Friday, 15 June 2007

You Can't Help Who You Fall in Love With

I’m used to being sent fun little pieces of gossip – scraps about authors or publishers behaving badly. Thoughts on why review sites favor one publisher over another, or bloggers who suck up to some people and trash others. This morning I woke up to a piece of information that wasn’t fun. Something that if handled wrong could really hurt the people who were involved. I can’t reveal my source – I’m not even certain the person is real, or a made-up name. I have no idea what their motives are for bringing this piece of information into the light, but I think we can infer that they are no friend of Tina.

…yes – Tina Engler aka Jaid Black. Below is the information I received, and Tina’s response to it. I’ll let y’all make up your own minds, but before you do, I urge you to go back and read the title of this post again.


Those of us who keep up with Tina’s blog, website, and various interviews in the media know that she is currently happily married to a man named David. What most of you don’t know is that David is currently spending his life in prison for first degree murder. When he was in his early twenties, he shot his ex-girlfriend and was convicted of her murder in the state of Florida.

Tina met David while she was researching One Dark Night. She was touched by his story and started communicating with him. Three years later they were married in a prison ceremony. It’s not the most traditional of marriages for obvious reasons, but they love each other, and David is there for Tina emotionally, if not physically. They both admit that what David did all those years ago was horrible and that he should be punished. He still has nightmares.

What you may not know about Tina is that since her early twenties, she has been a very vocal activist for prisoners’ rights and prison reform. Her face is well known in protest marches against the death penalty, as well as working to better the living conditions of prisoners, and to work to make the punishment fit the crime. She started this work well before she met David, and continues it still, on behalf of her husband and the many other prisoners who need her help.

After chatting to Tina today, I thought it might be nice if y’all could see a more serious side of the woman who we know better as Jaid Black, author of steamy hot romance, and founder of Ellora’s Cave Publishing. Here’s what Tina had to say:

Q – First let me say thanks for taking the time to chat with me. I’m sure it was a shock to learn that your personal life was about to become news. Did you expect that people would try to use your husband’s imprisonment to make you out as a bad person?

A – Honestly, yes, I did expect that this would happen one day. The “anonymous” emailer was probably banking on the hope that I’d be concerned if people found out. (Sorry, but I’m not.) I mean, my husband’s incarceration isn’t something I go shouting from the rooftops, but neither is it a secret. If it was, trust me, she wouldn’t have known to begin with.

People who know me know that my life is pretty much an open book. There aren’t any skeletons in my closet simply because I’m not ashamed of anything that’s a part of me or my life, including my husband. On the contrary, I’m quite proud of him. I’m not proud of what he did 13+ years ago at the age of 23, but I’m terrifically proud of the man he has become since that awful night.

Q – Please tell us about the work you do as an activist for prisoners’ rights. What should Joe and Jane Public know about these people that would give us the same sort of sympathy that you obviously have?

A – When I was younger, the work I did was a lot more in your face simply because I had a lot more energy to be in your face with back then. I attended anti-death penalty rallies and marched against police brutality in the African-American community. I was very active in NOW and participated in NAACP issues as well. These days a lack of time and Fibromyalgia have constricted my work to harassing elected officials and raising public awareness of prisoners’ issues in whatever way I can.

In terms of what the public should be made aware of so they understand why I feel so strongly about prisoners’ rights... damn, I truly don’t know where to begin here, Jaynie. There are so many intricacies and layers inherent to the increasing problems of the American Justice System that anything short of a doctoral dissertation won’t be enough. But since I have the attention span of a gnat, I’ll have to assume that there are other readers out there like me with similar attention spans and keep this as brief as possible.

First, it’s imperative to consider what happens to arrested young men before they are sentenced and become prisoners to begin with. If they are wealthy or come from a connected family, there is one set of rules. For everybody else—the vast majority of those arrested—there is the process I’m about to describe.

At the time the crime is committed, the male is typically aged 18-25, too poor to retain private counsel, and black. (My husband was poor and white.) Many possess very low IQs and/or are clearly mentally ill. The accused is typically severely depressed at the time of his arrest, and particularly in one-time crimes where violence is involved, suicidal. During this phase they often don’t care about their own fates and wish they were the dead ones instead of the victim—a normal feeling given what they did and one that resurfaces over and over again throughout their lives. The reason for this extreme guilt and self-hatred is because there tends to be a true remorse amongst these men, a feeling of, “This has to be a dream. I couldn’t have done this, I would never have done this.”

