Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 04:40 PM PDT

Are copies of this being brought to DC next week for the protests?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 04:44 PM PDT

I just ordered some copies for distribution in Chicago. Judging from the sample page, it looks like pretty good material.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 04:56 PM PDT

Yes.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 05:06 PM PDT

I\'m getting a few just to counter the influence of all the damn \"Why you should be a Socialist\" signs that\'ve been posted around...

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 05:08 PM PDT

I read a bit of it on the internet...it looks like one of the best, for lack of a better term \"anarchist propoganda\" pieces the I have EVER seen...

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 05:11 PM PDT

Yes, I just perused the PDf file. This is fucking amazing work! It is SOOOO nice to see printed material that is creative and artistic and fun to read.

I suspect this may see an additional printing!

Don\'t forget: S27/S28 propaganda squads should meet at 6 pm on S26 at the ACC Welcome Center.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 08:49 PM PDT

this is amazing i just ordered some cant wait for them to get here

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 10:01 PM PDT

I\'ve taken a look at this, and WOW!
does anyone think this will become a classic? this publication could have one the greatest impacts on non-anarchist (and anarchist) circles that our country has ever seen....agree or no?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 10:32 PM PDT

Once again, I please ask, PLEASE PLEASE somebody put together a Crimethinc HOWTO on design and layout.

The design in this pamphlet is fantastic. Who does the design for projects like this?

Circuit

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 11:16 PM PDT

circuit,

that is a good idea, and i am working on the idea yu suggest but it may take awhile, as i stated before, i don\'t really know what i am doing, so i will have to do a lot of deconstruction to get it right.

anyway, you should come to the crimethinc film festival in Olympia Decemeber 5-8. On the 5th i will be doing two workshops about design, one non-computer and one computer based.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, September 20 2002 @ 11:22 PM PDT

design is like any other art -- it\'s purely subjective. there are no rules, and if PFM told you how he does stuff, then your projects will end up looking like his. the best way is to learn by looking and doing. just my two cents

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 21 2002 @ 12:14 AM PDT

Great work... too bad it can\'t be send to other places than the US, however US must the single nation that needs this the most.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 21 2002 @ 10:03 PM PDT

Design isn\'t entirely like any other art, in that most art is really for the artist and if others get enjoyment from it it\'s a happy coincidence, but design, that\'s for the person on the recieving end, so some general guidelines are good to go by (Not, of course that anybody\'s word is the end word, but it is more formulaic than most arts).

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 21 2002 @ 11:04 PM PDT

hey pfm. i\'d totally dig working on that project with you, infact i was talkin with b about it--in jest, a little while back. you should email me- texasfuckingslim@hushmail.com i think f would be down too.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, September 21 2002 @ 11:20 PM PDT

Wow amazing. Maby I will get ink for the colour printer just for this. Cause well it\'s worth it. Possibly I could try heating up the old ink cartrage. Ofcorse it may be a stupid idea. I\'m no expert on ink cartrages. Either way by the time you read this it\'ll be too late to tell me.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 10 2002 @ 04:32 AM PDT

distro in europe would be damn nice - any plans on the cards yet??

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 01:31 AM PDT

Even though i ordered a bunch and i think its cool im just wondering how you afforded this, and if you want to be philanthropic(is that a word?) you can feel free to donate a massive amount of money to the phoenix anarchist coalition.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 01:36 AM PDT

mostly counterfeiting, although some bank robberies and check forgeries helped too.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 01:44 AM PDT

As for design, there\'s an interesting (albeit, of course, capitalistic) \"special offer\" at

http://www.apple.com/promo/designfreely

(that is, you get Adobe InDesign - probably the most powerful \"new generation\" desktop publishing program - bundled with a new Power Macintosh: of course, it\'s an expensive computer, but it could be a worthwile and durable investment for associations, non-profits, etc., *if* the financial resources are not a problem: rather difficult in practice, probably...). For cheap Linux Intel boxes, KOffice (part of the KDE desktop environment) is an interesting free alternative: its KWord module also has basic DTP capabilities.

As for the anarchy booklet, I read the PDF version: while it\'s certainly an interesting (and graphically appealing) beginning, there should, IMHO, be much more emphasis on how people could practically change the basic modes of complex relationships in this society - that is, essentially, more federalism-related subsections. (And calling philosophers \"idle bastards\" - sic! - could *definitely* have been avoided - not true at all! See the poststructuralists, for example, who have given some very interesting - albeit \"eggheaded\" - contributions to anarchism.)

Of course, the anarchism (or the mainly \"simple\" concept of anarchy dealt with) advocated by this booklet is one of the many \"sections\" of anarchism possible (personally, I agree with 50%+ of what exposed there)...

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 03:09 AM PDT

Heh...you can also get Adobe InDesign with download at www.kazaalite.com

I agree, though, that it should offer more solutions...non-anarchists I showed it to said they loved the beginning (I speak just of the sample), felt it was very persuasive, but that the end sucked. I have to agree with the idle bastards thing, though...you can say that they helped a lot by giving up long analyses and what not, but they could have helped more-anarchy and people in general-by going to a volunteer effort...

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 10:32 AM PDT

CrimethInc. projects are funded by kidnapping CEOs and holding them for ransom.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 11:20 AM PDT

I know it\'s been said, but

The flyer kicks ass. Well done to everyone involved :)

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 11:40 AM PDT

the request order form does not work.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 12:14 PM PDT

This is an excellent booklet. Props to whoever took the time to make this.

In response to Sven\'s comment, I think this booklet is focused on simply informing people the anarchist mentality. Anything else, such as federalism-related subsections, would be more directed to people who already identify with anarchism. That\'s just my take on it.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 12:20 PM PDT

nevermind, the form works, just not in konqueror

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 01:42 PM PDT

yeah people who are interested in anarchism can always do a search on google or visit a library. the important is that people start thinking.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 04:03 PM PDT

If the creators would be interested in setting up distribution to canada. Please E-mail me at ScavengerType@iamwasted.com

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Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, September 22 2002 @ 08:00 PM PDT

No, everyone knows CrimethInc. kids all have trust funds. A whole army of trust-funded kids, who inexplicably spend those trust funds on propaganda about why the rest of us should feel bad about not having that privilege.

Seriously!

Actually, some of us have spent the last seven years working really hard (with crime as well as, unfortunately but of necessity, \"d.i.y.\" capitalism like touring in punk bands) to build up the capital to do things like this--the middle class ones committing \'class suicide\' and trading in their privileges for community resources, the working- and under-class ones having a rougher time of it (despite others\' help).

Anyone who still thinks we\'re all about just glorifying privileged scamming and worklessness, while we\'re out here risking everything we\'ve got to make anarchist ideas visible, is looking for enemies, in my estimation. We\'ve made mistakes, like everyone, and the best thing anyone can do is point those out--but please, understand, we are trying to be responsible, committed comrades for everyone else in this struggle, and projects like this one take everything we\'ve got--an \"everything\" we wouldn\'t even have to give if we hadn\'t quit our jobs and started dumpstering.

For a world where that freedom, to live as one chooses, isn\'t a privilege but a universal...

some CrimethInc. trust-fund-ee

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 23 2002 @ 01:19 AM PDT

Uh, well, I read it, and I think it\'s alright, but nothing to write home about.

