Booman Tribune

Georgia: A Reality Check for the Left

by BooMan
Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:19:43 PM EST

Everyone should read this opinion piece in today's Washington Post. It's written by Ronald D. Asmus, a deputy assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration and Richard Holbrooke, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations in the Clinton administration. If you want to have some sense about the bi-partisan commitment to U.S. policy in the Caucuses, you need to read this opinion piece very carefully. If you fail to come to terms with both the meaning and the implications of this piece, then you simply will not be able to understand or anticipate the U.S. reaction to Russia's invasion of Georgia.

While the Left seems paralyzed with debate over who started this fight or how worthy Georgia is as a democracy and an ally, the rest of the foreign policy Establishment could not be less interested. For example, here is Asmus and Holbrooke's treatment of the culpability issue:

Exactly what happened in South Ossetia last week is unclear. Each side will argue its own version. But we know, without doubt, that Georgia was responding to repeated provocative attacks by South Ossetian separatists controlled and funded by Moscow. This is a not a war Georgia wanted; it believed that it was slowly gaining ground in South Ossetia through a strategy of soft power.

Whatever mistakes Tbilisi has made, they cannot justify Russia's actions. Moscow has invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the U.N. Charter and fundamental principles of cooperation and security in Europe. Beginning a well-planned war (including cyber-warfare) as the Olympics were opening violates the ancient tradition of a truce to conflict during the Games. And Russia's willingness to create a war zone 25 miles from the Black Sea city of Sochi, where it is to host the Winter Games in 2014, hardly demonstrates its commitment to Olympic ideals. In contrast, Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note.

Russia's goal is not simply, as it claims, restoring the status quo in South Ossetia. It wants regime change in Georgia.

The West sees this move as a sign of a newly aggressive Russia, and a precursor to larger ambitions.

As Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt pointed out Saturday, Moscow's rationale for invading has parallels to the darkest chapters of Europe's history. Having issued passports to tens of thousands of Abkhazians and South Ossetians, Moscow now claims it must intervene to protect them -- a tactic reminiscent of one used by Nazi Germany at the start of World War II.

Moscow seeks to roll back democratic breakthroughs on its borders, to destroy any chance of further NATO or E.U. enlargement and to reestablish a sphere of hegemony over its neighbors. By trying to destroy a democratic, pro-Western Georgia, Moscow is sending a message that, in its part of the world, being close to Washington and the West does not pay.

I hope you know your history because the United States will go to war to maintain its prestige and its credibility as an ally. Even more so, the West will go to war to protect our investments in the Caspian Basin, including the hard fought Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which was a decade in the making and was organized through groups like the United States-Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce, headed by James Baker, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Brent Scowcroft, Henry Kissinger, and John Sununu. None of these people are remotely interested in whether Russian-backed Ossetians provoked the Georgians or the Georgians provoked the Russians. All that matters is what the Russians do now. And there is an information war going on right now between Russia and Georgia. In a scenario such as this, there are not many reliable sources. Any Russian annexation of Georgia would threaten British Petroleum's assets to such a degree that British sources are not reliable. American sources are suspect for the same reason. I would not trust Russian sources, either. Perhaps the East Asian press can be seen as an honest broker. In any case, the Associated Press is reporting that Russia has advanced south from the "province of Abkhazia while most Georgian forces are locked up in fighting around another breakaway region of South Ossetia" and seized a Georgian military base and police stations a full thirty miles inside Georgia proper. This is their weak confirmation:

In Moscow, a government official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to give his name, confirmed the move into Senaki and said it was intended to prevent Georgian troops from concentrating.

While many on the Left are twiddling their thumbs wondering why the United States decided to involve themselves in the Caucuses in the first place (a decision initiated by Bush and Baker in the early 1990's and enthusiastically endorsed by Clinton's powerful Commerce Department), the National Security Council (including Democratic members) and the NSC-in-exile (people like ZBig and Holbrooke) are having none of it.

This moment could well mark the end of an era in Europe during which realpolitik and spheres of influence were supposed to be replaced by new cooperative norms and a country's right to choose its own path. Hopes for a more liberal Russia under President Dmitry Medvedev will need to be reexamined. His justification for this invasion reads more like Brezhnev than Gorbachev. While no one wants a return to Cold War-style confrontation, Moscow's behavior poses a direct challenge to European and international order.

When Big Boys like this get their knickers in a twist, things can come to a head very quickly. Remember Cuba, the Bay of Pigs, and the Missile Crisis? Remember the Domino Theory and the Korean and Vietnam Wars? Only this time we're talking about former Soviet territory and major oil and gas revenues. This is not some faux-conflict that was ginned up by John McCain and the neoconservatives as some kind of electoral season strategy. And, even if it was (and it's not) it's gone far beyond that now.

What does the Democratic Foreign Policy Establishment recommend that we do? In addition to threatening to take the 2014 Winter Olympics away from Russia, they give the following three-point strategy:

What can we do? First, Georgia deserves our solidarity and support. (Georgia has supported us; its more than 2,000 troops are the third-largest contingent in Iraq -- understandably those troops are being recalled.) We must get the fighting stopped and preserve Georgia's territorial integrity within its current international border. As soon as hostilities cease, there should be a major, coordinated transatlantic effort to help Tbilisi rebuild and recover.

Second, we should not pretend that Russia is a neutral peacekeeper in conflicts on its borders. Russia is part of the problem, not the solution. For too long, Moscow has used existing international mandates to pursue neo-imperial policies. We must disavow these mandates and insist on truly neutral international forces, under the United Nations, to monitor a future cease-fire and to mediate.