That’s why I think that, in my non-scientific opinion of course, this group of men has the lowest recidivism rate of any group of criminals—because of that extreme guilt and remorse. If released, they are the least likely group of men to wind up back in prison. (Recall we’re talking about one-time killers here, not serial killers. They are a different breed altogether and one I don’t believe we—as of yet—have the technology to help.)

So here is the accused—young, poor, uneducated, morbidly depressed and suicidal—and he’s given a public defender who, if lucky, speaks to him for 20 minutes to an hour before representing him at a trial that will determine his fate forever. (For all the hyperbole one hears about men allegedly getting out on appeal, this happens very, very rarely.)

On the other side, representing the state, is a damn good, seasoned lawyer with his/her eye on bigger and better things. They want to be judges, politicians, or well-paid private attorneys. The glory they seek can come only from knowing how to play the game and by playing it well. Just like on a sports team, wins inflate your reputation and bring financial rewards, while losses get you demoted and/or cause you to fade into obscurity. I don’t think most people enter law school with jaded agendas, but somewhere along the line something does seem to happen to many of them. (Hence all the lawyer jokes, no doubt.)

At any rate, because the state’s lawyer is seen as the wo/man standing up for the victim, they come into the trial with a huge advantage. We tend to automatically, almost robotically, perceive them as the good guys because they are mentally associated with the victim, whether or not they really give a hang about the victim at all. I have seen transcripts where a lawyer’s sidebar comments just appall me for their indication that the victim is no more than a means to an end for them, just another opportunity to secure a win for their track record.

And so the circus begins. There’s a ton of emotion running on both sides of the coin. The victim’s family is beyond consolation and is grieving for their loved one who was unfairly and prematurely taken from them. The defendant’s family is equally distressed because they grieve for the victim and for the son they’re about to lose forever. The accused is still enveloped in a stupor that is interrupted only by pangs of grief for the victim and a desire to find a way to, unrealistic though it is, make amends and undo what they’ve done. The jurors usually feel awful for all involved and want to do the fair thing, but often aren’t given all the information needed to make a fair judgment.

Now comes the jury selection wherein it’s decided which potential jurors will stay and which will go. In a country where defendants have an alleged constitutional right to be tried by a jury of their peers, the first jurors excused from duty are the ones most likely to empathize with the defendant. In other words, the people who are the defendant’s closest peers. Black jurors are often excused in cases where the defendants are black because white lawyers assume that blacks will “stick together”. Veterans will be excused from the jury pool if the defendant is also ex-military. (And so on and so on.)

Once the jury is selected, the trial can begin. The state’s lawyer is typically well-prepared and ready for a win. The accused man’s public defender is usually overwhelmed, an underachiever and/or lacking in experience. Because so little time is spent with each defendant, and because their caseloads are so heavy, the public defender doesn’t get to know the defendant and all the variables leading up to the crime in the way that a privately hired attorney would. As a result, they don’t know a lot of background info and forget much of what they did learn. They often times fail to have hearsay struck down when appropriate and fail to introduce crucial evidence that, in many instances, would result in much lower sentences. (Both are true of my husband’s sentence with the latter being the reason his new lawyer is trying to secure him a new trial.)

Amongst all this, where you commit a crime is probably more important than what you actually did, at least from a cold perspective. Florida (my husband’s state) and Texas are notorious for giving loooong sentences. In Florida, for instance, you can be found guilty of first degree (premeditated) murder if you had even a second to think about what you are doing. I don’t know too many people who can make calculated decisions in a single second, let alone premeditate a murder, but I digress…

The jury believes they have heard all the facts of the case when often they have not. They rule, the accused becomes the convicted, and the man is quickly buried in a judicial system that cares nothing about him.

Off to prison he goes. He has no voice, cannot vote, is locked in a cage and stripped of all human rights and dignity forever. He will be given substandard, third-world medical care by unqualified “physicians” who often times aren’t even legitimate doctors and/or do not speak the convicted prisoner’s native English tongue, making communication all but impossible. His meals are as substandard as his medical care, the fruits and vegetables often rotted. Because sexual offenders are not separated from non-sexual offenders, rape is everywhere and only the toughest survive. AIDs, Hepatitis C and Staph infections run rampant. Air conditioning is not provided even though so many bodies are confined together in small, cramped spaces. In places like Florida, summer can be tough to survive.

At first his family and friends come to see him, but over the years the visits lessen and the prisoner becomes utterly alone. His family still loves him, but life has a way of going on. Parents age and die, siblings get married and have their own lives to lead. Sometimes seeing your baby, your son, is just too damn painful. You want to help him, but there is nothing you can do so you avoid him out of self-preservation. When you do visit him, you will wait in lines up to 4 hours long in sweltering hot conditions just to get in. As you age, this becomes harder on you and potentially life-threatening so you find yourself taking fewer chances with it. On the sparse occasions you do endure it, you will be bodily searched, treated like a pariah, and insulted by guards on power trips.

