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Saturday, November 18, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document I'm an atheist, BUT . . .

by Richard Dawkins

Of all the questions I fielded during the course of my recent book tour, the only ones that really depressed me were those that began "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." What follows such an opening is nearly always unhelpful, nihilistic or – worse – suffused with a sort of exultant negativity. Notice, by the way, the distinction from another favourite genre: "I used to be an atheist, but . . ." That is one of the oldest tricks in the book, practised by, among many others, C S Lewis, Alister McGrath and Francis Collins. It is designed to gain street cred before the writer starts on about Jesus, and it is amazing how often it works. Look out for it, and be forewarned.

I've noticed five variants of I'm-an-atheist-buttery, and I'll list them in turn, in the hope that others will recognize them, be armed against them, and perhaps extend the list by contributing examples from their own experience.

1. I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you! You want to get rid of religion? What planet are you living on? Religion is a fixture. Get over it!


I could bear any of these downers, if they were uttered in something approaching a tone of regret or concern. On the contrary. The tone of voice is almost always gleeful, and accompanied by a self-satisfied smirk. Anybody who opens with "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." can be more or less guaranteed to be one of those religious fellow-travellers who, in Dan Dennett's wickedly perceptive phrase, believes in belief. They may not be religious themselves, but they love the idea that other people are religious. This brings me to my second category of naysayers.

2. I'm an atheist, but people need religion. What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to comfort the bereaved? How are you going to fill the need?


I dealt with this in the last chapter of The God Delusion, 'A Much Needed Gap' and also, at more length, in Unweaving the Rainbow. Here I'll make one additional point. Did you notice the patronizing condescension in the quotations I just listed? You and I, of course, are much too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, the Orwellian proles, the Huxleian Deltas and Epsilon semi-morons, need religion. Well, I want to cultivate more respect for people than that. I suspect that the only reason many cling to religion is that they have been let down by our educational system and don't understand the options on offer. This is certainly true of most people who think they are creationists. They have simply not been taught the alternative. Probably the same is true of the belittling myth that people 'need' religion. On the contrary, I am tempted to say "I believe in people . . ." And this leads me to the next example.

3. I'm an atheist, but religion is one of the glories of human culture.


At a conference in San Diego which I attended at the end of my book tour, Sam Harris and I were attacked by two "I'm an atheist, but . . ." merchants. One of these quoted Golda Meir when she was asked whether she believed in God: "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God." Our smirking critic substituted his own version: "I believe in people, and people believe in God."

Religion, he presumably thought, is like a great work of art. Many works of art, rather, because different religions are so varied. I was reminded of Nicholas Humphrey's devastating indictment of an extreme version of this kind of thing, quoted in Chapter 9 of The God Delusion. Humphrey was discussing the discovery in the mountains of Peru of the frozen remains of a young Inca girl who was, according to the archaeologist who found her, the victim of a religious sacrifice. Humphrey described a television documentary in which viewers were invited . . .

" . . . to marvel at the spiritual commitment of the Inca priests and to share with the girl on her last journey her pride and excitement at having been selected for the signal honour of being sacrificed. The message of the television programme was in effect that the practice of human sacrifice was in its own way a glorious cultural invention – another jewel in the crown of multiculturalism . . ."


I share the outrage that Humphrey eloquently expressed: -

"Yet, how dare anyone even suggest this? How dare they invite us – in our sitting rooms, watching television – to feel uplifted by contemplating an act of ritual murder: the murder of a dependent child by a group of stupid, puffed up, superstitious, ignorant old men? How dare they invite us to find good for ourselves in contemplating an immoral action against someone else?"


It would be unfair to accuse our critic in San Diego of complicity in such an odious attitude towards the Inca 'ice maiden'. But I hope at least he will think twice before repeating that bon mot (as he obviously thought of it): "I believe in people, and people believe in God." I could have overlooked the patronizing condescension of his remark, if only he hadn't sounded so smugly satisfied by this lamentable state of affairs.

4. I'm an atheist, but you are only preaching to the choir. What's the point?


There are various points. One is that the choir is a lot bigger than many people think it is, especially in America. But, again especially in America, it is largely a closet choir, and it desperately needs encouragement to come out. Judging by the thanks I received all over North America, the encouragement that people like Sam Harris, Dan Dennett and I are able to give is greatly appreciated. So is this website, as I heard again and again. My thanks, yet again, to Josh.

A more subtle reason for preaching to the choir is the need to raise consciousness. When the feminists raised our consciousness about sexist pronouns, they would have been preaching to the choir where the more substantive issues of the rights of women and the evils of discrimination against them were concerned. But that decent, liberal choir still needed its consciousness raising with respect to everyday language. However right-on we may have been on the political issues of rights and discrimination, we nevertheless still unconsciously bought into linguistic conventions that made half the human race feel excluded.

There are other linguistic conventions that still need to go the same way as sexist pronouns, and the atheist choir is not exempt. We all need our consciousness raised. Atheists as well as theists unconsciously buy into our society's convention that religion has uniquely privileged status. I've already mentioned the convention that we must be especially polite and respectful to a person's faith. And I never tire of drawing attention to society's tacit acceptance that it is right to label small children with the religious opinions of their parents.

