Gorean Whispers Channel Discussion
Monday 22nd September, 2003

Children of Gor

(Crell) Well, this looks like a decent starting crowd. jess, your logger all setup?

(jess{HMLK}) Yes, Master

(Crell) Good.

(Crell) Greetings and welcome, all. Tonight's topic, Children of Gor. How if at all do children fit into a Gorean relationship?

(Crell) Are the guidelines similar to BDSM relationships, "keep it behind the bedroom door", or is it more overt? When is a child ready to deal with the fact that his parents are Gorean? And what sort of Gorean indoctrination and upbringing is appropriate for a child, and at what age?

(swan{Ursa}) If the Master in the relationship wishes to have children, swan believes that children will fit well, as long as some modifications are made.

(Crell) What sorts of modifications? I suspect you and Ursa have a unique perspective on this subject. ;-(

(swan{Ursa}) Yes Master :( swan does not call Master, "Master" .. instead she tends to use pronouns .. "he" etc .. or lovey names .. *grinz* .. like "honey" or "darling". She also doesn't kneel and instead of verbal commands watches for certain looks from Master as silent commands, that are well understood.

(Ursa) If we acknowledge that "Gorean-ness" is a pervasive part of the relationship, then any Gorean couple with children will necessarily be exposing their children to Gorean values.

(Aahzmandius) Exactly, Ursa. It's the values that the kids see from me the most.

(Ursa) Really, the modifications mostly come down to keeping the sexual part of our relationship private, while allowing the values to show through.

* swan{Ursa} thinks the girls here must be bored stiff hearing the way swan and Master handle their children .. *grinz* .. they must have read it often enough on the list ;)

(Ursa) swan overtly acknowledges me as head of the house, for example. swan's collar does not come off, though the children know it as a "necklace" rather than a collar.

(Crell) Does that ever cause any problems with their more PC friends when/if such friends come over?

(Ursa) You know, I hadn't thought of that question Crell.....if the children's friends have a problem with it they haven't said anything that I know of.

(swan{Ursa}) The children *know* that swan needs permission for certain
things .. especially with money, or going places. We were concerned at
first because of the collar - it is steel and locked on permanently.

(Crell) Turian style or flat?

(Ursa) Turian

(Aahzmandius) It does with some couples that I know. But they can either accept it, or not come over.

(Crell) Ah, that makes it easier. Then it has an internal lock, not a padlock, I presume.

(Ursa) My daughter (12) said she'd like one someday (not knowing what that
means) but wouldn't' like it to be locked on her neck. ;)

(Crell) heh.

* antigone` smiles

* jess{HMLK} smiles

(Aahzmandius) One of Dreamer's?

(Ursa) No....made by another, but similar to Dreamer's

(Crell) That's the one with the little screw to lock it, right?

(Ursa) Right

* Crell nods. Good design.

(swan{Ursa}) swan has tried to teach the children that males in the household are to be pleased by females .. they tend to take that as gospel now.

(jess{HMLK}) There is a girl in jess' office that has been wearing a silver chain with a padlock every day for the last 2 weeks...turns out she bought it at the mall!

(Ursa) They have also met friends who are Gorean, so know that swan and I aren't unique in our outlook on living.

(Crell) That probably helps.

(antigone`) may a girl ask if you have boys or girls, or both, Master Ursa and swan?

(swan{Ursa}) We have one boy 10, two girls aged 12 and 14 soon to be 15. Then there are swan's two sons in Australia - 21 and 24 - both who know of our lifestyle, even to the degree that swan is slave to Master.

* antigone` smiles - a girl was just wondering how it will be for them when they start to date and realize all dynamics may not work out like how they do with you

(swan{Ursa}) swan thinks antigone .. that the girls might look for the traits that they see in their father .. after all .. don't all young girls?

* antigone` smiles

(Crell) That should make it interesting. When did the two boys find out? Or when did you tell them?

(swan{Ursa}) and as for the boy .. he will want to be like his father, one would presume.