Third, we need to counter Russian pressure on its neighbors, especially Ukraine -- most likely the next target in Moscow's efforts to create a new sphere of hegemony. The United States and the European Union must be clear that Ukraine and Georgia will not be condemned to some kind of gray zone.

I can hear the Left now laughing at Asmus and Holbrooke's audacity in accusing Russia of neo-imperial policies. Isn't this conflict taking place in Russia's sphere of influence? Hasn't the West been relentlessly provocative? Didn't Russia warn us about the eastward expansion of NATO, anti-missile defenses in the Czech Republic, and the independence of Kosovo?

Yes, yes they did. And it doesn't matter an iota to our bi-partisan foreign policy Establishment. This is power geopolitics at its rawest and it has major consequences for our strategic position in Central Asia and the Middle East. Did Dick Cheney say something alarmingly bellicose? Sure. But Cheney differs from Holbrooke only in tone. Russia is threatening more than the Bush/Cheney policy vis-a-vis Georgia. They are threatening eight years of Clinton foreign policy.

In the many years I have been writing this blog I have been a consistent critic of Clinton's foreign policy, especially in the Caucuses and as relates to NATO expansion. I made these points many times during the primaries. But there are two things you need to keep in mind. Just because there are legitimate criticisms of U.S. foreign policy does not mean that Russia is on the right side of history. But, more importantly, the foreign policy Establishment is united behind these policies and has invested in them over the course now of almost 20 years. There isn't a whole lot of room for debate over what should have been. We're here now. Like an aircraft carrier, you cannot turn around bipartisan U.S. foreign policy on a dime. This is not some uniquely neoconservative policy. This is U.S. policy.

Working to change that policy demands that we understand the policy as it is and as it has been. We need to understand the military justification of that policy (access to energy supplies to fuel our Naval Fleets and Air Force) as well as the economic justifications. And we should not kid ourselves that we will find Democratic allies in Congress or the Obama campaign that are going to argue that our policy has been all wrong all along. That will never happen. If this conflict becomes a matter of debate in the presidential campaign, it will not be over the wisdom of the overall policy. Obama would be abandoned by the foreign policy Establishment in a New York Minute.

That's the sad fact. So, the U.S. is not going to back down willingly. If it backs down it will be for the same reason that the USSR ultimately backed down during the Cuban Missile Crisis. If we back down it will be because this is ultimately in the Russian sphere of influence and we have no better options given the risk of nuclear conflict.



Display:
We better sit on our hands or have them cut off.

Oh, yeah. I'll listen to Holbrook. Pffft.

Vesna Peric Zimonjic - The Independent August 4, 2008

The former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic lived under US protection after the Dayton peace accords until the CIA intercepted a phone call in which he broke the terms of a "secret deal" to stay out of politics, a Serbian newspaper claims.

"Karadzic, indicted for genocide and war crimes, was under US protection until 2000, when the CIA intercepted his telephone conversation that clearly proved he personally chaired a meeting of his old political party," the Belgrade daily Blic quoted a "well-informed US intelligence source" as saying.

"They went crazy realising Karadzic was making a fool of them," it said yesterday. "The US and CIA withdrew [his] informal protection."

Mr Karadzic has revived the allegations of a deal between himself and the chief US peace negotiator in Bosnia, Richard Holbrooke, since appearing before the UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague last Thursday.

Mr Holbrooke has denied any deals with Mr Karadzic, telling CNN last Thursday that this was a "flat-out lie".

by Cee on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:20:58 PM EST
If you don't listen to Holbrooke then you won't have a clue why the Dems are behaving the way they're behaving.  Steve Clemons had a recent piece on Holbrooke's current position in the foreign policy establishment.  It will explain a lot.  Clemons is tapped in.  
by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah! well read Clemons' critique of the Asmus-Holbrooke piece linked to in my comment downthread.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"
by idredit on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:56:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree with Clemons, but one of my main points here is that the foreign policy Establishment is not interested in doling out gold stars for culpability here.  If Bush/Cheney created a mess, it's still a mess that the Establishment wants cleaned up.  

The fact that Holbrooke/Hiatt and other outlets are refusing to entertain any American culpability just shows that they are goal oriented.  Right now they are not interested in anything but rallying American elite opinion for tough actions to hold-off the Russians and prevent them from fully capitalizing on their advantage.  If Obama falls for the game of assigning blame he'll be left behind in this debate.  We're in managing crisis mode.  I hope you (and he) understand that, because otherwise we will be saluting President McCain.

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Richard Holbrooke. East Timor? I have this vague recollection.

Yeah, so Dems and Republicans inside the Beltway will join hands and start WWIII because some joker in Georgia screwed up and started a war with Russia.

Whatever. If the world ends by fire or ice or stupidity, whatever. That doesn't mean I have to listen to Richard Holbrooke.

The Russians dropped a few bombs NEXT to the oil pipeline. That was a message to the West. They didn't drop them on the pipeline.

This was American adventurism in Russia's backyard. Bush screwed the pooch again. Hopefully for the Georgians their next President will use the income from the pipeline to rebuild the bridges and roads that are being destroyed right now.

by Bob In Pacifica on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 05:54:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So reading between your lines, I get that as an Obama centrist you are worried about this thing blowing up in Obama's face and too much of the blogosphere getting tagged as pinko, commie leftists. Not Obama directly, of course, but indirectly perhaps.