That's consciousness-raising, and atheists need it just as much as anybody else because atheists, too, have been lulled into overlooking the anomaly: religious opinion is the one kind of parental opinion that – by almost universal consent – can be battened upon children who are, in truth, too young to know what their opinion really is.

5. I'm an atheist, but I wish to dissociate myself from your intemperately strong language.


Sam Harris and I have both received criticism of this kind, and Nick Humphrey probably has too, for the quotation given above. Yet if you look at the language we employ, it is no more strong or intemperate than anybody would use if criticizing a political or economic point of view: no stronger or more intemperate than any theatre critic, art critic or book critic when writing a negative review. Our language sounds strong and intemperate only because of the same weird convention I have already mentioned, that religious faith is uniquely privileged: above and beyond criticism. On pages 20-21 of The God Delusion I gave a wonderful quote from Douglas Adams on the subject.

Book critics or theatre critics can be derisively negative and earn delighted praise for the trenchant wit of their review. A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a critic of religion employ a fraction of the same direct forthrightness, and polite society will purse its lips and shake its head: even secular polite society, and especially that part of secular society that loves to announce, "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ."

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1. Comment #7271 by Aussie on November 18, 2006 at 2:31 am

I'm an atheist but ... I want to have my cake and eat it too.

2. Comment #7272 by Dom on November 18, 2006 at 2:43 am

"Did you notice the patronizing condescension in the quotations I just listed? You and I, of course, are much too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, the Orwellian proles, the Huxleian Deltas and Epsilon semi-morons, need religion."

It may be patronising and condescending, but that may not stop it from being true.

Is it also patronising and condescending to suggest that 15m+ people in the UK will be glued to their tv sets to watch Big Brother, or that 10m+ people choose to read tabloid newspapers. With the notable exception of David Attenborough, science documentaries on tv are watched by a niche and increasingly smaller audience. Maybe the pessimistic view is the correct one - that people don't care much about science anymore, they can buy and use their next iPod without ever once stopping to consider the principles on which it works.

I think it is a fair, realistic (and difficult) question to ask what do we replace religion with. Not everyone (I'd even say the majority of the public) and not wowed by the mysteries and the wonders of science. If we're to change that (and we need to consider if thats something that we should change) we have to change the mindset of the pubic at large from the most basic levels and reinvigorate the image of science to schoolchildren, which is a Herculean task. This will also take many years, possibly even decades.

In the meantime, the question about how we replace God with awe of nature is a valid one, in my opinion and although we should and have made a start to addressing this, its something that we're going to have to keep returning to in the short and medium term

3. Comment #7273 by Aussie on November 18, 2006 at 2:52 am

I'm an aetheist but .... I find this website and RD's books very therapeutic. I also really enjoy being in the choir.

Funny though, I cannot yet bring myself to admit out loud to anyone that I am an aetheist. I even wince when I write it as it sounds so absolutist and it goes against my natural tendency not to pidgeon-hole anyone - particularly myself.

Given few more years in the choir I might even be able to sing in tune.

4. Comment #7275 by robzrob on November 18, 2006 at 2:59 am

I don't understand this 'what are we going to replace religion with' thing. Millions of us in Europe are not religious and we're getting on perfectly well without it already.

5. Comment #7276 by Aussie on November 18, 2006 at 3:29 am

"Not everyone (I'd even say the majority of the public) are wowed by the mysteries and the wonders of science. If we're to change that (and we need to consider if that's something that we should change) we have to change the mindset of the pubic at large from the most basic levels and reinvigorate the image of science to schoolchildren, which is a Herculean task. This will also take many years, possibly even decades."

I think that there is a lot of truth in this statement. I was brought up on a diet of Stephen Jay Gould. Many years ago my wife bought me my first Dawkin's book "The Blind Watchmaker". She also more recently bought me "The Ancestor's Tale" and then "The God Delusion". I bought all the others. So far so good.

However, the interesting thing is that she has never read any one of them. I attribute this to a lack of any innate interest in the wonders of science. She will probably never read them.

However, not all is lost. My elder brother, an academic theologian, mystic and himself the author of 28 books, has recently ordered a number of Dawkin's books and has begun reading. Where this will end I do not know but he became intrigued by my enthusiam and wondered what all the fuss was about.

6. Comment #7278 by Diplo on November 18, 2006 at 3:31 am

" I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you!"

This is, sadly, an argument you hear often and one that is unduly pessimistic in it's outlook. I'm sure many people would have said the same thing about dictatorial Communism, going back as little as 20 years ago (Soviet-style Communism, by the way, is a political ideology that shares many traits with that of organised religion). If people hadn't believed it was possible to find another way then how much of Eastern Europe would still be living in a dictatorship?

The world can change, and can do so in a non-violent way, simply through the dissemination of ideas that have the weight of truth behind them. Communism may have seemed solid and dominant across half the globe, but it was contrary to what many people deep down knew they wanted. Likewise, religion is ingrained but many people are uncertain and have doubts. People like Richard articulate these doubts and, just as importantly, provide a rational alternative that is just as moral (I'd say even more so) and even more wonderful (a spiral galaxy or the workings of DNA are far more awe inspiring than any religious dogma). Raising consciousness is the first step toward change and I applaud the actions of men and women like Richard for helping to do so.

7. Comment #7279 by Noodly on November 18, 2006 at 3:57 am

Richard, if I was you I'd be more worried if you didn't encounter any I'm-an-atheist-buttery. Had they yet read The God Delusion, let alone have time for the ideas to sink in or carry out further research?