(Ursa) I'm sure it will be difficult for them antigone......it was for me. I grew up in a home that was quite Gorean in its outlook on male/female relationships. Dating girls who hadn't come from the same type of home was quite a shock.

(Crell) Not always, swan. People tend to end up as their parents whether they want to or not, but that doesn't mean they want to or try to.

(swan{Ursa}) Yes Master Crell .. that's true.

(swan{Ursa}) swan's boys were told a few years ago Master Crell .. it was difficult at first .. but they have seen their mother smile more than they have ever seen before .. and to them .. that's what matters.

(Aahzmandius) Mine wasn't Gorean in outlook. Yet I had the same problems, Ursa.

(Crell) Was it Gorean, Ursa, or "Gor-like traditional"?

(Ursa) "Gor-like" traditional would be a good description. My parents would be horrified at the notion of female slavery. Yet my mother is effectively a slave to my father in every meaningful way.

(Crell) I know my mother was nothing like her mother, quite deliberately. For which I am quite thankful. :-)

(antigone`) a girl hasn't any children , but she imagines an easy way to "introduce" them to the concept of Gor is to give them the books to read...many have read the books when they were 15 or so...

(Crell) Which brings up another question. What is a reasonable age for someone to start learning about Gor, academically or personally?

(Ursa) That may work. I know that GreyWolf and winyela's girls were introduced to Gor in that way.

(Crell) How did they respond?

(Ursa) I believe one daughter is quite interested, another is accepting, and a third couldn't care less Crell

* iris{HMLK} kneels at the door ...may iris enter Please Masters

(Ursa) Still, odds are that our children will reject their parents way of life. Rebellion against parents values seems to be the norm in children.

(Crell) Yes, but bear in mind how and why, Ursa.

(swan{Ursa}) swan doesn't believe anyone has any control over that Master Crell .. but as an opinion, in the true sense of knowing everything about Gor and what it takes to live it truly? swan thinks around mid twenties.

(Crell) Enter and sit, iris. Welcome.

(Aahzmandius) Totally, Ursa? Or just for a few years until it really sinks in?

(Crell) Children need to rebel against something in order to help form their own unique identity, but the "teen rebel angst" issues of today are exacerbated by poor parenting.

* Ursa shrugs....depends on the child Aahzmandius. But it's true that most of us end up resembling our parents, whether we like to or not. ;)

(Crell) Yep.

* Aahzmandius wishes that was true. I'd have more hair

(Crell) lol.

* antigone` smiles

* swan{Ursa} laughs

* Ursa laughs

(Ursa) The difficult part about having children in a Gorean home is that many of the "trappings" are inappropriate in front of children.

(Crell) As to your point, swan, there is some control that parents have. And no one ever knows "everything" about anything. ;-)

(swan{Ursa}) Again true Master Crell .. there are no absolutes with these questions.

(Aahzmandius) Well, My brother ended up like my parents. Sister ended up in the more leading role in her marriage.
And by their thinking, I'm way out there.

(Ursa) For example, I'm hosting a tavern party next month. Naturally it's on a weekend when the children are with their mother.

(Crell) For instance, if Ursa chooses to introduce his kids to Gor via letting them read the books, at what age should they be given a copy of Tarnsman and told "here, you may enjoy this"? 15? 19? 21 when they can go get drunk afterwards? :-(

(Ursa) I really think that it's entirely appropriate for children to absorb the philosophy. Especially the ideas about honor among men.

(Aahzmandius) And loads on the personal responsibility part

(Crell) That's one that should be there from the beginning in practice.

(Ursa) I really wouldn't push the books at them until late teen years. I might allow them to read the books as early as early teens. My kids have seen the books. They're prominently displayed on the bookshelves. But they've never shown any interest.

(Aahzmandius) The way my kids are starting to go thru books, they'll probally find them at around 13-14

(Crell) I have a 15 year old girl who is interested in reading them. I'm keeping an eye on her, just in case. (Not a daughter, a friend I know.(

(Aahzmandius) This your "wench", Crell?

(Crell) No, she's 19 and local. The 15 year old is in California. :-)

(Ursa) There's nothing wrong with kids reading the books. In today's social climate it's doubtful they'd make the connection to literally applying them to a lifestyle anyway.