The rest is you trying to stay real in your criticisms of Clinton (B) and the Kosovo then the Caucasus briar patches. And you mostly succeed as  I kept getting whipsawed by your analytic descriptions.

BP's property? Protecting the west's oil addiction? That's kinda what you are left defending.

No matter what we think of Chavez, he manages his relationship with the U.S. very carefully. That's what Georgia needed and will need to do with Russia if they survive as a country.

Jeff Wegerson

by wegerje on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:21:59 PM EST
Georgia fucked up when they started letting US and Israli soldiers squat on their land since 2002.

They also allowed the Chechens to squat as they passed through to attack Russia. Remember the theater seige?

by Cee on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One response to this is that America is:

  1. getting its just desserts for its Hubris and neo-imperialistic policies.
  2. has no leg to stand on because of decisions made (especially) during the Bush administration that have blown up any consensus for the 'international order'.

My reaction to this is that while those criticisms have merit they are not politically viable.  And they aren't unviable because McCain and the neo-cons will scream 'Kremlin-appeasers' at us, they're not viable because the Democratic Establishment will scream 'Kremlin-appeasers' at us.

You can work to change our policy, as I have advocated consistently (precisely because I feared it would come to this).  But you have to at least understand the situation.  And it helps to understand that this isn't all a one-sided argument where American and the West are the bad guys.  Russia's Renaissance is a legitimate concern.  Commitment to autonomy for the former SSR's is a legitimate concern.  Western investment is not something that should be viewed as bad, even for the people of the region.  Russian state-owned monopolies are not better stewards of Caspian resources than BP and Exxon/Mobil.  

All I ask is for a little realism and some nuanced analysis.  Knee-jerk reactions aren't going to make things better, no matter who is making them.  And unrealistic expectations are also damaging.  We've been working to change our system and our foreign policy in incremental stages and we've been making progress.  But as should be obvious by now, even though there are good and thoughtful people in the Democratic Party (the only power we have), the Establishment of both parties is bent on maintaining a heavy presence militarily and economically in Central Asia and the Middle East.  And part of the reason for that is fear of a resurgent and undemocratic Russia.  Greed is a big factor, but not the only factor.  

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:39:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you know your history because the United States will go to war to maintain its prestige and its credibility as an ally.

And our money...er, ahem--interests. All true. I don't dispute that at all.

But I ask you, in all sincerity: With what army?

You mean the one that's presently overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Presumptuous is the new uppity.

by AP on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Russia is asking themselves the same question.  
by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:52:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point AP, and

with what money?

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't mean to be flippant, because I know these idiots are itching for another war. You merely need glance at boy Kristol's NYT column to see where this is going.

(Pull quote on NYT Opinion home page near the link to his daily drivel: "We owe Georgia, which has stood with U.S. soldiers in Iraq, a serious effort to defend its sovereignty." And he helpfully states that "The United States, of course, is not without resources and allies to deal with these problems and threats.")

That said, these types have a hard time thinking 5 minutes beyond their noses. Starting a war is the easy part. That doesn't take much. But from where do we get the money and the troops? The troops in Iraq are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th tours, our economy is tanking, our infrastructure a joke, our energy prices are about to soar after our pre-election discount, China owns our debt and they are tripping over themselves to make more? This is insane.

At some point, regardless of the fear and loathing of a resurgent Russia, the "realists" must take stock. Beyond the propaganda--and certainly beyond the morality--lay the brass tacks.

Presumptuous is the new uppity.

by AP on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not just money and troops. They need oil, the US military  needs tons and tons of fuel to do anything. Especially when they don't have infantry and have to rely on air power, which just eats it up. The Russians, on the other hand, have tons of oil, giving them a major upper hand in any significantly protracted conflict. And any protracted struggle is going to drive the price of oil up and, I imagine, the dollar down, making it harder for the US the longer it goes on.
by mikep on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 06:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nonsense.  The United States military have plenty of fuel, and can get more where it comes from by the simple expedient of imposing gasoline rationing on American citizens, as was done in World War II.  The fact that most people will not accept rationing as the price of coming to Georgia's aid -- most people don't even know where Georgia is, both the state ande the country -- tells you all you need to know about America's likely response.

Knut
by Knut Wicksell (b_didnn@hotmail.ca) on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 07:27:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the bright side if they do it might fast-track a green revolution.

That said I have been really disappointed in the blogosphere, there has been very little discussion at Open Left, at DKos, of what we should do now which I suppose is implicitly sit on our hands. Maybe we can get away with that, but unless the French broker a cease-fire and bail our ass out I don't see any way out of further conflicts.

by MNPundit on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 07:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, indeed: with what Army?  
although I suppose we could always nuke 'em. Sure we'd get a nuclear response back, but since when has the Bush Adminsitration (either of  'em) cared a whit about the effetcs of their policies on ordinary Americans?

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??
by brendan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for your splendid essay... but, regarding the Asmus/Holbrooke piece; Holbrooke is presenting out of self-interest due his contribution to Serbia/Kosovo set up.

I tend to agree with Steve Clemons:

Third, Ronald Asmus and Richard Holbrooke call for a new transatlantic strategic plan to deal with Russia's heightened aggressiveness. Asmus and Holbrooke at first say that it's hard to see exactly who or what started the conflict in South Ossetia but nonetheless suggest that we must stand by Georgia and hold against Russia. Regrettably, there is little analysis in their piece of what actually created the ecosystem of fragility and imbalance between Georgia, two autonomous provices, and Russia. I regret to say that Holbrooke and Asmus don't look back to Kosovo independence and other measures America took to gut and neutralize Russia's interests. If they had included a bit of American self-reflection, I'd agree with them that a new strategic course is needed -- but not one that focuses almost exclusively on punishing Russia.