I agree with you that there is no room for 'but...' when it comes to religion. The choir may be large, but don't forget that, as well as professionals, it will contain many enthusiastic amateurs who need more practice.

8. Comment #7282 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 4:26 am

Richard Dawkins wrote:

" 1. I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you! You want to get rid of religion? What planet are you living on? Religion is a fixture. Get over it!

I could bear any of these downers, if they were uttered in something approaching a tone of regret or concern. On the contrary. The tone of voice is almost always gleeful, and accompanied by a self-satisfied smirk. "

Well, I certainly think that religion is here to stay. I say this with no gleeful tone or even with a self-satisfied smirk. Nor do I have regret or concern that religion is here to stay. For me, it just is. A fact of life, a fact of the human experience of life. There is not the slightest evidence available upon which one could base the possibility that religion will disappear.

Where there is possibility for change is within theology. Theology does change as time moves on, as history clearly testifies. Religion, as the fundamental desire/need/orientation for man to seek spiritual values is static. Religion is the foundation, theology the superstructure. The change, the mutations, occur in man's theological/intellectual structures. It is within these theological structures that lies the potential for good or evil. The evil potential is realized when theology seeks to operate as something other than theology - when it seeks to operate either as morality or as political ideology.

So yes indeed, I have great concern for any society that allows theological ideas to dangerously infiltrate the fabric of the social/political environment. On the other hand, I do have respect for religion, respect for it's insistence that spiritual value, as opposed to purely material values, are what enable us to reach the heights of our humanity.

Knock theological ideas by all means - in whatever language suits. Theological ideas are fair game, they come and they go, in fashion out of fashion - kick one to the sidelines, another will pop up. That's the nature of theology, never a one size fits all. Religion, from it's history back to whenever, is indeed a one size fits all. All known people having some sort of religious expression/experience. Hence, knocking religion is a waste of time - it's inbuilt immune system is able to ward off any attack.

Attack theology, get specific - specific not about some invisible skygod or another - but about the real reality of theology seeking political expression in the here and now….

9. Comment #7283 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 4:36 am

@ Benjamin Tuite

A phrase you used in your post hints that you've seen Derren Brown's delicious subversion of the faith-heads' credulity in "Messiah".
Reminds me, I must dig that out for a second look.

I'd be fascinated to see Derren and Richard share thoughts on the whole subject of faith and superstition's origins and mechanisms in the mind.

10. Comment #7288 by writerdd on November 18, 2006 at 5:22 am

I'm an atheist. Period.

11. Comment #7290 by Roy on November 18, 2006 at 5:30 am

Dom "With the notable exception of David Attenborough, science documentaries on tv are watched by a niche and increasingly smaller audience"
One of the finest yet most neglected science documentary series on the BBC has recently been released on DVD. "Earth Story" with Aubrey Manning.Welcome thrice welcome! It is easy for a 'Non- scientist' to follow without been condescending, if you know what I mean.If anyone watches that and they still think the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, well,there is no hope for them.

http://www.bbcshop.com/invt/bbcdvd1988&bklist=%3Cvenda_bklist1%3E

12. Comment #7293 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 5:59 am

And then there is this ongoing tragedy that is protected and sanctified by world governments that offering mobsters diplomatic immunity:

"Sex crimes and the Vatican - Vatican City
A secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church is examined by Panorama.

Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm

I'm an Atheist writting letters to the Prime Minister demanding that religion be removed from public life.

13. Comment #7300 by Randy Ping on November 18, 2006 at 6:47 am

I always get the whole "Well, I'm an atheist, but you don't have the right to tell other people that thier imaginary friend is imaginary because they hve a right to believe in...." kind of arguments.
I try to tell them that if it was a holocaust denyer, they would never make that argument.
They say "You can't tell people what top teach their children".
Richard, Do we not have the DUTY to our fellow humans to strip away false beliefs and the fairy tales?

14. Comment #7305 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 6:55 am

MaryHelena wrote,

"Religion, as the fundamental desire/need/orientation for man to seek spiritual values is static."

I agree, and therein is the seed of its demise. The fact that the tales of religion are static (and cannot be updated for obvious reasons) is a fatal weakness, which I think, will result in its natural death sometime in the future. That is why religion needs to indoctrinate children; the godites know that reality will tell a different tale and so they must inoculate kids against reason as soon as possible, the collusion of parents helps them greatly. However, as I've said before on this website, this is a dynamic evolving planet, upon which change is inevitable, that which is static and unable to change eventually dies.

Religion only needs replacing for those afflicted with it, one doesn't miss what one's never had. My father, by accident of birth, was nominally Catholic but atheistic in reality. When he judged my intellectual capacity to have reached the stage where I could understand, he took me aside and explained how he had had religion forced upon him and wanted to make sure that the same did not happen to me. He assured me that whatever religious or non-religious path I chose in life, would be fine with him. So, I've never had a god and never felt the need for one. If this situation was the case for all children, religion – far from being a fixture – would be gone in a few generations.

Mystics and religious fanatics held back human development for almost 1500 years, imagine where we might be now if the ancient tradition and reverence for knowledge had not been destroyed, perhaps many major causes of current human misery would have been eradicated long ago. Unfortunately, last time round the mystics won, they burned the written work and murdered the scientists; we can't let that happen again, and it's entirely possible that it could.