It doesn’t take the inmate but a week or two to realize that the government could care less about rehabilitating him, or about putting him in a position to be a productive member of society one day who might—just might—be able to keep other kids from following in his path. It takes roughly one to five years to come to the ultimate realization: You are never getting out.

The government and big business make a lot of money off legalized human trafficking—a very scary reality. It costs approximately $27,000 USD per year to house, feed and clothe an inmate in Florida and produces a profit of over $100,000 USD per inmate per year for the state. (FYI: this info is readily available on the FL Dept of Corrections website.)

Prisons create jobs and provide cheap labor. Crime is the #1 scare tactic a politician uses to win an election. Sentences are getting longer (over 11% of the inmate population are “lifers”) and 1 out of every 15 Americans will be incarcerated in their lifetime. (This statistic can be found on the Justice Department’s website.)

And so when you—when I—look at the bigger picture rather than just at one piece of the jigsaw puzzle, you see that there is much more to the prison experience than meets the eye. It’s easy to demonize these men, to condemn them and throw away the key, because we don’t have to see them or get to know them for their beauty as much as their flaws. In other words, we never have to realize that they are just like you and me. So long as society is placated in this way, the government will never feel obligated to bring about true societal change and remedy the things that could stop crimes from happening in the first place (i.e. gun control, poverty, cracking down on alcohol consumption amongst teens, teaching kids and young adults how to handle their emotions, etc.)

Q – If any of the readers here would like to do something to help change things for the better. How do they get involved in prison reform? Who do they contact?

A - The best thing a person can do is VOTE. And make sure the politicians you are voting for know exactly why you are voting for them.

Another thing is saying no to apathy. If you hear about a human rights abuse in a prison, get angry and get loud about it. Write your representatives, governor and senators. Blog about it. Do everything but ignore it. Remember that these men are people, not the frothing-mouthed psychos they are often portrayed as in the media. All of us, with no exceptions, make hideous mistakes. Unfortunately, some of us also make tragic ones.

The next best thing a concerned person can do is educate themselves and others on the issues. It’s very easy to live in “The Matrix” and very unsettling to think about unpleasant things, but I strongly recommend that you do so. Someone once said that you can judge a society by how the least among you are treated in it. In every case of genocide I can historically recall, overzealous government looking for easy scapegoats has always been at the root of what eventually culminates into disaster.


Q – What about your own husband – is it going to be possible to have him home with you at any stage in the near future, or do you think his life sentence will stand?

A – I truly don’t know, Jaynie. My husband and I both strongly feel that, accident or not, mistake or no mistake, he deserved to be punished for what he did. For us, that isn’t the issue. The issue for me as a wife and as an activist is this: Does a man deserve to spend the rest of his life alone and neglected, starved for human affection and attention, because of a deed he committed many, many years ago as a young, immature man? My detractors will of course scream yes (what else do you expect?), but other than those people who have a personal grudge against me I would defy anyone to meet my husband, to get to know him as a person, and tell me he needs to be locked away forever. For the victim he will always grieve—and I will always grieve. But there also comes a point when further punishment serves no value to the person or to the aggrieved. My husband could honor her memory a lot better out here helping kids find their way, a positive way, rather than rotting in prison.

Some people will say that because the victim doesn’t get a second chance, the prisoner shouldn’t either. I’ve never really understood this logic because multiplication (mathematics) is the only “for instance” in the history of life where two negatives end up making a positive. Otherwise, you pretty much get goodness by giving it and are shown forgiveness when you’re capable of forgiving someone who asks for it.

But, that said, winning an appeal is much more difficult than urban legend allows. A person’s chances of receiving a fair sentence are much greater if they are competently represented at the initial trial rather than trying to win on appeal later. And parole is a joke. If the inmate goes to the parole board with a flawless record for good behavior, he’s told he learned to manipulate the system. If he goes before them and has even a single blemish on his record, he’s told he didn’t learn his lesson. They don’t want these men to have another chance—there’s too much money to be made there. So the ones they do let out are the ones they know will be coming back anyway because they have impulses that can’t be stopped—rapists, child molesters, drug addicts, etc.

Q – You mentioned on your blog recently your disgust about an author who chose her husband over her daughter, after he abused the girl. Some people are going to wonder how your own daughters are impacted by having a convicted murderer as a step-father. What would you say to that?