(swan{Ursa}) swan believes that *young* girls will be more titillated by the Master/slave presentation in the books, rather than absorb true philosophy.

* Ursa nods to swan. Exactly so. Most kids dont' have the maturity to pull a philosophy from the books.

(antigone`) a girl read story of o when she was 16, albeit a bdsm book, it really got her interest...

* Aahzmandius grins

(antigone`) books read at a young age do have an impact, a girl thinks :)

(Crell) True, Ursa. Many would interpret them as mediocre pulp erotica. I probably would have for the first several books had I not gone into it with a philisophical angle from the get-go.

(Ursa) They're pretty mild by today's "erotica" standards.

(Crell) Yep.

(jess{HMLK}) a good deal LESS so, Master

* Aahzmandius nods to both men. My thoughts as well

(Ursa) Certainly no more explicit than the typical "bodice ripper"

(Crell) Which is perhaps why I've heard they are more popular with women than with men. Many read like they should be in the Romance section.

(Crell) Back to children. Aside from "lead by example," are there any ways that parents can or should raise their children in a "Gorean" fashion? I direct that especially towards the parents in the room, as I do not have any children of my own yet. ;-)

(Ursa) The main question is whether any philosophy will leak into a typical teen's head at all. Today's society constantly bombards our children with messages that are anti-Gorean. Or rather anti-"the things Goreans believe
in" I think that it's important not to simply lead by example. You've got
to point out the things you want your children to learn.

* swan{Ursa} 's blood boils with all the commercials on TV that present men as idiots while the wives are the intelligent ones. Master is always telling swan to calm down when she sees them.

(Ursa) Examples: the man is the head of the house. Being the head means taking responsibility for the results. etc.

(antigone`) swan a girl has written companies complaint letters about that...and doesn't buy their products :( a girl doesn't like that either

(swan{Ursa}) good for you antigone ;)

* Crell applauds the girl at his feet. :-)

(Crell) I'd venture a guess that social outcast teens ("nerds", "freaks",
etc.( would be more open to learning a philosophy from the books, as they are less affected by Mass Marketing(tm) by nature. That's why they're outcasts.

(Aahzmandius) Results both good & bad.

* Crell nods

(Ursa) swan's point is a good one too. You need to point out to your children just how anti-male our society has become and explain why that's not a good thing.

(Aahzmandius) My daughter, 9, asked me about that just the other day. Cause of something she saw. Told her that most things on tv just weren't worth watching, and explained to her some more of why. So did my wife.

* Ursa nods

(swan{Ursa}) swan has made our girls well aware of that too Master .. they too see it now and it's made a true impression upon them.

(Ursa) It all boils down to doing the things that every parent should do: raise your children to be the best people they can be. If I believe that the Gorean lifestyle is a good one, why would I not teach my children in its ways?

(Ursa) That being said, there's a cautionary note too....Don't reveal things that your children aren't ready for.

(Crell) Always.

* Aahzmandius nods

(Ursa) Don't reveal things that may get you in trouble with the law.

(Crell) Indeed. Knowing when they are ready for what is the hard part.

(Aahzmandius) Also, that it is not a "popular" viewpoint with society at large

(Ursa) If your children go to school and tell the teacher that "Daddy keeps mommy as a slave," you may expect a visit from the authorities.

(Crell) Given the social system we live in, would a poly relationship then be incompatible with children?

(Aahzmandius) Shouldn't be. But most likely is.

(jess{HMLK}) not necessarily, Master Crell. jess has friends that live in a poly relationship with their combined children, and the kids are all remarkably well adjusted

(Aahzmandius) The kids may be, jess, but what about the parents of their friends, the pta, neighbors, etc.

(jess{HMLK}) One of the things the parents make sure to do is to schedule a parent teacher conference with ALL of the parents attending, at the begining of the school year, so the teacher gets to know them as a unit

(Crell) Does it ever cause trouble with the kids' friends and their parents? Or get confusing at parent-teacher conferences? :-)

(jess{HMLK}) only when in 2nd grade Erin told her teacher that her mommy's wife was pregnant

(Crell) That must have been fun....