Anarchists will probably think it\'s great because it goes on and on about how anarchism is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

One little paragraph on \"Anarchist Economics\", which contains the blantantly obvious lie that dumpster-diving is a \"gift\". Long on anarcho-theory and anarcho-jargon, short on what this means to someone who just wants to pay the rent and feed their kids.

chris

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 23 2002 @ 07:33 AM PDT

ha, \"just pay the rent and feed the kids\"—obviously the primary goal of all humans and driving force behind anarchism!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, September 23 2002 @ 02:23 PM PDT

I\'m going to grace this with a reply, though it\'s not intended constructively, as far as I can tell. I just went out found my copy, and here\'s the line this fellow is misrepresenting:

\"anarchist economies... transform products back into social relations: the communal experience of gardening or dumpster diving...\"

That\'s a different statement than he\'s implying. In my experience, in fact, dumpstering is a more \"communal experience\" than visiting the grocery store!

He may be confusing it with a later line:

\"The typical economic interaction... in anarchist economics, it is the gift.\"

Incidentally, have you ever noticed that people who dumpster and garden are a lot more willing to share, as a whole, than people who purchase? I think it\'s fair to ask if that\'s a coincidence, or if commodity-sale transactions really do rot the soul.

And--just to get this over with--NO, not everyone can dumspter right now (though MORE people can--come to any number of towns I\'ve lived in, and I\'ll show you where!), but it does make sense, I think, for some of us to, in order to get that much more of our lives free from the earning/spending cycle to work towards a world where everyone can garden, participate in cooperatives, etc. And yes, that means helping people Pay (or avoid) the rent and feed the kids!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 25 2002 @ 11:41 AM PDT

We need to do outreach.

IF someone can get me a thousand of these for this weekend in DC, (That means overnighting them today or tommorow at latest)i and some friends will see to it, that they are distributed to the many people on the street who look at our demonstrations and wonder what is it all about.

Or if there will be some at coonvergence center, let me know.
If not I will just print pdf file.

joe hill@riseup.net

I will pay any shipping costs. PLease email

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, September 25 2002 @ 10:46 PM PDT

http://crimethinc.com/fighting/sample.html

\"PLEASE DO NOT PRINT THIS OUT!!!
Such an action would be an immense waste of resources and would also result in quite an inferior piece of literature in your hands. A printed copy would use about 10 times the paper resources as one of our newsprint copies, not to mention that it probably won\'t be printed with soy ink as ours is, and the fancy four-color cover and spread—forget about it! Read the text on screen, and if you want a print version, please order some to distribute—after all, it\'s FREE!\"

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 04 2002 @ 07:44 AM PDT

hey dont know much about this. im in borneo...
send me some material please...!..im just ararely anarchist here. so it would very helpfull if you send me some of your stuff.

adios...^GODFREEYOUTH^

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 04 2002 @ 07:50 AM PDT

hey sorry if i write two times. iforgot to tell you. shit ilive in this shitty country called third world...idropout from school , dislike working as slaves, and certainly poor. we couldnt afford dollars..so we beg you to send us few stuff like books, literatures, or everything you going to send us....thx anyway

adios comrades......^GODFREEYOUTH^

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 04 2002 @ 12:07 PM PDT

Are there any left? can we get any out here to so. cal for the Anarchist anti war conference?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 04 2002 @ 09:33 PM PDT

Hmm,

Pick-up the printed version a little while ago.

Sorry to say but this stuff is disappointing even compared to earlier crimethinc stuff.

It\'s like the cartoon version of \"anarchism\", anarcho-punkersterism, situationism or whatever you want to call it. You could also call pure self-agrandizement - \"we fought in that revolution and the spanish civil war ...\"
It has an inspiring cover but I have imagine that the folks who loving this love it because it tells them that exactly like they are already is cool.

THE WORST WAY TO PATRONIZE SOMEONE IS TO NOT CHALLENGE THEM. This is also the least respectful possible attitude. Presenting everything as if it was easy and obvious is essentially assuming the average person is a moron, which they aren\'t. But presenting the anarcho-punks as fabulous is even more ludicrious.

I\'m not simply saying that everyone can\'t live out of dumpsters, though that\'s an obvious-as-fuck weakness.

I\'m saying that self-mythologizing is not a tool which others will grasp and use. And that\'s shame. On the face it, crimethinc seems like cool organization and close to my own situationist-approach. IF YOU HAD COME UP WITH SOMETHING POWERFUL, then printing that many copies would have a cool approach.

But as it is, all I can see is an organization who\'s line started out simple and has only gotten simpler as things go on.

I suppose measure is crimethinc\'s inability to respond to criticism. Not just not responding coherently but not even bothering to respond, at all, to anything.
-- If you want a \"constructive suggestion\", I\'d suggest seriously thinking and arguing in defense of what you do. It might lead to be able actually do different things.

Also, the efforts to deal with democracy and similar issues are reasonable - except that speaking in the name of \"anarchism\" is just stupid. Here, it is indeed like you imply you can create your version of anarchism without reference to what came before.
--- A simple statement this was your version, in particular, would go a long way towards honesty. But that would require defining things and arguing and admitting the world isn\'t always a heroic cartoon. I suggest this approach.
(And I\'m not saying a heroic cartoon is always bad, just if that\'s all you can give in twenty pages, there\'s a problem here).

I would say that the project of creating language which can communicate the idea of another is important project and I would at least congratulate crimethinc for taking on some of that activity. But this isn\'t a simple path. It requires you to actually spend time dialoging and looking the conditions and dillema\'s of someone caught in the web of work and consumption.

Simply saying \"we could all live in anarchy, wouldn\'t it be great\" leaves the mother with two children entirely cold. And ultimately, it leaves me cold as well.

Asan

-- I suppose I\'ll have self-agrandizing enough to suggest looking my website, http://www.webcom.com/maxang - especially Against Sleep And Nightmare Magazine. Asan is far from perfect but I would like to think it\'s a reasonable effort to look at many dimensions of the modern world, a necessary step to leaving it.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, October 05 2002 @ 09:22 AM PDT

I read the thing and think it\'s alright but has huge flaws. I don\'t really get the non-class struggle anarchist thing and think it stems out of non-c/s anarchists not wanting to address their own privilage (same goes for white anarchists with race and male anarchists with gender). In my area (mostly black and asian ghetto in London) this kind of thing wouldn\'t wash as it is clear to us that the rich will not give up power to live in dumpsters (and living in dumosters isn\'t particularly revolutionary is it?). I suggest ppl read Against the Corpse Machine by Ashen Ruins for more details on what I think about CrimethInc. Anyway, hope I wasn\'t rude (you know how us English are ;-))

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, October 05 2002 @ 12:30 PM PDT

ASAN,

really, have you even read the fucking thing?! I can\'t possibly see how you could have considering half your critique is totally directed at old \"crimethinc targets\" that have been kicked around since Dyas Of War Nights of Love came out, and are not even mentioned in the new publication. also, as far as simplifying things, maybe you should read the two most currents crimethinc publications: Harbinger.4 and Hunter/Gatherer #1, and crimethinc has responded to recent critiques, see the \"all traveller kids banned from crimethinc\' article an dthe letter that appeared in Clamor magazine. christ, i mean if you really want your criticism to be constructive, you have to a) keep up with whats actually going on and being said, and b) be specific instead of just bashing generalizations at every juntucre. obviously you have some kind of strong bias against anarchists with a punk background, but an honest look at FFOL would reveal only sparing mention of them or their activities.

bottom line, why should anyone pay attention to your shit as long as you are stuck in three years ago, not bothering to actually be constructive?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 14 2002 @ 12:59 PM PDT

Just got my crate and it\'s being distributed at my college. THANK (fill in blank) for programs like this, which stab the status quo right in the eyes.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 08 2002 @ 06:58 AM PDT