A – First off, I didn’t name the author or give any identifying characteristics, which I want to be clear about. I don’t air people’s dirty laundry in public… and I would never make this child’s life even more difficult by outing her. Her mom did enough damage when she decided to take the husband’s side and cast her off. I wouldn’t have cared if the girl was lying… the rule of the jungle is a mama bear always protects her cubs. But I digress yet again…

I’m not sure how my statement ended up causing such a ruckus because it wasn’t the focus of my rant. As often happens, the moral of the story was glossed over and the example of the problem I was ranting about was given more thought than the problem itself.

As far as my own kids go, I think comparing a sex crime to a non-sexual crime is like night and day. In other words, research has pretty much shown that sex offenders cannot be helped or changed, at least not with current technology. A person who takes a life without sexual motivation, however, doesn’t tend to repeat their crime when released. As I indicated earlier, research shows that these men are the least likely to commit another crime. And I do think it’s because they feel true, deeply seated remorse.

My kids love their dad—my husband—beyond reason. In fact, when they overheard me on the phone talking about doing this interview in light of the emails being sent around (I didn’t know they were eavesdropping), both of them became extremely upset and were crying. They didn’t like that [delete b****’s name] was talking trash about their precious daddy :-) To them, he is their hero. As it should be. They know what he is in prison for, they hate the sin he committed, but love the sinner who committed it. They realize that what he did doesn’t define who he is. Too often people tend to assume that because a person did something to warrant being in prison that everything they say, do, think and feel from that point forward is evil. I’m proud that my kids don’t think like that. I’m proud that I’ve raised two pacifists who believe they are worthy of forgiveness and love and loyalty because they freely give it to others.

Q – Both Ellora’s Cave and yourself personally, have taken a lot of flack recently about various things. Why do you think that’s happening?

A – Success breeds contempt and, regardless of how people try and spin doctor things, EC is still the biggest, most formidable kid on the e-block. Certain individuals don’t like that. Certain narcissistic individuals resent the hell out of it. I make for an easy target because I don’t get online and use people, pretending to be their best friend, to further my own agenda. I’m not one of those types who think the end justifies the means… the means counts just as much. Plus I just don’t need or want all that negative energy surrounding me all the time. It might get you somewhere for a short time, but eventually it burns itself—and you—out.

Q – Thanks for chatting to me about what I’m sure is a very sensitive subject. Is there anything else you’d like to say to the blog readers?

A - Just that I thank them for reading what I had to say with an open mind. (And that if they got through the entire thing they deserve a medal for fortitude!)

Seriously, Jaynie, thank YOU. You could have taken this information and run with it, but you approached me first and gave me the opportunity to speak on a subject very important to me, my family, and countless others.

27 peeps commented:

Rebecca said...

"So long as society is placated in this way, the government will never feel obligated to bring about true societal change and remedy the things that could stop crimes from happening in the first place"

Sad, but true.

What a brave and honest interview, Tina. It's a very, very difficult issue to be clear-headed about, after all, a woman is dead - dead forever - and it is so easy to judge from the safety of our living rooms....

But I think, ultimately, everyone deserves a second chance - the opportunity to redeem themselves, and perhaps make it up to society in some way if possible.

Hope your husband gets his second chance.

Anonymous said...

Forgive me for being a chicken and posting anonymously right now - I just don't need any more drama in my life right now.

Tina - I applaud you for standing by your beliefs and your husband, no matter what ugly gossip is flying.

I understand that people are fascinated by the perceived flaws of others, especially those with some degree of fame or notoriety. But what I don't understand is why people feel they have a right to make a judgement on a relationship between two adults who knowingly (and lovingly) entered into it.

WHY IS IT ANYONE ELSE'S BUSINESS? Even if whomever brought this up did so for some purpose other than spite or intent to hurt (I have yet to come up with one)?

Tina's husband is paying the price for an action he committed. Tina married him AFTER that and KNEW the situation. They love each other and face considerable challenges in sustaining that love. More power to them!

It's not like he's abusing her, she him or either of them her children.

I personally really liked to read Tina's thoughts and story. I applaud her for not hiding or staying silent on the matter.

I read romance and write it because I believe in love, ALL SORTS OF LOVE. I have no right to tell anyone other than my characters what form that love should take.

maybe if there was more love in the world and attempts to be understanding, there would be less jealousy and nastiness.

Bonita said...

Jaynie, this was a tough day for both you and Tina. I think you both handled this with grace and dignity.

Erin the Innocent said...

I agree with Bonita. :)

Anonymous said...

