Conversations with Betty
Betty Talks with Her Daughter, Ellen DeGeneres

In this second part of a two-part interview, Ellen DeGeneres talks with her mother, Betty, about coming out as a lifelong healing process, her recent appearance as host of the Emmy Awards and her desire to be a parent. In part one, Ellen and Betty discussed coming out as a spiritual journey, offered suggestions to other parents of gays and lesbians and reflected on their own relationship.

The star of "The Ellen Show", Ellen DeGeneres in 1997 became the first person to come out while starring in a television series. Betty DeGeneres, the author of Love, Ellen: A Mother/Daughter Journey (William Morrow & Co., 1999) and Just a Mom (Advocate Books, 2000), is one of the most outspoken supporters of GLBT families and a monthly columnist on HRC FamilyNet.

Betty DeGeneres: Do you have memories of feeling different when you were growing up?

Ellen DeGeneres: No, it was so completely hidden in me. And it's not like I hated guys. I had boyfriends. I liked guys.

Betty: You didn't have a clue that you were gay?

Ellen: Not at that time. But I have friends who felt completely different and were aware that they were gay from the time they were really young. I never felt different then. I felt different but not for that reason.

Betty: So you were spared a lot of what kids go through in high school, especially where you finished high school.

Ellen: Yeah, that would have been horrible to have been [openly gay] in Atlanta, Texas. But I wasn't trying to hide it. I just had no idea. I was spared. I was very lucky.

Coming Out as a Lifelong Healing Process

Betty: Do you think coming out is a lifelong process? I'd say it is for people [who aren't public figures]. But people see you and everyone knows Ellen is gay.

Ellen: But I think what that question means is there is a constant coming out to people and being yourself because, to me, coming out is not hiding and being proud. The healing process is lifelong. It's like anything in your childhood. If you had a screwed up childhood, whether it's something to do with family or something that happened to you at school, it's a constant healing process to get rid of that shame. I still deal with old wounds and old stuff that I didn't feel good about. It's a constant challenge.

Betty: If you could say anything to someone in their teens who is questioning their sexuality, what would you say?

Ellen: I don't know how to answer that because if you're questioning your sexuality, are you being influenced just to rebel and say, "Maybe I'm not straight but am attracted to the same sex"? I would question, are you really attracted to that and do you feel something, or are you just acting out?

I think that it's very confusing to me and this will probably get me in a lot of trouble. But when you say, "I'm open to whatever and it's the person," I do agree, it's the person. But I don't understand it. Maybe it is OK to one day love a man and one day love a woman. But for me, I clearly know who I am, and I know I'm attracted to women. I know that. And I think for teen-agers, it can be dangerous because they think there's nothing wrong with it. And maybe there isn't anything wrong with it when you're young and trying to figure out and think that [dating both sexes] is the same thing as dating a bunch of different guys or girls. But I think you don't know who you are anyway until you're getting older in life and start figuring out who you are. When you're young, a teen-ager, and don't know who you are, you can kind of get lost in that. I think, if you're defining yourself by, "Am I gay? Am I straight?" that shouldn't define you. You should define yourself and if you know who you are a little bit more, it might make it easier to know who you're attracted to.

Betty: That makes sense.

Ellen: But I think a lot of people do that. They think, "I'll find out who I am when dating other people." But dating other people isn't going to let you know who you are. You have to know who you are, and then the filter process will be a lot clearer of who you want in your life, much less in your bed.

Betty: It's like trying to complete yourself in a relationship, and you can't do that. You have to be complete.

Ellen: Yes.

Ellen's Recent Appearance as Host of the Emmy Awards

Betty: Well, your recent appearance as host of the Emmys was absolutely triumphant (and I'm not saying that, my people are) and proved that your humor appeals to everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. What did your selection and the acclaim that followed say to you about how far the entertainment industry and the public have come in accepting openly gay and lesbian entertainers?

Ellen: When they called me, I thought that was huge. It's one thing to get back on the air and get a show because "Will and Grace" was on the air. But it's another thing to be asked to host the Emmys. I thought that was a huge step. That felt really good.

Betty: So you feel like the industry and the public have come pretty far in accepting openly gay entertainers?

Ellen: Oh, absolutely. I think we're in a completely different place now than when I first came out in '97. It's a different landscape on television. I don't think there's complete acceptance. I think you can look at the statistics on hate crimes and everything that's going on in high school and the letters you get every single week and see how hard it is. We wouldn't even have to discuss this otherwise. But I think definitely we've come a long way.