Hi i am from wisconsin and there are not many anarchists here only ppl who think being one is just plain out hating the pres. And here in WI anarchy is a very very trendy thing now. So i am asking if i could get a copy some how or some way so i can show them it. I am the only anarchist here in my school i need help in how i can explain it to others so they will like the idea and get into it and help me get a anarchy club here,
sINCERLY aMBER:)
anarchy!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 08 2002 @ 06:59 AM PDT

My e mail is SLCPunkSkater@hotmail.com

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 08 2002 @ 12:45 PM PDT

best stuff ever written!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 08 2002 @ 12:46 PM PDT

you can order them here:
http://crimethinc.com/fighting/request.html

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 08 2002 @ 12:47 PM PDT

oh and it\'s free.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 11 2002 @ 06:42 AM PDT

Thanks a bunch ! I can\'t wait til i can get mine in the mail....!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 14 2002 @ 07:50 PM PDT

Hope to receive my crate in time for the march in DC on the 26th. Maybe it might work to dispell some of the myths perpetuated by \"responsible journalists\" that all anarchists throw rocks at Starbucks and hide behind black masks. Thanks for the resource!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 14 2002 @ 09:45 PM PDT

I can\'t believe you\'re all raving about this garbage! Turning commodification economics into dumpsterdiving and shoplifting? Fucking Crimethinc again, up to their old middle class poverty-fetishism. This is hardly an excellant intro to anarchism! It\'s wishy-washy lifestylist dookie. It\'s more like a headache than a means to approach someone. I cant believe it was called simple yet not condescending. It was exactly the opposite.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 08:00 AM PDT

It is too bad that that th e authors didn\'t lay out a five year plan and a point by legalistic point defining ANARCHISM!
In seriousness, anarchy is very simple (it is getting people to live it that is hard}: We have to start living like humyns again. This pamphlet\'s emphasis on anarchy as a lived! movement rather than a text-based philosophy is very important. How many of you want to live? Or would you rather keep pretending that the workers can control the god of production at some future date?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 09:56 AM PDT

I don\'t view this is a good introduction to anarchism at all. It\'s mostly meaningless propaganda. I mean, one quote is, anarchism has a healthy mistrust of science. I think that\'s ridiculous. Anarchism has nothing to do with science or not science, except that people ought to be able to decide thier stances with regards to it independently. This flyer puts a whole lot of extraeous stuff into the word \"anarchism\", especially primitivism, which is a seperate concept. It also seperates anarchism from socialism-- sofar as I can see, anarchism is socialism, if you talk self consistently. \"Authoritarian socialism\", \"Libertarian capitalism\", these are oxymorons. So no, I think this flyer is really misleading, actually. I\'d suggest that the authors at least try to provide a broader definition of anarchism coming from many directions... rather than just some essentially random jumble of words that could mean anything, like \"anarchism is taking back your life\", or something... if the best you can do is something like \"anarchism is taking back your life\", you\'re not describing anarchism accurately, you\'re essentially just talking in unintelligible verse.

P.S. I liked anarchist FAQ

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 10:07 AM PDT

I\'d also suggest getting input from broad sectors of the anarchist community before publishing massive amounts of flyers claiming to represent \"anarchism\".

I guess I\'ll say a bit more... digress some on the \"unintelligible verse\" bit. I mean, c\'mon, some of this is just ridiculous. \"There is no anarchism, there is anarchy\", this is obviously not meant to be a clear description of what anarchism is all about. It\'s just a bunch of semi-religious phrases strung together to convince people the authors seem to feel are incapable of understading a rational discussion. Far from anarchism, this sort of thing represents a kind of elitism.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 10:31 AM PDT

I didn\'t know that North American anarchism was some kind of democracy where we all had to provide input on the contents of propaganda we publish! Has anyone warned AK Press or Autonomedia of this little-known requirement?

If you want a detailed description, read the anarchist FAQ. However, what some of you don\'t seem to realize is that things like the anarchist FAQ are far too lengthy and boring to anyone except shoegazing anarchist theory-lovers. This booklet is meant to introduce these ideas to a wider audience -- people who wouldn\'t even deign to wipe their asses with a printed-out copy of the FAQ.

The bibliography points people towards other books and websites where they might learn more. Honestly, if FFOL included clear and detailed descriptions of every little faction and tendency within anarchism then it would be 1000 pages long, single spaced, no illustrations, 9 point type. Do you really think that anyone would want to read that shit? Are you more interested in getting ideas out there and inspiring people to think and act for themselves, or toeing the historically correct anarchist line? There\'s a time and place to discuss details and theories; one\'s first encounter with anarchism is definitely not it.

This kind of criticism is often leveled at Crimethinc publications, but people often don\'t realize that these publications are hardly ever directed at them. They are meant for the uninitiated, people who have always thought that there was no way to live other than school/work -- and who can blame them for thinking that way since they are constantly bombarded not just with propaganda but with an entire culture dedicated to preserving that lie?

A real critique of Crimethinc might be that they offer no \"next step\" for people who have had their interest piqued by their literature. It\'s easy to say \"the next step is up to you, go out there and do your own thing,\" but since Crimethinc was kind enough to break down the walls for some folks, they should follow up by offering some suggestions on where to go after we leave the prison.

The next Crimethinc publication will actually involve input from various \"factions\" and tendencies ... if you would like to contribute, go here:

http://crimethinc.com/cookbook/

so, shit or get off the pot ... this is your chance to have your ideas for action heard. Take advantage of it or forever hold your peace.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 01:09 PM PDT

I don\'t understand why people claim that Crimethinc is somehow elite by proposing that revolution can begin with your own life? It seems that what\'s truly elite is ever-narrowing theories and discussions, with a lot of words, but very little effect. goddamnit, it\'s downright elite of me to be saying this shit....why don\'t we all just try to support what the tohers are doing, and be happy when a group tries to reach out to the \"general\" public. I give the people who came out with FFOL a round of fucken\' applause, I mean, what accomplishes more, doing things that are essentially preaching to the choir (posting on indymedia, infoshop, going to a meeting where theory is discussed, etc.) or printing out a quarter-million booklets and giving them to anyone for free....they\'re trying. I think that crimethinc is setting a good example, time and again, and for those not already involved with a crimethinc project, either smack their label on your project and hijack the whole operation (in a good way; remember, crimethinc is yours as much as anyone elses) or else, instead of criticizing as lifestylist, poverty-fetishists, and whatnot, go out there and do something that fucking blows them out of the water.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 07:07 PM PDT

All I\'m saying is, it seems pretty irresponsible to produce 250,000 booklets to introduce people to your conception of anarchism if your conception of anarchism is in flat disagreement with many other kinds of anarchism, and you haven\'t made hardly any attempt (any attempt, besides sources or whatever? I don\'t remember any) to even cite the literature. I mean, the kind of anarchism which is introduced by the crimethinc people is primitivist, and also claims to be non-socialist. Talking self consistently, I don\'t think it is even possible to have anarchism without socialism (Guerin, Chomsky would agree). Plus, the book assumes that the average person is too stupid to understand even a small amount of rationality-- the best this booklet seems to be able to do is spout nonsense phrases like \"anarchism is fighting for our lives\", \"there is no anarchism, there is only anarchy\", \"we broke into an office and stole thier stuff\", etc. With that sort of introduction, it\'s no wonder people aren\'t friendly towards anarchists. Besides, if people are too stupid to understand a rational discussion, they sure aren\'t smart enough to see through all the phrases in this booklet.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 07:44 PM PDT

Could you cite the ways in which Crimethinc is in \"flat disagreement with many other kinds of anarchism\"? Is Crimethinc somehow authoritarian, or pro-cop, or pro-capitalism is a way that other kinds of anarchism are not?