(antigone`) a girl thinks schools are getting used to unique family structures...

(Crell) Depends where, antigone.

(jess{HMLK}) The teacher called her a liar and her mother went teacher hunting

(Crell) Urban schools are probably used to all sorts of weirdness now, and would prefer poly parents to one or no parents, which they see more and more.

(Aahzmandius) Mixed poly parents

(Ursa) I think jess's point is a good one. Of course none of us believe that it's bad for children to live in a Gorean setting. I suspect the reception the news would get from the authorities depends on who's in the local office. Still "Man keeps wife as slave" would make for "news at eleven."

(Crell) Yep. California would probably be more accepting than the bible belt.

* Ursa nods to Crell

(Crell) And on the specific teacher. You can always fine easy-going teachers who won't mind, as well as the strict Catholic Mrs. Grundy who would hold up a cross to ward away the evil spirits from your house.

(Aahzmandius) What about the rural schools, Crell? Would that also make a difference

(Crell) Probably depend on the rural, Aahz. Areas where single-parents are more common may be more welcoming of poly parents, because at least it's parents.

(Ursa) Legally, children can't be taken unless they're in danger. As a practical matter, though, the local authorities can do an awful lot of damage even if there's no danger at all.

(Aahzmandius) And seeing as they are the one's who decide if there is danger. Makes the problem even more likely

(antigone`) and it could cause trouble if there is a divorced parent involved , or a custody situation..

(Crell) Very true, antigone.

(Crell) "Child in danger of knowing what sex is before they get married." If they get upset about that, then a non-PC family would definitely be seen as emotionally dangerous. There is also then the risk of children ratting out their parents when/if they are upset for some reason, as teens often are.

* Ursa nods to Crell...another good reason. There's a segment of society that would find any non-PC family situation to be dangerous. This is similar to the right wing folds who find gay parents to be dangerous to children not to reveal too much.

(Aahzmandius) Oh man, I'm in troubl. One of the things that I've been teaching my kids is to pay attention to everything in their surrondings.

(Crell) Uh oh. ;-(

(Ursa) Anyway, there's plenty to teach kids about being Gorean without going into the parts that might lead to trouble. If my son takes nothing else from my teachings, I hope he gets the idea that he is responsible for whatever he does in life....no one else.

* Crell nods

(Ursa) I hope he takes to the idea that it is good and right to be honorable in ones dealings with others.

(Aahzmandius) It is a very good starting point

(Aahzmandius) And I think that the first one leads into the second, Ursa

(Ursa) I agree completely.

(Crell) And hopefully your daughters will learn the same. Even if they don't pick up natural order, we can hope they pick up honor. That is more lacking in society today.

(Aahzmandius) True Crell, but it's everybody elses fault (g)

(Crell) Naturally. ;-)

(Aahzmandius) Just fixing the responsibility issue would help dramatically with the other

(Ursa) I think we can, at least, help our daughters see that a girl can be happy with a man who is in charge. Hell, part of the difficulty girls today often have, is that they go after the "bad boys" because they're all "manly."

* antigone` smiles thinking of the "bad boys"

(Ursa) Problem is that those same bad boys often don't carry any responsibility.

(Crell) Precisely.

(Crell) They're attractive in a brute male way, but not responsible in a Masculine way.

(Ursa) We can help our daughters see that the traits they're looking for in the bad boys can be found in good alpha men (not using that phrase, of course(.

(Crell) If I had to pick one, I'd much rather girls learn to avoid those sorts of guys, as they are self-destructive, and go for men who are honorable, than learn to serve. They'll live longer. Often the traits they think they see in the bad boys are not really there, they just pretend they are. That's what makes them "bad", they have to go out of their way to pretend to be butch and dominant.

True Crell....but too often, the ideals that society pushes on our children about honorable men look more like the "sensitive man" than the alpha man.

(antigone`) on the other hand though, what makes a boy look "honorable" might not be there either....