Betty: But despite your success and shows like "Will and Grace," many actors are still closeted. Are you optimistic that more will follow in your footsteps?

Ellen: I don't know that I think about it that much to be optimistic or not. When I first came out, I put a lot of hope into it because it would help me. But there's power in numbers, obviously. And it would certainly make a huge difference, especially to all these teen-agers that need the representatives out there in every field, not just television, but need the CEOs and doctors and lawyers and all people to show that we're everywhere. So I think it would be a lovely thing. But I don't think about it that much to be optimistic.

Betty: But it would be nice.

Ellen: Yeah, it would be a really powerful thing. Can you imagine if everybody came out? It would be huge. Huge. But it really is an individual thing. It's a process of letting go of fear. And no matter what people say, it really is. And it's not a privacy issue because you can still be private and say that you're heterosexual and assume a private life and keep your personal life private. It's more about fear and fear of judgment and fear of finances and that's a reality for some people.

I can't take that away from them, especially if you're a teacher at a school in a small town and you can't come out or you'll lose your job. I understand that and that's a horrible thing. So you can't judge somebody for not coming out if they have a family to take care of. But that's why people that are able to - I mean, I could have justified that I couldn't come out because I was going to lose my show. I could have justified that it would be good for me not to come out because I would lose commercial offers, which I did. I lost all kinds of endorsements. I lost things I was offered on a daily basis that now I don't get offered anymore. But I did it. And life does go on. And you find something else. Sometimes it leads you on a different path, and you think it's not as good as the path you were on. If you're doing something for the right reasons, if you're following your truth and if you're being the best person you can be, I have to believe that something else will present itself. And it won't be what you thought was the right way to live. Maybe it won't be all the things you imagined. But if you're coming from the right place, I don't think you're punished for that.

Betty: Very, very good point. And of course it goes without saying that you don't regret coming out.

Ellen: No, I don't regret anything. I like who I am.

Betty: I like who you are.

Ellen: Thank you.

Becoming a Parent

Betty: Let's end up talking about gay couples with kids. It's happening more and more and more. But you don't have that many gay friends who have children.

Ellen: No, I don't.

Betty: But the ones you know - well, have you seen Melissa's children lately? [Singer Melissa Etheridge has two children.]

Ellen: No, I haven't. Melissa's been on tour. But you know, Kathy Najimy has a little girl. She's married. She has a husband. But they raise their child very much to understand, and she has a lot of friends who have two moms and two dads. So I think it's great that there are more kids who are growing up so they're not the only ones. But still it's not probably happening in Alabama or Tennessee.

But it'll be interesting because I hope to do it. I hope to have at least one child if not more, and I will try to figure out the best way to do that because it's a challenge to be a parent and not screw somebody up - to have that responsibility, to have a living being, to not squelch their spirit and allow them to soar and find out who they are without telling them who they are.

That's my biggest fear. I want my kid to be whatever my kid wants to be, and that's really letting go of control and that will be my challenge and also not to be overprotective, that fear of you're going to fall and hurt yourself.

Betty: Yes, we know about that, don't we? Being overprotective.

Ellen: Yes. You try to do it different than how you were raised. And I was raised with a lot of fear, and I don't want to raise my kid with fear. You also have to know that, on some level, the kid is going to have a hard time at school, no matter where they are, because it's hard to be different growing up. It was hard for me to be a Christian Scientist and be the only one not getting a vaccination. I felt left out. So it doesn't matter. It's all relative for a kid - that you're just different is hard. I give a lot of credit to people who have children and enter that.

Betty: Yeah, they're the pioneers.

Ellen: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Betty: But it's interesting because there are more and more of them and as these children in these families grow up and have their own families, then their moms or their dads will be grandparents and it will be very wonderful.

Ellen: It will because we're not so highly visible. You always think of the family unit being this heterosexual unit. The grandparents are the grandma and the grandpa. And you don't really see too many older gays and lesbians anyway, much less in the family unit where the grandparents are two grandmothers or two grandfathers. And it will be interesting to start shifting that and understanding what family is.

Betty: Which is?

Ellen: Which is support and love, and it doesn't matter what form it takes. It's just a group of people in family. You know, a lot of people have lost both parents. So what does that mean? They don't have a family? Their family has probably become their partners or their friends.

Betty: Just create your own loving circle.

Ellen: Yeah.

Betty: I totally agree. Thank you, Ellen.

Ellen: Well, thank you, Betty. It was lovely speaking with you.

Betty: It's been just delightful. We'll do it again.