It\'s interesting that you consider any attempt to strip anarchism of its academic, jargon-laden, alienating language as equivalent to treating people as if they were stupid. I guess I must be \'stupid,\' then, if such language turns me off.

You pretend that this booklet is the worst thing that could happen to modern anarchism in the US, and yet the many emails and letters Crimethinc receives each week from a variety of people who have read copies of FFOL and want new copies to give to their friends must mean that FFOL is striking a chord, somewhere, in a way that musty tracts and dense academic tomes are not. Or maybe it is just striking a chord with \'stupid\' people?

And finally, from the description above:

Rather than get bogged down in mudslinging, wouldn\'t it be so much more inspiring and productive to back up a decent, thoughtful, comradely critique with a booklet, pamphlet, newsletter or magazine that puts ours to shame? We don\'t pretend to have all the answers, nor do we fruitlessly present ourselves as \"pure\" revolutionaries with the secret knowledge that will liberate the world, so we certainly welcome principled engagement!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 15 2002 @ 07:52 PM PDT

NOTICE TO ALL ANARCHIST PUBLISHERS

In order to avoid the grim charge of being \"irresponsible,\" all publishers must henceforth submit their potential books, magazines, flyers, pamphlets, stickers, posters, and other forms of printed or spoken propaganda at least six months in advance in order for approval by the Central Committee for Anarchist Consistency and Rigidity of Thought and Deed. In addition, your number of copies will be limited to the amount of responsibility that the Committee deems you to exhibit.

you can contact the CCACRTD c/o Alex here on Infoshop

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 16 2002 @ 06:41 AM PDT

I finally got my books and handed them out and i have 5 left. Even My art teaher took some it was so cool.. thanks for the books!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 16 2002 @ 10:16 AM PDT

Well, I don\'t really know anything about crimethinc as an organization, I\'m just commenting on the booklet.

As for your charges of it being bad to call this booklet irresponsible, what else can you do? I mean, I think this misrepresents anarchism. So what am I supposed to do?

I don\'t mean to say that it would be possible to try to give an Anarchist FAQ style idea of anarchism in a booklet. That\'s impossible, it would take too much paper. But, if you are going to represent anarchism, or represent anything for that matter, then I think you have a responsibility to tell the truth. And if you\'re just spouting random phrases which don\'t really make any sense, in attempt to convey the \"feeling\" of anarchism, because you think people are too stupid to understand the realities, or your booklet is too short to say anything meaningful (which isn\'t true at all, mabye not some Anarchist FAQ, but something meaningful is definitely possible with 24 pages), then you aren\'t telling the truth, in fact, you really aren\'t saying anything-- the phrases you\'re spouting can be interpreted as something good or bad depending on the amount of actual facts that the person is familiar with.

Alright, someone mentioned here, what in this booklet is in flat contradiction of other kinds of anarchism. Well, there\'s one place where it says flat out, anarchism mistrusts science. That\'s not true-- anarchism has no stance on science in itself. It wouldn\'t be that bad if it was just that one place. But this is reflected constantly throughout the whole booklet. Also, it says anarchism is not a form of socialism. That\'s also not true... that anarchism is a kind of socialism is reflected throughout virtually anything you can read on the subject. I\'m guessing the authors may have said this because they think that people won\'t understand that socialism might be something different from the Stalinism that the mainstream encourages people to believe it is. But I think it would probably be better to explain that than just go along with the propaganda.

And there are some good things about this book. I mean, the artwork is wonderful. Some of it is accurate-- I mean, it gets the basic idea getting rid of private property across, getting rid of class. And it is possible that the spirit of it will encourage people to investigate further. But it seems to me that this isn\'t a good introduction to anarchism, there\'s just too much misrepresentation strewn in with everything else.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 16 2002 @ 10:26 AM PDT

Perhaps it \"misrepresents\" various strains of anarch-ISMS, but I think that point you are missing if that crimehinc and many anarchists (for lack a better term) seek to transcend ideology all together, to chase after anarchy in their life, rather than sit and talk about anarchism. If it doesn\'t strike a chord with you, fine, and if you\'re idea of anarchy/ism includes socialism, fine as well, but I think that it is somewhat of an oxymoron to accuse anarchists of misrepresenting THEMSELVES. Of COURSE this is a few peoples view, but it obviously has sparked a fuse with thousands...if you don\'t agree with everything they say, put out 250,000 copies of your own booklet, and stop complaining about theres. at least they\'re out there, trying....

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 16 2002 @ 11:14 PM PDT

There is no fucking CrimethInc. This so called group of people is one, let me repeat that, ONE MIDDLE CLASS WHITE GUY WITH A TRUST FUND WRITING ALMOST EVERYTHING. He has a couple of \"comrades.\" . This person lives in two different places, between his parents and his friend\'s house. When you see CrimethInc. writings signed by different people, it\'s because the guy has different personas. If you\'d look closely, it\'s all the same ramblings in HunterGatherer, Days of War, Harbinger, And this new crap. What scares me is that this trust fund is funding 250,000 copies of HIS view of what anarchism is, and I think it wildly misrepresents what the majority of anarchists practice and believe, worldwide. Most of these people being incredibly more oppressed than he, and doesn\'t need this guy providing his middle class politics as a intro to a much more complex struggle. Him writing things under a female name is fucking sexist and patronizing, him signing a piece, \"the Black Writer\'s Bloc.\" is beyond me, because, one: that\'s racist as shit, and two, one person isn\'t a Bloc. I think that a huge part of practicing anarchism is being accountable and responsible to the anarchist community, and to people who are struggling and who are oppressed. When he says things like, \"We anarchists...\" he\'s misrepresenting me and about tens of millions of people worldwide that would be disturbed by a middle class white guy saying, that an alternative to capitalist economics is to shoplift and dumpsterdive. And yes everyday we blow these fuckers out of the water with our actions. You dont see our 250,000 copies of our personal self-righteous representations of individualist politics, because we\'re busy being anarchists. IE: feeding our children, educating ourselves and our communities, providing resources for the disadvantaged, bring anarchism to the table of community discussions at large and providing support for each other, mutual aid, and solidarity, building communities from the ground up, etc. etc. We\'re not jerking off 250,000 copies of \"there is no anarchism, there is only anarchy.\"
Anarchism may have different strands, and different suffixes or whatever, but none should claim that they are the right one. We can argue and debate and freely associate, but to claim to be an intro to fucking anarchism, you\'d better fucking not shoot your wad so quick. There are a lot of pissed off people that are looking for this guy\'s head, because they feel extremely disempowered by this pamphlet. And I mean a lot of people. The writings are clearly irresponsible and clearly classist, racist, and sexist in so many ways, that to call it anarchist at all is a fucking joke. Whoever advocates for this to be a wonderful piece of literature has a lot to learn about the values of collective responsibility and accountability, which this guy\'s writings systematically does away with. I not naming names, because names are irrelevant. Just know that everytime you put out more literature, youre digging yourself an ugly hole that will take a long time to get out of.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 16 2002 @ 11:26 PM PDT

Oh, I I\'m all for the libertarian-communism/libertarian-socialism/anarcho-communism form af anarcho-ness, but not FOR ONE SECOND do I claim it\'s going to be the ONLY way to bring about revolutionary change. That\'s what\'s most important. I may believe it is, and put my heart and soul into making and advocating for it, but for me to write that these schools represent what anarchism solely is, would be ridiculous and irresponsible. It\'s the form that I like the most, and what I believe should happen to make real change, but I\'m not going to spend $17,000 fucking dollars. (the cost of this pamphlet...see Crimethinc.com) on spewing out 250,000 copies of personal pseudo-situationist individualist ramblings to get my point across. FUCK THAT! Do you all realize what $17,000 can do? Do you know how many mouths that could feed? How many organizations that utilize revolutionary direct action to create concrete change could have benefitted from that chunk of Trust Fund/Punk Band Change? 100% irresponsible.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:23 AM PDT

Some of the things in this literature is unbelievable. This is hardly anarchism!
Check this out...