BooMan, (with all due respect I hold you in high esteem),  you need to get a grip on when the shoe is on the other foot...that "our policy has been wrong all along" ... and, I may add, needs to be changed.

Looks to me you're offering up the Kristol-Kagan-Norquist kool-aid..positing to maintain the status quo.  No disrespect intended..I still love your work BUT let's in love disagree. We won't succeed in punishing Russia, nor should we attempt to do so.

Working to change that policy demands that we understand the policy as it is and as it has been. We need to understand the military justification of that policy (access to energy supplies to fuel our Naval Fleets and Air Force) as well as the economic justifications. And we should not kid ourselves that we will find Democratic allies in Congress or the Obama campaign that are going to argue that our policy has been all wrong all along. That will never happen. If this conflict becomes a matter of debate in the presidential campaign, it will not be over the wisdom of the overall policy. Obama would be abandoned by the foreign policy Establishment in a New York Minute.

Well, Hoolbrooke/Albright/Zbig of the foreign polcy Establishment are all advising Obama and Kagan is advising McCain. There's little difference between heads and tails. It's the same wooden nickel. Kristol/Kagan and Holbrooke et al..all want to stand with Goergia. Bombs away.

That's the mindset that contributes to foreign policy blunders.  I've been reading a fair bit of opinions on this conflict. Not all in the foreign policy Establishment are on board with where this mindset has lead us.

The American eagle is wounded and I think we need to recognize we are no longer the sole super-power. We're  bankrupt, both in the morale and financial sense. Thanks to boy George, the RoW resent our pre-emptive adventures and stealing of wealth. Lots of resentment of our foreign policy double standards out there  - one rule for us, do as we say. It's over. Good bye to all that.

These are different times. The Bear is out of hibernation with deep, deep pockets and free of debt. It's the end of U.S. bullying and bribing. It's worth repeating because we still see ourselves as powerful and rich.

We're wounded and bankrupt to the tune of $750 trillion  coupled to the resentment over all the toxic OTC derivatives that we exported...stealing the savings of the RoW. (BTW that's not a figure taken out of the hat - BIS sourced)

The RoW (rest of the world's resources) - savings and fuel - are not our exclusive entitlement.  The Caspian basin oil resources will be dominated by Russia, Iran and China and we need to accept that. It. won't. be. ours.

Respect to you and

Peace.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:51:27 PM EST
You say 'we need to accept that."

What a loaded sentence!!

What a long, long way we are from accepting that!!  

Show me the successful politician that runs on accepting that!!  

I don't even disagree with you.  I don't.  I've been saying the same thing for ages.  But I have two points.

  1. advocates of this point of view are not in power anywhere in government or even in the government-in-waiting.
  2. there are real reasons why it is dangerous for the U.S. to cede the field to the Russians and the Chinese.

Maybe we can discuss 2) in more depth as this crisis unfolds.  
by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BooMan, I do not write as well as you do.,but thanks. I'm honored that there are points on which to agree.

We need to accept that Russia and Iran's littorial (a lesson in geography) is on the Caspian Sea/basin...their sphere of influence ain't going nowhere. [See why the conflict with Iran has nothing to do with their nuclear ambitions! - it's the Caspian Basin reserves] China also has invested heavily in the Caspian basin to secure future gas supplies.  

On the sheer might of population, the 21st century belongs to the east that, btw, includes Russia. Our Time Chart and influence has been diminished to expiring. Painful as it is, "" We need to accept that.""

"What a long, long way we are from accepting that!!  

Show me the successful politician that runs on accepting that!! I don't even disagree with you.  I don't.  I've been saying the same thing for ages.  But I have two points.

   1. advocates of this point of view are not in power anywhere in government or even in the government-in-waiting.
   2. there are real reasons why it is dangerous for the U.S. to cede the field to the Russians and the Chinese"

This premise posits we're locked into the status quo of our previous and present foreign policies.

Either we change/adapt or painful change will be imposed by the rest of the world.

On Point No:2, in particular, that's no longer an option; the cows, goats, pigs, horses and donkeys, have left the barn - gone and can't be rounded up.

We already ceded. While we were off on the Afghanistan/Iraq adventures, the Chinese were "taking advantage of ALL the opportunities" we gave them - securing resources for the foreseeable future in Canada, South America and Africa: (oil, iron ore, copper and other minerals). Case in point: China bought the rest of all the copper in Chile and Peru - a whole mountain range of copper - 50 years reserves. In Brazil, it's iron ore. Want to buy some iron ore from Brazil? ---  send your purchase order to China. In Africa, it's oil and minerals.

Yep, resource wars ahead. Sadly we're on our knees without a cane, bobbing and weaving on how we handle $750 trillion of OTC debt. This is the tip of it

- How do you require the bankrupt banks to buy back the trillions of these toxic OTCs that they sold?- at face value! Ultimate payor will be the Feds. The dam broke on this one, the cracks we ignored.

It's called the credit crisis. The Chinese may oblige to lend us more, the Russians too, if we play nice.

