Iod

Sadly I don't have the WWS up yet, but in a Windfury group our Ret Pally hit #5 on Gruul last night (in partial greens, no less). If your Ret pally is appropriately geared and Windfury is available, a Ret Pally certainly would be a viable addition.

In addition, Improved Sanctity Aura (2% Group Damage Bonus) and the talented Seal of the Crusader (additional Crit) should at least provide some compelling utility. Crusader might gimp the Paladin's personal dps, but might at least convince a Raid Leader that he'd be worth taking.

Sorry for the lack of hard numbers at the moment, hopefully I can get you an example log this evening.

 

tarja

Last night in the first night of raiding since the 2.3 patch, I could've sworn that I was proccing JoW far more than normal. My combat log would often have 2 or 3 lines in a row of "You gain 74 mana...". It seemed to me like JoW was proccing off the "immune to vindication" combat result (where vindication procs a TON).

Unfortunately I can't verify it for sure, since it seems like WWS is completely busted or something. I've been trying to load our WWS report for hours now and my position in the queue just keeps getting higher.

Has anyone else noticed this to confirm or deny whether I'm crazy? If this is true, (and if it doesn't get "fixed" by Blizzard), it would be a huge source of mp5. I'll edit this post if I can ever get the WWS report loaded, and figure out whether it's true.

 

Prepared

If that's true, I know where I'm going to put my spare point in, from Imp. Judgement (I accidentally took both points. Habit!)

 

Cathmor

With a 6 second Crusader Strike, is only 1/2 Improved Judgement advantageous for the DPS cycle in lining up cooldowns? I specced to 5/10/46, grabbing Guardian's Favor for some utility in thinking that Vindication does nothing in raids - however, some people are saying that Vindication will proc JoWisdom even if the mob is immune, which means I want at least a point in there. If I move the points from Guardian's Favor and 1 point from Imp. Judgement, that gives me 5/8/48 with everything in ret that I want and Vindication.

Summary - will a 9 second cooldown Judgement be good for a raid DPS cycle?

 

Iconoclast

So about 12 pages back or so there was some discussion about the value of armor penetration stats on gear...

Was it ever resolved? Did we come up with a determination for it?
How do these values compare for SoC as well ass SoB?

 

Prepared

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was determined earlier in the thread, and it's also the default setting in the spreadsheet to have only 1 point in Imp. Judgement. I had 2/2 last night, and noticed myself mashing my Judgement/SoC whenever it came up, and having to wait a few times on the GCD so I could Crusader Strike.

 

Agrippina

Hierarchy of ret stats (with kings factored in):

Str->Crit/Agi/Ap-> Armor pen/Haste

It's a solid DPS coefficient, but it isn't quite there. For me, the question is savagery vs. executioner atm. I wonder if anyone has some figures for the worth of those.

 

flyingtoastr

I'm willing to bet a rather large sum of money that if Vindication is proccing JoW it is a bug that will be fixed soon, much like the JoW proccing off Judgement refreshes bug on the PTRs. Not worth sinking any points into in a pure raiding build unless it is an intended change.

If you look in the first post there is a little diagram that shows DPS cycles with 9 second and 8 second Judgement. The 9 second does come out ahead, but the effect is so marginal I wouldn't really worry about picking up 2 points in it.

 

fingoldin

I actually found that having 2/2 in there isn't so bad. You can put 1 point into BoM or Deflection, to get to the third tier, but I think just doing 2/2 imp judgment is better overall. The reason being that you can hold off on judgements for an additional second to make sure you weave in your CS at the appropriate time in your cycle, but the shortened cooldown makes it notably easier when you have to switch targets and quickly get a JotC on the new target quickly.

The one thing which I find most annoying and, also, most torn on what I should do, is when you are switching targets fairly often. If your judgment cooldown isn't up, you don't want to waste the mana casting SoB / SoC only to switch to SotC to get off a judgment and then recast your dps seal... wasted seal cast that isn't judged, which if you do that often, adds up (unless you're using rank 1 SoC). But then again, you don't want to just sit there swinging with SotC waiting for your judgment cooldown because that is a pretty decent hit to your sustained dps, and, well, 3% crit buff on things when you need to burn it down fast isn't a bad thing. So, the 2/2 imp judgment helps with that a little bit by making the window that I am sitting there waiting to judge SotC that much smaller so I can get back into my normal damage rotations.

I just found that, yeah, in theory, a 9 second cooldown is better and no reason to put 2 points in it... in practice, it is nice to have 2 points for when you do need to judge quickly to get up those debuffs for the raid.

 

Astinus

Are these the two talent spec's for Retribution now?