\"I ’m speaking,of course,of anarchists —and when people ask me about my politics,
I tell them:the best reason to be a revolutionary is that it is simply a better way to live.\"

Yeah easy enough for him, but being a revolutionary is much harder for those who are actually economically and socially disadvantaged. These are things he is not.

\"If you don ’t trust the government,
the school system,Hollywood,or the management to
know better than you when it comes to things that affect
your life,that ’s anarchism,too.\"

and then...

\"As you can see,it ’s anarchism that keeps things
working and life interesting.\"

and then later...

\"Anarchism is naturally present in every healthy human being.\"

and then...

\"The root of anarchism
is the simple impulse to do it yourself:everything else
follows from this.\"

BUT hold on, later on it reads...

\"There is no Anarchism —but there is anarchy,or rather,there are anarchies.\"

HMMM, i rest my case on contradictions
and this is an oldie but goodie Crimethincology:

\"Anarchist economies,focusing above
all on the needs and desires of the individuals involved,transform products back into social
the communal experience of gardening or dumpster diving or playing music,the
excitement and self-righteous high of stealing from a supermarket or squatting a building.\"

You classist piece of shit. There is NOTHING revolutionary about the excitement and self-righteous high of stealing from a supermarket or squatting a building. PEOPLE DO THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE POOR, AND THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. You do it to masterbate and impress punk girls. Your \"Romantic Revolutionary Desires\" are nothing but mere replacements of consumerism for middle class white boys. Your \"revolution\" is as revolutionary as watching t.v. or driving an SUV to live out your wet consumerist dreams.
You just replace it with getting your rocks off seeing the face of the security guard at the market when he realizes you ripped him them off. Nothing but self-gratification. This isn\'t anarchism, this is individualism and selfishness.

\"We anarchists fight against these oppressive structures whether we find them in society or ourselves;but we aim for more than the liberation of human beings of all identities —we want the liberation of
all human beings from identity.\"

Who\'s we? I\'m not an anarchist that wants to abolish identity.

\"We believe there are no universals.\"

But you just stated one.

\"Group identities are self-perpetuating fabrications that begin with circumstantial evidence and end by imposing uniformity. \"

Bullshit. Sometimes that\'s self-determination of groups of people. Tell that to the Palestinians who use identity to assert their self-determination and right to be free of Israeli Imperialism. Are you going to school them with your post-post-modernist universal statement?

\"Though “femininity ” may appear ordained by nature to those who grew up in environments where all women shave their legs and armpits, it is just a generalization drawn from generations of standardized reinforced by each replication.\"

Who the fuck are you to be speaking for womyn? I know plenty of radical feminist womyn who like cleanshaven armpits cuz they like the feel of it.

\"We want to get beyond these and all categories and conflicts, but it ’s only going to happen if we begin by addressing them.\"

There you go with that \"we\" stuff again, speaking for me.

\"We are feminists who would abolish
gender,labor organizers who would abolish
work,artists fighting to destroy and transcend
art.Our class war is a war against class, against classes and classification. \"

You\'re a feminist? Please. You\'re a labor organizer? And one that would abolish work? Oh man that\'s good. How dare you say, \"our class war\" you fucking shithead, go fucking jump in a dumpster.

\"When we say that we are against representation, we do not only mean
representative “democracy ”;we also mean that each of us is an irreducible individual,that
none can speak for another.Neither politicians
nor abstractions,delegates nor demographics
can represent us!\"

Irony at its best. Damn!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:28 AM PDT

\"There are a lot of pissed off people that are looking for this guy\'s head ... Just know that everytime you put out more literature, youre digging yourself an ugly hole that will take a long time to get out of. \"


oooooh cheap threats! you\'re so manly and tough!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:30 AM PDT

\"When you see CrimethInc. writings signed by different people, it\'s because the guy has different personas.\"

This is just a flat-out lie. I can personally think of at least seven different writers that have published under the Crimethinc name that I have met in person at least once.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:31 AM PDT

\"Do you all realize what $17,000 can do? Do you know how many mouths that could feed?\"

so you are in favor of charity? how liberal of you

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:33 AM PDT

\"\'the Black Writer\'s Bloc\' is beyond me, because, one: that\'s racist as shit, and two, one person isn\'t a Bloc.\"

um, this is a pun that combines two phrases: \'black bloc\' and \'writer\'s block.\' it has nothing to do with race. get your humor gland checked.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:37 AM PDT

You must have missed this part of the booklet:

\"Composed by some anarchists.The \'we\' used throughout these texts is the anarchist we: that is, it refers to all who would associate themselves with the statements in question, and to no others.\"

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 12:40 AM PDT

\"There is no Anarchism —but there is anarchy,or rather, there are anarchies.\"

Easy enough to explain -- note the capital A in anarchism. It seems to me that this is meant to indicate that there is no central authority that dictates what anarchism is or isn\'t, and the reference to \"anarchies\" acknowledges that there are several different interpretations of anarchism. You see a contradiction, I see an explanation. But clearly, no explanation is sufficient for you, since you obviously have some kind of personal vendetta against the individual who you assume to be the sole author of all Crimethinc output. It must be awful to be consumed by such venomous hatred.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 01:56 AM PDT

To Grunt: By the time people get to the disclaimer at the end, they\'ve been immersed in it already. If it\'s meant as an intro, disclaimers should be in the beginning.

To RB: That quote was quoted to show the direct contradiction from the previous statements referring to anarchism. Reread my statement. I have no personal vendetta, I just am aware of the person\'s life, and what kind of background he\'s from. I have no venemous hatred, I\'m just clearly critiquing how fucked up this is. It\'s so classic to defend a point by arguing about the ways the critique is made, and not addressing the critique itself. So typical.

To xxxx: These aren\'t cheap threats, this is just an expression of MANY people\'s rage that have seen this literature, and find it highly offensive. People of color who have articulated its racism, womyn who have articulated its sexism, many articulating its classism, etc. This isn\'t me being manly, these are expression of alienation and disempowerment by an assortment of people who are comfortable with me reflecting these critiques. Pissed off people are thinking of approaching this man and wanting to let him know how they feel. \"Wanting his head\" doesnt mean they want to chop it off. And the ugly hole is the one he\'s falling into for fetishizing a struggle that is hardly his.

Feminism is something he clearly knows nothing about. (from his actions in real life, not just his writings) class struggle isn\'t his, he\'s definately well off, and his writings are irresponsible for assuming that he can identify with these struggles. I dont give a shit about his \"desires to live the revolution now,\" his desires are rooted in privilege, not the struggles of disempowered people. I\'m also not saying that anarchism is a monopoly owned by the most disempowered and can only be defined by them, but for he who should be an ally in class struggle and feminist struggle and the fight against white supremecy and imperialism, it\'s not his right or place to speak for those struggles and how those movements for liberation play out. It\'s his responsibility to aid and support those struggles not patronize them with contradictory ranting. His statements have no value if they aren\'t rooted in real struggle. He has no idea what it\'s like to be socially or economically or sexually oppressed, therefore where does he get off taking up so much space with his literature that claims to represent these struggles?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 02:03 AM PDT

Im in favor of direct action. $17,000 is way better spent on providing direct support for those who are hungry then on this garbage. If you think that providing resources as an ally to people who are disadvantaged isn\'t anarchistic, then you must be a nutcase. A liberal? I was born radical, because I barely ate from the ages of 0 - 20. If someone told me that giving me food wasn\'t radical enough when I was a hungry child, but that the $ was better spent on 250,000 copies of eyecandy, I would definately not have been their ally. Give me a break.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 03:30 AM PDT

Well, first of all, it seems that you have a personal beef with a certain someone. I can\'t address that -- it\'s between the two of you -- though I admit that I am burning with curiosity. None of my business, though.