We are in no position to dictate or to stridently hold that we won't cede to their (Chinese and Russian) sphere of influence. And if one believes in peak oil, the option of colluding with the Saudis to price oil at $50/bbl thereby enabling a bankrupt Russia is not an option. Even if we did, Oh my, the USGS just announced in July, some 412 billion barrels of oil reserves in the Artic sea bed - most of this under the Russian flag! Oil at $50 won't hurt with these huge reserves.

During the last 16 years, Greed destroyed American capitalism. Now, China and Russia will read us the 11th commandment:

"The greedy shall not be fed"

Respect,

Peace.

Well, "You can't vote for war and disown the results"

by idredit on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 03:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kunstler has an interesting take:

 The US might talk tough about this threat to the status quo, but what is it going to do? Pull troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan to mount a land war against Russia in a landlocked region of its own neighborhood? Fuggeddabowdit. Notice, the Europeans are not making so much as a peep -- because when the time comes that Russia does control that pipeline, the Europeans will do anything to keep the contents flowing toward them. Europe may be organized as a trade-and-currency confederation, but not as a military power. NATO is strictly a US auxiliary, not a power unto itself. The result of all this will be that Russia, already the world's leading oil producer, even as it has entered depletion, will now possess a potent geopolitical-and-financial weapon with control of that pipeline. A collateral effect will be Europe's inclination to bid more desperately for Middle East oil -- the oil that comes via the Suez Canal -- which can't help but boost the price-per-barrel that the US is forced to pay.

http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/

by Tehanu on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:07:55 PM EST
Sounds like a recipe for begging for an alliance with Iran.
by MNPundit on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 07:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Saaskashvili runs for cover - video

Fair assessment of the importance of the west to resources, except the US cannot demand ownership of Caucasian or Caspian territory. Due to the failure of the Afghan campaign and empty promises, the US has already been kicked out of the majority of former Soviet Union satellite states. Hell, Bush & Co has confronted America with an historic defeat at the expense and waste of trillions of dollars.

The UNOMIG mandate for Abkhazia with interactive map of the region. The Russian troops have occupied the area that belonged to the UN mission and Russian peacekeepers. I guess that's why Moscow calls the military campaign: "Enforce Peace". They learn quick from the US war propaganda machine at the Pentagon. Senaki and the port of Poti lie direct at the outskirts of the demilitarized zone.

What is the US complaining about, they are moving Georgian troops and transporting immense supplies of new arms and munition from Iraq to the 3rd front in the WOT : Georgia.

Btw, thanks to Bush Medvedev Putin  Gazprom has been nationalizing assets of BP and Shell in Russia. America is feeding the hand of Russia due to a wrecked foreign policy.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:08:32 PM EST
.
Russia Says Its Forces Leave Georgia's Senaki

MOSCOW (AFP)--Russian forces withdrew Monday from the west Georgian city of Senaki, Russian news agencies reported, citing the Russian defense ministry.

The forces left after forcing a Georgian unit out of the city, destroying the Georgian troops' ability to fire at South Ossetia, RIA Novosti news agency reported, citing a defense ministry official.

Earlier Monday the ministry said Russian forces had carried out military operations around Senaki to prevent Georgian troops from regrouping there.

The UNOMIG mandate for Abkhazia with interactive map of the region.  

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 05:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we back down it will be because this is ultimately in the Russian sphere of influence and we have no better options given the risk of nuclear conflict.

That's exactly what's going to happen. Neither your post nor the Washington Post op-ed are serious analysis. Both are nothing more than expressions of cognitive dissonance, dissonance between the conceit of the foreign policy elite, which you share, that America is the ruler of the world, and the reality that no single country can rule the world.

The four "actions" that the op-ed proposes at the end amount to nothing more than pathetic posturing. The US can do nothing because (1) it is part of the genetic code of the modern world that one nuclear superpower does not get involved in a war with another; (2) Europe needs Russia's oil and gas; (3) Russia is a permanent member of the Security Council.

This should be a learning experience for the West. What we are now seeing is the initial response when one is presented with a fact that contradicts one's preconceived notions: denial.

As for domestic politics, which seems to be your practical concern, I don't see this affecting the election much. The American public has been mainlined on the war on terror to such an extent that I don't think there's enough time to get the public (as opposed to you and the foreign policy elite who are into cogitating about the "grand game") hysterical about Russia.

"Israel is a good friend of Israel." -- Barack Obama. Is that a Freudian slip indicating that Obama suspects that Israel is not a good friend of the US?

by Alexander on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:23:42 PM EST
A couple of sources are now reporting that the Russian took and occupied Gori.  Fog of war?  I don't know.
by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see. I was worried that there might be something to those rumors about Gori when I read last night that an Independent reporter was wondering where the Russian troops had gone that he was expecting to see in Tskhinvali.

I of course agree with you that a Russian occupation of Georgia would be a major problem. But I still think the Russians are too wily for that. The only reasons for why the Russians would take territory in Georgia proper that I can think of is that they want to (1) instil a deep feeling of defeat in the Georgian people; (2) get into a position from which they can make "concessions", while still keeping the two breakaway regions; (3) destroy military equipment more carefully than by simply bombing from the air.

If the Russians depose Saakashvili by means of an invasion and occupation, that would of course be a huge blunder and overreach. I think that Putin is clever enough to know that what has happened so far has done enough damage to Saakashvili. But then, maybe he's thinking of the first Gulf war, and Bush the Elder keeping Hussein in power?

I really can't imagine that the Russians would engage in a sustained occupation of Georgia, given their experience in Afghanistan. I hope that what they're doing is playing mind games with the rest of the world.