Wonderful post, Jaynie. Tina is a damn pioneer. No two ways about it. That someone thinks it's cool to gossip in such hurtful ways about her, or ANYONE tells me some folks have too much damn time on their hands.

I'm glad you didn't take the low road and tell her business, without her having an opportunity to speak to it.

Kimberly said...

Sorry, I didn't mean to leave that last post anonymous. Having issues with Blogger today.
~Kimberly Kaye Terry~

Karen Scott said...

Does a man deserve to spend the rest of his life alone and neglected, starved for human affection and attention, because of a deed he committed many, many years ago as a young, immature man?

I could be one of the detractors that Jaid's talking about, but believe me, regardless of the fact that it's her, my answer would still be a resounding yes.

Also, what if the perp had raped and murdered a child whilst he was going through this sorry and unloved period? Would we excuse him because the system let him down, and because that was the only time that he raped a murdered a young child? Seriously?


If the murdered victim had been my child, my mother, my niece, my auntie, or any other blood relative, then regardless of how sorry the perp was, I'd want them to burn in hell, never mind just being in prison. As it is, I don't think the prison system punishes these people enough. But then again, if it was up to me, they'd be on bread and water, and locked in their cell for twenty three hours a day. (The one hour would be for their daily beatings).


I accept that there will be prisoners who lost their way somehow, but I'd be much happier that they be rehabilitated in prison rather than coming to my town to repent their sins.

I guess I'm kind of abnormal that way.

Jill Noelle said...

Excellent interview, Tina. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions in such a professional, intelligent way. You've done yourself, your family, and EC, proud. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Being a friend of Tina's for some time, I must say that she is one of the strongest people I know for being able to stand up and speak on these issues.

It is Tina who made me question my own contrasting beliefs regarding the death penalty and prisoner treatment.

I'm posting anonymously for fear of retribution from those that seek to harm Tina.

Casey's Pen said...

You touched on one of the issues I have with the prison system. The authorities state the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate criminals and make them useful to society. On the other hand, statistics have shown that the longer a first timer serves, the higher the chances they will become repeat offenders. Through the conditions and the element they associate with there, they often learn to be better criminals and lose a lot of the social skills that help them survive on the outside.

People need to get real and call prison what it really is or look into some major reforms before it becomes more cost effective to lock up the innocent.

I also tend to think that a life sentence or decades on death row is less humane than a swift execution. It is akin to torture and makes us as a society, in some ways, as bad as the monsters. These aren't the dark ages, people. You'd think we would learned a little bit about what works by now.

Rant over.

Casee said...

Great interview, Jaynie.

I agree you can't help who you fall in love with.

I can't imagine being in the same position.

katiebabs said...

Very amazing and informative interview.
It takes balls to talk about something like this. :)

Holly said...

Does a man deserve to spend the rest of his life alone and neglected, starved for human affection and attention, because of a deed he committed many, many years ago as a young, immature man?

I think this statement is much too broad. Are there some men who can be rehabilitated? Yes. But the majority? Nope, I don't believe that for a second.

As Karen Scott said, I wouldn't want them coming to my town to get fixed.

This is obviously a sensitive subject (and I mean that of prison reform, not Ms. Black's personal issues, because that's a whole other ball of wax) and not something I really care to debate at the moment, but from where I'm sitting, I don't think making a general statement like that is fair to anyone. It's important for us, as humans, to accept responsibility for our own actions and saying things like:

So here is the accused—young, poor, uneducated, morbidly depressed and suicidal—and he’s given a public defender who, if lucky, speaks to him for 20 minutes to an hour before representing him at a trial that will determine his fate forever.

Just sounds like a cop out to me.

However, having said that, I think it needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis. It sounds as if Ms. Black's husband is truly repentant and I'm happy to hear he has a good support system behind him. That can - and probably does - make all the difference in the world.

It seems as if she's making the best of a terrible situation and for that she should be commended. I think it shows strength and character on her part.

Just my two cents.

Anonymous said...

What Karen Scott said.

Barbara Sheridan said...

Holly, I don't know you and don't want to become an enemy of you but in this case:
So here is the accused—young, poor, uneducated, morbidly depressed and suicidal—and he’s given a public defender who, if lucky, speaks to him for 20 minutes to an hour before representing him at a trial that will determine his fate forever.

Just sounds like a cop out to me.


I have to assume you haven't been poor or found yourself or a loved one getting the very short end of a nasty stick.

Tina's life is Tina's business and while I'm sure if it had been my sister/daughter killed I'd want the person responsible to "pay" and yet I've always felt that everyone has done or has the potential to screw up in serious horrible ways.