With Precision

I couldnt quite figure out where to put the last point saved from Imp. Judgement.


Without Precision

I had 7 points left over. I put 5 in 10% INT and 2 in Pursuit of Justice. I was unsure where to place them.

 

noth

I was feeling rather underwhelmed by the effects of imp BoM, so chose to put the 5 pts into Pursuit of Justice and Guardian's Fervor instead. As for that last point... as the poster above you said, I am finding that having the 2nd point in Imp. Judgement isn't bad, so long as you pay attention to your DPS cycle and prefer CS over judgement when they're both up.

 

hawaiisb

I agree too that imp BoM is underwhelming to spend 5 points on. I would leave this for the holy pallys to get since we usually get the same pally to buff imp BoW and imp BoM.

The spec I went for was:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec gets everything i need really. I just wish I had 1 more point to finish off Sanctified Seals.

 

Prepared

Here's my WWS for last night's raiding. Six bosses in an evening is a new record for our guild. I didn't do as well the night before, thanks to instance servers going down at Solarian at 30%, then before Hydross (whom we logged in to kill past raid time).

Wow Web Stats

A few notes, the [Red Belt of Battle], [Cloak of Darkness], and [Ancestral Ring of Conquest] are all new from post-raid. I am somewhat of a loot sponge, since our melee team has most of the stuff that I want already. Lucky me.

 

Rasputin

I'm curious, why would you take 3/3 vindication and 3/3 PoJ over 3/3 Sanctified Seals? It seems to me that in either PvE or PvP, the extra crit and completely undispellable seals would be a better choice than the third point in either of those other talents.

As for Imp BoM, it would certainly be the first thing I'd lose if I wanted to hybridize my build somewhat. But in a pure raiding build, the 44 AP for everyone who hits the mob seems to be the best option(also on the understanding that none of the other paladins have it, as they all prefer to go deeper into holy or prot).

 

Prepared

Those are exactly the reasons why I have it. Considering all but two of our guild's druids are Feral (one Resto, one Doomkin), and it benefits all our Warriors, our token Rogue, token Enh. Shaman, and myself, that's usually 9-10 people per raid that gain a direct benefit for their damage and aggro generation - however small that may be.

I'm happy with the speed increase on my boots, instead of putting three talent points to achieve basically the same effect. The question is not what would benefit the Paladin more, but the Raid more.

 

Strifen

Just came in to say that I absolutely now love the new speed increase from PoJ. For any heavy movement fight it makes a huge difference to be zipping around at 15% run speed, this also means I can put 12 agi on my boots. So really PoJ is 15% run speed and .50% crit because you can swap that boars speed enchant to agi (if you're one of those people who refuses to play without run speed of some kind).

Now I cant wait to get another piece of +hit gear so I can drop all of these points out of prot. I'm planning to do something like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for a pure PvE DPS ret/support build. Having improved lay on hands is going to be great, if you're one of those healers that recently went ret and you're accustomed to watching tank HP you can save a wipe if you get a fast LoH in there if you have an assist + loh key macro (assists of the mob you're attacking and then lohs). The 30% armor boost is really nice for any fight, you can just wait until 20% pop your loh and then mana pot. You should be able to use it almost every other or every boss fight if you're marching through bt/hyjal.

 

Agonar

Is it worth adding the benefit of Judgement Of Wisdom when Wanding? We, in my guild, sometime do that on long fight.

Maybe something in the form of:

0.50(74(60 / S) / 12) = M

S = Wand Speed
M = Mana Regen

 

Renaud

Does anyone have any solid information on Healing Done/HPS for Judgement of Light? (Similar to the JoWisdom information availiable in post #1?

 

CaptBooyah

Probably a good idea to also include 5 or so of the most used wands amongst casters, starting with the fastest wands.

This was done somewhat in this thread here, altho as it is highly dependent on attack speed (and abilities used), its almost impossible to give an accurate average for anyone. So many variables to add in.. weapon speeds, attack rotations, haste effects, extra attacks...

 

Renaud

Blue Diamond Witchwand - Speed 1.5

0.50(74(60 / S) / 12) = M

Where S=Wand Speed and M=Mp5

.5(74(60/1.5)/12)=M
.5(74(40)/12)=M
.5(2960/12)=M
.5(246.66)=M

123.33MP5

EDIT: Yeah, I was just wanting something along the lines of... Rogue1 = SwordSpec - 2.8/1.4speed weapons = ###HPS

I would do these myself, but I do not know any of the special ability uses per minutes etc (due to energy regen)

The more I think about this the more I understand why no one made a listing like this. Thanks for the link though.