"Israel is a good friend of Israel." -- Barack Obama. Is that a Freudian slip indicating that Obama suspects that Israel is not a good friend of the US?

by Alexander on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Russia Denies Occupying Georgian City of Gori -Interfax

MOSCOW (AFP)--Russia's defense ministry denied a Georgian claim that Russian forces had occupied the Georgian city of Gori, the Interfax news agency reported.

"Troops have not occupied the city of Gori. This information does not correspond to reality," an unnamed Russian defense military spokesman told the agency.

Rumors have been flying in Tiblisi as refugees fled the city of Gori due to ... Georgian rumors. Local media are reporting false news in an attempt to get intervention from NATO/EU countries and the unfounded comparison with Hungary 1956.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the BBC website:

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.

Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.

He said the Russian Army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted the Georgian army had fled the area without putting up a fight.

+++

As Grandpappy Amos said, "Showin' is better than tellin'."

by Bob In Pacifica on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 06:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused.  The Russians occupied Georgia from 1921 to 1992.  Stalin came from Gori.  I don't think there is any parallel to Afghanistan.  Chechnya might be a better comparison.  I'd expect some resistance from the Georgian people to a resumption of outright Russian vassalage.  But I would not expect anything on the order of Chechnya or Afghanistan.  In any case, Russia would be satisfied with a pro-Russian government.  They'd probably 'pull-out' in the same way that we pulled-out of Panama.  
by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Afghanistan is one of the worst countries to occupy. I just meant that I think that the Russians have had their fill of occupying countries. Also, needless to say, occupying Georgia would justify the unfriendly policy of the US to Russia since the collapse of the USSR.

I think saying "The Russians occupied Georgia from 1921 to 1992" isn't quite correct. The Russians annexed Georgia. What they occupied was the countries of central Europe. Saying the Russians occupied Georgia is like saying that we occupy Hawaii today: as I recall, the Hawaiins did not give up their sovereignty voluntarily.

"Israel is a good friend of Israel." -- Barack Obama. Is that a Freudian slip indicating that Obama suspects that Israel is not a good friend of the US?

by Alexander on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I think that's a bit hard on Booman, but as he's a big boy, I'll leave that there. :) I happen to agree with his analysis.

But I don't believe there's one damned thing the foreign policy elite can do about it.

You are absolutely right: this is an expression of cognitive dissonance. At some point, reality intrudes bluster and denial, and they're gonna have to deal with what's real, instead of what they wish to be.

It doesn't matter what's right. It doesn't matter what "we" want. This is a completely amoral. They have a specific goal in mind--and no way to achieve it. Reality is funny that way.

And winter's coming. Just saying.


Presumptuous is the new uppity.

by AP on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think Alexander actually understands my analysis.

He appears to think I am an advocate for U.S. foreign policy...the forward-leaning basing strategy (the lilypad strategy) and effort to unilaterally control energy resources no matter the cost in blowback and lost legitimacy.  

This analysis is based on the reality about the contours of this debate in an election year and the likely actions of our foreign policy elite.  It is not an endorsement of those actions and that reality.

However, I have no interest in losing this election to John McCain because we're so stupid as to fall into his trap.  I'm just saying...be prepared to be ashamed of your country...again.  

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:00:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I'm there with you. The sad reality is that "we" cannot countenance a newly resurgent Russia, which is how this is being interpreted by members of the foreign policy establishment.

What is not being said, but what MUST be considered, is what they will do to "stop" Russia, and they are about out of moves. Seven years of engaging our collective mouths before thought has a price.

And to both clarify and emphasize a point: This is a completely amoral point. There are a variety of ways in which we could act, but I don't think these types have gamed it out.

As far as I'm concerned, the question is this: Do we pull back from the brink and find a way to save face, or do we, like a bankrupt prince, keep putting up money and appearances that aren't there?

Everything has a cost. I hope "we" consider carefully.

Presumptuous is the new uppity.

by AP on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry that I didn't read your analysis as carefully as I should have: I have to pack for a trip. I just resented your remarks about the "Left" being "paralyzed with debate over who started this fight", when the "Left", being reality based, is united as far as I can tell in believing that Georgia started it (which is not to say that Russia, being an experienced world power, is not good at provoking other countries when it wants to).

Also, I think you're overreacting. All this complaining that the Americans are doing is just noise. As I said before, American foreign policy tends to be rational, except where Israel is concerned. The US really doesn't have much at stake in Georgia. Russia is not going to touch the oil pipe line there.

"Israel is a good friend of Israel." -- Barack Obama. Is that a Freudian slip indicating that Obama suspects that Israel is not a good friend of the US?

by Alexander on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Asmus's and Holbrooke's call for all parties to forget past policies and actions gives away the bankruptcy in the US position.  That's what a bully always does when the suddenly find themselves getting an ass-woopin'.  

People don't forget.  The people in that part of the world don't forget for a very long time.  The Russians were treated like garbage by the American elite after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, with much pain for the average Russian citizen.  Who is going to forget a decade of that.