* Crell nods

(antigone`) a girl made the mistake of confusing intelligence with strength and married the guy

(Aahzmandius) Actions vs words, antigone

(Ursa) The problem, of course, is that boys aren't men, and won't become men simply by the fact that they've passed some magic age.

(antigone`) a girl guesses he is honorable in his way..just not in the Gorean type of way... he is now her ex-husband :)

(Crell) Which is a whole different can of worms, Gorean honor vs non-Gorean honor. :-)

* Crell jots that down for a later week's topic.

* antigone` laughs

(Aahzmandius) I didn't know that there was a distinction, Crell

(Crell) That's the question. Is there?

(iris{HMLK}) Masters may iris depart she is very tired?

(Ursa) You may go iris. Well wishes to your master.

(Aahzmandius) Ursa, it seems like the kids get coddled for so long these days that they never do seem to grow up

(Crell) That's part of the larger symptom of "victim culture", Aahz. Nothing is ever someone's own fault, saying that could hurt their self-esteem.

(Ursa) That's true. Frankly I'm quite concerned about that particular issue in my children and, in particular in my boy.

(Crell) Why is that?

(Ursa) An example: His school constantly gives the kids the message that competition is wrong....except against oneself.

(Aahzmandius) Let's see the school prove it. Have the kids share answers on their next math test... Malk!

(Malkinius) Tal......and greetings... Ursa.....it has been way WAY too long...

(Ursa) Indeed it has

* Malkinius grins... AAAAHHHHHHHZZZIIIIII!!!!!

(Ursa) Last year my son had to deal with a playground bully. He was told that fighting back might get him suspended.

(antigone`) a girl thinks it is beautiful and wonderful when parents are actually good parents..she thinks Goreans tend to be good parents and its one of many things she loves about her ex-Master

(Crell) That was the policy at my school, too. Any fighting, everyone is suspended.

* Aahzmandius nods. Same in my kid's school. And if it happened, I would explain why he did wrong, and why he did right, and why the school was both wrong & right

(Ursa) Society is teaching children that they need not take...should not...take care of themselves.

(Malkinius) true....regretfully....

(Aahzmandius) They tell the adults that as well. And worse, people
believe it.

* Ursa nods to Aahzmandius.... I told him that if the kid hit him he was to do his best to flatten the kids nose. A suspension will be over in a day or two. The respect from defending himself will last a lot longer.

(Crell) Indeed. The trick is teaching people that they should take care of each other without teaching them that they shouldn't take care of themselves. Unfortunately society today teaches it backwards.

* Ursa nods to Crell....exactly so

* Crell is a firm believer in a society caring for its own, overtly.

(Ursa) I'd modify that to say that society has the obligation to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves. It does not have the obligation of taking care of those who will not care for themselves.

(Aahzmandius) Well said

(Crell) You are very correct. The Eleanor Roosevelt attitude. :-) So how does one instill that attitude (which I presume is an honorable one) in a child?

(Ursa) Tell him exactly that. Give examples.

(Malkinius) even with examples....that does not mean they will get it.

(Malkinius) Crell....what happens when society wants to be left alone?

(Crell) Malkinius: Everyone has the right to turn down assistance if it is offered. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be offered.

(Malkinius) I know that problem all too well...

(Crell) (And I think I know where you're headed with that, so before we get off topic... (g)

(Ursa) Of course Malkinius...but that's a more general problem. Kids don't always get what we want them to learn.

(Malkinius) I am bringing it back around....and it is on topic.

(Ursa) Sometimes they don't get it until they're older. Sometimes they never get it. As parents we cannot guarantee our children happy healthy lives. We can only do our best to show them how.

(Malkinius) how can we be men when we have some entitiy doing its best to make sure it does everything for us we should be doing for ourselves? thus...how can be give good examples to our children...when...as pointed out....others want to do all the work or protecting them?

(Crell) My liberal arts upbringing is showing through again here. The most important thing to teach children is to have an open mind, and how to think. I'd much rather a child disagree with me 100% and be able to justify it than blindly agree with me.

