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR TODAY?
There are those who say that the gifts were for the Early church era only. They base this on 1 Cor. 13:8-10 which says that tongues and prophecy will cease when “that which is perfect shall come.” They assert that the ‘perfect’ is the New Testament. This is done with no spiritual support for their argument.
If the New Testament writings are such a significant item, why then is it that Jesus left no instructions concerning its completion or compilation? Why did none of the apostles or early church leading ministries work specifically towards this goal? Because neither the New Testament or the complete Bible is what 1 Cor. 13 was referring to.
“That which is perfect.” The word ‘perfect’ is translated from the Greek word telios which means mature, complete, of full age. Both Jesus and Paul used this word to give us some direction: Jesus said “Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). He also said “The disciple is not greater than his master, nor the servant than his Lord; it is enough for the disciple to be like his master” (Matt. 10:48).
The church is to develop to a perfect man (teleios) man, to the knowledge (Greek: epignoisis) of the full stature of Christ” (Eph. 4:13). This is BECOMING LIKE HIM. This word knowledge does not mean intellectual information (Greek gnois). “Epignosis” means the reality, the full-on experience, the actualization, the transformation of us mere mortals into the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29).
“For of His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace” (Jn. 1:16)
“For In Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. And in Him you have been made complete, and He is the Head of all rule and authority.” (Col. 2:9-10).
The Body of Christ, the Church (the one Jesus said, “He would build” not the one we’ve built for Him) was always the focus of Jesus and the apostles. The wisdom of God will be shown to the world by the Church, not by the New Testament. If we are part of the Boby of Christ, growing in teleios, we will be a part of the Eph. 4:13 “perfect man.” Perhaps then, the gifts will cease, but only when the Great commission is deemed by God to have been completed. WHY? Because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are our power tools for evangelism.
Ahh Jerry, the depths. Murky indeed. Listen friend, you nearly answered your own question. You rightly know that the word telios means "mature" and "complete." Thus when the foundation of the church was complete the revelatory and confirmatory gifts are no longer needed. God's revelation is complete. Note John's warning in Revelation (which extends from the first century through the church age into eternity) that no new revelation should be added. Thus all new revelations ceased as did their confirmations. And yes, the gifts of communication, teaching, evangelism, etc. have not ceased and nobody has claimed that they have. These gifts continue that the Great Commission may be filled. And you point about the canon of Scripture is just historically inaccurate. I may post on that later. 99,44/100% OUT.
Sorry Jason I said I’d stop, but this is fun. I agree the foundation is complete in Christ, and if that is true then everything we build on should then be based on what He taught? So if Jesus said believers will speak with new tongues, then that is what believers should do, would you agree or disagree? If you disagree then aside from 1 Cor. 13:10 which looks ahead to the Church reaching the full stature (the perfection) of Christ, to which we have not yet attained, why should I accept your rather lame argument that tongues have ceased? If tongues and prophecy have ceased. That also means knowledge has ceased, and if we assert that then how do we deal with 1 Cor. 12:28; would not all these gifts to the body also have to already have ceased? You say apostles have ceased, prophecy has ceased, so miracles have they all ceased, do teachers who impart knowledge also vanish away, administrators have they ceased?
I did not say the canon of Scripture was historically inaccurate, I said, if it were such an issue why didn’t Jesus or the apostles make an issue of it? The directive of Christ to His disciples was never build the church; He said He would do that. But He did tell them to preach the Kingdom and heal the sick (Lk. 9:2), as we see their obedience in the books of Acts; we also find out that it was Jesus who added to the church daily. Yet nowhere did He direct them to put His words in print and publish it, so their perfection would be in the Scriptures and not in Him. You say the canon of Scripture is that which is perfect, the use of the word perfect in the Scriptures I Posted earlier clearly points to the Body growing up into the Head, or coming into the full stature of Christ, is what Paul is looking ahead to. (I love the Scriptures, I daily read and meditate in the word of God, I believe the Canon was directed by the Spirit but it is not what Paul was speaking of in 1 Cor. 13:10).
Quote from “Renewal Theology” by J. Rodman Williams. “The intention of the sanctification of the whole person is renewal in the likeness of God. Let us recall Paul’s words a bout “the new nature which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of it’s creator” (Col. 3:10).