The important thing is and always will be do they regret it? Would they truly change it if they could? Will it haunt them forever and not until they get to walk past the the locked doors and barbed wire fence?

It seems that's the case with Tina's husband and I wish them both the best while sympathizing with the victim's family.

It's definitely not a situation I'd want to be in on either side.

Many times if not most times situations need to be judged on a case by case basis but that isn't possible on a grand scale. I certainly don't have the answers on how to make that happen.

Holly said...

Barbara,
Forgive me if I misunderstood, but I wasn't referring to Tina's situation when I posted that. I was under the impression she was speaking in a general sense, not about her situation exclusively.

I don't for one second think that every wo/man who commits murder immediately feels remorse, and to state that s/he does and has gotten the short end of the stick because they were poor and represented by a public defender is a cop out.

I'm sure there are cases -as it seems to be with Tina's situation - where the guilty party is truly remorseful and understands he has to accept his licks.

But to say it's because s/he is poor, or black, or whatever, is simply a cop out (again, in the general sense).

You're wrong when you say I must have never been either poor or found myself in a certain type of situation. I've been there, on both counts. But that really has nothing to do with my statement.

I'm just of the mind that a person has to accept responsibility for his/her actions and not blame being "poor" or whatever. If you've committed a crime, you should be punished for it, no matter what your circumstances.

Does that mean I think Tina's husband should rot in prison for the rest of his life? Probably not. But as I don't know him or his situation, that's not really a call for me to make. I'm only making a more generalized statement, not a specific one towards this situation.

Ava Rose Johnson said...

It's such a hard situation, and I wish I had something clever to add but I don't.

The anonymous emailer who provided the information about Tina's husband has a problem. Don't know whether it's jealousy or bitterness or just desire to stir the shit. And I think both Jaynier and Tina dealt with it very well.

I appreciate Tina's honesty and admire your strong beliefs. I take what you said for what you said. Some people are going to read more into it than there is, and accuse you of disregarding the victim and their family. In my opinion you didn't do that. Everything was put very delicately.

I hate the death penalty, nobody should be able to take a life.
And yes, the murderer did just that, but it shouldn't be an eye for an eye. That's childish.

Bottom line: you can't judge if you don't know.

Anonymous said...

Sorry about being anonymous. I can't remember my Google login.

But I just wanted to say that I was surprised that someone was doing LWOP for one murder (even first degree) and otherwise good behavior because that usually works out to about 25 years in the states I am most aware of and (with the current crowded prison situation) it might be as low as possibility of parole at 14 years with good time.

So I looked him up on the Florida Corrections site and found he might have run into the Florida enhanced sentencing act.

Barbara Sheridan said...

I'm just of the mind that a person has to accept responsibility for his/her actions and not blame being "poor" or whatever. If you've committed a crime, you should be punished for it, no matter what your circumstances.

Holly--

I wasn't referring to Tina's particular situation either I agree with what you said directly above. above. You screw up for whatever reason you pay the price, that's the way it goes.

However, if I'm arrested for Crime X at the same time as Hypothetical Person A with ample resources and family support I don't have the outcome of the cases will probably be vastly different.

I'd even go so far as to say that HPA could commit a more serious crime and get off a lot easier courtesy their high priced attorney than I would with the inexperienced/overworked public defender who doesn't really give a damn.

Anonymous said...

I'm going to be honest here and say that this whole situation makes me sort of squimish. I can't possibly imagine marrying a convicted murderer. Certainly that view is unfair considering that I'm pro-prison reform and anti-death penalty. One the other hand, I am young, 24 and I can't imagine murdering someone, but then again I'm educated and middle class.

In response to anonymous who said "WHY IS THIS ANYONE ELSE'S BUSINESS?" It wasn't to begin with. However, once personal issues are discussed on the wide world of the internet, I think you've given up the right to say this is none of your business.

On the subject of prison reform, I agree with most of the points made. Our justice system seems to be stacked in favor of the rich. This conditions is prison don't seem to encourage rehibilition and isn't that the point?

In response to Karen Scott, I understand where you're coming from. The involvement of children complicates things. However, I don't think a compairsion can be made between rape and murder.

Jess

Laura said...

Ironically, my niece would have been 20 on Monday. I'm sure her parents would be glad to know that her murderer was simply a young man, depressed or whatever, the crime an impulse-we thought he was just an armed robber. Knowing that he didn't plan to kill her is a big comfort, especially when the anniversary always falls near or on Father's Day.
Ms. Engler, why don't you give my brother a call and explain it all to him?
Oh, sorry. Forgot.
You don't care about victims's rights, or survivors' rights. We don't get to fly the flag of the poor and disenfranchised.