 

LockApologist

I saw similar results in Kara clear. I was in top 2 (mostly 1) in a melee heavy (4-5 + 2 tank) Kara clear last night. DPS was mostly T4 level with a full merc Arms war (we were in Kara for the badges, not the gear, minus the undergeared spriest. There were about 4 non-sharded loots, 3 of which the spriest got).

Melee grp was rog/rog/prot war/enhc shm/ret then later rog/arms war/enhc shm/ret/MM hunt. So, WF, SoE, UR, BS were all in use. From pre-patch, my average dps went up 100-120 DPS. Max dps up 200. (average was 775-800 range, topped at 1k vs Curator/Illhoof where dmg buffs in effect). The rogue was shadowstep, or he probably would have been top.

In short, I'm loving my Ret. The raid buffs are great, and the changes in 2.3 were a huge help.

 

noth

I saw similar results to Prepared, as well, even coming in #2 on Lurker with just shy of 1k DPS accoring to WWS, and just over it according to Recap. Considering I'd been hard pressed to hit 650 pre-patch, i was pretty pleased. About half-way through the run, they stopped giving me crap, too.

Wow Web Stats

The one thing i saw that kind of surprised me, was that even with 30% reduced threat, and salv, I rode the tanks threat the whole evening. I managed to fail noticing that my salv was down before our first Tidewalker attempt (our MT was having internet problems, kept DCing mid-fight, so we called it a few minutes early, and will be back tonight with a new modem for him), and spent about 2/3 of the attempt with auto-attack off, keeping up with the tanks threat through crusader strike alone. Ouch. :/

As for imp BOM, I have some vain hopes of getting the holy pali to actually spec an imp blessing... ANY imp blessing. *sigh* right now he's got 5/5 toughness and 4/5 Anticipation and please, don't ask me why because I couldn't explain it. At this point, I think I'm getting more benefit out of the added mobility of Pursuit of Justice and Guardians Fervor but I think that the imp BOM route is valid as well.

edit: spelling

 

flyingtoastr

Doesn't take into account anything other than regular weapon swings. Light is really too hard to model.

 

Agonar

"By default the energy bar is full, with 100 points of energy. After energy is spent on an ability, it regenerates fairly quickly (20 energy every 2 seconds) (catform 30 energy every 2 seconds), whether in combat or not."

Quote from a WoWWiki Articles, im not sure if everything there is really accurate but thats all we got(i think).

Heres the link: Energy - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

 

flyingtoastr

If you want a formula for JoL you would simply have to take the number of attacks you make with your main hand, off hand, and special attacks made within 1 minute. That will give you how many procs per minute you will see. In math it looks something like so:

( 60 / X * .50 ) + ( 60 / Y * .50 ) + ( S * .50 ) = P

X = Main hand speed
Y = Off hand speed
S = Number of special attacks per minute
P = Procs of JoL per minute

Since I can't ignore haste effects for Rogues and Warriors the actual formula becomes a bit more complex.

( ( K / X * .50 ) + ( K / Y * .50 ) ) + * ( H / X2 * .50 ) + ( H / Y2 * .50 ) ) + (S * .50 ) = P iff ( K + H ) = 60

X = Main hand speed (unhasted)
Y = Off hand speed (unhasted)
X2 = Main hand speed (hasted)
Y2 = Off hand speed (hasted)
S = Special attacks per minute
K = Time not hasted (seconds)
H = Time with haste (seconds)
P = Procs per minute

For this formula to work K + H must equal 60. Anything other than that will give you pretty nonsensical results.

If you wanted to find how much Hp5 that is you would simply have to convert the procs into heals and divide.

( P * 95 ) / 12 = Hp5 from JoL

So the final "master formula" for Hp5 JoL is as follows.

( ( ( ( K / X * .50 ) + ( K / Y * .50 ) ) + ( ( H / X2 * .50 ) + ( H / Y2 * .50 ) ) + (S * .50 ) ) * 95 ) / 12 = Hp5 from JoL iff ( K + H ) = 60

X = Main hand speed (unhasted)
Y = Off hand speed (unhasted)
X2 = Main hand speed (hasted)
Y2 = Off hand speed (hasted)
S = Special attacks per minute
K = Time not hasted (seconds)
H = Time with haste (seconds)

Excuse the obscene number of parentheses, I couldn't think of a more elegant way of doing it. This formula is nice because it works whether you have haste or not, and even works for people using 2 handers. Simply put a 0 for the variables that do not apply to you (such as all the off hand variables if you're using a 2 handed weapon). And please, before you try out the formula go look up the order of operations. That being said, if I made an error please correct me.

And now you see why modeling JoL is so hard, there are far too many variables.