(Malkinius) depends on the age of the child....but once they are fully rational...I would agree with you.

(Crell) What? Malkinius agrees with me? It's a red letter day! :-)

* Malkinius grins...

(Aahzmandius) Fully rational, and willing to listen to the other half of the arguement with a mind that is willing to change

(Malkinius) hey.....even you get it right some of the time....and can certainly say it before I get there.

* Malkinius grins...

* Ursa chuckles....as few critical thinking skills as our children are taught these days, I'd be happy if my kids could justify pretty much any position.

(Aahzmandius) With thought, not just by rote

(Crell) Exactly.

(Ursa) Hmmmmm....just noticed Malkinius' comment about "fully rational." Not many get to that place. :/

(Malkinius) yeah....besides...it can be fun.

(Malkinius) drats...thought I would slip that one by.

* Ursa chuckles

(Malkinius) my son and I have been arguing for a while about the existance and necessity of time.

(Crell) I enjoy a good argument, and can generally argue either side decently.

(Malkinius) that sort of counts as rational.

(Crell) Oooo... How old is he?

(Malkinius) 14.5....

(Malkinius) 15 in January.

(Crell) Nice. Sounds like a dinner conversation at my house back in the day. ;-) Politics, economics, sociology, and quantum strings. Whatever was on Star Trek that night. ;-)

(Malkinius) quoting Hawkings? ...et al? now this is getting us

(Crell) Yes.

* Crell hauls the conversation back on track.

* Malkinius laughs....

(Crell) To go back an hour or so, what sorts of things can parents do to live Gorean themselves, without unduely disturbing the children?

(Crell) Eg, Ursa and swan mentioned eye-gestures as commands. What "overt" Gorean activities are kosher around children?

(Aahzmandius) Well in my case, it's get to bed so I can go to cub scouts tomorrow. And that said, I hope to see you all soon.

(Crell) hehe.

(Ursa) Be well Aahzmandius

(Ursa) I don't think I restrict myself to eye gestures as commands. It's my nature to sometimes ask and sometimes tell swan to do things for me. That doesn't change because the children are in the house. ;) swan has been known to sit at my feet, even with children in the house.

(Crell) But she does wear more clothing when they are around. ;-)

(Ursa) Yes, she does dress appropriately when the children are here. Though, of course, the collar never leaves her pretty neck. And she wears ankle bells.

(Ursa) Hmmmm...."overtly Gorean".....swan does not touch her plate of food at the dinner table until given permission, even in front of the children. Sometimes, though, permission is in the form of me taking the first bite.

(Ursa) The kids know swan is marked with my initial. They've seen the mark. The kids hear me refer to swan as "my girl."

(Crell) Are you and she legally married? Or just cohabitating?

(Ursa) Married. I had to marry her to import her from Australia.

* Ursa chuckles

(Crell) hehe. Duty-free slaves.

(Ursa) Though I'd have married her anyway....too many advantages in terms of spousal benefits from work.

* Crell nods

(Ursa) The kids have seen me verbally correct swan. That's difficult for her, and not done lightly.

(Crell) On what sorts of things, and how severely?

(Ursa) If not done judiciously it can cause problems in the girl's relationship with her master's children. I want the children to relate to her primarily as a step-parent. That means she needs to have authority over them, which she will not if I correct her in the same way I correct the kids.

* Crell nods

(Ursa) I can't think of a specific example to tell you about right now. The corrections are mild (though they carry the threat of more severe correction in private).

(Ursa) Folks, I'm going to have to go now.

(Crell) Be well, Ursa.

(antigone`) a girl wishes you well Master Ursa, she hopes swan feels better

(Crell) Thank you for coming again, it was great having you here.

(Malkinius) Be well Ursa....

(Ursa) Before I go, though, I want to state that I dont' think my way is
necessarily THE WAY. It's what works for me in my particular situation.
The most important thing is for a man to figure out what works and then have the balls to do it.

* Ursa winks I wish you all most well.

(Malkinius) figuring out what works is the hard part. that is why we are here.

(Crell) I suppose that's as good a place to close the topic for the night as any.