CindyS said...

I'm sure that there are many men who would have been wonderful people if only they hadn't killed someone.

You are right, that person is now gone forever and there is no second chance for them. I have heard one too many times of people who have left prison earlier than they should because of good behaviour or over crowding. There are some crimes that should carry all the weight of society's outrage and yet, the sentence barely fits the crime.

As far as I know Texas and Florida have harsher sentences but at no point do I think anything under 20 years is enough for taking a persons life.

My question is how do you know someone is truly reformed and feels abject remorse? There are enough people in prison claiming their innocence when DNA has placed them at the crime.

I'm not saying that there are men in prison who do not feel remorse. I'm sure there are plenty but why do they think that they shouldn't be punished rightly for their wrong?

As a woman, I believe that true freedom is the right to my own body and personal space without violation (rape, beating, killing). I don't believe that those who become victims were looking to give this right up.

And for every 18-25 year old man/woman who has committed murder there are thousands more that didn't in the exact same situations of poverty, illness, hopelessness.

Accidents can happen and in those situations I can understand leniency. But when a choice is made (whether to take a gun somewhere, or to punch someone even if that wasn't your intent (although really, why is there a gun present?)) that winds up in someone else's death then there should be harsh consequences.

For me, if the family of the one murdered decides enough time has been served then I can absolutely respect that.

This is my opinion.

As much as I can feel empathy for inmates, I truly believe we can never lose sight of the victims. For as isolating as prison is for prisoners (as it should be) it is just the same for those who will never see their loved one again. For those who died without children or knowing true love, without seeing the look on their parents face when they present to them their first grandchild.

Who knows the kind of changes they could have brought to the world? A life cut short by violence is never okay and should be considered one of the great crimes of humanity. I don't believe that the one who committed this crime should then be allowed to do all the things their victim cannot.

CindyS

Sam said...

Great interview.
It's hard to put yourself in another person's shoes, but this article helped me see things from Tina's point of view and I admire her even more for it.

Cindy Spencer Pape said...

While everyone has their own opinion on this subject, and their own reasoning behind it, I think the point we should note is the disturbing recent trend toward trashing (writers and) publishers by broadcasting personal information in a negative manner.

That this is happening at the same time Romance Writers of America seems to be looking for excuses to discredit epublishers seems a bit more than coincidental to me.

Ms. Engler's remarks were calm, well-researched and remarkably professional given the obvious emotional impact of the subject matter. Surely that speaks more to her suitability to run a publsihing house than whether or not one agrees with her views.

Personal life is personal. Publishing is business. We should jusdge a publishing house by the product they create and by business practices. And for those who disagree, all you have to do to show that opinion is to NOT buy the books.

Robin said...

Ms. Engler's remarks were calm, well-researched and remarkably professional given the obvious emotional impact of the subject matter. Surely that speaks more to her suitability to run a publsihing house than whether or not one agrees with her views.

I think there are a couple of separate issues here that are being meshed together. 1) Engler as publisher/author, which is, or should be, completely separate from Engler as wife of a convict or self-named prison reform advocate, 2) the comments she made about the justice system, 3) the fallout, mass of anonymous postings, and comments among and between posters about the situation.

As to 1), count me among those who didn't need to know this information, and who also is curious as to why people are up in arms about those who are critical of Jaynie's/Engler's choice to run the piece. But then I also squirmed in my seat (and not in a good way) when Engler went on her own rant about the pill popping author, and I have to wonder if that stink bomb precipitated the anonymous email on Engler's situation. I don't think Engler is a villain or a heroine for her experience, her story, or her choice to tell it. I do think she and Jaynie inadvertently drew a whole boatload of attention to something that I would have expected Engler to reply to with "no one else's business" should someone else have broken the story. Someone who does not go out of her way to hide something is also not bound to defend herself in detail should someone else attack. OTOH, tossing out a live grenade as Engler did on her own blog, author in question named or not, did strike me as particularly provocative behavior, as well, similar to the anonymous sending of the info on Engler. That Engler is married to a convict is her own business, and frankly, no one really knows the situation, INCLUDING those who are championing Engler's choice and calling her a heroine. I SO don't want to think about all that when her name comes up related to EC.