In a recent article AC Grayling remarked that educational standards in the UK have fallen, I agree with him; returning home after ten years in the USA, I noticed that worship of dumb-assed celebrities and various forms of so-called New Age nonsense had reached insane levels, crappy subjects like Media Studies and Theology are favourite educational pursuits of young people. The UK is becoming like the USA but we seem to take only bad Americanisms, not good ones. This pathetic situation must cause religite leaders to wring their hands in glee.

Of all the nutty religious sects around (including the major league), the Amish are the only group I have a teeny measure of respect for. They fail, but at least try to live "the old way" without benefit of modern technology; can you imagine Falwell or Robertson clip-clopping their way to the bank with the proceeds of another successful fleecing of their flock?

We need to do two things: prevent the religious indoctrination of children and raise public consciousness with regard to the virtues of science. Far too many people use the products of science but decry its method, these mega-hypocrites must be made aware that science, not religion, is the reason they're not living in caves and grubbing in the dirt for their next meal.

15. Comment #7311 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 7:31 am

Are you suggesting that old people who have lost the plot or never had it should be respected and or patronized? Surely if you look at them it is evident that they aided and abetted wretched family values such as saying it's ok to hate Italians or Catholics since they are dirty? Should adult children who feel harmed emotionally by the actions of their parents never have a chance to express themselves?

No I do not support respecting old people simply because they have survived.

16. Comment #7312 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 7:37 am

hoju:
"scientific dogma"
A contradiction - if it is science, it is subject to testing and review and can't be dogma. What Dawkins discuss is falsifiable - any observation that supports gods, say Vishnu appearing, is enough. (Discussing the strawman if it is a real Vishnu or a fake Vishnu falls on the improbability.)

To distort his views in this manner is pure projection.

"mindless, non-thinking, non-questioning followers"
Not likely. Dawkins and many with him has put a great deal of effort into judging these matters for themselves. It isn't like you go to a church to listen to a sermon on the dogma you should embrace. Did you know he wrote a book about it? :-)

"There is no "Science" ... antiquated model"

How can you be ignorant of an 400 year old and successful venture that has transformed our world? Science is the venture, the methods, the observed facts and the successful theories that has been amassed. The methods are, as all other things in science, constantly changed and improved. To suggest otherwise is to be ignorant and clinging to an antiquated model of scholastics. Do you realize how much like a anti-scientific creationist you argue? :-)

"Speciation due to mutation indeed. Study some mathematics Mr. Dawkins."

Speciation is due to evolution, and evolution isn't mere mutation - if it was you wouldn't have any species at all, merely an amorphous mess. In a minimal model you must have variation and selection to replicate anything like what we observe. Population dynamics are important but it isn't mere mathematics - it is biology. And Dawkins is a biologist that has done lauded research. You can safely assume he knows science and biology.

17. Comment #7315 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 7:46 am

hoju said:

"Science" is not a religion, but it is being sold as one. There is no "Science". There is only the pursuit of knowledge via methods that have been formulated by thinking men and put into practice by a select few."

You are confused. What your second sentence describes is the thing we call "science", it is NOT practiced by a select few, it is practiced by anyone who applies its method. As Feynman said:

"There are no authorities in science, at best, only experts, it doesn't matter who you are or what your name is, if your theory is not supported by observation, it is wrong"

That means ANYONE can be a scientist, if some mute inglorious Milton solved Fermat's Last Theorem, mathematical scientists would be forced to accept it.


Hoju said:

"Mr. Dawkins clings to a belief system that discards any evidence that does not fit into its limited narrow minded, and largely antiquated model."

What nonsense! I have yet to see any EVIDENCE Richard Dawkins has discarded. Before you make such ridiculous statements, provide some evidence yourself!

hoju said:

"I recall all to well how often in my short lifetime "science the noun" has been proven wrong, over, and over, and over."

Of course it has! That's what it's about! Unlike religion and other foolish doctrine, science constantly corrects its own errors, thereby advancing and adding to the body of knowledge that it is. Clearly, your lifetime has been short; a more mature person would not have made such an erroneous statement.


hoju said:

"But especially no use of Richard Dawkins and his new brand of scientific dogma that so closely resembles the discourse of the religious pontificates that I find it indistinguishable.

And he has the same sort of mindless, non-thinking, non-questioning followers."


Coming here to hurl insults as you do, is just about the most mindless behavior you could adopt. What do you hope to achieve? All you can expect is a sound (luckily only verbal) arse-kicking from your elders here.

I don't think you're an idiot hoju, but you do seem to be either mentally disturbed or a person who's allowed anger for an undisclosed reason, to overrule rationality.

18. Comment #7317 by Walter Yergen on November 18, 2006 at 7:51 am

I am Not an Athiest But!

I believe in "my God".

It seems abundantly obvious to me that Richard Dawkins knows what he is talking about when he talks about science. It seems abundantly obvious to me that Jerry Falwell does not. In my opinion, Jerry Falwell and his disciples are worthy only of ridicule when they talk about science. I suppose they believe that "God's Authority" grants them the right to speak out based on what they know of "Holy Scripture". I could be wrong, but the manifest arrogance of their presumption most deservedly earns my contempt.