You chastise that person, ol\' You Know Who, for presuming to speak for people, and yet you turn and do the very same thing -- at least, that\'s my interpretation of what you\'re doing.

Are you speaking for all people of color, womyn, and working class people? No? Which members of these three groups are the final authorities on what is racist, sexist or classist? I know of several people of color, womyn, and broke-ass blue-collar joes who get a lot out of Crimethinc. I also know of people who fit these descriptions who get nothing at all out of it. (In both cases I am mainly referring to roommates and personal friends of mine -- this isn\'t abstract guessing on my part but based on real experience, as I\'m sure your opinion is as well.)

That\'s fine. It doesn\'t mean that Crimethinc has something to say to all people at all times, nor does it mean that Crimethinc is utterly worthless either. There is a middle ground here, you know, and it\'s pretty damn vast.

I can\'t defend the charge that You Know Who used a fake womon\'s name as a pseudonym, but I will say that at least two of the items published by Crimethinc under womon\'s names or pseudonyms were written by the womon largely responsible for the UNAPACK campaign, if you remember that. I know this because I read them in UNAPACK literature before they appeared with the Crimethinc label. Here is only one example dating from 1996.

I will also say that there are numerous womyn involved with the Crimethinc project at any given moment, including womyn of color. (For instance, I know for a fact that a friend of mine who fits this latter description recently received a packet of FFOLs for distribution.) These womyn certainly have their critiques of Crimethinc (as we all should, as we should always be critiquing anything like this!), but they are not coming from the same position of venomous dismissal that you are, so I wonder what the difference is here.

If you want your critique to be taken seriously, you really should consider the tone of it. It is the difference between having something screamed in your face with doubled fists emphasizing the point, and speaking your mind in a polite but firm manner. Of course the substance of your critique must be addressed -- that\'s what I\'m doing -- but I really think the tone of your latter response is far superior to that of your original rant.

Again, I can\'t answer your charges against You Know Who\'s personal life. All I can say is that there are lots of people involved in the Crimethinc project, and while most of them are certainly white, I would not say that the majority of them are middle-class males. But just as you say that it is so \"classic\" and \"typical\" to avoid the substance of your critique in favor of examining its tone, it is also utterly \"classic\" and \"typical\" to attack someone based upon their background and personal life, and not what they are saying or doing. Perhaps you would prefer that middle-class people simply remain in their entrenched middle-class lives and not even try to destroy their privileges and attempt to encourage other middle-class people to do the same? I can guess what your reply might be, but remember, middle-class privilege will always exist as long as the middle class itself exists; no members of that class can ever fully leave it behind until the entire class system is stomped flat!

I hope we can continue to discuss this in a comradely manner without all the accompanying sarcasm and insults?

Also, please feel free to contribute to the Crimethinc Critique project, if you feel that you can do so constructively. critique@crimethinc.org

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 03:31 AM PDT

I am looking forward to seeing your letter to AK Press and Autonomedia demanding that they cease publication, sell all their assets and use the cash to feed hungry people.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 08:33 AM PDT

People have said that it is better to spend the money on direct action than to spend it on making pamphlets, but I don\'t think that is necessarily true. Pamplets have potential to catalyze the spending of more money, a lot more, by getting information out where there was none.

The only thing is, I don\'t think this pamphlet is at all accurate. It doesn\'t give out an accurate picture of what anarchism is... it gives out some sort of primitivist version of anarchism which for the large part has little to do with more mainstream anarchist concepts. This is simply a distortion on the authors\' part.

I think the person before me makes a wonderful point about the classism of this booklet. He\'s absolutely right, people don\'t go eating out of dumpsters for fun, they don\'t go living in the wilderness for fun. They do it because they have no other choice. Before one glorifies a practice, mabye one ought to ask the people who actually practice it if they like it. This is absurd. It\'s like someone in the 1800s talking about the \"glories\" of selling yourself into slavery, to experience the \"freedom\" of not having to worry about \"status\".

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 08:35 AM PDT

i have problems with this fighting for our lives piece of writing, and feel less alone reading this thread knowing there are other people who read it and feel angry and disempowered.

i have been following this discussion, i keep trying to compose my anger and dissapointment into some articulate words. select all, delete.

this is what i know to be true: i am a white woman, a single mother, i live in poverty, i was raised in a working class family. i claim anarchist as one of my political identities, and that is intensely meaningful to me. i read the pamphlet, felt disempowered, frustrated, angry, wept, called for heads to roll. i have sat with others trying to figure out another word to describe our political identities, part of me wants to divorce myself from anarchism if THIS is what it will come to mean.

in more hopeful moments i think that crimethinc is catchy, stylish, fun, appealing, and maybe they will take criticisms seriously - though the record doesn\'t indicate that this will happen - and develop as a result into a more responsible and thoughtful publishing group.

a start would be a humble aknowledgement by crimethinc that it represents nothing more than a faction of western individualist anarchism, and public apologies for their grandiose arrogance in equating this with anarchism as a whole.

a

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 09:27 AM PDT

as a pamphlet, yes it does have some flaws, but so does every other pamplet i\'ve ever read.

you have to bear in mind its purpose and audience, which are people who know shit about anarchism, and as far as that goes, its great. Regardless of the specifics that may be wrong, the gist of it may well appeal to a lot of people who\'d never have been exposed to it. Maybe it won\'t work maybe it will, but by criticising someone for trying something new, your gonna achieve nothing but discouraging people from trying out new stuff.

At the end of the day though its just another pamphlet... a slightly different spin maybe, but what the fucks wrong with innovating a bit?

and to all the people bitching about the guy who wrote it being some middle class kid or somehting, then fuck you... theres always someone better off or worse off than you... assuming most people here are american or EU, then regardless of how badly off you are relative to most americans/europeans, your a fuck of a lot better off than someone who lives off $2 a week, is forced to choose between food and safe water and has to pay to take a shit. To them, your travel costs to a protest probably represent a years wage.
Different people have different resources availible to them, contyribute what you can... when i can i donate to people doing stuff like this so they should recoup a fair bit of the costs. If i spent $500 booking a hall for a benefit show would that money be better spent on charity? that arguement is a slippery slope, and really pretty pathetic

with the kind of atmosphere a few people have surrounded this idea with you get the impression that nobody can breathe without getting shouted at

i guess what im trying to say is... stop being boring, inward looking cunts and LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP!!!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 10:02 AM PDT

\"i guess what im trying to say is... stop being boring, inward looking cunts and LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP!!!\"

oh. i see. so what you are trying to say is that the \"cunts\" who want an anarchist movement that self-examines, is self-critical and accountable to communities (especially those that have the most to gain from anti-authoritarian revolt) are harshing your mellow? sorry buddy, i\'ll shut up.

a.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 11:18 AM PDT

you quote me out of context :P
self-examination is great.... but i felt the line between constructive criticism and all out bitching and mudslinging had been crossed.

and lightening the fuck up is never a bad idea

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 11:47 AM PDT

ok so first she\'s a cunt and now she\'s bitching? you need to check yourself, boy

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 07:20 AM PDT

and further more, there\'s no accountability. No one signed this as their own. Who the hell wrote this? I can\'t really engage in the author in critical dialog if I don\'t know who wrote it.
Fuck!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 02:19 PM PDT

it seems that this must be an FBI plant or something, with the vehemence of the accusation and complete and utter creations and LIES presented as facts. I am defnitely in a position to know, for certain, and i can tell you this:

1) CrimethInc. has never been the beneficiary of ANY funds from a trust fund.* The individual in question does not received money from any such fund.