As to 2), I didn't really find Engler's commentary on the criminal justice system well-researched or impartial. As someone who just completed law school, I didn't want to go into criminal law because I am uncomfortable generally with the punitive nature of the criminal system (aka I'm a bleeding heart). BUT, I've spent a good deal of time reading some of the studies and other research on various aspects of the system, and frankly, I found Engler's comments to be undermining, rather than supporting, the very causes she wants to bring to people's attention. Over-generalizations tend to make me nervous, anyway, but even more so when the topic turns to politics and law. Are there crappy public defenders? Do some poor defendants, some non-white defendants, get inequitable treatment? Of course. But there are also wonderful public defenders who work incredibly hard for their clients, and many, many dedicated people who are using their substantial skills to imbue the criminal justice system with as much fairness as possible. And there are many victims' families who believe that justice isn't being served, either -- although they are approaching the injustice from the opposite direction.

I have no opinion on Engler either way, but I do know that there were elements of her commentary on the criminal justice system that were factually wrong and statistically incomplete (and IMO misleading). Believe me when I say that it is hardly news to anyone in any area of the law that the crim justice system is beset by problems -- many of the same problems that plague education, urban development, battered women, the disabled, etc. For anyone interested, I suggest the work of Alfred Blumstein, who wrote one of the most comprehensive and influential studies of the impact of race on the prison system. Here's a sample of his work: http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9719&page;=21. I also recommend this website: http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm. These issues have been discussed, debated, researched, and fitfully addressed for many years. Harvard has quite a Criminal Justice Institute in place, as well: http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/clinical/cji/resources.htm. And I don't think it's possible to look at prison trends without addressing education, since, as Blumstein and others point out, the problems facing prisons and the racial demographics of prison populations are directly connected to other societal issues. I highly recommend two books by Jonathon Kozol: Savage Inequalities and Amazing Grace. When you start to look into the education system, for example, many of the trends in the prison system become very clear. And yet where I live (in CA), we now spend more on prisons than schools, because while people balk at having their taxes increased for public education funding, they are largely happy to spend more on prisons. I don't, by the way, think that's because most Californians are racist or against education; instead, I think the problems have become so severe people are simply looking for the short term fix, afraid of being overwhelmed by the long term problems. And I think that over-generalized arguments about the problems from all directions have discouraged people from understanding the complexity of factors involved in these problems (and thus preventing authentic and effective remedies).

Regarding 3), I don't put any more stock in those defending Engler than in those who are criticizing her. BUT, I can say, as someone who has no personal stake in this, that I actually think that some of the defenses of Engler (especially the anons) are hurting, rather than helping, boost both her case and her public image.

Holly said...

I'd even go so far as to say that HPA could commit a more serious crime and get off a lot easier courtesy their high priced attorney than I would with the inexperienced/overworked public defender who doesn't really give a damn.

Barbara,
I agree with you on this issue. I do think there have been cases where someone with less means wasn't given the advantages of someone in a wealthier position.

However, some is not ALL. And to say that every single poor person is not given fair treatment is a blanket statement - and to be crass for a moment - absolute horse shit.

Yes, there are over-worked, under-paid, burnt out public defenders out there. But there are also hardworking, dedicated wo/men who fight just as hard as highly paid attorney's. As a matter of fact, I'm sure there are some highly paid attorney's out there who could care less about their clients guilt or innocence and are only in it for the money. How is that different from an under-paid, over-worked public defender.

Once again, my comments are based on the fact that Ms. Black felt the need to generalize the situation. You can't tell me that every single person between the ages of 18-25, if they were poor or of a certain race, got a bad rap. You can't tell me their all remorseful and oh so sorry for what they did. And you'll never convince me that every single one of them should have a lighter sentence or be set free or can be rehabilitated. That's not reality.

Do I think there's corruption or issues in our justice system? Absolutely. Do I think there are things that need to be changed or "fixed"? Without a doubt. But to generalize and say that ALL of it is bad, and corrupt, isn't fair to anyone.

I don't doubt for a single second that there are innocent people who are wrongfully sent to prison, or that some of the guilty ones are truly sorry for the crime(s) they committed. But I also think a lot of prisoners are sorry they're in jail, not sorry for what they did that sent them there. And there is a difference.

And for every 18-25 year old man/woman who has committed murder there are thousands more that didn't in the exact same situations of poverty, illness, hopelessness.

Cindy,
That's an excellent point and one I'm sure not many people consider.

As humans we have the right of free will, the freedom to make choices and to suffer the consequences of said choices - whether they be good or bad. Isn't that the way it should be?

Barbara Sheridan said...

However, some is not ALL. And to say that every single poor person is not given fair treatment is a blanket statement - and to be crass for a moment - absolute horse shit.

Again you get no argument from me there, but it didn't strike me that Jaid's comments were meant to be so general as to refer to "All".