Please understand that we are not arguing in a Court of Law. I do not have to answer questions with a "Yes" or "No". Alternative answers to questions of a philosophical nature may be perfectly legitimate. The answer "I don't know" is surely one of them. The answer "I believe so" is another. In any case I, for one, most certainly reserve the right to change my mind if I am wrong, and I expect no less of others.

As one who believes that evolution is unconditionally true, I can declare without reservation that I understand and endorse Dawkin's theories of "Selfish Genes" and "Selfish Memes". See

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/06/science/sciencespecial2/06dawk.html

That doesn't mean that I must agree with Dawkins about the existence or non-existence of "God". I see a hidden assumption in Dawkin's belief that all living things evolve. "God, the Creator" does not have to evolve. "God, the Creator" creates all things. Why cannot "God the Creator" create all things from nothing?

I believe that "God the Creator" is hiding in plain sight. I observe that we come from nothing and that we return to nothing. I suggest that "God the Creator" exists in the nothingness to which we all return.

"My God" is the "Balance of Nature" (or balance of nature if you prefer). Much has been written that describes in scientific terms exactly what I am talking about.


Peace!
- Walt

******
******
******

19. Comment #7319 by Manfred on November 18, 2006 at 8:07 am

Walt
That is exactly why Richard Dawkins first defined the God he is against in the very first pages of The God Delusion.

You can give the name "God" to whatever you want, balance of nature is one of them. Einstein gave this name to the laws of nature.

The God Dawkins is talking about is a personal supernatural God who can hear us and influence our individual lives directly. And that is the God that a majority of people in the world believe in.

And exactly because of this, Richard Dawkins and many atheists find it misleading to label the laws of nature as God. At the very least such labeling can cause confusion and misunderstanding. Exactly the same way that it caused misunderstanding of Einstein.

I also notice that you have gone one step further and believe that "balance of nature" is God "the creator". Well, I don't know what you mean by that. Origins of life and universe are still mysteries to science and there are some theories out there about them. Just because we still don't know the answer, does not mean we can just call the beginning God and forget about it. That is not an explanation and does not really solve anything.

20. Comment #7323 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 8:19 am

Comment #7310 by Jake Danger

Well Jake, are you ging to tell us what evidence you've seen that Dawkins hasn't?

21. Comment #7324 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 8:21 am

I have one more constructive "but" suggestion perhaps.

I'm an atheist, but I prefer to focus on what I do believe in, not what I don't. True I don't believe in some almighty anthropomorphic god and the supernatural and so forth. I tend to replace "god" with "nature". Instead of wondering at the supernatural, wonder at all the marvels of nature and science. We are part of nature, and should do what we can to preserve nature and ourselves.
But that's not to say I am simply replacing religion with science, or simply replacing "god" with "nature" in the bible and still believing that book. There is no institution or dogma involved.

22. Comment #7326 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 8:24 am

Comment #7317 by Walter Yergen

We didn't come from nothing Walter, as Sagan said:

"We are made of starstuff"

So, we came from the stars and to the stars we shall return. Your atoms have at least in some sense, a kind of immortality.

23. Comment #7327 by G Bile on November 18, 2006 at 8:31 am

In a comment to Mr. Robertsons essay (elsewhere on this site) I stated that I am convinced that "Nobody is born as a sinner, and most will not become one in their lifetime". (This effectively discards the Christian faith). In his answer mr Robertson accused me of *living in a fantasy world* ! I suspect that many believers (I think that the from atheism 'converted' Prof. McGrath is one of them) indeed think that religion is necessary 'to tame the masses' (a little bluntly put). This is all insulting to mankind. Atheists know better. So I agree with Dawkins that we should never accept *I believe in people and people believe in God*.

24. Comment #7330 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 8:41 am

Comment #7308 by stefanc

You speak of seeing God and he told you there was no God. Amazingly, you called that a religious experience, it sounds much more like a mental aberration to me.

25. Comment #7332 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 8:50 am

Comment #7329 by Some dude

Use some of the "little biddy itty" atoms you're made of and buy a book on sexual reproduction, (avoid the stork edition), we have very, very good knowledge of how babies are born. While you're at it get a book on cosmology also; it won't answer all your questions but it will help you ask better ones.

26. Comment #7333 by vega on November 18, 2006 at 8:52 am

Thank you for the article Richard. These are good points to ponder.

My take is that people will, in time and of their own accord (with a little help from those such as yourself), be attracted less and less to religious belief and the organised religions as science seeks to answer/answers more and more of the questions that led them to religion in the 1st place: why, what, how, when etc.

As it stands, anyone with a basic understanding of the modern scientific disciplines will have little excuse to turn to religion for answers.

I look forward to the day when children will stroll, hand in hand with their parents, through the Museum of Religious Belief, giggling at the silly things people used to believe...