2) There are many people involved in writing and working on the \"CrimethInc. project\". I would say as of right now, there are between 8-12 individual in several geographic locations who work the equivalent of full-time on CrimethInc.-related activities (at least 40 hours a week, sometimes muc, much more).

I know these things as facts, i have seen them with my own eyes and have followed these happening for years, now. I am included in the group mentioned in the second point and am very knowledgeable about where all the money comes from.

In order for me to even consider answering all of your other missrepresenting statements, YOU MUST ACCOUNT FOR HOW IT WAS POSSIBLE TO STATE THESE UTTERLY UNTRUE THINGS AS FACTS, IN A PUBLIC FORUM. failure to do so, will completely discredit everything you are involved with here, and quite frankly, make you look like an agent saboteur.

waiting for a full explanation and reply.

*it is possible that some people who have ordered things from us and made donations of lses than $100, potentially were getting money from trust funds, as we don\'t know them all personally.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 02:21 PM PDT

it seems that this must be an FBI plant or something, with the vehemence of the accusation and complete and utter creations and LIES presented as facts. I am defnitely in a position to know, for certain, and i can tell you this:

1) CrimethInc. has never been the beneficiary of ANY funds from a trust fund.* The individual in question does not received money from any such fund.

2) There are many people involved in writing and working on the \"CrimethInc. project\". I would say as of right now, there are between 8-12 individual in several geographic locations who work the equivalent of full-time on CrimethInc.-related activities (at least 40 hours a week, sometimes muc, much more).

I know these things as facts, i have seen them with my own eyes and have followed these happening for years, now. I am included in the group mentioned in the second point and am very knowledgeable about where all the money comes from.

In order for me to even consider answering all of your other missrepresenting statements, YOU MUST ACCOUNT FOR HOW IT WAS POSSIBLE TO STATE THESE UTTERLY UNTRUE THINGS AS FACTS, IN A PUBLIC FORUM. failure to do so, will completely discredit everything you are involved with here, and quite frankly, make you look like an agent saboteur.

waiting for a full explanation and reply.

*it is possible that some people who have ordered things from us and made donations of lses than $100, potentially were getting money from trust funds, as we don\'t know them all personally.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 02:22 PM PDT

Calling a womyn a cunt and telling her to stop bitchin and lighten up is hardly constructively. Also I understand that living working class in America has more privileges than those outside its borders. But the working class struggle internationally is for people who are working class. This guy isn\'t. I guess what it really boils down to, is that for all its catchiness and eyecandy, CrimethInc literature is still horribly contradictory in its narrative, and reeks of individualism which is the most exclusive and sour wing of the anarchist movement in the US and EU.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 02:58 PM PDT

certainly, as has been already stated, Crimethinc represents nothing more than itself, just as the social ecologists represent themselves, the primitivists represent themselves, the class-war crews represent themselves, and so on.

each of us locates and defines anarchy in a particular and individual way, which is one of the things that is so great about it, in my opinion. if the primitivists or class-war crews were isolated, they\'d merely be some kind of fringe extremists, but as a whole all the anarchist factions comprise a total attack upon every aspect of this system and the travesty that has become our daily lives.

the class-war anarchists understand and attack the insane class system. the social ecologists deal with the way we interact. the primitivists and green @s address the destruction of the planet, and our bizarre ways of thinking about nature and animals as inanimate things to be taken at our pleasure. the insurrectionists spread the joy of outrage and action. and so on.

however, if we are to accomplish anything, we must not think of our own ways as the ONLY ways. Crimethinc is as guilty of this as every other anarcha-faction -- not to mention each of us as individual anarchists. because we have chosen a certain path, we like to think of it as superior to others. this is a tremendous flaw in strategy, tactics, and long-term goals. although we should always constructively engage and critique each other, we should ultimately remember that we NEED each other to fully attack every aspect of this stinking, rotten \"order.\"

now, that said -- as a single mother, how does it make you feel when Crimethinc talks about childcare and things of that nature? allow me to illustrate:

\"YOU CAN try baby-sitting nights for single mothers -- there are thousands of them longing for a chance to go out and have a good time. If you have a circle of dependable volunteers, you could organize an alternative day care collective-there\'s a real shortage of those these days.\"

-- from Harbinger 3

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 03:15 PM PDT

also -- if you do not want Crimethinc to define anarchism for you, then don\'t. it\'s as simple as that.

I wonder how many copies there are of anarchist books from varying perspectives? do you think there are more than 250,000? do you think that, until this point, we were all in agreement about what anarchy is, and then Crimethinc had the audacity to come around and say that it was something totally different from what every single anarchist had agreed upon before?

Crimethinc cannot force you to do anything -- dumpster-diving or workplace organizing, shoplifting or community gardening, learning to play guitar or learning to shoot a cop-shaped target at 250 yards. Ultimately, what anarchy is in your life is really up to you, and the comrades you work with on a regular basis. For some, it may mean forcing their bosses to acknowledge their autonomy bit by bit; for others, it may mean resisting the destruction of the natural world by any means necessary; and for still others it may mean welcoming one\'s neighbors into one\'s garden and home in order to discuss food and life and love and politics (who knows what kind of action might spring from such a gathering!).

What sense does dumpster-diving make if you live in rural Kentucky far away from any kind of dumpster or corporate store? For that matter, what sense does labor organizing make if you\'re self-employed, or not employed at all? Isn\'t it unrealistic to expect denizens of the deep city to leave everything behind and join a tree-sit? And isn\'t it ridiculous to talk about quitting your job and hopping trains to someone who has far too many obligations to just up and hit the road? Isn\'t it absurd to talk about hacking corporate websites or sabotaging surveillance cameras to migrant workers?

Yes, of course it is unrealistic and ridiculous and absurd and makes no sense! But we have to remember that our tactics, strategies, actions (and yes, lifestyles) will vary from place to place and from person to person. What works for an impoverished white woman with children will not work for a group of young black teenagers, nor will it work for middle-class punk kids in Madrid or desperate indigenous elders in Canada or Uruguay. The sooner we all acknowledge this, the better off we\'ll be.