What is disappointing is that neither Asmus and Holbrooke shed any light on what are the essential interests of the United States in this conflict and its ending.  And, just because the Georgian President was democratically elected, doesn't mean that he can't (and didn't) do something truly stupid which brought the Russian hammer down.  

by VizierVic (VizierVic@hotmail.com) on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 01:39:12 PM EST
as much as it likes, but it doesn't change the basic equation: The policy has failed. Inevitably so, since the US does not want, cannot afford and will not accept the risk of a hot war with Russia. If you think the JCS are opposed to bombing Iran, ask them what they think about taking on the Bear in his own backyard -- with 3/4th of the regular army tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The parallels with Iraq are striking: Yes, the Clinton administration supported (in a generic way) the idea of rolling back the old Soviet frontiers in the Caucusus and developing an alternative route for Caspian oil -- but not to the insane extent of trying to ram NATO into former Soviet territory -- just as it supported the overthrow of Saddam -- but not to the extent of actually launching an invasion.

It really does take a neocon to convert a rational (if cynical) policy into a complete clusterfuck. And make no mistake: Saakashvili is their creature. If he tried to pull a coup de main in South Ossetia last week (as Israel also tried but also failed to do in Lebanon) you can bet it was on the basis of more than just a wink and a nod from Cheney's little nest of diplomatic saboteurs. And so once again we get to watch the various members of the neocon politburo try to climb back down the long, flimsy limb they've crawled out on.

The depressing thing is that BooMan is right about one thing: the Holbrookes and Asmuses of the world will go on dutifully dancing to the neocon tune, at least in public -- although one really wonders what they think of this latest fiasco in private. I guess being a member of The Establishment (whether of the neocon, realist or liberal internationalist variety) is kinda like being a Jet in West Side Story:

When you're a Jet,
If the spit hits the fan,
You got brothers around,
You're a family man!

by Billmon (billmon@billmon.org) on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 03:55:55 PM EST
Well Billmon...answer me this.

If the neo-cons can't get the hot war that even they do not want, can't they still piggy-back on the 'liberal' establishment's terror at facing the repercussions of this failure and land us deep in 13 days territory?

I do not see rational actors on my stage.  Do you?

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 04:13:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the neo-cons can't get the hot war that even they do not want, can't they still piggy-back on the 'liberal' establishment's terror at facing the repercussions of this failure and land us deep in 13 days territory?

Apparently not, since it seems Putin has quite rationally decided it's time to pull his winnings off the table. And why not? He's gotten everything he could have asked out of this war: Saakashvili humiliated and probably fatally weakened, NATO membership for Georgia blocked for the forseeable future, South Ossetia and Abkhazia effectively annexed, and other neighboring states duly put on notice: the Bear is back in town.

After all, Putin is a KGB realist, not a posturing neocon clown. In fact things have gone so well for the Russians that I almost suspect he set the whole situation up: maybe by sending back channel signals to the Georgians that if they moved to take back South Ossetia the Russians would back down. Or may not. Saakashvili is quite obviously out of his depth (and may not have been calling the shots anyway). It might not have taken any KGB-style statescraft to get him to step into the trap.  

Anyway, I think Gwynn Dyer's take on this whole pseudocrisis is probably the most accurate:

"In six months' time, we probably won't even remember [Saakashvili's] foolish adventure."

But Putin will.

by Billmon (billmon@billmon.org) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Billmon, glad to see you posting again. Hmm, as incisive and penetrating as always. I have such fond memories of the old Whiskey Bar.  Cheers to you - Dongi.

The Neocon clusterfucks are driving the American train right into the muck of a political, economic and moral swamp.  God, help us all.

Down the drain with John McShame.

by Daredevil Don on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

After all, Putin is a KGB realist

A blogger wrote this a while back and I dug it up

Do NOT Mess With An Original Gangsta

As a public service to the President and Vice-President, I'm gonna lay this out for you real simple-like.

DO. NOT. FUCK. AROUND. WITH. VLADIMIR. PUTIN.

Okay?

Now, I know you want to fuck with him, but let's be clear--he ain't like you. Meaning, that for all the tough talk you guys have spit out over the years with the aid of handlers and broadcast transmitters hidden in your suit jackets, this son-of-a-bitch--Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin walked the walk--and probably shot the bullets, and car-batteried the gonads of people who got in his way.

Actually did it, okay?

To you, Mr. President, Putin was in the KGB when it was your daddy's job to see to it that as many members of that organization ended up face-down in Gorky Park with poisoned shivs in their backs. And it was Putin's job to make sure he piano-wired the carotid arteries of anyone trying to poison-shiv his KGB buddies. You ducked conflict. This guy dipped it in his borscht and ate it, happily.

www.groupnewsblog.net/2007/10/do-not-mess-with-original-gangsta.html

by Cee on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 05:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Oui on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 11:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But what are we really doing?  Bush is at the Olympics giving himself a crotch massage with the flag and pretending he's not president.  I don't see any action or even outrage from this admin.
by Tehanu on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:34:59 PM EST
Bush may be taking in some volleyball, but the rest of the government is in crisis mode.

Mr Khalilzad challenged his Russian counterpart, Vitaly Churkin, to answer whether Russia's aim was "the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia".

Mr Churkin replied that it was the US that first raised the prospect of the Georgian President, Mikhail Saakashvili, stepping down, and that it may be "an interesting signal".

"Sometimes there are democratically elected, or semi-democratically elected, leaders who do things that create grave problems for their countries, so sometimes those leaders need to contemplate how useful they have become to their people," Mr Churkin said.

Associated Press:

Vice President Dick Cheney says Russia's military actions in Georgia "must not go unanswered."

Cheney spoke Sunday afternoon with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. "The vice president expressed the United States' solidarity with the Georgian people and their democratically elected government in the face of this threat to Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity," Cheney's press secretary, Lee Ann McBride, said.