27. Comment #7336 by Richard Dawkins on November 18, 2006 at 9:00 am

Mr Dawkins,

I have the greatest respect for your work and I agree with you within the realm of your attitude towards religion, but you're really off-base regarding the isue of "discriminatory" pronouns. The feminists' argument is based on unsound linguistic assumptions, that is, that using "he" to refer to an antecedent of indeterminate gender somehow reflects negatively on women. It doesn't; it's just another meaning of the word "he," which can also be used to refer to a masculine antecedent. If people feel repressed or insulted because of this linguistic reality, I'm sorry, but I think that there are many more genuine cases of insensitivity in gender relations that should be addressed, rather than what amounts to an accident arrising in the transmission of thoughts that are most likely in fact entirely non-discriminatory. And the fact that the solutions to the problem so far offered by feminists are stylistically awkward does not much suggest that language, an institution taking thousands of years to build and evolve, literally existing since the rise of humans, can be altered by ill-founded fads. The poorly-analyzed dogma espoused by the feminists (in this case; I'm not anti-feminism, merely anti-language reform) is not the mark of a rational, liberal, scientifically-minded person as you are. Or do you think that butterflies should be renamed to accurately reflect the fact that they are not, in fact, composed of butter?

28. Comment #7337 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 9:07 am

Comment #7309 by Chaley

You seem to think that being old prevents a change of mind, you are mistaken. It may be true of people who have spent a lifetime without thinking, but that's about all. I'm 63 and have changed my mind about several things in the last ten years, I expect to continue in similar vein until the day I die. It comes from spending a lifetime learning, during which I've gained a little knowledge in many subjects but expertise in only two. Unfortunately, for some, it's possible to be old, uneducated and foolish.

29. Comment #7338 by Jack Rawlinson on November 18, 2006 at 9:12 am

Some dude: what? You think it's funny that scientists try to explain as much as they can? Wow. You must think it pretty hilarious that it's thanks to science you can tell so many people about it, eh? And I have no doubt that when one of your loved ones gets cured of a serious illness of injury you'll have a good old laugh at those funny scientists who made that possible, right?

As for "no one can explains how babies are born or what defines their genetics"... well, I'm just speechless in the face of a remark like that. Did you actually go to school?

30. Comment #7340 by Skeptic Jim on November 18, 2006 at 9:19 am

I'm a christian but... I don't believe in the bible, god, jesus and think christianity does more harm than good.

31. Comment #7341 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 9:23 am

Comment #7296 by Jim Dean

I don't understand. Who are you referring to?

32. Comment #7345 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 9:29 am

Comment #7340 by Skeptic Jim

"I'm a christian but... I don't believe in the bible, god, jesus and think christianity does more harm than good."

Sorry Jim, I don't get it. Doesn't CHRISTian come from Jesus CHRIST and isn't belief in him what christianity is about?

33. Comment #7348 by Walter Yergen on November 18, 2006 at 9:37 am

Comment #7326 by Yorker

So Carl Sagan made the same assumption that Richard Dawkins makes. Is that significant? Scientists who "know" that they cannot create or destroy energy understandably believe that nothing in nature can create or destroy energy. I think that they are wrong.

Somewhere there's a beginning and somewhere there's an end. Certainly, it is so for each of "us".

Notice that I identified "God, the Creator" in quotes.

Will "we" reach the stars?

What do you mean by "We"? :-)

- Walt

******
******
******

34. Comment #7350 by island on November 18, 2006 at 9:46 am

I'm an atheist, BUT... like Paul Davies, I recognize purpose in nature and I think that rationale around this, (like, multiverse interpretations), is killing science.

I wanted to ask the following question when the rational responders interviewed Richard, but he changed the program at the last minute and my question was not asked, so here it is now:

I'd like to ask Professor Dawkins what mechanism he thinks controls his "anti-chance process" if the basic premise about purpose in nature of scientists like Paul Davies' are correct?

In this case, isn't natural selection guided by the practicality of environmental enablement and constraint, per the weak anthropic principle, which restricts the physics to require gradual uphill slopes, "sites" where life can arise and evolve"?

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASYMTRANS.html
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASYMILL.html

I didn't ask for reasons not to believe phyisicsts, like Davies, I'd like his opinion on exactly where the link between evolutionary theory and the forces of nature would be, if Davies is right about purpose in nature, but without god?

http://evolutionarydesign.blogspot.com/

35. Comment #7355 by jack on November 18, 2006 at 10:25 am

I recently found a very interesting website:
http://alreadylinked.com/
There you can purchase ad space for your Blog etc.

36. Comment #7356 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 10:26 am

Hi, Yorker

MaryHelena wrote,

"Religion, as the fundamental desire/need/orientation for man to seek spiritual values is static."

"I agree, and therein is the seed of its demise. The fact that the tales of religion are static (and cannot be updated for obvious reasons) is a fatal weakness, which I think, will result in its natural death sometime in the future."

But theology is not static - and therein lies it's potential for change. Or, re-interpretation if you like. One can, as it were, chop down the theological tree but it's religious root is able to sprout afresh. That's been the case throughout history - and I see no evidence that it will ever be any different.

"However, as I've said before on this website, this is a dynamic evolving planet, upon which change is inevitable, that which is static and unable to change eventually dies."

We can change our diet - but food we must eat. However much we change there is always an element of our nature that remains permanent, static. It can't be otherwise. Indeed the only sure thing in life is change - but life itself remains the constant element.

"So, I've never had a god and never felt the need for one. If this situation was the case for all children, religion – far from being a fixture – would be gone in a few generations.".

I don't know so much about that…..I have read about people brought up atheist who do 'turn' to religion. George Ellis, the famous cosmologist, was brought up by two atheist parents - and yet became a christian. I've just read Jane Fonda's biography - and, again, an atheist childhood but she has became a christian. So I suppose the best one can say is that it takes all sorts…..