That said, it seems clear to me that FFOL is targeted towards a specific audience, and outside of that audience it won\'t make much sense, and shouldn\'t have to. I think that if FFOL feels alienating and idiotic to you and yours, then it might be a good idea to decide what kind of literature and actions you find inspiring and admirable, and spread those around to the best of your ability. Obviously, many of us (me included) are way too busy with our daily lives to birth something on the scale of FFOL, but that is exactly why God created affinity groups, collectives and federations: so that we can do together what we cannot do alone.

good luck!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 03:32 PM PDT

In response to \"The point is...\"
You know, if I feel disempowered by anything, it\'s by being told that I don\'t exist, or that I need you to save me. Before you ride into battle waving your banner, why not check the facts? I\'m a working class queer woman who has been inspired by crimethinc, and in turn inspired to bust my ass working for and writing under the crimethinc moniker; nor am I the only one. there is absolutely no room for me in your ill-informed \"critique,\" and by swinging around these dangerous abstractions, you\'ve done exactly what you criticize about You Know Who: you\'ve ignored me, silenced me, spoken for me, disempowered and PISSED ME OFF. whatever you think about crimethinc - and believe me, i have my own criticisms and reservations - you can\'t just continue spreading this bullshit in a public forum to make it, and us, easier to demonize. if you have serious concerns, voice them, but by turning this into a self-righteous mudslinging contest you make it impossible to take your posts - and by extension this whole forum - seriously.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 08:47 PM PDT

not that it excuses such things, but \"cunt\" has much less sexist connotation in Europe. it\'s still sexist though.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 17 2002 @ 08:52 PM PDT

so, if a group of largely white people start using images of people of color in their publications, wouldn\'t that then be attacked as misleading and a sort of false diversity? probably as vigorously as they are attacked now for not using enough diverse imagery?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 07:18 AM PDT

Ted said \"you have to bear in mind its purpose and audience, which are people who know shit about anarchism\"

but the top of this page says that it\'s for people that don\'t know about anarchism, and that is precisely how I read it...

I don\'t think A. quoted you out of context. Stuff like this often happens when Crimethinc\'ers get constructively criticised, they get defensive.
It started with \"Days...\" The criticisms came, and Crimethinc didn\'t acknowedge them but rather published another book that was just as problematic, if not more so, for all the same reasons.

RB said not to let Crimethinc define anarchism for me if I didn\'t want to. That\'s pretty fucking arrogant. Of course I don\'t let anyone/thing else define anarchy for me, but there will soon be quarter of a million folks out there that think this is what Anarchy is for me when I say, \"I\'m an anarchist.\" Now I\'ll have to add \"but if you\'ve read anything published by CrimethInc, I\'m not that kind of anarchist.\"

And of course Crimethinc represents nothing but itself, but what is this vague-asses \"anarchist we\" that is mentioned at the end. What the hell does that mean?

Also RB\'s comment about single moms is kind of sketchy. Substitute \"black person\" for \"single mother\" and say, \"civil rights\" for \"childcare\" you\'ll see what I\'m saying.

I could go on and on...

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 11:13 AM PDT

i find it amazing that so many so-called anarchists confuse the words \"critique\" and \"attack\".

you people are ruthless towards those who appear to be comrades.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:17 PM PDT

Everything you\'ve written here is a lie. How much did the government pay you to write this bullshit? I\'d delete this inaccurate slander, but I\'m leaving it up to show people how COINTELPRO operates.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:21 PM PDT

\"Yeah right\" is obviously some anti-anarchist person who is alarmed that anarchists are publishing 250,000 copies of anything. This person has engaged in lies about Crimethinc and the people who write their materials. I know several of the people who have written things for Crimethinc and I cna\'t believe that some shit-talking asshole would just make up lies like this. Buddy, I hope the government is paying you well.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:24 PM PDT

I have to disagree. This new booklet by Crimethinc is far more true to anarchism than most so-called anarchist materials being published today. It is a very readable approach to what anarchism really is about: freedom, community and self-determinaton.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:29 PM PDT

I have to ask you, which anarchist movement have you been part of? The booklet by Crimethinc is very reflective of the anarchist milieu in North America and Europe. To me, it seems just like the creative stuff that I\'ve seen in anarchist zines over the years. It\'s very anarchist in that it talks about taking control of your lives and in poetic words: \"killing the policeman and state in your head.\" This is what anarchism is about after all: anti-statism and self-determination.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:32 PM PDT

This is called \"political correctness.\" Instead of fighting the serious manifestations of racism and patriarchy in our culture, these people get all worked up about a picture in a publication. If they had used a different picture, they would have gotten shit too. If you went out and asked some person of color about the picture, the answers would vary, but they would probably agree that there are far more important things in the world to get worked up about.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:33 PM PDT

And who are you?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:36 PM PDT

Who fucking gives a shit where the money came from? I have my doubts about these trust fund accusations, but I could care less if somebody with some money funded an anarchist project. As long as they aren\'t George Soros, more power to them.

If anybody with a trust fund wants to fund my projects, please get in touch!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 06:45 PM PDT

AMEN! One of the best posts in this thread, even though this thread has lots of great comments. I find it laughable that one person here thinks that Crimethinc has to be accountable to the anarchist movement, like all other AK Press publications and all of our magazines are subject to some kind fo mass vote.

Ridiculous.

Yes, these people don\'t understand that these publications aren\'t directed at other anarchists. Thank god! We have enough publications that are way overpacked with articles aimed at other anarchists. Our movement here in North America has grown in recent years because we TALKED TO NON-ANARCHISTS. That\'s one of the goals of this website, Infoshop.org, which has been rater successful. Infoshop didn\'t become popular because it just had lots of anarchist article, it succeeded because it took anarchist and radical ideas and made them relevant to working people.

It\'s quite easy to criticize other anarchists for their work; it\'s much harder to put the time and effort into creating something that has a lasting impact.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 08:02 PM PDT

Well, this is a pamphlet about anarchism. I think the first thing we should think about is: does this portray anarchism correctly? And I think it is true, there is no \"authoritative\" definition of anarchism, everyone has thier own ideas, that\'s only natural, and a good thing. But are there any really serious misrepresentations of anarchism here? And, I think if you define \"anarchism\" the way most people define it, that is, throwing off the master slave relationships which have steadily built up in our society, then you have to admit that there\'s quite a lot of stuff in this pamphlet which really has nothing to do with that. That\'s likely to be confusing to people who read the booklet, at best, if they are unfamiliar with anarchism.

Anarchism means to throw off the chains of groupthink and slavery, not \"go crazy\" (I mean, it doesn\'t mean you should do things which aren\'t accepted just because they aren\'t accepted). If you want to \"go crazy\", that isn\'t anarchism, that has nothing to do with liberty-- carried to its ultimate extreme, you could be \"anarchistic\" by jumping off a cliff, to demonstrate your \"nonconformance\". Nonconformance only has a purpose when you\'re doing it because you want to improve your life or the lives of others-- if it doesn\'t improve life, then there\'s no point. Whether people consider it conformist or not is irrelevant insofar as whether you should do it or not-- improvement the only thing that is relevant (of course, how you define that is open to a very wide degree of interpretation). So that is a serious misreprestation as far as I can see.

You can see above for some other comments by me.

So look, I\'m not trying to bash this paper or anything, but I think the people at crimethinc need to calm down and think about reality some more. \"Going crazy\" is not the point of anarchism... we\'re trying to create happy lives for ourselves and others, not roam around aimlessly experiencing \"anarchy\". That has nothing to do with liberty as far as I can see.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 10:56 PM PDT

let\'s outlaw anonymous speech!

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Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, October 18 2002 @ 11:01 PM PDT

You forgot to add that you will also have to say that you are not the Leon Czolgosz kind of anarchist, or the Nestor Makhno kind of anarchist, or the Anarchist Cookbook kind of anarchist, or the anarcho-capitalist kind of anarchist, or the 1337 H4XX0R kind of anarchist, or ... is my point clear yet?

also, in regards to the childcare thing ... *shrug* ... well, you can\'t win for losing. if you talk about supporting single moms then you are sketchy; if you don\'t talk about it then you are ignoring their issues. I give up. I will continue to offer support in the ways that I see fit and if you want to change words around and make my intention seem sketchy or whatever then go right ahead. Just be sure that you can tell those single mothers why they are fools for allowing me and people like me to babysit or organize child care for them. It\'s a good thing that you know what\'s best for everyone, just like Thomas Jefferson. Yeah baby!

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