Cheney told Saakashvili "Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community," McBride said.

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush is at the Olympics giving himself a crotch massage with the flag

But why should this week be any different from the last eight years?

by Billmon (billmon@billmon.org) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:01:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  For a real reality check..

Check out Operation Brimstone on google. Also a great post on automaticearth blog.

by wildrez on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 02:18:45 PM EST
great analysis, as usual BooMan.

The reality that the left has to face, yet again, is that there is no left in american politics, at least not in elected office. Progressive votes in Congress against imperialism and the military-industrial complex consist of: Barbara Lee. This is a situation where Nader is correct and there really is zero difference between the two parties.

The Four Horsemen of Bushism: War, Corruption, Hypocrisy and Greed

by esquimaux (esquimaux1 at gmail dot com) on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 03:49:17 PM EST
Senate Subcommittee on Near Eastern and South and Central Asian Affairs

Majority Members (Democrats)
Member Name    DC Phone    DC FAX
John F. Kerry (D-MA) [Chair]     202-224-2742     202-224-8525
Christopher J. Dodd (D-CT)     202-224-2823     202-224-1083
Russell D. Feingold (D-WI)     202-224-5323     202-224-2725
Barbara Boxer (D-CA)     202-224-3553     202-224-0454
Benjamin L. Cardin (D-MD)     202-224-4524     202-224-1651

Minority Members (Republicans)
Member Name    DC Phone    DC FAX
Norm Coleman (R-MN) [Ranking Member]     202-224-5641     202-224-1152
Chuck Hagel (R-NE)     202-224-4224     202-224-5213
George Voinovich (R-OH)     202-224-3353     202-228-1382
John A. Barrasso (R-WY)     202-224-6441     202-224-1724

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 03:51:07 PM EST
who are these foot-stamping leftists you and atrios write about?

I must be reading the wrong blogs.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 04:35:56 PM EST
why don't you read the comment threads?

This blog would be a good start.  

I'll have more to say about this going forward, but there are at least two separate issues involved here.

One is the shitty dire straits the Bush administration has led us into (and the Clintonian predicates for that) and all the blame that can be divvied out for it.

The other is the political navigation of this issue.

The two do not easily mix.  And, in fact, if the Left keeps to form, they will shortly despair of any Obama administration as no better than a McCain administration precisely because Obama is not going to look or sound like a good Lefty on U.S./Russian relations.  If he were to do that, he'd quickly find almost the entire foreign policy establishment and the press united against him.  

It's hard to express how invested the Establishment is in our post-war strategy vis-a-vis the former Soviet Union, the Caspian basin, Middle Eastern basing, and so on.  They are not ready to do a reassessment.  And to attempt one in the middle of this campaign would be suicide.  

This is the same kind of reaction from the Left that led to the Betrayus Ad, which highlighted as few things could have, the enormous gulf between the newly libertarian left and the foreign policy establishment.  

by BooMan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 04:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh comments.

I was looking around at atrios, digby, etc and wondering who you were talking about. i didn't realize you meant commenters.

John Mccain Called his wife WHAT??

by brendan on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 05:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Booman, Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying two things that sit very uneasily with each other:

  1.  Getting embroiled in the Caucasus -- from the Clinton years onward -- has been a huge blunder, which among other things put us on a collision course with Russia.  This is bad.

  2.  We are hopelessly stuck on this course, for domestic political reasons, because the Foreign Policy Establishment will will unanimously line up behind a "no backing down" policy, therefore making it politically unviable for Obama to do anything else.  This is regrettable but a reality we -- and most importantly the Obama campaign -- must face.  

To synthesize, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that unless Obama is going to signal a willingness to get into a shooting war (or a proxy war) with Russia, he will lose the election; therefore, he must line up behind Cheney.  In other words, there's no way out.  As much as I respect the critique of Clinton/Bush II policies (or, perhaps, precisely because I agree with that critique) I find the conclusion -- an extension fo the general bedwetting approach that Dems tend to take on all matters "national-security" related -- untenable.  Somebody needs to talk sense here.  

Also, query what the "no backing down" policy amounts to, given that we have no military assets to spare.  Strong words backed up by the might of the U.S.?  Please.  You can't rattle a whiffle-bat and pretend it's a sabre.    

by sdangerfield (sdangerfield@juno.com) on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 06:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree wholeheartedly with your point, Booman.  I also think the chances of this building to a nuclear confrontation -- which is the only thing worth worrying about -- are slim, for the reason you mentioned above.  Assured mutual annihilation for a small piece of nowhere doesn't strike me as a likely American response, and were Cheney to order it, I woulodn't be surprised if one of the military aides were to pistol-whip him.  

As to the politics of it all, this is a time to keep one's head down.  The shit has hit the fan, and it is going to splatter over everyone in the political establishment.  

The key moment will occur when it becomes apparent that the United States are absolutely alone in this conflict.  No friends.  We earned that.

Knut

by Knut Wicksell (b_didnn@hotmail.ca) on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 07:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia will probably not be so stupid as to want to stay and administer Georgia, or what is left of it after it loses further it's control over the two kurdistans on their map.  So it should be all over as soon as the Russians finish dismantling Georgian military hardware.

Time will take care of the immediate problem of US sabre rattling as the war would have more or less died down.  Facts on the ground will win out in the end.  The big question must be whether there can be a replenishment market for "western" arms.
The other question as to whether expansion of NATO serves anybody's interest, should yield an obvious NO.
 

by YY on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 11:48:03 PM EST


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