"We need to do two things: prevent the religious indoctrination of children and raise public consciousness with regard to the virtues of science."

As long as free speech is upheld as a political right - I don't see how the indoctrination of children can be prevented. We surely can't go the route of political legislation? Even if political legislation was passed you can bet your bottom dollar that many a parent would not comply

37. Comment #7357 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 10:33 am

Commenter 53: I think you're meant to identify *yourself* in the "name" field, not the person you're addressing.

Of course we all know, rationally, that "he" in these contexts encompasses "she" as well, but that's hardly the point. Try this thought experiment: every time you use the word "he" in this sense, substitute "she". Not "he or she" or "s/he", but just "she". Do it every time, deliberately, until it becomes automatic. Now imagine that you have done this all your life, as has everyone around you, and that every time someone has had the temerity to say "he", or "he or she", instead, a chorus of indignation has arisen to the effect that "of course everyone *knows* that 'she' encompasses 'he'; so why do you have to sully the language with these awkward circumlocutions to avoid it?"

Do you still maintain that this would have had absolutely no effect on your psychological assumptions, conscious or otherwise, about your abilities and roles in life as a man? I know I couldn't. And yet this is what you are asking every woman to do.

It's not about semantics; it's about the effect of everyday language on the basic assumptions we hold, and the attitudes that flow from those assumptions. Every time an unconsciously held assumption (in this case, that the actor in a sentence is, on balance, likely to be male) is subjected to conscious scrutiny, the attitudes that flow from it (in this case, that this male assumption is unexceptional and inoffensive) can be challenged and revised as necessary. Changing the language becomes a way of changing the social reality that flows from it, by obliging people to become conscious of their unconsciouly held assumptions. That's why it's called consciousness-raising.

38. Comment #7360 by Randy Ping on November 18, 2006 at 11:03 am

SO here's a question for you superstitionists:
Can you name ONE tangible benifit that religion has given to mankind that it could not have on it's own without superstition?
I ask this all the time and NEVER get a real answer.
So, come then, let's hear it.

39. Comment #7361 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 11:03 am

Maryhelena writes: "I have read about people brought up atheist who do 'turn' to religion. George Ellis, the famous cosmologist, was brought up by two atheist parents - and yet became a christian. I've just read Jane Fonda's biography - and, again, an atheist childhood but she has became a christian. So I suppose the best one can say is that it takes all sorts…"

I was such a one myself. Becoming a Christian at the age of 18 (it eventually lasted about 6 years) was my form of teenage rebellion against liberal, atheistic parents. These things happen all the time, in all kinds of directions. But the larger point is that statistically, in societies as a whole, the majority of children *tend* to accept (though with incremental generational shifts and variations) the world-view of their parents (as indeed I did myself when I eventually abandoned supernaturalism in my mid-twenties).

Given that fact, I think it's much too early to say that a stable, generally non-religious society, in which a materialist/naturalistic outlook is transmitted from one generation to the next in the same way, will never be able to emerge. The scientific understandings that underpin an intellectually rigorous atheism simply haven't been around long enough for such a massive intellectual sea-change (much more fundamental than acceptance of anti-racist and anti-sexist norms, for instance) to have filtered through yet. There are several societies (particularly in Europe) where I think it's fairly clear the foundations for such a culture are already there, and given the right encouragement (in the form of emphasis on science education) could flourish and become normalized over the next, say, couple of centuries. I'm certainly hopeful that this is so.

40. Comment #7363 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 11:18 am

I am an atheist- but I don't get why the theists all think their "rationales" for belief lead to the conclusion of one "God, the Creator."

The various arguments that there just HAS TO BE something outside of our world to have created or designed it and the physical laws could just as easily conclude that there are 2 gods-or a committee of 14 or 41,232 gods...or any other number. So why settle on one?

41. Comment #7371 by skeptic on November 18, 2006 at 12:00 pm

maryhelena you write so much rubbish.How do you KNOW all that stuff you write? Were you around 2 million years ago when Homo Erectus was roaming the savannah,for example? As you keep saying that religion has always been around.

42. Comment #7374 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 12:10 pm

Richard Dawkins speaks the unassailable, correct truth about atheism. Comments and criticism are all "attacks".

You're with, or you're against us.

Fine with me.

-an (apparently) insufficiently doctrinaire atheist

43. Comment #7376 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 12:16 pm

Hi, Loren

I didn't find the radio interview at the site. I'll take your word for it that Jane Fonda is now a 'seeker'…..However, I think that her statement in her biography would still stand: "I am only at the start of my soul journey, but with my discovery of the early Christian interpretations and having found a community of feminist Christians, reverence is humming back to me". She does mention that the 'patriarchal, hierarchical structures' of christianity were not to her liking and that she was inspired more by the Gospel of Thomas and the Secret Gospel of Mark. In other words it's the more gnostic side of christianity that is appealing to her - experiencing the 'divine' than mere belief in the 'divine'.

Oh, I think I read, somewhere on this site, that Jane Fonda attended one of Richard Dawkins lectures/book readings? Anyone able to remember if this is so?

44. Comment #7381 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 12:34 pm

Hi, Jonathan

"… I think it's much too early to say that a stable, generally non-religious society, in which a materialist/naturalistic outlook is transmitted from one generation to the next in the same way, will never be able to emerge. The scientific understandings that underpin an intellectually rigorous atheism simply haven't been around long enough for such a massive intellectual sea-change (much more fundamental than acceptance of anti-racist and anti-sexist norms, for instance) to have filtered through yet."