Rodman also speaks of 1 Cor. 13:10; “the perfect refers to the perfection of the glory to come, for Paul shortly added, “Now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face” (v. 12) When we are with the Majestic Glory, tongues, prophecy, knowledge, indeed all the charismata, will fall away, for they belong to the present age, and will be utterly transcended in the vision of God. So that is the glory (perfection) to come.” Paul ends with “But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love”. Then Paul starts chapter 14, “Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophecy.”
Jason my brother, I believe you are my brother, I am with you there is far too much abuse in the Pentecostal and charismatic movements. I am not into all the hype and glitter, Yet in spite of all the junk that takes place Jesus is building His church, and the gates of hell will definitely not prevail against it. I do not by any means doubt that those very gates might very well be between our ears. As my favorite possum once said; “I’ve met the enemy and he is us.”
Jason we’ll probably not come to terms on these issues, but I agree they must be put on the table and openly discussed, it is far to easy to fight over these issues, and see others as our enemy when they disagree. You’re my brother, I believe that, as a brother I love you, but openly I disagree with your stance. Blessings from Japan!
Jason,
I read a little about Jerry's understanding of the church on his own blog...sounds a lot like Harold Camping. I think you're wasting your time with this guy.
I would like to know his perspective on verses like Hebrews 13:17. It appears that his hyper-individualism is driving his hermeneutical engine which is coloring his view of Scripture to his favor. And yes, I think such a hyper-individualistic view of body-life is a great threat to the church.
As I pointed out earlier, he made the claim that all references to "pastor/elders" or "deacons" are verbs (I think he did this to claim that there is no leadership in the church today apart from the individual). When shown that this is not always the case he went on another rant without seeing his own fallacious style of argumentation or correcting his blatant error. His posts look like a dog who is chasing his own tail.
It is interesting that Jerry wants to keep trying to prove his position. I wish he would give us a reason why one would have to speak in tongues (not languages) as so many of my charismatic friends do. I love them very much and they sometimes give me a hard time or kid me because I do not speak in tongues. I want to know why the charismatic always tell me they will show me how to speak in tongues or they have books on this subject that they will lend to me.
I do not speak in tongues but does that make me a lesser believer?
I do not think so and what good would it do me to speak in tongues myself today other than to edify myself or say that I have arrived at the higher plain of christianity? We are to edify Christ and the Church!
Again, I do not believe I have missed a thing because I have not spoken in tongues. Jesus did not speak in tongues and He said in Matthew, "do not babble like the pagans".
Tongues have divided many churches, but all we need is Jesus and the Word of God.
God bless you folks. I love you because Christ first love us.
Regards always,
Steve
Steve, I maybe you can help me understand something. If tongues is a miraculous gift then how would your friends teach you to speak them? Wouldn't that be something the Spirit would lead you to do miraculously?
Scott, how does speaking in tongues helps the church? Were not spiritual gifts given to each of us to help the entire church?
Does it matter or not if we speak in tongues? Does it make you a better christian or an elitist if you speak in tongues and I do not speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit gives the gifts as he wishes, not as I or you wish.
Rant, Rant, Paul old buddy at least I have a tail to chase, it might appear you've bitten yours off.
If Jesus say beleivers will speak with new tongues, is that enough reason?
ZZZZZZZZZ...Oh did someone say something?
Jerry, Seriously you're making little sense. If you keep ranting it's possible you might say something right and edifying for a change for even a broken clock is right twice a day.
It all depends on whose clock it is that's broken. No offense ranting is fun, even Paul ranted, "I speak as if insane."
Here's a thought. I believe that the NT is meant, partially at least, to clarify the OT in such a way that there is no valid teaching in the NT that can not be found in the OT. I have not combed my Bible through today, so be kind if I am wrong. I don't see special gifts being offered in the Bible unless it is a time when God was revealing a major facet of His plan of salvation.
Moses had the plagues and other miracles leading up to the receiving of the Law. Elijah was confronted with a wicked Israel desperately in need of correction. What is the addition/correction in today's church that I am missing?
Doug, you are right. There were special times in history that God used special miraculous gifts and other times that those gifts would not be used because it would be unnecessary.
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