The eternal optimist? Perhaps your right - I've just got no such optimism myself that religion will someday disappear. I do think that theology will, of necessity, undergo some sort of evolutionary/revolutionary change. For christian theology this is already happening. God is now so out of reach that, in actuality, christianity can survive without theism. Getting rid of 'god' though is quite a different matter. Since it can't be proven, scientifically, that he/she/it exists - there is always going to be some sort of theological speculation. That some people find value in such speculation is just, methinks, one of those facts of human nature that we have to face.

45. Comment #7383 by Manfred on November 18, 2006 at 12:36 pm

Think! #88

If your all knowledge comes only from looking at yourself in the mirror, I suggest you
buy a book on evolutionary biology and read it before uttering such nonsense about chance and random selection. You might also reach the conclusion that you are not as "perfect" as you think.

And use your brain while thinking! Not only your eyes.

46. Comment #7392 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 12:57 pm

Hi maryhelena,

You said:

>> But theology is not static - and therein lies it's potential for change. Or, re-interpretation if you like. One can, as it were, chop down the theological tree but it's religious root is able to sprout afresh. That's been the case throughout history - and I see no evidence that it will ever be any different.<<

The tale told by every religion is static and must remain so to avoid looking even sillier than it is by changing its story in an attempt to match the needs of a changing world. The veracity of something that needs continual "re-interpreting" is suspect in the first place, you can't "interpret" nothing into something, the simple lack of evidence is, and always will be, the nemesis of religion. In your agricultural phraseology, if I buy a tulip bulb, plant it and a hyacinth grows, should I "re-interpret" it as a tulip or complain to the original vendor? I think your statement is – appropriately enough – poppycock; you see no evidence of change because you don't want to, everyone who looks with open eyes can see that the stranglehold religion once had on people, has been reduced to the feeble grasp of a drowning dogma. Soon, the now-useless corpse of religion will sink.

>> We can change our diet - but food we must eat. However much we change there is always an element of our nature that remains permanent, static. It can't be otherwise. Indeed the only sure thing in life is change - but life itself remains the constant element.<<

This is just wrong. I can easily foresee a future time where food as we know it won't exist; even now we can be fed intravenously if needed, if we continue breeding like religites and not husbanding our planet, the time when the wars over food may come much quicker than you think. Even with wise husbandry, genetic modification – perhaps even generation - of foodstuffs will certainly be required. Life itself is not constant, it evolves; just as there are people today who deny chimpanzees as our relatives, it's very possible that thousands of years from now some of our descendants may discover your fossilized remains and deny their lineage with you.

The fact as you say, that people who were once atheistic and now embrace religion, doesn't mean anything, they are far outnumbered by people to whom the reverse situation applies, the old saying that "it takes all sorts" is vastly overrated and probably wrong. The fact we have all sorts doesn't mean we need them, indeed, I'm certain we could do very nicely without the religious sorts at all, keep in mind that atheism is the default condition of humanity, god-ism invades the brain after birth, not before.

I didn't say that prevention of child indoctrination would be easy; there will always be some religiously perverted parent who will attempt this form of mental child abuse. As time marches on and atheism becomes dominant, such parents will die out because the worldly disadvantage they force upon their kids will be all too apparent. Again, you don't see how this child abuse can be prevented because you don't want prevention, you clearly want perpetuation of the god myth. No, it won't be easy, but we atheists will keep trying and we shall succeed.

47. Comment #7393 by Louis Perry on November 18, 2006 at 12:58 pm

Every day now, I wake up and say, "Thank Richard for Richard Dawkins!

That's as close to religion as I'll ever get.

48. Comment #7399 by Randy Ping on November 18, 2006 at 1:18 pm

"Think!",
Evolution is not an idea, it is not a "theory", it is not a fairy tale or a religion.
It is a fact. There are many Theories on the specifics. And thats' Theory with a capitol -T-.
Why don't you go read some basic elementary school level scientific text books if you can't figure that out.
And as far as the fossil EVIDENCE goes,
There is a concensus in the legitimate scientific community.
You are a liar.

49. Comment #7400 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 1:23 pm

Comment #7348 by Walter Yergen

>>So Carl Sagan made the same assumption that Richard Dawkins makes. Is that significant? Scientists who "know" that they cannot create or destroy energy understandably believe that nothing in nature can create or destroy energy. I think that they are wrong.<<

>>What do you mean by "We"?<<

"We" means you and me and everyone else on this planet, our atoms were forged in stars and after the Earth is destroyed our atoms will be recycled.

Everything that exists on the Earth is made of atoms, you say that's wrong. If you deny this atomic "fact" as Feynman called it, then get ready to pick up the Nobel prize for physics, you are about to change the world. All you have to do is present your evidence to science and get it accepted. Keep in mind that some "dopey philosophical idea" (another Feynman expression) isn't going to cut it.

If it's OK with you, I'll take the word of Feynman, Sagan and Dawkins in preference to yours.

50. Comment #7401 by Aussie on November 18, 2006 at 1:23 pm

I think our chances of eliminating religion are about the same as those of eliminating war.

I wonder why.
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